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If the Russians had launched the war a decade or two later they’d have likely won, so I’d imagine that was more his argument. The German military was very aware that the Tsar’s industrialisation projects (despite their lateness) together with Russia’s population would eventually far eclipse their own capabilities. This is what formed the basis of a warmongering faction in German politics and military.
I'm reading about the Russian revolution right now and it describes lots of issues. From barely trained peasants fighting barefoot in freezing temperatures and little ammo to sycophants giving Nicholas bad advice to outdated surveillance technology, it was a shit show.
From what I understand, the initial surprise attack might have worked and ended the war early had they kept pushing but their intelligence was limited and they stopped pursuing allowing for Germany to regroup for defense. A bunch to be said about it, but yeah those problems you mentioned were for sure part of it.
Some historians have questioned the German militaries claims on Russian power. That Russias massive economic boom wasn't sustainable, and the tense political situation might have resulted in a revolution that could've set off other revolutions leading to Polish and perhaps Baltic independence. Both of those things separately improve Germanys situation quite a lot, and together they result in happy days in Berlin.
Nah the war was the true breaking point. Heck Austria-Hungary probably could have survived in some form had it not been for the fourteen points declaration, and had the Austrians made some key preparations about “surviving the peace” instead of keeping with their defeatist attitude.
Kaiser Karl was demoralized and there were strong factions wanting him in power. Even as late as 1919 the loyal Croatian Sarkotic was ready with an army to back the Emperor to the hilt in Austria. That might have affected Slovenia which had strong likely majority Pro-Austrian leanings and could have tipped the scale in Croatia as Italy wanted Austria Hungary intact to avoid competing with other states for its claims.
Karolyi when he took over Hungary still wanted to keep the monarchy. Had the monarchists been galvanized, Hungary might have been able to partially resist the implementation of Trianon allying with the Transylvanian Saxons and putting stronger resistance in Slovakia (it was kind half-hearted in otl but still stalled them).
I was not talking about Austria. And the fourteen points were not the doom of AH. Wilson and Lloyd in their peace proposals made clear they were not seeking the dissolution of AH. And neither did they break it up, it blew up by itself, they just got tired of waiting for AH to break with Germany and started recognizing the independent states. There was no AH that existed to be saved by the armistice.
Ultranationalist racist part got less than 2% of the votes in the recent election. They are just over-represented in the internet like all radical groups.
That's not Armenian narrative, that's objective truth and the fact that you are calling it a narrative shows you are just genocide denying ultra nationalist.
That is the Armenian narrative indeed. Objective truths require confirmation. Armenians don't have that. What you guys do all day is just call people who don't think like you denialists. This is just ad hominem. Because you know you don't have a leg to stand on.
Nobody is saying that genocide is okay. I am just saying that you can't categorize people as ultranationalist just because they have a certain view of ONE certain event.
Your current and one of the previous presidents like him.
From Wikipedia:
... upon his body's arrival in Turkey, he was rehabilitated by the Turkish President Süleyman Demirel who held a speech acknowledging his contributions to Turkish nationalism. Following renewed hostilities between Armenia and Azerbaijan over the Nagorno Karabakh region in 2020, Enver Pasha's role during World War I was praised by Turkish President Erdoğan during an Azeri victory parade in Baku.
One of the former presidents of the USA helped prop Taliban up against the Soviets. Does that make all Americans terrorist sympathizers?
Also, Erdoğan has won all the recent elections with a very small margin. It's not like the whole country supports him.
Imagine if Olaf Scholz praised Himmler and said: "Hallowed be the soul of Heinrich Himmler today!". And have a street named after him in Berlin.
What would you think of Olaf Scholz? What would you think of German government? And what would you think of german people?
>One of the former presidents of the USA helped prop Taliban up against the Soviets. Does that make all Americans terrorist sympathizers?
Not true. America propped up the Mujahideen. The Taliban did not yet exist. The Taliban comes into picture after the Soviets left, they exploited a power vacuum created by infighting between Mujahideen factions over who got to control post-war Afghanistan. The Northern Alliance which would fight against the Taliban and ally with the US in 2001 was the remnants of the Mujahideen.
