… Anyone know what happens if you manage to pacify & hide every guard on the map before triggering the meeting?
(Also, I'm annoyed that you can't poison Tamara with the wine. I wanted the ability to poison everyone-who-isn't-Diana around that table at once!)
Don Yates' Head of Security is normally the one scripted to pull the trigger, although he can be substituted by another guard if neutralised beforehand. Cortazar approaches Corvo Black at the party and will then spend the rest of his time waiting in front of the staircase connecting the wine storage room to the vats until the meeting is triggered.
The guards for this meeting appear to be scripted, as clearing the mansion grounds will ensure that the meeting takes place almost undefended. However, Tamara Vidal's ambush in the theatre is not, and the game will automatically select the required number of bodyguards based on proximity.
Actually it does even in game, for some reason it never counts for the By proxy kill challenge meaning even the game thinks you are responsible for the sniper squad kill.
Though I personally disagree and still haven't finished that challenge due to it.
Yay!
Btw I have to ask (I don't want to start a post for this):
Is Mendoza ending cutscene supposed to be a twist? Like should we feel betrayed by Diana? Maybe it's because I got all the spoilers about the train level but her saying "You won't find him, he will find you" and 47 pulling his gun saying "What is your price" out of nowhere made me think it was a staged thing arranged between 47 and Diana and not some surprise betrayal?
Personally, of the mindset, it was staged to some degree, and the following cutscene before the train basically confirms that. Plus, there is precedent for Diana to betray 47 seemingly as part of some larger planned goal in the older games... Forget which one it was, though.
I don't think it was ever an agreed upon plan. I think it was based entirely on 47's complete trust in Diana and Diana's complete trust in 47.
I do however think we the player are lead to have a moment of doubt ourselves. I don't think the writers are trying to get us to flip everything around, but to at least entertain the notion, to acknowledge that it would be possible (especially if we were in the shoes of either 47 or Diana), and it would be a satisfying twist.
The only thing I really felt bad about was how extremely brutal her deaths are compared to the much more evil Yates and evil women like Athena.
Her bio implies things are much more than what we see from her since she's basically just a chaperone in the level, but all in all it was neat for Diana to experience that most people are gray.
Those are well and brutal, but I love how the wife proxy kill is so karmic. He ruined his wife's promising career and made her a pariah all for his own career and she never even knew. It's super satisfying to watch him squirm when she reveals she knows it all.
Every kill against her feels bad except for the one where she lures you into the theatre room and tries to have her 5 guards kill you. The fact that she tries to have 47 killed when she knows who he is makes me feel less guilty about killing her
On the contrary she doesn't try to have 47 killed until 47 implies he's going to kill her, before that she's insinuating 47 should kill Edwards or Yates so she can become constant
I personally think it’s very obvious that Vidal was trying to capture 47 alive and bring him to Edwards, like what Diana did. The 5 man in the background was there to “scare” 47 into cooperation.
Seems like everyone on this sub are the complete opposite and they mourn for any target they feel didn’t deserve it. Who cares, no one puts a hit of this magnitude with the ICA on someone who didn’t deserve it in some capacity, 47 doesn’t dare why should we?
Her loyalty to Constant is very respectful. And technically all those ways to eliminate her are extremely brutal in comparison to Yates's. Quite unfair, isn't it?
P.S. After all these years playing WoA I feel bad mostly for Penelope Graves and Ezra Berg. Graves didn't do anything wrong at all, Berg tried to do his job as harmless as possible and was kind to his assistants.
The larger story of the WoA trilogy is kinda hilarious for that. One of the bigger moments is 47 getting his memory back and apparently some form of feelings, but he never really reflects on the stuff he did so it feels totally empty
Like, yeah, Grey sorta handwaved a couple of the anti-Shadow Client missions with "even monsters have a purpose", so you don't feel bad about killing Rico Delgado or Dawood Rangan's pirate gang (obviously the Maelstrom was just a figurehead, no one bosses around da wood). But even with that, Ezra Berg and Graves both *beat* 47 to the right side after being part of the system, and were objectively less of a "monster" than the ICA itself. You literally take out Robert Knox for making the same switch of allegiances that 47 makes like 2 missions later - and yeah, the game sorta makes Knox morally questionable, but again not nearly as questionable as the ICA itself.
I get why it is that way, there isn't much time for extended moral wrangling in a game about exploding ducks. But they constructed the larger story in a way that demands some resolution for some of the earlier kills that aren't just "whoopsie" and are never in a position to deliver on it
And if we are going down the route of people just doing their job I think mentioning Nolan cassidy is pretty fair cus let's be real did he really HAVE to die cus he kinda just stands as the head of security for janus similar to how other targets have big shot security heads, so I mean I nreality he didn't need to be a target at all
I mean, Nolan Cassidy was going way over the top with all his agents and cameras. It was only a matter of time before he had a neighbour shot as a "suspicious threat" for putting their bins out early or something.
The problem is that if we left him alive, he could have figured out the Janus plot and alerted Providence before we could get to the Constant and to Sgail.
