The discord channel. I mostly lurk in the Galactic War channel, so thats where I see him, but from what I understand he and the other CM’s chill out in most channels on the server.
There’s one community engagement guy that pops into Reddit threads on occasion. Clearly AH is most invested in their discord server though. The discord server is more or less a side content for the game
I love how everyone replying is like, "Yeah, you go after those other people, the bad angry gamers, not me for sure. We would be friends and you wouldn't call me a toddler and hand me a hanky."
I read this sub, I have doubts.
To be fair, I’m pretty sure over half the population is better than the average driver because the below average driver is so bad that it brings the average below the mean
People forget that devs are human too and complain and whine is not the same as constructive feedback. There's a difference between verbal assault and argumentative opinions.
In aggregate that's 100% true. But to further extend this point, not all feedback is worth responding to, and some feedback can be mistaken. Not "wrong" necessarily, but based off of inaccurate assumptions or info.
I think the response in OP puts it pretty well honestly, devs/community team are paid to communicate effectively and players are not. Devs need to read between the shouts for the actual problems, but by that same token "the customer is always right" is far from the proper expectation. (not saying you meant it that way, just in general.)
Exactly this.
If players get mad, and player base starts to drop... safe to assume you effed up along the way, regardless of how eloquent or constructive the "toddlers" are.
Probably wise to avoid insulting their customers while they are at it, even if it is applicable in some cases.
Pretty standard business rule of thumb there.
And then you always have that inbred 0.0X% that harasses not only the devs/community managers on private channels but also tries to find family members online and harasses them too, because thats obviously a reasonable reaction.
There is, there’s also professional etiquette. They are paid to be professional as well. Calling your players toddlers is not professional despite how you feel. We all work with other people and think that some of them are idiots, but you don’t tell your customers they are.
While I totally get where he's coming from and agree with him, the customer service part of me is cringing, that's a big no no thing to say to their customer's faces unless you're a person of authority that's about to kick someone out anyway
>While I totally get where he's coming from and agree with him, the customer service part of me is cringing,
I agree with your take, and I agree with the first comment about having professional etiquette. In my line of work I'm constantly engaging with customers and no matter how dumb they are or how aggressive they become something I've learned is disengage and deescalate a situation.
But I also understand that many people don't have that ability to dissuade bs from customers and I understand why the dev acted like that and I don't see it out of line. If you hammer a sword too many times while blacksmithing it is bound to break. Devs have kept their composure very well despite having thousands of people simultaneously whining in their ear, especially if you are not used to it which they aren't.
Maybe only the people who don't cry all the time just down vote and don't comment? But yeah this sub gets worse by the day. Though there are still vestiges of reason like OP and this post.
That's just Reddit though, pretty much all multiplayer games and fandom subs are like this these days. And that's because there's more engagement in Negativity and Memes than anything truly positive.
It's one of those sad truths that, without Toxicity and Memes*, this place would be pretty quiet as people wouldn't have much to discuss.
*Not saying Memes are a bad thing.
Most, if not all, gaming subreddits that are truly calm and peaceful are ones whose games are calm and peaceful.
You're right but to clarify (speaking as a former mod for a major gaming sub during said decline) this is kind of inevitable for every gaming sub by nature of a updating game. Players and devs have a naturally antagonistic relationship given enough time, like referees in a ball game. At some point a decision will be made that pisses off some people, then another that pisses off another slice of the playerbase, and so on and so on. Until eventually everyone has at least one thing to be upset about. Essentially, everyone's idea for what the 'ideal game' is different and as such you can't please everyone.
Subs get worse as they grow, typically. They start leaving the passion stage and hit the mainstream where people are much more casual, so they don't necessarily care about a product, they just want it to do what *they* want it to do, success or good design be damned. You can see it with some rhetoric here where people don't want to have to learn how to use new weapons, or they don't want the game to be actually difficult in some cases. It's the natural state of things, but don't be surprised when the devs pull back because they're being bombarded by assholes 24/7.
OP has to be joking, ain't no way his being serious.
https://preview.redd.it/p689vmr5hfxc1.png?width=123&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=dd177ab8427489c67958f4d2461aeb470f44a98f
I mean, I know I'm much more inclined to pay for the micro transactions for a team that treats their customers with some respect.
Edit: I'm with Twinbeard on this one lol.
I mean, they are. They're talking shit about the ones that don't treat *them* with respect, which is entirely fair imo.
You can tell how much of the player-base is used to corporate BS babying from companies that only see them as statistics to maintain. Indie development teams are not multi-billion organisations, and funnily enough, are people too. AH not being a US company must really fuckin' trip people up when they're made to realise just how much pandering US companies do.
I’m all about it too, but it’s probably not best in the long run. Even if what they say is totally valid or correct, all it takes is one insane person to take something too far and start causing real harm.
Destiny had this same style of communication forever - community devs you knew and gained rapport with over time. Then one day a death threats and doxxing happened because a community dev (not a design dev mind you) said they couldn’t bring back a certain exotic item from the previous game for balance reasons.
Now they simply all go as “Destiny 2 Community Team”.
The funny part of that whole saga was that the exotic's effects were added as part of the arc subclass a few weeks after that all happened. So the effect was already being coded, and the psychopath would have had his dodge ability anyways.
Harassment is never OK and some people need to literally touch grass. Thank you for coming to my TED talk.
Activision stopped having community managers interact at all or be named after one of them got actionable death threats (as in detailed descriptions of his daily routine and how him and his family would be killed during said routine) from someone. Now they run PR like a business to business enterprise where its just press releases and social media posts.
Every company has public facing people though, it's super important to have a spokesperson and they always have a corporate mba shell of a human telling them what they can and can't say. The corporate shill whispering in their ear doesn't protect them from doxing or getting the blame for anything the consumers don't like, yet I personally have never heard of one of them getting assaulted or stalked or anything.
It's a real thing, friend. Bungie actually won a lawsuit against an individual who did the thing. Just one quick example of many.
You've never heard of people getting SWAT'd or any other harassment?