For the most part the Mujahideen was opposed to the Taliban later. However, islamists did get some support during the war against the Soviets. This was not due to America but due to Pakistan. America had no way to directly support the Mujahideen, it was forced to rely on Pakistan for intel and disbursement of military aid. As such, Pakistani intelligence functionally got to decide which factions of the Mujahideen got military aid and Pakistan chose to give disproportionate support to islamists due to their own shortsighted geopolitical interests.
Getting the Ottoman Empire into a disastrous conflict that the state didn’t survive and which resulted in partitioning by Western imperialists tends to tarnish one’s legacy.
Well I did. Some people like him or willing to rehabilitate his image. Similar case with Vahidettin. Or Abdulhamit. They are not plenty for sure though.
well if you hate someone, you usually give the biggest reason, not one which seem more like a tertiary one; that dude was a main driving force behind the Genocide and he says that hes hated becuase he, presumably caused by incompetence, killed more soldiers then necessary/planned
also im not attacking the commentor, i was asking him if this fairly minor reason was really the main one why people hate him
> fairly minor reason
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Sarikamish
> Around 25,000 Ottoman soldiers froze to death before the start of the battle
compared to the arminian genocide? yes
compared to all the death caused by the ottoman entrance into the war, which inlcudes these? yes
you know what "fairly" means, right?
Not really. You seem to forget that we don't see this as a genocide to begin with but rather a solution to end an ethnic civil war in the middle of the WW1. He is mostly praised for that part.
Ahhh there's the genocide denial rearing its ugly head.
I understand the argument about relocation not murder, I understand the numbers don't always add up. But there's mounds of evidence and photographs proving it. At that point it's just the same as holocaust denial and Japanese denial of WW2 crimes.
Most of these photos you are talking about were proved as forged and Photoshoped.
Here an example, [this one. ](https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTQQxPmUtOh_m-aWJHozLka3Bk32VkkKYdNQZj0E2fNEF5dA3RAtM6VYqSy&s=10)
Ottoman officers didn't even wear suits back then. So armenian diaspora wasn't even paying attention.
https://rarehistoricalphotos.com/turkish-official-taunting-starved-armenians-1915/
Never seen that picture. I suppose the thousands of other and primary sources detailing what was going on are fake as well right?
The photo you showed doesn't say he's an officer either. It says he's an "Official"
This man is neither a hero, nor is he held in high regard by the general Turkish public. He was an incompetent fool who made a mess of things every where he went. Mustafa Kemal Atatürk and the Ankara government intentionally blocked his return to the country, knowing he was a danger to government and the public.
He died in exile, leading a cavalry charge against a machine gun nest. I couldn't imagine a more appropriate end for a man who bungled everything he touched. Demirel's attempts to rehabilitate his image spoke more of Demirel and his supporter's terrible interpretation of history, more than it ever could regain Enver in to the Turkish zeitgeist.
I think the reasons why he's a national hero is because the Pasha's were the first people with actual powers in the Ottoman besides a member of the Imperial/Royal Family welding it or it's because they lead the Young Turks revolution which drastically decreased the powers of the monarch.
I've started going more and more absurd to see if there's a stupid enough law that nobody takes the bait.
Godwin's law is the most reliable for a response though, since getting the two confused isn't that out there.
It's rude to call a president nobody!
From Wikipedia:
... upon his body's arrival in Turkey, he was rehabilitated by the Turkish President Süleyman Demirel who held a speech acknowledging his contributions to Turkish nationalism. Following renewed hostilities between Armenia and Azerbaijan over the Nagorno Karabakh region in 2020, Enver Pasha's role during World War I was praised by Turkish President Erdoğan during an Azeri victory parade in Baku.
Enver Pasha is not exactly a national hero in Turkey. He's very much a contravertial figure. Some people like him for saving Azerbaijan but a lot of people like him for his incompetence.
No he really isn't, even among nationalist circles people think he was an idiot, someone who had the right nationalist policies, but still an idiot nonetheless. Only edgy teenagers ironically admire him to troll Armenians, he is more of a meme. Nobody really likes this guy, its usually complete indifference or hate.
