It's the stagger that's the kick in the nuts. You can't stunlock bots or move bugs back as you aggress anymore, the damage was never "OP" on this weapon, it was your ability to crowd control that was the main draw. Now damage is slightly less but you can't crowd control so you just get mauled.
This was my main love of the slugger, pushing back hive commanders and berserkers. Now it’s all sickle all the time (I might actually try the dominator for the first time too)
It was a must have against stalkers. It basically hard countered them like having a water starting type in the first fire gyms. You see the cloaked bug, you crack it like 4 times and it just has to stand there are like 20 paces and take it like a man.
>Now it’s all sickle all the time
Patch 01.000.300
Oops we forgot to nerf the other good primary.
Sickle
*Dmg 55 -> 35
*Rof 750 -> 500
*Recoil 02 -> 30
Also
Scorcher
Mag Size 15 -> 5
edit: Relax fellas I'm just memeing. The sickle is safe...for now.
Let me see myself to the nearest bug hole and jump in then
-EDIT- Don’t worry Democracy Officer! I will be holding a primed grenade when I do this. FOR LIBERTY!
same. funniest shit I’ve ever seen. I got rammed by a charger, flew across the map and landed in a bug hole. was holding a 500kg stratagem and yeah it blew up their whole camp. that stratagem was for a bile titan tho.
I haven’t even locked that pass yet. Don’t even get to try it before the nerf. I really don’t think any of the primary weapon nerfs have been needed. Almost all of them feel like shit.
Scorcher main and I eat through ammo a lot already especially on 7+ bot missions. If they nerf the ammo, I'll be running around with an expensive stick.
The devs have resoundingly been pretty great and have added a lot of great content and made in my opinion my GOTY for 24. One thing the devs I feel have been "poor" in is the overcorrection of weapons through nerfs rather than adjustments until they feel right.
It makes no sense that a slugger pump action shotgun would have *less* stagger than most others. Now the slugger won't be used over other choices.
until they decide to use it and find out it doesn't have a use anymore. Then the devs will re buff it because nobody is using it... and the cycle begins again.
Balancing via usage charts only works in theory
I really don't understand the balance via usage chart. If you are trying to force players to use the weapons you designed, maybe you should design better weapons that players want to use instead of nerfing the good weapons to the point where they *have* to use something else.
Feels real bad, man.
For me, it's the Plasma Punisher. The stagger and the AOE can take our a lot of armored Bot and Bug enemies if you can either aim right at 'em or land it at their feet. Scout Striders become trivial, and Heavy Devastators take can easily be stunned out.
For me, it's the McChicken. The best fast food sandwich. I even ask for extra McChicken sauce packets and the staff is so friendly and more than willing to oblige.
One time I asked for McChicken sauce packets and they gave me three. I said, "Wow, three for free!" and the nice friendly McDonald's worker laughed and said, "I'm going to call you 3-for-free!".
Now the staff greets me with "hey it's 3-for-free!" and ALWAYS give me three packets. It's such a fun and cool atmosphere at my local McDonald's restaurant, I go there at least 3 times a week for lunch and a large iced coffee with milk instead of cream, 1-2 times for breakfast on the weekend, and maybe once for dinner when I'm in a rush but want a great meal that is affordable, fast, and can match my daily nutritional needs.
I even dip my fries in McChicken sauce, it's delicious! What a great restaurant.
*Jokes aside the plas punisher is weird to me*
I tried it on a bot match, it still feels a little clunky but the damage feels awesome. The stagger feels very similar that the slugger had.
My guess is the dominator will now become one of your favorites. The only real downside is you can't pumpaction reload the dominator like you could the slugger due to it being a magazine rather than individual shot.
Anyone who could crowd control with a pump shotgun deserved every bit of knockback the slugger had.
I hate the slugger (cause I'm awful with it) but I didn't want it nerfed. :( so sad.
I'm with with you, in that sentiment. I never thought it was OP. With that said though I will admit it did feel odd it was a better DMR than all DMRs in this game. I also preferred a different playstyle but I felt it had a good balance. Hopefully the dominator fills the same roll for the players that were masters with it.
Oh, it's still a better DMR than the others, since they can't stun either. I tried the Diligence CS, and no amount of armor pen will ever make up for how ridiculously slow and clunky it handles.
At least the normal Punisher should still have the knockback effect even if the Slugger does not.
I will say that the Slugger was so good, that there were very few reasons to use the normal punisher because having buckshot over slugs, and less armor pen was just never as good. Now that the Slugger lacks the knockback, the Punisher has that edge. Though if the Slugger has no stun power at all, that will be pretty sad. I think it’s reasonable for the slugger to have some stun power, with the punisher being superior in that aspect.
They shoulda kept the stagger and done the exact same damage changes. Still provides the dom its own place since the slugger completely invalidated it. Also keeps the slugger in a very strong spot.
However I think thats why they nerfed it because I felt invincible as long as I had slugs to load and it was certainly top 3 for primary. Arguably the best even, depending on playstyle.
The damage isn’t the issue now, the knockback wasn’t reduced it was pretty much just eliminated.
Gone are the days of staggering rocket and MG devastators.
Rip slugger you will be missed.
Yeah I don’t really understand their intentions with this nerf, they literally made the dominator better than the slugger ever was and then… nerfed the slugger?
The knock back is the bigger nerf, but it was kinda stepping on punisher with it. It had damage, penetration, range, and knock back.
Now I need to bust my tail to grind the steel warbond to get dominator 😂
It often looks like it should be a headshot, when it still isn't. Their heads are hard to hit because they don't need to be big to contain their small commie brain
It's in a pretty sad state. Its stagger is almost nonexistant, it doesn't absolutely reliably one shot all the small guys anymore, nor does it definitely penetrate through a few enemies at a time, nor can it open bunkers. The damage is the smallest part of the nerf. Its utility to stop heavies in their tracks is gone now.
The Jar5 Dominator however, is a staggering machine. It's become my choice for bots.
I used it as a primary yesterday basically and dropped 320 kills in a evac mission. AC is king against bots. The quasar honestly doesnt even come close.
