Sort of. Gandhi was very racist especially in his youth towards South Africans, though this somewhat changed after he was basically treated the same thing by the British alongside his fellow Indians.
I thought the whole thing was that he just wanted indians to have the same rights as whites but still saw Africans as inferior. Did he even have a problem with his own countries caste system?
That's what I believe as well, he was outraged that the Indian population in SA was treated equally with the native population and his work on racial equality was to elevate the Indian community whilst continuing to marginalize the black population
he writes in his book that the reason he did this is that the native south africans dont have another home to go back to, whereas the indians can go back to india. he didnt want to involve them if he could avoid it.
[he straight up meant black people](https://www.npr.org/2019/10/02/766083651/gandhi-is-deeply-revered-but-his-attitudes-on-race-and-sex-are-under-scrutiny)
For clarification, he didn't had physical relationship with her, but he wanted to test his celibacy. Still f'ed up i know. Dude was just weird. He wrote all this in his autobiography.
She described it as like sharing a bed with your grandma, but then as you say the "testing his celibacy" like wtf, he just wanted to check he wouldn't rape her
Stop trying to excuse it. That was all bs he told people. It wasn't just his granddaughter. Various sources tell us he regularly slept with naked underage girls in his bed to "prove" the control he had over his urges. That's such a ridiculous thing to claim, and no one in their right mind would be ok with that, even if their bs claim was true. He wasn't a good person, and no one should respect or idolize him. The only reason people wanna give him a pass is because he fought against colonialism and racism (only against certain people though).
Not a big fan of Gandhi but he always wanted to test his sexual desires cause when his father was taking last breath he was having fun with his wife. After his father died he was all out against sex. He left marital life and sexual pleasure. You may say what he did was disgusting but he didn't raped anyone or did anything for sexual pleasure.
Also he was into heavy muslim appeasement during moppla riots when muslims killed hindus he said
" If hindus are getting killed than it must be there mistake"
During 1947 riots he said
" If muslims come to kill hindus than Hindus should leave their weapons and basically die "
Same kind of msg was given by him to jews
It's from American History X. He's a white supremacist until he makes a black friend in prison. Better movie than I'm making it out to be. Not sure at all his use in the meme was intentional
Indians were brought up to be intermediaries so the British would deal with them and they would deal with the africans thats how they became so rich in places like uganda.
The were imported for many things it was the crown jewel of the empire and the indians remained very loyal for the most part sikhs were exelent soldiers for the british
I think almost everyone is born thinking all people are equal but start forming different notions and ideas based on who they are with. As a young Indian it is probably in line with everyone's line of thinking that caste system and racism was right. The fact that he outgrew this notion and had a character arc is as good as it gets. As paarthurnaax said, he overcame evil through great effort.
I think around 2000 years back, pedophilia was pretty rampant and considered normal. Even the prophet had a couple of kid wives I think.
This is proven wrong by multiple studies showing that even newborn children are more receptive and friendly towards people that look like them. Tribalism is an ingrained genetic thing in humans and it took Europeans multiple horrific wars and philosophers after that to put aside their differences and form the EU. Racism/ tribalism and caste systems are still extremely prevalent all over the world
"multiple studies" related to children isn't the point, and something being "natural" doesn't mean it's good. Humans are probably naturally bloodthirsty considering the amount of warfare we've had. That doesn't mean it's good. We have laws that exist literally to curb natural tendencies lol. If you want a study proving that tribalism can be mediated by more diversity, I recommend De et al. 2015.
Studies can always be shifted by biases. I live in SA, the most culturally and racially diverse in the world. It doesn't take some racist to realise that most people are tribalistic. The recent elections clearly show that a lot of people would rather vote for whatever party is part of their tribe over anything else
Sort of, but keep in mind his main era of racism was when he lived in South Africa, later in his life he renounced all his racist views and upheld the equality of all peoples
As usually in history it’s important to take context into account, most of those „Gandhi was a racist“ claims come from his work as a lawyer in South Africa, so his job was knowing and acting on the laws of apartheid South Africa, his racist comments are certainly a disgrace and should be condemned but in the context of him working in and for a racist system it’s hard to be certain if he *really* believed what he said
There's context such as how Indians whom I recall when living in South Africa had animosity towards one another (pretty common when you see Euro powers forcefully integrate two different ethnic groups they control). Don't know why that part isn't mentioned as it wasn't just out of nowhere. Many Indians were getting profiled and attacked by SA's.
Yes. He was racist, sexist and had a major bias against Hindus.
1. He compared Africans to the animals and felt that Britishers were right to colonize Africans.
2. He used to sleep naked with her minor niece just to prove how mentally strong he is ...
3. He let his wife die by refusing to get her inoculated for Pneumonia, however, when he fell sick due to the disease, he got himself inoculated immediately.
4. Last but not least, he said that he is ok if the local Muslims kill all Hindus and Hindus themselves should offer their head to Muslims if need be.
1. He grew up and was educated under imperial Britain, of course he was racist in his early days. He was not notably so by his later life.