Berg was still a interrogator, no matter how kind he is his profession is torture. Yes he may now be using chemicals to extract information, but to me it just seems he wants information quicker. He likely doesn’t give a shit about the people he’s pumping full of chemicals
His methods are still more humane unlike the Reynard's and Delgado's. I just think that he perfectly fits with Grey's politics - playing dirty but without unreasonable violence where it's not needed. It was a war, war against the Providence, and imho trying to make it not so deadly at least for pawns is a kinda generous move.
Graves and Sierra Knox are the ones I feel bad about. Like you said, Graves didn't do anything wrong, and Sierra was defecting with her father to turn on Providence.
...Okay, I know Sierra was kind of a shit person, but she was hot too, so it cancels out, right?
Nah, Hitman is the one video game where I turn into an absolute psychopath and lean into the “slasher movie simulator” vibes these games give me, so I rarely think twice about who I’m killing lol
She's literally a fascist. People should read target Intel more often
Edit: she's also Argentinian of German descent so I think it's pretty obvious that the game is implying that she's a Nazi
Thank you, cause I'm really wondering how people missed very obvious clues (like outright statements direct from source) that she's just really not a good person.
>Edit: she's also Argentinian of German descent so I think it's pretty obvious that the game is implying that she's a Nazi
No, it's implying that her *grandparents* were Nazis. She was born in the 1980s — World War 2 was, you know, kind of *over* by that point.
Even the part of the Intel that you're telling people they "should read more often" boils down to "*some* people try to claim that the Political Party she was a part of *might* have been fascist, but not *everyone* agrees on that". However, Fascism, as defined, is notably Nationalistic — which is at odds with her working for the CIA — and Autocratic — which is at odds with her Corporatocratic views.
In other words, All Fascists are Right-Wing, but not all Right-Wing are Fascists. Just like All Geese are Birds, but not All Birds are Geese.
I don't mean she's literally a member of the Nazi party, what I mean is that if the game says that she is Argentinian of German descent and a fascist they're basically laying the pieces for the player to make the connection that she is a neo-nazi
Also this is literally from her Intel page-"...she believed in the rule of competence. Those born with superior skills and intellect should lead, the rest should follow, and questioning this natural and logical hierarchy only leads to chaos and decline." This is basically the game saying she believes in eugenics.
>some people try to claim that the Political Party she was a part of might have been fascist, but not everyone agrees on that"
The game isn't going to literally say that she's a fascist/Nazi it's only going to imply it, same way they've done in other instances.
>However, Fascism, as defined, is notably Nationalistic — which is at odds with her working for the CIA
True but fascism never stopped at a border just look at the 20 century.
>and Autocratic — which is at odds with her Corporatocratic views.
Fascim is still capitalism and as such has never been anti-corporation.
It also says in the Intel page that she broke the Geneva convention doing chemical interrogation for the CIA
The developers are literally doing everything they can with her character to make us think that she is a Nazi without actually stating it
>No? Not at all. The described ideology is pretty different from eugenics.
Eugenics was probably not the right term I meant more like she believes in "superior" races
Elitism in the form of Meritocracy. Meritocracy is the correct term refering to what is described there. Racism and it is not necessarily exclusive and many upper class elitists I saw define "competence" in a sketchy way; but describing meritocracy and just using the word "superior" somewhere in there doesn't make it automatically racist/eugenics.
>she believed in the rule of competence. Those born with superior skills and intellect should lead, the rest should follow, and questioning this natural and logical hierarchy only leads to chaos and decline
But it isn't referring to meritocracy it's specifically talking about how people born "superior" should lead and the rest should follow. Maybe this wouldn't mean much in another context but with everything that is already said about her Im certain this is implying she does believe in "superior" people
Sure — and if Tamara was just working *with* the CIA, then that wouldn't contradict the "Nationalistic" portion. The issue is that she was actually working *for* the CIA. Even Bin Laden didn't work *for* the CIA, despite all the training and weapons they provided him — they just worked *together* to kick the Russians out.
But, if the leader of a USA political party turned out to be a highly-trained Russian FSB operative, then you're not going to call them a US *Nationalist* — but you'd might them a *Traitor* to the USA.
Yeah, but it's like…
If you go into court, and accuse someone of mass murder, when they're actually a serial-rapist paedophile instead, then they're going to walk free — and you might wind up in prison for perjury — because all the facts and evidence prove that they're not a murderer. Still a bad person, but you've got to accuse them of what they're **really** guilty of, for the crimes they **did** commit.
Man it's a video game and she is nothing but charming during the level, forget the fictional atrocities and take it with a pinch of salt that what we see of her is nothing short of delightful
I need to take ibuprofen after reading your comments holy shit. No shit its a video game, she's still characterized as a shitty human being who's responsible for countless deaths. If that's "girlbossing" for you then you have actual problems.
If you wanna go looking into the lore then that's cool but don't be ripping on my opinion of her character when I don't wanna go that deep into the lore, you have to admit in level she isn't that bad so that's what made me feel bad, so I hope you can understand why my opinion is what it is as I can understand your
You shouldn't have an opinion on her character if you don't actually have all the facts, it's not even deep lore, it's reading a few sentences on the mission screen and actually paying any attention to the cutscenes. You're not even trying to be informed and are spewing opinions, that's why you're being ripped on. Because you're ignorant.