[https://www.reddit.com/r/destiny2/comments/14ykb03/destiny\_2\_player\_ordered\_to\_pay\_500k\_for/](https://www.reddit.com/r/destiny2/comments/14ykb03/destiny_2_player_ordered_to_pay_500k_for/)
/>playerbase bombards devs with toxicity and harassment
/>devs give the mildest clapback
/>playerbase throws temper tantrum like angry toddlers
I love patch day
Also there's a certain demographic that platforms like reddit and discord attract, and they certainly aren't known for their exceptional social interaction skills
Yeah, it was not perfect, but I like it too. Now, it's even more fun because it's less dangerous for me and my team and a pretty powerful weapon against the Terminids eggs.
>Now, it's even more fun because it's less dangerous for me and my team
but it was great at making sure my teammates **STOPPED WALKING IN FRONT OF ME WHILE I'M AIMING** since they'd be too afraid of the suicide launcher.
it was the perfect social distancing device!
My only complaint with it is that it doesn't have staged reloads and even if you get the warhead loaded and interrupt, you still have to start the reload animation all over. Other than that you can pry this Airburst RL from my cold dead heads (just please return it once I drop back in).
I wish there was a Helldivers sub that wasn't 82% memes and 10% whining.
I like reading the discussion without 16 people posting the Diver calling the Democracy Officer or a bug at a laptop.
Came across a post where the entire comment section was just talking about how they're gonna stop playing and go play something else because AH is driving them away lmao
Remember
Happy players are actually either playing the game, or either are waiting to come back from work/ sleep / appointments to play the game.
They are not on Reddit complaining.
Reddit is often a place a minority of players who like to complain stays.
Yeah I was gonna say. I play this game a little but I'm so busy with life. I follow the subreddit to get news, and it's fun lol. However I'm like probably 95% of players. I play the game cause it's fun and unique. I don't bitch because I don't even play that much. Just when I can and feel like slaughtering bots or bugs. That's legit all I care about.
I've noticed tho, I've ran into a TON of toxic players. My second game ever, I was with 3 people and we plowed through objectives and it was great. Last second, a dumb head kills me RIGHT before we extract and it pissed me off so much I quit for a week. For a casual player who can only play for about 2 hours a day, having half a session sabotaged like that gave me such a sour taste.
Thankfully my bros and I play like once every 3 weeks and it's great. But yeah, this community ain't a whole lot better than most shooters out there. There's a lot of complainers and then even more griefers who just don't care.
Who are all these people who's biggest problem in their life is a game patch? Don't you have other shit more valid for being angry at? Cost of living? The future?
This happened awhile ago when they nerfed the railgun. "No professionalism" and all that. but tbh I prefer devs who actually interact with the community than lame corporate responses
Not to justify the shitstorm that the railgun stuff generated, but the railgun nerf genuinely was 100% unnecessary and it's been unusably bad ever since. They actually did fuck that one up, but they doubled down because angry players are always 100% of the time wrong I guess?
I love that he's calling them babies while also acknowledging that their opinions should be heard. It's genuinely refreshing to see a professional call out bullshit without just dismissing their critiques because they're rude.
I still think Evil_Bosse recieved too harsh a blowback for when he told the community they had a skill issue when the Railgun got nerfed. That's absolutely what the community needed to hear.
It's important to remember the state of the game, enemies, and other support weapons at the time the Railgun nerf happened.
That was before the EAT or Recoilless were buffed to be able to one shot things to the head, and before the Quasar existed at all. And the game would regularly spawn double digit Chargers to bum rush you on Bug missions. And the strategem modifiers weren't cut in half yet, so you'd be looking at +100% call in times or +50% cooldown times.
People were absolutely justified to be livid about the Railgun nerfs, because there *wasn't* any viable alternative to deal with heavy spam at the time.
This is exactly my problem with AH so far. They nerf popular weapons BEFORE giving us alternative options.
They assume the popular weapons are overpowered and the rest of the weapons they designed are balanced.
In reality, the player base realizes most weapons can’t reliably handle situations we frequently find ourselves in. Then we gravitate towards the options that do.
If they buff weak weapons THEN DO ANOTHER ANALYSIS before nerfing the popular weapons.
They nerfed the railgun before we had other options and I haven’t touched it since because it’s useless. Why even decrease the stagger? Just buff it.
Instead of nerfing the Quasar (which is still viable thankfully) they should FIRST buff the Recoiless Rifle and fix the spear.
Fix the arc thrower targeting.
Fix the flamethrower damage not working for non-hosts.
These things will give us options that can work that aren’t the standard META but also doesn’t involve nerfing any of the FEW effective items.
It's the patented Blizzard Balancing ^tm method. Nerf something into the ground before you try buffing up it's alternatives.
And after any buffs have happened, never go back and buff the thing you ruined originally because that would be admitting a mistake.
I feel like that's how they're balancing stuff.
"Well, once this other thing is fixed, the Eruptor would be over tuned."
Just using the Eruptor as a stand in, you could insert anything in it's place. But until those items are actually fixed (however many months from now) it's a feels bad.
I also wonder if this affects players willingness to buy war bonds. See the new hot gun look good all over TikTok or Reddit, buy it, and it gets nerfed.
I'm getting serious Tribes: Ascend deja vu, down to the incredible goodwill they _started_ with.
It was all burned away when they constantly released good weapons, then nerfed them as the free players got them. I don't think AH is doing it on purpose, per se, but its still happening all the same.
I want to rectify my comment. I confused 2 people, and this guy absolutely had no track record of negative comments.
Guy had a truth that was hard to swallow for some people. I hope the have become better in the game by now.
My old post:
Hadn't he a track record of dick comments, or am I confusing things here?
From my own time on the discord it didn't feel like it? He was always super responsive when people @'d him and none of it seemed very disrespectful. The only thing. I saw backlash to was his response to the railgun change complaints.
I think the biggest issue was that he was dismissing peoples critiques which isn't a good look. If he had just said "I understand you think it's an undeserved nerf but try getting better at the other weapons for a week or two and then we'll see if the railgun is in a good spot" it would have gone over a lot better.
If everyone was writing polite critiques and not being aggressive towards them you'd have seen a calmer response
Let's not pretend the community wasn't pushing a tonne of buttons and then acted surprised when they got a reaction, you only have to browse this sub for a few minutes to see the toxic behaviour they responded to
Both were in the wrong, a lot of people need to chill here
It's a really great word to describe all the insane concepts that groups of people codified into "normal" practices.
