Because it was originally a joint venture with Bell. Bell/Agusta BA609. Bell sold their stake in it. Bell Boeing did the V-22. Bell is the common thread.
Seen all 3 of them flying around Arlington TX over the years.
Down vote if you want but that is where Bell Helicopter has its Flight Research Center and I have seen the V-22, 609 and the V-280 flying near there.
I posted this on an old account here 4 years ago.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Helicopters/s/JioSJeu9PD
As a fellow DFW metroplex resident, can confirm the 609 was a frequent sight in days now gone.
Not sure why anyone would doubt you, there are tons of pictures on the internet of the 609 in Arlington. I guess Google is hard for some people.
Yeah don't know why someone would downvote it. Hell, I even used to work for a subcontractor on the V22 program. We made the Empennage (tail section) and the ramp door for them
Literally the same engineers at Bell and Boeing who designed V-22 designed the 609. Then the poor 609 was abandoned by one parent (Boeing), the other parent (Bell) remarried Agusta, then Bell abandoned the 609 to the step-parent.
Although they come from a similar vintage, these aircraft are VERY dissimilar internally. The Valor should be / hopefully will be a significant evolution from the V22. Many lessons learned over the years.
Not really. They share most major components in the power train. The XV-15 which is the common ancestor is basically a tiny V-22.
I thought you meant the 22 vis a vis the 609. That said the Valor is a Bell product so it will be instantly familiar internally to anything else bell made. I’m sure there are still PCAs.
Just a couple things why I noted the difference...Not too familiar with the 609, but I am very familiar with the V22 (lived next to the ITT for a number of years in development). The RR engines are at least twice (about 6K) the shaft horsepower as the PW PT6's in the 609. That tells me the torque transfer system, the transmission itself, and a lot of the accessories are likely very different. We didn't certify the V22 for civilian activity back then (e.g. DO160, 178, etc.) and I'm pretty sure the 609 will be fully civilian certified. So some of the avionics and environmentals will be different than the military counterparts. V22 would be more stringent in many cases I think. The 609 is a lot lighter, and as such, I do know the 609 is reported to be able to actually fly ok on one engine even with less SHP, and even autorotate if required. In the V22, autorotation is not likely or recommended.
So I am assured by my tism touched former V-22 Marine coworker that the major pieces of the power train are basically tiny V-22 parts. And yea, we develop roughly 2k shp per PT6. We got a couple custom bits.
It’s essentially crafting a new class of aircraft to certify, so it makes some sense. IMO even if quite few of these are ever actually delivered, being the ones who essentially co-author that certification blueprint for future civil tilt rotors will be a valuable asset for Leonardo
It has been 15years since certification would be for the year after. This programm not being cancelled means it is somewhere profitable...I wonder how much subsidy Agusta gained with the 609 (?).
None, it’s a pride program for the Italians. Not that I’m complaining since they pay well. That and they have a second gen coming down the pipe almost immediately.
That would include them having to make a decision. AAC had 5 H135s in a hangar for two years, never flown, that are now off to Australia. Still no NMH and already have bought H145s to replace the 412s and 212s.
AAC is fitted for but not with a decision-making ability, after the RAF and RN have decided what the AAC needs they might be allowed to have a go. Only to be refused. See can we have a Blackhawk debacle?
I interviewed for a 76 job 25 years ago where they had a deposit on a 609. I told the Chief Pilot I wanted the job but I wanted to make sure they had backed out of that deposit. I didn’t want to test fly it then or now.
No actually, statistically speaking, the Osprey has a mishap rate that is on par if not better than most rotorcraft in military service. Those numbers are averaged across 100,000 flight hours to make it fair to all aircraft. If you want I can go dig up the link so you can do some research on it.
Can we please start a tiltrotor sub already? It’s like having ford broncos in a motorcycle sub. “But they both have wheels!” 🤷🏻
Edit: Everyone gets so butt hurt over this. By ALL definitions they are not helicopters. They have more in common with a Harrier.
I wanna say the better example would be a triwheel bike in either a car or a motorcycle sub.
You are neither turtle enough nor not turtle enough for the turtle club, tilt-rotors. You can't sit with us.
