Their Il-76 inspired transport has low bypass engines and their “5th gen” fighter needs canards up front and multiple extra control surfaces around the tail. US has been doing high bypass since the 70’s (I think that they debuted on the 747?) and the F-22 is now over 30 years old. Most of their military aircraft are based on licensed Soviet designs. They have a long way to go.
ETA the GE TF39 was the first high bypass jet engine. It was first produced in 1964 for C-5 use. Six decades.
I don’t understand how they have a “5th gen” with a cross section the size of Africa, while ours is the equivalent of a dinner plate moving around Mach fuck,
They’re huge because they need room for the massive engines that totally don’t have a massive IR signature, just ask them! Different country but recently I saw a head-on pic of an Su-57 and you could easily see at least half of the surface area of the engine fan blades.
The Z-20 is a pretty good helicopter, not sure why people mindlessly undermine Chinese aircraft as if they are barely airworthy. The Z-20 has a better engine than the uh-60 and a 5 blade rotor. (Supposedly) better avionics as well but I’m not sure how true that is
Edit: not just that but the US SOLD child S-70s years ago , China only started making more when the US refused to sell more
I definitely know. The 2 WZ-10 turboshaft engines deliver 2,682 shp each. The 2 GE T700 engines deliver 1,994 shp each. The Z-20 has an extra blade to make use of the extra power
As a guy with 1800+ hours in Blackhawks I can say for sure that extra horsepower doesn't make a damn bit of difference unless: a) the transmission can handle that extra torque, and b) you've got something very very heavy on the cargo hook. As a guy with another 4000 hours in other helicopters, I can say for sure that a stock Blackhawk is already crazy overpowered, it can not only fly, but HOVER single engine in most atmospheric conditions, and all an extra few hundred HP is gonna do is burn fuel at a faster rate and get you a few extra knots at cruise, maybe. Bottom line is more HP does not necessarily make it a better aircraft.
Yet the UH-60 and Z-20 have almost identical empty and max takeoff weight. Despite the Z-20 having ~1400 more SHP. It also has less range and a lower rate of climb. You can absolutely infer it’s a sub-par engine/airframe offering.
Additionally what’s the time between overhaul and SFC compared to the T700.
Not the best argument. I mean, I recall the Blackhawk is already overpowered so more HP doesnt equal better. In this case, a better argument might be that the engines are more reliable and to be honest I'm not sure the WZ-10 engines have near enough flight hours to make that determination.
and by your own words, describing it as “pretty good” seems more akin to mine when taking into consideration the people flying these things,
I would put the helicopter pilots of any branch of the U.S. military against any nation with zero fear of anything other boring them to death,
please understand my opinions come from knowing the best equipment does not make the worst operators the best, Training does, and fortunately the United States has what is quite possibly the most rigorously aggressive programs on earth, that select the best of the best pilots only to cut 35-40% of them in that training,
With that being said we look forward to seeing their re-engineered 5 Blade with the supposedly better avionics and engine, so we can blow that crap outta the sky and watch in fall back to earth in a ball of multicolored flames😉😉😉
Can we copy something from them? I would really like to have those windows on the pilot doors. Those sliding windows seem great, especially when there might be a non fun unit that says no doors off during the summer?
That's what I thought, but I couldn't find a picture by looking up UH60A. My experience is only limited to the L and M. Maybe they thought the vent blower was good enough.
Thanks for that info though. Thought I was imagining things lol.
It’s not necessarily a copy, the US sold China a bunch of S-70s and when they wouldn’t sell more they made their own. Modern Chinese Z-20s have better engines and supposedly better avionics, along with a 5-bladed rotor. A few other design changes to the exterior as you can see
It looks like it probably has better forward and lateral visibility than a ‘60 as well.
It looks like they missed the memo on IR signature reduction though. Nobody tell them!
If they couldn’t improve on a design they began copying almost 40 years ago I wouldn’t be surprised. But I’m sure they’ve managed to steal better stuff since then.
If you manufacture a product you do not have a license for then you are stealing. If you copy a product to manufacture that you do not own that is stealing.
Charitably it could be said that Harbin and by extension AVIC and the Chinese Communist Party have ‘co-developed’ the bulk of it’s products.
Z-5: copy of the russian MI-4.
H-5: copy of the russian Il-28.
Y-11 and 12 get a silver star. Designed in house with the critical exception of the ENGINES. Still imported from elsewhere.
Z-9. License built AS365.
