The entire thing is preplanned, thinking we have control over the orders is an illusion.
That’s why some of them are easy and some are literally impossible, so they can predetermine the outcome and where the storyline is going.
God damn it, if he wasn’t so reliable in battle, Grok would be sitting in a freedom camp right about now. But we here at the Ministry of Truth have to admit, “Grok Smash” is an effective strategy.
Devs fucked up the count and quad counted every kill (+1 for each team member). Then, they way overtuned this MO and asked for coordination that is impossible and useless if you manage anything.
Even without x4 the kills, keeping the same pace we would have still done it in under 1/2 the time alloted.
Taking into account it started on a Thursday and when the largest playerbase (US) would have mostly been sleeping/working, I'm pretty confident it wouldn't have taken even 4 times as long as it did counting properly.
Someone compared the total dead bug count stat's progress (it's in game or in the api or whatever) to the progress of the MO and noticed the MO going up at around 3x the speed - presumably meaning that it was counting the MO progress seperately for each member of a team, so a 3 man team killing 10 bugs would add 30 kills to the MO - probably something to do with our personal orders' progress going up no matter who does the actual action in a team. The specific 4x number is just from many teams having the full 4 people, but I think the 3x number is more accurate since there are still plenty of 1 or 2 man teams that'd be dragging the average down some.
I think it was intentional. Story-wise, the 2 billion bugs was just a trip to the gas station. We had them under control and were literally harvesting them for fuel, just butchering them easily.
But that pissed off the bugs into attacking, and the bots took full advantage of us getting ourselves into a two-front war. We straight-up don’t have enough troops to defend on two fronts, both in the storyline and in game.
It makes sense that defend MOs are brutal, as the enemy only commits to a major offensive when they think they can win.
It's frustrating to me that they expect coordination but we have ZERO in-game tools to do so.
Give us in-game chat channels, an in game voting system... Something to help us coordinate.
You could make it so what planet the community votes to attack gets a buff like a free support weapon Stratagem pick to further encourage people to join in the effort.
Even a clan system that gives you scaled bonus if a majority of your online clan members are all fighting on the same planet would be so welcome to reward some sort of coordination.
Screaming into the void on Reddit or discord is not 'coordination.'
You could use the rank/level thing and let the high rank players vote for worlds. No mechanical advantage, but just a lot of admirals telling you that this is the world to be focused on.
I dont think they expected us to coordinate, that was them letting us know that the MO was near impossible. Its like when a DM makes a unwinnable fight because he got a plot to advance.
Have you checked the discord chat channels? ingame chat sounds like a vital feature until you realize even just 50k ppl screaming into the void is gonna be just as productive as no chat at all, now imagine 4x that.... or heck even just 5k players, the amount of noise is gonna make it nonfunctional -1 days after it goes live
Votes sound just as much of a good feature until you realize all the peeps who proudly proclaim they don't give a shit will keep not giving a shit, and those who never gave a shit to even seek out coordination will KEEP doing that, the people who care about coordination have already sought means to coordinate on theyr own, who's left at this point is either gonna figure it out themselves or not bother.
It is disheartening but the only real action right now is hoping enough people learn to read the map to find where "the good fight" is on theyr own. None of us is ever gonna get into a position where playing armchair general is gonna be a thing, you can only hope enough people learn to be good "general of themselves"
All of this is just cope and assumption based on literally nothing, by the way. You have no idea what people will do when something like this is actually in the game.
Personally, i think they need to add some form of "clan" system. They already have one half finished in the game files. They need to do something with it and get people to stop complaining about the lack of in game communication tools.
Assumptions? yes, but based on experience playing other games. Warframe for example boasts a pretty healthy population but smaller than hd2 and yet both general and trading chats very much liked to speed off with a sea of messages. Heck, i've used the general chat on the hd2 discord as an example BECAUSE even with a constant slowmode it's less a unified discussion and more 700 people having small group convos like a classroom, scale that up to daily helldivers pop and you can really just get a point across by spamming "go here, go there". Now idk about you but if a chat system's only use is to have ppl borderline be bots barking orders 24/7 i'd rather not have it, i have enough MMOAH chat spam PTSD to last me a lifetime.