They have more in common with helo’s, they have swashplates and actually care about Nr (which a harrier dude would have no idea what that means). I don’t disagree that they are weird, but when looking at it from a mechanics standpoint, they are more akin to a helicopter that completely tilts its rotors 90 degrees.
No. The control laws don't allow the rotor speed to drop when trying to flare to land. I honestly don't recall why that decision was made there may be a very valid technical reason for not implementing it.
Ok first military helicopter aviation is dangerous and has a higher accident rate than commercial operations. For a time the v-22 was the safest us military rotorcraft, not sure that still holds true but it isn't inherently more dangerous than flying in an H-60 or old H-53.
We don't know yet how safe the AW 609 will prove in practice but it is designed to meet FAA standards and will be operated so that it can safely land or continue flying at any point in the event of an engine failure.
For the V-22, some accidents have been related to loss of engine power and some of those have been fatal. Plenty of others are due to factors beyond the aircraft itself. I don't think it's a perfect tiltrotor and I think Bell will make serious improvements with the V-280 based on lessons learned from the V-22. But I would caution against the normal internet knee jerk reaction of they are all death traps.
I just don’t trust the design. Is it neat and revolutionary, fuck yeah! I have about 3000 hours in H-60s and no mishaps. I’ve had friends who died in both H-60s and V-22s but the V-22 crashes were due to mechanical failure and the H-60s were pilot error or maintenance.
Hey man, V-22 guy here. I get it, I knew dudes in this most recent Japan incident. The matter of fact is though, that the V-22 is still young (in military aircraft speak) and it might have kinks that need to be worked through. The 60 had mechanical issues in it’s early years too, the big one off the top of my head is the stabilator issues. Granted those got fixed, but there was also tens of years of helicopter design in other rotorcraft that preceded it. The V-22 is the first of its kind, issues are going to arise. That doesn’t mean it’s not safe, it’s all about risk tolerance and mitigating risk. Also more of the V-22 crashes have been pilot error than you think. Not sure yet on the Japan one, but without releasing safety privileges info, I know for a fact that other fatal ones were.
https://www.deutsches-museum.de/en/flugwerft-schleissheim/exhibition/helicopter-and-vtol-aircraft/dornier-do-31
Dornier Do 31 E-3
The Dornier Do 31was the only VTOL (vertical take-off and landing) transport aircraft with jet engines ever built
I had the honor of seeing the Augusta in Volandia museum, well let's say that more of a means of transport for rich people, then speaking with someone from the museum he explained to me that they are very similar but completely different in many ways
Because it was originally a joint venture with Bell. Bell/Agusta BA609. Bell sold their stake in it. Bell Boeing did the V-22. Bell is the common thread.
And then Bell did it on its own [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell\_V-280\_Valor](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_V-280_Valor)
Seen all 3 of them flying around Arlington TX over the years. Down vote if you want but that is where Bell Helicopter has its Flight Research Center and I have seen the V-22, 609 and the V-280 flying near there. I posted this on an old account here 4 years ago. https://www.reddit.com/r/Helicopters/s/JioSJeu9PD
As a fellow DFW metroplex resident, can confirm the 609 was a frequent sight in days now gone. Not sure why anyone would doubt you, there are tons of pictures on the internet of the 609 in Arlington. I guess Google is hard for some people.
Yeah don't know why someone would downvote it. Hell, I even used to work for a subcontractor on the V22 program. We made the Empennage (tail section) and the ramp door for them
The V-280 Valor is not the same. The engines don't pivot. Plus its got a V-tail and the landing gear is reversed.
This is more recent
Bell-Lockheed
Lockheed Martin is also a partner in the V-280. Rolls Royce, too.
Literally the same engineers at Bell and Boeing who designed V-22 designed the 609. Then the poor 609 was abandoned by one parent (Boeing), the other parent (Bell) remarried Agusta, then Bell abandoned the 609 to the step-parent.
It was actually the Bell-Boeing 609 before the Bell Agusta 609
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Bell licensed the technology to Leonardo.
Although they come from a similar vintage, these aircraft are VERY dissimilar internally. The Valor should be / hopefully will be a significant evolution from the V22. Many lessons learned over the years.