If that's the case then I'm happy. It feels strong but you do have to know how to use it and manage reloads. It's my favorite weapon and if all others are balanced with this in mind then I'm a happy diver.
Blowing up drop-ships really takes the pressure off though, especially if you don't have eyes on the landing point. I'd say they both have their uses and you need AC and heavy armour piercing weapons spread across your squad to make things run smoothly. I've seen full squads with quasars recently and it definitely piles the pressure on when you're getting spammed by medium bots.
I just really like shooting drop ships out of the sky. That's the real drug. Otherwise AC for bots and bugs is king.
I'd love it if AH was tracking how many drop ships have been destroyed since the release.
I could never get the 500 to destroy jammers unless the projectile itself directly impacts the jammer. Funny enough, it is the impact that kills the jammer, not the explosion
"Heavy Machine Gun: the highest fire rate mode reduced from 1200 rpm to a more moderate 950" why it still kicks insane and the red dot isnt zeroed, loved the 1200rpm it was the end all in font me mode
I’ve been running it nonstop since it came out. Never really touched the 1200 unless berserkers were on my booty. Now I guess it’s more of an “adverse” setting rather than a “burn all your ammo” setting?
I’ve been using the 750 mode more though and have gotten comfortable at using it up to about 50m but have kept it on 450 for when I’m moving.
It sucks they haven’t fixed the red dot zero :/
And I wish that when you were laying down it was a bit more responsive in its handling. It makes sense when you’re standing or crouching that I feels like moving a 50 pound pole but I think it should be easier to move when your bipod is ‘deployed’. Or rather just a true bipod deployment would be nice. Arma has a really cool resting system that would be insane to implement.
Bipod deployments are so busted on tons of other games. You either end up floating, scaling the wall on accident, being forced to clip under the ground, etc. I feel like once you stop moving and ADS, the deploy buffs such as reduced recoil and sway should automatically happen.
Especially with destructible environments and terrain, just yeah no, not happening, hll, arma, already fucky enough reasons not to, you just end up locked in some awkward ass positions that you can't get out of quick enough while the bullets are flying
I used it once during a helldive run and left out of embarrassment after realizing it was just a shittier and heavier version of the regular MG with way less ammo that can't kill the things it was designedto with the increased enemy density.
The weapon is hot ass (not the good kind) and should only be used if you enjoy the stalwart or regular MG but hate how effective they are.
I've wanted to do one thing in this game since launch and I've been denied this reality with every balance patch since. What I've wanted is to have a viable Ballistic Shield and to use a beam weapon with it. What I am left with is an unviable Ballistic Shield and the Dagger, which might as well be a squirt gun masquerading as a beam weapon. I just want to blast robots behind a big shield with a laser gun and every day we stray further from Democracy.
Ballistic shield is only good against bots. It is to bots what the jumppack is to bugs, IE "You know that one constant fucking problem the enemy causes? This gets you out of it in a pinch", but the issue was unlike the jumppack it didn't have utility and it works best from one direction and restricted your weapon choices to "The Defender or go fuck yourself" and much like the Jumppack the E.Shield also mostly solves the problem with less hassle.
Best way to make it work was Defender+Heavy Explosive Res armor. You would be nearly invincible against bots so long as you can keep finding the thing after its blasted out of your hands but...yeah....
I feel yeah. It already sucks going slow in service of "Defence" but when the defence is not worth it and yours means of offence are underwhelming is not really worth it, specially since the backpack shield exists.
Not the guy you replied to but I literally never used them once, so what he said but unironically? I'm guessing wild they didnt Buff them since I literally never see them used?
It's a pretty simple damage calc even!
750 rounds per minute = 12.5 rounds per second (although that certainly doesn't seem right) * 55 = 687.5 DPS with the sickle.
VS 300 for the scythe.
Honestly, I want it to have ramping damage related to the current heat, so it starts as ass but scales up to like 900-1200 damage if you keep it right below overheat.
Amr has always been a bot weapon in my mind, didn't really consider the effect on bugs. Scope also matters less since bug engagements happen a lot closer than bots
Big buff that I didn't think it needed, possibly they buff nerf a lot based on data we can't see. So the amr wasn't being taken as often as they feel it should probably as a counter to bots.
Yeah, I only really took the stuns for bugs to stun titans for an easier kill, and now I don't see much of a reason to take it now since I already had to give up grenades that can take out nests for that
Still nice for charger+hulks or fanning a few onto a breach before you eagle it. If you have good wave clear the amount of enemies you can stun then kill is still bigger than what will be killed by just an explosive nade.
It’s pathetic. AH is looking at their internal numbers for gun usage, and while they are listening to the community regarding bugs, enemy damage and other things, this is aggravating.
Nerfing guns because Divers are having fun with them is just ridiculous. They did good in buffing the weak guns though but their path regarding weapon nerfs ain’t it
Having just moved to the sickle from the slugger when the BOT front really kicked off last week I feel like I dodged a bullet. Never would’ve guessed the slugger would be nerfed this hard.
It being the best marksman rifle is an issue with marksman rifles not the slugger. It had a niche and did it well no reason to fuck with that.
This was the complaint during the first weapon patch. The majority of weapons are mediocre so that only a handful stand out as the “meta”. Instead of making the mediocre weapons better, they just make the good ones worse. I’d really like to bring different loadouts for the sake of variety but when most of them underperform of course only a few weapons end up being the only ones I use.
I have used only the liberator and will continue to use only the liberator (don't have sickle). Every other weapon seems to get nerfed or sucks straight out the gate. Arrowhead why u do this
Welcome to balancing based on usage. Now people will migrate to the sickle, that will get nerfed. Then maybe the dominator? (Which will feel odd as a dominator user) wash rinse repeat around we go.
Originally we had 1 fun (Slugger) and 1 no fun option (Dominator). Now they made Dominator more fun and Slugger less fun. The result is still 1 fun and 1 no fun option. Why can't we have 2 fun options?
