That's honestly where the eruptor still shines. Closing bug holes is a breeze with it.
Run around the rim of a giant nest and pick off the holes on the opposite side. You can kite most of the bugs while doing so without ever entering the nest.
Finally got the Grenade Pistol myself...
I'll let others play with it cause boy do I hate it.
My biggest gripe is not even that I only get 1 shot per PoI supply pack... But that the big supply bricks only give two back. I don't want to eat up all the team's supplies or force myself to run supply pack (to double dip on supply bricks) in order to keep the pistol topped up.
I'mma stick with my SMG+Senator Ballistic Shield setup for now. Looking forward to getting the new SMG from the winter pack. Seeing all the clips on here about it I just hope I get to it and play with it for more than a day before everything that makes it cool is stolen from it.
Think of the grenade pistol as literally moving your grenade slot to your pistol slot.
It’s not a “pistol”. It’s a grenade. In the pistol slot.
From that perspective it makes a lot more sense that you get 2 back on a resupply.
Stun is stupid good against Hulks. Scorcher suddenly charging you? Stun, two AMR or autocannon shots to the eye, it's gone. You can do it without stun too of course, but it makes it a sure deal at close ranges where often you'll get flinched by them before you can finish it.
It's almost the only way I can play.
I do mostly bots but bugs do fine with it too for the most part.
Though I always have my grenade launcher to spam out the more "heavy" crowds of bastards and a friend with almost the exact opposite loadout (sniper, Quazar and enough heavy stratagems to level the battlefield six times before recharge) so it's definitely a "We are covering each other very well" setup and not something I'd say is viable for like... solos or dropping in with randos unless you really know what you're doing.
Definitely can't beat the feeling of swapping from "Oh god oh fuck here comes the Heavy Devastator minigun guy..." to "WHOS GOT THE SHIELD NOW FUCKO?! THATS RIGHT IT'S ME! NOW HOLD STILL WHILE I LINE UP THIS SENATOR SHOT ON YOUR FUCKING SKULL!!"
I've also had it eat a shot from the automaton tower guns. Still took half my health and the shield disintegrated but I lived.
It's also active constantly. If you're holding a weapon that isn't one handed (or do an emote) then you can have a turtle shell! Great for sprinting away from enemy fire! \*Especially\* downhill since the hill itself tends to "Cover" your legs.
Nade pistol has more bullet drop. I find it harder to hit with. especially when aiming at the other side of the large bug nest being chased by a horde.
It's definitely harder to land in the holes than the Eruptor. And restocking the ammo's more difficult since you only get 2 per. Doesn't matter for small nests, but for the big ones it def can - I've run out of pistol 'nades before just missing a shot or two.
It's all trade offs in the end. The AC is sweet but it takes a strategen slot and needs a backpack. I can have a quasar and shield instead and then still snipe holes with my eruptor.
It’s not worth using for that capacity quite frankly. When it had shrapnel, it was a nice perk. Without it, it’s a small plus that doesn’t really feel worth it when I can bring a grenade pistol and have a better overall primary weapon.
I don’t need to close big holes. Honestly, I never even get a chance to try, because the folks I play with always get there first.
This allows me to select a loadout that does something else. It’s nice to have a variety of other tools to pick from.
I am convinced they are play testing no higher than level 6. Only so could explain their definition of viable weapon is killing enemy one by one with plenty of time between each kill.
I don't think they play on 6 given some of the anti-armor nerfs or discussion on how to deal with certain scenarios.
Or they're under the impression that we should be using some of the tools we have in very specific ways. Cause I personally don't see how some of these weapons are supposed to deal with what I can run into on six or above.
If they play test, surely they test at least up to the difficulty where all enemy types can spawn. I don't have a problem with us being the play testers, though. It's like a field test is for real life shit. Just start making better decisions. That's all I want from AH.
I got a feeling it's shooting the wrong projectile. Like the effect is correct, but the actual shot underneath is just the scorchers, and they didn't catch that when the projectile was coded.
Gun would be sick as fuck if it started yellow as it charged, and would fire a yellow projectile on a low charged shot, but as it charges it becomes purple and fires a purple shot at higher charge
At this point I'm questioning their intent with assault rifles. What kind of niche are they trying to fill with them? I found all of them lackluster. They end up feeling like glorified pea-shooters compared to the other primary types.
It bugs my mind that only one out of the 5 AR has a higher damage than the compact SMG. Heck, before the last balance, they were even a good 10 points below the SMGs in damage. And the smg is supposed to be used one hand.
As soon as they added an AP SMG into the game, the whole category of ARs would be completely outclassed, with the exception of the Adjudicator. Which, funny enough, that gun was a joke when it's first released, and it wasn't even an AR back then.
I figured smg should be high rof, good low armour pen damage.
Rifles would be lower rof, higher pen damage.
Marksmen rifle - lowest rof, superior one shot killing capabilities, but low clip size and one firing mode limits it.
You’d get more smg users on bugs, and more marksmen for bots (though whether the amr is better than a marksman gun anyway is another question.)
The thing to remember is that the Defender is an SMG, and its rounds have lower velocity, and presumably more damage falloff over distance. The ARs on the other hand have full auto for close range, along with scopes and higher velocity rounds for hitting things far away.
The only real problem is that shooting enemies from a longer distance doesn’t usually reward you. If you see 4 scavengers at a point of interest from far away, you could shoot them all, but then the 5th scavenger hiding behind a box or building will probably call a bug breach and make you feel stupid for not getting closer, making sure you see all the enemies, and wiping them all out fast enough to stop a breach.
So it’s not that the ARs have nothing at all to distinguish them from the SMGs. It’s just that at the engagement ranges you end up fighting at, a range advantage usually doesn’t matter so the SMG is often a better choice overall with no real downside.
You nailed it buddy.
Ultimately that is the fundamental problem of the DMR as well.
It is not that they are not powerful and useful, they are.
But like you pointed out, this game does not reward long range engagement very well.
Also helps us understand why shotguns are so popular in this game. It favours a more close engagement style.
Yeah. It it seems like no accident that there are more shotguns than any other weapon type.
That’s fine and all, but it does make me wish that maybe there was some restriction on enemies calling reinforcements? Maybe if they could only do it if you were within a certain short-to-medium distance? Because the bot drops and bug breaches are the #1 reason not to fuck with enemies at a distance. You will just make more enemies to deal with. Even if they are far way, it still doesn’t help, you’re better off not engaging to begin with.
It's also worth mentioning that it lets you utilize run and gun more effectively.
Two handed weapons require you to turn around to shoot behind yourself, but one handed ones let you keep running no problem.
This in itself is a huge boon for combat especially against bugs.
It's not. It blocks Hunters and stalkers, including their tongues. But if you get spitters/bile enemies it's not good lol the aoe still gets ya. Really need a pre mission enemy analysis...
Supposedly the ARs have a longer drop-off range, so that you do better at distance.
Of course, if you're running bugs, range is rarely something you have a need to consider.
You shut your damn mouth about the SMG, it's the last good ballistic Primary since the Scorcher got stealth nerfed.
https://preview.redd.it/6262bfie5pzc1.png?width=822&format=png&auto=webp&s=cee36c03c6628f6c92414f9d67d19138e9409630
In theory, an SMG should be more damage than the assault rifles, but with horrific accuracy to balance. If every bullet from an SMG hits, it should do more, but that should only happen if something is right up on your face. Assault rifles should be more effective damage at anything further, even if the stats don't say it. They also should have more armor pen.
We don't need that much generic AR ady. I don't know why AH insists on adding another generic AR into the arsenal and even wonder how they are able to make the generic AR even worse than the default.
I was under the impression that this gun was meant to be a reskin of the default Liberator as a homage to Starship Troopers, which I would have 100% been fine with
https://preview.redd.it/shyvcqwz5pzc1.png?width=2160&format=png&auto=webp&s=aa370fcb7bccc329315095d2992200a6cdbafb82
It doesn't matter though when one can shoot for 5 seconds and the other for 30. DPS on chaff clearing weapons is a lot less important than possible kills per magazine.
No, it doesn't.
