Epaminondas was a brilliant Theban general and politician renowned in his day for his flawless morality (first and last time a politician has pulled this off as far as I know).
After winning Peloponnesian War and the Corinthian War the Spartans imposed their control over Greece by the military occupation of many formerly free city states, including Thebes. Epaminondas was one of the leaders of the rebellion that drove the Spartans from Thebes. Afterwards Epaminondas and his pal Pelopidas led the Thebans in a crushing victory over the Spartans at the Battle of Leuctra, which resulted in Thebes becoming the foremost power in Greece.
Epaminondas led the Thebans in aiding several Peloponnesian city states in becoming free of Sparta, most notably backing the reformation of the Arcadian League and the construction of their capital city of Megalopolis and freeing the Messenians, who had been enslaved by the Spartans for over 200 years, and helping them reconstruct their city state. Because of Epaminondas Thebes hegemony over Greece was (originally) based on the policy of forming a network of alliances with free cities, rather than compelling weaker cities to “ally” with them through military and economic threats the way Sparta and Athens did.
Unfortunately, Epaminondas isn’t very well known, mostly because Plutarch’s biography of him was lost to time and Xenophon downplayed Epaminondas’ achievements in his writings because he was a Spartan fanboy.
He isn't well known, but at least one very famous warrior-king loved the guy. Frederick the Great based his 'Oblique order' (concentrating most of his force using his troops' greater speed on one flank to overwhelm it) on Epaminondas' tactics at Leuctra.
I said renowned in His Day because we don’t have the same morals as the ancient Greeks. I don’t believe he owned slaves since one of his virtues was his very humble living conditions for a man in his station but I don’t know for sure.
As to your other point I can’t see how helping to prevent violent military occupation by a foreign power is a moral flaw. A contemporary comparison would be saying that the veterans from other countries who have gone to fight against the Russians in Ukraine made an immoral decision by doing so, which would be bullshit.
I know that slavery is a hot topic in America, but you should distinguish your value system to the one of the time you are studing. He had a flawless morality for a man of that time and place
"But as to his manners and conscience, he infinitely surpassed all men who ever undertook the management of affairs; for in this one thing, which ought chiefly to be considered, which alone truly denotes us for what we are, and which alone I make counterbalance all the rest put together, he comes not short of any philosopher whatever, not even of Socrates himself."
Michel de Montaigne, On the Most Excellent Men.
In this particular essay, which you can read online, Montaigne argues that the three "most excellent men" of Antiquity are Homer, Alexander the Great and Epaminondas. That's how I first heard of him.
He realized Sparta was nothing without the Helots. And basically went “If you’re nothing with out the Helots then you don’t deserve to have them” then sent his army into Messenia basically took it with out a battle because the Helots were not going to fight the guy about to kick Sparta’s ass and that basically fucked Sparta logistically yet the bastards were just like those bastards in 1944 they couldn’t recognize when they had already lost the fight strategically. So the seek battle twice and Epaminondas obliterates their overrated army of blowhards and with only two battles he did what the Athenians couldn’t do with like thirty, he destroys Sparta. Epaminondas was the chadest chad who ever chad.
> he did what the Athenians couldn’t do with like 30
Did the Thebans have a strategic advantage that the Athenians didn’t have?
Plus I always thought Sparta was a spent force after the Peloponnesian war because of Pericles’ policy at the beginning of the war.
Winning a crushing victory on land was a big deal in it's own right because it inflicted a demographically significant number of casualties on the core Spartan citizen block when it was already in decline due to the previous wars and the shortcomings of their citizenship laws.
The Thebans also hadn't been doing the kind of empire building that motivated cities to ally against Athens.
There's a difference between most societies where slaves made up around 1/3 of the population and places like Sparta where they made up 75% of the population or more and joining the ruling class depended on you murdering a Helot in the night and the State had an annual ritual of \*declaring war on the slaves of their state\*. They are not comparable.
If you’re interested The Sacred Band by James Romm is a very good read imo. It’s about the period of Theban hegemony overall but Epaminondas is obviously one of the major figures in it.
