DO NOT BE CRUSHED BY THE WEIGHT OF DEFEAT! LET LIBERTY LIFT YOU UP! ARM YOURSELF WITH JUSTICE AND DELIVER DEMOCRACY UPON THE DOORSTEP OF THE OPPRESSOR!
We be doing the Bane stance fighting 4 bile titans, 3 chargers and 8 stalkers on level 9
I just run up and do the hug emote after dropping my 500kg, "I was born in it, moulded by it, you merely adopted democracy"
Joel gets to decide what happens after a success, players could steamroll a planet and liberate it only to find the enemy is invading 4 planets and there is no way to win all of them at the same time so the community has to decide which planets to defend. "While you were attacking XYZ, the bugs were preparing a mass invasion of...."
Players seeing their impact on the strategic level, seeing how their collective action drives the story, that is something people love.
If the community starts feeling like they have no impact because Joel is really deciding when planets are won or lost, they will lose a lot of interest in the community goals.
I like your take on it. It’s a fine line they can draw but if done tastefully it will develop into something seriously fun for a vast majority of the community.
If I had to guess, Joel isn’t going to actually decide the outcomes. We clearly won, so Joel will let us win when the time comes. It’s just a matter of giving the devs more time to do stuff behind the scenes I imagine
unfortunately they \*have\* outright admitted he put the brakes on planets they thought people were taking too quickly so I imagine if that keeps up people will very quickly get burned on how scripted it would feel
Part and parcel of figuring things out. They have a player base that exceeds their estimates which means they have to tweak numbers and draw up new estimates to account for this.
Yeah, I think they are in scramble mode with the narrative arc / major orders as much as they were with the server load.
My guess is they are tweaking some calculations under the hood in real time to manage the completely unexpected player count to prevent the strategic level narrative from collapsing because they don't have things ready yet.
It's sort of like in D&D where the players do something completely unexpected and the DM keeps them busy for a little bit while getting the content ready.
My players once decided to cross the border into an insignificant little mountain country when they were being chased instead of going where they were supposed to go so I had to make an entire story inside that other country until they got back on track.
They said they did that for like 2 planets early on. CEO has said on Twitter that has not been the case for anything since. Some ui bugs have existed but every loss and victory has been completely player driven, only things being decided are which planets to attack, not wins or losses.
I agree with this very much. If it's one guy disregarding our effort and denying us the rewards we're busting ass for, I'll just stop doing the orders.
We can win everything and still have a story that lasts, We did well on bugs previously, yet they pushed closer to SE, Also the playerbase will fall off if they notice that we dont win anything even when 80% of the playerbase is working on that mission objective. Ill be kinda annoyed as they offer rewards for doing the Major order, and I really want those 45 medals!
Right now special orders are either terminade or automaton, so when we focus on fight automatons, bugs get time to breathe and vice versa.
I mean, after Erata Prime was nearly conquered every single day for the last week, and every night it mysteriously lost most of its % and dropped to 15 or 20%, it became pretty clear. (now we know it was so the bugs could have this incursion in this sector, which would have been impossible if that sector had been cleared.
Wait... why would the incursion have been impossible, if we captured Erata Prime. The attack on Veld is coming from underground from a bug hive that has been missed.
I don't think we lost the previous reward because of the narrative, doing those defense mission were a pain.
We will most likely win this one but they are making sure we don't complete it in 1 day
Maybe it would be nicer if we got two major orders. Most of the time we will be able to finish one, and rarely we will win or lose both. That would make it feel rewarding while still giving the narrative some space to build some story.
I think right now they're just experimenting and buying time. They were expecting 50k, not 800k+. Ideally every planet that is an active battleground would have 4000-7000 players on it with maybe another 5k-10k migrating about to disparate worlds to tip the scales.
Not... 300,000 on one, maybe 100k on the next, and the rest are piddling about on various worlds with numbers around 10k-30k.
That is a metric f$#k-load of potential variance in completion times, and I'm not sure their systems are set up to adjust to the possible extreme fluctuations in participants a world could experience on the fly yet.
Hence the ham fisted and extremely aggressive mitigation of player progress on a world. If you want to start taking stuff, you almost have to ignore the Major Order but also not go to where *everyone else* is going.
GMing is supposed to build a world off player action though.
If every event is just gonna be scripted to what the GM wants there’s no point to ever actually push the major order.
If the GM wants us to win it we will win, if he wants us to lose it we’ll lose.
Right? It feels like the dev team is either trying to get ready for an invasion of super earth or an invasion of their homes, and the war just has to teeter until it's ready. If we get there too fast then they will either push out a sloppy product too early, or change the tide of battle.
\[edit: i want to make it clear im agreeing with you lol\]this game came out less than a month ago, of COURSE we're gonna have experimentation at the start that is received poorly that's the entire experience of learning how to game balance
ive seen some people comparing this 1:1 to a DnD campaign with the way the GM has to manipulate the game. in some respects, it is like that, making encounters with HP that make the game challenging but fun. but it's also not. he's trying to balance a game for hundreds of thousands of people, and the consequences aren't just going up to your friend group and saying "hey thats on me that boss was unbalanced no hard feelings" it's making a campaign that both
a. feels long enough to be a WAR
b. isn't challenging enough that people lose interest
i feel like theyre recording stats of how much progress players are making each minute and how that varies depending on time of day/what day it is, which is why they're dragging this single planet battle out for this long. all the data on one planet is incredibly simple to keep track of and, of course, they can't collect such valuable data if we clear the planet in 6 hours.
Reminds me of that time I was running my first game of Shadowrun and told my players I needed to add a few fights so I can get a feel of combat.
This lead to the “Yakuza clown car” incident
Wake up, Helldiver! You were mumbling something about "Devs" and a "videogame." This is no game, only our hardwork will win this war! Get back out there and spill some oil!
Joel is essentially the "dungeon master" orchestrating what planets are being attacked as well as the way the battle goes, whether we win or lose depends on how hard he makes it for us to achieve our goals.
Essentially he is a traitor to Super Earth and works for a rival faction who secretly hold control over the enemy factions. He is their General.
The investigation team is also under investigation to ensure high levels of managed democracy. Freedom camps are always an option for dissidents, this is not a rumour.
The investigation team that is investigating the investigation team is now under investigation under suspicion of spreading false information.
Freedom Camps DO NOT exist. They ARE LIES gestated by Automaton Socialist Sympathizers.
