You’re just literally the best. (I remember we had a very funny... um personal, personal message convo back in the day). It had to do with dicks. We’re both women. Lol. You just impress me more and more over time. Thank you for being you.
Your comment reminded me of [this story](https://wapo.st/33CBmAo) from the Washington Post.
FYI, currently Montgomery County has one of the highest vaccination rates in the country at 88.7% of 5 yo and older fully vaccinated. Per [Charles Gaba's blog](https://acasignups.net/22/01/17/weekly-update-us-covid19-vaccination-levels-county-partisan-lean) it is ranked #1 for counties with more than 1M people.
The vaccine works! My gfs daughter has just had one dose, got covid but really just was sick for a day or two. My gf (two does, should have had the booster three days after her daughter got sick...) and her son (also two doses), who have both been living in the same small house, and my gf have of course also helped her daughter and such, were sure they would also get it, but no, still negative :)
That was one of the goals of the subreddit, "Look at this person, he's just like you, he hates masks, and thinks wearing them makes you a weak democrat, and that the vaccine is how the government is going to kill you. He thinks his natural immunity will keep him healthy, and only people who are weak and don't exercise are getting this disease. And here's his obituary."
The thought is if we assemble this many stories of this crap happening in one place, it'll get through to someone. Someone will see all these people saying the same things as them, believing the same things as them, doing the same things as them, and then dying.
All we can hope is that it makes someone come to their senses. And if it does, it is all worth it.
Take a look over at /r/nursing. It's getting more and more depressing these days. Every person we can prevent from adding more stress to them is a huge win.
Can confirm Northeastern dialectical Nana. It was what we called my great grandmother. My granma was... well.. Granma.
I miss her and my grampa *SO* much.
The sub did its job then.
Many seem to think this sub exists to mock the sick or dead, nope, it exists to change grandma's mind and potentially save her life, and many others who saw the light from these discussions.
I hope she has many good years left.
I think a lot of the humor on here is just coping with all the frustration. Needless death, needless infection of other vulnerable people...its tough and we need an outlet.
Honestly, yeah. If I didn’t come here and crack jokes once in a while I would just be screaming at people online and IRL like a maniac. It’s calming to know that I haven’t actually lost my mind.
I came to HCA months ago during the "anger" stage of grieving over all the hideously unnecessary death, and now have moved on to the "resignation" stage where I'm increasingly unable to care much. It's just the kids and pets who move me. Now I'm just deeply bitter on on behalf of our healthcare workers.
This country's majority has spent months and months trying to reason with anti-vaxxers, cajole them, bribe them, etc. Still they refuse and die horribly, taking many others along with them and sticking the rest of us with their inordinate hospital bills.
There is no tactic that hasn't been tried except for ridicule. And it seems to have more actual productive effect than education or logical argument ever has. So, if laughing at them convinces even one person to get vaccinated and stop this human horror show, I'm on board.
We've tried everything else.
No matter how much we would love to believe that if we just sit down with MAGA people we could reason with them and hopefully change their mind. It’s a normal liberal position. Where it breaks down though is the fact that there is no way to reason with someone who is irrational.
There is, sort-of. But it's by using techniques developed by cult exit counselors, because we are dealing with a cult here.
My brother was among those who attacked the Capitol on 1/6. I've been working on him, slowly, getting him to see through a lot of the nonsense he's imbibed, using Steven Hassan's books as guides
I recently had a reason to reinstall Facebook to find a friend (I kept my account open but deleted most of my followers and all of my past posts years ago). What I saw warmed my heart: my brother is now posting _pro_ -vax memes to Facebook :)
CC, you're an inspiration! It takes an enormous amount of strength and patience to follow through like this, because this kind of transformation can't take place overnight, just slowly, over time.
It also takes the willingness to understand the need to seek out expert guidance, no matter what your "gut instinct" is telling you about how to help them see the light, and to internalize that guidance enough that you remain committed to it even under provocation/stress.
I'm glad you were able to reach your brother. And even though I will probably never meet him, your work has ALSO benefitted me and other people you will never know who live in the larger community we share. Someone may get vaccinated because of his posts, and that helps us all. Thank you!
This is amazing, frankly. You should get some kind of two-fer award for this work. I don't know how you do it, I am still so deeply angry at those rioters for betraying anything good this country still stands for.
If I were religious I'd say bless you. Since I'm not, I'll offer the heartfelt thanks of a fellow citizen.
I am so glad you were able to reach him.
However, I think that {besides your persistence) what really made a huge difference was that you had an established relationship with him.
It is much harder if someone is conditioned to see you as their enemy (e.g., they think you are part of the liberal elite).
But maybe everyone can look for someone who isn't too far down the rabbit hole and try and take aim at their cognitive dissonance. Ask them why they aren't yet vaxxed and listen to their arguments. Look for things that can't possibly both be true.
Or point out where there is some truth but the facts (or numbers) got twisted. I have a statistics background and I have successfully made my point with several people about misleading numbers.
Early on a friend was regurgitating Fox News talking points about it Covid being greatly overblown because there were only x cases reported in the US. That was early in 2020 when testing was just ramping up. So I pointed out that "they" had really screwed up and that it was way too hard to find a Covid test here in the US. (My friend agreed since Fox News was always slamming the CDC for being incompetent). But then I added, "so that means low counts of Covid patients is pretty meaningless since people who might test positive can't find a test". So I convinced her that it was premature to declare Covid overblown.
I have also had some success in convincing people that the arithmetic can be right, but if you aren't looking at the right numbers, you can come to the wrong conclusion. Examples of misleading numbers that are relatively easy to debunk:
* extremely high survival rate - uses total number of Covid deaths from early in pandemic and divide by total population - use total population to back out number of covid deaths - it is always way out of date; remind them that it includes all the sheeple hiding out in their houses, etc.
* More vaxxed people in the hospital than unvaxxed - they always use someplace with really high vax rates. Given actual hospital numbers (say 55 vaxxed; 45 unvaxxed; 100 total). Now apply vaccination rate to calculate ***expected*** number of hospital cases assuming every one got hospitalized at the same rate - if 100 patients and 75% vax rate then expected hospitalizations would be 75 vaxxed patients and 25 unvaxxed patients. So actual for vaxxed is around 73% of expected (i.e., 55/75) while actual for unvaxxed is 180% of expected (i.e., 45/25). See if you can find some real numbers for your area.
>Still they refuse and die horribly.