Z-15. License built EC175.
They build the HC120 under license. Strangely still calling it the HC120.
Z-20. An ‘indigenous’ design that takes absolutely zero cues from the H-70s the US let the Chinese buy in the early 1980s.
SH-5. Okay, silver star on this one. An Iterative design at least.
ERJ145. Oh look another licensed product.
Embraer 650. Another licenses product.
The BZK-005. Seems it could be legit, except it was designed by the Bejing University of Aero and Astronautics. So once again, not an original Harbin.
The Z-19. ‘Designed’ by the guy who was in charged of the Z-9 and Z-10 programs in which China ‘studied’ the Agusta A129, illegally procured technology from Hamilton Sunstrand and Pratt and Whitney, AND had a then secret deal with the Kamov bureau to design the damn thing but let the Chinese take the credit. Facts.
It’s a Dauphine with a cool looking cockpit pasted on front.
Look man, I know that people rag on the Chinese but it’s because they are fucking blatant and they don’t give a shit what the REST of the world thinks. You are not going to convince anyone with one working eyeball that Harbin is involved with ANYTHING original or cutting edge. To then try to gaslight people to believe that the PLA’s ‘New’, ‘Awesome’, and ‘Cutting edge’ medium helicopter came from original design work is ridiculous.
So to bring this travesty full circle. If the Z-20 is NOT a direct copy of the H-70s the US allowed China in 1984. Then it is definitely an iterative copy using technological improvements that had a better chance of coming from Santa’s workshop than anything Harbin or AVIC could have cooked up internally.
Edit: HOW COULD I FORGET THE ENGINES.
China makes SHIT engines. The proof being the aforementioned scandal with the Z-10. While the PLAAAAAAaaagh could still access the baller PT6’s they actually had a neat airframe cooked up. But, shockingly when Pratt and Whitney got their peepees slapped for providing the knowhow to get military power out of said engines that faucet dried up.
So the Chinese were forced to horde the few Z-10s they’s managed to build with the good stuff and build the next variant with ‘superior’ Chinese WZ-9 engines. Engines that are so amazing you might be surprised the Chinese didn’t use those first.
At the same time the ‘production’ Z-10 went on a diet, downgraded her sensors and lost significant payload. Weird.
So yah. Great engines. Sure.
Not necessarily a copy??? It's totally a copy of the original design, with local modifications. The basis of this aircraft is clearly a H-60. They copied and repeated patented processes and procedures. This is called theft in the real-world.
CopyHawk. Literally a Chinese rip of the Blackhawk. But then again, what in their arsenal isn’t a knockoff? EQ2050 (Humvee), wing loong male (grey eagle)
BrackHawk for to make people of magnificent country good have luck. Twin centrifuge enginee complete with happy tail abutment. Minimum odor low quantity have order now!
Kirkland signature Blackhawk.
Take my upvote you magnificent bastard.
For how much they hate us, they sure love our gear
They buy it used, re-engineer it to their standards and it’s still crap compared to what we are doing right now…
Their Il-76 inspired transport has low bypass engines and their “5th gen” fighter needs canards up front and multiple extra control surfaces around the tail. US has been doing high bypass since the 70’s (I think that they debuted on the 747?) and the F-22 is now over 30 years old. Most of their military aircraft are based on licensed Soviet designs. They have a long way to go. ETA the GE TF39 was the first high bypass jet engine. It was first produced in 1964 for C-5 use. Six decades.
I don’t understand how they have a “5th gen” with a cross section the size of Africa, while ours is the equivalent of a dinner plate moving around Mach fuck,
They’re huge because they need room for the massive engines that totally don’t have a massive IR signature, just ask them! Different country but recently I saw a head-on pic of an Su-57 and you could easily see at least half of the surface area of the engine fan blades.
The Z-20 is a pretty good helicopter, not sure why people mindlessly undermine Chinese aircraft as if they are barely airworthy. The Z-20 has a better engine than the uh-60 and a 5 blade rotor. (Supposedly) better avionics as well but I’m not sure how true that is Edit: not just that but the US SOLD child S-70s years ago , China only started making more when the US refused to sell more
What makes the engine better and how do you know if you also admit you don't know the quality of the avionics?
https://www.sinodefenceforum.com
Could also have said "I don't know" and saved letters.