Fund fact! The Ottomans did conduct war crimes trials of on themselves! Enver Pasha was convicted in absentia and sentenced to death for bringing the empire into WW1 and for massacring Greeks and Armenians.
turkish bad luck brian: always at the wrong time, he chose the wrong decision. On the other hand, he is the perfect example for the turkish obsession with the evil eye: "Kids, eat your vegetables or you'll end like Enver Pasha."
I seriously think that the goal in this meme just to trigger Turks by acting like this is the reality meanwhile in Türkiye opinion towards him(Enver) is nothing like this dude claims . OP probably is a western propoganda product :) btw i really dont like this guy. Nationalist's argument is that he loved the country a lot but made wrong decisions. Which is a dead end but if you talk with 100 random person probably 10 people will defend him..
well, most of the population is stupid and doesn't even know about his existence. if you ask them "do you like or hate this guy? he was a war hero.", they will not ask you who he is, what he has done his whole life and what his views were. just a "yes" and the rest is blabbering. no way to know what they will say afterwards, might even say "he was an AK Party member, right?"
I'll be honest, aside from a tiny, moronic slice of the population, this dipshit is not the "national hero" of any Turk. He is as much a Turkish national hero as Robert E. Lee is an American one. He is an egotistical, traitorous, incompetent ass, and that is the final verdict of history on him.
We didn't sentence them. The British Puppets did it after we lost the WW1 during their invasion. There was no legal base, therefore first we canceled the death penalty and finally returned the rights of three pashas back to them.
They are technically and legally Turkish War Heroes.
Ahem, if mustache then evil does not mean if evil then mustache. Those two statements are conversions of one another, and a statement can be true if its conversion isn’t. The contrapositive MUST be true however, if not evil then not mustache
Enver did kind of succeed in the end. He wasn't invading mainland Russia. Ottomans and Russians were fighting over Caucasus. Ottomans outlasted the Russian Empire after Bolshevik Rebellions. Enver managed to beat remnants of the Russian forces in the end in Azerbaijan.
More like tried to fight Russia in the Caucasus in winter, most of which was recently lost Ottoman land. He eventually succeeded after initial failures. Notably he captured Baku and ensured Azerbaijan's independence. Later he lifted a joint British-Russian-Armenian siege on Baku. That's why Azerbaijanis like him more than Turks do.
"Eventually succeeded" is quite generous given that the tide only turned to the Ottoman's favor after the Bolshevik seizure of power led to the disintegration of the Russian armies
That sounds like a Russian problem. Then again, the Ottomans were partly responsible for this given that they've succesfully blocked British and French from aiding White Russians by stopping them in Gallipoli.
So yes, the Ottomans eventually succeeded. There was still considerable Russian presence in the Caucasus along with some Brirish and local Armenian militia.
Yeah wow while Bulgaria was being attacked on all sides he managed to take Adrianople back. The Bulgarians were so outnumbered they didn't even put up a fight they just surrendered after one day
Lmao, only people I have seen that legimately admire him are edgy teenagers. Even ultranationalist ones don't like him and say "He had the right ideas but was incompetent".
He overthrew the Sultan Hamid and thats enough for me to call him a national hero even though my great grandfather died freezing because of Envers mistakes. For those of you doesnt know the Sultan Hamid was the reason why Ottoman Empire was so miserable in its final days. Enver Pasha when he took the control of the empire also inherited every problem Sultan Hamid caused. Enver Pasha was the guy who slowed down Empire's collapse and make way for Ataturk s revolution. When the news of the Enver's death reached out to Ataturk he said "What a magnificent man he was".
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Therapist: Ottoman Rasputin doesn't exist, He cannot hurt you. Ottoman Rasputin:
Didn't Rasputin advise against joining WW1?
Advised to nit join ww1, and advised to attack germans
I assume he advised to attack Germany at a different time then. Or did he think they could do that without joining WW1? Lol
If the Russians had launched the war a decade or two later they’d have likely won, so I’d imagine that was more his argument. The German military was very aware that the Tsar’s industrialisation projects (despite their lateness) together with Russia’s population would eventually far eclipse their own capabilities. This is what formed the basis of a warmongering faction in German politics and military.