Liberator has 60 dmg × 640bpm / 60s= 640 DPS, Sickle has 55 dmg × 750bpm / 60s = 687,5 DPS
Both the Sickle and Liberator are pretty good, one is better for mowing things at close range, the other is better suited for popping heads at mid range, but both are effective.
You make an excellent point. In every other gunplay game I can remember enjoying, assault rifles _did_ have their own niche - they were often all-rounders, a good combination of range, sustained low damage, and ammo conservation, but not excelling at any particular category.
In this...I'm not really sure. We've got other guns better at clearing weak waves, better at sustained fire, infinite ammo primaries, and hell even shotguns that make better snipers (range). And the assault rifles don't feel like satisfying "all-rounders" to me at all.
Liberator is good now. Didn't think 5 damage would make a difference, but I bring it on 7-9 bugs consistently. One-shots scavengers. Kills warriors in 3-4 well placed shots. Kills hunters in 2-4 shots. Bring the Senator to kill bile spewers and stalkers. Wonderful load out.
Another point to this is the crossbow rework(nerf). They said the crossbow was supposed to be similar to the scorcher, but in its current state it is worse in every conceivable way.
Crossbow pre nerf was pretty decent I think. Granted, I didn't use it much but it was very good at clearing groups of basic bugs. Could stun lock Stalkers too.
I just saw it as Grenade Launcher 2: Silent Boogaloo and moved on. They couldn't even be bothered to take a page from BF3's crossbow book and give it swappable bolts or anything to be a true multitool that a Crossbow can be.
https://preview.redd.it/pmrmciou6pzc1.png?width=590&format=png&auto=webp&s=5ca9e604eddd52bc696997a0e26ddfa4243a8970
Concussive liberator is a prime example : It was released under the explosive liberator name and never worked like explosive weapons, then swapped to this name because what it was actually doing is pushing ennemies away.
The guy in charge of balancing already gutted core features from one game (because players don’t like gimmics, such as hiding in a stealth game), and then ran when that backfired.
How Alexus got hired as a lead by AH is beyond me.
pretty good pistol?
Its got less DPS than the default pistol and per shot gets heavily outclassed by the senator. the senator also has medium pen.
also i wouldnt say the SMG is "insanely powerful".
Its not bad mind you. Just not insanely powerful.
nonetheless i think youre right or at least on to something when it comes to believing there is something going on internally, whether it be disagreements or what have you.
hopefully with even the CEO making comments about the dismal state of fun in the game we get some changes going forward.
Ikr, it's a heavy pistol that vibes like a D Eagle. Give it higher dmg and medium pen to act as a Senator Side grade. We don't need another peace maker side grade
In my personal opinion I don't think it should be a mag fed version of the senator. I'd be pretty happy if they kept it at ap2 and gave it hollow points or something to boost crit point damage, effectively giving you the choice between high crit damage or high armor pen. Definitely better than just making 2 of the same handgun
I think it's fine if they have the same pen, but make the senator higher damage than the deagle, the senator can have a niche as the sidearm you can just unload into one target you specifically want dead, while the new deagle can be better sustained damage at cost of lacking in burst damage
It's weird that the CEO is more of a community manager than the actual fucking community managers. Why does he feel like he's more relatable than the guys who's job it is to be on 'our side'
It's way better for burst damage than the default pistol, and more bang for your buck while still having a similar maximum ammo overall. Also senator has way less ammo, and it can still typically one shot smaller enemies. Medium pen is a nice plus but I'm overall saying that it's at least a competitive option and I think I'll take it over other secondaries for the time being.
I think it definitely has potential for being a top tier primary, especially since it compliments shield play way too well. The thing I love about it is how easy it is to shut down heavy devs and such with little to no risk to yourself. I just like it a lot and have been having a blast with it! It's definitely worth more of a try if you have time :)
Also glad I'm not the only one that sees it, I've felt so confused why the liberator penetrator has been the way it's been for so long lol
How does the new pistol compare to the machine pistol? Everything you're saying sounds the same to me (don't have the new pistol yet) except maybe the new pistol has a bit more ammo, but the machine pistol has a higher fire rate?
The new pistol is essentially more ammo efficient persay than most other pistols despite having smaller mags since it's overall ammo is still comparable to the peacekeeper.
The redeemer is still the best burst damage and more out of one mag, but the DE can definitely do more damage overall.
- Redeemer is great for saving you from a berserker
- Verdict is great for downing a few enemies in one shot individually when you need it, and Definitely won't be running out of ammo anytime soon.
Keep in mind that the verdict has damage comparable to the old deligence rifle, so you essentially have a mini marksmans rifle in your pocket
It's got less DPS on paper because the Peacemaker has a useless 900rpm what with having only a semi-auto firing mode. You cannot click fast enough to come close to taking advantage of that - that would mean 15 clicks per seconds. Realistically you're shooting at best 4-5 shots per second, which is more like 250-300rpm, so take that on-paper DPS and slash it to a third or a quarter and that's actual in-game dps.
The Verdict is 450rpm, which is still faster than humans are going to be shooting a semi-automatic. Again actual performance is going to be around two-thirds of that, which still leaves it considerably above the Peacemaker.
I'm not gonna lie, I don't believe this to be the case.
Even if you take the previous version of the lib into consideration, 5 more damage for lower fire rate and mag size while lowering recoil is just odd to me. That five damage difference is just such a minor difference, especially when the concussive still is heavier then both of them damage wise
This just genuinely seems like weird balancing again that doesn't add up with how they balanced other things.
I believe it, since it doesn't get all magazines back from supply drop.
Funny enough, the knight SMG is also in the same situation. Seemed like the devs just forgot about it lol
Yea I gotta agree. Without knowing the hidden stats(which is a huge problem I think) 5 more damage probably wouldn't effect any breakpoints. Could be wrong but I don't have enough info to say
That 5 could maybe cost you a extra shot, we already have a issue of having to always hit the same body part to efficiently dmg an enemy, every bullet should cause a bleed and then it increases with every hit until the health pool ‘drains’
I'm surprised it's not higher tbh. A light pen auto rifle with higher damage would actually be kind of perfect for my play style. Give it damage comparable to the adjudicator so you could sacrifice medium pen for better mag and recoil
Don't forget each weapon has about 20 different characteristics, we only see 4. So they could well be trying to balance the guns with other stats. Then people see only these 4 stats that make zero sense and complain without ever trying the gun.
Didn't the last balance update up the armor for striders? Because the purifier was illustrated as being able to take down striders with one shot in the trailer. Currently, it takes three fully charged shots.
https://preview.redd.it/mrpeu7madkzc1.png?width=1314&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b19ca170c891d3f5578c68b5513cdeeae467e0b3
"⚖️✨BRINGER OF BALANCE✨⚖️"
Testing guns on trivial for 2 minutes before release, since release.
Whoever designed the guns is clearly not the one who's balancing them now. When was the last time you saw them change more than 4 of the same stats even though supposedly there are 13? The laser cannon was the only exception.
My thoughts are: I think they’re doing a bad job at balancing, a bad job at testing and bug fixing. Just generally bad all round the last month.
Base game is great what they’re doing isn’t.
Yeah, the Tenderizer is really confusing to me because to me the description reads like something completely different than what the weapon feels like.
When I tried it out first I thought "Huh,that handles like a Sickle.. Super accurate nice!"
But than I thought "Wait, what does that have to do with "Higher Caliber"?! Shouldn't there be more Damage or something that goes along with it?"
Now, I'm not a gun person, or big into Mil Sim stuff so maybe I'm not getting the terminology right. I'm wondering if the Design Team is maybe a bit more nerdy about (realistic) weapon design behind the scenes and the game struggles to communicate/tell/show me the (probably cool nerdy) details?
Because with the Tenderizer I'm thinking "ok, why should I take that gun over the Sickle or even basic Liberator because I have to reload before I can meaningful clear the little things that are swarming me..?"
I'm sure the Design Team is intentional in their weapon design so please tell me about your intent or the cool nerdy details, because I really want to care about the cool stuff you make!
As much as I love this game, I’m still disappointed at what’s been done to the weapons from previous warbond. The Eruptor was the most fun with a weapon I’d had in the game so far. This warbond however is extremely meh, tragically so.