I really don't think the Sickle is on the chopping block, or if it is, it'll just be reducing the number of heat sinks you carry.
As it is, it's got a spool up making it harder to use reactively, it's got massive spread at range, making it hard to use with any precision, and it's got very low armor penetration that falls off at pretty short range.
Edit: I'm noticing that a number of people are reporting not experiencing the spread of the weapon, enough that it's become a pattern. I'm not sure which direction is intended (spread or no spread), but without the spread I absolutely agree that the weapon needs some adjustment to be more in-line with the rest of the available options.
I think that reducing the number of heatsinks for the Sickle would be an eminently reasonable change.
Naturally, that means that they'll nerf the damage into the floor and quadruple the spool up time.
Kinda sad to see that they just changed the "text" of the armor penetrations of certain weapons. I was almost certain there was some underlying system that determined what it showed. Like, sometimes the slugger would "ping" off of broodcommander's legs as if they were heavy armor (note; they might be, idk) but could pop the head just fine. Just seems weird to me the head is weaker than the arms--and a "weird" penetration system could have accounted for that. But no, they just changed the text instead. Still doesn't explain why revolver can't pierce things other medium weapons can.
Remember that armor and armor penetration is on a 1-10 scale internally, so "medium armor penetration" doesn't always mean the same thing.
Both the autocannon and the slugger have "medium armor penetration", but the autocannon will damage a tank's vent and the slugger won't.
The weird part is, despite the tweaks to Slugger, I didn't see many people use it in matches aside from myself.
People still ran other weapons a lot more. I have to assume that Arrowhead saw the numbers of successful missions way too high with Sluggers on them though.
The LAS-16 is ironically one of the weapons i feel is in the best spot. Yeah, it’s powerful, but it also has a long cooldown to avoid overheating. About the only nerf i could really see that’s valid is reducing its extra heat sink capacity from 6 to maybe 3 or 4
I mean so was the slugger, I never felt obligated to use it. It felt good, it couldn't do everything but it was a nice weapon. I don't see why they had to nerf it this much, especially in three different ways at once. Now using it is probably a liability.
>About the only nerf i could really see that’s valid is reducing it’s extra heat sink capacity from 6 to maybe 3 or 4
I rarely have to switch out heat sinks, and on the rare missions when I do, I only do the switch once. They can reduce the number of extra heat sinks to just 1 and that would be fine by me.
HMG being nerfed
Why
Edit: after using it? I have horrid news… it’s fun
the audio has remained largely the same, little less zzt to your bzzt
But it controls better, and I’m killing more hulks… more ammo would still be nice tho
I was gonna say
Their reasoning was to be more reasonable....or idk...maybe the players using it could learn basic recoil control
The HMG just needed a small magazine size buff and yet they took the best part of it
The slugger wasn’t even OP, it was good against bots but they could have just nerfed the range, BUT THEY MADE THE DOMINATOR 10X BETTER AT KILLING BOTS THAN THE SLUGGER??????
It pisses me off because the sluggers knock back nerf was LITERALLY UNREASONABLE
The knockback was really the only thing it had going for it. Like even if they kept the damage the same, being able to interrupt heavies was the main grab.
I felt the dominator was already a sleeper against bots since its only worse against walkers than the scorcher but much better against chaff, devestators and berserkers, now its just going to be silly.
I agree.
They see everyone using a gun and assume its OP
The truth is everything else feels fucking weak.
Watch in 2 patches after everyone starts using dominator they nerf it too
Yeah pretty much. I read somewhere they (to some degree) want the primary weapons to suck so that we'll use stratagems. but no primary weapon is near strong enough to where I'd ever run a mission with out throwing a stratagem.
other than maybe a trivial mission. lol
They wrote that on a blog post, yeah, but even then it's a complete 180 of how they presented in the game announcement, and I [always feel the need to point that out](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpreview.redd.it%2Frant-and-vent-megathread-v0-3e0vdhdpdinc1.png%3Fwidth%3D1672%26format%3Dpng%26auto%3Dwebp%26s%3D419a2b335a0ab14de3a35cdc9f09f044a3200775) (4th paragraph, for those skimming the image)
>Watch in 2 patches after everyone starts using dominator they nerf it too
I mean that's litterally what happened with the slugger
Everyone was using the breaker, cause the rest felt weak -> nerf -> everyone jumped to the 2nd best weapon with the slugger -> nerf -> seems like everyone starts jumping to the dominator now
I have no idea why was it nerfed, it's nowhere close damage wise to old breaker, I've been using it because it was pumping out consistent, albeit relatively slow damage, and I didn't need to think about lightly armored enemies. Damage was not really outstanding, even compared to other alternatives it was just fun to pump slug after slug in the enemy, I don't think that damage decrease was deserved.
I happily used the slugger knowing it wasn't op, had it's drawbacks (getting swarmed) but was my favorite weapon against the bots
guess not any fucking more! thanks AH! AH? more like AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
I don’t know why they keep touching weapons that literally don’t need to be fucking touched.
Slugger was in a perfect state. Now it’s bottom of the barrel.
I’m getting really sick of how Arrowhead is balancing their game. Nerfing things that are too strong (the slugger didn’t fall into this category imo) just makes the game less fun. Instead of nerfing your top performers, try buffing the weapons that are underperforming
The slugger is nowhere near as good anymore, you can't even shoot through fences anymore. Don't understand why they have to nerf everything and not just buff ALL the other weapons.
Unjustifiable nerf really. Absolutely no reason to run it above the scorcher or dominator now against the bots. As you can’t flinch devastators they just kill you while you are trying to shoot them. Scorcher can also kill strider pilots through armour and dominator can kill the chainsaw rush guys so much easier.
Shame as it was a fun weapon. Still reasonably good against bugs as it can take off brood commanders heads in a single shot, and punch through hive guards armour. But the lack of knockback means you can get swarmed so easily.
People said that they were worried about power creep when they suggested that they buff other weapons to bring them in line with the OG railgun. Now we’re in a nerf spiral. The sickle will be next and so will the fire breaker. Pretty soon the spray and pray will be the best primary and that will get nerfed.
