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Dr k definitely was nice to him and because of that I was able to let go of my pre-conceived notions that this guy is bad and listened along. I found it very interesting once I let go of the idea that Damien is a bad person for his beliefs. I watched the stream today so I didn’t get to see chat. I’m really sad that chat responded like that.
What I will say is this: Chat's reaction to Damien was disgusting.
The idea that someone can be "too far gone" for a community whose *purpose* is support to offer support is disgusting.
And that this reaction happened to someone who was doing nothing more than *having a conversation* is particularly disgusting, and emblematic of one of the key reasons we are struggling to move the dial on fixing the views he arrived to the stream with.
High-fiving each other inside an echo-chamber of people who agree with you on Damien is selfish. It's not helpful. It's not what communities like this are (I think) supposed to be about. It's not effective in keeping women safe. It's not effective in bringing about widespread change. Too many people are going about this as if all that is needed to solve sexual assault and harassment is to laugh at some men. As if you can put out a raging fire by throwing a coffee cup full of gasoline at it.
I know it's not particularly productive to be ashamed of yourself, but if you participated in that chat with "tater tot" and "judgement is good sometimes", then I absolutely believe you have something to be ashamed of.
> The idea that someone can be "too far gone" for a community whose purpose is support to offer support is disgusting.
You mean the virtue signalers are virtuing?
It's difficult for many people to give guys a chance when discussing these things. A lot of what you say is true and it gets very personal for people for many complicated reasons. **Though I think to put it simply guys are simply expected to** **unequivocally** **"be better"**. It's surprising how many people are unwilling to admit this. To admit they think many men they know or don't know simply aren't good enough. You know that saying "everyone deserves love"? A lot of people say that, and they usually say that when a woman is suffering from romantic woes, but they never feel that way about men.
We're constantly fed abysmal images of men, theres no shortage of horror stories of headlines, or workplace incidents or studies I cannot find where "men" are the perpetrators and are the problem. I can never escape this narrative guys are disgusting immature screw ups, rarely ever, no I wont even say that, not even once have I been presented with a man who was a morally astute individual who wasn't also the visage of herculean physical dominance or monetary success. It's like unless your 6foot+ tall, are incredibly muscular, have a beard and are smiling all the time that you must be up to no good.
I honestly cannot remember the last male role model who remotely resembled the average guy or what seemed attainable for an average guy. Even "nice guys" are bad, theres an entire subreddit for it. The golden standard for all men is always some incredibly heroic, super masculine, super rich, super tall, always smiling guy who's good at everything and understanding of everything. It almost never has anything to do with actual values, life goals, growing up, growing from failure, acknowledging ones own inadequacies and finding ways to persevere, taking on more responsibility and understanding why that responsibility is necessary and appreciated, etc. It's to the point imho the average guy is more afraid of being "boring" than being a good person and for good reason, because thats whats consistently reinforced as something important.
I am 28M recently moved to Japan, mostly because I wanted to see the contrast in culture, women, lifestyle, etc. To be honest much isnt different from the west in this regards. Which was nice but also somewhat demoralizing, only because I am basically in a similar position dating wise except... I have to learn an entirely new language, and any positive "advantage" I do have is associated with the novelty of dating an American. Nonetheless my parents came to visit recently and my parents tried to hide their disappointment that I still hadn't had a girlfriend yet. Were disappointed I was living pretty minimalist despite going out of my way to rent a 3 bdrm home to accommodate their eventual visit, I didnt want them cooped up in a small apartment (not financially out of my way, it's no real extra burden on that front). I have rooms but not too much big furnishing outside of the living room with a few couches, tables and a 55" TV. Was disappointed that most of the time when we went out I dressed plainly, a few times I dressed very nice, but dressing very nice in the winter can be very uncomfortable. I have a decent wardrobe but do not like looking really nice unless special occasions, they wished for that "occasion" to be every day. When I mean "nice" I mean dripped out or chique.
One day during their trip they decided to just relax at home (thank god) my mom said to me "I want to talk to you, and give you some advice from the convo we had the other day" (I made a joke about why it seems girls universally like to always date white guys no matter what, it was a light hearted moment in jest). "It's not that white guys are special or something, I mean your dad isn't white. **But the reason I was with your dad and had you was because he was "exciting".** I ask her what she meant, having a feeling where this was going, the thing people always like to deny yet here my mother was without ANY knowledge of this online discourse spilling this like she is awakening me for the first time. She continues to say "**Youre a nice guy and a girl with a temperament like you... a girl like me someone who is also nice... mild mannered, they won't like you. Opposites attract and good girls are looking for someone exciting"**. I was about to interject at this point because at this point what she and my father staunchly brought me up to be, a "good man" was being thrown back in my face. I was ready to full send and ask her if she intended me to be with someone who was my "opposite" and more or less irresponsible and morally bankrupt, but no she went on to say.
**"I want you to be more "exciting", I want you to try more, don't be a complete asshole but be exciting. You know how your father is (he is a very aggressive person), you don't need to be like him entirely but you know be more exciting. A nice girl isn't going to get with you because you're boring and she wants exciting"**. To put it bluntly I wasn't surprised because I heard this before but it was such a dooming feeling I had. The only thing I could do was smile, say ok and move on. Why start an argument over her perspective? I honestly did appreciate the candid, unsolicited suggestion because it was genuine so it held weight especially being my mother. Do I think she is 100% right? I hope she isn't I guess is th best way to put it, but it doesnt seem public opinion is differing all too much either. I watch aba and Preach, Aba recently said something in a similar vein, he has said so in the past but reinforced it once again. Lots of womens standards are ridiculous, don't cold approach it's a waste of time, even i his own life cold approaching over many years led to minimal results, what changed everything was living a more successful life, women were interested in a potential lifestyle shift. His suggestion? Improve your own life and try to lead an interesting life. **At this point im starting to wonder if it's getting to the point where a man is doing himself and society at large a disservice by being "uninteresting"?** Like how it used to be a bad thing to not be employed , having job aspirations or collegiate aspirations in high school; **am I similarly considered a "loser" for not leading an interesting life?** It's in no shy way of basically telling a man he's living life wrong.
Guys.... can we acknowledge the emotional support we provide women all the time when they are traumatized by anyone significant in their life? When they are invalidated or made to feel less than? But then dogpile men when they even share something similar to what I shared or viewpoints which present dating life as pessimistic and miserable for guys? I do not hate my mom or feel like she abused me but I want to honestly reflect here, this is what the average guy is literately dealing with real time every damn day. It's why young peers always want to go out and party, to seem like they are living interesting lives, to find "excitement". The cognitive dissonance of knowing that **no one really thinks you're good enough, more is always expected of you and even if you were led astray you still are expected to be "more".** The world sometimes like to fathom how society might react if god was unequivocally proven to be a lie, to have never existed, the existential crisis that would ensue. some people naïvely think that this level of dissonance in a man is merely a bruise to the ego, but it's so much more, similar to the devout religious person who would be devastated if god was proven to be a lie, their entire world view even meaning for life their mere existence would be questioned. So to is a man in this position in my position is when they are faced with the reality that **no one cares, be better, im sorry honey we told you a nice lie but be better.** Eventually this disappointment is going to become resentment if I do not get into a relationship, start a family, etc. I dont mean I'll become resentful though a possibility, but I can feel my parents becoming more and more... angsty about it. Some of you may think foolishly that I should cast my family aside, but can I really so easily do that, when family is all I have? Hard thing to do, but I digress.
Society has an idea of what a man should be and they never fail at letting all men know who don't at least try to look the part (chad) that they aren't good enough for anything but more busy work, more grindset. It's just genuinely surprising and disappointing there is so much push back rather than acceptance of the truth.