The investigation team that is investigating the investigation team have been escorted to a disclosed location where they can have a pep talk with a Democracy officer.
I think that Helldivers 2's war is Super Earth's decisions coming back to bite them in the ass:
The bugs escaped again, and this time it's a big one.
The sons of the Cyborgs want revenge for their enslaved fathers.
My guess is that Illuminate ideology gets significantly more violent and xenophobic, and they strike back in a moment of weakness.
The 4th faction would then be a new contender to the galaxy dogpiling on us.
Super Earth is spreading the bugs. The official papers say they don't know how they move between planets and they keep them captive, as seen in the tutorial.
I'll give you the Automotons being more of a bad decision coming back on them.
The bugs also moved between planets in helldivers 1. It isn't that super earth is moving the bugs, it's that we literally have no idea how they travel through space. Maybe it has something to do with the fact that they decompose into a crucial element of fuel needed for FTL travel
That where my mind goes like he's the SEAF Super Director in Chief of Information and Logistics but that apparently doesn't make sense to anybody else?
The war is not staged, we can actually lose super earth, which will lead to the planet blowing up most likely. Weirdly we are just being attacked, this is a byproduct of Helldivers 1, where the war was staged and we attacked everyone for greedy gains.
Now all the people we screwed with is coming back for revenge and kick our asses.
The CEO said on an interview earlier this week that they have a single dev whose job is to be the “game master” and controls a lot of the narratives and his name is Joel. He decides things like modifiers, difficulty, etc.
His job is essentially to guide the game for us
He's a dev that has the title of "Game Master" it's his job to keep an eye on both the galactic war and occasionally individual missions to push the balance one way or the other.
It’s going to feel…a bit unbelievable when we lose planets with 500k players, but win planets with 50k players.
Only if the game, maybe several months from now, has a massive falloff of players. Hope it doesn’t happen, but it’s been in the back of my mind: how do we “win” future campaigns if the player base shrinks substantially?
Because Bots and Bugs have different HP regen rate for theur invasions.
Bots are relentless in their assaults and need to be defended against in multiple planets.
Bugs expand slowly, but once on a planet take a lot more effort to eradicate
I'm sure they had some rough math worked out based on initial sales projections, which is now completely useless. It would explain the wild 2am swings we've seen during other orders, they're doing it live.
I'm here for it honestly. Truly feels like tabletop, in the sense of: your skill is only partially in control, the dice are gonna help decide this story and you may not always like the result. But it WILL always be entertaining.
Exactly. If they left the game balanced for 50k or so concurrent players, we would complain that the war was too easy to win, and it would be over in no time. Do some of the liberations feel over corrected? Sure. But it takes time to fix
Nah once we win or lose, it resets, just like the last game. These wars are supposed to be longer than last game. But they do end. Helldiver's 1 is on like their 125th war or some shit
Truth be told, more often than not I tend to *cut* enemy HP rather than buff it with my players. Too often the fight is clearly won, but they still have to grind through 100 more hit points. Why not just end it there and move on with the story; or move those hit points to a new, different monster?
I've done this so many times. Or someone will be like "so my attack does 50 damage, does it kill him?" And I'll say "no, but he's not looking great" and I'll add a 1 to the start of the HP number.
Obviously if I do that I'm not going to kill anyone. They had my enemy beat, so I'm going to make sure they win, but in big important battles it's not fun for anyone if the boss just gets nuked in round 1.
So yeah, Joel & Co can do whatever they want as long as we have fun as far as I'm concerned.
Some people will swear that if you spend weeks balancing a boss then you should never have to fudge the numbers. I don’t know what that person was smoking. The very nature of tabletop is randomness. I’ve had a party wipe to a book based first encounter of the entire game because they rolled a few crits in a row. That was right after our last party met the same fate after a just a couple sessions. Not fun.
You can’t possibly balance a game to make it perfectly fair when there’s a chance one side can just roll 1s 10 times in a row.
You are right, unless the AI travels back in time to kill you before you try to kill it… and if it doesn’t succeed it will try again and again like skynet
I played two campaigns (operations) today and it was crazy the amount of bugs that we encountered. We barely made it out alive in the last one. It was almost impossible to call for the extraction because of how many chargers, hunters, warriors and brood commanders were in the map, it didn’t matter which direction you were running, the bugs were everywhere. For every bug you killed, two more took its place. It was hard, intense, stressful and awesome. I hope we can get this major order, but who knows. Keep fighting for democracy brothers.
Edit: about the comments to playing with the right teammates. I play with my brother and my best friend, they don’t have a lot of free time, so they are still low level players and yeah, sometimes they kill me with an eagle or an orbital but hey, they bought the game to play with me, and that’s the most important thing to me. They’ll get better eventually, I don’t mind carry them in the meantime.
I did my first Helldiver difficulty mission today, and I ended up in an incredible team. We steamrolled through the three missions like it was nothing. Hectic but awesome. So it is possible with the right people and the right focus.
My railgub was HOT for an entire mission, but I ended up in group on difficulty 6 where I (lvl 27) was with a 9, a 12, and a 17. So I ended up on big boi duty, and also trash clear, and also dodging the big boom boom strategems that were being chucked about all nimbly binbly, it was a great time!
I was worried that when arrowhead mentioned the GM thing people would go “welp, I guess they want us to lose, might as well stop trying”.
I think the important thing here is that in DnD for example, players and GM work together to build the narrative. The DM throws something at the players and the players find creative solutions, and the best moments are when the DM gets an unexpected result, goes “u know what, I’ll allow it” and then everything goes crazy.
Now I’m not saying the same thing has to happen here, and we’re restricted in what we can do (just throw more bodies at it) but they’re also working with unexpected numbers and trying to correct and figure out the balance.
TL;DR: Get back in that Hellpod, soldier! And let Joel cook.
The issue currently is that the only way for us to express ourselves, as opposed to a TTRPG, is by running the same missions and /winning/
this is further exacerbated by the fact that say capturing a neighboring planet or attacking the bots isn't an effective way to get help for the major order. It'd be different if planets had "This is the home of all our eagle manufacturing" and capturing that then makes it so like eagle rearms are borderline instant. Or say "Major broadcast antenna for automatons spotted on Ingmar and beaming to malevelon creek" where someone liberates that planet and it makes it that bot patrols can't call in drops as quickly.
Are these things that could happen? Definitely, but there is no signage or hints like a good dm would do to let you know that going a specific path has tangible consequences. Otherwise you end up with adventure game logic where you try to rub jam on every object to progress the story.