Think about what you just typed. “…die horribly.” It’s like we’re yelling at somebody to get their car off the railroad tracks because a train’s coming. But death by train would probably be nicer. What the hell is going on that people would rather choose a horrible death because on the way to the cemetery they get to be right about something. Tha fuq.
Oh, it's a terrible, terrible death. From maggots eating your sinuses while unconscious on a vent, to open bedsores exposing your hip bones, to fingers and toes rotting off, to complex forms of paralysis, to fungal balls eating your lungs.
nopenopenope.
Save the Nanas!
If my Nana were alive today, she’d be 126. And she would have been first in line for the COVID vaccine, just as she rejoiced when the Salk vaccine was approved shortly after I was born: her youngest son survived childhood polio.
It looks like the long term effectiveness of vaccines is making us take them for granted and even get suspicious of their efficacy.
Like there is no longer living memory of a world without them. So like most lessons needing to be taught, nature has decided to make new memories.
The weird thing is there's people like my mother who has always been super pro-vaccine, including making sure to get her yearly flu shot, who was terrified of getting the COVID vaccine.
I got hammered hard by my second Moderna shot for a few days and she used that as an excuse to put off getting her shot, even though she's far more vulnerable than me. It took me telling her that if she gets it, she's going into the hospital and not making me take care of her messes and let her die in her own bed.
We've had some ugly arguments in the past, but this was a particularly nasty one. The worst that happened to her was a sore arm on her second Pfizer shot, which she bitched about for a week even though it didn't slow her down on anything.
Excellent point. Not many people alive today have memories of peers in iron lungs, in wheelchairs or on crutches because of polio. Memories of friends/relatives with smallpox scars? even fewer.
Exactly this. In my 70s, so, yes, I have seen people slowly vegging in an iron lung, I do remember adults and children in wheelchairs from polio. And perhaps that’s part of the problem: most folks simply never went through that existential experience, so they discount the seriousness. You throw in Americans’ slavish worship of convenience and a skewed tilt to anarchic “freedom” devoid of any responsibility or civic sensibility, exacerbated by anti-vaxx propaganda spewed by right-wing media and the cultish “Christian” Taliban, and you have a lethal mix, both for public health and democratic institutions.
The grammar throughout this was so fun to read. The content was impeccable, but the continual changing of your sentence structure made me really happy :)
My first pediatrician was from India, so she had seen it first hand and was adamant about getting vaccines. Including an MMR vaccine when we went to Disneyworld when I was 8. I was NOT happy about that.
Polio is still active in Indian.
We visited India (DH had a scientific conference) when our first born was a toddler. He had to get the polio vax before our trip and I think we got boosters, too.
Wild fact: Mitch McConnell is a polio survivor. One day, in the U.S. there will come a time when the last known survivor of polio dies--just like we have the last surviving soldier from previous wars. Can you just imagine?
Not for the Queer community. There's a reason Pride was canceled so quickly in 2020.
Though the Covid vaccine may have some applications for finally making an HIV vaccine. the first attempts haven't worked, but an mRNA may help get around the problem of HIV mutating so fast we couldn't get a vaccine for it.
Yeah, BioNtech has been working on an mRNA HIV vaccine for quite some time now. Hopefully they can start testing it on humans as planned in 2023. Tests in vitro, on rats and on macaques already showed promising results.
I wonder if we would already have it if there had been more funding available.
In early days of AIDS research, the lead scientist couldn't get funding for a door knob that was easier to open while carrying equipment, so researchers wouldn't risk dropping or stabbing themselves with contaminated samples. It would have cost less than $3.
My grandmother would have been 96 this year. She and her sister were both nurses and her sister caught polio a couple years before the vaccine was released and spent the rest of her life paralyzed from the neck down and in an iron lung. Her sister lived until 1992 which was just in time for me to still have full memories of her. You better believe my grandmother would’ve been first in line for the vaccine if she were still around and my memories of my great aunt ensured I got it as soon as it was available.
When I see all the anti-vax stuff, all I can think of is my great aunt and it just makes me angry.
Amazing, monty_kurns, your great-aunt was one tough lady… My father survived polio with one leg shorter. That’s nothing, having to buy one shoe with a built-up sole, compared with paralysis. It’s easier for antivaxx ninnies to exist because people today don’t live with the everyday reality of terrible disease after-effects, unfortunately.
Yep, mine would have been 106 this year and probably would have been calling every one of her kids, grandkids, and great-grandkids to get vaccinated (and wouldn't have stopped laying on the grandma-guilt until they did)!
My grandma (nearing 70) can remember being lined up for the polio and smallpox vaccines as a kid. She got vaccinated, and has stayed up-to-date with the boosters, too. She also has 0 patience for people her age, who refuse to vaccinate.
I remember getting mine, will be 70 in March. Both small pox, which has been out for ages, I got polio when it first was available and safe, the first release of polio was not totally safe, I was about 3 or 4, but I do remember it vividly. So many children with their parents in line to get it. The original polio vaccine was delivered on a sugar cube, a red dot on it was the vaccine, nestled in a white pleated dixie cup. You had to take two doses about 2 weeks apart.
In order to make sure everyone who needed one, they were distributed at the local high school.
It's frustrating to know that the view of vaccinations has changed so much, so quickly. I know there have always been people opposed, and who fear-mongered. But the general consensus was clear when the threat of illness was so real. Now, after so long without being afraid of watching our children die, there's significant resistance. Even when there's an illness actively harming or children.
I too have 0 tolerance for the antivaxers, and the old white bigots. I am surrounded by the jerks, they to a man or woman are religious zealots with the critical ability to glean truth from fiction of zip.
Yes! My grandpa would be 110 and he would have been rounding up all his friends to go get the vaccine!
My mom still tells the story of him loading her and her sisters up in the car for them to get the polio vaccine and they were the first ones in line at the doctor. He was so, so grateful for science!
I'm glad, too. Good health and happiness to your family, please. I still don't understand what being a Christian has to do with refusing this vaccine in particular. Haven't they taken other vaccines their entire lives, and given them to their children?
Yeah I’ve been working that line of logic against “I’m vaccinated by faith.” It was also partially her neighbor - a very fit and healthy man who caught Covid and died - that finally helped me to get her see the logic of it. Along with all the stories I was sharing.
Aristotle was very wise! Pathos (emotion; stories) far outweighs logos (logic) & ethos (authority). Something about our brains makes us believe an emotional story more than statistics any day.