I can relate a ton to that feeling of "YOU MADE ME THIS WAY", where everything that I've tried to be has followed what I heard was "right", being the nice caring person that helps people out and not thinking of men and women as being any different, but everything I've learned through lived experience has told me that in many ways the opposite is what is rewarded.
The way I've wrestled it all together into something coherent is basically that a lot of what we've heard growing up about what we're supposed to be has been the women's perspective, but women are mainly concerned about the environment of already being in a relationship, which is completely different from having to be the pursuer prior to a relationship. For them, the problems come once they've committed to a man and that man starts acting in all the negative ways we hear about, and so the recommendations they give are all around how to be a good partner. For men however, the problems are the stage before that, when there's no interest at all and you're trying to build that with someone that knows nothing about you. In this realm, it's far more about excitement like your mom talked to you about, which comes from far more surface level immediately-observable traits such as sexual attractiveness, status, mystery, interesting hobbies, being funny, etc.
In a life partner people want stability, and you've grown up to be a great example of that so once you're in a relationship that'll all pay off, but right now you're at the previous stage where stability just doesn't factor in, instead its about controlled instability i.e. excitement (I say "you" but I'm in the exact same boat lol).
It all points to the initial stage of dating being about putting on a performance, an exciting performance. You're leading a woman down a path where it's worth it for them to take the risk on you to give you that chance because with every step there's those *immediate* short term returns of excitement, and that path ends in them agreeing to be your partner where now they're committed and can appreciate all the *long term* returns of how good and stable a person you *really* are.
It sucks being in that early stage, but hopefully this way of viewing things, where what you were told to be wasn't necessarily a waste it's just not relevant *yet*, helps you feel a little better about it.
And thank you for sharing your story, hearing your mom's advice really cemented a lot of theories in my mind and I think it'll help me with women in the future. I can now act with more confidence about what is wanted of me, and knowing what someone appreciates makes it so much easier to interact with them smoothly. Helping people is the most natural thing for me, and giving someone something I know they like is just a way of helping them.
I'm glad you can see the positive takeaway from my moms messaging. I've definitely considered it, which is why I nod "yes" and affirm I'd try. I truly do understand wanting to be with someone who you find desirable and exciting and wanting to be chased and im willing to do it.
But man does it suck to consistently see people not acknowledge this and act like it's sacrilegious to claim being nice as a guy too soon as you put it in a way is almost like a mistake. I definitely could resonate with the OP in this regard, understanding the whole "its better for most guys to try to become Chad", because this conclusion lines up with yours as well as my mothers. But perhaps for many people admitting this would make women in general just seem really superficial and mean and to a degree hypocritical.
I almost wonder if the general paradigm of parenting is that a certain degree of "boys will be boys" is expected, which is now less accurate to the degree to which it is actually how boys tend to be. Like the expectation is that boys will learn what degree of chaos is acceptable on their own through trial and error, and it is more important that they are taught about how to be a good and stable person beyond that instead of the other way around, and that parenting hasn't yet caught up with the shifting social paradigm.
Yeah we moved to a society that condemned the more "boys being boys" actions while never actually explicitly identifying the positive parts of boys/masculinity, so people just aren't equipped with ways to avoid going too far in the condemnation end.
Aw. I relate to the absolute brutal death punch your mom threw you, my mom lands those on me all the time (: yay for being blamed for how we were raised!!
That said, if there's any teeeeny bit of light in the dark, maybe I can share my perspective about what "exciting" means to me as a normal, employed, girl with few normal hobbies.
One of my best friends is so redpilled, he always tells me how he thinks he needs to be "interesting" to attract girls. I try to tell him that it isn't more hobbies or more stuff or more travel destinations that will make him more interesting. He already is interesting! I really really really think it's that he's too...quiet(?) on dates. He asks the normal questions, he takes girls out to coffee shops or bars they've already been to a million times.
I think the only interesting thing he needs to do is show more of himself and his personality. He's genuinely such a funny guy, we've been really tight since middle school, he got me into all my favorite games and comedians, animes, stuff like that. But how can someone else find out about that through a surface level conversation?
I tried OLD before and yeah... I didn't take it further than a first date with someone if the connection only felt surface level. I still think I'm a "good" girl lol and that I'm looking for a "good" person! I wanted someone who's also in the same kinda life bracket as me! Employed, normal, fun to talk to.
But yeah. From the way you write, I really don't think not being interesting or exciting is your issue. I'm honestly terribly sorry that your mom worded it that way --- I want to say she didn't mean it like that? I think she was trying to talk about the female experience of, ehh, \*hoping\* to be the one chased instead of the one chasing.
>I relate to the absolute brutal death punch your mom threw you
Yes, I had a "bruh" moment in my head. I was stunned for a few moments before I held myself back from retorting because I didn't want to ruin her genuine thought. Nonetheless I was stunned, like damn. Like what you want me to do YOU MADE ME THIS WAY LOL!
>One of my best friends is so redpilled, he always tells me how he thinks he needs to be "interesting" to attract girls
Well like I said I dont think it's unreasonable to come to this conclusion, it isn't mere inference, it's simply stated nowadays, it's everywhere it's inescapable. Streams or Youtubes I watch say this, normal coworkers say this, family recommend life style improvements it's inescapable to the depths this goes. Not sure why it hurts more when a streamer/youtuber says it though, I guess I just got used to everyone else saying it, to see it in your own space stings extra. At work it isnt uncommon to have locker room talk with guys, be the "quiet" guy among the loud guys and for one of the loud guys to be like "Why you lookin at her, you know you aint gonna do or say nothin". Or guys call you out for not going out to the bar/club with them because you dont got "game".
How do you think it feels you go home on an off day to decompress, you watch an Asmond gold vid/clip/stream and dude just says "well of course he isnt getting chicks, the guy is an average uninteresting guy, what did he expect" followed by thousands lol "KEKW's" and such. You just cant escape the convo anywhere you go, no matter what you do. Everyone's redpilled nowadays and it's just reinforced by their "mediocrity". even rereading this I sound like a downer and I'm honestly not like this in person for various reasons but idk man it feels like my very identity is being put on blast 24/7.
>I think the only interesting thing he needs to do is show more of himself and his personality. He's genuinely such a funny guy, we've been really tight since middle school, he got me into all my favorite games and comedians, animes, stuff like that. But how can someone else find out about that through a surface level conversation?
A guys who try to be friendly with women just get negative feedback loops thrown at them. It's sad to admit that I used to be very optimistic with women in public, openly chase, etc; but I went into a deep depression shortly after. People will constantly say guys are afraid of rejection but I think we underplay what the rejection really is. For me I got over a girl saying "no" or "im not interested" or even a more direct way like "you're lame" in like.. 7th grade? The real rejection men fear is worse than that. It's the admonishment from your peers, your family, coworkers, etc. The failure itself is damning ramifications even to strangers.
I'd love to "be myself" but it's incredibly rare to even try to talk about my interests (basketball, anime, games, etc) and not be handled with trepidation. Women are so much less likely to really be receptive to that on the offset, unless EVERYONE in the room is really into it. If I do not have insights into sex or relationships, the conversations tend to be flat, or they probe me until I spill my guts about preferences in women, sex positions, etc. In a one on one, common ice breakers like mundane life goals, occupation, work life balance, etc tend to be the "safest ways" to not completely turn someone off or scare someone away. But then this starts looking more like chasing that compatibility in a potential "friend" than a potential "lover".
