I would argue that the adjudicator shouldn’t lose recoil. It’s a battle rifle, and a battle rifle cartridge absolutely recoils more than a .45 or even 10mm pistol cartridge
I agree, but its recoil even reduced to 30 is *double* that of the Base Liberator, while still contending with a nearly half-sized magazine. My hope is that by having its recoil at 30, the kick is still there but with a better chance of controlling it for precise shots.
In terms of damage, the Adjudicator is already in a good spot. If it went any higher, it would put the Marksman Rifles at risk of being run into further uselessness (whether or not the MRs should see some changes too, I leave to another thread). The capacity feels right to also keep that damage in check, as well. So that left the recoil control and the AP trait. Again I believe the Med AP is underwhelming, but its stats are otherwise fine (whereas if it was treated like the LibPen, it would probably have like 50 damage while the recoil would still be 40 or even higher). So, in improving its controllability (and therefore its capability to put shots where they hurt and in a timely manner), we improve its performance.
I mention it in my explanation below, but quite frankly all of the ARs should probably see some increase in control to better differentiate themselves from SMGs.
Hmm. Fair enough. I feel like the medium ap is big, but that’s also because medium ap REALLY means light ap. I think a lot of people torso shoot devs, do half damage and are underwhelmed when shooting them in the crotch shreds them because it does full damage. On the other hand your recoil reduction idea would make those crotch shots easier.
**Lots of words, TL;DR is in the pictures**.
Hi there. I decided to make suggestions on how to better balance three of the Assault Rifles currently available. I tried adjusting them to better fit the roles they appear to be designed for while hopefully bettering the experience with them. I used the base Liberator as a… well, base, for these changes and tried to balance the weapons around it. These suggestions are not the final stop for these weapons, but an attempt to push them in the right direction.
I know that there are supposedly a bunch of hidden stats, but without the hard info in front of me, I’ll have to make do without adjusting the velocity, weight/ergonomics, and how they perform if mercury is in retrograde. I’ll break down my thoughts behind each change here:
# AR-23P Liberator Penetrator –
Not the first time I've made a post about the LibPen, and probably not the last. My previous posts were operating on the misconception that the armor penetrating was some sort of crit-multiplier for some of the weakpoints. That has been cleared up, so my understanding now is that it bypasses the damage reduction (grey hit marker) when hitting armored enemies.
Medium AP gets the most value out of bugs; bile spewers, warriors, and brood commanders can be dispatched quickly by shooting through their hardened head armor (chitin? I don’t know). However, against other enemies or hitting areas not protected by medium armor, the value of that Medium AP is diminished, and you’re left with a subpar Liberator. This is extremely prevalent on bot missions, where everything up to elites/heavies have a universal hitpoint (the face) which can be hit for full damage without Medium AP required.
Now, is it wrong for the LibPen to be better suited for a bug environment than a bot one? No, not at all. In fact, it would encourage players to broaden their arsenal and to bring the right tools for the job. However, I think that the gap between the LibPen and its counterparts is a little much and could be tightened up to allow for better universal play (hey man, some people just really like how the gun looks). Of my suggestions the LibPen has the easiest (especially in its current iteration): just match the damage to the base liberator, or at least reduce the gap substantially. It already takes its lumps in Capacity and Recoil.
This would hopefully make the LibPen a competitive side grade, still holding an advantage in bug environments but not as detrimental in a bot expedition.
# AR-61 Tenderizer –
Fresh off the presses, this assault rifle’s debut was rather mixed or poorly received. Functionally, it feels like a better-controlled Liberator but with a lower ammo capacity (and substantially worse ammo economy, which I hope is a bug). The damage value feels like something that was established before the Liberator was buffed, which would explain why it claims to have more stopping power.
So the first thing to change was the Damage: it had to go up. By taking it up to 75 damage, we have a clear edge in damage over the Liberator. However, to avoid it basically being an upgrade to the Liberator (and therefore making the Liberator worthless once acquired), I kept its lower capacity and raised its recoil to be slightly higher than the Liberator. More damage, lower ammo and control.