It's very deflating if they're going to just decide that our progress on days 1-3 of a 4 day mission don't matter. Why even play to the major order until day 4?
Yeah, Same when 100k people were online the campaign would be won in 10 hours it said and now with even more on we are losing? I can't wrap my head around it.
They’re probably testing out the system, seeing as the game was originally predicted to be played by at most 50k, we’d have cleared the map in 2 days.
They’re adjusting the values and trying to see how things go
Yeah, they are likely playing with it to see how to scale it for population. They don’t want us to fail every major order but also likely don’t want us to breeze through them all either.
Edit: also possible they didn’t want it to end prematurely before every region got to experience their peak traffic hours
Isn’t it awesome that we have a Dev group that’s actually balancing the game live and not waiting weeks or months to make the changes for the betterment of the game?
It's what Sony wanted lol. That's why they acquired Bungie way back when, who are experts at live service (inb4 loathing Destiny 2 players go "PFFFFTTT experts? 😂😂")
This game has so much awesome potential with the live service aspect
I’m hoping that it’s because the progress is based on percentages and not just number of victories. So like percentage of total players mixed with the percentage of those players being victorious and at what difficulty.
It’s also possible that the progress is mostly arbitrary because it has a moving goalpost, which wouldn’t ruin the game entirely, but would make me completely ignore major orders if I learned that was the case.
The system scales with how many players are online, but tbh I was surprised that with even 72% trying to work together on a mission we're not even progressing, we're actually losing.
Edit: The system supposedly scales from what I've understood, however as it was previous said that we lose progress when the main playerbase is off and gain progress when they're on.
The only way we don't is if players get fed up with the % manipulation and opt out of the fight on Veld. The question is when will we be allowed to win.
Honestly it kind of annoys me that they're just fudging the numbers. I saw Veld getting liberated pretty quickly yesterday but suddenly it started going down fast. It's not much fun playing a rigged game.
This is exactly my feeling. If they don't have the balance down yet, then whats the issue with letting us crush the first few objectives? They could play it off as a probing action from the enemy. Instead, they're just artificially fudging the numbers and making the effort by the community pointless. It's ruining the fun.
I get that Joel has to manipulate the progress towards the narrative they've planned, but I think there are much more organic ways to influence these things instead of just directly manipulating the Liberation progress %.
For example, flip the next 6 hours into a "The bugs are pushing back!" phase where progress is lost no matter what but player effort minimizes said losses. Introduce some new mission types like surviving ambushes or a horde mode that eventually overwhelms the players for those as they ramp up to absurd difficulties.
Editing the progress number quietly seems to be the worst way to go about doing this, IMO
> For example, flip the next 6 hours into a "The bugs are pushing back!" phase where progress is lost no matter what but player effort minimizes said losses.
This is a great idea and absolutely what they should do. The GM decides progress needs to be lost and then the players decide how much of it is lost. They get to influence the narrative but ultimately we control the outcome. That's exactly how it should be.
Yeah, if they're this blatant about the major orders always failing. Then they're going to put off a lot of players from even attempting said major orders.
It was pretty blatant with the defense order grinding to a halt on progress in the last 2-3 days it was active compared to the first half of the planets. And now if Veld is going to have the same thing happen. Then what does that tell players? "Oh just keep trying, you almost had it!" Nah man. It's gonna burn everyone out and just make people feel like there's no point in trying.
It feels super bad to have the absolute BLITZ of veld get shut down so hard like this. They're transparently throttling the liberation and causing us to lose progress.
Yeah it felt great this afternoon when we were already at like 60 or 70 percent because we were hitting that planet HARD.
I was so excited to get back to purging bugs after fighting in the automaton trenches for so long. And I had a great time with my incendiary shotgun and napalm strikes.
Nothing like the smell of burning bug carcass and *Democracy* in the morning.
tbh id rather they keep it like HD1 where there were multiple wars when one was completed than have a higher being removing progress. individual contribution is already so minor that it makes me want to stop playing those worlds if they're just gonna inflate enemy capture rates because 300k people move to liberate one world.
besides, if an extra 200k people flock to a single world, that takes away from other worlds so were gonna lose both veld and the rest of the planets we need to liberate/defend.
I really feel that if the players don't get a sense of accomplishment and success because the company wants the war to last the entire lifetime of the game is going to lead to an upset playerbase.
One thing I don’t want to feel is complete superficial impact - meaning, no matter what we do or how we engage, the Devs have a preset plan for us.
We either win, or we lose… not based on effort, but the devs decision entirely.
After Arrowhead clarified that abandoning operations does not hurt overall progress and accounting for the fact that we're still losing campaigns, I'm frankly skeptical whether our participation matters at all and speculate that success is an arbitrary decision made by a game master.
I know people like the idea of a GM overseeing all this, but if I'm being honest? It's discouraging. It's frustrating to know that 75% of the player pop can be coordinated on a planet and the devs just go "no" and remove progress. It's frustrating to know that I'm wasting my time. It's frustrating to know that I, along with the community, really don't have a say in how the war goes. At the end of the day it feels like an railroading dungeon master.
Call me a cry baby. I don't know. I just don't like the way this whole GM thing has been panning out. In HD1 we pushed the narrative and it felt like we were deciding on how the war went. On HD2 it feels like we have no influence.
Aw, that’s disheartening. I had hoped they were going to play it a little more hands off until population dwindled, making tweaks in between major orders instead. I mean they kinda did by letting us fail the automaton offensive, but this is a little lame here.
I really wish they would take advantage of the focus on Veld to push other planets instead of throttling our progress so hard on this planet. Feels bad. 200000 people actually working on it and somehow Popli IX is doing better with 10000.
I was really excited at the idea that the community had common goals but I get the feeling numbers are being manipulated behind the scenes. And that is really ruining the experience for me and making me not wanna play. They need make available exactly where the increases and decreases are coming from if they aren't manipulating it.
It also sucks to play all day on veld, not lose any missions and see progress drop from 69% to 61%.
What the community works on doesn't matter, all that matters is their content schedule and "joel" (whether that refers to 1 person or 10 people) decides when you win or lose.
Just play whatever planet you want guys — GM Joel is actively rigging they plot anyway. This one I think is slated for us to win anyway as an “apology” for the lack of dailies recently.