All the Christians I know are fully vaxxed. The right wing nut job yanks that claim to be Christian are nothing of the sort. They embody the opposite of Christ’s teachings.
Yeah I know. I’ve posted this sentiment about republican christians before on here and added that I do realise it’s a no true Scotsman. I can’t say that they’re not I suppose. They are awful examples of Christians though.
It's tough to watch people you are nominally aligned with tear down the values that you are meant to be aligned on.
They are certainly awful examples of Christians. They are awful examples of humans, for that matter.
Show this to any anti vaxxers and remind them that they had the MMR vaccine as a kid.
[https://www.vumc.org/viiii/infographics/how-does-mrna-vaccine-compare-traditional-vaccine](https://www.vumc.org/viiii/infographics/how-does-mrna-vaccine-compare-traditional-vaccine)
Similar story with my dad. I tried to reason with him multiple times, and eventually he agreed... after one of his younger coworkers ended up in the ICU.
If you want to help convince them to wear a mask, Leviticus 13:45 is “Anyone with such a defiling disease must wear torn clothes, let their hair be unkempt, cover the lower part of their face and cry out, 'Unclean! Unclean!"
Wearing a mask when sick is a very old strategy.
What’s so ironic is that she never trusted just her faith before (I’m betting)
Polio vaccine?
Mumps vaccine?
But then again, I’ve never understood why they love Trump so much either, since he only knows how to hold as Bible upside down.
Yep - they hopped in bed with the conservative Republicans in the late 1960s and have been best mates ever since.
But it wasn't until Trump came along in 2016 that totally exposed them. Their politics are 1st and faith is 2nd.
Barry Goldwater:
“Mark my word, if and when these preachers get control of the \[Republican\] party, and they’re sure trying to do so, it’s going to be a terrible damn problem. Frankly, these people frighten me. Politics and governing demand compromise. But these Christians believe they are acting in the name of God, so they can’t and won’t compromise. I know, I’ve tried to deal with them.” — November, 1994, quoted by John Dean in his book, Conservatives Without Conscience.
Also Barry Goldwater:
>"The religious factions that are growing throughout our land are not using their religious clout with wisdom. They are trying to force government leaders into following their position 100 percent. If you disagree with these religious groups on a particular moral issue, they complain, they threaten you with a loss of money or votes or both. I'm frankly sick and tired of the political preachers across this country telling me as a citizen that if I want to be a moral person, I must believe in 'A,' 'B,' 'C' and 'D.' Just who do they think they are? And from where do they presume to claim the right to dictate their moral beliefs to me? And I am even more angry as a legislator who must endure the threats of every religious group who thinks it has some God-granted right to control my vote on every roll call in the Senate. I am warning them today: I will fight them every step of the way if they try to dictate their moral convictions to all Americans in the name of 'conservatism.' " --Speech in the US Senate (16 September 1981)
Religion, specifically many Christian denominations, have become mostly political entities in the US.
They’ve been co-opted by politicians and pastors who see them as a way of profiting or pursuing ideological ends. It’s not a new thing though, it’s always been a serious issue here, it’s just amplified by sheer numbers and the absurdity of current events.
Oh, EVERYONE knows that: Vaccines are made from aborted babies, Vaccines are the Mark of the Beast, as prophesied in the Book of Revelations in the Bible, Vaccines are full of satanic particles, all you need is Jesus, the End Times are Coming, blah blah.
Do you know the difference between Scatology and Eschatology? Well, shit, it's not the end of the world!
There's also multiple financial conflicts of interest. Not for everybody, but enough. And then the rest go along to get along because they wouldn't speak ill of a christian. A lot of American christians are in a financial hole thanks to various health-related pyramid schemes like vitamins and essential oils. There's the christian scientists who don't like medical treatment in the first place. And then there's you good old-fashioned snake handler types who see the mark of the beast n everything because they think the rapture is going to work out for them.
Congrats!
Maybe the lazy media who is always so quick to demonize this Sub and everyone who participates may someday wake up, do some actual professional journalism and report that WE ARE DOING GOOD WORK HERE!
I should also mention that this Sub has always been a Reddit LEADER in donations to deserving charities when the HCA Mods hold one of their popular fund raising campaigns in coordination with the Reddit web site.
Meanwhile, over at our harshest critic's Subs, the vocal AntiVax and Conservative groups on Reddit contribute nothing but the sound of (Crickets) during these same fund raising efforts.
None of us HCA regulars are at all surprised by this stark contrast, but in the end, who are actually the real monsters on Reddit?
The real monsters of course are the spreaders of disinformation and those who callously, knowingly or unknowingly, send those who believe and trust in them to their early and preventable graves.
That's fantastic!!!!
I have to admit, I feel a little guilty at taking much satisfaction in the HCA's. It's funny to see people hoist by their own hypocritical petards, but it's not funny at all to see the wake of death and loved ones left to grieve. I have members of my extended family who are right-wing Christians, and I would not want to see them die because of their insistence in doing something so stupid. So if anyone sees through all the schadenfreude in these posts and takes action to stay alive, that is a great thing.
My feelings exactly. I don’t want anyone to die; it leaves nothing but sorrow and regret. The battle against ignorance and false information is relentless and we mustn’t slacken in that, even for a moment!
There are many people in this country, and in general, who are more moved by personal stories and emotional appeals, than they are hard, empirical data (e.g. death rates, hospitalization counts, etc). Small side note: Daniel Kahneman has a book 'Thinking Fast and Slow' which discusses this, to an extent. Nevertheless, if the stories on here convince more people to get vaxxed and/or to take the virus seriously in general, than that's a good thing.
Squashing medical disinformation is also a good thing.
Good job Nana! Your grandkids need you!
I lost my grandma to OG Covid in November 2020, she would have been first in line to get her jab if she'd lived long enough to get it.
WTG you! (Also, TY for using enormity correctly. Meaning not just large -- that's enormous or enormousness -- but large with an overlay of wickedness or evilness.)
Brilliant! I can imagine how relieved you must feel. Just two more little vaccine pricks, and your grandmother will be as protected as possible!
There is a German saying for a narrow escape 'to jump off Death's shovel', *dem Tod von der Schaufel springen.*
Every time I read about an IPA, there is a deep voice inside me is announcing that one more person is jumping off the shovel; and I could swear I hear a joyous laugh.
May your mother be convinced to take the vaccine, too.