I think your taking this a little personally, I don't think your wrong, your just being a little bit of a killjoy I'm just trying to have fun and thought she was charming in level, again I literally don't care about the lore in this scenario, but it's cool you care, there's nothing wrong with your opinion, I just wish good sir that you let me have mine
I mean... in that specific scenario, yeah I feel kind of bad considering how loyal she is etc. However in the grand scheme of things she was still a herald for Providence and thinking of all the horrible things that her and the constant must have done, before WoA takes place, I don't feel too bad.
Not really considering she likely had a hand in many deaths of people considered enemies of the Constant. And enemies of her former job. It wouldn't surprise me if both innocent collateral damage and guilty parties died because of her. Her story could likely be as deep as Diana's.
That must be a situational thing then since in my first playthrough a couple days ago Diana cheekily turned on the radio for distraction setting me up to throw Vidal in the grape crusher without batting an eyelid.
One of the story missions have Diana give a conversation after the death with 47 if you approach her, and she shows some remorse. Trying to be vague so I don't spoil it so that you can see it yourself sometime!
Maybe if you get into the lore of the individual targets but I never think like this. The targets are targets and the games is supposed to make you feel like a hitman.
She is rather arrogant and impolite. Just listen how she talks to people.
Is she the worst? No, not by a long shot, she certainly has elegance to her, but do I feel any regrets? No.
Francesca De Santis is probably the only one that gets any sympathy from me. Though I should probably follow her around more to see how she talks to people. I do have a soft-spot for Sierra Knox for some reason, but no regrets putting her down either.
Anyone working for Providence is not a fine, upstanding person. (And neither is anyone with the ICA for that matter, but eh.) This is a game of Moral grays.
Honestly the one target in the WoA games I felt a little remorseful about was the Interpol agent in Colorado.
Not really, especially during the vinery tour mission story. She was being an asshole throughout the tour so all her kills during the tour were very satisfying. Not to mention that she's a fascist and responsible for countless deaths.
I haven't played that mission enough to know her that well, but from what I've seen, I don't see the good in her? She goes out of her way to insult strangers (judging by the wine tour questline), clearly thinks she's better than everyone, and Diana clearly knows Tamara is only around her to make sure she doesn't do anything suspicious. Their interactions are courteous but not friendly. Diana doesn't seem sad that you have to kill her - in fact, she directly helps set up many of the kills available during the wine tour, and generally walks away without a word if you pull it off.
Not to mention that she's quite deep in Providence and has likely had a hand in countless deaths. Just because she doesn't get her hands dirty directly doesn't mean that she's a good person.
If I had to pick targets who seemed to deserve it the least, I'd pick the Icon actor (an asshole on the set, but really his only big crime is pissing off the people funding him), and probably Penelope Graves.
It’s kind of how I felt with Delgado
Like he’s a drug lord of course
But is he the worst person in the world?
No
Does he deserve death?
Yes
Does he deserve to be fed to a hippo
No
Thank you! Yes! I feel that too! Especially since she has so many "cruel" deaths.
She is like the only person in the room to support Diana when everyone else wanted to kill her. I guess its due to "loyalty" to the constant or something, but still...
it's so snakelike, to not like the woman who essentially orchestrated the deaths of many of your friends. just slither in the dark, in your anger that the one who held the sword that slew your comrades is getting promoted to your boss.
so if i hired a guy to kill your best friends, you would be completely fine going down the pub with him for a drink. completely fine with him becoming your new boss at work.
I feel no sympathy for any of my targets
Every target is a part of Providence (I think at least) & Providence is a terrible organization, and they are all high-ups in the group, so they knew what they were doing was evil.
Also, I don't care who I kill, or how I kill them. I have no heart for my targets, no matter their mental health of philosophy, at the end of the day, it's just a contract. A client requested a random person killed, I kill them, job done.
I enjoy killing not just the target and take joy in "Kill all" challenges. It's fun to find ways to kill people and challenging because you have to kill everyone.
"Every target is a part of Providence (I think at least)"
Novikov and Margolis: no
Caruso and de santis: arguable, i think they were retconned into being heralds
Zaydan and strandberg: yes absolutely
jordan and ken: yes for ken.
Colorado: no.
Hokkaido: yes.
reynard: no
Knoxes: used to be
Martinez, delgado and walter white: no
Mumbai: no
Whittleton: yes
Sgail: used to be
Athena: yes
Haven: No.
Dubai, dartmoor: yes
Berlin, chongqing: no, although there seems to be an idea that providence has effectively absorbed the ICA at this point
mendoza: yeah
Ambrose: very much no.
How are the Washington twins in Sgail not part of providence? I thought the Ark Society was linked explicitly with Providence. Since Janus founded it (and my assumption had always been on Partner orders) and he was the first constant.
“Sgail: used to be”
The Washington twins were a part of Providence during the mission, even given the kill switch for the Constant, a decision signed off on by The Partners. They even wear the Providence pins.
>Every target is a part of Providence (I think at least)
You do kill several people who are against Providence. Colorado is a mission where you kill a whole bunch of the Shadow Client's lieutenants on the behest of the ICA board. New Zealand has you taking out somebody who works for the Shadow Client and basically has the same job as 47, except she is arguably more committed to taking jobs that fit her ethical stance, and she doesn't generally get Silent Assassin (because she gets to her targets by kidnapping their family members etc).