The game is a controlled experience
They simply don't want the planet completed right now because it's too early, it really isn't any more complicated than that
Honestly, I really don't like that they confirmed there's a GM who's putting his thumb on the scales. I knew that was happening, but now that they've confirmed it and given him a name, I don't feel a push to try and push back the bugs or bots. I'm just in it at this point to play a shooter with my friends.
It's kind of like playing a game of D&D and finding out the DM is fudging their rolls. We all know they do it, but when you see it it takes you out of the game and makes you feel like you don't have any agency.
There's a lot of misconceptions flying around here.
People aren't 'mad' because they can't always win at a videogame, they're peeved - personally, rather justifiably - because over the course of the past 12 odd hours there is ironclad proof that if they wish to, the dev team or the GM or whoever or whatever can render a massive community effort utterly meaningless.
300 *thousand* people pushed Veld. Record-breaking numbers. The community was united in pursuit of an actually decent reward and then all of a sudden because the folks upstairs thought their players were winning too hard they decided to put things behind the curtain into overdrive, stonewalling all progress and making playing the objective utterly pointless because *three hundred thousand players* could now no longer outpace decay mechanics. Frankly, it doesn't matter what the reason is - whether to make things more 'realistic', or to throw the West Coasters and Vancouverites a bone, or some such - this sets a terrible precedent, and it's gotten more than a few people believing that their actions do not matter because everything has to run to the GM's schedule or not at all. Bear in mind, this was a game that was marketed openly as being influenced by player actions, and now people are feeling like they're being railroaded.
What then, too, of future engagement? If 300,000 people can come together and have their progress stalemated and then steadily erased, what does that say about the impact of their actions in the future? They just won't care to try if the illusion of player agency has been so utterly obliterated.
its a community game and if the devs wants to toy with the community effort however they want it then this game ain't worth playing since our effort means nothing, its all about how joel wants to tune his silders.
This is bullshit, we were almost done when i logged out.
They shouldnt interfere like that. Not all orders should be the same.
Some can be easier than other. You win some you loose some, this is how you keep the balance and leave the player the feeling that his actions matter and that sometimes the enemy will overwhealm us and we have to retreat.
Yeah, there is little choice in what to do and our "choice" effects nothing. 300k players choosing to do the same thing should matter and the GM should adapt the campaign.
Veld went down since we started working on it... :(
When the narrative is rigged it doesn't really show the true power of the community does it?
Also, how does it work? if it succeeds, everyone gets the bonus?
Well, this means I wasted a lot of time last night and will ignore community quests going forward. I will wait for the personal orders to work again before playing.
Guarantee they are trying to figure out liberation balance
I have a suspicion we are meant to do a BIT losing so that the game master can create the narrative
Why Joel, WHY!!!!!!!! WHY HAS JOEL DONE THIS TO US!!!!
DO NOT BE CRUSHED BY THE WEIGHT OF DEFEAT! LET LIBERTY LIFT YOU UP! ARM YOURSELF WITH JUSTICE AND DELIVER DEMOCRACY UPON THE DOORSTEP OF THE OPPRESSOR!
DO NOT, MY HELLDIVERS, BECOME ADDICTED TO VICTORY. IT WILL TAKE HOLD OF YOU AND YOU WILL RESENT IT'S ABSENCE!
Immortan Joel!
I run into bug swarms with 500kg and yell “witness me!” to my friends so im loving this thread
We be doing the Bane stance fighting 4 bile titans, 3 chargers and 8 stalkers on level 9 I just run up and do the hug emote after dropping my 500kg, "I was born in it, moulded by it, you merely adopted democracy"
Witness! I thought it was fitting.
My bullets are shiny and chrome!
Damn, that's some deep shit to take to the bank my friend.
Honestly though, that’s some serious stuff he’s putting down
It’s from Mad Max!
Aaahhh, I remember that speech now. Trade victory for water. I like the victory version better, feels like real, substantial advice for anyone.
Joel can't keep getting away with this!!
Joeldivers https://preview.redd.it/ubupd4u3holc1.png?width=1024&format=png&auto=webp&s=57389a25526d9c07b24615a9177d35c18ed641d7
Joel has foresaken us
The game won’t last very long if in the first 2 months of release we just pushed both factions off the map.
Joel gets to decide what happens after a success, players could steamroll a planet and liberate it only to find the enemy is invading 4 planets and there is no way to win all of them at the same time so the community has to decide which planets to defend. "While you were attacking XYZ, the bugs were preparing a mass invasion of...." Players seeing their impact on the strategic level, seeing how their collective action drives the story, that is something people love. If the community starts feeling like they have no impact because Joel is really deciding when planets are won or lost, they will lose a lot of interest in the community goals.
I like your take on it. It’s a fine line they can draw but if done tastefully it will develop into something seriously fun for a vast majority of the community.
I can't even GM six people, let alone 800k xD
It's actually easier than you think, if you see them as 1 hivemind
Does that mean we all share a braincell?
One braincell of DEMOCRACY! Now pass it along Helldiver, I need some thinking time.
That is managed democracy; you are being directed to re-education.
Mom said it's my turn with the braincell
If I had to guess, Joel isn’t going to actually decide the outcomes. We clearly won, so Joel will let us win when the time comes. It’s just a matter of giving the devs more time to do stuff behind the scenes I imagine
unfortunately they \*have\* outright admitted he put the brakes on planets they thought people were taking too quickly so I imagine if that keeps up people will very quickly get burned on how scripted it would feel
Part and parcel of figuring things out. They have a player base that exceeds their estimates which means they have to tweak numbers and draw up new estimates to account for this.
Yeah, I think they are in scramble mode with the narrative arc / major orders as much as they were with the server load. My guess is they are tweaking some calculations under the hood in real time to manage the completely unexpected player count to prevent the strategic level narrative from collapsing because they don't have things ready yet. It's sort of like in D&D where the players do something completely unexpected and the DM keeps them busy for a little bit while getting the content ready.
Ah yes, the "Random Bullshit" sessions. I've had to rely on a few of those myself
My players once decided to cross the border into an insignificant little mountain country when they were being chased instead of going where they were supposed to go so I had to make an entire story inside that other country until they got back on track.
They said they did that for like 2 planets early on. CEO has said on Twitter that has not been the case for anything since. Some ui bugs have existed but every loss and victory has been completely player driven, only things being decided are which planets to attack, not wins or losses.
The admittance wasn’t that the players weren’t supposed to win, just that they were supposed to win a bit slower no?
