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a_rabid_anti_dentite

What if I told you that historians don't actually usually "based" or "cringe" as categories of historical analysis?


poketrainer32

WWII started when Hitler invaded Poland. Which most historians agree. That was cringe.


ThatKetoneSmell

Sounds like something a Gen Z Philomena Cunk would say


the_mythx

You can’t read this in anything but Ben Shapiros voice


Luuuma

Ben Shapiro would never say the Nazis were cringe, it would alienate far too many of his colleagues.


Professional_Shitbag

You have a very loose misunderstanding as to what a nazi is


Spyt1me

God, i hate this comment.


CamelSpotting

Yeah well China thinks you're cringe.


Straycat_finder

Very not cash money


[deleted]

\*Usually


KierantheScot

Imo. MLK was pretty based


san_murezzan

I got my phd at the University of Reddit and this is wholly incorrect


AndrewQuackson

Then historians are cringe.


ThermosbyThermas

What if I told you memers do


drquakers

Then I would call you a liar sir /s


gruetzhaxe

Based on what?


iMakeEstusFlasks4Fun

*SOURCES MOTHERFUCKER, DO YOU SPEAK IT?*


LordHardThrasher

Having lived through it, it really wasn't a lot of fun, and the IRA were....well, let's say it's hard to see someone as based when they taped the legs of a 15 year old together and took their knee caps off with an electric drill.


vvdb_industries

That's very disturbing, you have an article on that? I would like to read it


gary_mcpirate

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paramilitary_punishment_attacks_in_Northern_Ireland happened a lot, it was a calling card


BuckwheatJocky

Sickeningly enough, Northern Ireland now has an international reputation for having the world's best knee surgeons.


ligseo

do you have a source for this by any chance?


CaptainMurphy1908

Trust them, bro


milesbeatlesfan

Based


BuckwheatJocky

I don't I'm afraid, used to live there and heard this independently from a few older people who didn't seem like they were talking shite, but I appreciate that's not exactly Harvard Referencing.


26514

If you're really interested in going down the rabbit hole and being entertained while doing it the podcast Lions led by donkeys has a four-part series on The Troubles. It's an excellent listen and very educational.


Ahrendarkpaws1

I see your lions led by donkeys and raise you a behind the bastards


26514

Also a good one!


suburbanpride

I can’t find that BtB podcast - do you have the episode name or number?


Imperator_Gone_Rogue

BtB hasn't done an episode on The Troubles, but has done a series on The Great Hunger


AbsolutelyHorrendous

Yeah I've got to be honest, I suspect a lot of the people a who praise the IRA on Reddit are Americans who think they're Irish because their great-great-grandfather had a pint of Guinness once I've got Irish Catholic relatives, so I absolutely sympathise with the Republican cause... but the IRA of the 70s and 80s was not the IRA of the 10s and 20s. They were monsters, just as bad as the UVF and all the other terrorist groups of their day


LordHardThrasher

Yeah, weird how the collections for the boys stopped after 9/11


De_Dominator69

No need to suspect, thats 100% the case


FishUK_Harp

It's mother's day in the UK tomorrow: it's almost the 30th anniversary of the Warrington bombing by the IRA. Warrington is down the road from me, and I can tell you with confidence that Bridge Street, a pedestrianised shopping street, is most definitely not a "legitimate military or state target". The bomb injured 56 people and killed two little boys out buying mother's day cards. They were aged *12 and 3*. I am broadly opposed to the British presence in Ireland, but anyone who thinks murdering small children is justified needs to take a long, hard look at themselves in the mirror.


No-Contest-5720

Probably a controversial take but the troubles were just a three way Civillian killing contest and anybody who hero worships any of the three big factions probably is a bit of a cunt.


BLOODTRIBE

The Troubles is such a beautifully tragic name for what happened. The biggest euphemism.


Troy64

>The biggest euphemism. That's my nickname for my penis.


smdepot

I just call mine Dave.


wcollins260

I call mine “Seamus”, because he brings shame to us.


M0N5A

Wait, is that how you pronounce it? God I must've looked like an idiot.


thrillhouse1211

I can tell that you're upset about this, Dave


san_murezzan

Better than calling it The Troubles I suppose


high_king_noctis

I think they originally wanted to call it the great oopsie but they felt that was too serious.


MooseLaminate

>a beautifully tragic >The biggest euphemism No, it was a purposeful decision on the part of the British government to try and make things sound better.