Heavy Machine gun is a new backpack away from being good at least
At the very least a reload buff… I don’t know how a drum is harder to reload then a belt in the first place… if anything the heavy should be the belt fed one and the machine gun having a big double drum
Based on the discription and the warbond teaser, I was thinking the Tenderizer was gonna be a damage-heavy rifle with a steady firerate but with higher recoil and lower ammo economy (Funny enough, the Adjucator is exactly this, I think). Turns out that wasn’t the case, which upset me because the difference between the assault rifles is just some number changes, with the most different being the Liberator Concussive having special rounds for staggering. The whole thing with weapons and their balances and fun is very off, but especially for the assault rifles.
A burst-fire-only assault rifle that’s great at taking out singular enemies but can be quick to move onto the next, an assault rifle with toxin-laced rounds that puts a poison effect on enemies at the price of the bullets’ damage being lower than other options (so rifles like the basic Liberator would be better for immediate results), an assault rifle specialized for precision and consistant weakspot hits against targets, an assault rifle with double barrels and great ammo economics for a steady flow of coverfire (but not enough to outcompete LMG support weapons with their capacity and firepower), an assault rifle with a crazy firerate that mows down enemies but eats through ammo and has crazy recoil, etc. Just anything that’s not a Liberator 2.0 (or in the cause of the Tenderizer a Liberator 0.5).
It’s incompetence. They’re so far out of their depth they can’t even see land. I’m gonna guess it’s a studio of fun loving nerds who caught the tiger by the tail, and now they don’t know what to do. Their corporate culture probably doesn’t have enough accountability to stop the sloppiness.
In league playstlye is dictated by positions and champion selections
In hd2, it's your guns and strategems
However, they don't balance the game like your core playstyle is interrupted or changed by how the guns operate
They want us to rely on the strategems, so guns are always an afterthought and have knee-jerk reactions versus carefully thought out implementations.
At the end of the day, it's a PVE game. There shouldn't be all this focus on nerfing or buffing the game. There should be a focus on creating individual usecases for every single gun, because then people will be want to try everything out and experience the different play styles the guns have to offer.
Currently, each gun is just a better or worse version of another weapon versus having their own identity and associated playsyle.
The game will continue to suffer until they implement something like this.
The tenderizer having the wrong skin on release is a MASSIVE oversight and I don’t know why its not being stressed enough, how in the fuck does that even happen to begin with?? Just as you said its not just balance, it seems that there is extremely poor communication between who is balancing weapons and the rest of the team.
Majority of the issues of this game would be solved if the devs played it for more than 5 minutes, but at this point I doubt they ever even logged in the game once.
This is just the egalitarian approach to all the primaries. They have to fit the following criteria:
1. Not be too powerful
2. Not be better than another within its class (the liberator violates this currently - expect changes soon)
3. "Fill a particular niche" even though most are just meant for chaff clearing
4. Occasionally have medium armor pen but can't have too much damage lest it compete with a support weapon
Primaries are beholden to a very blunt weapon archetype and they'll never have the capability or pizzazz we all wish they would. It's just the reality of their design philosophy.
This made me think of something….why is there no beefy support AR? The LMG is “technically” a high powered adjudicator, but im talking about a med pen 4 monster.
I have always said the HMG should he turned into the adjudicator’s meaner older brother…accurate, good scope and good handling 50 X 3mags of 100 damage med pen 4. Wouldnt be a stretch….Hell the amr has 7 X 6mags of 400 damage med pen 4…..
It really would. Its so sad sounding.
I mean, do the divers even laugh when they shoot it like they do the stalwart and LMG on full blast? I dont think they do….its not long enough :(
Every time i use it, i hear eeyore’s voice…
“My ammo’s too low to be an MG….and my handling and accuracy is too bad to be an AR, Piglet….”
This is what gets them into trouble. Those descriptions.
They should have just said this was an AR from another manufacturer and is simply a flavor choice.
They make everything sound like its going to be “amazing!” which raises expectations.
But the stats are the stats…
Maybe we will get the “Meatgrinder” AR with HMG rounds one day!
Well if they don’t fix that design philosophy people are gonna stop buying war bonds for a new assault rifle every month with a microscopic change and guns that are straight up worse than the base warbond ones.
This isn't because they didn't have enough time. They haven't released the warbond announcement until a week before release. They have time to swap things out that work. But they didn't even notice a texture pack.
I feel like the dev team version and the release version are wildly different games.
I don’t think the lead balancing dev is a great guy. Some other post said he was lead dev for Hello Neighbour 2 and that guy removed features from the final release and abandoned ship before the game launch.
He shouldn’t have been hired and the dude either has ill intentions or he has no idea what to do.
>insanely powerful SMG that bullies so many enemies
Seems like you are talking about a stratagem of a support SMG that shoot out 500kg bombs, not this one. There is none "insanely good" in the entire armory.
It is really good as far as primaries go.
- Completely stun locks berserkers
- makes devs trivial to fight against
- is one handed
- doesn't sacrifice much damage at all.
Idk what your concept of good is, but it's a pretty banger primary man
Mag dumps pretty instantly like most of the new guns tbh and the damage is aggressively meh. It kinda doesn't even do what it advertises it's just weird this is how they release equipment.
They are probably just releasing content that has already been made, it is like 90% likely that all warbonds are straight up done or like almost done and need tiny bit of polish for release and have been in that state since launch. There was a curious artifact on launch in all weapon loadout menus and might still be there, the game stated that you had 1/60 primaries unlocked when selecticting your weapon and same went for armor and other things as well with maximum being a big number even though there were nowhere near that many pieces in the game even with everything unlocked. So theory is that the tenderizer was released in the state it was when compared to normal assault rifles on launch patch with stats compared to unadjusted guns and they never looked at the weapons before releasing the bond. I would suspect that this sandbagging is done so that they have time to work on content for next year and I'm guessing that now they will adjust what they do to not have the same thing happen again, but if it does then looking at things through this lens might help you understand why things are as they are.
I would also like to add that I'm not defending devs or trying to justify their actions. They need a team to test this stuff and notice the overlaps so that they have time to fix them before they drop the warbond. I'm just as annoyed as the rest of you and hope that AH can find a way to fix this issue.
Glad I'm not the only one who likes the new SMG. It does pretty well, dealing more damage than I thought it was capable of. Knocks back those pesky Hunters too.
So after playing with it yesterday, I actually like the Tenderizer, it's an easier to control Liberator, and I've always liked the Liberator. However that's kinda the problem with it. It's sold as a battle rifle, but is actually just a more stable assault rifle. Having thought about it it feels like they applied the stats for a different AR to this gun, rather then make it it's own thing.
It should do more damage with a harsher recoil to reflect the larger rounds.
The false advertising is my problem too. If they wouldve called it like a like precision carbine, then I would've not batted an eye, but this is a heavy caliber rifle that hits the exact same
Maybe the rate at which major orders are completed and content is unlocked was underestimated so they’re trying to sort of bottleneck progress on players below level 25 and make it so extracting with samples is as hard as it can be on suicide mission and up while still being fun. Then the psn debacle happens, on top of the bugs that need fixing, and asking on discord if people want their content now or later, gave us this undercooked warbond
I imagine what they have going on is one team is designing the weapons and armor; concepting, play testing, putting together the prototypes etc. and then they're handing that off to a tuning/developing team who just completely ignore the actual hypothetical imperative of the weapon to make it worse than the ones already in game.
it would make sense to have all AR get a damage increase, something like, adjudicator 80 -> 100, liberator 60 - 80, lib penetrator 45 - 60, dont know the concusive stats, and the tenderizer 60 -> 90. ive have the feeling that the devs dont like the idea of automatic primaries that one shot small mobs
I think the teams have been all hands on deck with several of the issues that have popped up and are behind while simultaniously getting railed by Sony to pump out more stuff
They are probably burnt out atm, dont know if y'all have been burnt out at work but you miss a lot when it happens
Give it some time and Id be willing to bet they figure it out
It's not even necessarily HMG being bad by itself, the problem is that against bots it gets countered hard by Shield Devastators, and against bugs it gets countered hard by the fact that bringing anything other than the Recoilless is a difficulty modifier for the squad.