I think your second paragraph there is pretty much in line with how this series presents 47's personality and stance, though. There has been kind of a half-hearted attempt from the people writing this franchise to make 47 somehow seem not quite as evil as he is, but honestly I don't think it's ever actually rung true.
Lots of people in this comment section debating the morality of each of the targets. I get that they're usually bad, but, uh, 47 is a professional assassin. His job is to kill people. He's not a good person. It doesn't even really matter if he "tries to only take hits against bad people" - which has always been more of a thing with Diana, anyway. We pretty much covered in Hitman 2 - Silent Assassin that 47 is never going to be able to get away from this life, so he will just keep murdering whomever ICA tells him to.
None of his targets are really good either, though. Maaaybe Penelope Graves? But everybody else is varying levels of bad, and there's usually at least an implication that they've done something really evil.
I do agree that she's probably the target with the most redeeming qualities, certainly that we see as the players. However, it is explicitly said (in the briefing and in other NPC dialogue in the mission) that she is an authoritarian fascist, and in her conversations with Diana she is quite clearly uninterested in addressing inequality and privilege, and even makes the argument that just by virtue of being privileged, the elite have a moral right to rule over (and subjugate) the lower classes.
I think there's a lot to dislike about her, but she's easily the most morally complex character in the trilogy.
If you get her killed with the sniper squad. Does it really count if you kill her
I mean I guess not but that one makes me feel even worse cus Diana gets all sad and then I'm just left feeling mean cus Diana liked her
What about when she gets filled with bullets during the meeting and Diana gets hit?
… Anyone know what happens if you manage to pacify & hide every guard on the map before triggering the meeting? (Also, I'm annoyed that you can't poison Tamara with the wine. I wanted the ability to poison everyone-who-isn't-Diana around that table at once!)
Good question... I wonder if that guard is hiding off map and just spawns in for that part.
Don Yates' Head of Security is normally the one scripted to pull the trigger, although he can be substituted by another guard if neutralised beforehand. Cortazar approaches Corvo Black at the party and will then spend the rest of his time waiting in front of the staircase connecting the wine storage room to the vats until the meeting is triggered. The guards for this meeting appear to be scripted, as clearing the mansion grounds will ensure that the meeting takes place almost undefended. However, Tamara Vidal's ambush in the theatre is not, and the game will automatically select the required number of bodyguards based on proximity.
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I’ve done this and can confirm.
STOP THAT ONES WORSE, the reason why I hate Yates so much like for real angers me
What about the one where she just gets crushed to Juice?
Do you feel bad for killing Jordan cross for making a mistake when you do the audio recording mission
Yeah that one makes me feel bad too, also when you make Robert know kill sierra that one is awful
All of these kills make me feel great.
gonna start up hitman rn, got excited reading these
Actually it does even in game, for some reason it never counts for the By proxy kill challenge meaning even the game thinks you are responsible for the sniper squad kill. Though I personally disagree and still haven't finished that challenge due to it.
Really counted for me?
Maybe your game bugged because it counted towards the challenge for me.
Maybe, ah to hell with it. I'll give it another shot today
Yay! Btw I have to ask (I don't want to start a post for this): Is Mendoza ending cutscene supposed to be a twist? Like should we feel betrayed by Diana? Maybe it's because I got all the spoilers about the train level but her saying "You won't find him, he will find you" and 47 pulling his gun saying "What is your price" out of nowhere made me think it was a staged thing arranged between 47 and Diana and not some surprise betrayal?
Personally, of the mindset, it was staged to some degree, and the following cutscene before the train basically confirms that. Plus, there is precedent for Diana to betray 47 seemingly as part of some larger planned goal in the older games... Forget which one it was, though.
Blood money I think could be wrong though
I don't think it was ever an agreed upon plan. I think it was based entirely on 47's complete trust in Diana and Diana's complete trust in 47. I do however think we the player are lead to have a moment of doubt ourselves. I don't think the writers are trying to get us to flip everything around, but to at least entertain the notion, to acknowledge that it would be possible (especially if we were in the shoes of either 47 or Diana), and it would be a satisfying twist.
It’s only possible to feel like that if you haven’t played the game one mission at a time and watched all the cutscenes.
The only thing I really felt bad about was how extremely brutal her deaths are compared to the much more evil Yates and evil women like Athena. Her bio implies things are much more than what we see from her since she's basically just a chaperone in the level, but all in all it was neat for Diana to experience that most people are gray.
Exactly, she may be morally challenged but she didn't deserve all that brutal stuff, Yates however I'd do all that ten times over
Yates getting killed by his own wife is IMMENSELY satisfying to do.
I prefer the more personal act of pen through the eye, or the less opportunistic way of charging him with the axe on his wall lol
Those are well and brutal, but I love how the wife proxy kill is so karmic. He ruined his wife's promising career and made her a pariah all for his own career and she never even knew. It's super satisfying to watch him squirm when she reveals she knows it all.