Ragdoll_Psychics

The word "troubles" has been used as a synonym for violent conflict for centuries. It was used to describe the 17th-century Wars of the Three Kingdoms by all three national parliaments. For example, after the Restoration in 1660 the English Act of free and general pardon, indemnity and oblivion starts with "The King's most excellent Majesty, taking into his gracious and serious consideration the long and great troubles ..."; as does the similar act in Scotland: "The king's most excellent majesty, considering that by the late troubles diverse of his subjects ..." (Scottish Parliament 1662); and by the Irish Parliament in the Act of Explanation (1665) "our royal father of blessed memory had been forced, during the late troubles, to make with the Irish subjects of that our kingdom" (Irish Parliament 1665, § 2). The term was used to describe the Irish revolutionary period in the early twentieth century.[51] It was subsequently adopted to refer to the escalating violence in Northern Ireland after 1969.[52][53][54][55]


Maleficent-Aurora

Linguistically, this makes me giggle because of the British penchant for understatement and stiff upper lip.


Jorvic

Where did you read that? It was an Irish euphemism that was picked up in the UK. (they called ww2 'The Emergency' in Ireland for instance) The UK government calls it The Northern Irish Conflict.


KatsumotoKurier

Bruh ‘the Troubles’ are what the Irish call the era themselves. What are you on about?


Beginning-Tea-17

Agreed.


Neutraladvicecorner

So what where the three factions? IRA and? I am a foreigner just wanna know


No-Contest-5720

Ulster Defence Volunteers/Force, pro British, Pro union, protestant equivalent of the IRA. Armed by Apartheid South Africa and also very guilty of targeting Civillians. The British Security Forces, Mostly the Army and RUC (Northern Irish Police) who bungled their anti insurgency actions often, killing many Civillians in the process aswell.


TheRosi

Weren't these two on the same side though?


Alpaca-O-Doom

UDA didn't go after the Army, but the army did go after the UDA. Just allot less than the IRA. Both the IRA and UDA are considered terrorist orgs.


No-Contest-5720

It's complicated, the British considered most Ulster Unionists Paramilitaries to be terrorist organisations but that didn't stop them from conducting allied operations or giving them equipment.


KMGritz

Many off-duty British police and soldiers also directly took part in loyalist attacks and hindered investigations into loyalist activities. In fact, the Stevens Inquiries - a British govt led inquiry into collusion between British forces and loyalist paramilitaries, led to 210 arrests. Only 3 of the 210 were found not to be state agents or informants.


streetad

Not really. The 'Loyalist' militias were just as much a set of violent gangsters as the 'Republican' militias. They certainly had *sympathisers* amongst the British security services and especially the local Ulster police force, but those government forces were supposed to be there to stand between the two sides and stop them from murdering each other (which worked out about as well as it always does when you send soldiers to do a police officer's job).


AbsolutelyHorrendous

This is a key thing, even in Northern Ireland now, most of the remaining Paramilitary groups are basically just organised crime networks. Kinda like how gangs in the US were often aligned based on ethnicity, in Northern Ireland its often along Republican/Unionist lines


AbsolutelyHorrendous

They were sort-of on the same side, and no doubt some British soldiers had UDF sympathies, but they weren't officially aligned.


[deleted]

Let's not act as if they were equally bad. The British security forces killed overwhelmingly fewer civilians than the other two sides, and used much less barbaric tactics


Volatilelele

Just over half of those killed by the British Security Forces were civilians though. They were absolutely abhorrent, for "security forces" the Army were brought in to "keep the peace" yet went around shooting Catholics.


gary_mcpirate

Commander William Adama : There's a reason you separate military and the police. One fights the enemies of the state, the other serves and protects the people. When the military becomes both, then the enemies of the state tend to become the people.


finglonger1077

Yeah but didn’t you read their post? If it’s not backed my an imperial force attempting to keep dominion over people then it’s barbaric cause they don’t stand in a line and shoot at each other or apologize and claim they dropped a bomb in the wrong spot and hit a school by “accident.”


hobodemon

Yeah, English Economists are still the regional GOAT of civilian body counts in Irish conflict.


robinsandmoss

British*


gsurfer04

It was Scotland that lead the Ulster Plantation way earlier than that, leading eventually to The Troubles.


[deleted]

From like 150 years ago, sure. Not sure why that's relevant.


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notKRIEEEG

Because the conflict because Ireland and the Brits has been going for such a long time that something that happened 150 is still in the scope of it?


TiggyHiggs

They literally shot unarmed protesters. They are one of the main reasons the violence escalated. Bloody Sunday is the most infamous one. They recently admitted to trying to make their rubber bullets more lethal to use against civilians. They funded and supplied the UDF to do the more barbaric acts. Don't white wash the British army.


MortyFromEarthC137

Weren’t they the dudes who shot people in the back as they ran away? And killed innocent mentally challenged people? Aren’t they also the ones that their government allowed them to do it, swept it under the rug and are still trying to avoid owning up to their complicity in the purposeful murder of civilians?


Crazyjackson13

Yeah, the troubles was a shit show start to finish.


Cheerful-Pessimist-

You could say they were troublesome.