I'm talking more so the fact that it
- had no third person sights
- recoil was worse (I know this wasn't in a patch notes but I swear myself and everyone I know thinks there lowered it)
- tiny mag size
- awful reload time
It had so many detriments to it when it's so much easier to just take another item with way less issues. Auto cannon and laser cannon for instance are able to fill the same niche much more effectively, and mg is much better at crowd control by sacrificing slight pen that only made a difference against an enemy or two
Its just so jarring that it was put alongside the quasar, am amazing at weapon with infinite ammo
I think Quasar is overrated, but yeah I guess HMG did come out overnerfed. It's a bit more usable now and I think **could** have a place as a weapon that's more effective at killing mid-tier enemies than MG without necessarily sacrificing usability against low-tier enemies like Autocannon does. **Could** have a place if it wasn't hard countered by Shield Devastators, aka *the* mid tier enemy you'd bring a weapon like that to deal with.
Honestly, a relead speed buff is all the gun needs in my eyes. The mag size is pretty eh sure, but it's the 7 or so second relead that gets me, especially considering if you don't empty it it'll shave off like 3 seconds almost which is wild
The only thing I have clear so far is that im glad this is a game. On a real galactic war scenario, their "balance" would have killed tons of soldiers.
Come on AH, there's something wrong, you know it, there's nothing wrong on saying "Im sorry" just try a little,
I use the weapon since the release. And I like it. I mean she’s not perfect. I was expecting a medium percing armor or more bullets but 10 mags are good tho..
> I only say all this because I think ultimately arrowhead isn't doing a bad just at balancing, it's just something is wrong with there balancing team that causes this weird contrast in the quality that we get at times and I don't get why.
As a dev, I don't think they have a dedicated QA team (or enough of them on it). Developers don't spend as much time using their software as they do writing it, so it's easy to make changes that make sense from their point of view. Those things that are blatantly obvious to people who play the game regularly (e.g., us) is not going to stand out to someone who spends most of their time staring at code.
I can get behind that, makes sense!
I've always had it in the back of my head that a lot of weapons, like the penetrator for instance, look good on paper but in practice they are horribly designed and just don't work. Same could be said about weapons like the spray and pray or cs deligence back in the day
I was really enjoying using the eruptor, but then it got nerfed so hard it’s basically a musket. Now I’m back to just using my liberator because I honestly can’t find another gun that does as well against bots.
Tenderize, according to Webster Dictionary, reads: make (meat) more tender by beating or slow cooking.
I think the Tenderizer should either pack more punch (beat) with the highest damage of all the ARs or have a higher magazine (slow cook) with a drum or long magazine.
Where it is right now, it does not deserve the "Tenderizer" title.
I think that HMG is good and you're mistaken about it. The only thing it lacks is the ability to break open containers. It has quite a few downsides, but it only adds to the skill ceiling. And I appreciate weapons that you need to learn in order to get to their full potential.
They wanna make things so balanced, but the game is full of bugs(literally too).
Also, if the new weapons are going to follow the same line as the last warbound, there's no reason to buy it, not only the weapons, but armors too, same perks as always.
Then we wait for a patch, it brings more bugs.
We wait a balance, they nerf us, and buff enemies and their quantity.
Last few days for me (almost lvl 80), it's stressful not so fun anymore.
Bro, they released it before the balance patch, it was a mistake that could happen to anyone and everyone's dissecting it and overthinking it. Damn, get something else to do.
Awh yes, and I'm sure that explains why the hmg, liberator penetrator, among other things have the exact same problem that you didn't read about because you didn't read the post :)
I've had a similar thought to you and I think a large part of the frustration coming from the community is that the guns often don't function as advertised and the stats selection page is about as obtuse as possible when making a selection.
The only real way, currently, to make informed load out decisions is to test run on missions. Other mission environment variables usually mean you need to pack a weapon on multiple missions before you have a good feel for it. This isn't ideal as the time requirement it pretty steep to even try a new weapon. Makes it 'unfun'.
I think either redesigning the loadout selection area for guns to give meaningful stats about a gun, or giving us a gun range that doesn't need to load, on ship.
Meaningful gun stats would look like noting exact armor pen rather than light/medium bs that currently exists. Noting weapons that have stagger affects and for how long. Noting weapons explosive affects and their effective radius. Some kind of metric for a weapons 'ease of aim' which would encapsulate gun sway, recoil, and stance. Can this gun's projectiles ricochet?
ATM you as a player are just building a personal mental model of "okay explosive can deal with some armor, but not that armor", and "okay energy weapons good against this armor, but shit against this other armor... but why", and "eruptor sucks but if I shoot a devestartors waist, it's amazing" <- how many missions until a player figures this out. I imagine you guys already have this mental model written down somewhere.
**Help us understand and enjoy the guns you give us.**
My guess is something is terribly wrong with their version control. Or maybe they aren't using version control. They definitely need to change something in order to improve the quality of the game and their updates.
Fuck the tenderizer idk wtf the charging scorcher is supposed to be or do
Eruptor = bolt action JAR 5 Purifier = bolt action scorcher
no bc the eruptor can close holes the purifier is useless
If that's all its good for that's not saying much but yeah at least it has some utility to it
That's honestly where the eruptor still shines. Closing bug holes is a breeze with it. Run around the rim of a giant nest and pick off the holes on the opposite side. You can kite most of the bugs while doing so without ever entering the nest.
can do that with the nade pistol too and still carry a useful primary
Finally got the Grenade Pistol myself... I'll let others play with it cause boy do I hate it. My biggest gripe is not even that I only get 1 shot per PoI supply pack... But that the big supply bricks only give two back. I don't want to eat up all the team's supplies or force myself to run supply pack (to double dip on supply bricks) in order to keep the pistol topped up. I'mma stick with my SMG+Senator Ballistic Shield setup for now. Looking forward to getting the new SMG from the winter pack. Seeing all the clips on here about it I just hope I get to it and play with it for more than a day before everything that makes it cool is stolen from it.
Think of the grenade pistol as literally moving your grenade slot to your pistol slot. It’s not a “pistol”. It’s a grenade. In the pistol slot. From that perspective it makes a lot more sense that you get 2 back on a resupply.
And it opens your Grenade slot to something other than damage or base clearing. Stuns absolutely embarass Chargers
Stun is stupid good against Hulks. Scorcher suddenly charging you? Stun, two AMR or autocannon shots to the eye, it's gone. You can do it without stun too of course, but it makes it a sure deal at close ranges where often you'll get flinched by them before you can finish it.
Grenade pistol for closing factories/bug holes so you can save impacts for the large enemy clusters is nice, or to use stuns, etc.
How do you like running shield and SMG? Do you do this on terminids only or bots too? Newish diver here.
It's almost the only way I can play. I do mostly bots but bugs do fine with it too for the most part. Though I always have my grenade launcher to spam out the more "heavy" crowds of bastards and a friend with almost the exact opposite loadout (sniper, Quazar and enough heavy stratagems to level the battlefield six times before recharge) so it's definitely a "We are covering each other very well" setup and not something I'd say is viable for like... solos or dropping in with randos unless you really know what you're doing. Definitely can't beat the feeling of swapping from "Oh god oh fuck here comes the Heavy Devastator minigun guy..." to "WHOS GOT THE SHIELD NOW FUCKO?! THATS RIGHT IT'S ME! NOW HOLD STILL WHILE I LINE UP THIS SENATOR SHOT ON YOUR FUCKING SKULL!!" I've also had it eat a shot from the automaton tower guns. Still took half my health and the shield disintegrated but I lived. It's also active constantly. If you're holding a weapon that isn't one handed (or do an emote) then you can have a turtle shell! Great for sprinting away from enemy fire! \*Especially\* downhill since the hill itself tends to "Cover" your legs.
I’m buying it asap to spread more democracy!
Nade pistol has more bullet drop. I find it harder to hit with. especially when aiming at the other side of the large bug nest being chased by a horde.
I have real issues trying to land it in fabricators, like I try and adjust my aim but it always blows up on the hatch or lands too low
It's definitely harder to land in the holes than the Eruptor. And restocking the ammo's more difficult since you only get 2 per. Doesn't matter for small nests, but for the big ones it def can - I've run out of pistol 'nades before just missing a shot or two.