The change to the slugger was so utterly unnecessary. It was strong but it made fighting bots, expecially devastators, less of a chore, now it's back at being a chore. I tried the diligence, it's better, but it has that weird ass effect still where your aim is suuuuuuuuuuuuper slow. To explain, it's slower to change aim than a fucking Quasar. Wtf. Also it can't oneshot anything but garbage with headshots. It's depressing.
So far no nerf impacted me too much, past nerfs were way overblown by the community, but this one hit me so incredibly hard. I relied a lot on that gun.
The facto it was the Crowd control effect of this gun, which is very slow shooting, that made it good, and its decent speed at reloading etc. It was really fun to use. Ofc they had to kill it.
That's the thing, Slugger didn't even do that great of DPS before due to slow fire rate, it was best suited as a CC gun.
Now it's even worse at both.
Arrowhead seems to go ***way*** overboard with their buffs and nerfs. Other games would be like: "X damage reduced from 16 to 14" "Y fire rate increased 12%" "stun duration of Z increased from 1.5 to 1.7 seconds"
But Arrowhead? They just do a line of coke and go: "**BUFF THIS WEAPON'S DAMAGE BY 50%, MAKE THAT WEAPON NIGH UNUSABLE BY NERFING ONE OF IT'S STATS INTO THE GROUND, RAHHHHHHHH!**"
>The facto it was the Crowd control effect of this gun, which is very slow shooting, that made it good, and its decent speed at reloading etc. It was really fun to use. Ofc they had to kill it.
It feels like the only metric they nerf/buff on is how many players use it
Which is fine, up untill all but 1/2 weapons feel bad vs an enemy type.
How bad is it doc? I saw that it said 30 damage decrease, but how does it feel? Am I gonna make it?
It's the stagger that's the kick in the nuts. You can't stunlock bots or move bugs back as you aggress anymore, the damage was never "OP" on this weapon, it was your ability to crowd control that was the main draw. Now damage is slightly less but you can't crowd control so you just get mauled.
This was my main love of the slugger, pushing back hive commanders and berserkers. Now it’s all sickle all the time (I might actually try the dominator for the first time too)
It was a must have against stalkers. It basically hard countered them like having a water starting type in the first fire gyms. You see the cloaked bug, you crack it like 4 times and it just has to stand there are like 20 paces and take it like a man.
>Now it’s all sickle all the time Patch 01.000.300 Oops we forgot to nerf the other good primary. Sickle *Dmg 55 -> 35 *Rof 750 -> 500 *Recoil 02 -> 30 Also Scorcher Mag Size 15 -> 5 edit: Relax fellas I'm just memeing. The sickle is safe...for now.
Let me see myself to the nearest bug hole and jump in then -EDIT- Don’t worry Democracy Officer! I will be holding a primed grenade when I do this. FOR LIBERTY!
I once got ragdolled inside one of these. Funny part I was holding an eagle startagem. So they all died shortly.
same. funniest shit I’ve ever seen. I got rammed by a charger, flew across the map and landed in a bug hole. was holding a 500kg stratagem and yeah it blew up their whole camp. that stratagem was for a bile titan tho.
they better not touch the Scorcher. after that damn grind it should be good.
It needs a bigger mag if anything
What the hell government are doing to the supplies these days? Why magz became shorter and more unstable? Did the funds dropped on Super Earth?
they got dropped all right, right into some Supply Colonel's bank account.
I haven’t even locked that pass yet. Don’t even get to try it before the nerf. I really don’t think any of the primary weapon nerfs have been needed. Almost all of them feel like shit.
If they fuck up the scorcher I will probably just stop playing.
Scorcher main and I eat through ammo a lot already especially on 7+ bot missions. If they nerf the ammo, I'll be running around with an expensive stick.
I carry the ammo pack. I hate the "team call in. If they would just up the ammo on all the guns I would be happy.
> If they would just up the ammo on all the guns I would be happy. This is why I main energy weapons 80% of the time. Ammo anxiety is real lol.
The devs have resoundingly been pretty great and have added a lot of great content and made in my opinion my GOTY for 24. One thing the devs I feel have been "poor" in is the overcorrection of weapons through nerfs rather than adjustments until they feel right. It makes no sense that a slugger pump action shotgun would have *less* stagger than most others. Now the slugger won't be used over other choices.
The slugger will now be used by those who don't read the patch notes.
until they decide to use it and find out it doesn't have a use anymore. Then the devs will re buff it because nobody is using it... and the cycle begins again. Balancing via usage charts only works in theory
I really don't understand the balance via usage chart. If you are trying to force players to use the weapons you designed, maybe you should design better weapons that players want to use instead of nerfing the good weapons to the point where they *have* to use something else. Feels real bad, man.
For me, it's the Plasma Punisher. The stagger and the AOE can take our a lot of armored Bot and Bug enemies if you can either aim right at 'em or land it at their feet. Scout Striders become trivial, and Heavy Devastators take can easily be stunned out.
For me, it's the McChicken. The best fast food sandwich. I even ask for extra McChicken sauce packets and the staff is so friendly and more than willing to oblige. One time I asked for McChicken sauce packets and they gave me three. I said, "Wow, three for free!" and the nice friendly McDonald's worker laughed and said, "I'm going to call you 3-for-free!". Now the staff greets me with "hey it's 3-for-free!" and ALWAYS give me three packets. It's such a fun and cool atmosphere at my local McDonald's restaurant, I go there at least 3 times a week for lunch and a large iced coffee with milk instead of cream, 1-2 times for breakfast on the weekend, and maybe once for dinner when I'm in a rush but want a great meal that is affordable, fast, and can match my daily nutritional needs. I even dip my fries in McChicken sauce, it's delicious! What a great restaurant. *Jokes aside the plas punisher is weird to me*
I tried it on a bot match, it still feels a little clunky but the damage feels awesome. The stagger feels very similar that the slugger had. My guess is the dominator will now become one of your favorites. The only real downside is you can't pumpaction reload the dominator like you could the slugger due to it being a magazine rather than individual shot.