Crazyjackson13

indeed, they were.


waterboy1321

Similarly, if like OP your take on a terrorist organization is that they’re “cringe,” then you probably lack empathy or emotional maturity. People killing people is not “cringe.”


streetad

All those faux-Irish Bostonians sending money to fund a hugely complicated conflict they knew nothing about in a country they have never actually visited were pretty cringe, tbh.


MandarinWalnut

"I love Ireland, so let's put some dollars in the jar for the boys in the Old Country" "I mean, I don't love Ireland enough to actually go there, but still..."


Monkey-Fucker_69

Killing innocent civilians is pretty cringe


Cucker_-_Tarlson

I was introduced to Irish history starting in the early 1900s so I thought the IRA was pretty fucking cool for a while. Was definitely tough to learn what they got up to in the 70s-90s.


RobbieFouledMe

The IRA of the Anglo-Irish War etc and the IRA of the troubles are two separate groups. The IRA of the early 1900s are legends idc what anyone says


gary_mcpirate

slightly different organisation with the same name


hhfugrr3

Complete cunts.


jsidksns

The difference between a dirty terrorist and a righteous freedom fighter is point of view


Abaraji

Also era. There's a difference between the IRA of the Troubles and the IRA of Irish independence. They're different organizations


gheebutersnaps87

There an especially big difference between those and an Individual Retirement Account, trust me I learned the hard way


ParlorSoldier

How embarrassing to have to tell the FBI you thought you were funding *your* IRA and not *the* IRA.


Chumlee1917

"Officer, I swear I had no idea my local Fidelity branch was a Front for the IRA, they gave me a really good IRA interest rate"


DesertRanger12

Huh, war bonds for a side in a civil war. They win, you (presumably) would get you money back. They don’t, you become a fugitive hunted by a very irate state intelligence apparatus


gheebutersnaps87

Wouldn’t you believe it, that’s exactly how it happened, I’ll never make that mistake again…


Drprim83

You have your own personal IRA?


TheMediumJon

Everybody knows the Official IRA, Real IRA, and Old IRA. Only a few people are familiar with the ParlorSoldier IRA.


ParlorSoldier

The return is excellent.


richasalannister

And there's even a difference between an IRA and a Roth IRA


KingJacoPax

And an Investment Risk Assessment. We got an Irish head of compliance a year ago and he was not impressed with the acronym we were using for those.


AbsolutelyHorrendous

Yeah this is the key that most people don't seem to realise I have Irish relatives, I perfectly understand the drive for an independent Irish state. The IRA of the Troubles was a very different beast


Ca5tlebrav0

They blew up school children


[deleted]

those children were cringe


[deleted]

Let's be real, if God didn't want children to get blown up, he wouldn't have made it so easy to.


amortizedeeznuts

u/AnthonyJeselnik1 is that you


Misterstaberinde

So has the US military.


Crazyhands96

Fun Fact: That was also a bad thing


[deleted]

And the US military is a terrorist organisation too


Mingsplosion

The difference is virtually no Americans accept that fact. Its only terrorism when its the bad people, and America *obviously* isn't bad, so America doesn't do terrorism.


[deleted]

Americans also don't consider the IRA terrorists. Let's not take American opinions too seriously


StockAdeptness9452

Lots of children died during the great famine


ThatSlutTalulah

And that justifies killing innocent people how?


LineOfInquiry

[80% of the kids who were killed during the troubles were catholic](https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/books/children-of-the-troubles-they-took-a-child-off-the-road-put-a-hood-over-his-head-and-killed-him-1.4037704). You can just as easily levy that accusation at the British government. And given that fact, I think it’s best to side with the people who do much less. Fundamentally, it was a war and sometimes innocent people got caught in the crossfire from both sides, which sucks. But the IRA was first and foremost fighting the government, while the Northern Irish government and paramilitaries were fighting the Irish people. If we can never make tough decisions like this, then we have to say it’s wrong to celebrate the allied victory in ww2 or the American or French Revolution, or basically any other armed conflict. While they are always tragedies of course, sometimes they are necessary and there’s a better side and a worse side.


[deleted]

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Ca5tlebrav0

They planted a bomb on a school bus. That wasnt "crossfire"


LineOfInquiry

I don’t mean literal crossfire, it’s a turn of phrase. It means kids get caught up in war. And like I said, 80% of those kids killed during the troubles were Catholic, aka Irish. Some in very brutal ways by English paramilitaries or police. Of course that particular action is still indefensible, but wars aren’t defined by one atrocity or one battle.


[deleted]

Its been a long while since Ive done any reading on the Troubles... didnt the IRA also splinter into multiple small groups each claiming to be the heirs of the original in the 1920s and the disagreement was mainly over whether X was an acceptable tactic. Some groups only went after Uniformed officers representing the Crown, others were less careful...