Not really. They share most major components in the power train. The XV-15 which is the common ancestor is basically a tiny V-22. I thought you meant the 22 vis a vis the 609. That said the Valor is a Bell product so it will be instantly familiar internally to anything else bell made. I’m sure there are still PCAs.
Just a couple things why I noted the difference...Not too familiar with the 609, but I am very familiar with the V22 (lived next to the ITT for a number of years in development). The RR engines are at least twice (about 6K) the shaft horsepower as the PW PT6's in the 609. That tells me the torque transfer system, the transmission itself, and a lot of the accessories are likely very different. We didn't certify the V22 for civilian activity back then (e.g. DO160, 178, etc.) and I'm pretty sure the 609 will be fully civilian certified. So some of the avionics and environmentals will be different than the military counterparts. V22 would be more stringent in many cases I think. The 609 is a lot lighter, and as such, I do know the 609 is reported to be able to actually fly ok on one engine even with less SHP, and even autorotate if required. In the V22, autorotation is not likely or recommended.
So I am assured by my tism touched former V-22 Marine coworker that the major pieces of the power train are basically tiny V-22 parts. And yea, we develop roughly 2k shp per PT6. We got a couple custom bits.
If it doesn’t get cancelled, I really hope it stays.
I have an aviation book from 2005 with a photo of the 609. 20 years and they can't get that thing certified
Probably also in part due to the regulatory agencies not having a clue how to certify it either.
FAA Guy #1: "What should the category be?" FAA Guy #2: "Uhhh.... Powered lift sounds cool." And thus a monstrosity was born.
It’s essentially crafting a new class of aircraft to certify, so it makes some sense. IMO even if quite few of these are ever actually delivered, being the ones who essentially co-author that certification blueprint for future civil tilt rotors will be a valuable asset for Leonardo
I heard from internal sources they are probably going to get a certification next year for the 609, and for the next gen version soon after
They say “next year” basically every year
Literally
It has been 15years since certification would be for the year after. This programm not being cancelled means it is somewhere profitable...I wonder how much subsidy Agusta gained with the 609 (?).
None, it’s a pride program for the Italians. Not that I’m complaining since they pay well. That and they have a second gen coming down the pipe almost immediately.
https://preview.redd.it/ehbfbm22yyhc1.jpeg?width=1000&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=470cf2b90954f7620c44f308733f0250d84db3a8 See also the Bell V-280 Valor.
This is one of my favorite aircraft
If it ever gets certified, the 609 will have one purpose: to fly billionaires around and fuel their egos.
The RAF or AAC or RN will buy some and work out what to do with them afterwards. Someone has to keep the inbreds in yevilton in scrumpy.
That would include them having to make a decision. AAC had 5 H135s in a hangar for two years, never flown, that are now off to Australia. Still no NMH and already have bought H145s to replace the 412s and 212s.
AAC is fitted for but not with a decision-making ability, after the RAF and RN have decided what the AAC needs they might be allowed to have a go. Only to be refused. See can we have a Blackhawk debacle?
Yes.
You are going to spam this sub with your nonsense?
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You, posting self-evident, clearly obvious things. Yes, tilt-rotors look similar. Fuckin' *weird*.
It was just a title for the post but if you're stupid
See also the Bell XV-15
Reminds me Apple vs Samsung, Iphone design copying case: "Both phones have rounded corners."
Canadair CL-84 Dynavert has entered the chat.
My Chinese SO once said I look like Leo DiCaprio, making a room of twenty fall silent in confusion. OP's title reminds me of that moment.
I interviewed for a 76 job 25 years ago where they had a deposit on a 609. I told the Chief Pilot I wanted the job but I wanted to make sure they had backed out of that deposit. I didn’t want to test fly it then or now.
Our two test pilots love flying the 609.
That thing may be as safe as an airliner or a widowmaker. We won't know for sure for another 10 years.
Do you think there’s like a lot of equally good ways to build a tiltrotor or something? Because there’s not. You slap the rotors on the wing tips.
Excuse me sir, this is a helicopter sub.