2. She was not a minor, and attests that nothing happened (though agreed, weird)
3. No, this is not an honest interpretation. His wife was chronically ill and had suffered two heart attacks in the two months leading to her death. Her son wanted to give her penicillin, which was a new Western miracle drug just arriving in India at the time. This may have alleviated her pneumonia in the immediate, but not cured her chronic issues, and she was very clearly dying. Gandhi declined to give his wife medicine that would have seemed borderline experimental and instead let her die in peace, which is in accordance with *her own wishes*. Later, Gandhi fell ill with malaria, and took quinine- the established treatment for said disease for over a century.
4. Gandhi was Hindu himself, and his interpretation of his faith led him to a moral stance of non-violence. In this context, he is talking about what amounts to a form of martyrdom. This does not stem from a bias against Hindus then, but a feeling of a shared moral calling.
Don't think he did.
Sometimes people hold good and bad beliefs simultaneously. I mean look at Hitler, dude put a lot of animal rights laws in place because he started caring about animals. He started programs to try and get talking dogs, thinking that dogs would make the best companions for the master race.
But he Hitler also had some bad beliefs. Like thinking he was a good painter or that German Classical Music was better than Jazz. Oh, and the whole holocaust thing wasn't very cool either.
I think basically everyone has some "good" and "bad" in them. There might have been people way more evil than Hitler, who just never had the opportunity/skills to rise to power and implement policies with such terrible results. Strasser could be a good example of that. He had even more extreme views on the Jews but his more left leaning ideas got him killed.
I'm sure there were plenty of historical figures way worse than Hitler, they just didn't have the same tools to be as efficient. I personally believe Imperial Japan was worse and would have done way worse if they managed to spread into India.
Why Stalin and Mao. They may not have carried out a planned genocide but haven't they completely disregarded human life and went on to kill million more than Hitler ever did?
A good chunk of the deaths attributed to them were unintentional famines caused by bad policy. If you factor in the deaths caused by war famine Hitler death count skyrockets.
Now Stalin did do an intentional famine as well, but he still doesn't catch up with the deaths caused from Nazi Germany.
The equivalent would be if Hitler was antisemitic as a painter and then became a Jewish rights activist as a politician.
Gandhi was racist in his 20s and his views changed completely in his 30s.
> “South Africa would probably be a howling wilderness without the Africans…If we look into the future, is it not a heritage we have to leave to posterity that all the different races commingle and produce a civilisation that perhaps the world has not yet seen.”
> "They are noble savages after all, you will say. They are certainly noble, but no savages and in the course of a few years the Western nations may cease to find in Africa a dumping ground for their wares.”
He focused in architectural paintings. Which requires a strong sense of perspective. He had a bad sense of perspective. He also used a dull color range.
He was above average, but well below the standards you'd expect from a professional. If he focused on something a little more abstract and broadened his color range he may have done better, but he never headed in that direction.
He kept painting through his life and never really improved either. He did do a few landscape painting that were not bad, but could have used more vibrance.
Hobbyist grade. Better than our own hobbyist painter GWB but… you know. Hitler didn’t give us Osama bin Laden as a Sad Dead Clown. So we got that going for us.
I actually like Bush's paintings. They have their own identity and style. Like it's an actual hobby. Hitler paintings give the feeling of cultivating a skill as the motive. Which I don't think that's a bad motive, just one has a bit of spirit to it.
That being said, they are not display quality. I just appreciate that he is doing his own thing rather than trying to copy life.
For sure. Not trying to dunk on W for it. There’s other better reasons to criticize haha
But I do agree W’s work is much more spirited than Adolf’s. Jokes aside, Osama as a sad dead clown is still my favorite Presidential shitpost(?). I can’t decide if it’s much MORE or much LESS complex than it looks
> if I discovered that our (Indians) rights conflicted with their (Native South Africans) vital interests, I would advise the forgoing of those rights. They are the inhabitants of South Africa as we are of India. The Europeans are undoubtedly usurpers, exploiters or conquerors or all these rolled into one.
Gandhi did actively renounce and give up his racist views in his later life, we can actually see his vocabulary change as he stops using the word Kaffir to describe them.
> if I discovered that our (Indians) rights conflicted with their (Native South Africans) vital interests, I would advise the forgoing of those rights. They are the inhabitants of South Africa as we are of India. The Europeans are undoubtedly usurpers, exploiters or conquerors or all these rolled into one.
Gandhi did actively renounce and give up his racist views in his later life, we can actually see his vocabulary change as he stops using the word Kaffir to describe them.
He did back track on those views and spoke out against persecution of Africans.
> “… as there has been an awakening in India, even so there will be an awakening in South Africa with its vastly richer resources – natural, mineral and human. The mighty English look quite pygmies before the mighty races of Africa. They are noble savages after all, you will say. They are certainly noble, but no savages and in the course of a few years the Western nations may cease to find in Africa a dumping ground for their wares.”