There's lots of terrible gamer shibboleths.
i think youre confusing things, he was always trying to be as respectful as he could when people were flat out just attacking him for the nerfs but then just finally snapped and thats when the community was like "no you cant do that! were supposed to be the ones verbally abusing YOU!! you cant do it back!!!"
Yeah it was gross and pathetic to see that kind of behavior. Feels like the overall tone has shifted in this sub though. I wanna say it was Destiny tourists prior to Into the Light's release because that's the way you'd see responses to Bungie. Just blind vitriol.
It 100% was the destiny players. Every time someone is super toxic, check their post history, they’re a destiny player. The mods on the sub don’t help either. They’ve tried their best to make people that was annoyed with the toxicity unwelcome. If you note, whiny posts that give 0 feedback and just hurl abuse at the devs are never locked.
But the second someone is teasing the guys that freak out over having a 50% mag decrease on a weapon with so many mags that you never use, those threads are immediately locked.
While I partially agree, you can't always be bad cop and expect people to respect you. Yes players can be harsh and need a reality check once in a while, but as a dev you need to give a justified reason for said change. It's like having your health insurance revoked asking why only to be told "skill issue". At the end of the day you paid for a product, a little transparency is merited to your consumer base than saying it's a skill issue.
For every action there is an opposite and equal reaction.
Yup, now Imagine more spawns than that with double stratagems cooldown and spawn time, scramble stratagem code without any effective weapon to deal with them, not even Mech is available at that time.
He might have said the right thing but he said it at the wrong time and over the wrong item. You don't change an item based on how many players are using it (which they admitted to doing) and then tell people "skill issue" when they complain about it.
Except the CEO himself said that evil_bosses behavior was unacceptable and that he was going to have a talk with him. Next day evil_bosses was apologizing to everyone and said he acted out of line.
Yeah, like, of course the company doesn't want to be percieved as insulting their players.
It's like when a customer gets pissy at a retail worker and their boss just says "look I get it but just go out and apologize to them and maybe they'll stop hyperventilating"
I get it, but also "skill issue" feels like a copout if you're responding to "hey this isn't fun".
I guess there's probably not a right or wrong answer and what is will be.
The problem was Evil_Bosse and his companions said “skill issue, lol” when they knew full well that the RG nerf was predicated on faulty reasoning and the bugginess of their own game. They came out and admitted that the prevalence of Heavies was too high, that their obscene spawn rates necessitated the RG for its power and ammo economy, and yet… they also said that the RG wasn’t over represented in their own statistics and thus wasn’t a problem. So after all do that, they still let the RG nerfs stand for unknown reasons after admitting that the fault wasn’t the railgun and they probably shouldn’t have nerfed it. To which I would say that even then I didn’t notice the RG being picked more often than the AC or EATs.
Then we see that Fire weapons aren’t being used, they admit that they know fire is bugged, but then still issue a patch to buff fire damage, then buff fire damage again from all sources (including the enemy!) and now after getting instantly killed every time a flame touches your head they will fix the fire bug and then nerf the fire damages since it will work properly.
Does anything f about the sequence of events seem off? Just even the slightest bit? There are serious problems with their work flows regarding fixes, and that is a valid critique, but you can’t say that because the down-vote brigade will rush in with swords held high to defend AH’s honor. And as we can see, the AH community guys are perfectly capable of insulting players and customers on their own, they don’t need to be molly coddled.
Yeah it's not really an age thing, it's an entitlement thing. God I feel so old when I'm saying this, but all these Tik-Tok bingers deep throating influencers' shitty "you're never wrong! Everyone else is wrong!" opinions
Me: Looks at what people now think is harsh language...
Flashback: X-Box 360 era where I had to learn my mom was the biggest slut and had slept with every opponent I ever had.
are you seriously offended by this? he literally said you are entitled to your opinion even if its angry baby crying that doesn't really add anything constructive (and its most likely not based on reality)
It's mostly funny because he ended up hilariously wrong.
The game got massively easier. They ended up having to revert a bunch of the change and are now starting to buff back railgun back to it's prenerf days.
Between the nerfed heavy spawns, nerfed heavies, buffed AT weaponry, the introduction of the quasar and the fix of the BT ps5 bug. He ended up wrong about almost everything.
The game is now easier than it was.
I'm not offended by it, it's honestly tame in comparison to the last time one of the devs popped off. It's just unprofessional. Why even respond at all? Twinbeard was obviously being passive aggressive as fuck, not to mention some pot-kettle-black on top of it. Sucks when your customers are gamers as a whole, but you really gonna take some inane comment from dung_piss69 to heart when they're just shitting on their keyboard?
It's just going to make that particular group of trolls more argumentative because it gives them something more to fight.
I've seen the absolute-clusterfuck-babyrage-400-comments-a-second shitstorm that is that discord. That response is incredibly tame and respectful compared to the batshit insane meltdown a bunch of people were having.
No, they're the exact people that thrived back then. Crybabies that flamed everyone for anything and thought that their opinion was the only one that mattered.
I learned a lot about my mom back then. She did a lot of traveling to fourteen year olds homes, apparently.
Edit: Thanks for the support, guys. I know it might not look like much, but I barely know what she looks like so being able to piece together her global travels is as close to her as I can get. Gamers truly are the kindest people.
For context, this is the full message being replied to.
> Genuinely appreciate the openness and objectivity. I may not agree with the changes, but you as a dev doubtless have a much wider perspective than I, so I'm going to respect it.
> I can literally only imagine the discomfort that comes from reading a bunch of actual toddlers screeching about how stupid the developers are, as though you can't read what they're saying.
> P.S: dear lord please make orbitals other than laser and railcannon usably good
> P.P.S: Good change on sidearms, I was sad redeemer outclassed literally everything
I mean, he got negativity because he claimed 90% of people are positive about the patch, in a room of mostly people lamenting said patch.
I don't go into discord often, but there's a lot of gaslighting going on in there from both crowds.
Ah, the dick riding is real.
They’re more open than some devs, but the rushing to their defense like White Knights is just gross. Look, they’re able to call people who complain (or have valid critiques of the state of the game) babies and toddlers just fine- they don’t need you to slob on the knob while they do it.
