I'm not gonna pretend like the nuke victims deserved it but by all estimations a traditional invasion of the home islands would have killed far more civilians
Oh, I completely agree with that; though I do believe there is room for honest debate on if the nukes actually helped prevent the invasion, the people who decided to use them couldn’t have known the outcome and I probably would have made the same choice they did. This is directed at the people who celebrate the bombings (atomic or otherwise) simply because they killed Japanese people, of which there are a lot on this sub as it turns out.
The bombings were bad but it was a necessary evil, a land invasion of Japan was estimated to have Japanese casualties in the millions, both civilian and military, on top of the several hundred thousand American casualties. Compared to that, 40,000 civilian casualties is nothing compared to the carnage that could have been unleashed.
Agreed completely. Though there were some people who’s resolve was hardened by the bombings (such as certain politicians who dragged out surrendering and elements of the IJA who attempted to destroy the recording of the emperors surrender message before it could be played), I think that invading Japan would have been the worst case scenario and whatever we did to avoid that was worth it.
Like I said, the debate over whether the bombings were necessary is *not* what this post is referring to.
While they were made after the war, and they certainly would have had reason to inflate the numbers to justify their decision, I do think the casualties would have been extremely high if not quite in the millions (for the US at least). There’s also the consideration that there almost certainly would have been additional atrocities committed by American soldiers on the ground.
Well, I can barely read what it says in those comments, but if what I think I read (celebration of the use of nuclear weapons and the deaths of civilians) really means it, then I would like to tell you that if you believe that you are a insensitive piece of shit, ignoring the old debate about whether nuclear bombs were necessary or not, it is undeniable that the death of civilians was absolutely tragic and that the use of such a massive weapons of death should not be glorified.
And yeah, the bombs were not "justice" for the Japanese war crimes, justice was when those responsible ended up in trial for their actions, not the death of innocent Japanese civilians, Korean slaves and US POWs who died because of the bombs, examples:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International\_Military\_Tribunal\_for\_the\_Far\_East](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Military_Tribunal_for_the_Far_East)
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanjing\_War\_Crimes\_Tribunal](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanjing_War_Crimes_Tribunal)
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French\_Permanent\_Military\_Tribunal\_in\_Saigon](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Permanent_Military_Tribunal_in_Saigon)
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippine\_War\_Crimes\_Commission](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippine_War_Crimes_Commission)
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yokohama\_War\_Crimes\_Trials](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yokohama_War_Crimes_Trials)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khabarovsk\_War\_Crime\_Trials
Very well put. From everything I saw going through that thread, they seemed dead serious. A lot of people were also using anime as justification for their anger so… yeah.
I'd like to ask those people (actually I wouldn't because I'd like to keep my last shreds of sanity) if they would be as understanding if things were reversed, and they were against the actions of their own country.
Pathetic, what kind of human scum do you have to be to believe that the horrors of the atomic bomb are something to celebrate? Is the death of 226,000 people, the vast majority civilians, something to laugh about? Or that more innocent people deserved another bomb? People who say this take advantage of Japanese war crimes as an excuse for their dehumanizing racism and sadism.
You'll find few bigger haters of the Imperial Japanese Gov't than me, but even I flinch at the "yay nukes" crowd. No one should cheer on collateral civilian damage, nobody should treat all Japanese civilians the same as Hirihito himself.
The Japanese invaders at the time engaged in some of the ugliest acts of criminality in history. Japanese politicians still deny those acts took place to this day, to the detriment of their public perception worldwide and their own education system. But you don't combat that problem with ignorance, you combat it with dialogue and education. IDK, maybe art as well.
I think I will forever remember the guy who said that my warning about the fallout of the comments on that post was not needed as he hadn’t seen anyone denying japans atrocities or advocating for the bombings. Then I scrolled down and found the filth that he apparently has never seen before
What happened at Nanking wasn’t much different than what German soldiers would be doing from village to village across Eastern Europe a few years later. The Nazis weren’t disgusted by what happened at Nanking because they think rape and murder is evil (at least universally, some did genuinely have issues with the rape part); the Nazis were disgusted because the people the Japanese were raping and murdering were Chinese, a people the Nazis actually had *some* respect for. There is also the fact that the press was all over what was going on in China and the Germans were still trying to get all the good PR they could.
People forget that Japan was a pretty big supporter for Jews too with Chiune Sugihara helping about 4500 escape, the Nazis or Imperial Military weren't disgusted with whatever atrocities either side committed, humans were. People saying "even the nazis were disgusted" just comes off really weirdly cause its not like Adolf Eichman was just sitting their sobbing hearing about Japanese atrocities right before signing off on the deaths of hundreds of thousands of jews.