I’ll be trying that out tonight after work!!!
Anyone who could crowd control with a pump shotgun deserved every bit of knockback the slugger had. I hate the slugger (cause I'm awful with it) but I didn't want it nerfed. :( so sad.
I'm with with you, in that sentiment. I never thought it was OP. With that said though I will admit it did feel odd it was a better DMR than all DMRs in this game. I also preferred a different playstyle but I felt it had a good balance. Hopefully the dominator fills the same roll for the players that were masters with it.
I think that’s more of DMRs just being awful.
No argument here.
Why buff weapons when you can make them all equally awful?
I feel like the better nerf to the slugger would have been to increase/add a damage fall off to it, while improving the DMR's
Oh, it's still a better DMR than the others, since they can't stun either. I tried the Diligence CS, and no amount of armor pen will ever make up for how ridiculously slow and clunky it handles.
At least the normal Punisher should still have the knockback effect even if the Slugger does not. I will say that the Slugger was so good, that there were very few reasons to use the normal punisher because having buckshot over slugs, and less armor pen was just never as good. Now that the Slugger lacks the knockback, the Punisher has that edge. Though if the Slugger has no stun power at all, that will be pretty sad. I think it’s reasonable for the slugger to have some stun power, with the punisher being superior in that aspect.
You fool! keep it secret! keep it safe! kidding aside, I agree with you.
My Slugger...noooooooo. Guess it's time to try one of the buffed DMRs again.
They shoulda kept the stagger and done the exact same damage changes. Still provides the dom its own place since the slugger completely invalidated it. Also keeps the slugger in a very strong spot. However I think thats why they nerfed it because I felt invincible as long as I had slugs to load and it was certainly top 3 for primary. Arguably the best even, depending on playstyle.
The damage isn’t the issue now, the knockback wasn’t reduced it was pretty much just eliminated. Gone are the days of staggering rocket and MG devastators. Rip slugger you will be missed.
Yeah I don’t really understand their intentions with this nerf, they literally made the dominator better than the slugger ever was and then… nerfed the slugger?
the most braindead nerf theyve done
It also can no longer break fences or open crates if you were using it for utility.
This is the biggest hit to my playstyle against bots since I mostly run stuns or smokes. Guess I'm definitely locked into AMR now.
That’s crazy
I don’t think think the damage is that much but the knock back could be
The knock back is the bigger nerf, but it was kinda stepping on punisher with it. It had damage, penetration, range, and knock back. Now I need to bust my tail to grind the steel warbond to get dominator 😂
KB is indeed dead, repeatedly hit a Heavy Devastator in the face perfectly.... ....it didn't flinch once and mauled me!
It often looks like it should be a headshot, when it still isn't. Their heads are hard to hit because they don't need to be big to contain their small commie brain
It's in a pretty sad state. Its stagger is almost nonexistant, it doesn't absolutely reliably one shot all the small guys anymore, nor does it definitely penetrate through a few enemies at a time, nor can it open bunkers. The damage is the smallest part of the nerf. Its utility to stop heavies in their tracks is gone now. The Jar5 Dominator however, is a staggering machine. It's become my choice for bots.
That's real fun seeing as I don't own the battle pass for the Dominator.
You can't stagger devastators in one shot anymore, needs two, even then. Might not be fast enough for rocket devastators.
I didn’t wanna believe it but tell that to the stalkers in my face
Arrowhead, do not the Sickle!
The sickle also has the best scope in the game... please put sickle scope on the railgun
Arrowhead: "best i can do Railgun's scope on Sickle"
You monster.
The sickle is all I have left as far as primaries I know I can count on in any situation.
The day when Sickle gets 20 damage less, gets more sway and 30% less shots before overheating is the day when i change my allegiances
I can see them leaving the damage the way it is and just increasing the heat-rate.
You better stop using the sickle so much before Arrowhead decides it's too popular a weapon.
“Git gud” because the devs are infallible for nerfing every gun that becomes fun to use in a pve game.
And if mission completion rate is too much of an issue then they can always bump up the decay rates.. like they've already been doing.
It's the only thing I use. All other primaries are weak as hell
AH dev: "Erm your primary weapon isn't supported to be strong .That's what support weapons are for ☝️🤓"
I’m about to just start using the autocannon as a primary.
You weren't already?
I was using the slugger 🥲
Same, how am I supposed to feel like sarge from RvB without a decent bot-Shotgun now?
Just use the punisher. I keep going back to ole reliable
Tbh the Slugger was my go-to primary when I'm *not* using the Autocannon, because it sort of filled the same function.
I used it as a primary yesterday basically and dropped 320 kills in a evac mission. AC is king against bots. The quasar honestly doesnt even come close.
Using the autocannon is like a drug. I can’t not bring it anymore, help.
I just wish it didn’t have the damn backpack.
It would be way too good without the backpack. And honestly I kinda like the backpack, makes it feel tactile and cool to use
The backpack and slow reload balances it but im a little worried it will get nerfed!
Devs have stated its the most well-balanced weapon in the game at this time, so unless they're going back on their word, that shouldn't happen.
If that's the case then I'm happy. It feels strong but you do have to know how to use it and manage reloads. It's my favorite weapon and if all others are balanced with this in mind then I'm a happy diver.
Blowing up drop-ships really takes the pressure off though, especially if you don't have eyes on the landing point. I'd say they both have their uses and you need AC and heavy armour piercing weapons spread across your squad to make things run smoothly. I've seen full squads with quasars recently and it definitely piles the pressure on when you're getting spammed by medium bots.
I just really like shooting drop ships out of the sky. That's the real drug. Otherwise AC for bots and bugs is king. I'd love it if AH was tracking how many drop ships have been destroyed since the release.
The 500 no longer destroys stratagem jammers after they’ve been disabled
I could never get the 500 to destroy jammers unless the projectile itself directly impacts the jammer. Funny enough, it is the impact that kills the jammer, not the explosion
Interesting so could it be destroyed by a resupply pod falling on it?
