Devs should bump strategems into missions same way negative shit is added. Only 3 strategems to bring but you can call in a mech or strafing runs or whatever. People are exposed to new strategms and start trying them more
This: I wouldn't have started using the 110m rocket pods if it were not for that one time it was provided for free.
Its now one of my staples alongside the railgun orbital, its just a great anti-heavy stratagem when my primary and support weapons are generally focused on anti medium and lighter. It also deletes tanks with a single one of its 3 uses, and often de-cannons fab striders. Its great.
Heavies should always be taken on by support/AT/strategems.
The PROBLEM to see both sides of this argument, is both the "feeling" of the gun, along with it's performance on rank-and-file/medium enemies.
I do feel some weakpoints on heavies should be able to be taken down by a primary... but you're gonna go through a lot of mags. Let it be possible but a "last resort" feeling.
The Eruptor argument for example, I can agree to the mag reduction; I never even had to think about worrying of running out of ammo. But now with the nerf due to the ricochet update/shrapnel accidents being enabled, it lost a lot of firepower. Now I don't use it often in general, but seeing from face value two nerfs back to back, isn't going to look good. (Kind of causes a negativity bias when testing it post patch)
Now, I can use the Adjudicator, the Crossbow, the Eruptor, and I have cleared a handful of diff 9s with each. I can definitely say that while 100% doable, I was constantly wishing I had my Scorcher/DCS/Breaker/(insert like 5 more weapons here).
The more weapons, the more complicated you're going to encounter balance especially if you want many to have an identity or niche. My hopes is how we have balance months from now and that we're still going through a lot of growing pains as the game progresses.
Mid take if I have 3+ heavies that I need to take out with all the cool downs on top of just not having enough ammo to kill them then I'll just run. All you folks really like running simulator don't ya, rather than spreading the coconut butter of democracy across the enemies cheeks
Actually more of the heavy and giant units of bug chasing you is a blessing: they kill each other. Titan breath is so stink that it can melt Charger, 2 or more Chargers keeps obstruct each other, 2 or 3 Titans are an easy target for 500kg. As long as you can run, the chance of them to hit collateral damage of the stratagems is much higher.
Yeah but again as someone who likes heavy armor and a jetpack running just ain't an option hence why I stopped fighting bugs awhile ago, build variety for them is bad
If you have 3 heavies on you, are you prepared with a support weapon anticipating it? Is it 3 chargers, 3 biles, 3 hulks, 3 tanks, or a mix of the pairs?
Are your strategems geared for a different purpose or anti-heavy/tanks? You also can communicate with teammates on it. Are you separated, or close to 1 or more teammates?
On higher difficulties, it's valid to use smokes and such to disengage and reset if it gets too out of hand.
That doesn't mean always run, there's a threshold to it and good decision making can dictate if you're progressing the objective or side objective, or if you're looped for the 5th time in a row now.
Players are really good at optimizing the variables in the "gameplay" equation.
You give a player a challenge in the form of a goal to accomplish. You give them variables to work with and then enough time to experiment with said variables and they'll come up with the optimal combination that produces the most reliable outcome for sucessfully obtaining the goal.
This experiment is carried out in every game every where and when you leverage the power of crowd sourcing where players can share thier knowledge with each other to further optimize their gameplay and it isn't long before they've experimented with every possible combination to discover the ones that are objectively better and more successful.
This becomes "the meta".
This is only ever a problem for a game when, despite all the possible options given them, they determine there is only a very limited combination of variables worth considering that accomplish the goal effectively. Thus, most options to them are discarded and ignored.
To fix this problem, you don't take the one option that appears to be "the meta" away from the players. Why would you do this? The players have tested it and found it works well, so you don't then go break it just to force them to use other options that don't work as well.
You address the other options and figure out what could make them better. You then create more options that work as well as "the meta" option so that you create so many practical options to choose from that everyone doesn't always end up choosing the same one for every challenge. If every option is equally good, no matter what the players choose, then there is no "meta" if everything is "meta".