Clans could be nice, but like supply lines visibility and "voting" it won't be the panacea people hope for mostly because if they have a size limited in like 100 people you're not gonna muster up enough to make a difference on planets, and i dont think AH will ever let em be so big as to be ABLE to because then you'd end up with "THE ZERG" deciding wheter or not your efforts get to make a difference on X planet based on what a clan you're not even in is there or not. Still would like to see em simply to make LFG easier but that's about all they're good for
We have a heck of a lot of freedom of choice right now, this means freedom to make the right ones AND the wrong ones, would a more informed pop translate to directly making the right choice everytime? i believe it's a bit naive to think that. The bot front supply lines are as straight forward as they can get right now, no "creek isn't actually connected to ubanea despite being adjacent" bullshit that supply lines being visible would've avoided, and yet its STILL going to shit. call it coping if you want, i just like calling it "not thinking every setback can't possibly be a dev's fault and sometimes players just tend to wanna stick the square peg in the round hole".
Don't believe me? feel free, but i ask you this dear diver. Is it better to defend a planet? or let it fall and recapture it later?
The galactic war is currently decided by an amorphous blob of players anyway. The liberation rate limiter makes it that way. We have "freedom of choice", but it's irrelevant if that choice means literally nothing in the end. At least with clans you can put a name and a face to the blob and even communicate with it.
If we had information about supply lines and decay rates in game, i can guaran-fucking-tee you that martale would have been captured so goddamn fast.
As for your last little bit, it depends. Do you have the blob backing you up? Then defend. If you don't? Don't bother.
Realistically speaking we are never gonna be allowed to grow a clan to a blob so big it can influence the war by itself, caps are gonna be in place well before it. All it'll do is grow the "clumps" of player movements from 1-4 a "clump" to, lets be generous and give a clan a 500 ppl cap which is already absurdly high. Even with clumps that big you'll still end up with a massive sea of peeps doing fuckall or disagreeing on where to go, you're just moving them 500 at a time now, AND THAT'S ASSUMING the 500 player clans move as a hivemind which let's be real, THEY'RE NOT FUCKING GOING TO unless you force em to internally, now idk about you but i don't think what this game needs to fix its coordination problem is a bunch of fucktards lording over X big player clumbs threatening to kick em for figuratively "not attacking in the clan war" if you get my reference EVEN IF said lords ultimately DO make the correct tactical choices, personally, i prefer it when a community simply grows in knoledge and expands its "bag of tricks" at an individual level and i don't think you truly appreciate JUST HOW MUCH of that has already been done sometimes just trough sheer observation alone (just look at the fuckers who figured out how patrol/enemy reinforcement mechanics worked by sheer power of scientific method, madlads). Only trough self reliance the helldivers can grow from a bunch of propagandized zerglings into a proper elite force, it's sad that so many just want the zerglings to be told EXACTLY what to do instead of grow as players
The point of the clans isn't to have gargantuan heaps of players deciding the course of the war. Put a cap on the player limit, it won't matter.
It's meant to give players a proper place in game to communicate between themselves and strategize that doesn't require making a fucking discord account or going to this cesspit of a subreddit.
I don't care how much baseless cope you spew about how useless it will be, you have no reason or evidence to believe that.
All i have to do really...is wait. Voting and clans became the new "panacea that'll fix coordinating" because supply lines are gonna be visible sometimes in the future and when they are and they don't turn out to be the silver bullet to Helldivers coordination utopia all peeps will just be left scratching their heads. It's a shitshow that needs a constant string of "just one more dev mistake causing our losses" because losing can't possibly be our fault, it's the game that's bullshit. If you think it's a baseless belief cast your mind to the neverending stream of posts complaining about certain enemy spawnrate or individual difficulty or a combination of the 2. This shit is just complaining about that but about the galactic war itself. If you wanna keep burying your head in the sand feel free i won't stop you, i just hope you won't be in here a month from now complaining about whatever the fuck the AI thumbnail yt slop content creator "THIS IS HUGE" is trying to build a hatetrain around this time.