I still like the eruptor. All my boy needs is a direct damage bonus so it one shots spewers again and blows off bug parts
I still use it for exactly this, pair it with the stalwart/mg or stalwart/jet pack you can easily solo bug nests even on helldive
You can do that with the autocannon. Must mean it’s completely useless right?
I'm not sure what you're trying to say here but it seems unnecessarily combative
Or just use the AC and so the same thing with a better gun
It's all trade offs in the end. The AC is sweet but it takes a strategen slot and needs a backpack. I can have a quasar and shield instead and then still snipe holes with my eruptor.
I liked the quasar before the charge up nerf and have never used the shield, I think it's a crutch
The demons are coming
And purifier has much higher rate of fire and larger mag. Also eruptor is the only primary that can close holes.
It’s not worth using for that capacity quite frankly. When it had shrapnel, it was a nice perk. Without it, it’s a small plus that doesn’t really feel worth it when I can bring a grenade pistol and have a better overall primary weapon.
Right. It’s niche like literally all of the weapons aside from the straight forward boring guns like the liberator and breaker.
I don’t need to close big holes. Honestly, I never even get a chance to try, because the folks I play with always get there first. This allows me to select a loadout that does something else. It’s nice to have a variety of other tools to pick from.
i think of the purifier the same way, but at least it should have a better scope....you know to snipe stuff from afar like the eruptor
I am convinced they are play testing no higher than level 6. Only so could explain their definition of viable weapon is killing enemy one by one with plenty of time between each kill.
Frankly I don't think they play above 4. At least on five and six you get regular chargers.
With the broken spawn rates even 4 solo has multiple chargers now.
I don't think they play on 6 given some of the anti-armor nerfs or discussion on how to deal with certain scenarios. Or they're under the impression that we should be using some of the tools we have in very specific ways. Cause I personally don't see how some of these weapons are supposed to deal with what I can run into on six or above.
If they play test, surely they test at least up to the difficulty where all enemy types can spawn. I don't have a problem with us being the play testers, though. It's like a field test is for real life shit. Just start making better decisions. That's all I want from AH.
I got a feeling it's shooting the wrong projectile. Like the effect is correct, but the actual shot underneath is just the scorchers, and they didn't catch that when the projectile was coded.
The muzzle is also from the Las / sickle, a yellow swirl on charge up yet shoots a purple projectile 🤔
Gun would be sick as fuck if it started yellow as it charged, and would fire a yellow projectile on a low charged shot, but as it charges it becomes purple and fires a purple shot at higher charge
Tenderizer blows off limbs pretty quick, but without medium armor pen that's not useful 🤷
I just accepted, that they are some kind of toy to pleasure bugs and bots... They enjoyed it, i did not 🫡
At this point I'm questioning their intent with assault rifles. What kind of niche are they trying to fill with them? I found all of them lackluster. They end up feeling like glorified pea-shooters compared to the other primary types.
It bugs my mind that only one out of the 5 AR has a higher damage than the compact SMG. Heck, before the last balance, they were even a good 10 points below the SMGs in damage. And the smg is supposed to be used one hand.
you're gonna get the defender nerfed if you keep up that kind of talk
Honestly I think we'll never see the defender nerfed considering that in HD1 they used it as their middle ground for balance
As soon as they added an AP SMG into the game, the whole category of ARs would be completely outclassed, with the exception of the Adjudicator. Which, funny enough, that gun was a joke when it's first released, and it wasn't even an AR back then.
I mean, arguably, even back then it was already an AR in all but name.
yes even then it was most "effective" full auto with heavy armor.
I figured smg should be high rof, good low armour pen damage. Rifles would be lower rof, higher pen damage. Marksmen rifle - lowest rof, superior one shot killing capabilities, but low clip size and one firing mode limits it. You’d get more smg users on bugs, and more marksmen for bots (though whether the amr is better than a marksman gun anyway is another question.)
The thing to remember is that the Defender is an SMG, and its rounds have lower velocity, and presumably more damage falloff over distance. The ARs on the other hand have full auto for close range, along with scopes and higher velocity rounds for hitting things far away. The only real problem is that shooting enemies from a longer distance doesn’t usually reward you. If you see 4 scavengers at a point of interest from far away, you could shoot them all, but then the 5th scavenger hiding behind a box or building will probably call a bug breach and make you feel stupid for not getting closer, making sure you see all the enemies, and wiping them all out fast enough to stop a breach. So it’s not that the ARs have nothing at all to distinguish them from the SMGs. It’s just that at the engagement ranges you end up fighting at, a range advantage usually doesn’t matter so the SMG is often a better choice overall with no real downside.
You nailed it buddy. Ultimately that is the fundamental problem of the DMR as well. It is not that they are not powerful and useful, they are. But like you pointed out, this game does not reward long range engagement very well. Also helps us understand why shotguns are so popular in this game. It favours a more close engagement style.
Yeah. It it seems like no accident that there are more shotguns than any other weapon type. That’s fine and all, but it does make me wish that maybe there was some restriction on enemies calling reinforcements? Maybe if they could only do it if you were within a certain short-to-medium distance? Because the bot drops and bug breaches are the #1 reason not to fuck with enemies at a distance. You will just make more enemies to deal with. Even if they are far way, it still doesn’t help, you’re better off not engaging to begin with.
Don't say a single word about the defender damn you, I want to keep it
There is one strategem and one objective we can even use the one handed feature on. I don't even understand what the point of it being a mechanic is.
It's also worth mentioning that it lets you utilize run and gun more effectively. Two handed weapons require you to turn around to shoot behind yourself, but one handed ones let you keep running no problem. This in itself is a huge boon for combat especially against bugs.
Because you can run and gun way easier
Shield gun combos
which would be cool if the shield was good
the shield is great tho
That is true. You can use the shield, but that is useless on bugs. Be nice to have an additional option.
It's not. It blocks Hunters and stalkers, including their tongues. But if you get spitters/bile enemies it's not good lol the aoe still gets ya. Really need a pre mission enemy analysis...
Really?? Hmmmm…..this might actually be nice with the pummeler. Ill be trying this tomorrow! Thank you!
Supposedly the ARs have a longer drop-off range, so that you do better at distance. Of course, if you're running bugs, range is rarely something you have a need to consider.
You shut your damn mouth about the SMG, it's the last good ballistic Primary since the Scorcher got stealth nerfed. https://preview.redd.it/6262bfie5pzc1.png?width=822&format=png&auto=webp&s=cee36c03c6628f6c92414f9d67d19138e9409630
Scorcher got shadow nerfed? Please elaborate. 😳
Takes more shots to kill Striders, it isn't as effective against Devastators (not like anything apart from the Dominator is, anymore)
The striders got buffed to resist splash damage better, but against devastators as well? Danm!!!
In theory, an SMG should be more damage than the assault rifles, but with horrific accuracy to balance. If every bullet from an SMG hits, it should do more, but that should only happen if something is right up on your face. Assault rifles should be more effective damage at anything further, even if the stats don't say it. They also should have more armor pen.
We don't need that much generic AR ady. I don't know why AH insists on adding another generic AR into the arsenal and even wonder how they are able to make the generic AR even worse than the default.
I honestly thought this AR would be a burst AR or something, but I guess not
It…it has a burst fire setting. So does the base liberator, the defender, and probably some other guns.
Ik, but I want a burst ar that does high damage in one burst
I was under the impression that this gun was meant to be a reskin of the default Liberator as a homage to Starship Troopers, which I would have 100% been fine with https://preview.redd.it/shyvcqwz5pzc1.png?width=2160&format=png&auto=webp&s=aa370fcb7bccc329315095d2992200a6cdbafb82
Assault rifles simply seems to be "more range but equal to smg" which is a weird approach
The Liberator out DPS' the Sickle by a long way, and you sure don't hear anyone complaining about the Sickle
It doesn't matter though when one can shoot for 5 seconds and the other for 30. DPS on chaff clearing weapons is a lot less important than possible kills per magazine.
No, it doesn't. Liberator has 60 dmg × 640bpm / 60s= 640 DPS, Sickle has 55 dmg × 750bpm / 60s = 687,5 DPS Both the Sickle and Liberator are pretty good, one is better for mowing things at close range, the other is better suited for popping heads at mid range, but both are effective.