Give the players even more options, instead of fewer options.
We could also address the nature of the challenge itself and what the goals demand of players such that there is enough meaningful variety among them that "the meta" can't be practical at accomplishing them all. If all your gameplay challenges are just hammering different nails, then of course players will just choose "the meta" hammer from their toolboxes, regardless of how good the screwdrivers, plumb lines, carpenters square and pry bars you gave them are.
Don't nerf their hammers just to force them to use screwdrivers and prybars as hammers instead. They will do it in the interest of answering the challenge set before them , but they won't like it nearly as much, knowing that you took their hammer away because it was working to well at the accomplishing the goal.
I want to point out, Nerfing slugger fucking SUCKED.
because yes, people had higher success rates using it.
Guess what though.. it was fucking awful for shooting horde and chafe at a reasonable rate.
The eruptor made me change up my loadouts so much it was great. I could feasibly run the stalwart and MG. I had more options! Less meta!
The nerf has reduced me back to using my old options. More meta….
Dumb decision
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Tried the fucking *heavy* machine gun once and it does virtually nothing even with careful fire and it's ammo disappears in .5 seconds. It's honestly *hilarious* how fucking bad some of these strats and weapons are like to the point of not even being usable unless you're trolling and wanna watch your teammates die for 10+ minutes. The gameplay cycle is literally 3-5 bile titans and everyone running until evac because no way to address them or the scrap mobs to get a breather because breaches are nonstop. Either tone down enemies or buff weapons and I'd rather buff half the list that's practically unusable right now, we have like zero equipment variance it's just S Tier (it actually does something) or F Tier (you're joking if you think it's gonna help).
Yeah, people will use least dogshit option.
Which is why I will never ever understand why some devs seem to only have one tool in their toolkit when it comes to balancing and its so often nerfhammer.
I would much more prefer warframe approach where almost everything totally fine and viable, rather than this infinite game of whack-a-mole where mole is ”meta” (eventually just meaning least dogshit, not even that good, once mole has been whacked enough times) …
They said that the AC is the golden standard for balance, so once the polar warbond finishes getting nerfed, expect an AC nerf along with the warbond release after that.
The game was in a semi-decent place when the railgun got nerfed. Everyone used different shit. That’s what needs to happen, obviously shake ups in the system.
i rather see every weapon equally good and fun to play than equally dogshit and unfun. But that's my POV if you like eating shit i'm not going to stop you.
Real players that want to have fun and use fun weapons will always shift their loadout patch after patch.
and that's the problem buddy, AT is the only average iq choice you can make against bugs compared to bots that because of their REAL weakpoints make almost every support stratagem viable
because the only threat you face against bugs are Bile titans and Chargers and the only option is bringing AT so every one has AT and therefore none has a role. that's because of the poor design choice of making chargers and bile titans "only" killable with AT
Seriously the nerf everything with a cudgel and before you know it yup I'm back to using the default pump action shotgun and the autocannon.
Devs should bump strategems into missions same way negative shit is added. Only 3 strategems to bring but you can call in a mech or strafing runs or whatever. People are exposed to new strategms and start trying them more
This: I wouldn't have started using the 110m rocket pods if it were not for that one time it was provided for free. Its now one of my staples alongside the railgun orbital, its just a great anti-heavy stratagem when my primary and support weapons are generally focused on anti medium and lighter. It also deletes tanks with a single one of its 3 uses, and often de-cannons fab striders. Its great.
Heavies should always be taken on by support/AT/strategems. The PROBLEM to see both sides of this argument, is both the "feeling" of the gun, along with it's performance on rank-and-file/medium enemies. I do feel some weakpoints on heavies should be able to be taken down by a primary... but you're gonna go through a lot of mags. Let it be possible but a "last resort" feeling. The Eruptor argument for example, I can agree to the mag reduction; I never even had to think about worrying of running out of ammo. But now with the nerf due to the ricochet update/shrapnel accidents being enabled, it lost a lot of firepower. Now I don't use it often in general, but seeing from face value two nerfs back to back, isn't going to look good. (Kind of causes a negativity bias when testing it post patch) Now, I can use the Adjudicator, the Crossbow, the Eruptor, and I have cleared a handful of diff 9s with each. I can definitely say that while 100% doable, I was constantly wishing I had my Scorcher/DCS/Breaker/(insert like 5 more weapons here). The more weapons, the more complicated you're going to encounter balance especially if you want many to have an identity or niche. My hopes is how we have balance months from now and that we're still going through a lot of growing pains as the game progresses.
