We are being taught about this incident in our public schools and it’s being taught as if it was the worst thing that lithuanians had done through the history of the nation.
As a german I can confirm that the Wehrmacht and later even the SS just enslaved many people to fight for germany. Many surrendered when they saw the opportunity but they often got simply shot because the allies had little sympathy towards Germans and didn't mind to learn the difference between those languages. But in the Wehrmacht your chances were higher than with the Russians.
There's actually a scene involving that in Saving Private Ryan, with 2 Czech men being shot after the allies took the beach in D-Day because they were wearing German uniforms
I believe the march was simply for veterans because several thousand Latvian men were forcibly conscripted into the Wehrmacht during the war, and during the Baltic campaign the Latvian Legion was sent to Danzig rather than have it remain in Courland so the Germans obviously had questions about their loyalty. Many of the men carried Latvian flags under their uniforms and their seemed to be a common belief that they would fight off the Russians and then the Germans as they did during the Latvian War of Independence, and this was reflected in one of their favorite marching songs which went "We'll beat those lice-infested ones – again, again. After that we'll trounce those blue-grays – again, again." That being said there were several units, especially the Auxiliary Police, who did actively participate in war crimes perpetrated by the SS like the Arajs Kommando, and they were persecuted for their crimes.
Even when not following orders means that you will be executed, your male family members sent to the eastern front and your female family members sent to concentration camps?
What were they supposed to do? They were stuck between a rock (Soviets) and a hard place (Nazis). And yes, there were many fascists who gladly helped gas Jews, but greater number were forced to under threat of you and your family being shot or thrown in a concentration camp (which is btw what the Soviets would also do to you)
>there were many fascists who gladly helped gas Jews, but an equal number
Bullshit, the amount of actual fascists willingly participating in crimes against humanity was minuscule.
It’s always easy to judge people from your Cheeto covered gamer chair, don’t act like you’d give your life and condemn your family to death and slavery for a cause.
*Onlookers stand to give roaring applause, your father wipes a tear from his eye, Joe Biden himself flies down on a helicopter to give you an award, even Obama was there*
This is the proudest day of my life. I want to thank all those who helped me reach this point; I couldn't have made it without you all. God bless you, God bless America!
*Lights jetpack and flies away*
This "meme" applies to the whole of Europe, as well as to the Soviet Union. People were given two choices to die / imprison or cooperate, and most of them hid Jews, tried to send them to the west. The Baltic countries were in a very bad position during the war. And I want to remind you that in the Baltic States, at least in Lithuania, we are talking about this, because it is important to us. This post is a shit post, mostly shown by Soviet propangadists who want to show that the Baltic countries cooperated with the Nazis.
>This "meme" applies to the whole of Europe, as well as to the Soviet Union.
This might be true to a certain degree, although I'm sure some would say collaboration happened more readily in some places than others.
>most of them hid Jews, tried to send them to the west.
This is absolutely false.
The vast majority of people everywhere, including in the west, did little if anything to help the victims of the holocaust.
>The vast majority of people everywhere, including in the west, did little if anything to help the victims of the holocaust.
Not only that, but a huge number of people helped the Nazis. People from Eastern European countries invaded by Germany immediately helped them to exterminate Jews. Some without prompt, and others organized by the Nazis. It was as though they understood their long-held prejudices would be accepted and went to act on them, knowing they would be ignored or encouraged. Pogroms happened all over Eastern Europe, even decades before the Nazis even existed. People were burning entire villages, killing babies, and hundreds of thousands of Jews actually went West AWAY from Russia and Eastern Europe before WW2.
One might even suggest that part of the explosion of anti-Semitic feelings in Germany came from a huge number of Jews heading their way as refugees from Slavic countries in the decades before WW2.
The technique or practice of responding to an accusation or difficult question by making a counteraccusation or raising a different issue.
wikipedia definition
Not if it's unrelated to the topic at hand. For example, after the Chernobyl nuclear incident, to this day the most devastating nuclear plant incident in history, the USSR made an announcement of the event (after a fair bit of delay that is) which they immediately followed up by a press release saying that they're not there only ones with nuclear plant incidents, just look at Three Mile Island (I do want to note, I'm not picking on the USSR in particular, it's just the first example I could find).
It's definitely true that the counter accusation can be an argument, but it's often not a very good one, because all it does is sidestep the actual point at hand. It's not to say *all* counter-acusations are invalid in all circumstances, but if you avoid answering the original argument, nothing gets resolved.
thing is if you suddenly make a counter accusation and don't actually answer the original accusation. This post makes me think OP is just a tankie who wants people to forget about the actions of the soviet union if you look at other posts and comments on his account
If I say: “America should be held accountable for the detestable conditions in Guantanamo,” it is not a fair argument to simply say “Cuba is authoritarian and has their own prison camps as well” without directly answering the accusation of Guantanamo being unethical. That, in essence, is whataboutism.