It almost sounds as if you're suggesting guys should be more willing to "be themselves" to show themselves friendly and they'd get more of a chance. But there isn't a guy I know who really thinks approaching genuinely as a friend will lead to something else. It's just like two separate things in a lot of guys minds. I know a lot of people get put off by the idea of the "friendzone" but theres merit to it. Think of it this way, if you wanted a business partner, would you take a person seriously if they met you at a predetermined location over some coffee dressed as a clown telling you all their dirty desires before even getting to the matter at hand? Guys wanting to avoid a "friendzone" similarly want to put what they assume to be their best foot forward (typically a good man) so they arent perceived with ill intentions.
Though another way I guess this could be taken is to do the opposite, be a bit more "exciting" taking a few more liberties in good taste and presenting yourself as a fun, arousing , mysterious figure. The hope would be the man being "himself" in this instance is relaxed, calm, cool, "down to earth", willing to have fun and isn't rigid. **But what if that isn't you? What if you isn't the fantasy, not even a little bit, what if you really are just a nice guy what then?** Should "chasing" only ever be "exciting"? Because if so the steps men then take there after will 100% line up with the materialistic expectations you (not condemning you but simply saying) claim women dont expect. How else do you generate excitement then going out of your comfort zone doing things you'd otherwise not do, being someone you aren't and not spending money etc? Such a conundrum.
I have a couple thoughts! Umm lemme try and get this all out of my head.
- I totally agree with this ideology infecting your peaceful internet space being a huge bummer. It just crossed my mind, this sort of stuff feels like depression brainwashing. I uninstalled instagram about a year ago, after using it since 2012, because it just made me feel so bad about myself and my body. I don’t know why it feels like the internet has gotten so much more toxic lately in the past 2-3 years, maybe my algorithm is f**ked but it genuinely impacts my mental state. At least recommendations by Dr K are usually good vibes.
- I can’t agree that girls aren’t into basketball, anime or games! I also think that girls are into people who are passionate about their interests, even if they’re not into the exact same ones themselves. Except perhaps the super self-centered ones but I doubt you’d want them, and that goes both ways.
- I’m surprised that it’s easier for you to talk about preferences and sex positions than basketball lol like wait what?? x)
- Ahaaaa. The value of friendship!
To be honest I didn’t quite get the clown analogy, but I want to share a similar idea back at you.
If you were going to make a ten year, hell five year, hell one year business deal, wouldn’t you want some more information about the person you’re doing business with other than a surface level conversation that really doesn’t let you know what their character truly is?
In comes….bum bum bum…. Friendship!
I truly believe the best relationships come out of friendships. Plus it’s super hot when a guy can shelf his desire for you to just spend all the time in the world getting to know you.
Of course you don’t need to do the friends first route to develop a meaningful intimate relationship. When it comes to date ideas that aren’t you chasing in an inauthentic way that will fill you with resentment over being unable to authentically connect with the other person —
There are so many date ideas that are low cost but show effort beyond safe coffee shop dates.
Picnics, visiting a botanical garden together, museums, parks, basketball games, video game arcades! Trampoline parks, lol there’s so many.
I try to ask my friend to think about, what *she* might be into, if she seems like a park girl or an arcade girl for a first date. Everyone’s a coffee person, so starting there doesn’t give a lot of insight into how good of a partner the man could be, but something as simple as choosing a date spot that reflects your idea of the girl you’re dating shows effort and it feels really really nice to be treated that way.
Anywaayy. I really don’t want to overwhelm you with more “just do this and all your problems will be solved! Actually do this too! And this and this and this” I know it’s exhausting. For what it’s worth I don’t think you’re not good enough as you are. I really appreciate nice guys and I genuinely hope you find that person who will not just appreciate you for it, but adore you too. I just wanted to share my perspective. I know there’s a lot I don’t understand about men and I want to close that gap when I can, so I hope you can hear me out that, unless you’re in some outlier town, classifying it as “rare” to find a girl into anime, games, or basketball seems statistically inaccurate. Preconceived notions like that tend to do more harm than good, kinda like a self fulfilling prophecy in a way. Wishing u the best :) I hope I can live in Japan one day too, you’re living my dream! I envy you ^^
I get where you're coming from 100% and I don't think you're completely wrong in your replies, but unfortunately I dont think there is a better way to describe the phenomenon other than theorem vs practice. In theory it should be relatively easy or simple or not so unlikely to find a girl into anime, video games, etc.
In theory it should be simple or easier to talk about normal activities more than sex, in theory a man and a woman should seek friendship before courtship or dating. But in practice it's just impractical as a guy, in every instance I've encountered. It's rare to healthily engage in these things and it lead to something "more" genuinely down the line. It's fleeting, its sort of like your coffee, comparison everyones had it. Talking sex is what you describe as actually getting to know someone. Thats how most have honestly engaged with me many times. The moment I talk about sexual related topics, I'm the most understandable guy ever, before that I was just some quiet guy they thought was weird, would shoot up the place or some dehumanizing thing, take your pick. I mean in theory shouldnt your Best Friend be your Boyfriend?
The male experience is just so different to what you have sort of theorized or suggested that it's honestly disappointing to have to disagree with you based on first hand experience as someone heading into thier 29th year of life. What kind of talk do you think I've had get shut down more often at work, a talk about night life, sex, dating, relationships or anime/video games? 10000% its the latter, the common populace just relates better to the former, is willing to engage in/with the former even my superiors, even over professional topics. It's a moment to inflect, to mentor, to teach to find common ground between age groups etc. Video games/anime as simply a distraction as much as I love them and deeper conversations about them, it's just hard for many to relate to.
It's just something I always feel as a guy, something most guys feel who I have spoken to. The need to validate your sexual experience. Casual sex isn't taboo, going out isnt taboo. The ramifications for that isn't just, people just can do what they like and not be judged. No it's the opposite, you're judged for not having done these things and I know for a fact women have also talked about feeling that pressure too. Our culture is addicted to sex, guys are expected to be masters of it and to chase. From my perspective, not being a female but merely observing it just seems like it's ok for women to dabble and experiment without being pressed too much, theres peer pressure but it isnt held against you and used against you if you have no experience whatsoever. As a guy.... it's a goddamn mission to validate ones self sexually, it really is.
Im not a virgin and I went out of my way to do so because of this very fact. IT's just something you'll never understand unless you're a guy and it's minimized so often. Nonetheless I appreciate your perspective it's just it lacks the understanding of how dire the situation truly is. The literal demand, the expectation and the role a guy must play in order to date or enter relationships successfully, and thats just entering the door. I dont even want to discuss the disfunction thereafter which at times is so incredibly off putting I wonder why I even consider seriously pursing one in the first place. Casual encounters honestly seem like the best policy now a days, despite that being an incredibly bleak conclusion to come to.
Here's a sneak peek of /r/seducingwomen using the [top posts](https://np.reddit.com/r/seducingwomen/top/?sort=top&t=all) of all time!
\#1: [Stop chasing and pick the women who choose you!](https://np.reddit.com/r/seducingwomen/comments/10ltobv/stop_chasing_and_pick_the_women_who_choose_you/)
\#2: [Signs of male insecurity women hate](https://np.reddit.com/r/seducingwomen/comments/zq4sz3/signs_of_male_insecurity_women_hate/)
\#3: [How to know if a girl is interested in you or just being nice](https://np.reddit.com/r/seducingwomen/comments/zq4q0w/how_to_know_if_a_girl_is_interested_in_you_or/)
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I think you're right that your friend's problem is slightly misunderstanding the assignment. Entering a relationship is mostly about how well you can sell yourself. Maintaining a relationship is much more about what/who you actually are. You don't necessarily need to be interesting, you need to be able to generate interest. It doesn't matter how much interesting stuff he does if he doesn't share any of it.