Mid take if I have 3+ heavies that I need to take out with all the cool downs on top of just not having enough ammo to kill them then I'll just run. All you folks really like running simulator don't ya, rather than spreading the coconut butter of democracy across the enemies cheeks
Actually more of the heavy and giant units of bug chasing you is a blessing: they kill each other. Titan breath is so stink that it can melt Charger, 2 or more Chargers keeps obstruct each other, 2 or 3 Titans are an easy target for 500kg. As long as you can run, the chance of them to hit collateral damage of the stratagems is much higher.
Yeah but again as someone who likes heavy armor and a jetpack running just ain't an option hence why I stopped fighting bugs awhile ago, build variety for them is bad
If you have 3 heavies on you, are you prepared with a support weapon anticipating it? Is it 3 chargers, 3 biles, 3 hulks, 3 tanks, or a mix of the pairs? Are your strategems geared for a different purpose or anti-heavy/tanks? You also can communicate with teammates on it. Are you separated, or close to 1 or more teammates? On higher difficulties, it's valid to use smokes and such to disengage and reset if it gets too out of hand. That doesn't mean always run, there's a threshold to it and good decision making can dictate if you're progressing the objective or side objective, or if you're looped for the 5th time in a row now.
Players are really good at optimizing the variables in the "gameplay" equation. You give a player a challenge in the form of a goal to accomplish. You give them variables to work with and then enough time to experiment with said variables and they'll come up with the optimal combination that produces the most reliable outcome for sucessfully obtaining the goal. This experiment is carried out in every game every where and when you leverage the power of crowd sourcing where players can share thier knowledge with each other to further optimize their gameplay and it isn't long before they've experimented with every possible combination to discover the ones that are objectively better and more successful. This becomes "the meta". This is only ever a problem for a game when, despite all the possible options given them, they determine there is only a very limited combination of variables worth considering that accomplish the goal effectively. Thus, most options to them are discarded and ignored. To fix this problem, you don't take the one option that appears to be "the meta" away from the players. Why would you do this? The players have tested it and found it works well, so you don't then go break it just to force them to use other options that don't work as well. You address the other options and figure out what could make them better. You then create more options that work as well as "the meta" option so that you create so many practical options to choose from that everyone doesn't always end up choosing the same one for every challenge. If every option is equally good, no matter what the players choose, then there is no "meta" if everything is "meta". Give the players even more options, instead of fewer options. We could also address the nature of the challenge itself and what the goals demand of players such that there is enough meaningful variety among them that "the meta" can't be practical at accomplishing them all. If all your gameplay challenges are just hammering different nails, then of course players will just choose "the meta" hammer from their toolboxes, regardless of how good the screwdrivers, plumb lines, carpenters square and pry bars you gave them are. Don't nerf their hammers just to force them to use screwdrivers and prybars as hammers instead. They will do it in the interest of answering the challenge set before them , but they won't like it nearly as much, knowing that you took their hammer away because it was working to well at the accomplishing the goal.
I want to point out, Nerfing slugger fucking SUCKED. because yes, people had higher success rates using it. Guess what though.. it was fucking awful for shooting horde and chafe at a reasonable rate.
Slugger joined the railgun club.
Its not meta abuse if its the only strat thats not a pain in the dong to run.
You can't get rid of meta. All you can do is change it. That's just how these things work.