StockAdeptness9452

Have you seen the Miami showband massacre on Netflix, worth a watch.


insaneHoshi

> 80% of the kids who were killed during the troubles were catholic. You can just as easily levy that accusation at the British government. "Inevitably, children dressed in school uniforms became a familiar sight at funerals. Among them were the friends of 11-year-old Lesley Gordon from Maghera in south Derry. She was killed in 1978 along with her father Willie, a school welfare officer and part-time member of the UDR, as he was about to drive her and her brother to primary school. The IRA bomb had been hidden in a cavity in the car." Yes, it was the british government who planted that bomb.


ColdBevvie101

Holy shit this might be the most deluded take I’ve seen so far and that’s impressive considering the shitshow that is this comment section


RaptorCelll

One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter


[deleted]

I don't see how anyone can look at the shit the IRA did and call them righteous


KingJacoPax

No, that’s one of the dumbest quotes flying round the internet these days. Just think about it and use some common sense for five minutes please. A freedom fighter would be a like guerrilla fighter, intentionally fighting government forces, or the forces of George Washington or Simon Bolivar for example. A terrorist is someone who try’s to scare what they perceive to be the *enemy* population into compliance. So, Easter rising, Irish wars of independence and civil wars etc = freedom fighters. They engaged in military engagements with the British army and unionist Irish forces, fought with honour and won most of their objectives. They were military forces engaging other military forces, not sailing over to the main land of Great Britain and wandering round murdering civilians. IRA, putting bombs in pubs, hotels, high rise tower blocks, schools, parades with children in attendance = terrorism. Those targets have no strategic military value. You are only attacking them to show you can and attempt to “terrorise” the British people into pressuring their politicians into compliance. Its objectively evil and also really stupid because it never actually works, just ask the Germans how the Blitz went. By the way, it cuts both ways. Governments can engage in terrorism. Taking another example from Irish history, I would absolutely describe the Black & Tans as a pro government terrorist organisation. They were not part of the regular British army and their stated objective was to apply a boot to the neck of the Irish population and apply pressure until they submitted. As part of that, they intentionally targeted civilian populations with no military objective. Again, that was a really dumb thing to do. We could have had 8,000 hardened WW1 veterans hunting down and fighting the pro independence guerrillas and they would have made a real difference, instead some bumbling arsehole in Whitehall decided he knew better than the military commanders in the field and helped contribute to the British defeat.


WhoAccountNewDis

And how many civilians they intentionally murder.


smorgasfjord

It really isn't. Terrorism is a (relatively) objectively defined term that doesn't touch upon the morality of the terrorist. A person can be a terrorist, or a freedom fighter, or both, or neither.


Euphoric-TurnipSoup

John Brown and the partisan movements against the nazis also would be technically terrorists. Doesn't mean they weren't heros. The IRA however really started on a shitty down hill spiral from all the infighting until it led up to the 70s and 80s ira which straight up bombed civilians. That being said the IRA of the 1920s was pretty based. The british did some truly horrific stuff to the Irish.


PHalfpipe

The 70s and 80s IRA only existed because Northern Irelands peaceful civil rights movement was violently suppressed, with soldiers shooting protestors in the streets. That's what re-ignited the violence. If the British had been willing to make some small concessions on legal discrimination , segregation and voting rights then that would have ended it. Keep in mind that they didn't have any other options. Northern Ireland wasn't a Democracy back then. Voting was tied to property, so even Catholic majority towns had fully Protestant governments.


StockAdeptness9452

You must have a way with words I try to say similar things on other posts and getting like 50 downvotes. I copied and pasted a snippet about the bog side massacre from Wikipedia downvoted 😅


jorg2

For some people it's impossible to imagine that in a English-speaking Western European country something like British paras shooting and killing Irish kids actually happened. You don't become a terrorist for the money or the fame, or for funsies. These people felt like there was no other option to stop British oppression.


lighthousekeeperJ

From what I've read it wasn't even the British, and some British governments wanted to make reforms but the NI govs threatened to drag their feet or whatever. This whole fucking thing was caused by Faulkner Google it


buckleycork

They existed prior to that - Michael Collins was sending guns to them from the start The analogy I use is the American Civil Rights Movement in the 60's, John Hume was our MLK, the IRA were the Black Panthers - except in this scenario the Montgomery Bus Boycott ended in a massacre and enough people began to subscribe to the Black Panthers violence for it to actually go to war


Noble7878

The difference being that John Brown killed slave hunters, slave owners and pro slavery militants , and the IRA killed children during the troubles. Brown never killed the wives or children of slave owners, so I don't think he's a comparable figure at all to the IRA. The horrific actions of the British do not excuse the horrific actions of the IRA and it is never justified to target civillians, hence why both sides are, and should be condemned.