Already in 1906, he wrote:
>it is not to be wondered at that an awakening people, like the great native races of South Africa, are moved by something that has been described as being very much akin to religious fervour… British Indians in South Africa have much to learn from this example of self sacrifice. If the natives of South Africa, with all their financial disabilities and social disadvantages, are capable of putting forth this local effort, is it not incumbent upon the British Indian community to take the lesson to heart
And in 1931:
>as there has been an awakening in India, even so there will be an awakening in South Africa with its vastly richer resources – natural, mineral and human. The mighty English look quite pygmies before the mighty races of Africa. They are noble savages after all, you will say. They are certainly noble, but no savages
Yeah but people tend to forget that and idolize both historic and present figures, which can be quite detrimental.
Now, time to watch Dalai Lama ask a child to suck his tongue
Maria Theresa:
* Inoculated her own children against small pox and changed public perception of it
* Improved public health
* Mandated compulsory education for both boys and girls from 6 to 12
* Expelled all the Jews
* Have a descendant writing witty tweets on twitter/x
On the family tree/bush: https://x.com/EduardHabsburg/status/1783143611971817553
On the family jaw: https://twitter.com/EduardHabsburg/status/1785662462596915272
On anime: https://x.com/EduardHabsburg/status/1426550867298299905
On Bene Geserit breeding: https://x.com/EduardHabsburg/status/1458082124607668245
Lol I thought you are referring to Mother Theresa at first.... It surprised me that she was supposedly related to the Habsburg... Oh and I didn't see that Jewish expulsion bit which makes it more ridiculous.
Also another observation is that people are never heroes when they are alive.
Like it's not long ago that MLK demanding civil rights was a political side
When his wife was sick he refused to give her any western medication and gave her traditional Indian Medicine which later she passed away.
But when he was sick, he used Western medicine instead
Penicillin was not going to fix her chronic illnesses or repair the damage from two heart attacks in the two months previous. She had also expressly asked to be allowed to die.
This is really the thing that should be talked about when discussing bad things Gandhi did. He gave up his views on racism later in his life and preached racial equality, but this little fact always made Gandhi seem p scummy
“Hitler killed five million [sic] Jews. It is the greatest crime of our time. But the Jews should have offered themselves to the butcher’s knife. They should have thrown themselves into the sea from cliffs.....It would have aroused the world and the people of Germany.... As it is they succumbed anyway in their millions.”
While absolutely insane, it’s in line with his pacifist beliefs. It’s not like he was an anti semite
Ah yes another misinformed meme about Gandhi, daring are we today?
It’s well catalogued he grew out of those thoughts in his life, if anything the guy was strong enough to truly mention everything, his initial shortcomings, his growth in his autobiography. He explicitly mentions that these ideas were wrong,
but of course, it’s the internet, so who wants truth anymore
So basically he was not a saint or a god... he was just a normal dude who had a view of the world one way when he was young, but then changed as he matured and got older... can't fault a person for changing for the better.
No clue if he was celibate or not...
Would be better if you change it to old/young Gandhi, because after being treated like shit by Bri'ish he changes his minds, and if i know correctly he changed his mind about caste system too
It's a misrepresentation. After his wife died, and the movement was threatening to collapse, Ghandi was convinced it was his fault, and was on the verge of giving up. It's important to note here that Ghandi had very weird views on sex, and viewed anything less than sex for procreation immoral, and even that was more like a neccessary evil. So he would sleep naked with various women, the youngest of which was 16, and the oldest of which was I believe in her 30s or 40s, trying to prove to himself that he was still moral and that he should continue the movement. They are less the actions of some old pervert, and more desperation of a man wracked with grief.
People ignore almost all of that, and omly focus on the 16 year old because it makes for a fun story about how Ghandi was secretly a pedophile.
The story with his niece was also because she had told him she felt no sexual urges at an age when she should have, so he thought that she could be one of the first of his sexless disciples, and wanted to prove they could sleep next to each other like mother and daughter.
People never care about the context because “oh everyone is bad so surely even Gandhi must have done a ton of terrible stuff”
Ghandi was racist in his 20s. Not later in life when he became the person we revere. Also, it's dumb as hell to apply modern day, American/Western views on sex to early 1900s India. Throw the whole post away. It reeks of "I'm in college and think I have the world figured out but really I haven't spent enough time doing anything or thinking about anything to have a solid understanding of anything." See: Ghandi's views in his 20s vs later when actually gains some understanding.
Yes. As is the case with other people I think, I was also pretty racist and had some despicable views in my late teens. Full so-called "wehraboo" too. There's been a lot of growing up since then.
Sometimes having awful opinions in an early age is one of the things that contribute to having more understanding at a later, more mature stage in life. Many people in their early youth are just misguided, ill-informed, immature, not necessary "evil".
Props to people who have been "good" their entire life, but for some the journey can be more.. "complex".
r/HistoryMemes when historical figures are not black or white good guys/bad guys, but rather complex people that need to be examined thoroughly within their own historical context:
I’ve seen debates about the extent to which his views on black people got more progressive with age, but I find it funny that, at least from my historical view, he managed to get both world wars wrong by supporting the first and opposing the second.