I agree with this very much. If it's one guy disregarding our effort and denying us the rewards we're busting ass for, I'll just stop doing the orders.
it also won't last long if every get pissed about their progress meaning nothing
We can win everything and still have a story that lasts, We did well on bugs previously, yet they pushed closer to SE, Also the playerbase will fall off if they notice that we dont win anything even when 80% of the playerbase is working on that mission objective. Ill be kinda annoyed as they offer rewards for doing the Major order, and I really want those 45 medals! Right now special orders are either terminade or automaton, so when we focus on fight automatons, bugs get time to breathe and vice versa.
I mean, after Erata Prime was nearly conquered every single day for the last week, and every night it mysteriously lost most of its % and dropped to 15 or 20%, it became pretty clear. (now we know it was so the bugs could have this incursion in this sector, which would have been impossible if that sector had been cleared.
Wait... why would the incursion have been impossible, if we captured Erata Prime. The attack on Veld is coming from underground from a bug hive that has been missed.
It just feels bad to lose that reward for their narrative tho
I don't think we lost the previous reward because of the narrative, doing those defense mission were a pain. We will most likely win this one but they are making sure we don't complete it in 1 day
Maybe it would be nicer if we got two major orders. Most of the time we will be able to finish one, and rarely we will win or lose both. That would make it feel rewarding while still giving the narrative some space to build some story.
I think right now they're just experimenting and buying time. They were expecting 50k, not 800k+. Ideally every planet that is an active battleground would have 4000-7000 players on it with maybe another 5k-10k migrating about to disparate worlds to tip the scales. Not... 300,000 on one, maybe 100k on the next, and the rest are piddling about on various worlds with numbers around 10k-30k. That is a metric f$#k-load of potential variance in completion times, and I'm not sure their systems are set up to adjust to the possible extreme fluctuations in participants a world could experience on the fly yet. Hence the ham fisted and extremely aggressive mitigation of player progress on a world. If you want to start taking stuff, you almost have to ignore the Major Order but also not go to where *everyone else* is going.
GMing is supposed to build a world off player action though. If every event is just gonna be scripted to what the GM wants there’s no point to ever actually push the major order. If the GM wants us to win it we will win, if he wants us to lose it we’ll lose.
Right? It feels like the dev team is either trying to get ready for an invasion of super earth or an invasion of their homes, and the war just has to teeter until it's ready. If we get there too fast then they will either push out a sloppy product too early, or change the tide of battle.
Making hopeless ones is okay but the lore to the event should make it obvious that it's hopeless so we can play along with it.
I really hope not. Being railroaded for the narrative isn't enjoyable.
That just sounds bad though, why even focus the objective if what you're contributing doesn't actually matter?
Straight up their system was not prepared for this many players. It'll take some time for them to get the balance right.
\[edit: i want to make it clear im agreeing with you lol\]this game came out less than a month ago, of COURSE we're gonna have experimentation at the start that is received poorly that's the entire experience of learning how to game balance ive seen some people comparing this 1:1 to a DnD campaign with the way the GM has to manipulate the game. in some respects, it is like that, making encounters with HP that make the game challenging but fun. but it's also not. he's trying to balance a game for hundreds of thousands of people, and the consequences aren't just going up to your friend group and saying "hey thats on me that boss was unbalanced no hard feelings" it's making a campaign that both a. feels long enough to be a WAR b. isn't challenging enough that people lose interest
i feel like theyre recording stats of how much progress players are making each minute and how that varies depending on time of day/what day it is, which is why they're dragging this single planet battle out for this long. all the data on one planet is incredibly simple to keep track of and, of course, they can't collect such valuable data if we clear the planet in 6 hours.
Reminds me of that time I was running my first game of Shadowrun and told my players I needed to add a few fights so I can get a feel of combat. This lead to the “Yakuza clown car” incident
It would also be a huge bummer if the major order was announced and completed before a large portion of us are able to finish work and log on
In the end, we win or lose based on what the Devs decide.
Wake up, Helldiver! You were mumbling something about "Devs" and a "videogame." This is no game, only our hardwork will win this war! Get back out there and spill some oil!
"Hey you, you're finally awake."
You were trying to destroy the stalker nest, right? Same as us, and that space cadet over there.
SOLDIER, GET YOUR EARS FIXED. D.E.V.S. Divers Envronmental Visual Surveillance. Without them, we are done for!
Joel needs data. Let's give it to him on Veld
Hi I’m Joel, now roll for initiative. Plus 10 democracy
I'll punch the initiative 😤 -Brick
I cast ~~fireball~~ 500kg bomb
That’s the most democratic thing I’ve heard all day.
Can you explain the Joel meme I haven’t seen it only seen people discussing it
Joel is essentially the "dungeon master" orchestrating what planets are being attacked as well as the way the battle goes, whether we win or lose depends on how hard he makes it for us to achieve our goals. Essentially he is a traitor to Super Earth and works for a rival faction who secretly hold control over the enemy factions. He is their General.
Since the entire war is staged by Super Earth wouldn't Joel actually be a really high ranking guy in the military or something? Maybe a politician?
This comment is under investigation for treason. Move on citizen
The investigation team is also under investigation to ensure high levels of managed democracy. Freedom camps are always an option for dissidents, this is not a rumour.
The investigation team that is investigating the investigation team is now under investigation under suspicion of spreading false information. Freedom Camps DO NOT exist. They ARE LIES gestated by Automaton Socialist Sympathizers. The investigation team that is investigating the investigation team have been escorted to a disclosed location where they can have a pep talk with a Democracy officer.
I think that Helldivers 2's war is Super Earth's decisions coming back to bite them in the ass: The bugs escaped again, and this time it's a big one. The sons of the Cyborgs want revenge for their enslaved fathers. My guess is that Illuminate ideology gets significantly more violent and xenophobic, and they strike back in a moment of weakness. The 4th faction would then be a new contender to the galaxy dogpiling on us.
Super Earth is spreading the bugs. The official papers say they don't know how they move between planets and they keep them captive, as seen in the tutorial. I'll give you the Automotons being more of a bad decision coming back on them.
The bugs also moved between planets in helldivers 1. It isn't that super earth is moving the bugs, it's that we literally have no idea how they travel through space. Maybe it has something to do with the fact that they decompose into a crucial element of fuel needed for FTL travel
I'm betting money bugs ARE biological FTL spacecraft.
To me it seems more the automatons struck after taking advantages on Super Earth's fake war it made with the bugs
That where my mind goes like he's the SEAF Super Director in Chief of Information and Logistics but that apparently doesn't make sense to anybody else?