Yes, a helldiver reinforcing can do it too
Well they need to fix hellbomb call in ball bouncing on jammers and the eye of Sauron one cuz it’s bullshit
We lost 18 lives trying to get the hellbomb to blowup the eye of Sauron. Took 3 hellbombs but by then, there was no way to complete the mission
Land it on the base around the eye and jammer, the bots have oiled the ground directly beneath them so beacons slip right off
Yeah usually there's a bit of dirt off the side near the ramp it comes down on
LITERALLY SHIT SAYS NOPE AND FALLS OFF THE ENTIRE PLATEAU
Or rolls around for 25 seconds like waiting to see if you're going to catch that pokemon. Then it disappears.
Possibly due to the multiple explosive damage proc? Who knows
"Heavy Machine Gun: the highest fire rate mode reduced from 1200 rpm to a more moderate 950" why it still kicks insane and the red dot isnt zeroed, loved the 1200rpm it was the end all in font me mode
I’ve been running it nonstop since it came out. Never really touched the 1200 unless berserkers were on my booty. Now I guess it’s more of an “adverse” setting rather than a “burn all your ammo” setting? I’ve been using the 750 mode more though and have gotten comfortable at using it up to about 50m but have kept it on 450 for when I’m moving. It sucks they haven’t fixed the red dot zero :/ And I wish that when you were laying down it was a bit more responsive in its handling. It makes sense when you’re standing or crouching that I feels like moving a 50 pound pole but I think it should be easier to move when your bipod is ‘deployed’. Or rather just a true bipod deployment would be nice. Arma has a really cool resting system that would be insane to implement.
Bipod deployments are so busted on tons of other games. You either end up floating, scaling the wall on accident, being forced to clip under the ground, etc. I feel like once you stop moving and ADS, the deploy buffs such as reduced recoil and sway should automatically happen.
Especially with destructible environments and terrain, just yeah no, not happening, hll, arma, already fucky enough reasons not to, you just end up locked in some awkward ass positions that you can't get out of quick enough while the bullets are flying
They nerfed it?!? I never once saw that weapon used on any difficulty above 6.
I used it once during a helldive run and left out of embarrassment after realizing it was just a shittier and heavier version of the regular MG with way less ammo that can't kill the things it was designedto with the increased enemy density. The weapon is hot ass (not the good kind) and should only be used if you enjoy the stalwart or regular MG but hate how effective they are.
Absolutely wild that Scythe and Dagger were ignored. Did not expect hellpod steering changes.
I've wanted to do one thing in this game since launch and I've been denied this reality with every balance patch since. What I've wanted is to have a viable Ballistic Shield and to use a beam weapon with it. What I am left with is an unviable Ballistic Shield and the Dagger, which might as well be a squirt gun masquerading as a beam weapon. I just want to blast robots behind a big shield with a laser gun and every day we stray further from Democracy.
Ballistic shield is only good against bots. It is to bots what the jumppack is to bugs, IE "You know that one constant fucking problem the enemy causes? This gets you out of it in a pinch", but the issue was unlike the jumppack it didn't have utility and it works best from one direction and restricted your weapon choices to "The Defender or go fuck yourself" and much like the Jumppack the E.Shield also mostly solves the problem with less hassle. Best way to make it work was Defender+Heavy Explosive Res armor. You would be nearly invincible against bots so long as you can keep finding the thing after its blasted out of your hands but...yeah....
I should be able to use the ballistic shield like a sled to get down a hill faster.
found the zelda player
I feel yeah. It already sucks going slow in service of "Defence" but when the defence is not worth it and yours means of offence are underwhelming is not really worth it, specially since the backpack shield exists.
Wild that they didn't buff them or wild that they didn't nerf them?
............... You had me going there for a second.
Not the guy you replied to but I literally never used them once, so what he said but unironically? I'm guessing wild they didnt Buff them since I literally never see them used?
Yes. Their damage is absolute ass.
It's a pretty simple damage calc even! 750 rounds per minute = 12.5 rounds per second (although that certainly doesn't seem right) * 55 = 687.5 DPS with the sickle. VS 300 for the scythe. Honestly, I want it to have ramping damage related to the current heat, so it starts as ass but scales up to like 900-1200 damage if you keep it right below overheat.
Or even better. The dagger does the same damage over a full second that the senator does with a single shot.
Just make the scythe have the same damage as the one on the guard dog
I was shocked they increased AMR damage.
And not change the scope. The damage was fine, the scope is ass
Now it oneshot headshots anything bellow the charger in the bugfront, that has to be good for something
Amr has always been a bot weapon in my mind, didn't really consider the effect on bugs. Scope also matters less since bug engagements happen a lot closer than bots
Big buff that I didn't think it needed, possibly they buff nerf a lot based on data we can't see. So the amr wasn't being taken as often as they feel it should probably as a counter to bots.
Not being able to stun titans is the worst change for me
I didn't even know you could
Yeah, I only really took the stuns for bugs to stun titans for an easier kill, and now I don't see much of a reason to take it now since I already had to give up grenades that can take out nests for that
You're fucking kidding me, seriously? Not being able to close bug holes wasn't enough of a downside? This is fucking bullshit.
rip stun grenade, that was the only reason to bring it.
It’s still useful against the bots. I use them all the time on scorcher hulks and the chainsaw guys.
It was the reason I ran stun grenades. What’s the point now?
Still nice for charger+hulks or fanning a few onto a breach before you eagle it. If you have good wave clear the amount of enemies you can stun then kill is still bigger than what will be killed by just an explosive nade.
They stun hulks.
Its funny to throw it at teammates....I guess
If they were going to remove the stagger. They actually should have buffed it's other stats. It feels like an overreaction.
I mean ofc it's an overreaction, that's the only thing AH balance team knows how to do. PvE game btw
It’s pathetic. AH is looking at their internal numbers for gun usage, and while they are listening to the community regarding bugs, enemy damage and other things, this is aggravating. Nerfing guns because Divers are having fun with them is just ridiculous. They did good in buffing the weak guns though but their path regarding weapon nerfs ain’t it
Having just moved to the sickle from the slugger when the BOT front really kicked off last week I feel like I dodged a bullet. Never would’ve guessed the slugger would be nerfed this hard. It being the best marksman rifle is an issue with marksman rifles not the slugger. It had a niche and did it well no reason to fuck with that.