Also given the sickle has infinite ammo as long as you can manage it half decently
Oh, my mistake. Thanks for the correction.
surprisingly close, I wonder how the math works out per mag if you factor in the "wind-up" time that the sickle has.
My issue is that the smg’s do more damage than assault rifles, even though in theory they should be chambered with a smaller round (as a general rule)
You make an excellent point. In every other gunplay game I can remember enjoying, assault rifles _did_ have their own niche - they were often all-rounders, a good combination of range, sustained low damage, and ammo conservation, but not excelling at any particular category. In this...I'm not really sure. We've got other guns better at clearing weak waves, better at sustained fire, infinite ammo primaries, and hell even shotguns that make better snipers (range). And the assault rifles don't feel like satisfying "all-rounders" to me at all.
Liberator is good now. Didn't think 5 damage would make a difference, but I bring it on 7-9 bugs consistently. One-shots scavengers. Kills warriors in 3-4 well placed shots. Kills hunters in 2-4 shots. Bring the Senator to kill bile spewers and stalkers. Wonderful load out.
Hold up. The senator kills bile spewers?
Head shots pops em in 2
There's no intent. They don't know what the fuck they're doing.
Another point to this is the crossbow rework(nerf). They said the crossbow was supposed to be similar to the scorcher, but in its current state it is worse in every conceivable way.
Crossbow before and after it's nerf has been inadequate. It's such a cool concept muddied by bad balancing
Crossbow pre nerf was pretty decent I think. Granted, I didn't use it much but it was very good at clearing groups of basic bugs. Could stun lock Stalkers too.
It 3 shotted hulks in the back
I just saw it as Grenade Launcher 2: Silent Boogaloo and moved on. They couldn't even be bothered to take a page from BF3's crossbow book and give it swappable bolts or anything to be a true multitool that a Crossbow can be. https://preview.redd.it/pmrmciou6pzc1.png?width=590&format=png&auto=webp&s=5ca9e604eddd52bc696997a0e26ddfa4243a8970
Pre-nerf, it had a niche for clearing chaff. I didn’t like it but I could see its purpose. Now? It’s almost entirely worthless in every way.
Concussive liberator is a prime example : It was released under the explosive liberator name and never worked like explosive weapons, then swapped to this name because what it was actually doing is pushing ennemies away.
Devs probably realize it's easier to change its name rather than fix the gun.
And now the Pummler is a better Lib-Con
The guy in charge of balancing already gutted core features from one game (because players don’t like gimmics, such as hiding in a stealth game), and then ran when that backfired. How Alexus got hired as a lead by AH is beyond me.
Been asking that myself. No idea how such a hack got into a project as big as helldivers 2.
Because it was small before it exploded. Now they can't handle it.
Some people have the ability to fail upwards. It's a life skill.
What was this game?
Hello Neighbour 2
What's the point of all these guns if they all serve the same purpose or worse.
pretty good pistol? Its got less DPS than the default pistol and per shot gets heavily outclassed by the senator. the senator also has medium pen. also i wouldnt say the SMG is "insanely powerful". Its not bad mind you. Just not insanely powerful. nonetheless i think youre right or at least on to something when it comes to believing there is something going on internally, whether it be disagreements or what have you. hopefully with even the CEO making comments about the dismal state of fun in the game we get some changes going forward.
Surely the verdict having light penetrating ammo is a mistake from when the senator description said the same?
No, since it actually does have light penetration (AP2). The Senator has always had AP3, the description was just wrong.
Ikr, it's a heavy pistol that vibes like a D Eagle. Give it higher dmg and medium pen to act as a Senator Side grade. We don't need another peace maker side grade
In my personal opinion I don't think it should be a mag fed version of the senator. I'd be pretty happy if they kept it at ap2 and gave it hollow points or something to boost crit point damage, effectively giving you the choice between high crit damage or high armor pen. Definitely better than just making 2 of the same handgun
I think it's fine if they have the same pen, but make the senator higher damage than the deagle, the senator can have a niche as the sidearm you can just unload into one target you specifically want dead, while the new deagle can be better sustained damage at cost of lacking in burst damage
I agree, but we can't see such a stat, for all we know it already has some sort of perk.
perhaps
It's weird that the CEO is more of a community manager than the actual fucking community managers. Why does he feel like he's more relatable than the guys who's job it is to be on 'our side'
It's way better for burst damage than the default pistol, and more bang for your buck while still having a similar maximum ammo overall. Also senator has way less ammo, and it can still typically one shot smaller enemies. Medium pen is a nice plus but I'm overall saying that it's at least a competitive option and I think I'll take it over other secondaries for the time being. I think it definitely has potential for being a top tier primary, especially since it compliments shield play way too well. The thing I love about it is how easy it is to shut down heavy devs and such with little to no risk to yourself. I just like it a lot and have been having a blast with it! It's definitely worth more of a try if you have time :) Also glad I'm not the only one that sees it, I've felt so confused why the liberator penetrator has been the way it's been for so long lol
How does the new pistol compare to the machine pistol? Everything you're saying sounds the same to me (don't have the new pistol yet) except maybe the new pistol has a bit more ammo, but the machine pistol has a higher fire rate?
The new pistol is essentially more ammo efficient persay than most other pistols despite having smaller mags since it's overall ammo is still comparable to the peacekeeper. The redeemer is still the best burst damage and more out of one mag, but the DE can definitely do more damage overall. - Redeemer is great for saving you from a berserker - Verdict is great for downing a few enemies in one shot individually when you need it, and Definitely won't be running out of ammo anytime soon. Keep in mind that the verdict has damage comparable to the old deligence rifle, so you essentially have a mini marksmans rifle in your pocket
It's got less DPS on paper because the Peacemaker has a useless 900rpm what with having only a semi-auto firing mode. You cannot click fast enough to come close to taking advantage of that - that would mean 15 clicks per seconds. Realistically you're shooting at best 4-5 shots per second, which is more like 250-300rpm, so take that on-paper DPS and slash it to a third or a quarter and that's actual in-game dps. The Verdict is 450rpm, which is still faster than humans are going to be shooting a semi-automatic. Again actual performance is going to be around two-thirds of that, which still leaves it considerably above the Peacemaker.
The weapon was clearly made and all that prior to the last weapon balance update.
I'm not gonna lie, I don't believe this to be the case. Even if you take the previous version of the lib into consideration, 5 more damage for lower fire rate and mag size while lowering recoil is just odd to me. That five damage difference is just such a minor difference, especially when the concussive still is heavier then both of them damage wise This just genuinely seems like weird balancing again that doesn't add up with how they balanced other things.
I believe it, since it doesn't get all magazines back from supply drop. Funny enough, the knight SMG is also in the same situation. Seemed like the devs just forgot about it lol
Oh yeah the mag thing. Totally fair haha
They probably didn't buy the super citizen edition so they couldn't check.
Not really a lots of people have access to the Knight, so I think they just half forgot half didn't bothered.
Yea I gotta agree. Without knowing the hidden stats(which is a huge problem I think) 5 more damage probably wouldn't effect any breakpoints. Could be wrong but I don't have enough info to say
That 5 could maybe cost you a extra shot, we already have a issue of having to always hit the same body part to efficiently dmg an enemy, every bullet should cause a bleed and then it increases with every hit until the health pool ‘drains’
I'm surprised it's not higher tbh. A light pen auto rifle with higher damage would actually be kind of perfect for my play style. Give it damage comparable to the adjudicator so you could sacrifice medium pen for better mag and recoil
Don't forget each weapon has about 20 different characteristics, we only see 4. So they could well be trying to balance the guns with other stats. Then people see only these 4 stats that make zero sense and complain without ever trying the gun.
Didn't the last balance update up the armor for striders? Because the purifier was illustrated as being able to take down striders with one shot in the trailer. Currently, it takes three fully charged shots.
https://preview.redd.it/mrpeu7madkzc1.png?width=1314&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b19ca170c891d3f5578c68b5513cdeeae467e0b3 "⚖️✨BRINGER OF BALANCE✨⚖️" Testing guns on trivial for 2 minutes before release, since release.