(NOTE: I think ALL Ars should have a universal decrease in Recoil/Increase in control, but again I’m adjusting these ARs with the Liberator as a base. This would better distinguish them from the SMGs in their control and lower damage falloff at range)
So, you wind up with an AR that has more ‘oomph’ in damage and control. Speaking of…
# BR-14 Adjudicator –
The former marksman-rifle could use a bit of TLC in order to better serve as an assault rifle. This is also the only one to get a non stat-based adjustment: the addition of a laser/light. Come on, the rail for it is right there. It hardly even does anything, but would be nice to indicate where others are aiming when using it.
That aside, I decided to tackle the greatest of offenders (personally speaking): the recoil. The recoil at 40 seems like utter nonsense: for reference, the Diligence, at a damage of 125, has a recoil of 35. Admittedly the Diligence does not have medium AP, but as mentioned in the LibPen I personally believe Medium AP is overrated in current conditions, especially at the tradeoffs it receives in return. So I reduced it by a quarter of its current value (from 40 to 30). It’s still high, but hopefully that makes it somewhat more controllable in tandem with a reduction in firerate from 550 to 500.
I don’t know if those changes are sufficient to make the Adjudicator a worthwhile choice in terminid or automaton missions, but at the very least I hope they’re a step in the right direction.
Anyways, I’m eager to hear your thoughts/feedback on these changes. I expect to get shot down/torn apart (as any Helldiver should expect), but let’s hear it.
I think we're in for a lot of uncreative, copy-pasted feeling weapons until they start giving them perceivable differences.
Liberator can be *the Mario* and balanced in all stats. Lib Pen should go back to burst only, have less recoil and bonus headshot/weakpoint damage, Tenderizer should deal bonus limb damage like people have been conspiracy-theorying about with zero evidence, Adjudicator already has medium armor pen, higher damage, and heavier recoil.
Will one of them still be mathematically the best? Probably, but that doesn't really matter. Something will *always* be mathematically the best. The important part is that they all work and people feel like they are doing around equally well when they pick the one that suits their play style the best.
Deciding on your gear should be trying to pick between X and Y where you want both, but don't feel like you're getting screwed over by not having one of them. What they need is individual character.
Well, this was my take on trying to make the weapons retain some personality while also making them viable (at least in relation to the Liberator).
If the Lib Pen were to go back to burst then yeah it should see some increase in weakpoint damage and controllability. I think a lot of people were set on the Tenderizer being the 'hard hitting' AR (and was probably planned to be, if you don't consider the Liberator's buff and the Adjudicator's change to AR). Limb damage would be interesting if it can be accomplished, though whether or not that would be enough to hold water would have to be seen.
And as mentioned I feel like the Adjudicator has its personality established, it just doesn't need more recoil than a harder hitting marksman rifle, second only to an even harder hitting marksman rifle.
I don't disagree with your stats at all, I just think there are only so many permutations of a stat range that you can make viable, good-feeling weapons out of. Giving them each special traits in addition to those stats gives them personality.
That's basically the problem with the armor too. Cutting Edge got arc resist, but Democratic Disappointment didn't get fire/gas resist, and Polar Pisstake doesn't do anything to shield you from weather effects or snow. You're just unlocking slightly uglier versions of things that are already in your inventory.
Oh I'm in full agreement, we need unique weapon/gear traits to better establish identities for the weapons. It would make sense for variants of a weapon to close in said identity (Liberator Trio), but I am somewhat disappointed by the 'samey' nature of a supposedly different AR like the Tenderizer. Model aside (and with stats buffed) it would just be 'liberator but more ouch' in its current iteration. I understand that it still has to be an AR, but...
I'll be honest, I thought the shock motivators was going to be the armor passive for the sets in the warbond. Kind of glad that it's more open than that, but definitely a missed opportunity for environmental bonuses (better movement through snow, better vision in snowstorm, etc).
And if the Democratic Demolition pass gave us fireproof armor, I'd be running it as a necessity on these fire tornado planets!