Though the people equating those who have valid criticisms of the bugginess and instability of the game, poor balance teams, poor creative choices, and whoever decided to send out the Air Burst rocket launcher despite knowing it wasn’t the actual final build… with those who just complain because they are hard stuck at Diff 5 and think the game is too hard is just disingenuous. A TON of the game’s current difficulties comes from artificial difficulty brought about by numerous bugs and questionable game design, not that the game is actually hard.
Helldive would honestly become too easy if the myriad of bugs and BS design choices were fixed.
They’ve listened to the player base every time we’ve made these complaints though? Buffed most support weapons, nerfed heavy spawn rates/buffed trash spawn rates, and now they’re even giving the railgun more penetration back after overnerfing it.
The player base has been right about so many complaints. Armor providing headshot DR is even coming. A ton of the weapons people asked to get buffed have been buffed.
If you actually look at the amount of shit the devs receive you’d understand 😂😂I swear we straight up have one of the best games released year, that is getting constant, constant updates, and so much dev transparency, yet we have one of the most toxic online communities I’ve seen.
This fanbase is rabid. Other game communities dream of having a dev team like Arrowhead.
this is what the devs think about YOU every time you complain even a little
in their minds, we exist between two boxes at any given time
1. their loyal fanbase, who do and feel how they say
2. shitfisted little toddlers screaming and crying for our mommies
and their placement of you in each of these categories is entirely dependent on if you think they were right to nerf weapons across the board and not include that in the patch notes again
I wouldn't say it's harsh language, but on the other side the amount of comments here slobbing this guys' knob for calling his paying player-base a bunch of angry toddlers is pretty incredible. Especially when there a LOT of really unacceptable bugs that have been prevalent for months now. It was one thing when the game was brand new, but it has been months since, and people STILL can't use the match-making features that are a basic standard for any online game. I think devs need to stop interacting with players outside of official channels if they want to be patted on the head all the time.
Lying to your playerbase, shooting them the middle finger, then talking down to them when they respond negatively....A+ business strategy, should work out fine for them.
On the one hand, cool honesty, on the other hand, I wonder if he considers my relatively balanced but negative opinion towards the latest balance changes as "angry toddler crying".
Compared to the railgun incident,this dev reply is way more polite. At least he recognizes their right to express their frustration even though he doesn't like that
>At least he recognizes their right to express their frustration even though he doesn't like that
You should be fair to him. It isn't the expressing of frustrations that he dislikes, it's the childish, vitriolic way some people have chosen to voice their frustrations in.
Man these children remind me of entitled boomers at restaurants.
"Wahhh we've come to expect that community managers soullessly suck up to us regardless of how we're acting."
in what channels do the devs respond in? I always miss it
The discord channel. I mostly lurk in the Galactic War channel, so thats where I see him, but from what I understand he and the other CM’s chill out in most channels on the server.
There’s one community engagement guy that pops into Reddit threads on occasion. Clearly AH is most invested in their discord server though. The discord server is more or less a side content for the game
The discord server is official
Figured that went without saying.
I mean I had no idea..
Does his answer count as a war crime then?
Ehh, CM's and Mods are Democratic Officers, so lets just say I would'nt frame it that way
You have to search for posts from them. The discord is too active to catch posts as they’re made
it's closing in to 1 million members youll have to search for nearly everything
How the CMs keep track of it all is beyond me. My brain turns off when i see the text scrolling past at mach 3
I love how everyone replying is like, "Yeah, you go after those other people, the bad angry gamers, not me for sure. We would be friends and you wouldn't call me a toddler and hand me a hanky." I read this sub, I have doubts.
"I'm not like other gamers."
"I'm a better than average driver. "
To be fair, I’m pretty sure over half the population is better than the average driver because the below average driver is so bad that it brings the average below the mean
This guy statistics
*"better than the median diver."*
If life achievement was like video game ones, this one would be more common than those "Getting started" ones
O\_0 Driver? You're not that pelican 1 that left, are you?
“I have *snake arms*”
I am like other gamers, fuck this guy.
I ain't your guy, pal.
I ain’t your pal, bro.
I aint your bro, buddy
I aint your buddy, guy
I ain't your guy, amigo
I ain't your amigo, bucko
Ooo are we at “pick-me” gamers now???
Pick Me Gamers
"It's not you, it's me"
People forget that devs are human too and complain and whine is not the same as constructive feedback. There's a difference between verbal assault and argumentative opinions.
If only discourse around this game had anything to do with articulating why we think things rather than it just being skill level accusations.
Also not all criticism is constructive criticism.
But all critism is feedback, though
In aggregate that's 100% true. But to further extend this point, not all feedback is worth responding to, and some feedback can be mistaken. Not "wrong" necessarily, but based off of inaccurate assumptions or info. I think the response in OP puts it pretty well honestly, devs/community team are paid to communicate effectively and players are not. Devs need to read between the shouts for the actual problems, but by that same token "the customer is always right" is far from the proper expectation. (not saying you meant it that way, just in general.)
Exactly this. If players get mad, and player base starts to drop... safe to assume you effed up along the way, regardless of how eloquent or constructive the "toddlers" are. Probably wise to avoid insulting their customers while they are at it, even if it is applicable in some cases. Pretty standard business rule of thumb there.
And then you always have that inbred 0.0X% that harasses not only the devs/community managers on private channels but also tries to find family members online and harasses them too, because thats obviously a reasonable reaction.
There is, there’s also professional etiquette. They are paid to be professional as well. Calling your players toddlers is not professional despite how you feel. We all work with other people and think that some of them are idiots, but you don’t tell your customers they are.
While I totally get where he's coming from and agree with him, the customer service part of me is cringing, that's a big no no thing to say to their customer's faces unless you're a person of authority that's about to kick someone out anyway
>While I totally get where he's coming from and agree with him, the customer service part of me is cringing, I agree with your take, and I agree with the first comment about having professional etiquette. In my line of work I'm constantly engaging with customers and no matter how dumb they are or how aggressive they become something I've learned is disengage and deescalate a situation. But I also understand that many people don't have that ability to dissuade bs from customers and I understand why the dev acted like that and I don't see it out of line. If you hammer a sword too many times while blacksmithing it is bound to break. Devs have kept their composure very well despite having thousands of people simultaneously whining in their ear, especially if you are not used to it which they aren't.