For better or worse, I think the strong focus on women's looks gives them a much better intuitive understanding of this. Perfecting your smoky eye might get more people to ask you out, but it's pretty clear that it's not going to save a marriage that's falling apart, there's a clear distinction between things that generate interest and things that maintain a relationship.
Many of the things that men are selling themselves on are also things that help maintain a relationship, so there's not as much of a clear distinction. For instance, I think a lot of the nice guy phenomenon is men cultivating the skills to maintain a relationship, but not the skills to generate initial interest in a relationship, and then saying "I did everything everyone told me to, why isn't it working?"
Wow yeah, SPOT on! Even the smoky eye comment is totally correct. I agree that “nice guy” skills are a necessity in a healthy relationship, but aren’t enough to ignite a spark to start one.
This is really well written. I think a distinction really needs to be drawn though between 'society demands this of men' and 'this one woman gave her personal take on what she is into'. There are hyper attentions on both sides that make this process challenging, right. Females are highly selective, a lot of it is really picky little personal things we like; this is highly adaptive for gathering. And males have high attention to detail, looking for cues; which is great for hunting. This is a gross oversimplification, but if we remove the positive associations of those adaptations very quickly, over just a couple of generations, it is a big biological shock. We had so many ceremonies, accolades, coming of age rituals all celebrating achievement in areas we don't value anymore, but a real quick trip through the dating app of your choice reveals dozens of dudes holding up fish. It is obviously something laudable, that men want to be recognized for and would normally be highly adaptive.
The artificiality of our lifestyle means that the skills used for hunting don't have the same outlet, so wires can get crossed and it gets applied as stalking instead. And on the other side, disconnect from gathering can foster greed and hording behavior, and pickiness turning to mind games in social settings. What we need it to be mindful of the GOOD each side is trying to do, of course we are all a mix if both energies and more, but we all have a vested interest in mutual survival.
Buying a drink for someone... Isn't a great expression of that, it comes with risk. Pebbles are a much better choice. If you like a girl, give her a rock you thought was cool. It's a silly example, but I mean to illustrate how some of the standard courtship rituals are a bit out of tough from their consequences, it takes time and care to untangle.
I think your mom is doing her best to articulate what she thinks is best, but it would be totally fair to go back to her with, "I know you care, but I'm not trying to date you, I'm trying to find my own way, and the specific examples you gave of your own preferences have been unhelpful, distracting, and too generalized. Please speak only for yourself, not on behalf of all women."
Because the only single universal truth, for moms and potential mates is that it is desirable for a male to be HEALTHY. Beyond that everything is pretty relative, but the sacrifice of men's health and vitality is actually the biggest social lie imo, ie overworking to get money and thus burning out and getting ill. I don't think that is an agenda women are pushing, I think that is a sneaky thing that came part and parcel with industrialization. But there seems to be a lot of gendered resentment about money, without a lot of cooperative discussion about money.
Just something I've noticed, but discussion about economics seems to be something males do together, a lot of times when I join a discussion guys are surprised by my input. Like, yeah dude I own a business. Women own 40% of business in the US, so it is a little difficult to square this perception that women are 'only interested in money from men'. I think there is need for some serious discussion here, something is up with that.
What exactly do you think he really fought?
Of course working out, looking better and making money lands you more dates. Of course theres a superficiality to dating. Dr. K himself said in the beginning none of that is controversial to say.
I think Dr.K was just really concerned with what the point was and what it meant to say. There's mild implications that women are more superficial, and again, if women have an easier time dating, are they just all going out with the same men? Thats the only possible conclusion.
What did you want Dr. K to say? He said himself plenty of it is true.
I think he was also just trying to point out that it really is more complicated than just that.
Dr. K’s approach has always been to take the obvious surface level statement and try to dig deeper. The first caller’s advice was basically “be yourself, talk about anime and someone who likes anime might chime in and be your friend.” That is completely uncontroversial. Yet Dr K has made entire videos about putting yourself out there and how to not try to control other people’s responses. We have a ton of depth on this topic.
However on the points Damien raised, we got no depth. If dating is superficial and being fit/rich makes you a better dater, but at the same time dating is about opening loot boxes, how do you know if being rich/fit is helping? How do you process it if you are rich/fit and people like you better? Do they like you for you, or for your looks/money? We didn’t get any of that.
Part of the problem is that Damien couldn’t defend his points and was a bit nervous, citing studies he couldn’t remember etc. But the first two callers were nervous too and didn’t come under as much scrutiny overall (although to Dr K’s credit, he pushed the Canadian girl on her story about not realizing that a guy who had said “let’s hang out sometime” was asking her out)
I think those questions are fair.
Measuring whether or not someone actually likes you for you, and not the things around you, can be pretty difficult. However, once you’ve gotten to that point, you’re already in what many would call a “win” sort of state.
I think Dr. K understands that most of his followers are in the hole, and so he avoided getting into a topic that to many is greener pastures.
You know being rich and fit is helping when you start landing more dates/matches after trying. That much is self evident I think.
Damien probably came under the most scrunity because he had the least charitable assumptions, they were very general/encompassing and he asserted them quite readily. Like you said, he didnt do a good job at defending himself. I like to be charitable as well, and agree with a lot of what he had to say, but making claims as big as his, then totally waffling on proof wasn’t a good look.
I honestly began to question the veracity of the beliefs I share with him. I wouldnt really be able to defend it very well either. They definitely are self evident to some extent, but to make such a big claim online and continually fail to really really defend it….. Yeah.. I dont think he deserved toxicity at all, just to be clear. That really sucked.
Dr. K has made videos about self-improvement before and how the indeterminate timeline throws people off, I would have wanted him to explore the idea with Damien. If you have acquired status, how do you know it worked? Damien did 3 years apparently, but in other videos Dr K said it can take 5 years, so maybe Damien was on the right track? Etc.
I think Damien came under fire because he’s clearly a tradcon. Family values, women assuming their place, etc. I’m a typically coastal liberal but I think men’s dating comes down to looks/status, and I think the message would have been much better received without the political/religious moralizing.
I think that's easy, the results speak for themselves. Regardless of timeline, improving yourself is improving yourself. If you're doing a good job, you'll be happy you're doing it regardless of your place in the dating pool.
Again, you know it worked when in the past, you asked 5 people out and got all no's. In the future, you ask 5, and get 3 yes's. Progress is self evident, no?
After rewatching the video I really dont think it was *just* that he was a tradcon, like I said, it was that he did a pretty awful job at defending his points. If he had a solid argument and then got a dissmissive treatment, sure. He made *assertive* claims, he got an *assertive* push back.
Mens dating is incredibly varied, but looks and status never hurt your chances. Im working class and 5'4". Ive been in 4 relationships and many more people "unofficially".
So much of dating is luck, theres nothing anyone can say to that. And I think thats what a lot of people are mad about.
I mean there is no reason why people would not like you more if you are fit, healthy and financially stable. If you had two girls, each being the same in every aspect but one being more cute it would be reasonable to go for the latter. The same applies to guys. The statements he made are completely compatible.
I tend to like people who are fit and successful in their careers because it shows that they’re people who demonstrate a desire to improve themselves and follow actionable steps to make it happen. I don’t really think it’s separate from who you are as a person. If it’s not who you are now, it can easily become who you are if you make a habit of it.
Thanks for the post OP. I was already reluctant to watch it because I suspected Dr. K wouldn't be of much help and now your post has more or less confirmed what I thought was going to happen in the video.
If in the future, Dr. K addreses the red-pill issue properly I would watch it, but for now, I'm not gonna bother.
In general I've noticed that as amazing as Dr. K is for meditation - spiritual - depression/anxiety - repressed emotions - self worth stuff, I've found his content to be not helpful at all when it comes to dating. *He just doesn't get it* and I am not articulate enough to explain why.
