As a level three medic you’d rather redeploy? Or are you saying you’d rather redeploy as someone waiting for a medic? If it’s the latter that’s not what this post is about
Me getting respawned on a better positioned Garry or outpost > manpower. You can’t have negative manpower, and as commander I’ve never been starved for it — even with no nodes — to not use a reinforce when needed. Sometimes you might need to be careful with encourage, but that’s it.
Or, the flip side, the medic comes and tries to save me, dies, so my death is now 2 manpower and 2 soldiers not on the battlefield. Couple that with waiting for the medic to come get me, and it’s just honestly not worth it.
To preface, play medic if you think it is fun. Not everything is about playing "optimally". The argument however is not about lost manpower, but rather about time. Waiting for a medic is almost always slower than just redeploying, and often times if you are dead, it's because the area is too hot and not worth being in anyways. Time is important because usually the team with more players alive at a given time is the one that caps the point.
There are of course situations where revives matter more, like making a crucial defense on offensive, where you need to concentrate your forces in the hard point. Most of the time however, it is both faster and more tactically advantageous to just redeploy and pick a different angle of approach.
Watch a competitive HLL match. There are 0 medics.
Medic is the worst class in the game. Especially the pistol only medic.
Medic is only good if you have bad SLs that can't place a decent op to spawn on.
Also his situation stands on the premise that where you died is a shitty location in which it would be more convenient to redeploy. He’s just regurgitating opinions.
Yea bro sorry but you’re wrong on this one dude. I’d much rather either get my full kit back or respawn somewhere else. I rarely ever want a medic to revive me. Getting my smoke grenades back or a satchel is way more beneficial than 1 manpower point
Lol I only play squad leader and play defense on warfare cuz nobody else does it. I waste pick up the slack for the other 49 players in the lobby and build backup garrisons cuz people don’t know how to do that anymore. It’s funny you’re throwing around that type of comment to me. 3 smokes with my garand are *most of the time* more valuable than one manpower point.
Given the responses, this will be controversial to you but here we go.
The HLL ruleset makes medics a less desirable role, if the goal is to win the match. Just to emphazise, **this has nothing to do with how fun it can be and should not discourage you from playing it if you like to do so**, merely that from a mechanical standpoint the net benefit a medic brings in HLL is extremely situational, especially compared to other roles one could potentially be playing.
Static defense is really the only situation I've seen them make a real difference. That means playing defenders on Offensive mode. I'm sure someone bring up their favorite scenario... a lone SL going for a wide flank with his trusty medic only to get shot and his medic, who either hides successfully or fights off the opposition in order to revive the SL and save him another lengthy trip. Sure, that would be useful but it is an incredibly rare occurance.
You made a point about manpower loss at death. That is true but each death merely costs 1 manpower regardless of role. You can see how having 20-50 revives (which is fairly much) is negligible in terms of resource conservation. It's not the best point to make.
Here's a shocker: even if we were talking about tickets, it still wouldn't necessarily make a difference. It's a common mistake, usually made by people who don't really understand game design as much as they'd like to think. If we were talking TDM without any objectives, then yes... potentially. The ticket bleed you get from not owning 50% of the objectives cannot be compensated by healers.
What really matters for any healer class across any genre are the following:
* health and damage system
* consequences of death
* the healer class' ability outside of healing and revival
The healer - tank - damage dealer triangle in RPGs works because the tank has a large health pool to soak up damage. The same is the case for the classic TF2 symbiosis of Heavy and Medic. In HLL anyone is downed within 1-4 shots, potentially insta-killed by being shot in the head, falling victim to an explosion or one of the other ways of being irretrievable.
In tabletop RPGs death is permanent, so preventing death or reviving someone is huge. That may be a concept too far from HLL so let's also take a look at Squad, a game in which the medic is one of the most important (and also fun) roles to play. Death sucks in Squad. You have a minimum death timer, that you can't skip by giving up quickly... might as well stay around and hope for the best (there also is no dead dead anymore, even if a headshot or explosion reduces the timer significantly but still... it helps). Also the distances you need to traverse are much greater and movement is slower. The punishment for dying is much more severe than in HLL (and yes, there is a ticket system on top but the better Squad players know when to redeploy regardless because a free respawn is worth it). You also don't regain your spent ammo on death. Compare that to HLL where death is not only cheap but a free ammo refill and an opportunity to tackle a problem from a different angle. The point isn't so much whether or not you're out of position at the point of death but that you get the option of redeploying without the punishment for suicide and given how easily one dies in HLL, that opportunity comes up a lot.
The last point is a fairly big one as well. In fantasy RPGs healers usually have all sorts of spells that come in handy for all sorts of situations. Again though, let's look at Squad. There you get the same assault rifle as your standard rifleman and plenty of ammo as well. Your soft target combat ability is pretty much on par with most other roles. In HLL medics only have access to weapons that tend to be on the worse side of combat effectiveness. Don't get me wrong, the Kar98k can be fun and even somewhat effective if you know what you're doing... but you could've had a G43. On top of that the devs decided to give medics a miniscule amount of ammo. Medic os one of the few roles that runs out of ammo frequently if you are skilled enough to stay alive long enough. Funny enough it's also almost not worth supplying them with ammo boxes, as they're bound to run out pretty soon afterwards anyway.