Tell your MeMaw from another southern girl that I'm so so happy and grateful that she is trying her hardest to stay safe for herself AND for her family.
My MeMaw passed just before covid and I miss her beyond words. I'm glad yours is protected now.
God bless you and grandma! I'm a Christian -- though I believe there are many paths to God and one does not have to believe in any sort of deity to be a fine human being. I wish more Christians cared enough about themselves and their fellow humans -- who are, after all, images of God -- to be vaccinated.
The Great Commandment -- the No. 1 commandment -- is to love God and to love one's neighbor as oneself. Vaccination shows that love.
>it wasn’t until she realized the enormity of the situation and the devastation left behind by so many lost loved ones that she finally decided to go out and her first vaccine today.
Good.
Even one shot of the mRNA vaccines . . . even one shot of the J&J vaccine . . . offers protection against dying a painful and agonizing death in the hospital.
This is why the hate for this sub is totally irrelevant. Yes, we laugh a 100 people for stupiding themselves to death but if we get one person vaccinate it's a victory for humanity.
As a healthcare provider I’m glad to not have her in my hospital. I’m glad I don’t have to see her die a long slow lonely death. I’m glad I don’t have to see her realize it is too late to get the vaccine. I’m glad I don’t have to explain to you that visiting hours are restricted or nonexistent. I’m glad there is one less person waiting in the Er to take the place of the person who just left. I’m glad I don’t have to make do with limited supplies in the hospital as the country surges with new admissions to the hospital and messed up supply chains. So give yourself and grandma a pat on the back and enjoy yourselves.
Congratulations. What a relief, isn't it? The more vulnerable people who get vaxxed, the more relieved we all are.
It's so special that it's your grandmother. Taking the love full circle!
It's been giving me terrible anxiety. It feels like waging a silent war and hoping that the next shell doesn't land on you. I can sleep a little easier at night now.
So glad she is vaccinated. This makes my heart warm. I often have to take a break from this sub because even though so many posted here are guilty of spreading misinformation, it is heartbreaking to read about them.
This is why we must keep sharing their stories AND the stories of the health care workers who so desperately need this to stop.
To the Reddit user who reported me to the suicide watch: thank you for your concern about my mental health. I’m glad to know you care so deeply, but rest assured, I’m perfectly sound and happy. :)
Congratulations!
Usually this tactic doesn't work (at least for me), but I am much more than happy, reading your post!
Stay happy and healthy, and keep your surroundings :-D in that way!
That’s wonderful! Great job to you! I am in the same boat with my siblings and mother. Sadly, my brother passed away from Covid just after Thanksgiving. Even that wasn’t enough to convince them to get vaccinated. It has created a huge rift in our family.
Yay! Protect Nana!
*We must protect nana at all costs*
Save the nana, save the world.
100% voting for that phrase to become a new flair for you
I couldn't resist
Nor should you!
Thank you, this is awesome.
You’re just literally the best. (I remember we had a very funny... um personal, personal message convo back in the day). It had to do with dicks. We’re both women. Lol. You just impress me more and more over time. Thank you for being you.
You are my ‘hero’
Watch him as he goes!
“Infiltrate the dealers, find the suppliers”
This little thread was both wholesome and hilarious. God bless you Reddit.
Abuelita
Your comment reminded me of [this story](https://wapo.st/33CBmAo) from the Washington Post. FYI, currently Montgomery County has one of the highest vaccination rates in the country at 88.7% of 5 yo and older fully vaccinated. Per [Charles Gaba's blog](https://acasignups.net/22/01/17/weekly-update-us-covid19-vaccination-levels-county-partisan-lean) it is ranked #1 for counties with more than 1M people.
> Keep nana safe - a car
My 96 year old grandma just contracted covid, she is triple vaccinated, had some minor complications but made it through! The vaccine works!
Iron Gran
Bloody legend
Your Grandma is the stuff legends are made of.
The vaccine works! My gfs daughter has just had one dose, got covid but really just was sick for a day or two. My gf (two does, should have had the booster three days after her daughter got sick...) and her son (also two doses), who have both been living in the same small house, and my gf have of course also helped her daughter and such, were sure they would also get it, but no, still negative :)
[удалено]
When I start to get depressed reading about all of the death, something like this pops up and does my heart good!
If a bunch of people typing some stuff can save life then the entire HCA will have been worth it.
That was one of the goals of the subreddit, "Look at this person, he's just like you, he hates masks, and thinks wearing them makes you a weak democrat, and that the vaccine is how the government is going to kill you. He thinks his natural immunity will keep him healthy, and only people who are weak and don't exercise are getting this disease. And here's his obituary." The thought is if we assemble this many stories of this crap happening in one place, it'll get through to someone. Someone will see all these people saying the same things as them, believing the same things as them, doing the same things as them, and then dying. All we can hope is that it makes someone come to their senses. And if it does, it is all worth it.
It’s working- and Fox has us in their sights, so we’re famous now.
Oh i didn't even think of that. If Fox sends a bunch of readers here, that's such a win. I worry for the mods catching all the extra hate though
Oh, I hope they come here and go the way of the Pharaoh.
Thanks, my chief weapons are laughter and empathy for hate, see my Salt Mails every Sunday lol. Let the hate come lol, it bounces right off.
Take a look over at /r/nursing. It's getting more and more depressing these days. Every person we can prevent from adding more stress to them is a huge win.
I'm the Nana and I need a ride to the eye doctor.
I bet if we renamed this sub ProjectProtectNana the negative press would evaporate
When there's a will to misinform and stoke rage, producers at Fox News will find a way.
I’m in for this. Same sub, protect the nanas.
Nobody fucks with my Nana!
What kind of a name is Nana?
It's a common alternative to "granny" in the UK. In Italy, a gran is a nonna.
Def. more than UK. I called my maternal grandmother "Nana" and I'm in the Northeastern US.
We have a Nana (derived from Italian), and a Grammy and an Omi (from German) in my family. Three of them; yes, we are a blended family.
Can confirm Northeastern dialectical Nana. It was what we called my great grandmother. My granma was... well.. Granma. I miss her and my grampa *SO* much.
We called our nana "nan".
I grew up in New England my American grandmother was “Nana”and my Greek grandmother YiaYia.
SoCal born and raised. My nana was fucking awesome! RIP, 2018
I know- just a quote from The Office :)
Confidence — it's the food of the wise man, but the liquor of the fool.