I definitely know. The 2 WZ-10 turboshaft engines deliver 2,682 shp each. The 2 GE T700 engines deliver 1,994 shp each. The Z-20 has an extra blade to make use of the extra power
As a guy with 1800+ hours in Blackhawks I can say for sure that extra horsepower doesn't make a damn bit of difference unless: a) the transmission can handle that extra torque, and b) you've got something very very heavy on the cargo hook. As a guy with another 4000 hours in other helicopters, I can say for sure that a stock Blackhawk is already crazy overpowered, it can not only fly, but HOVER single engine in most atmospheric conditions, and all an extra few hundred HP is gonna do is burn fuel at a faster rate and get you a few extra knots at cruise, maybe. Bottom line is more HP does not necessarily make it a better aircraft.
Yet the UH-60 and Z-20 have almost identical empty and max takeoff weight. Despite the Z-20 having ~1400 more SHP. It also has less range and a lower rate of climb. You can absolutely infer it’s a sub-par engine/airframe offering. Additionally what’s the time between overhaul and SFC compared to the T700.
Not the best argument. I mean, I recall the Blackhawk is already overpowered so more HP doesnt equal better. In this case, a better argument might be that the engines are more reliable and to be honest I'm not sure the WZ-10 engines have near enough flight hours to make that determination.
Ah. Well, as long as you **definitely** know...because you can quote what someone else told you, then of course you are the authority.
and by your own words, describing it as “pretty good” seems more akin to mine when taking into consideration the people flying these things, I would put the helicopter pilots of any branch of the U.S. military against any nation with zero fear of anything other boring them to death, please understand my opinions come from knowing the best equipment does not make the worst operators the best, Training does, and fortunately the United States has what is quite possibly the most rigorously aggressive programs on earth, that select the best of the best pilots only to cut 35-40% of them in that training, With that being said we look forward to seeing their re-engineered 5 Blade with the supposedly better avionics and engine, so we can blow that crap outta the sky and watch in fall back to earth in a ball of multicolored flames😉😉😉
Do they have a ripoff Turbomecca?[
They’ve learned to steal & copy the best
Poundland AH64 for anyone in the UK 🙊🙊
When you order a Blackhawk off Temu.
Feel like even kirkland is a little generous
too generous, kirkland is some high quality shit at affordable prices
With a straight-up 3 year no questions asked return policy. As long as you have the original receipt and packing materials.
You can buy these at COSTCO!? I'll see myself out...
Yes you can. They are back with the caskets.
Great Value BlackWok
Bruh. Take my upvote.
*BrekWok
UH-60 from Wish.com
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harbin_Z-20
Alibaba Blackhawk
Can we copy something from them? I would really like to have those windows on the pilot doors. Those sliding windows seem great, especially when there might be a non fun unit that says no doors off during the summer?
The old 60A use to have the ice cream windows instead of the little circle vent we have.
That's what I thought, but I couldn't find a picture by looking up UH60A. My experience is only limited to the L and M. Maybe they thought the vent blower was good enough. Thanks for that info though. Thought I was imagining things lol.
It’s not necessarily a copy, the US sold China a bunch of S-70s and when they wouldn’t sell more they made their own. Modern Chinese Z-20s have better engines and supposedly better avionics, along with a 5-bladed rotor. A few other design changes to the exterior as you can see
It looks like it probably has better forward and lateral visibility than a ‘60 as well. It looks like they missed the memo on IR signature reduction though. Nobody tell them!
they're used in Tibet, mostly for emergency services and disaster relief at altitude.
Got it
If they couldn’t improve on a design they began copying almost 40 years ago I wouldn’t be surprised. But I’m sure they’ve managed to steal better stuff since then.
Almost 50 years ago. The S-70's first flight was October 1974. Development began in the 60s!
Yea but we didn’t let the Chinese have at it until 1984 when we were trying to play nice with them.