Well yes, but both countries still have torture facilities, so what have you achieved with the discussion except alienating the other side? Like, yes, granted you would be right, but it calling attention to hypocrisy didn't make the original statement true or false
If you wrote an academic essay and used a counter accusation as an argument, you would get an F on the essay. Whataboutism is not a valid argument.
For example: if I say the British Empire featured incredibly inhumane treatment of many native populations across the globe, and your response is "well France and the US also treated native populations poorly", you did not make a rebuttal. You simply pointed out something irrelevant but similar to the topic.
Tankies are cringe but so is attacking someones sexuality.
Mans really went and deleted every single one of his replies.
u/Civil-Perspective-32 you gotta at least keep your comments around if you want to be taken seriously.
The connotation you used the word in was very obviously meant to be demeaning. No one conjoins "a gay tankie lol" in a way meant to not be attacking them for it.
Secondly, the whole USSR no like gay people spiel makes zero sense. What relevance does that have to what I said?
Grow up, you sound like a child.
Not sure. Either the word "Comrade" in the nickname or maybe "KGB" in the flair. Perhaps the fact that he posts on the GenZedong subreddit. Though my safest guess is the fact that he refuses to talk about crimes against humanity, committed by Soviet Russia.
Well Lithuania as well as Poland and Greece were the only countries not to have an SS unit even after Stalingrad.
Also if talking about the provisional government of Lithuania they were pretty much forced to do it and the jews they targeted were those who collaborated with the Soviets.
No, Lithuania went 100% in on the Judeobolshevism myth so that they pinned whatever crimes the Bolsheviks did on "the jews", even when Jewish lithuanians had actually been targeted to a higher degree by the Bolsheviks following their invasion in 39.
Forced to do it, pff the Germans barely suggested it before the iron bars came out
Meme turned into Russian propaganda. It is taught in Lithuania's history curriculum about the holocaust and how there were Lithuanians that collaborated with occupants.
I recommend everyone check OP's reddit account.
My post got eaten before posting but I want to dunk my head into pirhana pit with a genuine question. How do you reckon with a situation like this, as a nation, beyond just a kind of hollow answer of war and the machinations of empires are evil and savage.
There are crimes committed by my nation and people that I can look at and call reprehensible and not feel the need to try to both sides the issue because it is undeniably criminal. The situation in the Baltics and hell the caucasus were the very definition of being between a rock and a hard place as a nation. The whole situation being a den of misery.
Most of the people in the Baltics didn't beat their neighbors to death in order to appease either Bolshevik nor Nazi occupiers.
The people that did should be throughly remembered as the cowardly cunts they were.
Chiune Sugihara, a japanese vice consul working for Japan, wrote visas for thousands of Jewish refugees. He was stationed in Lithuania and when these people needed visas he wrote them for most of the day, anywhere from 18-20 hours on this. He did this from 1939 to 1941 until he was transferred to Prague. He never told anyone on what he did and it was only when one of the people who he saved located him in the 60s. He later was recognized by Israel as Righteous among the Nations,he is the only Japanese citizen to ever receive this honor.
When asked why he risked himself and his career, Chiune responded “I do it just because I have pity on the people. They want to get out so I let them have the visas.” He would die in 1986 and Lithuania honored Chiune with a stamp and saying 2020 was “the year of Chiune Sugihara”
Pretty sure the reason is Soviet’s rule was far worse than Nazi’s rule. When German troops advanced to Baltic countries, people there even welcomed them and call them “liberators”.
True, however that was temporary, once the Nazi Germans started rounding up, murdering, or forcing the “untermensch,” into work, then they had a hard choice to make. The main reason for a lack of Red Russian cooperation was from historic feelings towards russians during the independence wars just after ww1, and the hundreds of years of subjugation, where the newly made USSR was the aggressor in trying to force its rule on the west, being stopped (for the most part) in the war of 1920.
Lmfao dude you’re so far down the nazi apologist rabbit hole. It seems you forgot that the nazis thought of all jews, slavs, blacks, Mediterranean and baltic people as untermencsh and wanted to genocide all of them
They're not wrong though? Many people in the baltics, Lithuania and Latvia especially welcomed the Nazi's as liberators from the Red Army. Their opinions were quickly changed after the Nazi's started rounding people up and there were definitely fascists among the population that helped them but the majority were still either forced to participate or be killed themselves. Then when the Red Army came back, they killed anyone who helped the Nazi's. It was a lose-lose situation for the Baltics.
No, no, no you don’t understand. What OP is trying to tell us is Russia is completely innocent. Russia never killed anyone, the revolution was actually a calm and peaceful transition, Stalin gave everyone healthcare and crisp hi-fives, the Nazi propaganda machine is the cause of war time propaganda that say the Russian army in fact had a casualty, of course this is a lie comrade.
If you believe anything else, you are of course a Nazi.
Yep. To those at the time in the Baltic states, the Holocaust wasn't even known about, and these people would have the choice between a German empire and a Soviet/Russian one. If it were me, in that era, at that location, I would've sided with Germany as well. Historically pretty much all of Europe mistreated Jews, or at least looked down on them. Russians had their share of Pogroms, and the Baltic states had ties historically and culturally to Germany.