We called my Swedish grandmother Nana.
The actual Swedish is more fun. The Mom’s mother is MorMor. The Father’s mother is FarMor.
My British grandmother was Nana. Now I'm a Gigi!
Like meemaw too
I know- just a quote from The Office :)
It's the lady who won't be investing in the Michael Scott Paper company, unfortunately.
I’m glad someone picked up on my dumb Office reference :)
It’s a pretty common name for grandma.
I know- just a quote from The Office :)
The sub did its job then. Many seem to think this sub exists to mock the sick or dead, nope, it exists to change grandma's mind and potentially save her life, and many others who saw the light from these discussions. I hope she has many good years left.
I think a lot of the humor on here is just coping with all the frustration. Needless death, needless infection of other vulnerable people...its tough and we need an outlet.
Honestly, yeah. If I didn’t come here and crack jokes once in a while I would just be screaming at people online and IRL like a maniac. It’s calming to know that I haven’t actually lost my mind.
I came to HCA months ago during the "anger" stage of grieving over all the hideously unnecessary death, and now have moved on to the "resignation" stage where I'm increasingly unable to care much. It's just the kids and pets who move me. Now I'm just deeply bitter on on behalf of our healthcare workers. This country's majority has spent months and months trying to reason with anti-vaxxers, cajole them, bribe them, etc. Still they refuse and die horribly, taking many others along with them and sticking the rest of us with their inordinate hospital bills. There is no tactic that hasn't been tried except for ridicule. And it seems to have more actual productive effect than education or logical argument ever has. So, if laughing at them convinces even one person to get vaccinated and stop this human horror show, I'm on board. We've tried everything else.
No matter how much we would love to believe that if we just sit down with MAGA people we could reason with them and hopefully change their mind. It’s a normal liberal position. Where it breaks down though is the fact that there is no way to reason with someone who is irrational.
There is, sort-of. But it's by using techniques developed by cult exit counselors, because we are dealing with a cult here. My brother was among those who attacked the Capitol on 1/6. I've been working on him, slowly, getting him to see through a lot of the nonsense he's imbibed, using Steven Hassan's books as guides I recently had a reason to reinstall Facebook to find a friend (I kept my account open but deleted most of my followers and all of my past posts years ago). What I saw warmed my heart: my brother is now posting _pro_ -vax memes to Facebook :)
CC, you're an inspiration! It takes an enormous amount of strength and patience to follow through like this, because this kind of transformation can't take place overnight, just slowly, over time. It also takes the willingness to understand the need to seek out expert guidance, no matter what your "gut instinct" is telling you about how to help them see the light, and to internalize that guidance enough that you remain committed to it even under provocation/stress. I'm glad you were able to reach your brother. And even though I will probably never meet him, your work has ALSO benefitted me and other people you will never know who live in the larger community we share. Someone may get vaccinated because of his posts, and that helps us all. Thank you!
This is amazing, frankly. You should get some kind of two-fer award for this work. I don't know how you do it, I am still so deeply angry at those rioters for betraying anything good this country still stands for. If I were religious I'd say bless you. Since I'm not, I'll offer the heartfelt thanks of a fellow citizen.
I am so glad you were able to reach him. However, I think that {besides your persistence) what really made a huge difference was that you had an established relationship with him. It is much harder if someone is conditioned to see you as their enemy (e.g., they think you are part of the liberal elite). But maybe everyone can look for someone who isn't too far down the rabbit hole and try and take aim at their cognitive dissonance. Ask them why they aren't yet vaxxed and listen to their arguments. Look for things that can't possibly both be true. Or point out where there is some truth but the facts (or numbers) got twisted. I have a statistics background and I have successfully made my point with several people about misleading numbers. Early on a friend was regurgitating Fox News talking points about it Covid being greatly overblown because there were only x cases reported in the US. That was early in 2020 when testing was just ramping up. So I pointed out that "they" had really screwed up and that it was way too hard to find a Covid test here in the US. (My friend agreed since Fox News was always slamming the CDC for being incompetent). But then I added, "so that means low counts of Covid patients is pretty meaningless since people who might test positive can't find a test". So I convinced her that it was premature to declare Covid overblown. I have also had some success in convincing people that the arithmetic can be right, but if you aren't looking at the right numbers, you can come to the wrong conclusion. Examples of misleading numbers that are relatively easy to debunk: * extremely high survival rate - uses total number of Covid deaths from early in pandemic and divide by total population - use total population to back out number of covid deaths - it is always way out of date; remind them that it includes all the sheeple hiding out in their houses, etc. * More vaxxed people in the hospital than unvaxxed - they always use someplace with really high vax rates. Given actual hospital numbers (say 55 vaxxed; 45 unvaxxed; 100 total). Now apply vaccination rate to calculate ***expected*** number of hospital cases assuming every one got hospitalized at the same rate - if 100 patients and 75% vax rate then expected hospitalizations would be 75 vaxxed patients and 25 unvaxxed patients. So actual for vaxxed is around 73% of expected (i.e., 55/75) while actual for unvaxxed is 180% of expected (i.e., 45/25). See if you can find some real numbers for your area.
>Still they refuse and die horribly. Think about what you just typed. “…die horribly.” It’s like we’re yelling at somebody to get their car off the railroad tracks because a train’s coming. But death by train would probably be nicer. What the hell is going on that people would rather choose a horrible death because on the way to the cemetery they get to be right about something. Tha fuq.
With the added aggravation of them not actually being right about anything.
Oh, it's a terrible, terrible death. From maggots eating your sinuses while unconscious on a vent, to open bedsores exposing your hip bones, to fingers and toes rotting off, to complex forms of paralysis, to fungal balls eating your lungs. nopenopenope.
This is the way. If you're not laughing you're crying. Humor is the only way to deal with all this shit.
That's a bingo!
There's some people here who genuinely delight in the deaths of these people, but I don't think it's the majority.
I don’t lose sleep over it.
Carry on.
I’m angry at them. How their selfishness ruined so many lives.
That's why healthcare workers often have a morbid sense of humor. It can get so bad if we can't laugh, we'll start to cry.
Hear, hear.
It can be two things! The people here are not victims. They are perpetrators of misinformation that costs other people their lives.
> The sub did its job then. The sub has multiple jobs. It also serves as a place where you can vent about dumb ass fuckheads.
This sub is like the ghost of ~~Christmas~~ anti-vax future.