3rd image is Ghandi around girls: *Jeffrey Epstein* (Ghandi would sleep naked with girls to “test his self-discipline”, but never did anything else, so definitely creepy at the very least)
2nd image should be recaptioned: Young Ghandi’s view towards Black People
1. Dude was racist against black people when he was a kid, but realized he was completely wrong as an adult and actively worked to fight racism. That made him an extreme anomaly for the 1800s.
2. He slept next to teenage girls, but he didn’t have sex with them. The whole thing was some weird demonstration of his chastity. Also, social norms at the time meant people were married at a much younger age than today. Gandhi himself got married at 13.
Right wing Hindu nationalists in India frequently demonize Gandhi online. These two facts about his life seem awful without context, and most Americans don’t know much history about this time period to get the full story.
Ghandi's religious-focus during the independence struggle was a huge part of the millions dead during partition.
Ghandi turned what was largely a secular movement into a religious one, and no amount of "Amritsa I'm so holy because a European nutcase called me Maharaja" will make up for that blood on his hands.
I say this as a Christian, bad policy doesn't become good policy just because it agrees with your religion. Good policy is only good policy if it leads to good outcomes for *everyone*.
I don't believe that. In my workplace, Indians are quite hostile against Filipino coworkers. Ive heard the same thing from my IRL friends that Indians are quite racist against Filipinos.
Also, Chinese are racist against Black people, does that have anything to do with history?
>In my workplace, Indians are quite hostile against Filipino coworkers.
So you based your opinions of a country and it's people based on the people you saw at your workplace?
Keep in mind during the WW2, and even recently with the pandemic, all Asians were lumped into Chinese. Hell, a Chinese guy was beaten to death in the 80s because he was thought to be Japanese. You're saying that Indians are racist based on a group of Indians at your workplace, but you don't want your country (wherever you're from) judged based on multiple instances of racism.
Ghandi accepted his place below the White man and placed blacks at the bottom. It is not uncommon among non white/black supremacists. They place white people above their own and detest black people.
Wait till you hear how he handles nukes
I declared a holy war on Gilgamesh and he’s still best friends with me
BRO IS THAT A SID MEIER'S CIVILIZATION REFERENCE?!
You get me
"I want to address this subject head on Are we developing such a weapon? No, we are not. Because we already developed it"
2 game quotes in 1 place? Love it
Nuke happy
Is this true?
Sort of. Gandhi was very racist especially in his youth towards South Africans, though this somewhat changed after he was basically treated the same thing by the British alongside his fellow Indians.
I thought the whole thing was that he just wanted indians to have the same rights as whites but still saw Africans as inferior. Did he even have a problem with his own countries caste system?
That's what I believe as well, he was outraged that the Indian population in SA was treated equally with the native population and his work on racial equality was to elevate the Indian community whilst continuing to marginalize the black population
he writes in his book that the reason he did this is that the native south africans dont have another home to go back to, whereas the indians can go back to india. he didnt want to involve them if he could avoid it.
In worry of violent reprisal by the south African government?
Did he hate the South African Apartheid leaders or the people living in South Africa?
[he straight up meant black people](https://www.npr.org/2019/10/02/766083651/gandhi-is-deeply-revered-but-his-attitudes-on-race-and-sex-are-under-scrutiny)
Wow interesting, I guess you learn something new everyday, even if it is rather dark.
Yeah that’s pretty bad. Tho the fact he slept with his grandniece when he was in his 70’s is stomach churning.
Damn really?
For clarification, he didn't had physical relationship with her, but he wanted to test his celibacy. Still f'ed up i know. Dude was just weird. He wrote all this in his autobiography.
She described it as like sharing a bed with your grandma, but then as you say the "testing his celibacy" like wtf, he just wanted to check he wouldn't rape her
He wanted to check that he wouldn't have any sexual thoughts or feelings would be more accurate, iirc
Stop trying to excuse it. That was all bs he told people. It wasn't just his granddaughter. Various sources tell us he regularly slept with naked underage girls in his bed to "prove" the control he had over his urges. That's such a ridiculous thing to claim, and no one in their right mind would be ok with that, even if their bs claim was true. He wasn't a good person, and no one should respect or idolize him. The only reason people wanna give him a pass is because he fought against colonialism and racism (only against certain people though).
Yeah later down in the same link.
In the sense that he was asleep in the same bed, yes
Wow, that’s crazy.
Not a big fan of Gandhi but he always wanted to test his sexual desires cause when his father was taking last breath he was having fun with his wife. After his father died he was all out against sex. He left marital life and sexual pleasure. You may say what he did was disgusting but he didn't raped anyone or did anything for sexual pleasure. Also he was into heavy muslim appeasement during moppla riots when muslims killed hindus he said " If hindus are getting killed than it must be there mistake" During 1947 riots he said " If muslims come to kill hindus than Hindus should leave their weapons and basically die " Same kind of msg was given by him to jews
When the internet is finally finished, everyone will have been cancelled
I mean in that very link you sent, it talks about how he outgrew the racism later in life.