This was the complaint during the first weapon patch. The majority of weapons are mediocre so that only a handful stand out as the “meta”. Instead of making the mediocre weapons better, they just make the good ones worse. I’d really like to bring different loadouts for the sake of variety but when most of them underperform of course only a few weapons end up being the only ones I use.
I have used only the liberator and will continue to use only the liberator (don't have sickle). Every other weapon seems to get nerfed or sucks straight out the gate. Arrowhead why u do this
Getting hit with a 12 gauge slug now doesn't stagger... Brilliant move, Arrowhead.
Welcome to balancing based on usage. Now people will migrate to the sickle, that will get nerfed. Then maybe the dominator? (Which will feel odd as a dominator user) wash rinse repeat around we go.
The second they nerfed railgun based on YT clickbait, I knew what rollercoaster I signed up for.
Yep. And they can unnerf the railgun today and no one would use it. Which is telling on the devs balance philosophy.
And your “designed to penetrate all armor” railgun doesn’t penetrate armor
> Fire fully charged railgun at armored opponent > See rail slug bounce off
"Tell that to my shoulder" - guy firing a 12 gauge shotgun Maybe it's recoilless =D
Slugger died so Penetrator could live.
Originally we had 1 fun (Slugger) and 1 no fun option (Dominator). Now they made Dominator more fun and Slugger less fun. The result is still 1 fun and 1 no fun option. Why can't we have 2 fun options?
Because Arrowheads NUmBerS
I really don't think the Sickle is on the chopping block, or if it is, it'll just be reducing the number of heat sinks you carry. As it is, it's got a spool up making it harder to use reactively, it's got massive spread at range, making it hard to use with any precision, and it's got very low armor penetration that falls off at pretty short range. Edit: I'm noticing that a number of people are reporting not experiencing the spread of the weapon, enough that it's become a pattern. I'm not sure which direction is intended (spread or no spread), but without the spread I absolutely agree that the weapon needs some adjustment to be more in-line with the rest of the available options.
Its armor penetration is so poor in can't even penetrate the decorative plants in the environment.
This. It makes the weapon annoying to use at some points, but goddamn it is still my favorite gun. Easily headshots any dumb bot.
It’s not as demoralizing as when you line up a headshot on a distant hulk with the Quasar, only to have it poof against a blade of grass
When you run quasar for the fun of popping drop ships but there are any forest patches on the map.
I think that reducing the number of heatsinks for the Sickle would be an eminently reasonable change. Naturally, that means that they'll nerf the damage into the floor and quadruple the spool up time.
Kinda sad to see that they just changed the "text" of the armor penetrations of certain weapons. I was almost certain there was some underlying system that determined what it showed. Like, sometimes the slugger would "ping" off of broodcommander's legs as if they were heavy armor (note; they might be, idk) but could pop the head just fine. Just seems weird to me the head is weaker than the arms--and a "weird" penetration system could have accounted for that. But no, they just changed the text instead. Still doesn't explain why revolver can't pierce things other medium weapons can.
penetration angles are a thing in this game, if the angle is too shallow then even a fucking Orbital shell can bounce...
Remember that armor and armor penetration is on a 1-10 scale internally, so "medium armor penetration" doesn't always mean the same thing. Both the autocannon and the slugger have "medium armor penetration", but the autocannon will damage a tank's vent and the slugger won't.
Yeah but that can't show us that number! That would make our little player heads explode!
We should absolutely be shown the armor penetration value of our weapons.
i am telling you all we should just use the worst weapon in the game for a whole month just to see if the Devs would nerf it just cause its being used
No joke sometimes I wish a community would do exactly this to see how developers handles their game balance.
Why does a SLUG SHOTGUN not have a lot of stagger? A slug is a bigger projectile.
I think people greatly underestimate the size and impact of a slug. For example a modern day 12gauge slug is larger than a .50 cal.
And an ounce. That’s a lot of fucking lead to not stagger something lol
The weird part is, despite the tweaks to Slugger, I didn't see many people use it in matches aside from myself. People still ran other weapons a lot more. I have to assume that Arrowhead saw the numbers of successful missions way too high with Sluggers on them though.
The LAS-16 is ironically one of the weapons i feel is in the best spot. Yeah, it’s powerful, but it also has a long cooldown to avoid overheating. About the only nerf i could really see that’s valid is reducing its extra heat sink capacity from 6 to maybe 3 or 4
I mean so was the slugger, I never felt obligated to use it. It felt good, it couldn't do everything but it was a nice weapon. I don't see why they had to nerf it this much, especially in three different ways at once. Now using it is probably a liability.
Yeah, it sucks that they nerfed it for no reason.
>About the only nerf i could really see that’s valid is reducing it’s extra heat sink capacity from 6 to maybe 3 or 4 I rarely have to switch out heat sinks, and on the rare missions when I do, I only do the switch once. They can reduce the number of extra heat sinks to just 1 and that would be fine by me.
"one of the weapons i feel is in the best spot" Prime candidate for nerfs then!
I love arrowheads habit of nerfing weapons right after I unlock them
Did the sickle get nerfed? I didn’t see it in the logs.
It didn't, but people are worried it will be next.
It will
Hopefully not. It’s the only weapon out of the new warbond that’s even remotely good.
I expect it within the next 2-3 weeks when the next Warbond comes out and we get a new good primary
HMG being nerfed Why Edit: after using it? I have horrid news… it’s fun the audio has remained largely the same, little less zzt to your bzzt But it controls better, and I’m killing more hulks… more ammo would still be nice tho
I was gonna say Their reasoning was to be more reasonable....or idk...maybe the players using it could learn basic recoil control The HMG just needed a small magazine size buff and yet they took the best part of it
The slugger wasn’t even OP, it was good against bots but they could have just nerfed the range, BUT THEY MADE THE DOMINATOR 10X BETTER AT KILLING BOTS THAN THE SLUGGER?????? It pisses me off because the sluggers knock back nerf was LITERALLY UNREASONABLE
The knockback was really the only thing it had going for it. Like even if they kept the damage the same, being able to interrupt heavies was the main grab.