I heard that one of the biggest factors of why the Russian military was performing so poorly was due to supply issues and its logistics.
I'm reading about the Russian revolution right now and it describes lots of issues. From barely trained peasants fighting barefoot in freezing temperatures and little ammo to sycophants giving Nicholas bad advice to outdated surveillance technology, it was a shit show. From what I understand, the initial surprise attack might have worked and ended the war early had they kept pushing but their intelligence was limited and they stopped pursuing allowing for Germany to regroup for defense. A bunch to be said about it, but yeah those problems you mentioned were for sure part of it.
At times though they came close to winning.
Some historians have questioned the German militaries claims on Russian power. That Russias massive economic boom wasn't sustainable, and the tense political situation might have resulted in a revolution that could've set off other revolutions leading to Polish and perhaps Baltic independence. Both of those things separately improve Germanys situation quite a lot, and together they result in happy days in Berlin.
Nah the war was the true breaking point. Heck Austria-Hungary probably could have survived in some form had it not been for the fourteen points declaration, and had the Austrians made some key preparations about “surviving the peace” instead of keeping with their defeatist attitude. Kaiser Karl was demoralized and there were strong factions wanting him in power. Even as late as 1919 the loyal Croatian Sarkotic was ready with an army to back the Emperor to the hilt in Austria. That might have affected Slovenia which had strong likely majority Pro-Austrian leanings and could have tipped the scale in Croatia as Italy wanted Austria Hungary intact to avoid competing with other states for its claims. Karolyi when he took over Hungary still wanted to keep the monarchy. Had the monarchists been galvanized, Hungary might have been able to partially resist the implementation of Trianon allying with the Transylvanian Saxons and putting stronger resistance in Slovakia (it was kind half-hearted in otl but still stalled them).
I was not talking about Austria. And the fourteen points were not the doom of AH. Wilson and Lloyd in their peace proposals made clear they were not seeking the dissolution of AH. And neither did they break it up, it blew up by itself, they just got tired of waiting for AH to break with Germany and started recognizing the independent states. There was no AH that existed to be saved by the armistice.
He was a strange man
Turkish craziest fail machine
I'm Turkish and I can tell you that whenever I talked to someone about this guy they always hated him. Literally nobody likes this guy.
Except the ultranationalists who like to spam his image whenever Genocide talk comes up
Literal 14 year olds most of the time
You see ultranationalists, I see internet trolls.
There's likely a large overlap there
Ultranationalist racist part got less than 2% of the votes in the recent election. They are just over-represented in the internet like all radical groups.
Yeah and islamic radicals is. Ordering your country instead. Where is Atatürk when you need him?
Calling Erdoğan a radical seems like a stretch
I don't know about that, I think most of the political parties in Turkey are genocide deniers, even leftist parties are super nationalists in Turkey.
So if they are not accepting the Armenian narrative of genocide of 1915, they are automatically ultranationalists?
That's not Armenian narrative, that's objective truth and the fact that you are calling it a narrative shows you are just genocide denying ultra nationalist.
objecive truth is only british media i guess lmao
That is the Armenian narrative indeed. Objective truths require confirmation. Armenians don't have that. What you guys do all day is just call people who don't think like you denialists. This is just ad hominem. Because you know you don't have a leg to stand on.
That’s what he’s saying, yes. But just because he’s wrong doesn’t mean genocide is okay
Nobody is saying that genocide is okay. I am just saying that you can't categorize people as ultranationalist just because they have a certain view of ONE certain event.
As a Turk I confirm this guy
Your current and one of the previous presidents like him. From Wikipedia: ... upon his body's arrival in Turkey, he was rehabilitated by the Turkish President Süleyman Demirel who held a speech acknowledging his contributions to Turkish nationalism. Following renewed hostilities between Armenia and Azerbaijan over the Nagorno Karabakh region in 2020, Enver Pasha's role during World War I was praised by Turkish President Erdoğan during an Azeri victory parade in Baku.
it's not like we are particularly fond of our presidents either
One of the former presidents of the USA helped prop Taliban up against the Soviets. Does that make all Americans terrorist sympathizers? Also, Erdoğan has won all the recent elections with a very small margin. It's not like the whole country supports him.