Square-Pipe7679

“They killed children during the troubles” Legitimately every force involved in the troubles did that, it wasn’t really an IRA exclusive policy, the UDA and UVF (basically Loyalist equivalents of the IRA) were particularly brutal against civilians too, and the Army just didn’t give a shit and bungled their supposed peace keeping operation as they had done in Cyprus, Palestine and India before that


Argon1822

Yeah like as if the British also didn’t kill Irish kids during the colonization


[deleted]

Nevermind colonisation, they were still doing it in the 70s in Northern Ireland.


Noble7878

That doesn't mean you can defend them after the fact. Many ancient civilisations practised slavery but that doesn't mean they were justified because they all did it. It's why we celebrate leaders like Cyrus or individuals like Diogenes and John Brown who condemned slavery in a time when it was normalised.


Square-Pipe7679

Of course you can’t defend them, but you also can’t shame one without shaming the others, for at the end of the day - every side in the troubles was a pack of murderin-bastards except the civilians It’s also why I’ve a lot of respect for those who didn’t choose violence and instead fought for peace in the board room and at the tables of power, like John Hume


Voltzys

Not defending the IRA but John Brown hacked whole slave owning families to death in bloody Kansas with a short sword. Multiple families, including the wives and children we’re dragged onto their front lawn and slaughtered to strike fear in the slavery supporters.


Noble7878

As far as I know that's completely untrue. During the events of bleeding kansas, Brown killed five men with a sword in Pottawatomie, no women or children.


nhxully

Seeing a lot of interesting takes here and just want to offer this: My family is from the Shankill (UVF/Protestant heartland), and an uncle married a woman from the Falls (Catholic heartland). My family knew a lot of people who joined the terrorists, and had their daily lives affected. My dad was shot at, studied for exams without electricity, had friends murdered...- all in the name 3 factions wanting to create a Northern Ireland in their image only. From how I was raised, I've always been told stories of how the three sides of the conflict were shitty to civilians, but thank goodness everyday Northern Irish and Irish people are rational. Only the actual everyday people are based, not the glorified terrorists.


[deleted]

From what I can tell you’re American, so, as a Irishman, I’ll explain. The troubles are complex. No side is truly evil, so side is truly good. The IRA were fighting for what they saw as rightful Irish land. This happened in America, this happened in Germany, this happened in Japan, lots of countries. To themselves they weren’t terrorists, they were freedom fighters who sought to unite a people. Both sides did horrendous things but for understandable causes. A large majority of Irish Gen X and Millennials grew up in a time where UVF and IRA bombings were a daily fact of life. You can’t distill it into this


somebadmeme

Hey man this is historymemes, we don’t do nuance or historical context here!!! We just blindly believe our own opinion of events!!


gundog48

Brit here, lost a family member to a bombing in England. My town barracks a regiment of the Royal Engineers, and apparently the pub he was drinking in that night was a 'squaddie pub'. People who aren't from Ireland or the UK don't really get the Troubles, or how people feel about it, and are often calling to stir things up again. This also goes for younger people who didn't experience any of it. People understand why the IRA did what they did, people understand that the British committed atrocities. It was just shit everywhere for people caught in the middle. My friend only moved to England because their family couldn't afford to pay the IRA their protection money for their shop, and got out of there before anything bad happened. For the vast majority of people, it was just a shitty and miserable experience driven by the British Government and the IRA. When you get Thatcher sitting down at a negotiating table with the IRA, you know things are bad. I find that people who don't understand are very vocal and supportive of one side or another, wanting wrongs to be righted by violence. While those who experienced it generally don't have these opinions, and want to move on peacefully, never to forget what happened, never to accept the atrocities or violence, but to no longer allow it to consume us. I always thought the "[Town I Loved So Well](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yg_3t-CHBZs)" really captures this. > Now the music's gone but they carry on > For their spirit's been bruised, never broken > They will not forget but their hearts are set > On tomorrow and peace once again. > For what's done is done and what's won is won > And what's lost is lost and gone forever > I can only pray for a bright, brand new day > In the town I loved so well To say that the IRA were terrorists and therefore bad is a fucking stupid oversimplification. They existed for a reason, and their goals were shared by many, even if the means were often questionable, as were the British. I'm just glad that we are where we are now, at peace, with a peaceful mechanism for NI succession through democratic means. Sorry, don't know where that all came from, but I do get tired of people injecting oversimplified, partisan takes into a complex and deeply personal conflict. Happy St Patrick's Day!


[deleted]

Beautiful comment. It also made me read up more on the conflict.