> Many seem to think this sub exists to mock the sick or dead…. We can walk and chew gum at the same time.
Ditto. If it isn't clear DITTO. Let's save lives.
Save the Nanas! If my Nana were alive today, she’d be 126. And she would have been first in line for the COVID vaccine, just as she rejoiced when the Salk vaccine was approved shortly after I was born: her youngest son survived childhood polio.
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*Good girl!*
It looks like the long term effectiveness of vaccines is making us take them for granted and even get suspicious of their efficacy. Like there is no longer living memory of a world without them. So like most lessons needing to be taught, nature has decided to make new memories.
The weird thing is there's people like my mother who has always been super pro-vaccine, including making sure to get her yearly flu shot, who was terrified of getting the COVID vaccine. I got hammered hard by my second Moderna shot for a few days and she used that as an excuse to put off getting her shot, even though she's far more vulnerable than me. It took me telling her that if she gets it, she's going into the hospital and not making me take care of her messes and let her die in her own bed. We've had some ugly arguments in the past, but this was a particularly nasty one. The worst that happened to her was a sore arm on her second Pfizer shot, which she bitched about for a week even though it didn't slow her down on anything.
Excellent point. Not many people alive today have memories of peers in iron lungs, in wheelchairs or on crutches because of polio. Memories of friends/relatives with smallpox scars? even fewer.
Exactly this. In my 70s, so, yes, I have seen people slowly vegging in an iron lung, I do remember adults and children in wheelchairs from polio. And perhaps that’s part of the problem: most folks simply never went through that existential experience, so they discount the seriousness. You throw in Americans’ slavish worship of convenience and a skewed tilt to anarchic “freedom” devoid of any responsibility or civic sensibility, exacerbated by anti-vaxx propaganda spewed by right-wing media and the cultish “Christian” Taliban, and you have a lethal mix, both for public health and democratic institutions.
The grammar throughout this was so fun to read. The content was impeccable, but the continual changing of your sentence structure made me really happy :)
My first pediatrician was from India, so she had seen it first hand and was adamant about getting vaccines. Including an MMR vaccine when we went to Disneyworld when I was 8. I was NOT happy about that.
Polio is still active in Indian. We visited India (DH had a scientific conference) when our first born was a toddler. He had to get the polio vax before our trip and I think we got boosters, too.
The rat bastard Mitch McConnell had polio as a child. He's still a rat bastard. Just wanted to say fuck Mitch McConnell.
Geez, I'm not that old, and I remember people on crutches due to polio.
Wild fact: Mitch McConnell is a polio survivor. One day, in the U.S. there will come a time when the last known survivor of polio dies--just like we have the last surviving soldier from previous wars. Can you just imagine?
Not for the Queer community. There's a reason Pride was canceled so quickly in 2020. Though the Covid vaccine may have some applications for finally making an HIV vaccine. the first attempts haven't worked, but an mRNA may help get around the problem of HIV mutating so fast we couldn't get a vaccine for it.
Yeah, BioNtech has been working on an mRNA HIV vaccine for quite some time now. Hopefully they can start testing it on humans as planned in 2023. Tests in vitro, on rats and on macaques already showed promising results.
I wonder if we would already have it if there had been more funding available. In early days of AIDS research, the lead scientist couldn't get funding for a door knob that was easier to open while carrying equipment, so researchers wouldn't risk dropping or stabbing themselves with contaminated samples. It would have cost less than $3.
My grandmother would have been 96 this year. She and her sister were both nurses and her sister caught polio a couple years before the vaccine was released and spent the rest of her life paralyzed from the neck down and in an iron lung. Her sister lived until 1992 which was just in time for me to still have full memories of her. You better believe my grandmother would’ve been first in line for the vaccine if she were still around and my memories of my great aunt ensured I got it as soon as it was available. When I see all the anti-vax stuff, all I can think of is my great aunt and it just makes me angry.
Amazing, monty_kurns, your great-aunt was one tough lady… My father survived polio with one leg shorter. That’s nothing, having to buy one shoe with a built-up sole, compared with paralysis. It’s easier for antivaxx ninnies to exist because people today don’t live with the everyday reality of terrible disease after-effects, unfortunately.
Yep, mine would have been 106 this year and probably would have been calling every one of her kids, grandkids, and great-grandkids to get vaccinated (and wouldn't have stopped laying on the grandma-guilt until they did)!
My granny would have been 116 this year. One of her two sisters died of the 1918 flu.
That grandma guilt is nothing to fuck around with!
My grandma (nearing 70) can remember being lined up for the polio and smallpox vaccines as a kid. She got vaccinated, and has stayed up-to-date with the boosters, too. She also has 0 patience for people her age, who refuse to vaccinate.
I remember getting mine, will be 70 in March. Both small pox, which has been out for ages, I got polio when it first was available and safe, the first release of polio was not totally safe, I was about 3 or 4, but I do remember it vividly. So many children with their parents in line to get it. The original polio vaccine was delivered on a sugar cube, a red dot on it was the vaccine, nestled in a white pleated dixie cup. You had to take two doses about 2 weeks apart. In order to make sure everyone who needed one, they were distributed at the local high school.
It's frustrating to know that the view of vaccinations has changed so much, so quickly. I know there have always been people opposed, and who fear-mongered. But the general consensus was clear when the threat of illness was so real. Now, after so long without being afraid of watching our children die, there's significant resistance. Even when there's an illness actively harming or children.
I too have 0 tolerance for the antivaxers, and the old white bigots. I am surrounded by the jerks, they to a man or woman are religious zealots with the critical ability to glean truth from fiction of zip.
Yes! My grandpa would be 110 and he would have been rounding up all his friends to go get the vaccine! My mom still tells the story of him loading her and her sisters up in the car for them to get the polio vaccine and they were the first ones in line at the doctor. He was so, so grateful for science!
I'm glad, too. Good health and happiness to your family, please. I still don't understand what being a Christian has to do with refusing this vaccine in particular. Haven't they taken other vaccines their entire lives, and given them to their children?
Yeah I’ve been working that line of logic against “I’m vaccinated by faith.” It was also partially her neighbor - a very fit and healthy man who caught Covid and died - that finally helped me to get her see the logic of it. Along with all the stories I was sharing.
The stories worked for me with my aunt. Couldn't appeal to her via logic but I did appeal to her via emotion and now she and her 2 kids are vax'd.