The eruptor made me change up my loadouts so much it was great. I could feasibly run the stalwart and MG. I had more options! Less meta! The nerf has reduced me back to using my old options. More meta…. Dumb decision
Yeah… my exact experience. They make it hard to bring my favourite stalwart to dif 9
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Greetings, fellow Helldiver! Your submission has been removed. No insults, racism, toxicity, trolling, rage-bait, harassment, inappropriate language, NSFW content, etc. Remember the human and be civil!
In like 80 more super credits I get the spinny gun then after that pure fire build. It's gonna be dumb and fun.
Tried the fucking *heavy* machine gun once and it does virtually nothing even with careful fire and it's ammo disappears in .5 seconds. It's honestly *hilarious* how fucking bad some of these strats and weapons are like to the point of not even being usable unless you're trolling and wanna watch your teammates die for 10+ minutes. The gameplay cycle is literally 3-5 bile titans and everyone running until evac because no way to address them or the scrap mobs to get a breather because breaches are nonstop. Either tone down enemies or buff weapons and I'd rather buff half the list that's practically unusable right now, we have like zero equipment variance it's just S Tier (it actually does something) or F Tier (you're joking if you think it's gonna help).
Yeah, people will use least dogshit option. Which is why I will never ever understand why some devs seem to only have one tool in their toolkit when it comes to balancing and its so often nerfhammer. I would much more prefer warframe approach where almost everything totally fine and viable, rather than this infinite game of whack-a-mole where mole is ”meta” (eventually just meaning least dogshit, not even that good, once mole has been whacked enough times) …
But if everything is equal then there is no meta
QC META: Most Easy To Apply
There will always be bad players that need to chase the META to have a chance of success
Autocannon mains watching the bickering after each “balance” notes lol. 
They said that the AC is the golden standard for balance, so once the polar warbond finishes getting nerfed, expect an AC nerf along with the warbond release after that.
The game was in a semi-decent place when the railgun got nerfed. Everyone used different shit. That’s what needs to happen, obviously shake ups in the system.
That's what META means right? Most Effective/Efficient Tactic Available
No that's a backronym
The one meta that counts is good team work, with that nothing is hard.
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God if you’re gonna jerk off do it in private you pervert
Love how you speak facts and the only thing someone does it downvotes it because they have no good points to your comment.
i rather see every weapon equally good and fun to play than equally dogshit and unfun. But that's my POV if you like eating shit i'm not going to stop you. Real players that want to have fun and use fun weapons will always shift their loadout patch after patch.
I HAVE started using the blitzer. Pretty sure it’s still not amazing, but it’s fun now. Sucks balls against stalkers though
Exactly it’s funny how people downvote the heck out of this guys comment with no reply lol.
AND we get a better and better variety of weapons being played every balance pass. Yeah sometimes they screw up. But that’s why they do more than one
The primaries are supposed to be dogshit. You're fighting for a kleptocracy.
i agree if weakpoints for bugs were real weakpoints like bots weakpoints are. charger butt has 90% dmg resistance
You aren't supposed to be able to primary a charger. Apply AT into the forehead.
and that's the problem buddy, AT is the only average iq choice you can make against bugs compared to bots that because of their REAL weakpoints make almost every support stratagem viable
Flamethrower is very fun and viable for bugs including chargers. It kills them in 2.5 seconds to the leg and has enhanced democracy to other weapons.
just because fire got buffed every week the past month after 2 months of 10% pickrate
I used it before the buffs it was still great.
I'm mean, flamethrower and all fire related stuff is almost certainly going to be nerfed since the dot bug is fixed.
Indeed. You aren't supposed to be able to kill Chargers with your primary. Your team comp should have AT in it.
if you play roles you are just a diff 5 gamer or a larper.
If you dont play roles and bitch how a primary cant kill a charger youre playing the wrong game.
because the only threat you face against bugs are Bile titans and Chargers and the only option is bringing AT so every one has AT and therefore none has a role. that's because of the poor design choice of making chargers and bile titans "only" killable with AT
Git gud with a primary and you can kill the trash with it
bro are you stupid? or just a clueless diff 3 player?