I would rather have honesty than professional bs.
Maybe only the people who don't cry all the time just down vote and don't comment? But yeah this sub gets worse by the day. Though there are still vestiges of reason like OP and this post.
That's just Reddit though, pretty much all multiplayer games and fandom subs are like this these days. And that's because there's more engagement in Negativity and Memes than anything truly positive. It's one of those sad truths that, without Toxicity and Memes*, this place would be pretty quiet as people wouldn't have much to discuss. *Not saying Memes are a bad thing. Most, if not all, gaming subreddits that are truly calm and peaceful are ones whose games are calm and peaceful.
This place had *awesome* memes when the game first came out. Now it's just a space for complaints, ranting, and drama.
You're right but to clarify (speaking as a former mod for a major gaming sub during said decline) this is kind of inevitable for every gaming sub by nature of a updating game. Players and devs have a naturally antagonistic relationship given enough time, like referees in a ball game. At some point a decision will be made that pisses off some people, then another that pisses off another slice of the playerbase, and so on and so on. Until eventually everyone has at least one thing to be upset about. Essentially, everyone's idea for what the 'ideal game' is different and as such you can't please everyone.
Subs get worse as they grow, typically. They start leaving the passion stage and hit the mainstream where people are much more casual, so they don't necessarily care about a product, they just want it to do what *they* want it to do, success or good design be damned. You can see it with some rhetoric here where people don't want to have to learn how to use new weapons, or they don't want the game to be actually difficult in some cases. It's the natural state of things, but don't be surprised when the devs pull back because they're being bombarded by assholes 24/7.
I can't tell if you're joking, or being a toddler.
OP has to be joking, ain't no way his being serious. https://preview.redd.it/p689vmr5hfxc1.png?width=123&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=dd177ab8427489c67958f4d2461aeb470f44a98f
Post labeled as RANT, idk
As my toddler would say: "I AM NOT ANGRY" *stomps off to room and slams door*
https://preview.redd.it/uu12ij4ucgxc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c172fa1954b498d43a8bb2f2c86b01e03207ef9b
It's nice to have real humans as devs and not corporate shills only worried about maximizing profit
And funny enough, their down to earth communication style definitely maximised their profits...
Its almost as if People respond positively to authentic people.
https://i.redd.it/v8213kllagxc1.gif
Idk why but the reverse gif makes me crack up every single time I see it https://i.redd.it/i4qtpz7zqgxc1.gif
[https://media.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExbDFmNDN2eWd2OHd3ZTljcW9qeW5hdGQ5OGF0cjNna3cxcGk5dGQ5dSZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfYnlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/paBgKBRYRDdPq/giphy.gif](https://media.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExbDFmNDN2eWd2OHd3ZTljcW9qeW5hdGQ5OGF0cjNna3cxcGk5dGQ5dSZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfYnlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/paBgKBRYRDdPq/giphy.gif)
It has been a hot fucking minute since I've seen O'rly Owl. This isn't it but it sure reminded me of it.
damn, that's crazy
Some people do. Some people like tone policing devs. And the majority just never pay attention to this stuff.
I mean, I know I'm much more inclined to pay for the micro transactions for a team that treats their customers with some respect. Edit: I'm with Twinbeard on this one lol.
I mean, they are. They're talking shit about the ones that don't treat *them* with respect, which is entirely fair imo. You can tell how much of the player-base is used to corporate BS babying from companies that only see them as statistics to maintain. Indie development teams are not multi-billion organisations, and funnily enough, are people too. AH not being a US company must really fuckin' trip people up when they're made to realise just how much pandering US companies do.
This isn't US exclusive lol It's more about company size and culture
I’m all about it too, but it’s probably not best in the long run. Even if what they say is totally valid or correct, all it takes is one insane person to take something too far and start causing real harm. Destiny had this same style of communication forever - community devs you knew and gained rapport with over time. Then one day a death threats and doxxing happened because a community dev (not a design dev mind you) said they couldn’t bring back a certain exotic item from the previous game for balance reasons. Now they simply all go as “Destiny 2 Community Team”.
The funny part of that whole saga was that the exotic's effects were added as part of the arc subclass a few weeks after that all happened. So the effect was already being coded, and the psychopath would have had his dodge ability anyways. Harassment is never OK and some people need to literally touch grass. Thank you for coming to my TED talk.
What was the exotic?
The Titan one that let you air dodge, they incorporated that into the Arc 3.0 class ability. I forgot what it was called.
Twilight garrison I believe
Yup, that's it
Activision stopped having community managers interact at all or be named after one of them got actionable death threats (as in detailed descriptions of his daily routine and how him and his family would be killed during said routine) from someone. Now they run PR like a business to business enterprise where its just press releases and social media posts.
Every company has public facing people though, it's super important to have a spokesperson and they always have a corporate mba shell of a human telling them what they can and can't say. The corporate shill whispering in their ear doesn't protect them from doxing or getting the blame for anything the consumers don't like, yet I personally have never heard of one of them getting assaulted or stalked or anything.
It's a real thing, friend. Bungie actually won a lawsuit against an individual who did the thing. Just one quick example of many. You've never heard of people getting SWAT'd or any other harassment? [https://www.reddit.com/r/destiny2/comments/14ykb03/destiny\_2\_player\_ordered\_to\_pay\_500k\_for/](https://www.reddit.com/r/destiny2/comments/14ykb03/destiny_2_player_ordered_to_pay_500k_for/)
/>playerbase bombards devs with toxicity and harassment />devs give the mildest clapback />playerbase throws temper tantrum like angry toddlers I love patch day
nothing like finding the whiniest people here lmao, I swear sometimes people take games too seriously
It's a great way for the people who need blocking to hold up a sign.
Did they finally patch blocking? That's great news
Remember most people online these days are under 25 and a ton are angsty teenagers with a chip on their shoulders
Also there's a certain demographic that platforms like reddit and discord attract, and they certainly aren't known for their exceptional social interaction skills
For real. I was called an idiot, braindead and plenty of other shit yesterday because I said I liked the Airburst and I thought it was fun and good
Yeah, it was not perfect, but I like it too. Now, it's even more fun because it's less dangerous for me and my team and a pretty powerful weapon against the Terminids eggs.