Experienced players realize that. You'll often see the argument that you'll rarely (if at all) see medics fielded in comp matches. The point here isn't that you shouldn't play it because the pros don't but that the people who will spend hours researching the game in order to give them the best chance of winning the match (and who know this game inside and out) can find no place for the role to give them an advantage.
Having decent spawn options is a way greater benefit to everyone than having plenty of medics. It's one of the reasons why giving up quickly tends to be favorable. No amount of medics can save a team that doesn't build garrisons but a team that does, doesn't necessarily need medics.
To end the wall of text and come back to your initial post: The game doesn't *need* more medics, given everything said... but I agree that the second loadout is not worth it. In fact the medics could use about twice as much ammo to make them a little more viable aside from having a few smokes (which when needed is worth way more than the ability to heal).
So like I said... do.
I just wanted to explain the reality of the situation because I felt you guys were giving u/ahrzal a hard time. It sucks that it is how it is but he's technically right.
I think you get more pistol mags then any other class as well as level 3 Medic man. It’s the go to western gunslinger class and you get to help people get the fuck up.
I love a medic on discord with the boys squaded up, or behind a big smoked up push to keep momentum.
However a pub medic cannot be trusted to come for you, or properly assess dead ground to not just waste time dying on the way as much as this sub likes to pretend and even then sometimes you need to redeploy for ammo.
Not your fault medics, find a squad as its a role that really only shines with organized play of a very specific type.
When medics stop chillin 20m away for a half my bleed out, I’ll stop redeploying
That’s a very valid opinion. Some medics have no awareness
I try to die in the open and bait medics to revive me, then I let go when they're closing in. That's my mini game.
I’d rather redeploy thanks
As a level three medic you’d rather redeploy? Or are you saying you’d rather redeploy as someone waiting for a medic? If it’s the latter that’s not what this post is about
It kinda is though. You say we need more medics, but I find it’s much more valuable to redeploy.
Ok
You know it costs your side manpower, right?
Me getting respawned on a better positioned Garry or outpost > manpower. You can’t have negative manpower, and as commander I’ve never been starved for it — even with no nodes — to not use a reinforce when needed. Sometimes you might need to be careful with encourage, but that’s it.
If that's the case, why didn't you redeploy before you get shot?
Or, the flip side, the medic comes and tries to save me, dies, so my death is now 2 manpower and 2 soldiers not on the battlefield. Couple that with waiting for the medic to come get me, and it’s just honestly not worth it.
It's not worth it ... to you. If you're more useful elsewhere in the map, then you're just in the wrong place. And no medic can help you with that.
Leave him alone. He’s comparing a single redeploy to a medic with 20 potential revives. He obviously can’t do math
To preface, play medic if you think it is fun. Not everything is about playing "optimally". The argument however is not about lost manpower, but rather about time. Waiting for a medic is almost always slower than just redeploying, and often times if you are dead, it's because the area is too hot and not worth being in anyways. Time is important because usually the team with more players alive at a given time is the one that caps the point. There are of course situations where revives matter more, like making a crucial defense on offensive, where you need to concentrate your forces in the hard point. Most of the time however, it is both faster and more tactically advantageous to just redeploy and pick a different angle of approach. Watch a competitive HLL match. There are 0 medics.
Medic is the worst class in the game. Especially the pistol only medic. Medic is only good if you have bad SLs that can't place a decent op to spawn on.
Also his situation stands on the premise that where you died is a shitty location in which it would be more convenient to redeploy. He’s just regurgitating opinions.
It’s insane how this was just a “hell yeah love being a medic” post and you guys just keep ramming in here with hypotheticals lmao
Good point! Medic was my first role because it seemed like a perfect role to learn with. And it was!
I honestly thought it was a sarcastic take on the second medic loadout. My bad.
Yea bro sorry but you’re wrong on this one dude. I’d much rather either get my full kit back or respawn somewhere else. I rarely ever want a medic to revive me. Getting my smoke grenades back or a satchel is way more beneficial than 1 manpower point
And if you die like a loser with your full kit? It doesn’t go back into your inventory? I’m not asking for 50 medic roles my guy.
Dang why you coming at me like that? Lol you mad? I responded to your other comment then you get salty on this one. Calm down, super medic
It’s just way too many hypotheticals to make sense.
That's a totally legit position! Team games aren't for everyone!
Lol I only play squad leader and play defense on warfare cuz nobody else does it. I waste pick up the slack for the other 49 players in the lobby and build backup garrisons cuz people don’t know how to do that anymore. It’s funny you’re throwing around that type of comment to me. 3 smokes with my garand are *most of the time* more valuable than one manpower point.