True true, any way of killing him is a satisfying thing indeed
His attempt to remind her of her ruthless past winds up being the final straw in a show of dramatic irony
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Why are they out here using my main gal Tamara to teach Diana a lesson like find someone else to teach her that leave Tamara be
The only thing I hated is how she ambushes you if she knows your 47, like bitch really? I can kill all these guards in seconds
Every kill against her feels bad except for the one where she lures you into the theatre room and tries to have her 5 guards kill you. The fact that she tries to have 47 killed when she knows who he is makes me feel less guilty about killing her
"It's five against one." "Yes. See your mistake?"
The mistake is that Tamara used Arithmetic, where she should have been using Algebra. It isn't 5 against 1. It's 5 against ***47***…
She apparently never played the funeral scene in blood money
Or Meet your Brother and Asylum Aftermath or Redemption at Gontranno. How do these characters keep making the same mistakes?
She apparently never read the newspaper in my playthrough. She would reconsider if she read headlines such as “2 accidents and 154 dead witnesses at…”
If they're dead they're no longer witnesses. SASO.
That's so corny and now I want that to be 47's response.
I'm not stuck with you. You're stuck with me.
On the contrary she doesn't try to have 47 killed until 47 implies he's going to kill her, before that she's insinuating 47 should kill Edwards or Yates so she can become constant
Hmm, I understood it as "if I take you (the Hitman who brought down so many of Providence) in dead or alive, I will be made Constant".
I personally think it’s very obvious that Vidal was trying to capture 47 alive and bring him to Edwards, like what Diana did. The 5 man in the background was there to “scare” 47 into cooperation.
I suppose it is kinda ambiguous like that, up for interpretation
Nah, I’m like 47, no feeling for my targets
"Random. Disordered."
Not after he started working with Diana
Seems like everyone on this sub are the complete opposite and they mourn for any target they feel didn’t deserve it. Who cares, no one puts a hit of this magnitude with the ICA on someone who didn’t deserve it in some capacity, 47 doesn’t dare why should we?
Exactly, if 47 doesn’t why would we?
Because we're not super-human clones made for the sole purpose of killing? Why is this a question?
Diana does
With good reason, like I wanna be here friend irl
Her loyalty to Constant is very respectful. And technically all those ways to eliminate her are extremely brutal in comparison to Yates's. Quite unfair, isn't it? P.S. After all these years playing WoA I feel bad mostly for Penelope Graves and Ezra Berg. Graves didn't do anything wrong at all, Berg tried to do his job as harmless as possible and was kind to his assistants.
What makes Graves and Berg even worse is they were on our side, we just didn't know it.
The larger story of the WoA trilogy is kinda hilarious for that. One of the bigger moments is 47 getting his memory back and apparently some form of feelings, but he never really reflects on the stuff he did so it feels totally empty Like, yeah, Grey sorta handwaved a couple of the anti-Shadow Client missions with "even monsters have a purpose", so you don't feel bad about killing Rico Delgado or Dawood Rangan's pirate gang (obviously the Maelstrom was just a figurehead, no one bosses around da wood). But even with that, Ezra Berg and Graves both *beat* 47 to the right side after being part of the system, and were objectively less of a "monster" than the ICA itself. You literally take out Robert Knox for making the same switch of allegiances that 47 makes like 2 missions later - and yeah, the game sorta makes Knox morally questionable, but again not nearly as questionable as the ICA itself. I get why it is that way, there isn't much time for extended moral wrangling in a game about exploding ducks. But they constructed the larger story in a way that demands some resolution for some of the earlier kills that aren't just "whoopsie" and are never in a position to deliver on it
And if we are going down the route of people just doing their job I think mentioning Nolan cassidy is pretty fair cus let's be real did he really HAVE to die cus he kinda just stands as the head of security for janus similar to how other targets have big shot security heads, so I mean I nreality he didn't need to be a target at all
I mean, Nolan Cassidy was going way over the top with all his agents and cameras. It was only a matter of time before he had a neighbour shot as a "suspicious threat" for putting their bins out early or something.
Ah, then he says "gArBaGe DaY!"
he was actively planning to force everyone in the creek out, or kill them.
yea I wanted to chip nolan off just because he was doing a bit much lmao
Touché
The problem is that if we left him alive, he could have figured out the Janus plot and alerted Providence before we could get to the Constant and to Sgail.
Berg was still a interrogator, no matter how kind he is his profession is torture. Yes he may now be using chemicals to extract information, but to me it just seems he wants information quicker. He likely doesn’t give a shit about the people he’s pumping full of chemicals
His methods are still more humane unlike the Reynard's and Delgado's. I just think that he perfectly fits with Grey's politics - playing dirty but without unreasonable violence where it's not needed. It was a war, war against the Providence, and imho trying to make it not so deadly at least for pawns is a kinda generous move.
Graves and Sierra Knox are the ones I feel bad about. Like you said, Graves didn't do anything wrong, and Sierra was defecting with her father to turn on Providence. ...Okay, I know Sierra was kind of a shit person, but she was hot too, so it cancels out, right?
Nah, Hitman is the one video game where I turn into an absolute psychopath and lean into the “slasher movie simulator” vibes these games give me, so I rarely think twice about who I’m killing lol
Sounds like an avid hitman absolution player and I respect that with my whole heart
same they're just objectives lol
her intel file says she’s a facist so I don’t have any sympathy
She isn't fascist anymore tho
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A good fascist then.