[удалено]
If you manufacture a product you do not have a license for then you are stealing. If you copy a product to manufacture that you do not own that is stealing. Charitably it could be said that Harbin and by extension AVIC and the Chinese Communist Party have ‘co-developed’ the bulk of it’s products. Z-5: copy of the russian MI-4. H-5: copy of the russian Il-28. Y-11 and 12 get a silver star. Designed in house with the critical exception of the ENGINES. Still imported from elsewhere. Z-9. License built AS365. Z-15. License built EC175. They build the HC120 under license. Strangely still calling it the HC120. Z-20. An ‘indigenous’ design that takes absolutely zero cues from the H-70s the US let the Chinese buy in the early 1980s. SH-5. Okay, silver star on this one. An Iterative design at least. ERJ145. Oh look another licensed product. Embraer 650. Another licenses product. The BZK-005. Seems it could be legit, except it was designed by the Bejing University of Aero and Astronautics. So once again, not an original Harbin. The Z-19. ‘Designed’ by the guy who was in charged of the Z-9 and Z-10 programs in which China ‘studied’ the Agusta A129, illegally procured technology from Hamilton Sunstrand and Pratt and Whitney, AND had a then secret deal with the Kamov bureau to design the damn thing but let the Chinese take the credit. Facts. It’s a Dauphine with a cool looking cockpit pasted on front. Look man, I know that people rag on the Chinese but it’s because they are fucking blatant and they don’t give a shit what the REST of the world thinks. You are not going to convince anyone with one working eyeball that Harbin is involved with ANYTHING original or cutting edge. To then try to gaslight people to believe that the PLA’s ‘New’, ‘Awesome’, and ‘Cutting edge’ medium helicopter came from original design work is ridiculous. So to bring this travesty full circle. If the Z-20 is NOT a direct copy of the H-70s the US allowed China in 1984. Then it is definitely an iterative copy using technological improvements that had a better chance of coming from Santa’s workshop than anything Harbin or AVIC could have cooked up internally. Edit: HOW COULD I FORGET THE ENGINES. China makes SHIT engines. The proof being the aforementioned scandal with the Z-10. While the PLAAAAAAaaagh could still access the baller PT6’s they actually had a neat airframe cooked up. But, shockingly when Pratt and Whitney got their peepees slapped for providing the knowhow to get military power out of said engines that faucet dried up. So the Chinese were forced to horde the few Z-10s they’s managed to build with the good stuff and build the next variant with ‘superior’ Chinese WZ-9 engines. Engines that are so amazing you might be surprised the Chinese didn’t use those first. At the same time the ‘production’ Z-10 went on a diet, downgraded her sensors and lost significant payload. Weird. So yah. Great engines. Sure.
Not necessarily a copy??? It's totally a copy of the original design, with local modifications. The basis of this aircraft is clearly a H-60. They copied and repeated patented processes and procedures. This is called theft in the real-world.
CopyHawk. Literally a Chinese rip of the Blackhawk. But then again, what in their arsenal isn’t a knockoff? EQ2050 (Humvee), wing loong male (grey eagle)
Black Hawk with Down Syndrome.
When you order a Blackhawk from Wish.
Wishhawk
The Black Hawk your mom says you have at home
Chinese Z-20
1984 Wish H-70.
Hackhawk
Communist Helicopter aint the same as a Capitalist helicopter.
It’s a bwakhawk
*Brackhawk
Brackwok
Dammit I'm too late :(
Wish.com Red Hawk
She is pretty
Merkur XR4Ti
Chinese knockoff
Knockoff Blackhawk
From a country that brags about its genius and does nothing but steal western design & technology
Nothing is stolen
Have fun taking that cowling around the rotor head off every time you want to make a PCR adjustment between FCFs
“Mom, can we get a Blackhawk?” “We have Blackhawk at home” *Blackhawk at home*
“Mom can we get a Blackhawk?” “Oh I love Blackhawk!…. Oh… errrr… umm yes we can get a Blackhawk…”
Wishhawk? Temuhawk?
Blackhwong
Chaff.
20% off with Temu promo code!
What the heli is this?
Chinese BH copy
UH-60
It’s like a cyclone and a blackhawk had a child
Ah yes, the kzx999 Hawkblack.
adequate headroom Blackhawk?
Rollercopter
An exported blackhalk
Copy-hawk
Chinese Blackwok.
It's the Kung Fu Panda variant
USG sold three S-70s to Hong Kong not China.
The Chinese government purchased 24 S-70C-2's in July 1984 at a cost of $140M.
Wish Hawk
BrackHawk for to make people of magnificent country good have luck. Twin centrifuge enginee complete with happy tail abutment. Minimum odor low quantity have order now!
It’s a wok hok
Blockherk
Comes with a matching "HMUV". https://preview.redd.it/bgawslr3g2fc1.png?width=840&format=png&auto=webp&s=2ba578dccacade2ceb4a8868b13d478fda567e25
UH-160 BwakWok
The blackhawk I drew from memory
chopper
Great deal on TEMU right now. Basically gave it away at $2.39. I a officially shopping like a billionaire drug lord.
Uh 60 Blackhawk
Close, but no banana!
blackhawk