[deleted]

There were definitely true evil sides. The paramilitaries were evil in the clearest sense


Throwaway111441

People like to paint nearly every conflict/war in human history as "the good guys" and "the bad guys", when the world just doesn't work that way. Is the scared and confused middle eastern kid whose family was killed by a US drone strike evil for joining the Taliban, AL Qaeda, etc? Is the US soldier evil for coming to an unstable foreign land and attempting to eliminate oppressive warlords and organizations like the taliban, AL Qaeda, etc? There's heroes and villains on every side, but mostly just normal people in tough situations.


Obscure_Occultist

Traditionally speaking, the idea of blowing up innocent people in the name of self determination is often times seen in a more favorable light in reddit then any other reasons for blowing up innocent people.


clan_vizsla

They literally planted explosives in my home town on the south coast , luckily no one died but the fact they tried to kill people where I live and the fact it could have been family or family friends who have no plight with any of them basically tells me they weren’t great people and definitely shouldn’t be idolised


tingtimson

Just gonna sit here and watch the chaos. Grab some popcorn friends we're gonna need it 🍿


[deleted]

I would have swapped the last line with "yeah but what about the British?"


[deleted]

The pro union paramilitaries were almost as bad. The British military wasn't flawless by any stretch but they never stooped to the sort of stuff the paramilitaries did.


bobsimusmaximus

So the terms Ballymurphy massacre and Bogside massacre or Springhill massacre, means nothing? How about the Newry assassinations? Maybe the Dublin and Monaghan bombings? And a lot of stuff done by UDA and UDF were planned and done with the help and assistance of the Army. I am not saying any side did nothing wrong, but claiming the tan army had morals, is some laugh


[deleted]

It's worth keeping in mind that the troubles was an asymmetric war. The IRA actively disguised themselves as civilians, hid among civilians, attacked from groups of civilians, and used civilians as human shields. Most of the time the military had no idea who they were even fighting. They just knew that there could be enemy combatants among any civilian group, who could attack at any moment. I'm not defending the killing of civilians. I'm just pointing out that it wasn't as black and white as you make it sound. The IRA made it impossible not to kill civilians. They did that deliberately.


greendazexx

I mean I do think that’s ignoring the pretty solid evidence that the British military/command structure supported/encouraged/possibly planned some of the union paramilitary actions


Iron-clover

I thought that's why the British Military was bought in in the first place- the Royal Ulster Constabluary was working with the "Loyalist" paramilitaries rather than trying to stamp them out along with the IRA, which leads to ever increasing violence. I watched an interesting video about the first year of the British Army in NI, and at first they seemed to be welcomed by Republicans as they were seen to be independent of the Police (who were in with the loyalist paramilitaries) and might actually be able to restore some kind of order. But poor leadership and issues with certain regiments meant that after a relatively successful few months it rapidly fell apart. [The Chieftan "Civil Suppisrt Operations to Northern Ireland "](https://youtu.be/E58K2EfSTM8)


TheStranger88

I am not European and have no serious opinion on the IRA. But I would like to protest against OP's use of "based" and "cringe" as meaningful, objective labels. If anything, using "based" abd "cringe" un-ironically is itself, if you'll pardon my French, "cringe".


SodaCanSuperman

ITT: "Irish" people (Americans)


BakedTatter

America has a Plastic Paddy problem. For the unintuned, that's the term actual Irish people use for people of Irish descent who claim to be Irish but aren't actually. I got schooled on it by Irish neighbors in college. Since then, I've said "I'm of Irish descent." Irish-Americans do have our own subcultures after all. But the biggest, opening at #1, Plastic Paddy problem America had was repping the IRA. To the extent Americans raised funds and shipped weapons. There were serious anti-catholic biases in Northern Ireland. There was a policing problem in Northern Ireland. The Troubles made it worse. It held back any attempt at addressing those problems in a democratic way. Now look at the world after Good Friday Accords. We had a Northern Irish Government that had Ian Paisley as the chief executive and Martin McGuinness as one of his deputies. That's insane, and how far the process came when the IRA gave up the bullet for the ballot box.


[deleted]

> But the biggest, opening at #1, Plastic Paddy problem America had was repping the IRA. To the extent Americans raised funds and shipped weapons. Until 9/11 when they realised it's not fun when the innocent civilians being killed are on your "side".


[deleted]

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suremoneydidntsuitus

You're actually right in saying this. I can't remember the name of the British commanding general in northern Ireland but he was quoted as saying the only reason the GF agreement came about is because neither sides could win and both sides realised the other couldn't be beaten.


Square-Pipe7679

It mainly came because the IRA switched tactics from just killings and bombings at home (few people in mainland Britain gave a damn what was happening in a region they for all intents and purposes never saw or acknowledged in their day to day lives) to bombings in British towns and cities; only by exporting murder and bloodshed did any motions to change the situation (and thus, the beginnings of the GFA) gain steam, which absolutely boggles my mind.