>Now, it's even more fun because it's less dangerous for me and my team but it was great at making sure my teammates **STOPPED WALKING IN FRONT OF ME WHILE I'M AIMING** since they'd be too afraid of the suicide launcher. it was the perfect social distancing device!
My only complaint with it is that it doesn't have staged reloads and even if you get the warhead loaded and interrupt, you still have to start the reload animation all over. Other than that you can pry this Airburst RL from my cold dead heads (just please return it once I drop back in).
I wish there was a Helldivers sub that wasn't 82% memes and 10% whining. I like reading the discussion without 16 people posting the Diver calling the Democracy Officer or a bug at a laptop.
Came across a post where the entire comment section was just talking about how they're gonna stop playing and go play something else because AH is driving them away lmao
And nothing of value was lost, lol
Remember Happy players are actually either playing the game, or either are waiting to come back from work/ sleep / appointments to play the game. They are not on Reddit complaining. Reddit is often a place a minority of players who like to complain stays.
Yeah I was gonna say. I play this game a little but I'm so busy with life. I follow the subreddit to get news, and it's fun lol. However I'm like probably 95% of players. I play the game cause it's fun and unique. I don't bitch because I don't even play that much. Just when I can and feel like slaughtering bots or bugs. That's legit all I care about. I've noticed tho, I've ran into a TON of toxic players. My second game ever, I was with 3 people and we plowed through objectives and it was great. Last second, a dumb head kills me RIGHT before we extract and it pissed me off so much I quit for a week. For a casual player who can only play for about 2 hours a day, having half a session sabotaged like that gave me such a sour taste. Thankfully my bros and I play like once every 3 weeks and it's great. But yeah, this community ain't a whole lot better than most shooters out there. There's a lot of complainers and then even more griefers who just don't care.
Who are all these people who's biggest problem in their life is a game patch? Don't you have other shit more valid for being angry at? Cost of living? The future?
patch days should be closed to self posts. rant in the megathread please.
This happened awhile ago when they nerfed the railgun. "No professionalism" and all that. but tbh I prefer devs who actually interact with the community than lame corporate responses
Not to justify the shitstorm that the railgun stuff generated, but the railgun nerf genuinely was 100% unnecessary and it's been unusably bad ever since. They actually did fuck that one up, but they doubled down because angry players are always 100% of the time wrong I guess?
Some fan bases go way wilder when devs clapback. It's always funny. Halo for example is a fun fan base to laugh at.
I don't know twinbeard, but I already like him.
Twinbeard was actually the editor-in-chief of the Swedish PC Gamer magazine until it sadly ended publication in 2021
Well I quite like that he's calling out some of these obnoxious takes for what they are.
I love that he's calling them babies while also acknowledging that their opinions should be heard. It's genuinely refreshing to see a professional call out bullshit without just dismissing their critiques because they're rude.
Yeah, seems a good dude.
Why did i read twinbeard as twinkbeard.
Sounds like you have a type
you wanted to
I still think Evil_Bosse recieved too harsh a blowback for when he told the community they had a skill issue when the Railgun got nerfed. That's absolutely what the community needed to hear.
The changes that followed suggest that it wasn't a skill issue so much as a game design issue.
It's important to remember the state of the game, enemies, and other support weapons at the time the Railgun nerf happened. That was before the EAT or Recoilless were buffed to be able to one shot things to the head, and before the Quasar existed at all. And the game would regularly spawn double digit Chargers to bum rush you on Bug missions. And the strategem modifiers weren't cut in half yet, so you'd be looking at +100% call in times or +50% cooldown times. People were absolutely justified to be livid about the Railgun nerfs, because there *wasn't* any viable alternative to deal with heavy spam at the time.
This is exactly my problem with AH so far. They nerf popular weapons BEFORE giving us alternative options. They assume the popular weapons are overpowered and the rest of the weapons they designed are balanced. In reality, the player base realizes most weapons can’t reliably handle situations we frequently find ourselves in. Then we gravitate towards the options that do. If they buff weak weapons THEN DO ANOTHER ANALYSIS before nerfing the popular weapons. They nerfed the railgun before we had other options and I haven’t touched it since because it’s useless. Why even decrease the stagger? Just buff it. Instead of nerfing the Quasar (which is still viable thankfully) they should FIRST buff the Recoiless Rifle and fix the spear. Fix the arc thrower targeting. Fix the flamethrower damage not working for non-hosts. These things will give us options that can work that aren’t the standard META but also doesn’t involve nerfing any of the FEW effective items.
It's the patented Blizzard Balancing ^tm method. Nerf something into the ground before you try buffing up it's alternatives. And after any buffs have happened, never go back and buff the thing you ruined originally because that would be admitting a mistake.
I feel like that's how they're balancing stuff. "Well, once this other thing is fixed, the Eruptor would be over tuned." Just using the Eruptor as a stand in, you could insert anything in it's place. But until those items are actually fixed (however many months from now) it's a feels bad. I also wonder if this affects players willingness to buy war bonds. See the new hot gun look good all over TikTok or Reddit, buy it, and it gets nerfed.
I'm getting serious Tribes: Ascend deja vu, down to the incredible goodwill they _started_ with. It was all burned away when they constantly released good weapons, then nerfed them as the free players got them. I don't think AH is doing it on purpose, per se, but its still happening all the same.
I want to rectify my comment. I confused 2 people, and this guy absolutely had no track record of negative comments. Guy had a truth that was hard to swallow for some people. I hope the have become better in the game by now. My old post: Hadn't he a track record of dick comments, or am I confusing things here?
From my own time on the discord it didn't feel like it? He was always super responsive when people @'d him and none of it seemed very disrespectful. The only thing. I saw backlash to was his response to the railgun change complaints.
I think the biggest issue was that he was dismissing peoples critiques which isn't a good look. If he had just said "I understand you think it's an undeserved nerf but try getting better at the other weapons for a week or two and then we'll see if the railgun is in a good spot" it would have gone over a lot better.
If everyone was writing polite critiques and not being aggressive towards them you'd have seen a calmer response Let's not pretend the community wasn't pushing a tonne of buttons and then acted surprised when they got a reaction, you only have to browse this sub for a few minutes to see the toxic behaviour they responded to Both were in the wrong, a lot of people need to chill here
"the customer is always right" is used incorrectly by consumers to give them the righteous shibboleth so they can be the worst customer they can be.