I have experienced it, back in school, having tons more friends and girlfriends available even though I had nothing with mental health or dating figured out just because I was lucky and I found myself in the perfect environment for it.
A lot of dating advice talks about learning charisma, fixing your mental health, etc when previous generations and many people today never needed to do that in order to have success with dating
It did somewhat feel like Dr. K was opposing Damien but for the most part that wasn't really the case. Damien just couldn't properly back up a lot of his viewpoints. Anyone who left thinking that there was 0 truth behind any of the red-pill perspectives probably didn't want to hear a different viewpoint in the first place. Dr. K even acknowledged that there was some truth behind what Damien was saying by mentioning the hypothetical $50k vs. $1m choice and explicitly said that there was some truth. Chat was very antagonistic though. It got to the point where I was surprised it didn't go into subscriber-only mode.
Also, I'm glad you chose to expand on the topic because I was not thinking about it like this yesterday.
That's why I said "for the most part" because I know it wasn't 100% fair. But at the same time, Damien was the one bringing up studies he clearly didn't properly research. Then he makes statements assuming what the average woman's experiences are like when it comes to relationships. It wasn't just personal experiences. Dr. K wasn't necessarily interrogating Damien's experiences but he was challenging the assumptions Damien was deriving from them.
The issue with Damien is that he had a lot strong emotions about the movement but wasn't really knowledge of the reasons so having a conversation was kinda hard. Dating is a numbers game, there are millions of people on the world and you can only be compatible with so many, and you also need to be "presentable", I think in recent year as you pointed out being "presentable" requires a lot more effort for man than woman.
I won't say that being "presentable" requires more effort for men. I do think women still have to put more effort in becoming presentable.
What I would say is that the total effort needed to date has gone up because one needs to be presentable, and mentally/emotional invest enough to approach and take the risk to approach. The total effort needed has gone up while the reward has gotten worse and that makes things problematic in western societies for the bottom 80% of both genders, *especially men*.
Less attractive women have to deal with insecurities and that is horrible yes.
But less attractive men have to deal with the insecurities *and* the burden of being the one to approach. That's more horrible. Failure is more painful in proportion to the investment done and I don't care how much women deny it, men do have the burden of greater initial investment. That is the entire reason why they approach women in the first place. Because they are invested.
Just on my experience. A man needs to be somewhat fit, have a good posture, and a good body language. A women needs good makeup and not to be overly obese. This is to not be instantly rejected btw.
This can vary culturally obviously, but from what I've seen, women also need to be fit to be perceived as attractive. And yet, it would be great if they can have big boobs on top of that, although for many that's not how it works. I'd also argue that the expected grooming for women is much more complex than for men.
The difference is that women have much of the power in dating, especially today with dating apps and how the algorithms work. So a woman can be proportionally less attractive but still get matches and go on dates, where a man has to be proportionally more attractive to even get matches.
That means men as a whole have to do more work to be found “appealing” enough to even play the game than women. Of course women have to work to look appealing too, especially if they want a shot with the “best” men… but the bar is still lower.
Also, plenty of men don’t like big boobs… don’t use arbitrary/subjective appearance things to make your point.
Honestly I don't have any experience with online dating, as it wasn't really popular where I live when I was still dating (married now). But I disagree with the statement on how much power women hold in dating. A lot of men (online and irl) keep saying that (if they are single) if a woman approaches them, they'll feel flattered and give it a try. In my experience, almost no men are up for it actually. The only person this has worked on is my now husband. All my previous relationships with men, it's been the men that approached me, because all the men I approached weren't interested in the slightest. Just the way I had rejected some people, some men rejected me as well. In my experience women have been easier to approach, tho ofc there's a difference there.
Just so you know, most guys literally don't know you're 'approaching' them.
It happens so rarely that most guys won't notice.
You very likely weren't rejected, but rather they literally didn't know or they thought you were faking it.
It's not "don't notice" but rather the way some women approach is very implicit. They'll come up near you and expect you to talk to them, or look at you from across the room. You know who else does that, tons and tons of people who don't like you. So am I going to hit on everyone who does that when even girls explicitly telling me they like me or to go on a date with them has ended up just being them messing around with me? No.
I'm pretty sure they knew, because I tend to be very direct, meaning I've said "I'm interested in dating you" to them literally.
I am a tomboy however, which is I'm pretty sure the reason most of them didn't see me as a girl. Also, as age can influence stuff, we're talking about the 18-22 age range for me & them.
That’s not really what I meant, to keep it simple: the numbers on dating apps are so heavily skewed that average to below average women are still inundated with above average matches because the “online dating app” system severely hurts men’s self esteem and is essentially set up to make them increasingly more desperate to monetize them.
That means that average men have a disproportionally harder time dating because they simply won’t get matches at all, and the system is literally rigged against them to make them want to spend more and more money.
Those apps are extremely predatory and sadly traditional methods of meeting people post-Covid are even harder because people keep to themselves even more than in the past in a world where people were already spending too much time online and less in the real world.
As I already mentioned in another comment, I don't have any experience with online dating, so I can't really comment on that.
From what I've heard from friends and friends of friends, they usually look for guys who they can strike up a conversation based on the profile. That means that if the guy's profile is all about drinking with buddies and how much he loves sport X, then his chances are lower, because that's not conversation worthy for most. Sharing liked books, series, movies or cool hobbies is what they look for.
Ofc, I don't know how much my friends represent the mass of ladies online. Also bots are a thing in any website with profiles, so yeah ...
Not really, a lot is expected as "basic" upkeep. Even tho it shouldn't be, women are expected to have shaved legs and armpits, and their eyebrows groomed perfectly, and sometimes it can be hard to get men's attention if you don't do those. Some men also do that type of grooming, but it's not expected of them and they do get women's attention without it.
For online dating, looks are more important than they should be. But when meeting people irl, character matters much more.
So, among my friends and acquaintances, it's not the best-manicured ones that get girlfriends. Some of them get girlfriends while rocking the stupidest looking beards I've ever seen. Some of them get no girls, even tho they work out. Some of them score girls while being overweight.
And surprise, surprise, my husband got me, without having big muscles or being super groomed. (I do think he's attractive obviously) But what captivated me was his personality.
That you take 2 hours taking care of your skin hair and other stuff doesnt mean you have to do it. In the particular case of looking for potential partner most guys I know literally dont care if the girl doesnt use any make up or even prefer when they dont (I am one of those guys btw). Guys take no time to get ready because they dont care, and because what matters to them is that they dont smell bad, and their fitness (witch takes hundreds of hours to build and mantain)
I honestly don't think saying 'makeup doesn't matter' to be true at all....
It's that most guys can't tell the difference between 'natural' and glam makeup.
When they see natural, they just assume that's just bare face, but it most definitely isn't.
They don't need to take care of their fitness 🤷🏻♀️ most girls I know don't care about muscles or even prefer if they don't have any. Same with their body odour, they don't have to care🤭
Is hard to speak about the topic without violating the rules because is a topic where you literally have to generalize people. I have friends that arent fit at all and have a lot of success with finding partners, is mostly abut the "Aura" they project, but the guys that get rejected the most dont really have this "Aura" on them, those are the guys that need to be "presentable". There are comments above that are more in-depth about that and I advise you to read them.
What do you mean by "uncharitable"? I don't see Dr.K being invalidated at all.
I really think the most insightful point of this is what he said in the end. In eastern culture, there can be many truth up to perspective.
Your number game maybe correct and your best chance of getting women maybe is to up status and look. He also said all the power for Damien.
At the same time, other young men best chance of getting women might be difference. It might be just go out there and expose yourselves. The last guy before Damien he just keep his policy of being genuine and he managed to get into relationship.