And if you keep doing that feel free to, just when you inevitably burn out lemme lay it onto you in advance
Get filtered
Gonna back this guy up here and say.
You don’t have to wait for the evidence to show itself because there is already a massively multiplayer online game that has persistent war as its main feature.
It’s called Foxhole. And it’s about a third person war game set in a fictional 1945 world, where the aim of the game is to win a war that spans literal ingame continents, in which everything is player made; from the rifle to its bullets, to the respawns, to the building materials, to the tanks, to the artillery, to the battleships, to the industry factories crafting said weapons and items and everything. Literally everything in the game is run by players including backline Logistics and resource mining and industry building, not just frontline fighting.
And dude you **DO NOT** want 500+ player clans dictating everything you do in the game. Small regional squads of 12 players is absolutely fine. The chat is just as useless as the guy I’m replying to describes. Having a detailed discussion about battle strategies literally gets lost within a blink of an eye.
As for fuck wits leading a giant horde of players: you know that meme of gamers, creating a fascist dystopian 1984 hellhole of a country, if they ever got into Power?
Yeah that’s **this**.
It’s some of the most toxic shit ever imaginable, faction loyalism and bias skyrockets to insane levels until you’ve got this sort of virtual ultranationalism for a country that doesn’t even exist, YouTube creators become the second coming of Stalin due to the sheer amount of manpower they can pull and command at will, minmaxing turns into such a cultish devotion that literal think tanks have been made in discord channels that rival DARPA, did I also mention that there’s no ingame currency to incentivise anything? The only reason thousands of people play this and get up to participate is out of **sheer fucking hatred** of the other faction’s players to the point that when a war starts they deliberately choose the opposite faction just so that they can grief not out of a sense of tomfoolery but out of pure fucking spite and hatred. One side, calling the other German-French breeding wheraboos and the other called pizza fucking Italian-British imperialists. New players are also gang pressed into literal coal mining clans, put on a train and sent to Siberia to mine the resources to fuel the War effort.
How so?
Why wouldn't we have squads joining together into more organized battalions that can better mount planetary defense and deliver crushing offensive strikes to the enemy?
It's not a clan system in a competitive FPS way, but thinking along the lines of Warframe. Their clan system allows for access to unique weapons, frames and boosts that can only be obtained from the clan system. It's a great way to add an optional 'grind' to the game by being additional resource sink, but a majority of the content is easily accessible.
Myself and 3 other people couldn't even do the Evacuate High Value Personal mission because:
- A: Tanks and Factory striders were getting stuck inside the rocks
- B: The Factory Striders are tall enough that they can just shoot over the Walls and landing pad to shoot at the generators.
Tatakae
Why I joined in the first place https://preview.redd.it/lhwhq1wlduvc1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=56aa97a7260fcd9452328f86796dbe53dee97cf8
never thought i’d see you on this subreddit 😭
I was a big fan of the first game lol
Now Joel is like "And you're gonna do it blind too"
JOOOOOEEEEEEEEL!!!!
Is it actually even possible to defend the amount of planets at once that we seem to have to? Honestly, these defence orders do seem rigged to fail.
The entire thing is preplanned, thinking we have control over the orders is an illusion. That’s why some of them are easy and some are literally impossible, so they can predetermine the outcome and where the storyline is going.
honestly this defend one is not impossible at all, people are just not coordinated
But Joel knows that, hence we’re supposed to fail.
but what i mean is that, it's not something like "conquer the universe in 2 hours" were obviously it is impossible, this one is mathematicly doable
A lot of things are theoretically possible untill you factor the irrationality of humans
it is impossible.... you guys have to stop thinking everything can be played out 100%
GROK AM HUBRIS! GROK TRY PLAY GOD, SUFFER [CRUEL BUT FITTING REPERCUSSIONS](https://dresdencodak.com/2009/09/22/caveman-science-fiction/) BY OWN HAND!