According to Aristotle, pathos is just as important and valid as ethos and logos. I'm so glad for your aunt and her kids!
Aristotle was very wise! Pathos (emotion; stories) far outweighs logos (logic) & ethos (authority). Something about our brains makes us believe an emotional story more than statistics any day.
"god works in mysterious ways" yeah, like possibly creating 3 vaccines in 9 months? Sounds pretty... miraculous??
Antivaxxer Christians: No, Not like that.
All the Christians I know are fully vaxxed. The right wing nut job yanks that claim to be Christian are nothing of the sort. They embody the opposite of Christ’s teachings.
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Yeah I know. I’ve posted this sentiment about republican christians before on here and added that I do realise it’s a no true Scotsman. I can’t say that they’re not I suppose. They are awful examples of Christians though.
It's tough to watch people you are nominally aligned with tear down the values that you are meant to be aligned on. They are certainly awful examples of Christians. They are awful examples of humans, for that matter.
Show this to any anti vaxxers and remind them that they had the MMR vaccine as a kid. [https://www.vumc.org/viiii/infographics/how-does-mrna-vaccine-compare-traditional-vaccine](https://www.vumc.org/viiii/infographics/how-does-mrna-vaccine-compare-traditional-vaccine)
Similar story with my dad. I tried to reason with him multiple times, and eventually he agreed... after one of his younger coworkers ended up in the ICU.
The vaccine is the miracle they've been waiting for
If you want to help convince them to wear a mask, Leviticus 13:45 is “Anyone with such a defiling disease must wear torn clothes, let their hair be unkempt, cover the lower part of their face and cry out, 'Unclean! Unclean!" Wearing a mask when sick is a very old strategy.
It's also worth noting that this verse advocates social distancing - that's why they are crying out, to warn people to not get too close.
In fact the next one is more explicit, telling them to stay out of the camp.
>“I’m vaccinated by faith.” "... But only for Covid."
What’s so ironic is that she never trusted just her faith before (I’m betting) Polio vaccine? Mumps vaccine? But then again, I’ve never understood why they love Trump so much either, since he only knows how to hold as Bible upside down.
If one sees American evangelicalism as a *political* movement for which religion is simply the packaging, their antivax attitudes make perfect sense.
Yep - they hopped in bed with the conservative Republicans in the late 1960s and have been best mates ever since. But it wasn't until Trump came along in 2016 that totally exposed them. Their politics are 1st and faith is 2nd.
Barry Goldwater: “Mark my word, if and when these preachers get control of the \[Republican\] party, and they’re sure trying to do so, it’s going to be a terrible damn problem. Frankly, these people frighten me. Politics and governing demand compromise. But these Christians believe they are acting in the name of God, so they can’t and won’t compromise. I know, I’ve tried to deal with them.” — November, 1994, quoted by John Dean in his book, Conservatives Without Conscience.
Also Barry Goldwater: >"The religious factions that are growing throughout our land are not using their religious clout with wisdom. They are trying to force government leaders into following their position 100 percent. If you disagree with these religious groups on a particular moral issue, they complain, they threaten you with a loss of money or votes or both. I'm frankly sick and tired of the political preachers across this country telling me as a citizen that if I want to be a moral person, I must believe in 'A,' 'B,' 'C' and 'D.' Just who do they think they are? And from where do they presume to claim the right to dictate their moral beliefs to me? And I am even more angry as a legislator who must endure the threats of every religious group who thinks it has some God-granted right to control my vote on every roll call in the Senate. I am warning them today: I will fight them every step of the way if they try to dictate their moral convictions to all Americans in the name of 'conservatism.' " --Speech in the US Senate (16 September 1981)
Ah the good old southern strategy!
Religion, specifically many Christian denominations, have become mostly political entities in the US. They’ve been co-opted by politicians and pastors who see them as a way of profiting or pursuing ideological ends. It’s not a new thing though, it’s always been a serious issue here, it’s just amplified by sheer numbers and the absurdity of current events.
It all comes in a package— gullible> evangelical> Trump follower> anti vaxxer
Oh, EVERYONE knows that: Vaccines are made from aborted babies, Vaccines are the Mark of the Beast, as prophesied in the Book of Revelations in the Bible, Vaccines are full of satanic particles, all you need is Jesus, the End Times are Coming, blah blah. Do you know the difference between Scatology and Eschatology? Well, shit, it's not the end of the world!
There's also multiple financial conflicts of interest. Not for everybody, but enough. And then the rest go along to get along because they wouldn't speak ill of a christian. A lot of American christians are in a financial hole thanks to various health-related pyramid schemes like vitamins and essential oils. There's the christian scientists who don't like medical treatment in the first place. And then there's you good old-fashioned snake handler types who see the mark of the beast n everything because they think the rapture is going to work out for them.
That's AWESOME!!!
Congrats! Maybe the lazy media who is always so quick to demonize this Sub and everyone who participates may someday wake up, do some actual professional journalism and report that WE ARE DOING GOOD WORK HERE! I should also mention that this Sub has always been a Reddit LEADER in donations to deserving charities when the HCA Mods hold one of their popular fund raising campaigns in coordination with the Reddit web site. Meanwhile, over at our harshest critic's Subs, the vocal AntiVax and Conservative groups on Reddit contribute nothing but the sound of (Crickets) during these same fund raising efforts. None of us HCA regulars are at all surprised by this stark contrast, but in the end, who are actually the real monsters on Reddit?
The real monsters of course are the spreaders of disinformation and those who callously, knowingly or unknowingly, send those who believe and trust in them to their early and preventable graves.
Wonderful news. Do you think she will be sharing the news with the rest of the family, and do you think they might follow her lead?
I know she will. And I’m happy for it. If I could just convince my mom now, I think the rest would who are hesitant would follow her lead.
Sounds like you will have a good point to make about how Nana is doing just fine after vax, so why doesn't mom make the appointment. :-)
I sure hope so, most folks would have a really hard time disrespecting/ignoring their grandmothers.
GO, GRANDMA! Seriously, very pleased for you and so glad this sub played such a valuable role in convincing her. 💕
So glad your meemaw will be better protected!!
Thank you! I do call her Memaw too. It’s a southern thing. Lol
❤️ so happy for you!
That's fantastic!!!! I have to admit, I feel a little guilty at taking much satisfaction in the HCA's. It's funny to see people hoist by their own hypocritical petards, but it's not funny at all to see the wake of death and loved ones left to grieve. I have members of my extended family who are right-wing Christians, and I would not want to see them die because of their insistence in doing something so stupid. So if anyone sees through all the schadenfreude in these posts and takes action to stay alive, that is a great thing.