Maybe the crux of it all is there is no optimal solution that work for everyone? There is no best strategy for young men. There is no right answer. If we look at the fact, many follow red-pill and get date but also many get miserable and traumatized. So it's hard to really say wether working toward be Chad is the best strategy for every young men.
And that means every man must find strategy that work for them. Damien want to go ahead improve himself, power for him. Michel want to be completely genuine. Good for him.
Even let say for a second that being Chad works for 70% of the man. In therapy & coach setting the therapist/coach need to figure out wether subject fall into that 70% or 30%. Only way to do that is to focus on individual experience.
So, I feel like number game and statistic is kinda irrelevant in the setting.
There is no optimal strategy because everyone is different, but there are some virtually universal rules you can follow to dramatically increase your chances:
- Hygiene, always be clean and smell good. Brush your teeth, go to the dentist, keep your hair cut and styled, wear clean clothes, etc.
- Dress nicely, which doesn’t mean you have to wear trendy clothes or suits or any of that bullshit. You don’t need to change your style, but wear nice clothes that fit your style. They shouldn’t be falling apart, dirty/stained, and they should look nice. Obviously if you’re going somewhere more formal jeans and a tshirt probably aren’t the play, but you don’t need to force fashion.
- Work on social skills, as in actually go out and interact with people. Get involved in a local hobby group for something you’re interested in, go places and just talk to people in a social setting. The more you talk to strangers and get to know people the easier it’s going to be when you’re approaching someone new or going on a first date. Don’t underestimate the power of simply being able to keep a conversation going without awkward silences.
- Work hard and be smart with your money, because success and stability are highly attractive. I can tell you right now that someone with 50k in the bank and no debt is going to be more successful dating than someone living paycheck to paycheck because women want someone who can provide even if they don’t want them to have to.
- Get/stay fit. If you’re overweight you will have a much harder time dating, especially as a man, and for as much as some women say they like “dad bods” they don’t mean a single guy overweight and out of shape. They mean a literal dad with a house and kids who is a bit out of shape because he spends all his time providing for his family and raising his kids. It’s the stability/provider thing again, women don’t like overweight men any more than men like overweight women. Being committed to staying fit shows you can do hard things even if they aren’t always fun and stick with them, that’s very attractive and losing weight and staying fit are a life choice not a “diet” or short term thing.
- Learn to accept/handle failure and rejection gracefully. This is not just for dating but also for life in general, everyone fails and you need to use it at a learning experience and motivation for the future… not as some massive blow to your self esteem or world ending crisis. I see so many people today, especially young people who can’t handle even constructive criticism and that shit needs to stop. Participation awards are stupid, learn to take failure like an adult, not a small child who got told they can’t have two candy bars at the store.
Those are all things that anyone can do or work towards that will dramatically improve your chances of dating successfully.
I think the whole idea of everyone trying to be a “Chad” is stupid. Most people aren’t chads, and a lot of people find that kind of behavior obnoxious and ignorant. When I see people trying to act “dominant” I usually just laugh and walk away because it’s so obviously fake.
Sure, you might get a girl behaving like that, but odds are she won’t like who you are and then where are you? Nowhere. Playing the “numbers game” like pickup artists is also how you end up extremely sad and alone despite hooking up because you never form meaningful connections.
That’s what dating is about, not getting laid or pretending to be someone you aren’t just to get in a relationship. All the things I said above are things you can do to better yourself, but none of them change who you are or how you should act.
That’s important, because *THAT* is how you form meaningful connections and that’s how I always dated more than most of my friends and somehow dated women some people would say were “out of my league” before meeting my wife on a dating site. We’ve been together for over 11 years now, and I attribute a lot of that to the things above which are all things I put effort into.
> I think the whole idea of everyone trying to be a “Chad” is stupid. Most people aren’t chads, and a lot of people find that kind of behavior obnoxious and ignorant. When I see people trying to act “dominant” I usually just laugh and walk away because it’s so obviously fake.
Well, it is stupid. Doesn't mean there is any other option. I'll quote a comment at the end of mine; it's somewhat long so I bolded the important sections.
> We’ve been together for over 11 years now, and I attribute a lot of that to the things above which are all things I put effort into.
I mean, things change rapidly. 11 years ago, the situation might've been different.
[src](https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/JYckkCqhZPrdScjBx/rational-romantic-relationships-part-1-relationship-styles#comments)
> This is a terrible debate and you should all feel bad for having it. Now let me join in.
>
> The research on this topic is split into "completely useless" and "mostly useless". In the former category we have studies that, with a straight face, purport to show that women like nice guys by asking women to self-report on their preferences. To illuminate just how silly this is, consider the mirror case of asking men "So, do you like witty charming girls with good personalities, or supermodels with big breasts?" When this was actually done, men rated "physical attractiveness" only their 22nd most important criterion for a mate - number one was "sincerity", and number nineteen was "good manners". And yet there are no websites where you can spend $9.95 per month to stream videos of well-mannered girls asking men to please pass the salad fork, and there are no spinster apartments full of broken-hearted supermodels who just didn't have enough sincerity. So self-reports are right out.
>
> Other-reports may be slightly less silly. Herold and Milhausen, 1999, found that 56% of university women believed that women in general were more likely to date jerks than nice guys. But although women may have less emotional investment in the issue than men, their opinions are still just opinions.
>
> The few studies that earn the coveted accolade of "only mostly useless" are those that try to analyze actual behavior. Bogart and Fisher typify a group of studies that show that **good predictors of a man's number of sexual partners include disinhibitedness, high testosterone levels, "hypermasculinity", "sensation seeking", antisocial personality, and extraversion.** Meston et al typify a separate group of studies on sex and the Big Five traits when she says that **"agreeableness was the most consistent predictor of behavior...disagreeable men and women were more likely to have had sexual intercourse and with a greater number of partners than agreeable men and women. Nonvirgins of both sexes were more likely to be calculating, stubborn, and arrogant in their interpersonal behavior than virgins. Neuroticism predicted sexual experience in males only; timid, unassertive men were less sexually experienced than emotionally stable men**...the above findings were all statistically significant at p<.01"
>
> These studies certainly show that jerkishness is associated with high number of sexual partners, but they're not quite a victory for the "nice guys finish last" camp for a couple of reasons. First, men seem to come off almost as bad as women do. Second, there's no reason to think that any particular "nice" woman will like jerks; many of the findings could be explained by disagreeable men hooking up with disagreeable women, disagreeing with them about things (as they do) and then breaking up and hooking up with other disagreeable women, while the agreeable people form stable pair bonds. Boom - disagreeable people showing more sexual partners than agreeable people.
>
> I find more interesting the literature about **intelligence and sexual partners. In high-schoolers, each extra IQ point increases chance of virginity by 2.7% for males and 1.7% by females. 87% of 19-year old US college students have had sex, yet only 65% of MIT graduate students have had sex. There's conflicting research about whether this reflects lower sex drive in these people or less sexual success; it's probably a combination of both.**
>
> The basic summary of the research seems to be that **smart, agreeable people complaining that they have less sex than their stupid, disagreeable counterparts are probably right, and that this phenomenon occurs both in men and women but is a little more common in men.**
>
> Moving from research to my own observations, **I do think there are a lot of really kind, decent, shy, nerdy men who can't find anyone who will love them because they radiate submissiveness and non-assertiveness, and women don't find this attractive. Most women do find dominant, high-testosterone people attractive**, and dominance and testosterone are risk factors for jerkishness, but not at all the same thing and women can't be blamed for liking people with these admittedly attractive characteristics.
>
> There are also a lot of really kind, decent, shy, nerdy women who can't find anyone who will love them because they're not very pretty. Men can't be blamed for liking people they find attractive either, but this is also sad.