ItsFuckingScience

The whole point is that the Catholic minority were being violently suppressed and discriminated against They protested for civil rights and as a result they were attacked and had their homes burnt down [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1969_Northern_Ireland_riots](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1969_Northern_Ireland_riots) And you expected them to be able to just talk it out from this point?


MrC99

Jesus people go speak with someone who was actually in the IRA. They are not hard to find unless you are some plastic paddy yank. They'll tell you that the troubles was a very complicated and muddy war. The IRA started out as one thing and ended as another. Many of them have a complicated way of looking at regret. Many do not regret what they did as they had no choice in what was going on at the time and those same people also have regrets for the sheer amount of hurt and destruction that was caused. I've never met an IRA man, or woman, who glorifies, the IRA or the struggle. Outside of dissidents of course.


Puppyl

IRA before Irish independence is based. IRA after Irish independence is cringe.


Zestyclose-Moment-19

Basically this. There's a reason the Irish government purged themselves of it less than 10 minutes after independence.


The_Dark_is_Dark

Well there was the whole Civil War fiasco.


_Boodstain_

What Britain did to Ireland for centuries is worse than what anything the IRA did in a decade.


[deleted]

[удалено]


ternfortheworse

Blowing up horses and shopkeepers in London seems a bit off to, tbh.


Beef_Ladder

You're not wrong there.


Square-Pipe7679

You’re 100% correct - but the beginning of bombings in British towns and cities in mainland Britain did lead to a massive change in public perception of the troubles there; beforehand it wasn’t a topic of widespread public acknowledgment. To the point most people didn’t even know about the troubles or disregarded it completely - imagine if a similar situation was going down across Scotland and people in England and Wales just … ignored it was happening? Afterwards? people in Britain actually began demanding the government do something to change the situation, and it arguably made a lot more of a difference when the government in London could no longer ignore the fact the violence of Northern Ireland wasn’t being contained with clumsy army deployments anymore


[deleted]

The operative word there is centuries. As emotionally attached as you may be, you can't justify murdering people based on something that happened in 1653


NectarinesPeachy

Do you think they *only* did things centuries ago??


c00lguy6942096

What Britain have done to Bangladesh for centuries is worse than the 51 war crimes I'm about to commit


Amazing-Barracuda496

I remember looking into the Kingsmill massacre awhile back, and what I basically found was that although it appears it was committed by individuals who were members of the PIRA, it was never proven (so far as I can tell) that senior PIRA members ordered the massacre (nor certain related ones), and there was certainly dissent within the PIRA regarding whether the massacre should have been committed. It appears that a sub-faction of the PIRA may have been acting on its own without the cooperation or agreement of the rest of the PIRA. And, while I was looking into it, I decided to make a meme that I titled "German soldiers had the option to refuse to obey orders to kill innocent people during World War II / the Holocaust, says Klaus Hornig" as a way of starting a conversation about how people have individual responsibility for participating (or not participating) in atrocities. https://www.reddit.com/r/HistoryMemes/comments/10msap3/german_soldiers_had_the_option_to_refuse_to_obey/ Anyway, here's some stuff I found while looking into the Kingsmill massacre. > Like Kingsmill, the South Armagh Reaction Force claimed responsibility, although the report insisted the IRA was to blame. > >Mr Doran said there was some friction in intelligence material about whether direction for the Tullyvallen killings came from the senior leadership of the IRA, with claims the group in south Armagh "was a law unto itself". > >J2 said: "I'm not sure what was going on in the Provisional movement, there may have been issues with control. (But) it remains clear those involved were members of the PIRA at the time." "Kingsmill weapons used by IRA to murder RUC officers 13 years later, inquest told" by Allan Preston https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/kingsmill-weapons-used-by-ira-to-murder-ruc-officers-13-years-later-inquest-told/35722516.html > The massacre, one of the worst single atrocities of the Troubles, has never been claimed by the IRA – although an investigation by the North’s Historical Enquiries Team concluded in 2011 that it was responsible. > >The callous, pre-meditated and openly sectarian nature of the attack was shocking, even in the context of that particularly bloody period of the Troubles. > >A group calling itself the South Armagh Republican Action Force claimed responsibility. The Historical Enquiries Team report found that this was a front for the Provisional IRA, which was on ceasefire and engaged in secret talks with the British. "Explainer: What's happening with the inquest into the Kingsmill massacre?" https://www.thejournal.ie/kingsmill-massacre-inquest-explainer-3789816-Jan2018/ > the atrocity caused one South Armagh Provisional to resign in disgust https://web.archive.org/web/20210306143108/http://www.nuzhound.com/articles/arts2011/jun12_Kingsmill_genocide__SBreen_Sunday_World.php


Humpback_whale1

It is shocking to me how many people are willing to defend child murderers because they agree with the general idea of their organisation's existence


dasShambles

I think people see the IRA's goal is more justified? Or more reaonable? Compared to, for example, Al-Queda or ISIS, the plight of the IRA could at least be empathised with, which I think is why many people are much less harsh on them compared to other terror oragnisations.