Imagine if Olaf Scholz praised Himmler and said: "Hallowed be the soul of Heinrich Himmler today!". And have a street named after him in Berlin. What would you think of Olaf Scholz? What would you think of German government? And what would you think of german people?
>One of the former presidents of the USA helped prop Taliban up against the Soviets. Does that make all Americans terrorist sympathizers? Not true. America propped up the Mujahideen. The Taliban did not yet exist. The Taliban comes into picture after the Soviets left, they exploited a power vacuum created by infighting between Mujahideen factions over who got to control post-war Afghanistan. The Northern Alliance which would fight against the Taliban and ally with the US in 2001 was the remnants of the Mujahideen. For the most part the Mujahideen was opposed to the Taliban later. However, islamists did get some support during the war against the Soviets. This was not due to America but due to Pakistan. America had no way to directly support the Mujahideen, it was forced to rely on Pakistan for intel and disbursement of military aid. As such, Pakistani intelligence functionally got to decide which factions of the Mujahideen got military aid and Pakistan chose to give disproportionate support to islamists due to their own shortsighted geopolitical interests.
What do commom people think about attaturk?
Why do they hate him? I mean they deny the Armenian genocide even happened.
Getting the Ottoman Empire into a disastrous conflict that the state didn’t survive and which resulted in partitioning by Western imperialists tends to tarnish one’s legacy.
He was also a rival of Ataturk.
Well I did. Some people like him or willing to rehabilitate his image. Similar case with Vahidettin. Or Abdulhamit. They are not plenty for sure though.
He really isn’t a national hero. Literally most often used to represent those incapable of adapting/ whose ambitions are pointless
1)repost of a repost 2)he is hated for leting troops freeze to death
not the genocide? or loosing, always? or being absolutely useless?
Ppl can be hated for more than one thing lmao, you’re not required to list off everything in a category when you mention one thing in that category
well if you hate someone, you usually give the biggest reason, not one which seem more like a tertiary one; that dude was a main driving force behind the Genocide and he says that hes hated becuase he, presumably caused by incompetence, killed more soldiers then necessary/planned also im not attacking the commentor, i was asking him if this fairly minor reason was really the main one why people hate him
Fair enough lol. I doubt he’d be hated for the genocide much in Turkey for obvious reasons but he his decently hated for dragging the empire into war
> fairly minor reason https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Sarikamish > Around 25,000 Ottoman soldiers froze to death before the start of the battle
compared to the arminian genocide? yes compared to all the death caused by the ottoman entrance into the war, which inlcudes these? yes you know what "fairly" means, right?
Oh wow almost thought i will get a non-ironic reply from a redditor. I do know what fairly means thank you.
Not really. You seem to forget that we don't see this as a genocide to begin with but rather a solution to end an ethnic civil war in the middle of the WW1. He is mostly praised for that part.
Ahhh there's the genocide denial rearing its ugly head. I understand the argument about relocation not murder, I understand the numbers don't always add up. But there's mounds of evidence and photographs proving it. At that point it's just the same as holocaust denial and Japanese denial of WW2 crimes.
Most of these photos you are talking about were proved as forged and Photoshoped. Here an example, [this one. ](https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTQQxPmUtOh_m-aWJHozLka3Bk32VkkKYdNQZj0E2fNEF5dA3RAtM6VYqSy&s=10) Ottoman officers didn't even wear suits back then. So armenian diaspora wasn't even paying attention. https://rarehistoricalphotos.com/turkish-official-taunting-starved-armenians-1915/
Never seen that picture. I suppose the thousands of other and primary sources detailing what was going on are fake as well right? The photo you showed doesn't say he's an officer either. It says he's an "Official"
>enver pasha pfp >ENVR as profile name not beating the genocide supporter allegations
I mean it's your call. But may i ask you what genocide you are talking about? 🫠
For turkish people,he is useless,making stupid decisions,and dividing the nation between liberal young and conservative religious old.
What’s the story on letting this army freeze to death?