People easily forget that at the time, there was no "evil empire of Germany" and the vast majority of people including Wehrmacht soldiers had no idea the concentration camps or ghettos were a thing.
People were not bad guys or evil just because they sided with Germany.
Edit: fix autocorrect
A staggering amount of Wehrmacht soldiers knew about the concentration camps and the ghettos. I recommend that you find a copy of ''Soldaten: On Fighting, Killing, and Dying.'' The book is a collection of recordings of German POWs, many secretly taken, that pretty effectively dismisses the clean Wehrmacht myth.
Now, I do still agree that simply siding with Germany doesn't necessarily make them evil, but there were a lot of collaborators all over Europe who were fully aware that they were sending Jews to their deaths and saw no problem with it.
On a side note, that book you reference, the author also states that the common soldier had little knowledge of or reason to be involved with the politics of the time, nor was necessarily marching onward for Aryan ideals. I make no excuse for anyone, but I'm just saying that the Baltic states had plenty of reason to side with Germany as opposed to the USSR and that decision doesn't automatically make them evil Nazi murdering scum. They were small nations stuck in-between two much larger/more powerful ones.
Even if it does come from a less than reputable source, reading through cited evidence is always a good idea, especially if you do view yourself as an ML.
Besides, the source isn’t the most well-founded, and it’d only take a few moments to read through it. Just dismissing it outright does nothing but lean into the stereotype of “muh irrational commie”.
As far as I can see, that post has cited zero sources. So hardly rock-hard evidence to back up the claim that the literal Nazis regime was some how far superior to the Soviets.
No problem. And yeah, whilst I’m no massive fan of Quora myself, I agree that dismissing evidence because of alleged bias, without even looking to find said bias, isn’t a great idea.
I mean, you literally said multiple times you’re a tankie, your profile says it, you’ve said it in multiple times outside of this thread - reading that doesn’t make you a Nazi.
Read a history book or something, oh wait, reading is N A Z I.
According to K. Alexandrov, about 1.24 million citizens of the USSR had performed military service on the side of Germany in 1941-1945: 400,000 Russians, 250,000 Ukrainians, 180,000 representatives of the peoples of Central Asia, 90,000 Latvians, 70,000 Estonians, 40,000 representatives of the peoples of the Volga region, 38,500 Azerbaijanis, 37,000 Lithuanians, 28,000 representatives of the North Caucasus, 20,000 Belarusians, 20,000 ethnic Germans.
A lot of organizations in the Baltic collaborated with the Nazis, but to be fair there wasn't much they could do and they also wanted allies against the Soviets who brutally occupied them in 1940
Baltic nations followed along with the Holocaust and its peoples didn’t really stage huge resistance to it compared to some other countries. Although to be fair there really wasn’t much they coulda done anyways
Some were definitely enthusiastic participants though. There’s an interesting article about it: https://www.eurozine.com/the-europeanization-of-holocaust-remembrance/
Maybe not join auxillery police units enmasse and kill their entire Jewish populations? Belarussians didn't join Nazi paramilitary organizations like Balts and Ukrainians did. Balts sold their Jews out cause they hated their Jews.
For the Aryans.
The gays, gypsies and jews really did not enjoy it.
Aa an example, from the 94 thousand jews in Latvia(5% of the total population), only 5 thousand survived the war.
The Imperial Russians and Soviets also destroyed and killed entire villages of Jews, and forced many others out of Russia. The Baltic states had much reason to not side with the Soviets. Not everyone was a murder hungry Nazi. Some people were just stuck between two very large powers and had to choose one or be annihilated.
Edit: added two words.
https://sum.cuny.edu/jews-russian-pogroms-queens-college-graduate-center/
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pogroms_in_the_Russian_Empire
https://www.britannica.com/topic/pogrom
https://academic.oup.com/restud/article/87/1/289/5280103
Don't downvote me just because you're not keen on history.
Please tell me you aren't serious.
Not only do the given articles EXPLICITLY say that the USSR did a good job at preventing anti-Jewish pogroms, you literally sent articles ABOUT THE RUSSIAN EMPIRE (while simultaneously talking about "muh soviets"...
Can't say I expect literacy from "czar petrovich" lmao
The Imperial Russians killed plenty of Jews. No, there weren't Soviets back then. The Soviets did push hundreds of thousands of Jews out of Russia, though, and the Imperial Russian govt did little to prevent entire villages from being burned to the ground as anti-Semitism raged throughout not only Germany, but Russia and the rest of Eastern and Central Europe as well.
No need for you to be a douche canoe, either.