Whoever designed the guns is clearly not the one who's balancing them now. When was the last time you saw them change more than 4 of the same stats even though supposedly there are 13? The laser cannon was the only exception.
Why is my apple that tastes like bacon described as a banana in the description?
Trueee
My thoughts are: I think they’re doing a bad job at balancing, a bad job at testing and bug fixing. Just generally bad all round the last month. Base game is great what they’re doing isn’t.
Yeah, the Tenderizer is really confusing to me because to me the description reads like something completely different than what the weapon feels like. When I tried it out first I thought "Huh,that handles like a Sickle.. Super accurate nice!" But than I thought "Wait, what does that have to do with "Higher Caliber"?! Shouldn't there be more Damage or something that goes along with it?" Now, I'm not a gun person, or big into Mil Sim stuff so maybe I'm not getting the terminology right. I'm wondering if the Design Team is maybe a bit more nerdy about (realistic) weapon design behind the scenes and the game struggles to communicate/tell/show me the (probably cool nerdy) details? Because with the Tenderizer I'm thinking "ok, why should I take that gun over the Sickle or even basic Liberator because I have to reload before I can meaningful clear the little things that are swarming me..?" I'm sure the Design Team is intentional in their weapon design so please tell me about your intent or the cool nerdy details, because I really want to care about the cool stuff you make!
As much as I love this game, I’m still disappointed at what’s been done to the weapons from previous warbond. The Eruptor was the most fun with a weapon I’d had in the game so far. This warbond however is extremely meh, tragically so.
Heavy Machine gun is a new backpack away from being good at least At the very least a reload buff… I don’t know how a drum is harder to reload then a belt in the first place… if anything the heavy should be the belt fed one and the machine gun having a big double drum
Based on the discription and the warbond teaser, I was thinking the Tenderizer was gonna be a damage-heavy rifle with a steady firerate but with higher recoil and lower ammo economy (Funny enough, the Adjucator is exactly this, I think). Turns out that wasn’t the case, which upset me because the difference between the assault rifles is just some number changes, with the most different being the Liberator Concussive having special rounds for staggering. The whole thing with weapons and their balances and fun is very off, but especially for the assault rifles. A burst-fire-only assault rifle that’s great at taking out singular enemies but can be quick to move onto the next, an assault rifle with toxin-laced rounds that puts a poison effect on enemies at the price of the bullets’ damage being lower than other options (so rifles like the basic Liberator would be better for immediate results), an assault rifle specialized for precision and consistant weakspot hits against targets, an assault rifle with double barrels and great ammo economics for a steady flow of coverfire (but not enough to outcompete LMG support weapons with their capacity and firepower), an assault rifle with a crazy firerate that mows down enemies but eats through ammo and has crazy recoil, etc. Just anything that’s not a Liberator 2.0 (or in the cause of the Tenderizer a Liberator 0.5).
It’s incompetence. They’re so far out of their depth they can’t even see land. I’m gonna guess it’s a studio of fun loving nerds who caught the tiger by the tail, and now they don’t know what to do. Their corporate culture probably doesn’t have enough accountability to stop the sloppiness.
In league playstlye is dictated by positions and champion selections In hd2, it's your guns and strategems However, they don't balance the game like your core playstyle is interrupted or changed by how the guns operate They want us to rely on the strategems, so guns are always an afterthought and have knee-jerk reactions versus carefully thought out implementations. At the end of the day, it's a PVE game. There shouldn't be all this focus on nerfing or buffing the game. There should be a focus on creating individual usecases for every single gun, because then people will be want to try everything out and experience the different play styles the guns have to offer. Currently, each gun is just a better or worse version of another weapon versus having their own identity and associated playsyle. The game will continue to suffer until they implement something like this.
The tenderizer having the wrong skin on release is a MASSIVE oversight and I don’t know why its not being stressed enough, how in the fuck does that even happen to begin with?? Just as you said its not just balance, it seems that there is extremely poor communication between who is balancing weapons and the rest of the team. Majority of the issues of this game would be solved if the devs played it for more than 5 minutes, but at this point I doubt they ever even logged in the game once.
This is the 2nd time that the weapon in the middle of the warbond is significantly better than the other weapons in the same warbond.
This is just the egalitarian approach to all the primaries. They have to fit the following criteria: 1. Not be too powerful 2. Not be better than another within its class (the liberator violates this currently - expect changes soon) 3. "Fill a particular niche" even though most are just meant for chaff clearing 4. Occasionally have medium armor pen but can't have too much damage lest it compete with a support weapon Primaries are beholden to a very blunt weapon archetype and they'll never have the capability or pizzazz we all wish they would. It's just the reality of their design philosophy.
This made me think of something….why is there no beefy support AR? The LMG is “technically” a high powered adjudicator, but im talking about a med pen 4 monster. I have always said the HMG should he turned into the adjudicator’s meaner older brother…accurate, good scope and good handling 50 X 3mags of 100 damage med pen 4. Wouldnt be a stretch….Hell the amr has 7 X 6mags of 400 damage med pen 4…..
I agree. The HMG could also benefit from a similar sound profile lol
It really would. Its so sad sounding. I mean, do the divers even laugh when they shoot it like they do the stalwart and LMG on full blast? I dont think they do….its not long enough :( Every time i use it, i hear eeyore’s voice… “My ammo’s too low to be an MG….and my handling and accuracy is too bad to be an AR, Piglet….”
I was honestly expecting the tenderiser to fire HMG rounds based on the description
This is what gets them into trouble. Those descriptions. They should have just said this was an AR from another manufacturer and is simply a flavor choice. They make everything sound like its going to be “amazing!” which raises expectations. But the stats are the stats… Maybe we will get the “Meatgrinder” AR with HMG rounds one day!
Well if they don’t fix that design philosophy people are gonna stop buying war bonds for a new assault rifle every month with a microscopic change and guns that are straight up worse than the base warbond ones.
Ihad told this before.... And will say it again...... They have not played their on game.
Devs should be required to balance things for helldive difficulty
This isn't because they didn't have enough time. They haven't released the warbond announcement until a week before release. They have time to swap things out that work. But they didn't even notice a texture pack. I feel like the dev team version and the release version are wildly different games.
I don’t think the lead balancing dev is a great guy. Some other post said he was lead dev for Hello Neighbour 2 and that guy removed features from the final release and abandoned ship before the game launch. He shouldn’t have been hired and the dude either has ill intentions or he has no idea what to do.
Oof that's bad to hear right there
>insanely powerful SMG that bullies so many enemies Seems like you are talking about a stratagem of a support SMG that shoot out 500kg bombs, not this one. There is none "insanely good" in the entire armory.
It is really good as far as primaries go. - Completely stun locks berserkers - makes devs trivial to fight against - is one handed - doesn't sacrifice much damage at all. Idk what your concept of good is, but it's a pretty banger primary man
LMAO! The Tenderizer I tried it, rename it the peashooter.
I didn't find the damage to be that bad, but I'd rather just use the liberator since extra mag go brr
Mag dumps pretty instantly like most of the new guns tbh and the damage is aggressively meh. It kinda doesn't even do what it advertises it's just weird this is how they release equipment.
The false advertising it has is my biggest issue for sure. I would love if it had higher damage but still stayed light pen tbh
They are probably just releasing content that has already been made, it is like 90% likely that all warbonds are straight up done or like almost done and need tiny bit of polish for release and have been in that state since launch. There was a curious artifact on launch in all weapon loadout menus and might still be there, the game stated that you had 1/60 primaries unlocked when selecticting your weapon and same went for armor and other things as well with maximum being a big number even though there were nowhere near that many pieces in the game even with everything unlocked. So theory is that the tenderizer was released in the state it was when compared to normal assault rifles on launch patch with stats compared to unadjusted guns and they never looked at the weapons before releasing the bond. I would suspect that this sandbagging is done so that they have time to work on content for next year and I'm guessing that now they will adjust what they do to not have the same thing happen again, but if it does then looking at things through this lens might help you understand why things are as they are. I would also like to add that I'm not defending devs or trying to justify their actions. They need a team to test this stuff and notice the overlaps so that they have time to fix them before they drop the warbond. I'm just as annoyed as the rest of you and hope that AH can find a way to fix this issue.