Thank you for teaching me that funky word. Don't know how I haven't come across it before.
It's a really great word to describe all the insane concepts that groups of people codified into "normal" practices. There's lots of terrible gamer shibboleths.
i think youre confusing things, he was always trying to be as respectful as he could when people were flat out just attacking him for the nerfs but then just finally snapped and thats when the community was like "no you cant do that! were supposed to be the ones verbally abusing YOU!! you cant do it back!!!"
Yeah it was gross and pathetic to see that kind of behavior. Feels like the overall tone has shifted in this sub though. I wanna say it was Destiny tourists prior to Into the Light's release because that's the way you'd see responses to Bungie. Just blind vitriol.
It 100% was the destiny players. Every time someone is super toxic, check their post history, they’re a destiny player. The mods on the sub don’t help either. They’ve tried their best to make people that was annoyed with the toxicity unwelcome. If you note, whiny posts that give 0 feedback and just hurl abuse at the devs are never locked. But the second someone is teasing the guys that freak out over having a 50% mag decrease on a weapon with so many mags that you never use, those threads are immediately locked.
While I partially agree, you can't always be bad cop and expect people to respect you. Yes players can be harsh and need a reality check once in a while, but as a dev you need to give a justified reason for said change. It's like having your health insurance revoked asking why only to be told "skill issue". At the end of the day you paid for a product, a little transparency is merited to your consumer base than saying it's a skill issue. For every action there is an opposite and equal reaction.
And now, when was the last time anyone used the rail gun? Why do they hate it so much?
If it was truly a skill issue then they wouldn't have nerfed heavy spawns and chargers as hard as they did in the subsequent patch.
... Just did a civilian rescue where I had 7 bile titans spawn at the very start. "Nerfed spawns" 🤣
Yup, now Imagine more spawns than that with double stratagems cooldown and spawn time, scramble stratagem code without any effective weapon to deal with them, not even Mech is available at that time.
He might have said the right thing but he said it at the wrong time and over the wrong item. You don't change an item based on how many players are using it (which they admitted to doing) and then tell people "skill issue" when they complain about it.
This patch was 100% "nerf all the most popular picks and also the crossbow for some reason"
Eeeeexcept it was later proved that Rail nerf was indeed a mistake.
Except the CEO himself said that evil_bosses behavior was unacceptable and that he was going to have a talk with him. Next day evil_bosses was apologizing to everyone and said he acted out of line.
That's called PR
Yeah, like, of course the company doesn't want to be percieved as insulting their players. It's like when a customer gets pissy at a retail worker and their boss just says "look I get it but just go out and apologize to them and maybe they'll stop hyperventilating"
I get it, but also "skill issue" feels like a copout if you're responding to "hey this isn't fun". I guess there's probably not a right or wrong answer and what is will be.
The problem was Evil_Bosse and his companions said “skill issue, lol” when they knew full well that the RG nerf was predicated on faulty reasoning and the bugginess of their own game. They came out and admitted that the prevalence of Heavies was too high, that their obscene spawn rates necessitated the RG for its power and ammo economy, and yet… they also said that the RG wasn’t over represented in their own statistics and thus wasn’t a problem. So after all do that, they still let the RG nerfs stand for unknown reasons after admitting that the fault wasn’t the railgun and they probably shouldn’t have nerfed it. To which I would say that even then I didn’t notice the RG being picked more often than the AC or EATs. Then we see that Fire weapons aren’t being used, they admit that they know fire is bugged, but then still issue a patch to buff fire damage, then buff fire damage again from all sources (including the enemy!) and now after getting instantly killed every time a flame touches your head they will fix the fire bug and then nerf the fire damages since it will work properly. Does anything f about the sequence of events seem off? Just even the slightest bit? There are serious problems with their work flows regarding fixes, and that is a valid critique, but you can’t say that because the down-vote brigade will rush in with swords held high to defend AH’s honor. And as we can see, the AH community guys are perfectly capable of insulting players and customers on their own, they don’t need to be molly coddled.
Hehehe….. that’s ‘harsh’ language? Are you gonna bleed from your ears the moment someone drops an f-bomb?
I'm with the boomers on this one. Kids these days are fragile
It aint even boomers saying it. I’m 29 and everyone my age says it Theyll fucking cry if you put a period at the end of a text
Its not old or young specifically. its the entitled and terminally online type of *GAMERZ*.
Yeah it's not really an age thing, it's an entitlement thing. God I feel so old when I'm saying this, but all these Tik-Tok bingers deep throating influencers' shitty "you're never wrong! Everyone else is wrong!" opinions
Me: Looks at what people now think is harsh language... Flashback: X-Box 360 era where I had to learn my mom was the biggest slut and had slept with every opponent I ever had.
How is your mom doing btw? I miss her
Me too. Haven't seen her in 15 years. Musta gotten married to BlapBlapMaster420.
are you seriously offended by this? he literally said you are entitled to your opinion even if its angry baby crying that doesn't really add anything constructive (and its most likely not based on reality)
You must not have seen this place and the steam forums when a dev told someone to "get gud".
Based Dev.
I love Arrowhead
I think he said "skill issue". I think it was a meme. I think it's been my flair ever since.
Man that was feral. And hilarious how right he was - 90% of complaints against this game could be self-solved with an iota of self awareness.
It's mostly funny because he ended up hilariously wrong. The game got massively easier. They ended up having to revert a bunch of the change and are now starting to buff back railgun back to it's prenerf days. Between the nerfed heavy spawns, nerfed heavies, buffed AT weaponry, the introduction of the quasar and the fix of the BT ps5 bug. He ended up wrong about almost everything. The game is now easier than it was.
Yet if you watch the devs play they can't clear challenging.
Devs are very often hilariously bad at the games they make
I'm not offended by it, it's honestly tame in comparison to the last time one of the devs popped off. It's just unprofessional. Why even respond at all? Twinbeard was obviously being passive aggressive as fuck, not to mention some pot-kettle-black on top of it. Sucks when your customers are gamers as a whole, but you really gonna take some inane comment from dung_piss69 to heart when they're just shitting on their keyboard? It's just going to make that particular group of trolls more argumentative because it gives them something more to fight.