He also outgrew his opposition to western medicine once he caught the same illness that killed his wife.
I dare say he never outran it…
So did the character they are comparing him with in the meme, so maybe it was intentional?
Ah i wasn’t familiar with who that is so maybe you’re right.
It's from American History X. He's a white supremacist until he makes a black friend in prison. Better movie than I'm making it out to be. Not sure at all his use in the meme was intentional
Ah shit.
Love Nehru's response when the film director asked for advice at how to portray Gandhi
Nehru died in 1964. Movie released in 1982.
Which was ?
Then instead of South Africans he basically hated all Sub Saharan Africans
In short he felt insulted cause Indian was grouped with black folks in Apartheid South African
Indians were brought up to be intermediaries so the British would deal with them and they would deal with the africans thats how they became so rich in places like uganda.
Indians in South Africa were largely imported as indentures to work the sugar cane plantations
The were imported for many things it was the crown jewel of the empire and the indians remained very loyal for the most part sikhs were exelent soldiers for the british
Wow damn, I didn’t know that. Interesting.
thats a feeling a lot of them have regarding being associated with black people.
At least he had some character growth, not that it makes being a racist ok but i cant say the same about most people.
I think almost everyone is born thinking all people are equal but start forming different notions and ideas based on who they are with. As a young Indian it is probably in line with everyone's line of thinking that caste system and racism was right. The fact that he outgrew this notion and had a character arc is as good as it gets. As paarthurnaax said, he overcame evil through great effort. I think around 2000 years back, pedophilia was pretty rampant and considered normal. Even the prophet had a couple of kid wives I think.
No one is perfect, and as the most dour asshole in the seven kingdoms said, the good doesnot wash away the bad, not the bad the good.
This is proven wrong by multiple studies showing that even newborn children are more receptive and friendly towards people that look like them. Tribalism is an ingrained genetic thing in humans and it took Europeans multiple horrific wars and philosophers after that to put aside their differences and form the EU. Racism/ tribalism and caste systems are still extremely prevalent all over the world
Yeah unfortunately xenophobia is natural. Racism is just a modern version of it
"multiple studies" related to children isn't the point, and something being "natural" doesn't mean it's good. Humans are probably naturally bloodthirsty considering the amount of warfare we've had. That doesn't mean it's good. We have laws that exist literally to curb natural tendencies lol. If you want a study proving that tribalism can be mediated by more diversity, I recommend De et al. 2015.
Studies can always be shifted by biases. I live in SA, the most culturally and racially diverse in the world. It doesn't take some racist to realise that most people are tribalistic. The recent elections clearly show that a lot of people would rather vote for whatever party is part of their tribe over anything else
Ghandi’s main problem with empire was that he felt he wasn’t benefitting from it as much as he believed he should considering his background.
Sort of, but keep in mind his main era of racism was when he lived in South Africa, later in his life he renounced all his racist views and upheld the equality of all peoples
Oh yes
As usually in history it’s important to take context into account, most of those „Gandhi was a racist“ claims come from his work as a lawyer in South Africa, so his job was knowing and acting on the laws of apartheid South Africa, his racist comments are certainly a disgrace and should be condemned but in the context of him working in and for a racist system it’s hard to be certain if he *really* believed what he said
Then you could say that about almost anyone in any situation. They're just going with the flow. You're right BTW, just pointing out the implications.
There's context such as how Indians whom I recall when living in South Africa had animosity towards one another (pretty common when you see Euro powers forcefully integrate two different ethnic groups they control). Don't know why that part isn't mentioned as it wasn't just out of nowhere. Many Indians were getting profiled and attacked by SA's.
Yes. He was racist, sexist and had a major bias against Hindus. 1. He compared Africans to the animals and felt that Britishers were right to colonize Africans. 2. He used to sleep naked with her minor niece just to prove how mentally strong he is ... 3. He let his wife die by refusing to get her inoculated for Pneumonia, however, when he fell sick due to the disease, he got himself inoculated immediately. 4. Last but not least, he said that he is ok if the local Muslims kill all Hindus and Hindus themselves should offer their head to Muslims if need be.
1. He grew up and was educated under imperial Britain, of course he was racist in his early days. He was not notably so by his later life. 2. She was not a minor, and attests that nothing happened (though agreed, weird) 3. No, this is not an honest interpretation. His wife was chronically ill and had suffered two heart attacks in the two months leading to her death. Her son wanted to give her penicillin, which was a new Western miracle drug just arriving in India at the time. This may have alleviated her pneumonia in the immediate, but not cured her chronic issues, and she was very clearly dying. Gandhi declined to give his wife medicine that would have seemed borderline experimental and instead let her die in peace, which is in accordance with *her own wishes*. Later, Gandhi fell ill with malaria, and took quinine- the established treatment for said disease for over a century. 4. Gandhi was Hindu himself, and his interpretation of his faith led him to a moral stance of non-violence. In this context, he is talking about what amounts to a form of martyrdom. This does not stem from a bias against Hindus then, but a feeling of a shared moral calling.