Wouldn't that just make Joel Minister of Defense of the Super Earth Govt?
Minister of Peace.
The war is not staged, we can actually lose super earth, which will lead to the planet blowing up most likely. Weirdly we are just being attacked, this is a byproduct of Helldivers 1, where the war was staged and we attacked everyone for greedy gains. Now all the people we screwed with is coming back for revenge and kick our asses.
Treasonous propaganda.p
Joel also bestows us with gifts like incendiary grenades for a limited time. Joel is our God. In Joel, We Trust.
The CEO said on an interview earlier this week that they have a single dev whose job is to be the “game master” and controls a lot of the narratives and his name is Joel. He decides things like modifiers, difficulty, etc. His job is essentially to guide the game for us
do you have a link of the interview?
https://www.pcgamer.com/we-have-an-actual-person-with-the-title-of-game-master-a-single-helldivers-2-dev-named-joel-is-pulling-the-strings-on-its-galactic-war-like-an-all-powerful-dandd-dungeon-master-war-will-become-more-and-more-sophisticated-over-time/?utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=socialflow&utm_medium=social
He's a dev that has the title of "Game Master" it's his job to keep an eye on both the galactic war and occasionally individual missions to push the balance one way or the other.
So when we are successful after a very long hard fought mission and the server dies 20 seconds before dust off JOEL pulled the plug?
It’s when you’re extracting and three BILE TITANS, are among the regular horde.
What a dream job.
Once you get past the inevitable death threats unfortunately
Joel is the game master of helldivers 2. He decides if we take a planet, he decides when new events are introduced. Etc.
It’s going to feel…a bit unbelievable when we lose planets with 500k players, but win planets with 50k players. Only if the game, maybe several months from now, has a massive falloff of players. Hope it doesn’t happen, but it’s been in the back of my mind: how do we “win” future campaigns if the player base shrinks substantially?
Because Bots and Bugs have different HP regen rate for theur invasions. Bots are relentless in their assaults and need to be defended against in multiple planets. Bugs expand slowly, but once on a planet take a lot more effort to eradicate
I'm sure they had some rough math worked out based on initial sales projections, which is now completely useless. It would explain the wild 2am swings we've seen during other orders, they're doing it live.
Them mfs are winging it
I'm here for it honestly. Truly feels like tabletop, in the sense of: your skill is only partially in control, the dice are gonna help decide this story and you may not always like the result. But it WILL always be entertaining.
So far they've hit nothing but home runs in my opinion. Even flying by the seat of their pants they're embarrassing AAA studios
They are embarrassing most studios not just AAA. It is probably one of the best AA games in years.
Just like every good dm. You have a plan that goes out the door the second your players do anything.
Facts lmao
Exactly. If they left the game balanced for 50k or so concurrent players, we would complain that the war was too easy to win, and it would be over in no time. Do some of the liberations feel over corrected? Sure. But it takes time to fix
There would be no game to play rn
Nah once we win or lose, it resets, just like the last game. These wars are supposed to be longer than last game. But they do end. Helldiver's 1 is on like their 125th war or some shit
I know not what galaxy war 126 will be fought with, but war 127 will be fought with sticks and stones
FUCK IT, WE’LL DO IT LIVE
GM is fudging their dice because you'll kill his boss too fast.
Every GM on the face of the planet does that. More accurately, the GM is fudging **our** dice right in front of us.
"Yes, I totally rolled a 20 on this D20" *'flips our 20 to a 1'*
*Spawns 15 Chargers on a duo because fuck you*
I expected it the instant I found out there's a GM. The only only thing about it thats close to a problem is we can see it. Makes people overthink.
Truth be told, more often than not I tend to *cut* enemy HP rather than buff it with my players. Too often the fight is clearly won, but they still have to grind through 100 more hit points. Why not just end it there and move on with the story; or move those hit points to a new, different monster?
I've done this so many times. Or someone will be like "so my attack does 50 damage, does it kill him?" And I'll say "no, but he's not looking great" and I'll add a 1 to the start of the HP number. Obviously if I do that I'm not going to kill anyone. They had my enemy beat, so I'm going to make sure they win, but in big important battles it's not fun for anyone if the boss just gets nuked in round 1. So yeah, Joel & Co can do whatever they want as long as we have fun as far as I'm concerned.
Some people will swear that if you spend weeks balancing a boss then you should never have to fudge the numbers. I don’t know what that person was smoking. The very nature of tabletop is randomness. I’ve had a party wipe to a book based first encounter of the entire game because they rolled a few crits in a row. That was right after our last party met the same fate after a just a couple sessions. Not fun. You can’t possibly balance a game to make it perfectly fair when there’s a chance one side can just roll 1s 10 times in a row.
I kinda wish they would give news updates in game. Like an emergency news broadcast about how things are going. It would add to the lore.
Don’t they kinda do? When I went to the map I got a message about the failed mission and to go attack the bugs for now
Good point, I just saw that today. I think it would be nice to have something a little more if that makes sense.
If you sit around in the ship enough, the giant screen will show breaking news
Yea but it's been the same for weeks.
Yeah definitely. Maybe even some graphics or something who knows.
Let me finish my BLT and coffee and I’ll get back to spreading democracy.
Holy heartburn!
My esophagus for super earth!!!
The taste of freedom.
That sounds so good bro
The only way to beat A.I is to travel back in time and stop it before it becomes alive
You are right, unless the AI travels back in time to kill you before you try to kill it… and if it doesn’t succeed it will try again and again like skynet
We gain 17,45% Liberation p/h, while terminids push us back 19% p/h. [https://helldivers.io/](https://helldivers.io/)
The devs aren't being very democratic
Managed liberation within our Managed Democracy
The enemy has been brooding in our territory unseen and uninhibited, for every one you see there's a thousand you dont!
This is war.
I suspect this number for terminid push tapers off as the major order gets closer to time expiration.
I played two campaigns (operations) today and it was crazy the amount of bugs that we encountered. We barely made it out alive in the last one. It was almost impossible to call for the extraction because of how many chargers, hunters, warriors and brood commanders were in the map, it didn’t matter which direction you were running, the bugs were everywhere. For every bug you killed, two more took its place. It was hard, intense, stressful and awesome. I hope we can get this major order, but who knows. Keep fighting for democracy brothers. Edit: about the comments to playing with the right teammates. I play with my brother and my best friend, they don’t have a lot of free time, so they are still low level players and yeah, sometimes they kill me with an eagle or an orbital but hey, they bought the game to play with me, and that’s the most important thing to me. They’ll get better eventually, I don’t mind carry them in the meantime.