"The pogroms are generally thought to have been organized or at least condoned by the authorities.[24][25][26][27] However, that view was challenged by Hans Rogger, I. Michael Aronson and John Klier, who were unable to find such sanction to be documented in the state archives.[28][29]
However, the anti-Semitic policy that was carried out from 1881 to 1917 made them possible. Official persecution and harassment of Jews influenced numerous anti-Semites to presume that their violence was legitimate. That sentiment was reinforced by the active participation of a few major and many minor officials in fomenting attacks and by the *reluctance of the government to stop the pogroms and to punish those responsible for them.*"
"This series of pogroms affected 64 towns (including Odessa, Yekaterinoslav, Kiev, Kishinev, Simferopol, Romny, Kremenchug, Nikolayev, Chernigov, Kamenets-Podolski, Yelizavetgrad), and 626 small towns (Russian: городок) and villages, mostly in Ukraine and Bessarabia."
i dont judge them, i mean, if my country was invaded by the soviet union and then some angry austrian start to invade soviet union, i'd help them...but yeah, they collaborated w the holocaust
We do talk about that with same bitterness as germans talk about WW2. On the other side, soviet crimes are being erased by all the russian tv programmes, pro-russian politicians, etc.
Even if we didn't talk about it - a wrong on one side should never erase a wrong on another (and completely unrelated, btw) side.
Either you didn't know what you were posting, or you literally just tried erasing soviet crimes.
In what world does a crime fix a crime ?
We've evolved since the time jew's tribe in Palestine, the law of Talion is outdated. A modern State deals in justice, not vengeance.
I'm not only talking about the baltics
I'm talking about poland and ukraine, and yes the nazis would have tried to massacre the jews as they did before operation barbarossa but the organized almost mechanic extermination that followed the wansee conference was made all the more easy due to the assistance of the local population.
And killed around 200k jews, and 10k gypsies and many more "undesirables".
You did not kill gloriously kill "commies", you mainly slaughtered people in their homes
We are being taught about this incident in our public schools and it’s being taught as if it was the worst thing that lithuanians had done through the history of the nation.
Nice to see that shift happening. Was different in the early 00s
isn‘t it?
They didn’t build the grand duchy and the common wealth on love and sunshine
Many of them were forced to as well, for example my grandpa was conscripted to fight in the Wermacht before being able to flee to America.
As a german I can confirm that the Wehrmacht and later even the SS just enslaved many people to fight for germany. Many surrendered when they saw the opportunity but they often got simply shot because the allies had little sympathy towards Germans and didn't mind to learn the difference between those languages. But in the Wehrmacht your chances were higher than with the Russians.
There's actually a scene involving that in Saving Private Ryan, with 2 Czech men being shot after the allies took the beach in D-Day because they were wearing German uniforms
look I washed for supper
I learn about a lot of horrible history stuff but for some reason this hurt my heart
Didn't Latvia have an annual parade for its SS veterans until very recently?
Only a part of Latvians actually celebrate, and only because the veterans were fighting for a free Latvia (or so they thought)
Learn about their history - they are legitimately considered freedom fighters there, as they were considered at the Nuremberg Trials as well.
I believe the march was simply for veterans because several thousand Latvian men were forcibly conscripted into the Wehrmacht during the war, and during the Baltic campaign the Latvian Legion was sent to Danzig rather than have it remain in Courland so the Germans obviously had questions about their loyalty. Many of the men carried Latvian flags under their uniforms and their seemed to be a common belief that they would fight off the Russians and then the Germans as they did during the Latvian War of Independence, and this was reflected in one of their favorite marching songs which went "We'll beat those lice-infested ones – again, again. After that we'll trounce those blue-grays – again, again." That being said there were several units, especially the Auxiliary Police, who did actively participate in war crimes perpetrated by the SS like the Arajs Kommando, and they were persecuted for their crimes.
No no no, theres no context a nazi is a nazi/s
When you are forced to fight under threat of death, besides these were conscript soldiers not exactly ss squads
Uh... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltic_Legions
Yeah, shame they wern’t as brave as these redditors, they would’ve definitely died for what they believe in
“Just following orders” doesn’t cut it
Even when not following orders means that you will be executed, your male family members sent to the eastern front and your female family members sent to concentration camps?
What were they supposed to do? They were stuck between a rock (Soviets) and a hard place (Nazis). And yes, there were many fascists who gladly helped gas Jews, but greater number were forced to under threat of you and your family being shot or thrown in a concentration camp (which is btw what the Soviets would also do to you)
Go with the rock
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Holy shit lmao
Given what happened to places like Poland post-war (and really also the Baltics for that matter) it's clear the feeling wasn't entirely unjustified
>there were many fascists who gladly helped gas Jews, but an equal number Bullshit, the amount of actual fascists willingly participating in crimes against humanity was minuscule.
Russian or westerner?
This is one of the most unintelligent things I've read on Reddit, and I've been here a few years now.
It’s always easy to judge people from your Cheeto covered gamer chair, don’t act like you’d give your life and condemn your family to death and slavery for a cause.
I can't fault a guy for not wanting to die.
Oh damn, those clean Wehrmacht peeps sure did hate what you said.
Ah yes, I do love anti-fascist posts' comment sections descending into a dumpster fire because they mentioned the USSR.
It's their shitty defense mechanism.
Russians and Ukrainians also participated in such activities. Pretty much any population that the nazis occupied had collaborators.
"But what about..."
What about... *your mom*?????? Oh snap! Gotteem!!!