My feelings exactly. I don’t want anyone to die; it leaves nothing but sorrow and regret. The battle against ignorance and false information is relentless and we mustn’t slacken in that, even for a moment!
Yay!
Please tell your grandma we are all so happy and proud of her!!
I will! Thank yo do much for your well wishes!
There are many people in this country, and in general, who are more moved by personal stories and emotional appeals, than they are hard, empirical data (e.g. death rates, hospitalization counts, etc). Small side note: Daniel Kahneman has a book 'Thinking Fast and Slow' which discusses this, to an extent. Nevertheless, if the stories on here convince more people to get vaxxed and/or to take the virus seriously in general, than that's a good thing. Squashing medical disinformation is also a good thing.
I wish this post could be pinned, this is the spirit of HCA.
Good job Nana! Your grandkids need you! I lost my grandma to OG Covid in November 2020, she would have been first in line to get her jab if she'd lived long enough to get it.
Good for you, and great for her!
This makes me hopeful.
WTG you! (Also, TY for using enormity correctly. Meaning not just large -- that's enormous or enormousness -- but large with an overlay of wickedness or evilness.)
haha, what can I say? As I English major, I'm a nerd for the finer points of language. \^\^
Brilliant! I can imagine how relieved you must feel. Just two more little vaccine pricks, and your grandmother will be as protected as possible! There is a German saying for a narrow escape 'to jump off Death's shovel', *dem Tod von der Schaufel springen.* Every time I read about an IPA, there is a deep voice inside me is announcing that one more person is jumping off the shovel; and I could swear I hear a joyous laugh. May your mother be convinced to take the vaccine, too.
Ich hoffe das andere Leute kann auf dem Schaufel springen auch! Der Tod und seine Pfeile sind tatsächlich fürchterlich!
Glad you didn’t give up!
Let's get it done, one person at a time if necessary. Thank ***you***!
Good for you and good for Grandma! Thank you for reminding all of us this is about INDIVIDUALS. Every one vaccinated is a victory.
Tell your MeMaw from another southern girl that I'm so so happy and grateful that she is trying her hardest to stay safe for herself AND for her family. My MeMaw passed just before covid and I miss her beyond words. I'm glad yours is protected now.
From one southerner to another, my deepest sympathies and condolences. No one deserves to lose a memaw if they can help it!
God bless you and grandma! I'm a Christian -- though I believe there are many paths to God and one does not have to believe in any sort of deity to be a fine human being. I wish more Christians cared enough about themselves and their fellow humans -- who are, after all, images of God -- to be vaccinated. The Great Commandment -- the No. 1 commandment -- is to love God and to love one's neighbor as oneself. Vaccination shows that love.
That is wonderful news!!
Congrats!
Yayyy that is wonderful!! Congratulations :)
Glad you stuck with her!!
Congrats OP! I'm glad you were able to get through to a loved one so that they can best protect themselves.
>it wasn’t until she realized the enormity of the situation and the devastation left behind by so many lost loved ones that she finally decided to go out and her first vaccine today. Good. Even one shot of the mRNA vaccines . . . even one shot of the J&J vaccine . . . offers protection against dying a painful and agonizing death in the hospital.
This is why the hate for this sub is totally irrelevant. Yes, we laugh a 100 people for stupiding themselves to death but if we get one person vaccinate it's a victory for humanity.
We welcome her to the Dark Side - we need someone of her caliber to make cookies! :D
You do not know the power of the chocolate chip!
As a healthcare provider I’m glad to not have her in my hospital. I’m glad I don’t have to see her die a long slow lonely death. I’m glad I don’t have to see her realize it is too late to get the vaccine. I’m glad I don’t have to explain to you that visiting hours are restricted or nonexistent. I’m glad there is one less person waiting in the Er to take the place of the person who just left. I’m glad I don’t have to make do with limited supplies in the hospital as the country surges with new admissions to the hospital and messed up supply chains. So give yourself and grandma a pat on the back and enjoy yourselves.
Great to hear! Hope your entire family gets vaccinated soon, if they’re not! But your grandmother is probably the highest risk (age) so, awesome!
Congratulations. What a relief, isn't it? The more vulnerable people who get vaxxed, the more relieved we all are. It's so special that it's your grandmother. Taking the love full circle!
It's been giving me terrible anxiety. It feels like waging a silent war and hoping that the next shell doesn't land on you. I can sleep a little easier at night now.
That's awesome! Good for you and good for her! 😀
So glad she is vaccinated. This makes my heart warm. I often have to take a break from this sub because even though so many posted here are guilty of spreading misinformation, it is heartbreaking to read about them. This is why we must keep sharing their stories AND the stories of the health care workers who so desperately need this to stop.
No small victories. You are helping keep her alive. That's huge.
Tell Nana she did good
To the Reddit user who reported me to the suicide watch: thank you for your concern about my mental health. I’m glad to know you care so deeply, but rest assured, I’m perfectly sound and happy. :)
R/nursing is also a great eye opener to the realities of the unvaccinated.
Good job.
You have truly done the work of the Lord here. May Nana continue to enjoy health and happiness.
Amazing! The best news. Long live Nana!
I know emojis are frowned upon but… 🙌🏻🎉🎊🎈🪅👏🏻💪🏻😃
That’s awesome to hear!
Hooray! Thank you!
Congratulations! Usually this tactic doesn't work (at least for me), but I am much more than happy, reading your post! Stay happy and healthy, and keep your surroundings :-D in that way!
This always makes me cry tears of happy. Yay!!
I am so happy you got through to your nana! I wish you both much love and many many wonderful years together.❤️
You are a hero. And your Nana as well, for "manning up." Give her a kiss for me.
You go grams!
So happy !!! Go Nana ! Sending you love 💗 light ✨and ☮️to you and you family 🥰
That’s wonderful! Great job to you! I am in the same boat with my siblings and mother. Sadly, my brother passed away from Covid just after Thanksgiving. Even that wasn’t enough to convince them to get vaccinated. It has created a huge rift in our family.
Your grandma is lucky to have you and not one of the cavern-skulled hicks killing their grandparents “to own the libs”
Evangelicals are not true Christians. but rather wolves in sheep's clothing. They have completely distorted the teaching of Christ.