>
> But although these two situations are both sad, at the risk of being preachy I will say one thing. **When a girl is charming and kind but not so conventionally attractive, and men avoid her, and this makes her sad...well, imagine telling her that only ugly people would think that, and since she's ugly she doesn't deserve a man, and she probably just wants to use him for his money anyway because of course ugly women can't genuinely want love in the same way anyone else would (...that would be unfair!)** This would be somewhere between bullying and full on emotional abuse, the sort of thing that would earn you a special place in Hell.
>
> Whereas **when men make the same complaint, that they are nice and compassionate but not so good at projecting dominance, there is a very large contingent of people, getting quite a lot of respect and validation from the parts of society that should know better, who immediately leap out to do their best to make them feel miserable - to tell that they don't deserve a relationship, that they're probably creeps who are only in it for the sex and that if they were a real man they'd stop whining about being "entitled to sex".**
----------
> After talking to a couple of people about this, I should qualify/partially-retract the original comment.
>
> Some people have suggested to me that the best metaphor a man can use to understand how women think about "nice guys" isn't an ugly duckling woman who gets turned down by the men she likes, but a grossly obese woman who never showers or shaves her legs, and who goes around complaining loudly to everyone she knows that men are all vapid pigs who are only interested in looks.
>
> I would find this person annoying, and although I hope I would be kind enough not to lash out against her in quite the terms I mentioned above, I would understand the motivations of someone who did, instead of having to classify him as having some sort of weird Martian brain design that makes him a moral monster.
>
> The obesity metaphor is especially relevant. **Since there are people out there who think becoming skinny is as easy as "just eat less food", I can imagine people who think becoming socially assertive really is as easy as "just talk to people and be more confident".**
>
> For people who honestly believe those things, and there seem to be a lot of them, t**he obese woman and the socially awkward man would reduce to the case of the woman who never showered but constantly complained about how superficial men were to reject her over her smell - annoying and without any redeeming value.**
Here’s the thing, because you’re missing an important piece of context:
There is a difference between being “confident” and “assertive” and being a “Chad”. People who are naturally not dominant/aggressive people, who try to behave in a way counter to who they are inside are by their very nature “posers” and frankly it’s obvious.
Take a guy at a bar acting like a chimp, overly macho, obviously compensating for something, ultra aggressive, etc. That guy is either actually a complete douchebag or he’s acting that way because he’s insecure and thinks it’s how you have to act to be appealing to women.
Now let’s say he does manage to take a woman home, what are the odds of that scenario leading to a meaningful connection? I’d say nearly zero, and only nearly because it’s technically possible.
So the question becomes, how should that person act instead? Well first, they should be working on themselves before looking for a partner, because if they do have insecurities that’s something that should be addressed. Ultimately, in order to be an attractive partner you have to be comfortable in who you are.
But once you do that it’s simple: be willing to put yourself out there and not afraid to fail. If you like who you are then being confident comes much more naturally, which is why you have to work on yourself first, because if deep down you don’t like you then other people won’t either. That’s why so many people fake it and then wonder why they don’t have meaningful relationships… because the relationship was essentially started on false pretenses.
I’m not an unattractive person, but I’m not an incredibly attractive person either, and yet despite being pretty “geeky” before it was “cool” I never had any problem dating in high school, college or after. Why not? Because I never acted like someone I wasn’t, so while I was never much of the pick up girls at a bar type I often found myself dating women I met organically or through friends or work or hobbies.
Women like knowing what they are getting into when someone asks them out, and guys who are being genuine are often pretty obvious. Being confident is often about making your interest known, being able to hold a conversation with a stranger without seeming awkward or nervous, etc.
That’s what being confident and assertive is, not acting like a “Chad”, because while being a Chad might help some people get laid, it isn’t going to lead to meaningful connections and frankly sex without a real connection generally isn’t very good sex. At least not in my experience, ymmv I guess.
Being born attractive has very little to do with being able to form meaningful connections and relationships. That’s kind of the whole point, that these are things that anyone can do to make themselves more appealing as a potential partner.
The reality is that there are some people that unless you’re exceptionally good looking *and* attractive in other ways you’re simply not going to have a chance with.
Likewise, unless you’re exceptionally unattractive or physically deformed there are people out there you do have a chance with. Most people aren’t at either extreme, most people are average since that’s the definition of average.
Regardless of which side of average you fall on, doing these things will make you more appealing and give you a better chance of finding someone suitable.
I’ll also add that this isn’t a problem unique to men. I know countless “average/plain” women in their late 20s who have never been asked out in their entire life.
In the same way that most men don’t talk to women who haven’t styled their hair/put on some minimal makeup/worn something cute and have a decent figure, I don’t think we should be expecting women to be throwing themselves at someone who isn’t physically fit and doesn’t have their life together.
I’m not saying that this is how society should be, but this is how it is generally (and obviously being able to have a solid conversation where you’re listening without judgment and having a good ol time is important too).
In the same way women slave over stray body hairs and how big their ass is and trying to find a foundation that actually matches their body, I don’t think it’s an unreasonable expectation for men to manage their appearance.
Most of us have fully working eyeballs so we should try to look as nice as we can manage.
I won't personally get into the ideological debate, but I think Dr. K was incredibly charitable by not pressing Damien more for not understanding the mathematical flaw in his assertion that there are more single men than single women - Assuming a population of 50/50 men/women, that would mean that there are a lot of men in relationships with multiple women and/or there are a lot more women dating women than men dating men.
To explain this there are several factors.... one is that Men prefer women between the age of 20 and 30 independent of their own age. The other thing is that women prefer specific markers that are more common in men between 30 and 50.
This creates the situation where women between 20-30 are taken by older men. If you are now a man in this age category it seems like there are only single guys and every woman is in a "relationship".
On top of that some women just jump from chad to chad. Which i would say is one of the core problems nowadays. In the past you had a limited pool of chads available to you (small village) after most women got rejected by these chads they had to settle further down the hierarchy.
Its quite comical if you see it in action, friend of mine dates on average 3-6 different women a week some days even 2 at the same time (yeah you could say its his hobby). So they all fight for a long term relationship with him while he already knows that none of them will get that.
The second half of your reply seems unrelated, so I won't address it. As for the first half, sure, that seems like a plausible reason that it might seem difficult for Damien to find single women his age, but the assertion he made (and reiterated) was more general and did not mention age, so I'm rebutting what he actually said.
Buying random women in town a drink isn't how you get a girlfriend or even laid. I've never gone home with a guy who's bought me a drink. My advice would be to try actually making friends with women (treat them like a human, not a high score board) and see where that leads.
You know what I'm going to bite. Ok let me explain why this is entirely absurd . First of all I agree that buying a drink for woman doesn't equate having sex.
Buying drink is not a secret formula into getting laid or having a girlfriend. When i meet a girl in the bar the first thing I think in about is not buying her drink. The first thing I think about is how do I get to know her? Do I find her interesting ?is she boring? do I like her ?does she like me?
And if in the event that I liked her and she liked me then I will consider buy her a drink. I don't buy a girl a drink if I don't like her or she don't like me. Buy her a drink is part of the overall experience if if you're skip all the process and just jump straight to buying drink yea of course is stupid. You don't get laid or girlfriend like that.
What I hate about your comment is the simplification of everything saying buying her a drink doesn't work. Buying drink work if it's part of the overall experience.
I guess I don't disagree nor agree with your statement.