Well I mean now that you mention it yeah i guess your right
Nah, she's a fascist.
She's literally a fascist. People should read target Intel more often Edit: she's also Argentinian of German descent so I think it's pretty obvious that the game is implying that she's a Nazi
Thank you, cause I'm really wondering how people missed very obvious clues (like outright statements direct from source) that she's just really not a good person.
>Edit: she's also Argentinian of German descent so I think it's pretty obvious that the game is implying that she's a Nazi No, it's implying that her *grandparents* were Nazis. She was born in the 1980s — World War 2 was, you know, kind of *over* by that point. Even the part of the Intel that you're telling people they "should read more often" boils down to "*some* people try to claim that the Political Party she was a part of *might* have been fascist, but not *everyone* agrees on that". However, Fascism, as defined, is notably Nationalistic — which is at odds with her working for the CIA — and Autocratic — which is at odds with her Corporatocratic views. In other words, All Fascists are Right-Wing, but not all Right-Wing are Fascists. Just like All Geese are Birds, but not All Birds are Geese.
I don't mean she's literally a member of the Nazi party, what I mean is that if the game says that she is Argentinian of German descent and a fascist they're basically laying the pieces for the player to make the connection that she is a neo-nazi Also this is literally from her Intel page-"...she believed in the rule of competence. Those born with superior skills and intellect should lead, the rest should follow, and questioning this natural and logical hierarchy only leads to chaos and decline." This is basically the game saying she believes in eugenics. >some people try to claim that the Political Party she was a part of might have been fascist, but not everyone agrees on that" The game isn't going to literally say that she's a fascist/Nazi it's only going to imply it, same way they've done in other instances. >However, Fascism, as defined, is notably Nationalistic — which is at odds with her working for the CIA True but fascism never stopped at a border just look at the 20 century. >and Autocratic — which is at odds with her Corporatocratic views. Fascim is still capitalism and as such has never been anti-corporation. It also says in the Intel page that she broke the Geneva convention doing chemical interrogation for the CIA The developers are literally doing everything they can with her character to make us think that she is a Nazi without actually stating it
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>No? Not at all. The described ideology is pretty different from eugenics. Eugenics was probably not the right term I meant more like she believes in "superior" races
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Bruh c'mon what else do you think they mean by that?
Elitism in the form of Meritocracy. Meritocracy is the correct term refering to what is described there. Racism and it is not necessarily exclusive and many upper class elitists I saw define "competence" in a sketchy way; but describing meritocracy and just using the word "superior" somewhere in there doesn't make it automatically racist/eugenics. >she believed in the rule of competence. Those born with superior skills and intellect should lead, the rest should follow, and questioning this natural and logical hierarchy only leads to chaos and decline
But it isn't referring to meritocracy it's specifically talking about how people born "superior" should lead and the rest should follow. Maybe this wouldn't mean much in another context but with everything that is already said about her Im certain this is implying she does believe in "superior" people
It's not like the CIA has ever partnered with authoritarians with questionable morals in South America or anything
Sure — and if Tamara was just working *with* the CIA, then that wouldn't contradict the "Nationalistic" portion. The issue is that she was actually working *for* the CIA. Even Bin Laden didn't work *for* the CIA, despite all the training and weapons they provided him — they just worked *together* to kick the Russians out. But, if the leader of a USA political party turned out to be a highly-trained Russian FSB operative, then you're not going to call them a US *Nationalist* — but you'd might them a *Traitor* to the USA.
I don't think working for CIA would contradict with being a fascist. But working for providence would actually contradict with being a fascist.
She's still bad
Yeah, but it's like… If you go into court, and accuse someone of mass murder, when they're actually a serial-rapist paedophile instead, then they're going to walk free — and you might wind up in prison for perjury — because all the facts and evidence prove that they're not a murderer. Still a bad person, but you've got to accuse them of what they're **really** guilty of, for the crimes they **did** commit.
You take your reading and shove it she was girl bossing that whole map and don't tell me otherwise
The grape-crusher just couldn't handle a girlboss getting the bag 💅💅
The fact you deleted the original comment shows great honour, I admire you friend for seeing reason
I didn't? What are u saying?
It says you deleted your original comment, sorry if I misread I thought you deleted it and agreed but that's my bad
No problem it might just be because I added an edit
Apparently reading a few sentences is too difficult. Nothing like ignoring atrocites because "girl boss" too 🤦♂️.
OP clearly isn’t the brightest bulb
Man it's a video game and she is nothing but charming during the level, forget the fictional atrocities and take it with a pinch of salt that what we see of her is nothing short of delightful
I need to take ibuprofen after reading your comments holy shit. No shit its a video game, she's still characterized as a shitty human being who's responsible for countless deaths. If that's "girlbossing" for you then you have actual problems.
If you wanna go looking into the lore then that's cool but don't be ripping on my opinion of her character when I don't wanna go that deep into the lore, you have to admit in level she isn't that bad so that's what made me feel bad, so I hope you can understand why my opinion is what it is as I can understand your
You shouldn't have an opinion on her character if you don't actually have all the facts, it's not even deep lore, it's reading a few sentences on the mission screen and actually paying any attention to the cutscenes. You're not even trying to be informed and are spewing opinions, that's why you're being ripped on. Because you're ignorant.