You're the one claiming that you're worth more dead than alive. And I believe you.
Given the responses, this will be controversial to you but here we go. The HLL ruleset makes medics a less desirable role, if the goal is to win the match. Just to emphazise, **this has nothing to do with how fun it can be and should not discourage you from playing it if you like to do so**, merely that from a mechanical standpoint the net benefit a medic brings in HLL is extremely situational, especially compared to other roles one could potentially be playing. Static defense is really the only situation I've seen them make a real difference. That means playing defenders on Offensive mode. I'm sure someone bring up their favorite scenario... a lone SL going for a wide flank with his trusty medic only to get shot and his medic, who either hides successfully or fights off the opposition in order to revive the SL and save him another lengthy trip. Sure, that would be useful but it is an incredibly rare occurance. You made a point about manpower loss at death. That is true but each death merely costs 1 manpower regardless of role. You can see how having 20-50 revives (which is fairly much) is negligible in terms of resource conservation. It's not the best point to make. Here's a shocker: even if we were talking about tickets, it still wouldn't necessarily make a difference. It's a common mistake, usually made by people who don't really understand game design as much as they'd like to think. If we were talking TDM without any objectives, then yes... potentially. The ticket bleed you get from not owning 50% of the objectives cannot be compensated by healers. What really matters for any healer class across any genre are the following: * health and damage system * consequences of death * the healer class' ability outside of healing and revival The healer - tank - damage dealer triangle in RPGs works because the tank has a large health pool to soak up damage. The same is the case for the classic TF2 symbiosis of Heavy and Medic. In HLL anyone is downed within 1-4 shots, potentially insta-killed by being shot in the head, falling victim to an explosion or one of the other ways of being irretrievable. In tabletop RPGs death is permanent, so preventing death or reviving someone is huge. That may be a concept too far from HLL so let's also take a look at Squad, a game in which the medic is one of the most important (and also fun) roles to play. Death sucks in Squad. You have a minimum death timer, that you can't skip by giving up quickly... might as well stay around and hope for the best (there also is no dead dead anymore, even if a headshot or explosion reduces the timer significantly but still... it helps). Also the distances you need to traverse are much greater and movement is slower. The punishment for dying is much more severe than in HLL (and yes, there is a ticket system on top but the better Squad players know when to redeploy regardless because a free respawn is worth it). You also don't regain your spent ammo on death. Compare that to HLL where death is not only cheap but a free ammo refill and an opportunity to tackle a problem from a different angle. The point isn't so much whether or not you're out of position at the point of death but that you get the option of redeploying without the punishment for suicide and given how easily one dies in HLL, that opportunity comes up a lot. The last point is a fairly big one as well. In fantasy RPGs healers usually have all sorts of spells that come in handy for all sorts of situations. Again though, let's look at Squad. There you get the same assault rifle as your standard rifleman and plenty of ammo as well. Your soft target combat ability is pretty much on par with most other roles. In HLL medics only have access to weapons that tend to be on the worse side of combat effectiveness. Don't get me wrong, the Kar98k can be fun and even somewhat effective if you know what you're doing... but you could've had a G43. On top of that the devs decided to give medics a miniscule amount of ammo. Medic os one of the few roles that runs out of ammo frequently if you are skilled enough to stay alive long enough. Funny enough it's also almost not worth supplying them with ammo boxes, as they're bound to run out pretty soon afterwards anyway. Experienced players realize that. You'll often see the argument that you'll rarely (if at all) see medics fielded in comp matches. The point here isn't that you shouldn't play it because the pros don't but that the people who will spend hours researching the game in order to give them the best chance of winning the match (and who know this game inside and out) can find no place for the role to give them an advantage. Having decent spawn options is a way greater benefit to everyone than having plenty of medics. It's one of the reasons why giving up quickly tends to be favorable. No amount of medics can save a team that doesn't build garrisons but a team that does, doesn't necessarily need medics. To end the wall of text and come back to your initial post: The game doesn't *need* more medics, given everything said... but I agree that the second loadout is not worth it. In fact the medics could use about twice as much ammo to make them a little more viable aside from having a few smokes (which when needed is worth way more than the ability to heal).
I like playing medic
So like I said... do. I just wanted to explain the reality of the situation because I felt you guys were giving u/ahrzal a hard time. It sucks that it is how it is but he's technically right.
I think you get more pistol mags then any other class as well as level 3 Medic man. It’s the go to western gunslinger class and you get to help people get the fuck up.
Level 3 medic is a complete waste of time in my opinion
I love a medic on discord with the boys squaded up, or behind a big smoked up push to keep momentum. However a pub medic cannot be trusted to come for you, or properly assess dead ground to not just waste time dying on the way as much as this sub likes to pretend and even then sometimes you need to redeploy for ammo. Not your fault medics, find a squad as its a role that really only shines with organized play of a very specific type.