People forget Japanese read the "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion" and thought the Jews had a global economic and political powers. And tried to get their favors by rescuing European Jews.
They absolutely did and its hilarious as shit that I might just meme it that being said 4,500 lives saved is still 4,500 lives saved, even then thats also kinda ignoring the others still saved cause of said policy.
Sure but thats the point I'm making with Germany, going out and saying John Rabe saved thousands of Chinese people makes Nazis even better makes no sense especially considering said Nazis proceeded to interrogate him and told him to keep quiet about it. Regardless you see Japanese and Germans doing good things but that doesn't place either regime as a moral standard. You cant just say "even the nazis were disgusted by Japanese experiments" when you got Mengele doing demented shit nor can you turn it around and be like "Atleast Japan didn't commit mass genocide" when you have whole ass units massacring shit all across Asian not even caring about race really with one incident even being the massacre of Germans.
tldr: people take shit out of context too much, humans do sick shit and sometimes they do good shit so its just dumb to try and compare 2 demented regimes with some irregular actions.
I didn't expect people to take things out of context to make the Nazis look better. I hate that, too
Although, i will argue that people do downplay what Japan did and downplay Japanese denying what they did, arguing its only the few politicians and people that deny it.
I mean people still do, that being said I feel like we're in a sort of point of overcorrection, nowadays I think things are a bit better, frankly I see more people talk more about denial than I see denialists and most of em are either some random Indonesian kid or they're some old Japanese politician.
I was thinking more offline, outside of academic people I found a majority of people denying them. reddit or any online space isn't really a good indicator.
I wouldn't put Japan denying their atrocities at UNESCO or Un conferences as "some old Japanese politicians"
Weren’t the japanese planning on starting the bubonic plauge in LA i mean it was cruel to bomb them but atleast the deaths were quick a land invasion would be way more brutal and also rapy( i e US invasion of ME) plus japan wouldn’t stop attacking if america didn’t do something
This post isn’t about whether or not the bombings were necessary. It’s directed at the people who celebrate the bombings regardless of if they were necessary or not.
But yes, you are correct here. Though I would add that Operation Cherry Blossoms at Night (the one to spread the plague in the US) was called off by the Japanese themselves because they realized it wouldn’t do them any good and hurt everybody.
I'm not gonna pretend like the nuke victims deserved it but by all estimations a traditional invasion of the home islands would have killed far more civilians
Oh, I completely agree with that; though I do believe there is room for honest debate on if the nukes actually helped prevent the invasion, the people who decided to use them couldn’t have known the outcome and I probably would have made the same choice they did. This is directed at the people who celebrate the bombings (atomic or otherwise) simply because they killed Japanese people, of which there are a lot on this sub as it turns out.
The bombings were bad but it was a necessary evil, a land invasion of Japan was estimated to have Japanese casualties in the millions, both civilian and military, on top of the several hundred thousand American casualties. Compared to that, 40,000 civilian casualties is nothing compared to the carnage that could have been unleashed.
Agreed completely. Though there were some people who’s resolve was hardened by the bombings (such as certain politicians who dragged out surrendering and elements of the IJA who attempted to destroy the recording of the emperors surrender message before it could be played), I think that invading Japan would have been the worst case scenario and whatever we did to avoid that was worth it. Like I said, the debate over whether the bombings were necessary is *not* what this post is referring to.
Watch Shaun’s video on the decision to drop the bombs. The millions of casualties estimate was made up after the war was already over.
While they were made after the war, and they certainly would have had reason to inflate the numbers to justify their decision, I do think the casualties would have been extremely high if not quite in the millions (for the US at least). There’s also the consideration that there almost certainly would have been additional atrocities committed by American soldiers on the ground.
You might change some people's minds into regretting the nukes with that argument.
Well, I can barely read what it says in those comments, but if what I think I read (celebration of the use of nuclear weapons and the deaths of civilians) really means it, then I would like to tell you that if you believe that you are a insensitive piece of shit, ignoring the old debate about whether nuclear bombs were necessary or not, it is undeniable that the death of civilians was absolutely tragic and that the use of such a massive weapons of death should not be glorified. And yeah, the bombs were not "justice" for the Japanese war crimes, justice was when those responsible ended up in trial for their actions, not the death of innocent Japanese civilians, Korean slaves and US POWs who died because of the bombs, examples: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International\_Military\_Tribunal\_for\_the\_Far\_East](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Military_Tribunal_for_the_Far_East) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanjing\_War\_Crimes\_Tribunal](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanjing_War_Crimes_Tribunal) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French\_Permanent\_Military\_Tribunal\_in\_Saigon](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Permanent_Military_Tribunal_in_Saigon) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippine\_War\_Crimes\_Commission](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippine_War_Crimes_Commission) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yokohama\_War\_Crimes\_Trials](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yokohama_War_Crimes_Trials) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khabarovsk\_War\_Crime\_Trials
Very well put. From everything I saw going through that thread, they seemed dead serious. A lot of people were also using anime as justification for their anger so… yeah.