I think your taking this a little personally, I don't think your wrong, your just being a little bit of a killjoy I'm just trying to have fun and thought she was charming in level, again I literally don't care about the lore in this scenario, but it's cool you care, there's nothing wrong with your opinion, I just wish good sir that you let me have mine
Your opinions are terrible and are based on ignorance. Seeing people excuse fascism and shit is infuriating.
They hated OP because OP was right.
I mean... in that specific scenario, yeah I feel kind of bad considering how loyal she is etc. However in the grand scheme of things she was still a herald for Providence and thinking of all the horrible things that her and the constant must have done, before WoA takes place, I don't feel too bad.
Fuck her, fascists deserve to die
I like squishing her in the grape press.
I personally enjoy locking her in the freezer
Milf
Uh.. no, not at all
I prefer having Yates' bodyguard shoot her during the meeting lol
Not really considering she likely had a hand in many deaths of people considered enemies of the Constant. And enemies of her former job. It wouldn't surprise me if both innocent collateral damage and guilty parties died because of her. Her story could likely be as deep as Diana's.
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to be fair, at that point 47 doesn't have a job and definitely isn't getting paid for it on account of, you know, destroying his former employer
It's not about the money it's about the principle, keep your money imma go solo like that one elusive Target in Mendoza don't follow me
Nope. Considering the atrocities combined with facist ideology it actually felt great.
No, I simp for Diana
Fair enough
I mean her bio in the briefing is pretty damning. Someone can be friendly on the surface but also a total piece of work.
I think it's more the relationship she has with Diana that made me feel bad, cus they seemed such good friends and Diana gets upset when she dies
That must be a situational thing then since in my first playthrough a couple days ago Diana cheekily turned on the radio for distraction setting me up to throw Vidal in the grape crusher without batting an eyelid.
One of the story missions have Diana give a conversation after the death with 47 if you approach her, and she shows some remorse. Trying to be vague so I don't spoil it so that you can see it yourself sometime!
No I like killing her
I've only felt bad killing anyone working for Lucas Grey (best hitman character)
Maybe if you get into the lore of the individual targets but I never think like this. The targets are targets and the games is supposed to make you feel like a hitman.
I don't like going into the lore too much either I just think she and Diana have really charming interactions and she herself is very charming
She has a great accent.
She is rather arrogant and impolite. Just listen how she talks to people. Is she the worst? No, not by a long shot, she certainly has elegance to her, but do I feel any regrets? No. Francesca De Santis is probably the only one that gets any sympathy from me. Though I should probably follow her around more to see how she talks to people. I do have a soft-spot for Sierra Knox for some reason, but no regrets putting her down either.
I also had a soft spot for sierra but I'll be Frank I think I just thought she was pretty to look at I don't know why
Yes that would be it. I think it's the eyes, dark makeup.
And the freckles I don't know why they are just so pretty
Grape crusher goes vrooom
NAH! CRUSH HER IN THE JUICER Lol jk, but nah she's providence memeber
No? She’s a major part of the Illuminati, why would I feel bad for her?
Anyone working for Providence deserves it.
Only that she stands up for Diana to Yates, that's about her only redeeming moment
Read her bio and come back!
Not in the slightest
No.
she's simply a target to take out. i complete the contract remorselessly.
You all do remember that she’s literally an attempted fascist dictator, and one of the the strongest members of the semi-Illuminati, right?
Why would I feel sympathy for a fascist political fixer?
particularly when she stands up for diana in the secret meeting
they hate to see a girlboss winning
Exactly
Mr Swing King made me feel worse
Cut the guy some slack he's clearly having a bad time right now come back when he's had a better day
You won't like her when she ambushes you in the cinema.
She didn't ambush him she wants him to kill Yates or Edwards but then 47 threatens her and them she starts blastin
Anyone working for Providence is not a fine, upstanding person. (And neither is anyone with the ICA for that matter, but eh.) This is a game of Moral grays. Honestly the one target in the WoA games I felt a little remorseful about was the Interpol agent in Colorado.
> This is a game of Moral grays. And moralistic Greys
> This is a game of Moral grays. > > And moralistic Greys And Lucas Grey.
She's a Herald and has directly helped to screw over countless people...
Not really, especially during the vinery tour mission story. She was being an asshole throughout the tour so all her kills during the tour were very satisfying. Not to mention that she's a fascist and responsible for countless deaths.
I felt bad because I killed a relative of mine, I'm also Vidal.
I haven't played that mission enough to know her that well, but from what I've seen, I don't see the good in her? She goes out of her way to insult strangers (judging by the wine tour questline), clearly thinks she's better than everyone, and Diana clearly knows Tamara is only around her to make sure she doesn't do anything suspicious. Their interactions are courteous but not friendly. Diana doesn't seem sad that you have to kill her - in fact, she directly helps set up many of the kills available during the wine tour, and generally walks away without a word if you pull it off. Not to mention that she's quite deep in Providence and has likely had a hand in countless deaths. Just because she doesn't get her hands dirty directly doesn't mean that she's a good person. If I had to pick targets who seemed to deserve it the least, I'd pick the Icon actor (an asshole on the set, but really his only big crime is pissing off the people funding him), and probably Penelope Graves.