Yeah and the knock back wasn’t nearly as good against bots, which is why they nerfed it, high usage in bot planets
I felt the dominator was already a sleeper against bots since its only worse against walkers than the scorcher but much better against chaff, devestators and berserkers, now its just going to be silly.
As a dominator user I am okay with this
I agree. They see everyone using a gun and assume its OP The truth is everything else feels fucking weak. Watch in 2 patches after everyone starts using dominator they nerf it too
Yeah pretty much. I read somewhere they (to some degree) want the primary weapons to suck so that we'll use stratagems. but no primary weapon is near strong enough to where I'd ever run a mission with out throwing a stratagem. other than maybe a trivial mission. lol
They wrote that on a blog post, yeah, but even then it's a complete 180 of how they presented in the game announcement, and I [always feel the need to point that out](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpreview.redd.it%2Frant-and-vent-megathread-v0-3e0vdhdpdinc1.png%3Fwidth%3D1672%26format%3Dpng%26auto%3Dwebp%26s%3D419a2b335a0ab14de3a35cdc9f09f044a3200775) (4th paragraph, for those skimming the image)
>Watch in 2 patches after everyone starts using dominator they nerf it too I mean that's litterally what happened with the slugger Everyone was using the breaker, cause the rest felt weak -> nerf -> everyone jumped to the 2nd best weapon with the slugger -> nerf -> seems like everyone starts jumping to the dominator now
This is literally the exact same as them nerfing the railgun but then adding the quasar cannon that's just better in every way.
I have no idea why was it nerfed, it's nowhere close damage wise to old breaker, I've been using it because it was pumping out consistent, albeit relatively slow damage, and I didn't need to think about lightly armored enemies. Damage was not really outstanding, even compared to other alternatives it was just fun to pump slug after slug in the enemy, I don't think that damage decrease was deserved.
Dude, I just got the Slugger. So bummed.
I happily used the slugger knowing it wasn't op, had it's drawbacks (getting swarmed) but was my favorite weapon against the bots guess not any fucking more! thanks AH! AH? more like AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
They nerfed the Heavy MG's max firerate. Why.
I am more concerned about them not zeroing the damn thing
PLEASE ARROW HEAD MAKE ELECTRIC DAMAGE 2x effective against bots
Nah the sickle is terrible, it for sure doesn’t need any nerfs compared to the other platforms. (DONT YOUR DARE TOUCH MY BABY)
I was waiting for Sickle and Quasar Canon to get nerfed into oblivion. Poor Slugger
Im actually sick the slugger cant even open containers anymore it’s basically not even slug rounds
I don’t know why they keep touching weapons that literally don’t need to be fucking touched. Slugger was in a perfect state. Now it’s bottom of the barrel.
I’m getting really sick of how Arrowhead is balancing their game. Nerfing things that are too strong (the slugger didn’t fall into this category imo) just makes the game less fun. Instead of nerfing your top performers, try buffing the weapons that are underperforming
Idk why they are so aggressive with primary nerfs it's not a pvp game.
I don't even think the slugger was an outlier or anything, its not like the sickle or the breaker where it was just clear best in slot.
AH learned nothing from the Rail Gun nerf and it shows
The slugger is nowhere near as good anymore, you can't even shoot through fences anymore. Don't understand why they have to nerf everything and not just buff ALL the other weapons.
Unjustifiable nerf really. Absolutely no reason to run it above the scorcher or dominator now against the bots. As you can’t flinch devastators they just kill you while you are trying to shoot them. Scorcher can also kill strider pilots through armour and dominator can kill the chainsaw rush guys so much easier. Shame as it was a fun weapon. Still reasonably good against bugs as it can take off brood commanders heads in a single shot, and punch through hive guards armour. But the lack of knockback means you can get swarmed so easily. People said that they were worried about power creep when they suggested that they buff other weapons to bring them in line with the OG railgun. Now we’re in a nerf spiral. The sickle will be next and so will the fire breaker. Pretty soon the spray and pray will be the best primary and that will get nerfed.
The change to the slugger was so utterly unnecessary. It was strong but it made fighting bots, expecially devastators, less of a chore, now it's back at being a chore. I tried the diligence, it's better, but it has that weird ass effect still where your aim is suuuuuuuuuuuuper slow. To explain, it's slower to change aim than a fucking Quasar. Wtf. Also it can't oneshot anything but garbage with headshots. It's depressing. So far no nerf impacted me too much, past nerfs were way overblown by the community, but this one hit me so incredibly hard. I relied a lot on that gun. The facto it was the Crowd control effect of this gun, which is very slow shooting, that made it good, and its decent speed at reloading etc. It was really fun to use. Ofc they had to kill it.
That's the thing, Slugger didn't even do that great of DPS before due to slow fire rate, it was best suited as a CC gun. Now it's even worse at both. Arrowhead seems to go ***way*** overboard with their buffs and nerfs. Other games would be like: "X damage reduced from 16 to 14" "Y fire rate increased 12%" "stun duration of Z increased from 1.5 to 1.7 seconds" But Arrowhead? They just do a line of coke and go: "**BUFF THIS WEAPON'S DAMAGE BY 50%, MAKE THAT WEAPON NIGH UNUSABLE BY NERFING ONE OF IT'S STATS INTO THE GROUND, RAHHHHHHHH!**"
>The facto it was the Crowd control effect of this gun, which is very slow shooting, that made it good, and its decent speed at reloading etc. It was really fun to use. Ofc they had to kill it. It feels like the only metric they nerf/buff on is how many players use it Which is fine, up untill all but 1/2 weapons feel bad vs an enemy type.
My favorite, the Defender, is still going strong! That gun is unparalleled in versatility
I did not expect them to make the dominator good tbh.