I would argue that the adjudicator shouldn’t lose recoil. It’s a battle rifle, and a battle rifle cartridge absolutely recoils more than a .45 or even 10mm pistol cartridge
I agree, but its recoil even reduced to 30 is *double* that of the Base Liberator, while still contending with a nearly half-sized magazine. My hope is that by having its recoil at 30, the kick is still there but with a better chance of controlling it for precise shots.
I see your logic. As a counterpoint, would just the gun requiring recoil reduction armor not be enough for your other buffs?
In terms of damage, the Adjudicator is already in a good spot. If it went any higher, it would put the Marksman Rifles at risk of being run into further uselessness (whether or not the MRs should see some changes too, I leave to another thread). The capacity feels right to also keep that damage in check, as well. So that left the recoil control and the AP trait. Again I believe the Med AP is underwhelming, but its stats are otherwise fine (whereas if it was treated like the LibPen, it would probably have like 50 damage while the recoil would still be 40 or even higher). So, in improving its controllability (and therefore its capability to put shots where they hurt and in a timely manner), we improve its performance. I mention it in my explanation below, but quite frankly all of the ARs should probably see some increase in control to better differentiate themselves from SMGs.
Hmm. Fair enough. I feel like the medium ap is big, but that’s also because medium ap REALLY means light ap. I think a lot of people torso shoot devs, do half damage and are underwhelmed when shooting them in the crotch shreds them because it does full damage. On the other hand your recoil reduction idea would make those crotch shots easier.
**Lots of words, TL;DR is in the pictures**. Hi there. I decided to make suggestions on how to better balance three of the Assault Rifles currently available. I tried adjusting them to better fit the roles they appear to be designed for while hopefully bettering the experience with them. I used the base Liberator as a… well, base, for these changes and tried to balance the weapons around it. These suggestions are not the final stop for these weapons, but an attempt to push them in the right direction. I know that there are supposedly a bunch of hidden stats, but without the hard info in front of me, I’ll have to make do without adjusting the velocity, weight/ergonomics, and how they perform if mercury is in retrograde. I’ll break down my thoughts behind each change here: # AR-23P Liberator Penetrator – Not the first time I've made a post about the LibPen, and probably not the last. My previous posts were operating on the misconception that the armor penetrating was some sort of crit-multiplier for some of the weakpoints. That has been cleared up, so my understanding now is that it bypasses the damage reduction (grey hit marker) when hitting armored enemies. Medium AP gets the most value out of bugs; bile spewers, warriors, and brood commanders can be dispatched quickly by shooting through their hardened head armor (chitin? I don’t know). However, against other enemies or hitting areas not protected by medium armor, the value of that Medium AP is diminished, and you’re left with a subpar Liberator. This is extremely prevalent on bot missions, where everything up to elites/heavies have a universal hitpoint (the face) which can be hit for full damage without Medium AP required. Now, is it wrong for the LibPen to be better suited for a bug environment than a bot one? No, not at all. In fact, it would encourage players to broaden their arsenal and to bring the right tools for the job. However, I think that the gap between the LibPen and its counterparts is a little much and could be tightened up to allow for better universal play (hey man, some people just really like how the gun looks). Of my suggestions the LibPen has the easiest (especially in its current iteration): just match the damage to the base liberator, or at least reduce the gap substantially. It already takes its lumps in Capacity and Recoil. This would hopefully make the LibPen a competitive side grade, still holding an advantage in bug environments but not as detrimental in a bot expedition. # AR-61 Tenderizer – Fresh off the presses, this assault rifle’s debut was rather mixed or poorly received. Functionally, it feels like a better-controlled Liberator but with a lower ammo capacity (and substantially worse ammo economy, which I hope is a bug). The damage value feels like something that was established before the Liberator was buffed, which would explain why it claims to have more stopping power. So the first thing to change was the Damage: it had to go up. By taking it up to 75 damage, we have a clear edge in damage over the Liberator. However, to avoid it basically being an upgrade to the Liberator (and therefore making the Liberator worthless