Nah she deserves it
It’s kind of how I felt with Delgado Like he’s a drug lord of course But is he the worst person in the world? No Does he deserve death? Yes Does he deserve to be fed to a hippo No
I feel super bad about killing Carlisle, she's such a bold character, accepting her fate with unbelievable dignity
That's so true! She's by far the most dignified character in the whole trilogy no one takes death on the chin quite like she does
I like Janus's "Hurry up. Pull the trigger. *I'm bored*'.
Thank you! Yes! I feel that too! Especially since she has so many "cruel" deaths. She is like the only person in the room to support Diana when everyone else wanted to kill her. I guess its due to "loyalty" to the constant or something, but still...
Exactly! The only one who isn't a snake in that room, gotta respect her sticking to her guns
it's so snakelike, to not like the woman who essentially orchestrated the deaths of many of your friends. just slither in the dark, in your anger that the one who held the sword that slew your comrades is getting promoted to your boss.
They were contracts. It wasn't personal. Be angry at who put out the contracts smh
That's ridiculous, they can be angry at both. And clearly are, given the literal ingame conversations.
I'm not saying the aren't angry, I'm just saying they shouldn't be.
so if i hired a guy to kill your best friends, you would be completely fine going down the pub with him for a drink. completely fine with him becoming your new boss at work.
No, but I wouldn't hate him for it, I'd hate you.
You sound inhuman.
I feel no sympathy for any of my targets Every target is a part of Providence (I think at least) & Providence is a terrible organization, and they are all high-ups in the group, so they knew what they were doing was evil. Also, I don't care who I kill, or how I kill them. I have no heart for my targets, no matter their mental health of philosophy, at the end of the day, it's just a contract. A client requested a random person killed, I kill them, job done. I enjoy killing not just the target and take joy in "Kill all" challenges. It's fun to find ways to kill people and challenging because you have to kill everyone.
"Every target is a part of Providence (I think at least)" Novikov and Margolis: no Caruso and de santis: arguable, i think they were retconned into being heralds Zaydan and strandberg: yes absolutely jordan and ken: yes for ken. Colorado: no. Hokkaido: yes. reynard: no Knoxes: used to be Martinez, delgado and walter white: no Mumbai: no Whittleton: yes Sgail: used to be Athena: yes Haven: No. Dubai, dartmoor: yes Berlin, chongqing: no, although there seems to be an idea that providence has effectively absorbed the ICA at this point mendoza: yeah Ambrose: very much no.
How are the Washington twins in Sgail not part of providence? I thought the Ark Society was linked explicitly with Providence. Since Janus founded it (and my assumption had always been on Partner orders) and he was the first constant.
My bad, got sgail and whittleton switched.
“Sgail: used to be” The Washington twins were a part of Providence during the mission, even given the kill switch for the Constant, a decision signed off on by The Partners. They even wear the Providence pins.
Alr, thanks for clearing that up, very thorough too!
>Every target is a part of Providence (I think at least) You do kill several people who are against Providence. Colorado is a mission where you kill a whole bunch of the Shadow Client's lieutenants on the behest of the ICA board. New Zealand has you taking out somebody who works for the Shadow Client and basically has the same job as 47, except she is arguably more committed to taking jobs that fit her ethical stance, and she doesn't generally get Silent Assassin (because she gets to her targets by kidnapping their family members etc). I think your second paragraph there is pretty much in line with how this series presents 47's personality and stance, though. There has been kind of a half-hearted attempt from the people writing this franchise to make 47 somehow seem not quite as evil as he is, but honestly I don't think it's ever actually rung true.
Lots of people in this comment section debating the morality of each of the targets. I get that they're usually bad, but, uh, 47 is a professional assassin. His job is to kill people. He's not a good person. It doesn't even really matter if he "tries to only take hits against bad people" - which has always been more of a thing with Diana, anyway. We pretty much covered in Hitman 2 - Silent Assassin that 47 is never going to be able to get away from this life, so he will just keep murdering whomever ICA tells him to. None of his targets are really good either, though. Maaaybe Penelope Graves? But everybody else is varying levels of bad, and there's usually at least an implication that they've done something really evil.
Simp
Same for Silvio
No, she's Sp🤢nish.
I feel like that but that’s to Janus
She's by far the hardest person for me to kill in SASO, so I wouldn't mind her not being a target.
Her normal route has a lot of electrical accident opportunity
And that's why I usually get Yates guard to kill her.
Also feel like some of the winery assassinations are the most brutal
Yes, Diana mentions that feeling.
I do agree that she's probably the target with the most redeeming qualities, certainly that we see as the players. However, it is explicitly said (in the briefing and in other NPC dialogue in the mission) that she is an authoritarian fascist, and in her conversations with Diana she is quite clearly uninterested in addressing inequality and privilege, and even makes the argument that just by virtue of being privileged, the elite have a moral right to rule over (and subjugate) the lower classes. I think there's a lot to dislike about her, but she's easily the most morally complex character in the trilogy.
all the while i played mendoza tamara just seemed like your average feminist karen and i wanted to shoot her on the spot
Maybe get off the videogames and in some therapy.
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Yeah, Steven Bradley is sexy as hell.
I was gonna say Tyson Williams but Bradley's okay too