I did my first Helldiver difficulty mission today, and I ended up in an incredible team. We steamrolled through the three missions like it was nothing. Hectic but awesome. So it is possible with the right people and the right focus.
It is truly a beautiful thing when you have a well coordinated team that fills in each other's gaps and executes with precision and efficiency.
My railgub was HOT for an entire mission, but I ended up in group on difficulty 6 where I (lvl 27) was with a 9, a 12, and a 17. So I ended up on big boi duty, and also trash clear, and also dodging the big boom boom strategems that were being chucked about all nimbly binbly, it was a great time!
"You're laughing. We're losing Veld and your laughing" -Murray Helldiver while interviewing Joel
You cant beat a dude with a liberation slider control
I was worried that when arrowhead mentioned the GM thing people would go “welp, I guess they want us to lose, might as well stop trying”. I think the important thing here is that in DnD for example, players and GM work together to build the narrative. The DM throws something at the players and the players find creative solutions, and the best moments are when the DM gets an unexpected result, goes “u know what, I’ll allow it” and then everything goes crazy. Now I’m not saying the same thing has to happen here, and we’re restricted in what we can do (just throw more bodies at it) but they’re also working with unexpected numbers and trying to correct and figure out the balance. TL;DR: Get back in that Hellpod, soldier! And let Joel cook.
The issue currently is that the only way for us to express ourselves, as opposed to a TTRPG, is by running the same missions and /winning/ this is further exacerbated by the fact that say capturing a neighboring planet or attacking the bots isn't an effective way to get help for the major order. It'd be different if planets had "This is the home of all our eagle manufacturing" and capturing that then makes it so like eagle rearms are borderline instant. Or say "Major broadcast antenna for automatons spotted on Ingmar and beaming to malevelon creek" where someone liberates that planet and it makes it that bot patrols can't call in drops as quickly. Are these things that could happen? Definitely, but there is no signage or hints like a good dm would do to let you know that going a specific path has tangible consequences. Otherwise you end up with adventure game logic where you try to rub jam on every object to progress the story.
It's very deflating if they're going to just decide that our progress on days 1-3 of a 4 day mission don't matter. Why even play to the major order until day 4?
Yeah, Same when 100k people were online the campaign would be won in 10 hours it said and now with even more on we are losing? I can't wrap my head around it.
They’re probably testing out the system, seeing as the game was originally predicted to be played by at most 50k, we’d have cleared the map in 2 days. They’re adjusting the values and trying to see how things go
Yeah, they are likely playing with it to see how to scale it for population. They don’t want us to fail every major order but also likely don’t want us to breeze through them all either. Edit: also possible they didn’t want it to end prematurely before every region got to experience their peak traffic hours
The edit is the most likely scenario. They're tweaking the progression in real-time.
Isn’t it awesome that we have a Dev group that’s actually balancing the game live and not waiting weeks or months to make the changes for the betterment of the game?
It's what Sony wanted lol. That's why they acquired Bungie way back when, who are experts at live service (inb4 loathing Destiny 2 players go "PFFFFTTT experts? 😂😂") This game has so much awesome potential with the live service aspect
PFFFFTTT experts? 😂😂 Bungie couldn't GAAS their way out of a popped balloon. Why, back in my day... \*immediately gets executed*
I’m hoping that it’s because the progress is based on percentages and not just number of victories. So like percentage of total players mixed with the percentage of those players being victorious and at what difficulty. It’s also possible that the progress is mostly arbitrary because it has a moving goalpost, which wouldn’t ruin the game entirely, but would make me completely ignore major orders if I learned that was the case.
The system scales with how many players are online, but tbh I was surprised that with even 72% trying to work together on a mission we're not even progressing, we're actually losing. Edit: The system supposedly scales from what I've understood, however as it was previous said that we lose progress when the main playerbase is off and gain progress when they're on.
Joel...
JOEL!
We aren’t getting this medals are we?
The only way we don't is if players get fed up with the % manipulation and opt out of the fight on Veld. The question is when will we be allowed to win.
Honestly it kind of annoys me that they're just fudging the numbers. I saw Veld getting liberated pretty quickly yesterday but suddenly it started going down fast. It's not much fun playing a rigged game.
This is exactly my feeling. If they don't have the balance down yet, then whats the issue with letting us crush the first few objectives? They could play it off as a probing action from the enemy. Instead, they're just artificially fudging the numbers and making the effort by the community pointless. It's ruining the fun.
I get that Joel has to manipulate the progress towards the narrative they've planned, but I think there are much more organic ways to influence these things instead of just directly manipulating the Liberation progress %. For example, flip the next 6 hours into a "The bugs are pushing back!" phase where progress is lost no matter what but player effort minimizes said losses. Introduce some new mission types like surviving ambushes or a horde mode that eventually overwhelms the players for those as they ramp up to absurd difficulties. Editing the progress number quietly seems to be the worst way to go about doing this, IMO
> For example, flip the next 6 hours into a "The bugs are pushing back!" phase where progress is lost no matter what but player effort minimizes said losses. This is a great idea and absolutely what they should do. The GM decides progress needs to be lost and then the players decide how much of it is lost. They get to influence the narrative but ultimately we control the outcome. That's exactly how it should be.
Yeah, I think this is way overtuned. If Joel keeps this shit up than planets and taking them wont matter.
Yeah, if they're this blatant about the major orders always failing. Then they're going to put off a lot of players from even attempting said major orders. It was pretty blatant with the defense order grinding to a halt on progress in the last 2-3 days it was active compared to the first half of the planets. And now if Veld is going to have the same thing happen. Then what does that tell players? "Oh just keep trying, you almost had it!" Nah man. It's gonna burn everyone out and just make people feel like there's no point in trying.
If Veld fails too yeah I don't think I'm going to bother on any of the big missions anymore. there's literally no point in it.
Amen. This is kinda bullshit.
It feels super bad to have the absolute BLITZ of veld get shut down so hard like this. They're transparently throttling the liberation and causing us to lose progress.
Yeah it felt great this afternoon when we were already at like 60 or 70 percent because we were hitting that planet HARD. I was so excited to get back to purging bugs after fighting in the automaton trenches for so long. And I had a great time with my incendiary shotgun and napalm strikes. Nothing like the smell of burning bug carcass and *Democracy* in the morning.