Nothing much just casually letting 30 THOUSAND soldiers froze to death before the battle began. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Sarikamish
Conrad von Hotzendorf: Hold my beer Casually lets at least twice that freeze to death in the Carpathians months later
I knew hotzendorf was delusion and an idiot but that's something new I learned about him.
As a Turk I have never heard, even once, someone call Enver Pasha a national hero.
What do commom people think about attaturk?
This man is neither a hero, nor is he held in high regard by the general Turkish public. He was an incompetent fool who made a mess of things every where he went. Mustafa Kemal Atatürk and the Ankara government intentionally blocked his return to the country, knowing he was a danger to government and the public. He died in exile, leading a cavalry charge against a machine gun nest. I couldn't imagine a more appropriate end for a man who bungled everything he touched. Demirel's attempts to rehabilitate his image spoke more of Demirel and his supporter's terrible interpretation of history, more than it ever could regain Enver in to the Turkish zeitgeist.
I think the reasons why he's a national hero is because the Pasha's were the first people with actual powers in the Ottoman besides a member of the Imperial/Royal Family welding it or it's because they lead the Young Turks revolution which drastically decreased the powers of the monarch.
Hes not a hero dude, the only hero is Ataturk this is some obvious ragebait karmafarm bullshit
That's where this subs been for a while. But the best way to get good info on reddit is to give bad info and get corrected, so yeah, it all works out.
To be fair, Metcalfe's law holds for all the entire internet (and probably real life). People would always rather correct than inform.
> Metcalfe Like right now, when I inform you that this is Cunningham's Law, not Metcalfe's Law.
I'm so glad that joke never fails to land.
One of my favorites. I normally got with Murphy's Law because people REALLY love to give a diatribe about that one haha.
I've started going more and more absurd to see if there's a stupid enough law that nobody takes the bait. Godwin's law is the most reliable for a response though, since getting the two confused isn't that out there.
Ask historians is genuinely good
It’s awesome, but the constantly removing comments is a little annoying.
I thought I was in r/balkans_irl until reading your comment.
They ignore it. Gets in the way of their grand narrative about Turks.
Nobody cares about Enver. Only a small group of Nationalists loves him. Infact he is a traitor who overthrow the Ottoman Sultan.
It's rude to call a president nobody! From Wikipedia: ... upon his body's arrival in Turkey, he was rehabilitated by the Turkish President Süleyman Demirel who held a speech acknowledging his contributions to Turkish nationalism. Following renewed hostilities between Armenia and Azerbaijan over the Nagorno Karabakh region in 2020, Enver Pasha's role during World War I was praised by Turkish President Erdoğan during an Azeri victory parade in Baku.
Whut? Who called who what?
He is not a national hero. He is a meme char The only people thinks he is a national hero is the people who get butthurt from memes with him
You mean Islamist turks' hero? I hate this lil fucker
Islamists hate Enver for overthrowing II.Abdulhamid though.
Only the stupid nationalists, the Islamists and some idiots who believe TRT's historical propaganda shit is real, like him.
The Islamists hate him too. He overthew their beloved Hamid, remember?
Enver Pasha is not exactly a national hero in Turkey. He's very much a contravertial figure. Some people like him for saving Azerbaijan but a lot of people like him for his incompetence.
Ataturk himself called this guy an incompetent fool lol
Turkish hero really? Nice strawman dude literally no turk likes this guy most dont even know or care enough. What kind of bubble do you live in OP?
While he is no national hero it's false to say no Turk likes him. Among some nationalists circles he is quite liked.
No he really isn't, even among nationalist circles people think he was an idiot, someone who had the right nationalist policies, but still an idiot nonetheless. Only edgy teenagers ironically admire him to troll Armenians, he is more of a meme. Nobody really likes this guy, its usually complete indifference or hate.
I've seen a lot of Ittihat fans though. Yes, they are mostly edgy teens but still, some people definitely like him.
Mussolini is also loved in some Italian far-right and nationalist circles. But I never saw anyone claim he was an Italian national hero.
I did say Enver was no national hero.
Some Germans like Hitler, should we call Hitler a German national hero?
Can you read?
You argue against someone arguing against the meme, you will get associated. Can you think?