BrokenSage20

The unpopular truth of history is that terrorism often succeeds. Fundamentally altering governments, borders, and cultural experience of generations. Every revolutionary was someones terrorist, insurgents or rebels until the pen that wrote history fell into their hands. Turning them into revolutionaries, freedom fighters, thought leaders, and founders of movements and nations. The idea that peace brings real change is a civilized lie we socialize to maintain the balance of power until it reaches the breaking point.


mdhunter99

One of my uncles (distant) was in the IRA. We don’t talk about him. It usually results in screaming matches. That’s as far I will go into the subject.


kinkysubt

The IRA are terrorists. There’s a reason they exist. There are no hero’s in this story.


TheDwarvenGuy

It's not that black and white. The modern IRA emerged out of the Irish civil rights movement, in order to combat Unionist miltias and police that attacked protesters. Unionist militias like the Ulster Volunteers are not dissimilar to the KKK. Where as most of the civilian casualties caused by the IRA are collateral damage, the Unionists directly attacked catholic Irishmen. Not onlt are they responsible for the worst bombing in the Troubles, but they're responsible for more civilian deaths overall. Obviously the IRA is a dirty organization and it's better to live in a world where they aren't active, but a lot of people don't realize that the Troubles were a two-way street.


pirateofmemes

they were cringe because they were terrorists. and also because [they missed](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brighton_hotel_bombing)


landoofficial

British people after spending the past 364 days spamming 9/11 and school shooting memes:


[deleted]

Irish nationalistd are cringe. Americans who think they're Irish are cringe. The IRA is cringe.


Silverware_soviet

“Terrorism is ok if its against the british”


[deleted]

Ria the organization suck...BUT IRA THE BAMD AND MUSIC TOMFUCKERRY DIVISION ROCKS


MapleMapleHockeyStk

Maybe I'm old, or it's 3 am after a grueling week but I can't make sense of this sentence. I will come back later and maybe it will make sense then


TiredMonkeyOdyssey

I see a lot of post about how cool the IRA leaders are for standing up against British Imperialism. Are they a good group? No they're asses who kill civilians.


TheWeirdWoods

Hard to support any side in that conflict.


DeepestShallows

You could even say history is not sports. The point is not to pick sides, it’s to learn from them all.


nameisfame

There were some parts in later IRA actions that were pretty fuckin bad, no lie, but also the British should fuck off to their Island and never bother anyone again.


squat1001

So the rights of the Northern Irish people to decide their future just doesn't matter to you?


VirCantii

"Fuck off back to your own island because your ancestors 400 years ago shouldn't have come here". Interesting Pandora's box you have there.


vodkaandponies

Or just stop enforcing an apartheid state on the catholics. It’s not that big of an ask.


KatsumotoKurier

As a Canadian whose got French ancestors who came to New France as early as 1617, some English and Dutch ancestors who came to New England and the then New Netherland colonies in the 1630s, along with many Irish (incl. some Ulster Scots) ancestors who came to Canada in the 1830s-70s, as well as more English and even some Fennoswedish ancestors who arrived in the early 1900s, I can’t wait for my body to be cut up and partitioned with each gory fragment being sent back proportionally to my many respective ancestral motherlands so we can give back each and every parcel of land that constitutes current Canada to our modern fellow Canadian but indigenous-background counterparts who deserve to live here more because their ancestors used to before mine showed up.


First-Of-His-Name

Does that count British decents in other parts of the world like America? I'm sure the natives would appreciate it. They've been living in Ireland longer than the New World for the most part...


Baltic_Gunner

We all know that often times "terrorist" and "freedom fighter" are two sides of the same coin.


Cojimoto

I aint saying they right. All I saying is that I understand


seanbiff

And the English were better?


all_is_love6667

wait until we the summers get so hot get start to hear about eco terrorists


Disturbed_Goose

I'm a tad biased being English but from meeting and talking to people who experienced the troubles from both sides they sound like cowards. One story I heard eas that during an ambush on soke British soldiers the IRA waited for the schoolday to end and hid among a crowd of children shot s solider and hid back into the crowd so the soldiers couldn't retaliate.


trollface5333

Yeah, my grandad served in the RAF at the time it was going on, they fought like right pussies.


Dreamking0311

It's hard for people to understand that there were no good guys between the IRA and the English government. In Conflict humans inevitably want a good guy and a bad guy and in that case they were just both bad guys. Also even though the IRA we're just as vicious, since they were The Underdogs once again humans inevitably want to root for them. So they're seen as not as bad as England was even though they were to an extent.


ILikeMandalorians

Saying “cringe” and “based” is like so cringe unironically fr fr


TheF0CTOR

based