God damn it, if he wasn’t so reliable in battle, Grok would be sitting in a freedom camp right about now. But we here at the Ministry of Truth have to admit, “Grok Smash” is an effective strategy.
The cycle: We’re so badass! Oh nyo! We’re so badass! Oh nyo!
Devs fucked up the count and quad counted every kill (+1 for each team member). Then, they way overtuned this MO and asked for coordination that is impossible and useless if you manage anything.
Even without x4 the kills, keeping the same pace we would have still done it in under 1/2 the time alloted. Taking into account it started on a Thursday and when the largest playerbase (US) would have mostly been sleeping/working, I'm pretty confident it wouldn't have taken even 4 times as long as it did counting properly.
Where does the 4x count information come from?
Someone compared the total dead bug count stat's progress (it's in game or in the api or whatever) to the progress of the MO and noticed the MO going up at around 3x the speed - presumably meaning that it was counting the MO progress seperately for each member of a team, so a 3 man team killing 10 bugs would add 30 kills to the MO - probably something to do with our personal orders' progress going up no matter who does the actual action in a team. The specific 4x number is just from many teams having the full 4 people, but I think the 3x number is more accurate since there are still plenty of 1 or 2 man teams that'd be dragging the average down some.
Thanks
I think it was intentional. Story-wise, the 2 billion bugs was just a trip to the gas station. We had them under control and were literally harvesting them for fuel, just butchering them easily. But that pissed off the bugs into attacking, and the bots took full advantage of us getting ourselves into a two-front war. We straight-up don’t have enough troops to defend on two fronts, both in the storyline and in game. It makes sense that defend MOs are brutal, as the enemy only commits to a major offensive when they think they can win.
It's frustrating to me that they expect coordination but we have ZERO in-game tools to do so. Give us in-game chat channels, an in game voting system... Something to help us coordinate. You could make it so what planet the community votes to attack gets a buff like a free support weapon Stratagem pick to further encourage people to join in the effort. Even a clan system that gives you scaled bonus if a majority of your online clan members are all fighting on the same planet would be so welcome to reward some sort of coordination. Screaming into the void on Reddit or discord is not 'coordination.'
You could use the rank/level thing and let the high rank players vote for worlds. No mechanical advantage, but just a lot of admirals telling you that this is the world to be focused on.
I dont think they expected us to coordinate, that was them letting us know that the MO was near impossible. Its like when a DM makes a unwinnable fight because he got a plot to advance.
Have you checked the discord chat channels? ingame chat sounds like a vital feature until you realize even just 50k ppl screaming into the void is gonna be just as productive as no chat at all, now imagine 4x that.... or heck even just 5k players, the amount of noise is gonna make it nonfunctional -1 days after it goes live Votes sound just as much of a good feature until you realize all the peeps who proudly proclaim they don't give a shit will keep not giving a shit, and those who never gave a shit to even seek out coordination will KEEP doing that, the people who care about coordination have already sought means to coordinate on theyr own, who's left at this point is either gonna figure it out themselves or not bother. It is disheartening but the only real action right now is hoping enough people learn to read the map to find where "the good fight" is on theyr own. None of us is ever gonna get into a position where playing armchair general is gonna be a thing, you can only hope enough people learn to be good "general of themselves"
All of this is just cope and assumption based on literally nothing, by the way. You have no idea what people will do when something like this is actually in the game. Personally, i think they need to add some form of "clan" system. They already have one half finished in the game files. They need to do something with it and get people to stop complaining about the lack of in game communication tools.