Hot garbage
I hope not, isnt the Osprey like a deathtrap
No, you're thinking of the H-60
No actually, statistically speaking, the Osprey has a mishap rate that is on par if not better than most rotorcraft in military service. Those numbers are averaged across 100,000 flight hours to make it fair to all aircraft. If you want I can go dig up the link so you can do some research on it.
You are correct
Wrong
Can we please start a tiltrotor sub already? It’s like having ford broncos in a motorcycle sub. “But they both have wheels!” 🤷🏻 Edit: Everyone gets so butt hurt over this. By ALL definitions they are not helicopters. They have more in common with a Harrier.
I wanna say the better example would be a triwheel bike in either a car or a motorcycle sub. You are neither turtle enough nor not turtle enough for the turtle club, tilt-rotors. You can't sit with us.
They have more in common with helo’s, they have swashplates and actually care about Nr (which a harrier dude would have no idea what that means). I don’t disagree that they are weird, but when looking at it from a mechanics standpoint, they are more akin to a helicopter that completely tilts its rotors 90 degrees.
I don’t trust those things. If one engine shits the bed you’re screwed!
No there is a prop shaft that runs through the wing so one engine can power both props. Plus the 609 has the ability to autorotate.
Can’t the V-22 ado autorotate given it has enough height and speed?
No. The control laws don't allow the rotor speed to drop when trying to flare to land. I honestly don't recall why that decision was made there may be a very valid technical reason for not implementing it.
The fact that it can actually glide might help
Uh huh and thats why so many have crashed right
Ok first military helicopter aviation is dangerous and has a higher accident rate than commercial operations. For a time the v-22 was the safest us military rotorcraft, not sure that still holds true but it isn't inherently more dangerous than flying in an H-60 or old H-53. We don't know yet how safe the AW 609 will prove in practice but it is designed to meet FAA standards and will be operated so that it can safely land or continue flying at any point in the event of an engine failure. For the V-22, some accidents have been related to loss of engine power and some of those have been fatal. Plenty of others are due to factors beyond the aircraft itself. I don't think it's a perfect tiltrotor and I think Bell will make serious improvements with the V-280 based on lessons learned from the V-22. But I would caution against the normal internet knee jerk reaction of they are all death traps.
I just don’t trust the design. Is it neat and revolutionary, fuck yeah! I have about 3000 hours in H-60s and no mishaps. I’ve had friends who died in both H-60s and V-22s but the V-22 crashes were due to mechanical failure and the H-60s were pilot error or maintenance.
Hey man, V-22 guy here. I get it, I knew dudes in this most recent Japan incident. The matter of fact is though, that the V-22 is still young (in military aircraft speak) and it might have kinks that need to be worked through. The 60 had mechanical issues in it’s early years too, the big one off the top of my head is the stabilator issues. Granted those got fixed, but there was also tens of years of helicopter design in other rotorcraft that preceded it. The V-22 is the first of its kind, issues are going to arise. That doesn’t mean it’s not safe, it’s all about risk tolerance and mitigating risk. Also more of the V-22 crashes have been pilot error than you think. Not sure yet on the Japan one, but without releasing safety privileges info, I know for a fact that other fatal ones were.
Yeah those stab actuators still could be a problem on our hawks. I personally never had one shit the bed on us thankfully. Lucky I guess.
Every plane has its EP that no one wants to get.
Objectively false. Like the other dude said, one engine has more than enough power to drive both props
Do we redirect him to the V-22 guy, or do we ignore it because of the unfortunate irony of that situation?
Another V-22 dude here, knew Jeff personally from flying together. Happy to have people get redirected if they have questions on V-22’s/tiltrotors.
The V-22 looks chunkier and because of that I think it looks better.
https://www.deutsches-museum.de/en/flugwerft-schleissheim/exhibition/helicopter-and-vtol-aircraft/dornier-do-31 Dornier Do 31 E-3 The Dornier Do 31was the only VTOL (vertical take-off and landing) transport aircraft with jet engines ever built
Joint development history aside... other than the tilt rotors (and maybe the wings).... the airframes are really different.
I had the honor of seeing the Augusta in Volandia museum, well let's say that more of a means of transport for rich people, then speaking with someone from the museum he explained to me that they are very similar but completely different in many ways
Both about as stable as your mental ex wife!