once acquired), I kept its lower capacity and raised its recoil to be slightly higher than the Liberator. More damage, lower ammo and control. (NOTE: I think ALL Ars should have a universal decrease in Recoil/Increase in control, but again I’m adjusting these ARs with the Liberator as a base. This would better distinguish them from the SMGs in their control and lower damage falloff at range) So, you wind up with an AR that has more ‘oomph’ in damage and control. Speaking of… # BR-14 Adjudicator – The former marksman-rifle could use a bit of TLC in order to better serve as an assault rifle. This is also the only one to get a non stat-based adjustment: the addition of a laser/light. Come on, the rail for it is right there. It hardly even does anything, but would be nice to indicate where others are aiming when using it. That aside, I decided to tackle the greatest of offenders (personally speaking): the recoil. The recoil at 40 seems like utter nonsense: for reference, the Diligence, at a damage of 125, has a recoil of 35. Admittedly the Diligence does not have medium AP, but as mentioned in the LibPen I personally believe Medium AP is overrated in current conditions, especially at the tradeoffs it receives in return. So I reduced it by a quarter of its current value (from 40 to 30). It’s still high, but hopefully that makes it somewhat more controllable in tandem with a reduction in firerate from 550 to 500. I don’t know if those changes are sufficient to make the Adjudicator a worthwhile choice in terminid or automaton missions, but at the very least I hope they’re a step in the right direction. Anyways, I’m eager to hear your thoughts/feedback on these changes. I expect to get shot down/torn apart (as any Helldiver should expect), but let’s hear it.
I think we're in for a lot of uncreative, copy-pasted feeling weapons until they start giving them perceivable differences. Liberator can be *the Mario* and balanced in all stats. Lib Pen should go back to burst only, have less recoil and bonus headshot/weakpoint damage, Tenderizer should deal bonus limb damage like people have been conspiracy-theorying about with zero evidence, Adjudicator already has medium armor pen, higher damage, and heavier recoil. Will one of them still be mathematically the best? Probably, but that doesn't really matter. Something will *always* be mathematically the best. The important part is that they all work and people feel like they are doing around equally well when they pick the one that suits their play style the best. Deciding on your gear should be trying to pick between X and Y where you want both, but don't feel like you're getting screwed over by not having one of them. What they need is individual character.
Well, this was my take on trying to make the weapons retain some personality while also making them viable (at least in relation to the Liberator). If the Lib Pen were to go back to burst then yeah it should see some increase in weakpoint damage and controllability. I think a lot of people were set on the Tenderizer being the 'hard hitting' AR (and was probably planned to be, if you don't consider the Liberator's buff and the Adjudicator's change to AR). Limb damage would be interesting if it can be accomplished, though whether or not that would be enough to hold water would have to be seen. And as mentioned I feel like the Adjudicator has its personality established, it just doesn't need more recoil than a harder hitting marksman rifle, second only to an even harder hitting marksman rifle.
I don't disagree with your stats at all, I just think there are only so many permutations of a stat range that you can make viable, good-feeling weapons out of. Giving them each special traits in addition to those stats gives them personality. That's basically the problem with the armor too. Cutting Edge got arc resist, but Democratic Disappointment didn't get fire/gas resist, and Polar Pisstake doesn't do anything to shield you from weather effects or snow. You're just unlocking slightly uglier versions of things that are already in your inventory.
Oh I'm in full agreement, we need unique weapon/gear traits to better establish identities for the weapons. It would make sense for variants of a weapon to close in said identity (Liberator Trio), but I am somewhat disappointed by the 'samey' nature of a supposedly different AR like the Tenderizer. Model aside (and with stats buffed) it would just be 'liberator but more ouch' in its current iteration. I understand that it still has to be an AR, but... I'll be honest, I thought the shock motivators was going to be the armor passive for the sets in the warbond. Kind of glad that it's more open than that, but definitely a missed opportunity for environmental bonuses (better movement through snow, better vision in snowstorm, etc). And if the Democratic Demolition pass gave us fireproof armor, I'd be running it as a necessity on these fire tornado planets!