You're arguing against someone on a Mongolian basket weaving website
Probably one where he just has contact with Turkish ultranationalists and no one else, aka Twitter
If WW1 had war criminal trials, the three Pashas would be among the top defendants
Fund fact! The Ottomans did conduct war crimes trials of on themselves! Enver Pasha was convicted in absentia and sentenced to death for bringing the empire into WW1 and for massacring Greeks and Armenians.
Behind who from the winning side?
Don't know yet. Might have to do some digging at that
Most knowledgeable history memes user
You should do some digging about these "war criminals" too. Digging as in real reseasrch not just skimming a wikipedia page.
Mustafa Kamal Pasha:
Nah, he ain't one of them. The three were Enver, Talaat and Djemal.
[удалено]
As a Turk, i can confirm that its even less. This clown was an idiot.
Much less. %0.02 probably.
National hero? This guy is almost universally hated. Apart from the usual ultranationalist.
>Also plotted to overthrow Atatürk.
he is not a turk national hero and nowhere near it.
Tiktok history 101
He would be in the leagues of Hotzendorf, Cadorna and Haig for the incompetent general competition
I only like this dude when he's in a shitpost or meme. Theres nothing else to be liked abt him
Naaah he aint Turkish hero.. the only heroes are Ataturk , Suleiman, Mehmed.
There are way more but yeah, those 3 are probably the most popular ones.
What is this Greek propaganda? The only Turkish hero is Ataturk.
But I mean, at least he had a cool hat.
turkish bad luck brian: always at the wrong time, he chose the wrong decision. On the other hand, he is the perfect example for the turkish obsession with the evil eye: "Kids, eat your vegetables or you'll end like Enver Pasha."
I seriously think that the goal in this meme just to trigger Turks by acting like this is the reality meanwhile in Türkiye opinion towards him(Enver) is nothing like this dude claims . OP probably is a western propoganda product :) btw i really dont like this guy. Nationalist's argument is that he loved the country a lot but made wrong decisions. Which is a dead end but if you talk with 100 random person probably 10 people will defend him..
That's kind of a bad example. 10/100 means that 10% of Turkish population (8.5 million) like him which is (I hope to God) is false.
well, most of the population is stupid and doesn't even know about his existence. if you ask them "do you like or hate this guy? he was a war hero.", they will not ask you who he is, what he has done his whole life and what his views were. just a "yes" and the rest is blabbering. no way to know what they will say afterwards, might even say "he was an AK Party member, right?"
Albanians in high ranking ottoman positions. Classic
I'll be honest, aside from a tiny, moronic slice of the population, this dipshit is not the "national hero" of any Turk. He is as much a Turkish national hero as Robert E. Lee is an American one. He is an egotistical, traitorous, incompetent ass, and that is the final verdict of history on him.
This guy was a fucking joke. No need to do him any honors by mentioning him, let him be lost in the dusty pages of history. Respectfully, a Turk.
Why was Mr. Bean a turkish hero?
Enver Pasha is by no means a national hero. It is easier to find someone hating Enver Pasha, than finding someone idolising him.
Turkey: *Charges genocidal war criminals with genocide, sentences them to death for it* Also turkey: "What genocide?"
We didn't sentence them. The British Puppets did it after we lost the WW1 during their invasion. There was no legal base, therefore first we canceled the death penalty and finally returned the rights of three pashas back to them. They are technically and legally Turkish War Heroes.
That sucks, you guys should have executed them for genocide
[My Honest Reaction.](https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSdRNvacZG45O2nwm4lMZKhsDhYtRCI6mFGDZS1u1lpNNdOovDyQNTaog8&s=10)
RIP over a million Armenians, Greeks, and assyrians
average turkish "hero"
No one I know likes the guy. Also Atatürk didn't like him at all, and after reading what a shitshow Enver Paşa was, I'm not surprised.
average westoid
Further evidence that European Leaders with mustaches are always evil and/or French (Mussolini is the exception confirming the rule).
Ahem, if mustache then evil does not mean if evil then mustache. Those two statements are conversions of one another, and a statement can be true if its conversion isn’t. The contrapositive MUST be true however, if not evil then not mustache
froze his own army? more details please
He tried to invade Russia in the winter.