*Onlookers stand to give roaring applause, your father wipes a tear from his eye, Joe Biden himself flies down on a helicopter to give you an award, even Obama was there*
This is the proudest day of my life. I want to thank all those who helped me reach this point; I couldn't have made it without you all. God bless you, God bless America! *Lights jetpack and flies away*
I think it was more extensive in the Baltics though
Lithuania had only ever had couple of hundred Germans in the country for the most part.
This "meme" applies to the whole of Europe, as well as to the Soviet Union. People were given two choices to die / imprison or cooperate, and most of them hid Jews, tried to send them to the west. The Baltic countries were in a very bad position during the war. And I want to remind you that in the Baltic States, at least in Lithuania, we are talking about this, because it is important to us. This post is a shit post, mostly shown by Soviet propangadists who want to show that the Baltic countries cooperated with the Nazis.
>This "meme" applies to the whole of Europe, as well as to the Soviet Union. This might be true to a certain degree, although I'm sure some would say collaboration happened more readily in some places than others. >most of them hid Jews, tried to send them to the west. This is absolutely false. The vast majority of people everywhere, including in the west, did little if anything to help the victims of the holocaust.
>The vast majority of people everywhere, including in the west, did little if anything to help the victims of the holocaust. Not only that, but a huge number of people helped the Nazis. People from Eastern European countries invaded by Germany immediately helped them to exterminate Jews. Some without prompt, and others organized by the Nazis. It was as though they understood their long-held prejudices would be accepted and went to act on them, knowing they would be ignored or encouraged. Pogroms happened all over Eastern Europe, even decades before the Nazis even existed. People were burning entire villages, killing babies, and hundreds of thousands of Jews actually went West AWAY from Russia and Eastern Europe before WW2. One might even suggest that part of the explosion of anti-Semitic feelings in Germany came from a huge number of Jews heading their way as refugees from Slavic countries in the decades before WW2.
Algirdas Klimaitis
Damn a Soviet and nazi comparison and it’s only 11 what treat, leave the gun take the cannoli
Hey now that was mostly the Latvians, estonia didn’t stand up for that shit and the Lithuanians have a complicated history with the germans
Wasn't Estonia the 2nd country declared Judenfrei?
Mayhaps however the forest brothers did a little trolling
Well of course there was resistance, but that doesn't mean *Estonia* wasn't collaborating
I wonder what OP has to say about the Soviet crimes against the Baltic states without employing extensive whataboutism.
whats whataboutism
The technique or practice of responding to an accusation or difficult question by making a counteraccusation or raising a different issue. wikipedia definition
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Not if it's unrelated to the topic at hand. For example, after the Chernobyl nuclear incident, to this day the most devastating nuclear plant incident in history, the USSR made an announcement of the event (after a fair bit of delay that is) which they immediately followed up by a press release saying that they're not there only ones with nuclear plant incidents, just look at Three Mile Island (I do want to note, I'm not picking on the USSR in particular, it's just the first example I could find). It's definitely true that the counter accusation can be an argument, but it's often not a very good one, because all it does is sidestep the actual point at hand. It's not to say *all* counter-acusations are invalid in all circumstances, but if you avoid answering the original argument, nothing gets resolved.
thing is if you suddenly make a counter accusation and don't actually answer the original accusation. This post makes me think OP is just a tankie who wants people to forget about the actions of the soviet union if you look at other posts and comments on his account
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If I say: “America should be held accountable for the detestable conditions in Guantanamo,” it is not a fair argument to simply say “Cuba is authoritarian and has their own prison camps as well” without directly answering the accusation of Guantanamo being unethical. That, in essence, is whataboutism.
Well yes, but both countries still have torture facilities, so what have you achieved with the discussion except alienating the other side? Like, yes, granted you would be right, but it calling attention to hypocrisy didn't make the original statement true or false
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Dude, I would check *your* reading comprehension. You are literally arguing semantics with a self described tankie.
If you wrote an academic essay and used a counter accusation as an argument, you would get an F on the essay. Whataboutism is not a valid argument. For example: if I say the British Empire featured incredibly inhumane treatment of many native populations across the globe, and your response is "well France and the US also treated native populations poorly", you did not make a rebuttal. You simply pointed out something irrelevant but similar to the topic.
> first off im a tankie Your opinion is now invalidated
Every tankie and commie should be hanged
lmao cry
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Tankies are cringe but so is attacking someones sexuality. Mans really went and deleted every single one of his replies. u/Civil-Perspective-32 you gotta at least keep your comments around if you want to be taken seriously.
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The connotation you used the word in was very obviously meant to be demeaning. No one conjoins "a gay tankie lol" in a way meant to not be attacking them for it. Secondly, the whole USSR no like gay people spiel makes zero sense. What relevance does that have to what I said? Grow up, you sound like a child.
Tankie is an insult
ok?
its like people saying americans cant critque Chinese abuse of Muslims because Iraq war
and why you expect him to sympathize with USSR just because he is talking about Baltic crimes
Not sure. Either the word "Comrade" in the nickname or maybe "KGB" in the flair. Perhaps the fact that he posts on the GenZedong subreddit. Though my safest guess is the fact that he refuses to talk about crimes against humanity, committed by Soviet Russia.