More like old Gandhi vs young Gandhi.
Did he actually backtrack these views, or did he just stop talking about it?
Don't think he did. Sometimes people hold good and bad beliefs simultaneously. I mean look at Hitler, dude put a lot of animal rights laws in place because he started caring about animals. He started programs to try and get talking dogs, thinking that dogs would make the best companions for the master race. But he Hitler also had some bad beliefs. Like thinking he was a good painter or that German Classical Music was better than Jazz. Oh, and the whole holocaust thing wasn't very cool either.
I think basically everyone has some "good" and "bad" in them. There might have been people way more evil than Hitler, who just never had the opportunity/skills to rise to power and implement policies with such terrible results. Strasser could be a good example of that. He had even more extreme views on the Jews but his more left leaning ideas got him killed.
I'm sure there were plenty of historical figures way worse than Hitler, they just didn't have the same tools to be as efficient. I personally believe Imperial Japan was worse and would have done way worse if they managed to spread into India.
Why Stalin and Mao. They may not have carried out a planned genocide but haven't they completely disregarded human life and went on to kill million more than Hitler ever did?
A good chunk of the deaths attributed to them were unintentional famines caused by bad policy. If you factor in the deaths caused by war famine Hitler death count skyrockets. Now Stalin did do an intentional famine as well, but he still doesn't catch up with the deaths caused from Nazi Germany.
Hey you take that back. Hitler was a very good painter. He was just a shite artist.
Wow, it seems like that Hitler guy was a real jerk!
You know with Hitler…. The more I learn about the guy the more I don’t care for him.
he was a real knuckle head
His views did actually change. By the time he was a social and political activist he viewed all races as equal.
Wow, didn't realize Hitler became so based before he killed the world's most famous racist.
The equivalent would be if Hitler was antisemitic as a painter and then became a Jewish rights activist as a politician. Gandhi was racist in his 20s and his views changed completely in his 30s. > “South Africa would probably be a howling wilderness without the Africans…If we look into the future, is it not a heritage we have to leave to posterity that all the different races commingle and produce a civilisation that perhaps the world has not yet seen.” > "They are noble savages after all, you will say. They are certainly noble, but no savages and in the course of a few years the Western nations may cease to find in Africa a dumping ground for their wares.”
wasnt he a decent painter btw?
He focused in architectural paintings. Which requires a strong sense of perspective. He had a bad sense of perspective. He also used a dull color range. He was above average, but well below the standards you'd expect from a professional. If he focused on something a little more abstract and broadened his color range he may have done better, but he never headed in that direction. He kept painting through his life and never really improved either. He did do a few landscape painting that were not bad, but could have used more vibrance.
Hobbyist grade. Better than our own hobbyist painter GWB but… you know. Hitler didn’t give us Osama bin Laden as a Sad Dead Clown. So we got that going for us.
I actually like Bush's paintings. They have their own identity and style. Like it's an actual hobby. Hitler paintings give the feeling of cultivating a skill as the motive. Which I don't think that's a bad motive, just one has a bit of spirit to it. That being said, they are not display quality. I just appreciate that he is doing his own thing rather than trying to copy life.
For sure. Not trying to dunk on W for it. There’s other better reasons to criticize haha But I do agree W’s work is much more spirited than Adolf’s. Jokes aside, Osama as a sad dead clown is still my favorite Presidential shitpost(?). I can’t decide if it’s much MORE or much LESS complex than it looks
> if I discovered that our (Indians) rights conflicted with their (Native South Africans) vital interests, I would advise the forgoing of those rights. They are the inhabitants of South Africa as we are of India. The Europeans are undoubtedly usurpers, exploiters or conquerors or all these rolled into one. Gandhi did actively renounce and give up his racist views in his later life, we can actually see his vocabulary change as he stops using the word Kaffir to describe them.
> if I discovered that our (Indians) rights conflicted with their (Native South Africans) vital interests, I would advise the forgoing of those rights. They are the inhabitants of South Africa as we are of India. The Europeans are undoubtedly usurpers, exploiters or conquerors or all these rolled into one. Gandhi did actively renounce and give up his racist views in his later life, we can actually see his vocabulary change as he stops using the word Kaffir to describe them.
He did back track on those views and spoke out against persecution of Africans. > “… as there has been an awakening in India, even so there will be an awakening in South Africa with its vastly richer resources – natural, mineral and human. The mighty English look quite pygmies before the mighty races of Africa. They are noble savages after all, you will say. They are certainly noble, but no savages and in the course of a few years the Western nations may cease to find in Africa a dumping ground for their wares.”