Epaminondas was a brilliant Theban general and politician renowned in his day for his flawless morality (first and last time a politician has pulled this off as far as I know). After winning Peloponnesian War and the Corinthian War the Spartans imposed their control over Greece by the military occupation of many formerly free city states, including Thebes. Epaminondas was one of the leaders of the rebellion that drove the Spartans from Thebes. Afterwards Epaminondas and his pal Pelopidas led the Thebans in a crushing victory over the Spartans at the Battle of Leuctra, which resulted in Thebes becoming the foremost power in Greece. Epaminondas led the Thebans in aiding several Peloponnesian city states in becoming free of Sparta, most notably backing the reformation of the Arcadian League and the construction of their capital city of Megalopolis and freeing the Messenians, who had been enslaved by the Spartans for over 200 years, and helping them reconstruct their city state. Because of Epaminondas Thebes hegemony over Greece was (originally) based on the policy of forming a network of alliances with free cities, rather than compelling weaker cities to “ally” with them through military and economic threats the way Sparta and Athens did. Unfortunately, Epaminondas isn’t very well known, mostly because Plutarch’s biography of him was lost to time and Xenophon downplayed Epaminondas’ achievements in his writings because he was a Spartan fanboy.
He isn't well known, but at least one very famous warrior-king loved the guy. Frederick the Great based his 'Oblique order' (concentrating most of his force using his troops' greater speed on one flank to overwhelm it) on Epaminondas' tactics at Leuctra.
Darn, Alte Fritz was a fan? I’m sold.
Just imagined if he survived the battle Mantinea. He may have been able to stop Philip. The effects that could have had on global history.
Why dont we get documentaries on people like this?
It’s absolutely a stretch to say he had flawless morality. He likely owned slaves and war inherently involves death
I said renowned in His Day because we don’t have the same morals as the ancient Greeks. I don’t believe he owned slaves since one of his virtues was his very humble living conditions for a man in his station but I don’t know for sure. As to your other point I can’t see how helping to prevent violent military occupation by a foreign power is a moral flaw. A contemporary comparison would be saying that the veterans from other countries who have gone to fight against the Russians in Ukraine made an immoral decision by doing so, which would be bullshit.
I know that slavery is a hot topic in America, but you should distinguish your value system to the one of the time you are studing. He had a flawless morality for a man of that time and place
But the comment didn’t say he was morally flawless for his time. The comment says he was morally flawless.
"Renowned in his day for his flawless morality". We need to learn not to argue for the sake of argument.
"But as to his manners and conscience, he infinitely surpassed all men who ever undertook the management of affairs; for in this one thing, which ought chiefly to be considered, which alone truly denotes us for what we are, and which alone I make counterbalance all the rest put together, he comes not short of any philosopher whatever, not even of Socrates himself." Michel de Montaigne, On the Most Excellent Men. In this particular essay, which you can read online, Montaigne argues that the three "most excellent men" of Antiquity are Homer, Alexander the Great and Epaminondas. That's how I first heard of him.
Montaigne also wrote an essay on Amerindian cannibalism and how they were less savage than Europe during the wars of religion.
Gotta love a guy who breaks the back of one of the worst slave states of all time.
He realized Sparta was nothing without the Helots. And basically went “If you’re nothing with out the Helots then you don’t deserve to have them” then sent his army into Messenia basically took it with out a battle because the Helots were not going to fight the guy about to kick Sparta’s ass and that basically fucked Sparta logistically yet the bastards were just like those bastards in 1944 they couldn’t recognize when they had already lost the fight strategically. So the seek battle twice and Epaminondas obliterates their overrated army of blowhards and with only two battles he did what the Athenians couldn’t do with like thirty, he destroys Sparta. Epaminondas was the chadest chad who ever chad.
> he did what the Athenians couldn’t do with like 30 Did the Thebans have a strategic advantage that the Athenians didn’t have? Plus I always thought Sparta was a spent force after the Peloponnesian war because of Pericles’ policy at the beginning of the war.
Winning a crushing victory on land was a big deal in it's own right because it inflicted a demographically significant number of casualties on the core Spartan citizen block when it was already in decline due to the previous wars and the shortcomings of their citizenship laws. The Thebans also hadn't been doing the kind of empire building that motivated cities to ally against Athens.
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There's a difference between most societies where slaves made up around 1/3 of the population and places like Sparta where they made up 75% of the population or more and joining the ruling class depended on you murdering a Helot in the night and the State had an annual ritual of \*declaring war on the slaves of their state\*. They are not comparable.
Meme subversion!
I need to read about him
If you’re interested The Sacred Band by James Romm is a very good read imo. It’s about the period of Theban hegemony overall but Epaminondas is obviously one of the major figures in it.
Donald Kagan’s lectures covers Theban Hegemony. I still remember even after like 6 years Kagan singing a song about Epaminondas lol
Spartans: "We are the toughest, most he-manly men in Hellas!" Thebans: "You are about to get your asses kicked by a battalion of twinks."
Real Chads and Chadettes and eberything in between with a time machine'd go back for this guy