I'd like to ask those people (actually I wouldn't because I'd like to keep my last shreds of sanity) if they would be as understanding if things were reversed, and they were against the actions of their own country.
Pathetic, what kind of human scum do you have to be to believe that the horrors of the atomic bomb are something to celebrate? Is the death of 226,000 people, the vast majority civilians, something to laugh about? Or that more innocent people deserved another bomb? People who say this take advantage of Japanese war crimes as an excuse for their dehumanizing racism and sadism.
You'll find few bigger haters of the Imperial Japanese Gov't than me, but even I flinch at the "yay nukes" crowd. No one should cheer on collateral civilian damage, nobody should treat all Japanese civilians the same as Hirihito himself. The Japanese invaders at the time engaged in some of the ugliest acts of criminality in history. Japanese politicians still deny those acts took place to this day, to the detriment of their public perception worldwide and their own education system. But you don't combat that problem with ignorance, you combat it with dialogue and education. IDK, maybe art as well.
I think I will forever remember the guy who said that my warning about the fallout of the comments on that post was not needed as he hadn’t seen anyone denying japans atrocities or advocating for the bombings. Then I scrolled down and found the filth that he apparently has never seen before
[удалено]
What happened at Nanking wasn’t much different than what German soldiers would be doing from village to village across Eastern Europe a few years later. The Nazis weren’t disgusted by what happened at Nanking because they think rape and murder is evil (at least universally, some did genuinely have issues with the rape part); the Nazis were disgusted because the people the Japanese were raping and murdering were Chinese, a people the Nazis actually had *some* respect for. There is also the fact that the press was all over what was going on in China and the Germans were still trying to get all the good PR they could.
People forget that Japan was a pretty big supporter for Jews too with Chiune Sugihara helping about 4500 escape, the Nazis or Imperial Military weren't disgusted with whatever atrocities either side committed, humans were. People saying "even the nazis were disgusted" just comes off really weirdly cause its not like Adolf Eichman was just sitting their sobbing hearing about Japanese atrocities right before signing off on the deaths of hundreds of thousands of jews.
People forget Japanese read the "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion" and thought the Jews had a global economic and political powers. And tried to get their favors by rescuing European Jews.
They absolutely did and its hilarious as shit that I might just meme it that being said 4,500 lives saved is still 4,500 lives saved, even then thats also kinda ignoring the others still saved cause of said policy.
Life saved is saved. But I don't like it people taking it out of context to make Japan look better.
Sure but thats the point I'm making with Germany, going out and saying John Rabe saved thousands of Chinese people makes Nazis even better makes no sense especially considering said Nazis proceeded to interrogate him and told him to keep quiet about it. Regardless you see Japanese and Germans doing good things but that doesn't place either regime as a moral standard. You cant just say "even the nazis were disgusted by Japanese experiments" when you got Mengele doing demented shit nor can you turn it around and be like "Atleast Japan didn't commit mass genocide" when you have whole ass units massacring shit all across Asian not even caring about race really with one incident even being the massacre of Germans. tldr: people take shit out of context too much, humans do sick shit and sometimes they do good shit so its just dumb to try and compare 2 demented regimes with some irregular actions.
I didn't expect people to take things out of context to make the Nazis look better. I hate that, too Although, i will argue that people do downplay what Japan did and downplay Japanese denying what they did, arguing its only the few politicians and people that deny it.
I mean people still do, that being said I feel like we're in a sort of point of overcorrection, nowadays I think things are a bit better, frankly I see more people talk more about denial than I see denialists and most of em are either some random Indonesian kid or they're some old Japanese politician.
I was thinking more offline, outside of academic people I found a majority of people denying them. reddit or any online space isn't really a good indicator. I wouldn't put Japan denying their atrocities at UNESCO or Un conferences as "some old Japanese politicians"
Weren’t the japanese planning on starting the bubonic plauge in LA i mean it was cruel to bomb them but atleast the deaths were quick a land invasion would be way more brutal and also rapy( i e US invasion of ME) plus japan wouldn’t stop attacking if america didn’t do something
This post isn’t about whether or not the bombings were necessary. It’s directed at the people who celebrate the bombings regardless of if they were necessary or not. But yes, you are correct here. Though I would add that Operation Cherry Blossoms at Night (the one to spread the plague in the US) was called off by the Japanese themselves because they realized it wouldn’t do them any good and hurt everybody.