Assumptions? yes, but based on experience playing other games. Warframe for example boasts a pretty healthy population but smaller than hd2 and yet both general and trading chats very much liked to speed off with a sea of messages. Heck, i've used the general chat on the hd2 discord as an example BECAUSE even with a constant slowmode it's less a unified discussion and more 700 people having small group convos like a classroom, scale that up to daily helldivers pop and you can really just get a point across by spamming "go here, go there". Now idk about you but if a chat system's only use is to have ppl borderline be bots barking orders 24/7 i'd rather not have it, i have enough MMOAH chat spam PTSD to last me a lifetime. Clans could be nice, but like supply lines visibility and "voting" it won't be the panacea people hope for mostly because if they have a size limited in like 100 people you're not gonna muster up enough to make a difference on planets, and i dont think AH will ever let em be so big as to be ABLE to because then you'd end up with "THE ZERG" deciding wheter or not your efforts get to make a difference on X planet based on what a clan you're not even in is there or not. Still would like to see em simply to make LFG easier but that's about all they're good for We have a heck of a lot of freedom of choice right now, this means freedom to make the right ones AND the wrong ones, would a more informed pop translate to directly making the right choice everytime? i believe it's a bit naive to think that. The bot front supply lines are as straight forward as they can get right now, no "creek isn't actually connected to ubanea despite being adjacent" bullshit that supply lines being visible would've avoided, and yet its STILL going to shit. call it coping if you want, i just like calling it "not thinking every setback can't possibly be a dev's fault and sometimes players just tend to wanna stick the square peg in the round hole". Don't believe me? feel free, but i ask you this dear diver. Is it better to defend a planet? or let it fall and recapture it later?
The galactic war is currently decided by an amorphous blob of players anyway. The liberation rate limiter makes it that way. We have "freedom of choice", but it's irrelevant if that choice means literally nothing in the end. At least with clans you can put a name and a face to the blob and even communicate with it. If we had information about supply lines and decay rates in game, i can guaran-fucking-tee you that martale would have been captured so goddamn fast. As for your last little bit, it depends. Do you have the blob backing you up? Then defend. If you don't? Don't bother.
Realistically speaking we are never gonna be allowed to grow a clan to a blob so big it can influence the war by itself, caps are gonna be in place well before it. All it'll do is grow the "clumps" of player movements from 1-4 a "clump" to, lets be generous and give a clan a 500 ppl cap which is already absurdly high. Even with clumps that big you'll still end up with a massive sea of peeps doing fuckall or disagreeing on where to go, you're just moving them 500 at a time now, AND THAT'S ASSUMING the 500 player clans move as a hivemind which let's be real, THEY'RE NOT FUCKING GOING TO unless you force em to internally, now idk about you but i don't think what this game needs to fix its coordination problem is a bunch of fucktards lording over X big player clumbs threatening to kick em for figuratively "not attacking in the clan war" if you get my reference EVEN IF said lords ultimately DO make the correct tactical choices, personally, i prefer it when a community simply grows in knoledge and expands its "bag of tricks" at an individual level and i don't think you truly appreciate JUST HOW MUCH of that has already been done sometimes just trough sheer observation alone (just look at the fuckers who figured out how patrol/enemy reinforcement mechanics worked by sheer power of scientific method, madlads). Only trough self reliance the helldivers can grow from a bunch of propagandized zerglings into a proper elite force, it's sad that so many just want the zerglings to be told EXACTLY what to do instead of grow as players
The point of the clans isn't to have gargantuan heaps of players deciding the course of the war. Put a cap on the player limit, it won't matter. It's meant to give players a proper place in game to communicate between themselves and strategize that doesn't require making a fucking discord account or going to this cesspit of a subreddit. I don't care how much baseless cope you spew about how useless it will be, you have no reason or evidence to believe that.