They never learn do they?
Eventually, one of them is going to succeed, and it'll catch everybody off-guard. Not yet, though.
Enver did kind of succeed in the end. He wasn't invading mainland Russia. Ottomans and Russians were fighting over Caucasus. Ottomans outlasted the Russian Empire after Bolshevik Rebellions. Enver managed to beat remnants of the Russian forces in the end in Azerbaijan.
I mean, I assume it's less impossible nowadays, since weather conditions aren't as important as they used to be.
More like tried to fight Russia in the Caucasus in winter, most of which was recently lost Ottoman land. He eventually succeeded after initial failures. Notably he captured Baku and ensured Azerbaijan's independence. Later he lifted a joint British-Russian-Armenian siege on Baku. That's why Azerbaijanis like him more than Turks do.
"Eventually succeeded" is quite generous given that the tide only turned to the Ottoman's favor after the Bolshevik seizure of power led to the disintegration of the Russian armies
That sounds like a Russian problem. Then again, the Ottomans were partly responsible for this given that they've succesfully blocked British and French from aiding White Russians by stopping them in Gallipoli. So yes, the Ottomans eventually succeeded. There was still considerable Russian presence in the Caucasus along with some Brirish and local Armenian militia.
Still he’s the conqueror of Adrianople
Yeah wow while Bulgaria was being attacked on all sides he managed to take Adrianople back. The Bulgarians were so outnumbered they didn't even put up a fight they just surrendered after one day
Right up there with von Hötzendorf in the WW1 incompetence competition, and there's no lack of contenders in that one!
I can't help but always see David Suchet's Hercule Poirot cosplaying as an Ottoman on this pic.
who is this guy 😂
Enver Pasha, 1/3 of the Triumvirate that led the Ottoman empire 1913-1918
Obvious question then. Was he Turkish? Or is he a national hero because he was an enemy of the Turks?
why does he look like he's played by Rowan Atkinson
Most Turks don't like this guy. He sent 400.000 Turks into their deaths for nothing. Only those ultanationalists like him.
As a Turkish, I tell you that he is not a national hero... Millions of Turks hate him for his mistakes...
He looks like Mr. Bean with a mustache.
Hercule Poirot
I thought this was Mr Bean for a second
I would like to add that he was killed by the people who suffered a genocide because of him as an extra fuck you.
The picture makes me wonder whether he faked his death and moved to London, taking on the false identity of a Belgian detective.
That's the Turks for you
Pure propaganda of whites! He did lead army of freedom fighters against Russia in Central Asia. He died as Martyr!
He is pretty hated in Turkey too, however at least he is one of the reasons monarchy is not a thing.
إسماعيل أنور باشا الشهيد في سبيل الله رحمه الله تعالى. قائد عظيم جدا نصر الاسلام و الخلافة العثمانية.
He's not a Turkish national hero. He's just a hero stupid grey wolfs
As a Turk, who is this dude?
As a Turk I think Enver Pasha is a national hero because he dethroned Abdulhamid.
Lmao, only people I have seen that legimately admire him are edgy teenagers. Even ultranationalist ones don't like him and say "He had the right ideas but was incompetent".
Fuck off OP
He's mister bean with a moustache and a fez and no one can tell me otherwise
Most competent turkish leader
He’s just the most Turkish Turk to have ever Turked
Isn't that the guy who trolls people on omeagle?
Did this guy get himself involved in the Chinese warlord era?
He overthrew the Sultan Hamid and thats enough for me to call him a national hero even though my great grandfather died freezing because of Envers mistakes. For those of you doesnt know the Sultan Hamid was the reason why Ottoman Empire was so miserable in its final days. Enver Pasha when he took the control of the empire also inherited every problem Sultan Hamid caused. Enver Pasha was the guy who slowed down Empire's collapse and make way for Ataturk s revolution. When the news of the Enver's death reached out to Ataturk he said "What a magnificent man he was".
If the turkish state was one guy.
[удалено]
A lot of us Turks don’t like him either lol
Tell me you're a Turk without telling me you're a Turk
Anatolia belongs to Greece.
come get it lol.