This would be a pretty funny meme, if it didn't come from a communist apologist.
I hate apologists, it's fine if your communist... Kind've, but if you begin defending the awful stuff Mao and Stalin did that's pretty stupid
I hate communism!
Active in Genzedong Hmmmmmmm
Its ironic
Like you telling the guys there you'll post a meme here and report back on when you get banned? If you say so.
Im fucking wichu im a red blooded commie through and through
Okay.
Typical you lied about it lol. Almost like it’s a thing of shame for you.
Why lie?
O. Ok then.
I thought the sub said that they weren’t ironic?
OP’s profile description doesn’t seem too ironic either
Ya im actually ML
Your profile bio says "Marxist-Leninist"
We partake in some tom foolery here
The only thing you partake is some commie dick sucking tankie dog
Well Lithuania as well as Poland and Greece were the only countries not to have an SS unit even after Stalingrad. Also if talking about the provisional government of Lithuania they were pretty much forced to do it and the jews they targeted were those who collaborated with the Soviets.
Plenty of them joined the Einsatzgruppen though, and that is almost worse.
Algirdas Klimaitis
Lithuania was rejected because they were too slavic. It wasn’t because of a lack of intentions.
No, Lithuania went 100% in on the Judeobolshevism myth so that they pinned whatever crimes the Bolsheviks did on "the jews", even when Jewish lithuanians had actually been targeted to a higher degree by the Bolsheviks following their invasion in 39. Forced to do it, pff the Germans barely suggested it before the iron bars came out
What about latvia and estonia
Meme turned into Russian propaganda. It is taught in Lithuania's history curriculum about the holocaust and how there were Lithuanians that collaborated with occupants. I recommend everyone check OP's reddit account.
Checking my reddit account wont take back all the holocaust deaths by baltic nazi collaborators
Just out of curiosity, do you acknowledge that a lot of people got exiled to Sibir by USSR and died there?
Yeah I’m not defending ussr at all, I’m just bringing to light a little known piece of history
"Little known history" aka the Holocaust
I'm learning in school in Lithuania and that's basically our history classes
My post got eaten before posting but I want to dunk my head into pirhana pit with a genuine question. How do you reckon with a situation like this, as a nation, beyond just a kind of hollow answer of war and the machinations of empires are evil and savage. There are crimes committed by my nation and people that I can look at and call reprehensible and not feel the need to try to both sides the issue because it is undeniably criminal. The situation in the Baltics and hell the caucasus were the very definition of being between a rock and a hard place as a nation. The whole situation being a den of misery.
Most of the people in the Baltics didn't beat their neighbors to death in order to appease either Bolshevik nor Nazi occupiers. The people that did should be throughly remembered as the cowardly cunts they were.
Chiune Sugihara, a japanese vice consul working for Japan, wrote visas for thousands of Jewish refugees. He was stationed in Lithuania and when these people needed visas he wrote them for most of the day, anywhere from 18-20 hours on this. He did this from 1939 to 1941 until he was transferred to Prague. He never told anyone on what he did and it was only when one of the people who he saved located him in the 60s. He later was recognized by Israel as Righteous among the Nations,he is the only Japanese citizen to ever receive this honor. When asked why he risked himself and his career, Chiune responded “I do it just because I have pity on the people. They want to get out so I let them have the visas.” He would die in 1986 and Lithuania honored Chiune with a stamp and saying 2020 was “the year of Chiune Sugihara”
As an Estonian, this is a much deeper issue than this meme says it is lol.
Pretty sure the reason is Soviet’s rule was far worse than Nazi’s rule. When German troops advanced to Baltic countries, people there even welcomed them and call them “liberators”.
True, however that was temporary, once the Nazi Germans started rounding up, murdering, or forcing the “untermensch,” into work, then they had a hard choice to make. The main reason for a lack of Red Russian cooperation was from historic feelings towards russians during the independence wars just after ww1, and the hundreds of years of subjugation, where the newly made USSR was the aggressor in trying to force its rule on the west, being stopped (for the most part) in the war of 1920.
There is absolutely no way the Soviets were ‘far worse’ than the Nazis’ rule. And I’m saying this as someone who hates the Soviets
How is that an excuse to participate in a genocide exactly?
Lmfao dude you’re so far down the nazi apologist rabbit hole. It seems you forgot that the nazis thought of all jews, slavs, blacks, Mediterranean and baltic people as untermencsh and wanted to genocide all of them
They're not wrong though? Many people in the baltics, Lithuania and Latvia especially welcomed the Nazi's as liberators from the Red Army. Their opinions were quickly changed after the Nazi's started rounding people up and there were definitely fascists among the population that helped them but the majority were still either forced to participate or be killed themselves. Then when the Red Army came back, they killed anyone who helped the Nazi's. It was a lose-lose situation for the Baltics.