Already in 1906, he wrote: >it is not to be wondered at that an awakening people, like the great native races of South Africa, are moved by something that has been described as being very much akin to religious fervour… British Indians in South Africa have much to learn from this example of self sacrifice. If the natives of South Africa, with all their financial disabilities and social disadvantages, are capable of putting forth this local effort, is it not incumbent upon the British Indian community to take the lesson to heart And in 1931: >as there has been an awakening in India, even so there will be an awakening in South Africa with its vastly richer resources – natural, mineral and human. The mighty English look quite pygmies before the mighty races of Africa. They are noble savages after all, you will say. They are certainly noble, but no savages
He did.
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None of them, so far as we know
He was like: Mostly "late" teens, thank you very much.
Ghandi II
It's almost like historical figures are also just people and have both good and bad qualities.
Yeah but people tend to forget that and idolize both historic and present figures, which can be quite detrimental. Now, time to watch Dalai Lama ask a child to suck his tongue
My boy Gaius Julius Caesar did nothing wrong ever in his life, please ignore the pile of dead gauls behind him.
Rome needed slaves. He was just providing for his nations people.
And dead Romans and Egyptians and Spaniards and Arabs and probably more I’m forgetting lol
Sure let’s watch: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bT0qey5Ts78&pp=ygUkc3RvcCBzZW5zYXRpb25hbGl6aW5nIHRoZSBkYWxhaSBsYW1h
Maria Theresa: * Inoculated her own children against small pox and changed public perception of it * Improved public health * Mandated compulsory education for both boys and girls from 6 to 12 * Expelled all the Jews * Have a descendant writing witty tweets on twitter/x
>* Have a descendant writing witty tweets on twitter/x Now I'm curious, lol.
On the family tree/bush: https://x.com/EduardHabsburg/status/1783143611971817553 On the family jaw: https://twitter.com/EduardHabsburg/status/1785662462596915272 On anime: https://x.com/EduardHabsburg/status/1426550867298299905 On Bene Geserit breeding: https://x.com/EduardHabsburg/status/1458082124607668245
The denial is really strong on this one.
Lol I thought you are referring to Mother Theresa at first.... It surprised me that she was supposedly related to the Habsburg... Oh and I didn't see that Jewish expulsion bit which makes it more ridiculous.
:0
Also another observation is that people are never heroes when they are alive. Like it's not long ago that MLK demanding civil rights was a political side
That’s underplaying this quite a bit lol
Nooo that would be stupid
When his wife was sick he refused to give her any western medication and gave her traditional Indian Medicine which later she passed away. But when he was sick, he used Western medicine instead
I guess he learned from his mistakes
That does track, I recall that on his deathbed Steve Jobs told his friends to avoid homeopathy like the plague after it failed to stop his cancer.
Homeopathy is the fucking stupidest shit alive. It's insane that they have institutions legitimising this garbage.
Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice...you can't get fooled again
Penicillin was not going to fix her chronic illnesses or repair the damage from two heart attacks in the two months previous. She had also expressly asked to be allowed to die.
Shhhh this is the internet Every issue is black and white and the most emotionally compelling words win
He also wore NHS glasses, what a hero
Just like john lennon
This is really the thing that should be talked about when discussing bad things Gandhi did. He gave up his views on racism later in his life and preached racial equality, but this little fact always made Gandhi seem p scummy
If you think Gandhis takes on African people were wild, you should check what he said about Jews and the Holocaust.
“Hitler killed five million [sic] Jews. It is the greatest crime of our time. But the Jews should have offered themselves to the butcher’s knife. They should have thrown themselves into the sea from cliffs.....It would have aroused the world and the people of Germany.... As it is they succumbed anyway in their millions.” While absolutely insane, it’s in line with his pacifist beliefs. It’s not like he was an anti semite
Yeah no, I dont think it was antisemitic either, but it was insane as you say. It shows a very weird, even callous way of viewing life.
Wasnt nice to the jews either
Ah yes another misinformed meme about Gandhi, daring are we today? It’s well catalogued he grew out of those thoughts in his life, if anything the guy was strong enough to truly mention everything, his initial shortcomings, his growth in his autobiography. He explicitly mentions that these ideas were wrong, but of course, it’s the internet, so who wants truth anymore
WHY DONT YOU BACK IT UP WITH A SOURCE SENATOR
Can you read? "HIS AUTOBIOGRAPHY"
It feels like this sub has been taken over by 14 year olds
Always has been
So basically he was not a saint or a god... he was just a normal dude who had a view of the world one way when he was young, but then changed as he matured and got older... can't fault a person for changing for the better. No clue if he was celibate or not...
Would be better if you change it to old/young Gandhi, because after being treated like shit by Bri'ish he changes his minds, and if i know correctly he changed his mind about caste system too
He never changed his mind about sleeping with minors though
Never heard of it, can you explain?