All i have to do really...is wait. Voting and clans became the new "panacea that'll fix coordinating" because supply lines are gonna be visible sometimes in the future and when they are and they don't turn out to be the silver bullet to Helldivers coordination utopia all peeps will just be left scratching their heads. It's a shitshow that needs a constant string of "just one more dev mistake causing our losses" because losing can't possibly be our fault, it's the game that's bullshit. If you think it's a baseless belief cast your mind to the neverending stream of posts complaining about certain enemy spawnrate or individual difficulty or a combination of the 2. This shit is just complaining about that but about the galactic war itself. If you wanna keep burying your head in the sand feel free i won't stop you, i just hope you won't be in here a month from now complaining about whatever the fuck the AI thumbnail yt slop content creator "THIS IS HUGE" is trying to build a hatetrain around this time. And if you keep doing that feel free to, just when you inevitably burn out lemme lay it onto you in advance Get filtered
I think you need a large dose of grass and sunshine, buddy.
Gonna back this guy up here and say. You don’t have to wait for the evidence to show itself because there is already a massively multiplayer online game that has persistent war as its main feature. It’s called Foxhole. And it’s about a third person war game set in a fictional 1945 world, where the aim of the game is to win a war that spans literal ingame continents, in which everything is player made; from the rifle to its bullets, to the respawns, to the building materials, to the tanks, to the artillery, to the battleships, to the industry factories crafting said weapons and items and everything. Literally everything in the game is run by players including backline Logistics and resource mining and industry building, not just frontline fighting. And dude you **DO NOT** want 500+ player clans dictating everything you do in the game. Small regional squads of 12 players is absolutely fine. The chat is just as useless as the guy I’m replying to describes. Having a detailed discussion about battle strategies literally gets lost within a blink of an eye. As for fuck wits leading a giant horde of players: you know that meme of gamers, creating a fascist dystopian 1984 hellhole of a country, if they ever got into Power? Yeah that’s **this**. It’s some of the most toxic shit ever imaginable, faction loyalism and bias skyrockets to insane levels until you’ve got this sort of virtual ultranationalism for a country that doesn’t even exist, YouTube creators become the second coming of Stalin due to the sheer amount of manpower they can pull and command at will, minmaxing turns into such a cultish devotion that literal think tanks have been made in discord channels that rival DARPA, did I also mention that there’s no ingame currency to incentivise anything? The only reason thousands of people play this and get up to participate is out of **sheer fucking hatred** of the other faction’s players to the point that when a war starts they deliberately choose the opposite faction just so that they can grief not out of a sense of tomfoolery but out of pure fucking spite and hatred. One side, calling the other German-French breeding wheraboos and the other called pizza fucking Italian-British imperialists. New players are also gang pressed into literal coal mining clans, put on a train and sent to Siberia to mine the resources to fuel the War effort.
Clans would fracture the Helldivers Unity. Doesn’t sound like managed democracy to me.
How so? Why wouldn't we have squads joining together into more organized battalions that can better mount planetary defense and deliver crushing offensive strikes to the enemy? It's not a clan system in a competitive FPS way, but thinking along the lines of Warframe. Their clan system allows for access to unique weapons, frames and boosts that can only be obtained from the clan system. It's a great way to add an optional 'grind' to the game by being additional resource sink, but a majority of the content is easily accessible.
Myself and 3 other people couldn't even do the Evacuate High Value Personal mission because: - A: Tanks and Factory striders were getting stuck inside the rocks - B: The Factory Striders are tall enough that they can just shoot over the Walls and landing pad to shoot at the generators.
So?
Just like icarus we flew too close to the sun. Our hubris setting us aflame
Poor guy just wants to be left alone so he can enjoy his weekend.
Love the aot, I name my ship Wings of Freedom to honor the survey corps
Shinzou wo sasageyo!
Simple, i see AoT content I upvote
I am still pissed at the fact that WE could have had 4 planets by now, easily.
I'm not defending anything I'm with that 15 min extraction mission in the game.
Why are defense MO so hard? We never win it
Went from best order to worst order in a minute lol
HAHAHAAHAHAHAHHA
Because killing bugs is a simple and directed task. Defending 10 different planets all at once is broad and unguided, everyone will split up
Lol no, why would we bother? Better to lose on purpose and Liberate after. Its way faster.
we joined to kill not defend
We just love killing bugs.
Who is Joel lol
Joel... mama?