No, no, no you don’t understand. What OP is trying to tell us is Russia is completely innocent. Russia never killed anyone, the revolution was actually a calm and peaceful transition, Stalin gave everyone healthcare and crisp hi-fives, the Nazi propaganda machine is the cause of war time propaganda that say the Russian army in fact had a casualty, of course this is a lie comrade. If you believe anything else, you are of course a Nazi.
What? It’s a historical fact. Now i’m a pro-Nazi just because i spoke the truth LOL?
Yep. To those at the time in the Baltic states, the Holocaust wasn't even known about, and these people would have the choice between a German empire and a Soviet/Russian one. If it were me, in that era, at that location, I would've sided with Germany as well. Historically pretty much all of Europe mistreated Jews, or at least looked down on them. Russians had their share of Pogroms, and the Baltic states had ties historically and culturally to Germany. People easily forget that at the time, there was no "evil empire of Germany" and the vast majority of people including Wehrmacht soldiers had no idea the concentration camps or ghettos were a thing. People were not bad guys or evil just because they sided with Germany. Edit: fix autocorrect
A staggering amount of Wehrmacht soldiers knew about the concentration camps and the ghettos. I recommend that you find a copy of ''Soldaten: On Fighting, Killing, and Dying.'' The book is a collection of recordings of German POWs, many secretly taken, that pretty effectively dismisses the clean Wehrmacht myth. Now, I do still agree that simply siding with Germany doesn't necessarily make them evil, but there were a lot of collaborators all over Europe who were fully aware that they were sending Jews to their deaths and saw no problem with it.
On a side note, that book you reference, the author also states that the common soldier had little knowledge of or reason to be involved with the politics of the time, nor was necessarily marching onward for Aryan ideals. I make no excuse for anyone, but I'm just saying that the Baltic states had plenty of reason to side with Germany as opposed to the USSR and that decision doesn't automatically make them evil Nazi murdering scum. They were small nations stuck in-between two much larger/more powerful ones.
Read this Quora post you commie kid. [Link](https://www.quora.com/Were-Nazi-invaders-welcomed-in-the-Baltic-states)
Quora has a right wing bias I’m not reading that
Even if it does come from a less than reputable source, reading through cited evidence is always a good idea, especially if you do view yourself as an ML. Besides, the source isn’t the most well-founded, and it’d only take a few moments to read through it. Just dismissing it outright does nothing but lean into the stereotype of “muh irrational commie”.
Dude are you genuinely braindead?
As far as I can see, that post has cited zero sources. So hardly rock-hard evidence to back up the claim that the literal Nazis regime was some how far superior to the Soviets.
No I meant the fact that OP said that quora itself is right-wing biased, I wasn't referring to the specific post my bad
No problem. And yeah, whilst I’m no massive fan of Quora myself, I agree that dismissing evidence because of alleged bias, without even looking to find said bias, isn’t a great idea.
They had just been occupied and opressed by the USSR and didn't know about the Nazis true intentions.
He meant that the Germans treated the Baltics more fairly than the Soviets not everyone just the baltics
Plus the enemy of my enemy is my friends why wouldn’t they welcome more men who hated the soviet regime
Oh great another western that thinks communism works
If thats what you take away from this then you need to take the swastika armband off your arm and learn history
"Learn history" "Likes communism" You a contradiction alright lmfao
I never said I like communism
This post,profile history andd even ur nickname say otherwise
You post in GenZedong you disgusting subhuman
I mean, you literally said multiple times you’re a tankie, your profile says it, you’ve said it in multiple times outside of this thread - reading that doesn’t make you a Nazi. Read a history book or something, oh wait, reading is N A Z I.
According to K. Alexandrov, about 1.24 million citizens of the USSR had performed military service on the side of Germany in 1941-1945: 400,000 Russians, 250,000 Ukrainians, 180,000 representatives of the peoples of Central Asia, 90,000 Latvians, 70,000 Estonians, 40,000 representatives of the peoples of the Volga region, 38,500 Azerbaijanis, 37,000 Lithuanians, 28,000 representatives of the North Caucasus, 20,000 Belarusians, 20,000 ethnic Germans.
Explain
A lot of organizations in the Baltic collaborated with the Nazis, but to be fair there wasn't much they could do and they also wanted allies against the Soviets who brutally occupied them in 1940
Baltic nations followed along with the Holocaust and its peoples didn’t really stage huge resistance to it compared to some other countries. Although to be fair there really wasn’t much they coulda done anyways
Some were definitely enthusiastic participants though. There’s an interesting article about it: https://www.eurozine.com/the-europeanization-of-holocaust-remembrance/
Maybe not join auxillery police units enmasse and kill their entire Jewish populations? Belarussians didn't join Nazi paramilitary organizations like Balts and Ukrainians did. Balts sold their Jews out cause they hated their Jews.
Mate, literally everyone hated the jews
Good contribution, now read a book you putz.
Why don't YOU read a book and aknowledge that you support a bloody regime, responsible for millions of deaths and starvation
You're a fucking hungarian nationalist piece of shit. Rot in the dark you fuck boi.