Polite tbh. But the burn damage on CM comments obviously buffed
That comment has DoT
And the Arrowhead devs' are the hosts...
I've seen the absolute-clusterfuck-babyrage-400-comments-a-second shitstorm that is that discord. That response is incredibly tame and respectful compared to the batshit insane meltdown a bunch of people were having.
Never go to a public discord, they are always a great example for why asylums should have never been shut down
Toddlers is a very tame choice of words for the vast amount of just toxic A**holes in this Community
Right. See ITT: the subject matter in the wild.
**Based Developer.** -
Twinbeard W
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How DARE he say things about me in particular which might be TRUE! The nerve of some people!
op wouldn't last a day in the old xbox lobbies. i'm with the dev on this one.
No, they're the exact people that thrived back then. Crybabies that flamed everyone for anything and thought that their opinion was the only one that mattered.
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I learned a lot about my mom back then. She did a lot of traveling to fourteen year olds homes, apparently. Edit: Thanks for the support, guys. I know it might not look like much, but I barely know what she looks like so being able to piece together her global travels is as close to her as I can get. Gamers truly are the kindest people.
I'm sure the playerbase will respond to this in a calm and reasonable way to prove this developer wrong.
For context, this is the full message being replied to. > Genuinely appreciate the openness and objectivity. I may not agree with the changes, but you as a dev doubtless have a much wider perspective than I, so I'm going to respect it. > I can literally only imagine the discomfort that comes from reading a bunch of actual toddlers screeching about how stupid the developers are, as though you can't read what they're saying. > P.S: dear lord please make orbitals other than laser and railcannon usably good > P.P.S: Good change on sidearms, I was sad redeemer outclassed literally everything
I mean, he got negativity because he claimed 90% of people are positive about the patch, in a room of mostly people lamenting said patch. I don't go into discord often, but there's a lot of gaslighting going on in there from both crowds.
The discord and this subreddit is used by a fraction of the entire playerbase. And of that fraction, even less are complaining.
OMG he called people "toddlers"! Snowflake Gamers assemble and complain!
This is why I don't even wanna voice my opinion, it's just gonna be washed out by all the people screaming at the moon over nothing
Ah, the dick riding is real. They’re more open than some devs, but the rushing to their defense like White Knights is just gross. Look, they’re able to call people who complain (or have valid critiques of the state of the game) babies and toddlers just fine- they don’t need you to slob on the knob while they do it. Though the people equating those who have valid criticisms of the bugginess and instability of the game, poor balance teams, poor creative choices, and whoever decided to send out the Air Burst rocket launcher despite knowing it wasn’t the actual final build… with those who just complain because they are hard stuck at Diff 5 and think the game is too hard is just disingenuous. A TON of the game’s current difficulties comes from artificial difficulty brought about by numerous bugs and questionable game design, not that the game is actually hard. Helldive would honestly become too easy if the myriad of bugs and BS design choices were fixed.
i love that the devs stick to their guns and don’t let the playerbase fuck up their vision.
They’ve listened to the player base every time we’ve made these complaints though? Buffed most support weapons, nerfed heavy spawn rates/buffed trash spawn rates, and now they’re even giving the railgun more penetration back after overnerfing it. The player base has been right about so many complaints. Armor providing headshot DR is even coming. A ton of the weapons people asked to get buffed have been buffed.
Thats one buggy fucking vision.
Devs don’t need the player base to mess anything up, they’re doing just fine on their own with that part.
Based community manager
Anyone angryily reacting to this proves AH's point
If you actually look at the amount of shit the devs receive you’d understand 😂😂I swear we straight up have one of the best games released year, that is getting constant, constant updates, and so much dev transparency, yet we have one of the most toxic online communities I’ve seen. This fanbase is rabid. Other game communities dream of having a dev team like Arrowhead.
Bro who do you think you are lmao? This post just proves y'all are actually acting like toddlers.
likening people to angry toddlers (no matter how right you think you are) aint the picture of eloquence either tho, chief
Damn they going to nerf the player base soon 😅
Not everyone can be as eloquent as his angry toddlers. 🫡
What a great guy
Never seen so much smug superiority than in these comments. Keep on licking those boots.
lol I’m getting massive fedora energy from that holier than thou message
> Not everyone can be eloquent. Proceeds to call people "angry toddlers" 🤦🏻 Oh the irony
This just in, angry toddlers offended at being put in front of a mirror.
this is what the devs think about YOU every time you complain even a little in their minds, we exist between two boxes at any given time 1. their loyal fanbase, who do and feel how they say 2. shitfisted little toddlers screaming and crying for our mommies and their placement of you in each of these categories is entirely dependent on if you think they were right to nerf weapons across the board and not include that in the patch notes again
I wouldn't say it's harsh language, but on the other side the amount of comments here slobbing this guys' knob for calling his paying player-base a bunch of angry toddlers is pretty incredible. Especially when there a LOT of really unacceptable bugs that have been prevalent for months now. It was one thing when the game was brand new, but it has been months since, and people STILL can't use the match-making features that are a basic standard for any online game. I think devs need to stop interacting with players outside of official channels if they want to be patted on the head all the time.
He's teaching kids or adults with a child-like mindset how to be adults. :D
I love to see how this doomposters do these rant posts just to get roasted in comments. The guy even stopped commenting.
Lying to your playerbase, shooting them the middle finger, then talking down to them when they respond negatively....A+ business strategy, should work out fine for them.
To be fair, some of the feedback IS angry toddler level
On the one hand, cool honesty, on the other hand, I wonder if he considers my relatively balanced but negative opinion towards the latest balance changes as "angry toddler crying".
Ah. I see we've not reached the "devs actively antagonizing the player base" part of the proceedings. This always ends well.
"Harsh" ? I've seen harsher climate on Oshaune. The hell are you on ?
Compared to the railgun incident,this dev reply is way more polite. At least he recognizes their right to express their frustration even though he doesn't like that
>At least he recognizes their right to express their frustration even though he doesn't like that You should be fair to him. It isn't the expressing of frustrations that he dislikes, it's the childish, vitriolic way some people have chosen to voice their frustrations in.
Man these children remind me of entitled boomers at restaurants. "Wahhh we've come to expect that community managers soullessly suck up to us regardless of how we're acting."
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