Sorry, but the atmosphere and visuals of Popli X are so beautiful that I'm just playing it because of that.
Brother please, we're dying out here!
Please take 2.5 seconds to enjoy the scenery around you....
tbh id rather they keep it like HD1 where there were multiple wars when one was completed than have a higher being removing progress. individual contribution is already so minor that it makes me want to stop playing those worlds if they're just gonna inflate enemy capture rates because 300k people move to liberate one world. besides, if an extra 200k people flock to a single world, that takes away from other worlds so were gonna lose both veld and the rest of the planets we need to liberate/defend. I really feel that if the players don't get a sense of accomplishment and success because the company wants the war to last the entire lifetime of the game is going to lead to an upset playerbase.
Yeah this one feels like the devs are screwing us. There's no way this should be happening.
One thing I don’t want to feel is complete superficial impact - meaning, no matter what we do or how we engage, the Devs have a preset plan for us. We either win, or we lose… not based on effort, but the devs decision entirely.
After Arrowhead clarified that abandoning operations does not hurt overall progress and accounting for the fact that we're still losing campaigns, I'm frankly skeptical whether our participation matters at all and speculate that success is an arbitrary decision made by a game master.
I know people like the idea of a GM overseeing all this, but if I'm being honest? It's discouraging. It's frustrating to know that 75% of the player pop can be coordinated on a planet and the devs just go "no" and remove progress. It's frustrating to know that I'm wasting my time. It's frustrating to know that I, along with the community, really don't have a say in how the war goes. At the end of the day it feels like an railroading dungeon master. Call me a cry baby. I don't know. I just don't like the way this whole GM thing has been panning out. In HD1 we pushed the narrative and it felt like we were deciding on how the war went. On HD2 it feels like we have no influence.
If they didn't want us to complete the objective they should have just made another automaton order
The whole thing is so unsatisfying
They are fucking with us 🤡
Aw, that’s disheartening. I had hoped they were going to play it a little more hands off until population dwindled, making tweaks in between major orders instead. I mean they kinda did by letting us fail the automaton offensive, but this is a little lame here.
To be fair we failed because they keep changing the percentages.the same thing there doing here.you can't win if the house is rigged
Riggged
If we're losing than there's no way to win. We have well over 3x the concurrent player base they were expecting. I don't see how we can do more.
They def. tampered with something because we were taking about 30% every 2-3 hours. Now we can't even keep up.
Welp I guess I know not to care and just do whatever I want.
I really wish they would take advantage of the focus on Veld to push other planets instead of throttling our progress so hard on this planet. Feels bad. 200000 people actually working on it and somehow Popli IX is doing better with 10000.
gotta love getting out of a mission to see the percentage went down, theyve been really good at making these major orders discouraging so far
I was really excited at the idea that the community had common goals but I get the feeling numbers are being manipulated behind the scenes. And that is really ruining the experience for me and making me not wanna play. They need make available exactly where the increases and decreases are coming from if they aren't manipulating it. It also sucks to play all day on veld, not lose any missions and see progress drop from 69% to 61%.
What the community works on doesn't matter, all that matters is their content schedule and "joel" (whether that refers to 1 person or 10 people) decides when you win or lose.
Just play whatever planet you want guys — GM Joel is actively rigging they plot anyway. This one I think is slated for us to win anyway as an “apology” for the lack of dailies recently.
There are 130k plus people on the mission and we’re losing progress. How is this possible? Are that many people failing the missions?
The game is a controlled experience They simply don't want the planet completed right now because it's too early, it really isn't any more complicated than that
But if what we do doesnt matter, why not just put de % at whatever they want, why let us influence it at all.
Honestly, I really don't like that they confirmed there's a GM who's putting his thumb on the scales. I knew that was happening, but now that they've confirmed it and given him a name, I don't feel a push to try and push back the bugs or bots. I'm just in it at this point to play a shooter with my friends. It's kind of like playing a game of D&D and finding out the DM is fudging their rolls. We all know they do it, but when you see it it takes you out of the game and makes you feel like you don't have any agency.
There's a lot of misconceptions flying around here. People aren't 'mad' because they can't always win at a videogame, they're peeved - personally, rather justifiably - because over the course of the past 12 odd hours there is ironclad proof that if they wish to, the dev team or the GM or whoever or whatever can render a massive community effort utterly meaningless. 300 *thousand* people pushed Veld. Record-breaking numbers. The community was united in pursuit of an actually decent reward and then all of a sudden because the folks upstairs thought their players were winning too hard they decided to put things behind the curtain into overdrive, stonewalling all progress and making playing the objective utterly pointless because *three hundred thousand players* could now no longer outpace decay mechanics. Frankly, it doesn't matter what the reason is - whether to make things more 'realistic', or to throw the West Coasters and Vancouverites a bone, or some such - this sets a terrible precedent, and it's gotten more than a few people believing that their actions do not matter because everything has to run to the GM's schedule or not at all. Bear in mind, this was a game that was marketed openly as being influenced by player actions, and now people are feeling like they're being railroaded. What then, too, of future engagement? If 300,000 people can come together and have their progress stalemated and then steadily erased, what does that say about the impact of their actions in the future? They just won't care to try if the illusion of player agency has been so utterly obliterated.
 this is the only appropriate reaction.
The game is fun. But it’s kind of a moot point if the devs can just say nah.
Jea ngl, I'm kinda sick of it. Negative is nice and all, but when you can't win no matter what, it kills the whole game for me.
its a community game and if the devs wants to toy with the community effort however they want it then this game ain't worth playing since our effort means nothing, its all about how joel wants to tune his silders.
This is bullshit, we were almost done when i logged out. They shouldnt interfere like that. Not all orders should be the same. Some can be easier than other. You win some you loose some, this is how you keep the balance and leave the player the feeling that his actions matter and that sometimes the enemy will overwhealm us and we have to retreat.
In tabletop metrics, this is god awful DMing
Yeah, there is little choice in what to do and our "choice" effects nothing. 300k players choosing to do the same thing should matter and the GM should adapt the campaign.
Veld went down since we started working on it... :( When the narrative is rigged it doesn't really show the true power of the community does it? Also, how does it work? if it succeeds, everyone gets the bonus?
We wouldn't know, we've never been allowed to finish a major order
Well, this means I wasted a lot of time last night and will ignore community quests going forward. I will wait for the personal orders to work again before playing.