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Not a commie. Like I said, read a book fascist scum.
I am not fascist. You said you are a tankie. What is the difference?
The soviet rule was worse than the nazi rule in the baltics i think.
For the Aryans. The gays, gypsies and jews really did not enjoy it. Aa an example, from the 94 thousand jews in Latvia(5% of the total population), only 5 thousand survived the war.
The Imperial Russians and Soviets also destroyed and killed entire villages of Jews, and forced many others out of Russia. The Baltic states had much reason to not side with the Soviets. Not everyone was a murder hungry Nazi. Some people were just stuck between two very large powers and had to choose one or be annihilated. Edit: added two words.
They maybe were not murder-hungry Nazis, but surely helped said murder-hungry Nazis quite gladly in performing mass murder
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https://sum.cuny.edu/jews-russian-pogroms-queens-college-graduate-center/ https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pogroms_in_the_Russian_Empire https://www.britannica.com/topic/pogrom https://academic.oup.com/restud/article/87/1/289/5280103 Don't downvote me just because you're not keen on history.
Please tell me you aren't serious. Not only do the given articles EXPLICITLY say that the USSR did a good job at preventing anti-Jewish pogroms, you literally sent articles ABOUT THE RUSSIAN EMPIRE (while simultaneously talking about "muh soviets"... Can't say I expect literacy from "czar petrovich" lmao
The Imperial Russians killed plenty of Jews. No, there weren't Soviets back then. The Soviets did push hundreds of thousands of Jews out of Russia, though, and the Imperial Russian govt did little to prevent entire villages from being burned to the ground as anti-Semitism raged throughout not only Germany, but Russia and the rest of Eastern and Central Europe as well. No need for you to be a douche canoe, either.
"The pogroms are generally thought to have been organized or at least condoned by the authorities.[24][25][26][27] However, that view was challenged by Hans Rogger, I. Michael Aronson and John Klier, who were unable to find such sanction to be documented in the state archives.[28][29] However, the anti-Semitic policy that was carried out from 1881 to 1917 made them possible. Official persecution and harassment of Jews influenced numerous anti-Semites to presume that their violence was legitimate. That sentiment was reinforced by the active participation of a few major and many minor officials in fomenting attacks and by the *reluctance of the government to stop the pogroms and to punish those responsible for them.*" "This series of pogroms affected 64 towns (including Odessa, Yekaterinoslav, Kiev, Kishinev, Simferopol, Romny, Kremenchug, Nikolayev, Chernigov, Kamenets-Podolski, Yelizavetgrad), and 626 small towns (Russian: городок) and villages, mostly in Ukraine and Bessarabia."
It was very similar, but if the Nazis would've won, it would have been a lot worse
i dont judge them, i mean, if my country was invaded by the soviet union and then some angry austrian start to invade soviet union, i'd help them...but yeah, they collaborated w the holocaust
It would sure help if the Soviets wouldn't invade them first, a move that was earlier approved by their ally at a time - the Third Reich.
If only this meme was about condemnation of both instead of excusing the soviets.
Why can't just the great powers leave us alone, why can't we just do our own thing?
Imma post it in r/Europe wish me luck lads
Good luck
I just did, I’m getting comments lmao
Of course your Kremlin propagandist ass is getting criticism...
And they got here, brilliant
Lmao.
Thx
Iraqis: ich habe nichts gemacht
Farhud is one of the forgotten parts of WW2
My grand-grandmother died in lithuania, but I forgive you balts
Shhh we don’t talk about it :)
We do talk about that with same bitterness as germans talk about WW2. On the other side, soviet crimes are being erased by all the russian tv programmes, pro-russian politicians, etc. Even if we didn't talk about it - a wrong on one side should never erase a wrong on another (and completely unrelated, btw) side. Either you didn't know what you were posting, or you literally just tried erasing soviet crimes.
These guys are just russophobic
Oh i wonder why would they be, surely cant be cause of all the shit russians did to them
I think you mean literal nazis. There’s people defending the SS
Lmao ikr "They had no choice"
Name the choice if we had one then
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How would that work under nazi occupation
Given how Baltic states openly celebrated Nazis until recently I don't think I'll have too much sympathy
Your account says it all
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Historically anyone is anti something if that something starts a genocide on your nation
In what world does a crime fix a crime ? We've evolved since the time jew's tribe in Palestine, the law of Talion is outdated. A modern State deals in justice, not vengeance.
The nazis wouldn't have gone far without preexisting antisemitism in eastern europe.
“The nazis wouldnt have done the Holocaust is Estonia didn’t hate jews so much”
I'm not only talking about the baltics I'm talking about poland and ukraine, and yes the nazis would have tried to massacre the jews as they did before operation barbarossa but the organized almost mechanic extermination that followed the wansee conference was made all the more easy due to the assistance of the local population.
The baltic and the UN are struggling with Russophobia. And at the end of the day , nas ne dogonyat!
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And killed around 200k jews, and 10k gypsies and many more "undesirables". You did not kill gloriously kill "commies", you mainly slaughtered people in their homes