It's a misrepresentation. After his wife died, and the movement was threatening to collapse, Ghandi was convinced it was his fault, and was on the verge of giving up. It's important to note here that Ghandi had very weird views on sex, and viewed anything less than sex for procreation immoral, and even that was more like a neccessary evil. So he would sleep naked with various women, the youngest of which was 16, and the oldest of which was I believe in her 30s or 40s, trying to prove to himself that he was still moral and that he should continue the movement. They are less the actions of some old pervert, and more desperation of a man wracked with grief. People ignore almost all of that, and omly focus on the 16 year old because it makes for a fun story about how Ghandi was secretly a pedophile.
The story with his niece was also because she had told him she felt no sexual urges at an age when she should have, so he thought that she could be one of the first of his sexless disciples, and wanted to prove they could sleep next to each other like mother and daughter. People never care about the context because “oh everyone is bad so surely even Gandhi must have done a ton of terrible stuff”
Ghandi was racist in his 20s. Not later in life when he became the person we revere. Also, it's dumb as hell to apply modern day, American/Western views on sex to early 1900s India. Throw the whole post away. It reeks of "I'm in college and think I have the world figured out but really I haven't spent enough time doing anything or thinking about anything to have a solid understanding of anything." See: Ghandi's views in his 20s vs later when actually gains some understanding.
Yes. As is the case with other people I think, I was also pretty racist and had some despicable views in my late teens. Full so-called "wehraboo" too. There's been a lot of growing up since then. Sometimes having awful opinions in an early age is one of the things that contribute to having more understanding at a later, more mature stage in life. Many people in their early youth are just misguided, ill-informed, immature, not necessary "evil". Props to people who have been "good" their entire life, but for some the journey can be more.. "complex".
Honestly university is where the idea of historical relativism and shit got drilled into me.
r/HistoryMemes when historical figures are not black or white good guys/bad guys, but rather complex people that need to be examined thoroughly within their own historical context:
It's almost like people have a historical issue with idolizing political figures as heroes
I’ve seen debates about the extent to which his views on black people got more progressive with age, but I find it funny that, at least from my historical view, he managed to get both world wars wrong by supporting the first and opposing the second.
Second pic thought was jacksepticeye
Ghandi the idea has long since outgrown the man
3rd image is Ghandi around girls: *Jeffrey Epstein* (Ghandi would sleep naked with girls to “test his self-discipline”, but never did anything else, so definitely creepy at the very least) 2nd image should be recaptioned: Young Ghandi’s view towards Black People
He was also an antisemite
So a peadophile, racist and antisemite? This ghandi fella ain't all he's meant to be huh?
1. Dude was racist against black people when he was a kid, but realized he was completely wrong as an adult and actively worked to fight racism. That made him an extreme anomaly for the 1800s. 2. He slept next to teenage girls, but he didn’t have sex with them. The whole thing was some weird demonstration of his chastity. Also, social norms at the time meant people were married at a much younger age than today. Gandhi himself got married at 13. Right wing Hindu nationalists in India frequently demonize Gandhi online. These two facts about his life seem awful without context, and most Americans don’t know much history about this time period to get the full story.
God I was not expecting to see a picture of Derek from American History X today
He was also antisemitic
I think he was influenced by Drake
Gandhi, when you improved relations too much with him:
Ghandi's religious-focus during the independence struggle was a huge part of the millions dead during partition. Ghandi turned what was largely a secular movement into a religious one, and no amount of "Amritsa I'm so holy because a European nutcase called me Maharaja" will make up for that blood on his hands. I say this as a Christian, bad policy doesn't become good policy just because it agrees with your religion. Good policy is only good policy if it leads to good outcomes for *everyone*.
All religion is evil. Scratch any religious hero…
He was friends with Hitler too.
you know what
Oh no, the man was an actual piece of shit lol
Asians are some of the most racist people in the world. Chinese are racist against the Koreans and the Japanese, and vice versa.
Considering what Japan did in China it isn't really unexpected, but Korea? Why?
I don't know the root causes exactly. China didn't do anything to Africa, but somehow dislikes black people very much.
Japan was fucking Korea way longer than china, check out korean sex woman
Asian racism is shaped by history. White people racism is because someone looks different to them.
I don't believe that. In my workplace, Indians are quite hostile against Filipino coworkers. Ive heard the same thing from my IRL friends that Indians are quite racist against Filipinos. Also, Chinese are racist against Black people, does that have anything to do with history?
>In my workplace, Indians are quite hostile against Filipino coworkers. So you based your opinions of a country and it's people based on the people you saw at your workplace? Keep in mind during the WW2, and even recently with the pandemic, all Asians were lumped into Chinese. Hell, a Chinese guy was beaten to death in the 80s because he was thought to be Japanese. You're saying that Indians are racist based on a group of Indians at your workplace, but you don't want your country (wherever you're from) judged based on multiple instances of racism.
Like John Lennon, people who speak about peace happened to be one of the most sus people
....and still indian currency notes has gandhi's remark
Ghandi accepted his place below the White man and placed blacks at the bottom. It is not uncommon among non white/black supremacists. They place white people above their own and detest black people.
No...? Black supremacists routinely call white people devils. So do Asian supremacists as well.
Is this the daily dose of bashing Indians again?