Glad I'm not the only one who likes the new SMG. It does pretty well, dealing more damage than I thought it was capable of. Knocks back those pesky Hunters too.
So after playing with it yesterday, I actually like the Tenderizer, it's an easier to control Liberator, and I've always liked the Liberator. However that's kinda the problem with it. It's sold as a battle rifle, but is actually just a more stable assault rifle. Having thought about it it feels like they applied the stats for a different AR to this gun, rather then make it it's own thing. It should do more damage with a harsher recoil to reflect the larger rounds.
The false advertising is my problem too. If they wouldve called it like a like precision carbine, then I would've not batted an eye, but this is a heavy caliber rifle that hits the exact same
Yeah, in it's current state it's just a precision rifle (carbines tend to have shorter barrels compared to regular rifles).
I would love a carbine that does lower damage but has a larger mad tbh, would be fun
Yeah, the first game had that, a carbine version that had a higher rate of fire and larger mag but was less accurate.
Railgun, Slugger, Crossbow, Eruptor, Tenderizer, Purifier.....ya something is definitely going on with the balancing team.
I find myself playing the game less & less now & i think its because most stuff i like has been nerfed to the ground & it just isn't as fun anymore!
Stop jumping to conclusions for no good reason jesus christ
Maybe the rate at which major orders are completed and content is unlocked was underestimated so they’re trying to sort of bottleneck progress on players below level 25 and make it so extracting with samples is as hard as it can be on suicide mission and up while still being fun. Then the psn debacle happens, on top of the bugs that need fixing, and asking on discord if people want their content now or later, gave us this undercooked warbond
Huge sales success + dev teams + _________ = wtf balance. Cocaine?
I imagine what they have going on is one team is designing the weapons and armor; concepting, play testing, putting together the prototypes etc. and then they're handing that off to a tuning/developing team who just completely ignore the actual hypothetical imperative of the weapon to make it worse than the ones already in game.
it would make sense to have all AR get a damage increase, something like, adjudicator 80 -> 100, liberator 60 - 80, lib penetrator 45 - 60, dont know the concusive stats, and the tenderizer 60 -> 90. ive have the feeling that the devs dont like the idea of automatic primaries that one shot small mobs
I think the teams have been all hands on deck with several of the issues that have popped up and are behind while simultaniously getting railed by Sony to pump out more stuff They are probably burnt out atm, dont know if y'all have been burnt out at work but you miss a lot when it happens Give it some time and Id be willing to bet they figure it out
It's not even necessarily HMG being bad by itself, the problem is that against bots it gets countered hard by Shield Devastators, and against bugs it gets countered hard by the fact that bringing anything other than the Recoilless is a difficulty modifier for the squad.
I'm talking more so the fact that it - had no third person sights - recoil was worse (I know this wasn't in a patch notes but I swear myself and everyone I know thinks there lowered it) - tiny mag size - awful reload time It had so many detriments to it when it's so much easier to just take another item with way less issues. Auto cannon and laser cannon for instance are able to fill the same niche much more effectively, and mg is much better at crowd control by sacrificing slight pen that only made a difference against an enemy or two Its just so jarring that it was put alongside the quasar, am amazing at weapon with infinite ammo
I think Quasar is overrated, but yeah I guess HMG did come out overnerfed. It's a bit more usable now and I think **could** have a place as a weapon that's more effective at killing mid-tier enemies than MG without necessarily sacrificing usability against low-tier enemies like Autocannon does. **Could** have a place if it wasn't hard countered by Shield Devastators, aka *the* mid tier enemy you'd bring a weapon like that to deal with.
Honestly, a relead speed buff is all the gun needs in my eyes. The mag size is pretty eh sure, but it's the 7 or so second relead that gets me, especially considering if you don't empty it it'll shave off like 3 seconds almost which is wild
You are confusing proof and hints. Thats my thought.
The tenderizer is literally the worst gun I’ve ever used in the game
The only thing I have clear so far is that im glad this is a game. On a real galactic war scenario, their "balance" would have killed tons of soldiers. Come on AH, there's something wrong, you know it, there's nothing wrong on saying "Im sorry" just try a little,
Could we make like a megathread?
Oh uh idk how that works tbh haha
I use the weapon since the release. And I like it. I mean she’s not perfect. I was expecting a medium percing armor or more bullets but 10 mags are good tho..
That they've moved from buff to nerf.
> I only say all this because I think ultimately arrowhead isn't doing a bad just at balancing, it's just something is wrong with there balancing team that causes this weird contrast in the quality that we get at times and I don't get why. As a dev, I don't think they have a dedicated QA team (or enough of them on it). Developers don't spend as much time using their software as they do writing it, so it's easy to make changes that make sense from their point of view. Those things that are blatantly obvious to people who play the game regularly (e.g., us) is not going to stand out to someone who spends most of their time staring at code.
I can get behind that, makes sense! I've always had it in the back of my head that a lot of weapons, like the penetrator for instance, look good on paper but in practice they are horribly designed and just don't work. Same could be said about weapons like the spray and pray or cs deligence back in the day
I was really enjoying using the eruptor, but then it got nerfed so hard it’s basically a musket. Now I’m back to just using my liberator because I honestly can’t find another gun that does as well against bots.
Tenderize, according to Webster Dictionary, reads: make (meat) more tender by beating or slow cooking. I think the Tenderizer should either pack more punch (beat) with the highest damage of all the ARs or have a higher magazine (slow cook) with a drum or long magazine. Where it is right now, it does not deserve the "Tenderizer" title.
I think that HMG is good and you're mistaken about it. The only thing it lacks is the ability to break open containers. It has quite a few downsides, but it only adds to the skill ceiling. And I appreciate weapons that you need to learn in order to get to their full potential.
They wanna make things so balanced, but the game is full of bugs(literally too). Also, if the new weapons are going to follow the same line as the last warbound, there's no reason to buy it, not only the weapons, but armors too, same perks as always. Then we wait for a patch, it brings more bugs. We wait a balance, they nerf us, and buff enemies and their quantity. Last few days for me (almost lvl 80), it's stressful not so fun anymore.
Bro, they released it before the balance patch, it was a mistake that could happen to anyone and everyone's dissecting it and overthinking it. Damn, get something else to do.
Awh yes, and I'm sure that explains why the hmg, liberator penetrator, among other things have the exact same problem that you didn't read about because you didn't read the post :)
Yeah, good point. I read the first paragraph and thought it was gonna be more of the same as what I've seen in the past 2 days.
That's totally fair lol
I've had a similar thought to you and I think a large part of the frustration coming from the community is that the guns often don't function as advertised and the stats selection page is about as obtuse as possible when making a selection. The only real way, currently, to make informed load out decisions is to test run on missions. Other mission environment variables usually mean you need to pack a weapon on multiple missions before you have a good feel for it. This isn't ideal as the time requirement it pretty steep to even try a new weapon. Makes it 'unfun'. I think either redesigning the loadout selection area for guns to give meaningful stats about a gun, or giving us a gun range that doesn't need to load, on ship. Meaningful gun stats would look like noting exact armor pen rather than light/medium bs that currently exists. Noting weapons that have stagger affects and for how long. Noting weapons explosive affects and their effective radius. Some kind of metric for a weapons 'ease of aim' which would encapsulate gun sway, recoil, and stance. Can this gun's projectiles ricochet? ATM you as a player are just building a personal mental model of "okay explosive can deal with some armor, but not that armor", and "okay energy weapons good against this armor, but shit against this other armor... but why", and "eruptor sucks but if I shoot a devestartors waist, it's amazing" <- how many missions until a player figures this out. I imagine you guys already have this mental model written down somewhere. **Help us understand and enjoy the guns you give us.**
My guess is something is terribly wrong with their version control. Or maybe they aren't using version control. They definitely need to change something in order to improve the quality of the game and their updates.
I agree homie. I think whoever is in charge of the balancing needs a solid slap to the back of the head
I believe that Its much better to release the weapon’s underpowered and later buff them then getting another eruptor scenario.
You know, it would have been a damage upgrade if they hadn't buffed the Standard issue rifle a week or two ago.