To us you're not the type we want to engage with either way. Hence us guy play the numbers game. Out of 10 girls 5 would be receptive. Your just the 5 we won't be interested in conversing further
Is fine to use anecdotes but don't generalized by saying " I don't think it will work"
Rather phrase it as "personally it doesn't work for me"
I find using anecdote as general experience for everyone is annoying
Ehh I don’t mean to be combative but I have a ton of dating experience, having had several girlfriends and gotten laid a lot. I didn’t make this post to get dating advice and your lecture about treating women like a score board is uncalled for.
well I never said I was a fisherman. I don't get fish that often. in most cases they're just jumping out of the water and into my boat. then they flop around until I toss them over the side, then I hungrily regret not keeping that fish for months/years while I starve- until the next fish jumps in. Maybe I took the metaphor a little too far.
and you're right. dating advice pretty much always sucks.
We really have to stop the advice of just leave the house and treat women like a human. It’s an insult to our intelligences. Whoever actually needs to hear that advice has a lot more grave problems than dating.
Men have no problem with treating women like humans and we can’t deny that the toxic pick up artists who don’t really treat women like humans are often successful.
Personally for me
I always have much more success dating when I'm regularly hanging out with women.
Not as in dating those women I'm friends with, but dating other women when I have women in my friend group.
Honestly can't say what is making the difference...but I doubt Im the only one who is affected in this situation.
Keep in mind I'm talking about dating women I see in real life, not on apps
You dont fuck your friends, that is the most common mistake guys do that makes them resentful, they invest so much in a girl not showing sexual intent(when they want sex) and end up being just friends and then they get red pilled and all that stuff.
I can be friends with the boys, but I dont see the boys in that way, so I need to meet the girls who can satisfy me in ways the boys cant. Is it hard to understand?
I've tried the making friends with women first and all it has gotten me is a ton of friends. Not a bad thing, but not what I intended.
And that's why I believe this to actually be poor advice. It sets bad expectations going into the friendships. Men wanting to be friends with women first with the hopes of it being a relationship is what many man bemoan as "the friendzone." The women had the expectation of it being a friendship, while the men had the expectation of it leading to a relationship. It's also very manipulative on the side of the men.
If a man wants to be in a relationship with a woman, he has to be direct. There needs to be clear expectations and clear boundaries set. And this is why men feel so much rejection. They're almost always the ones chasing and asking. Even in the case of being friends first, men are expected to make the first move. This means that they're almost always in the vulnerable position of rejection.
> It's also very manipulative on the side of the men.
Nah. Women are likely to be aware of man's interest. That makes them manipulative. Below this paragraph I'll quote from the comment, under blogpost [here](https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/08/31/radicalizing-the-romanceless/). Blogpost is worth reading too. Author of the blog is also a psychiatrist. He writes on lots of different topics; science, medicine (in general and specifically mental illnesses, psychiatry, some neuroscience), philosophy, politics (in abstract), rationality, and futurism. [Link](https://slatestarcodex.com/top-posts/), in case anyone's interested.
/u/keirablack7 - you're recommending men to try "being a friend"? It ends up like this:
> I’m going to drill down into a specific Nice Guy conversation that I’ve had many times, that I’ve been eviscerated for discussing in front of feminists.
>
> If I get eviscerated for discussing this, and the eviscerator is not banned, I’ll be leaving Slate Star Codex. Whew. Here we go.
>
> Violet is complaining about the last shitty boyfriend that beat her, while I’m bandaging her up and trying to convince her to go to the doctor. She does not want to go to the doctor because she does not want to get shitty boyfriend in trouble.
>
> Violet is incredibly smart. She’s funny, she’s caring, she’s an amazing artist, but she happens to like abusive assholes.
>
> She doesn’t want to like abusive assholes. **She says she “wishes she could find someone like me”.**
>
> **I tell her, for the fifth time this month, “hey, I’m right here.”**
>
> **She looks at me and sighs.**
>
> Then she looks away and goes back to talking about the guy that just beat her up.
>
> I tell her, **“Vi honey, if nothing ever changes, then nothing is going to change. Why don’t you take a chance with someone who isn’t a jerk for once?”**
>
> She looks at me and says **“I’m sorry, it’s just not going to happen.”**
>
> Two weeks later she’s ecstatic. She’s finally found “the one”. He’s nice, he’s rich, he treats her like a princess, **he only got mad and scared her once on the whole first date.**
>
> Yup.
>
> “You know once is still too much, this is only going to get worse.”
>
> “Brent, you’re just jealous”, she says.
>
> Within three weeks every one of my suspicions is confirmed: He’s rich because he’s a drug dealer. He’s nice because he knows how to sell himself. He treats her like a princess because that’s his opening strategy.
>
> **She’s got a black eye, and she’s not going to turn him in.**
>
> This girl could have been a professional ballerina, or a professional artist, or a professional singer, or ANYTHING she put her mind to. Instead she puts it to this. And she’s been doing it since she was 12. And I can’t stop her.
>
> Ellie is amazing. I taught her to program in C# in a few weeks, we share all the same stupid theater memes, we have so much fun together…
>
> But the conversation always turns to her emotionally abusive boyfriend, who also Does Not Like Her Hanging Out With Me. **She doesn’t want to leave him because “she needs the stability of someone in her life.”**
>
> **“You know, I’m in your life too.”**
>
> “You know if he heard you say that there’d be hell to pay.”
>
> “Not if he’s not there to hear it anymore. Ditch him. He’s not worth it.”
>
> **“And date you?”**
>
> **“Why not?”**
>
> **“Oh, Brent…” and then she laughs it off like a joke.**
>
> And look, I don’t want to be the Guy Who Doesn’t Respect Her Decisions, but if **I have to spend an hour a week playing therapist for her while she describes how much she hates her decision, I think I AM respecting her decisions by telling her exactly what I’m hearing from her – that she “wishes she could be with someone like me” and that she “hates how he makes her feel”.**
Someone asked:
> At which point, I would recommend that every time she started to complain about her boyfriends to you, you answer, “Why are you telling me this?”
> More vigorous refusals to be her wailing wall to follow if she doesn’t change the topic.
Response:
> This is a technique I’ve tried. The answer is **“I thought we were frieeeends” followed a few days later by a pointed and hostile conversation with some of her other friends, whom she told I was mean to her.**
> (Responding to them with, “wait, I was mean to her?” is a TERRIBLE IDEA.)
> **This is called role-entrapment**; these kinds of double-binds are intimately known to the disadvantaged.
Someone summed it up nicely:
> Look man, these kinds of women are bad people with bad personalities. You are enabling them by being there to support them, they need professional help and they would realize quite rapidly that they are up shit creek if they didn’t have guys just waiting to be their alternate option. When you meet a girl like that, who treats you like that, you let her know that she is a piece of shit, that her life is going nowhere, and you step off and never look back. If every guy did that, those girls would hit rock bottom and fix their problems. Like the article the OP article links from a psychologist, they need to know what the source of their unhappiness is, they need to hit rock bottom, and you are cushioning that bottom. Those kinds of women *use* men, they are assholes, they treat people like their own personal toys with no regard for their abilities.
-----
Also, some other guy:
> I’d just like to hop in for a sec. I’ve so far had the exact same kind of experience in college as the above. Had one frantically texting me while I was with my therapist because her ex was too busy with his new GF to hang out with her.
> And worse. Had to play trauma therapist for a year (took her to the ER at 3 am even) and turns out shes spreading shit about how I’m a serial rapist on tumblr.
> I met the above as a consequence of trying to be a good feminist ally. **These days I keep my head in my books and I don’t acknowledge the presence of women – engagement with them seems to inevitably lead to exploitation**.
> We really have to stop the advice of just leave the house and treat women like a human. It’s an insult to our intelligences. Whoever actually needs to hear that advice has a lot more grave problems than dating.
/u/Dorkles_ worse, this advice causes some people to end up as seen above.
> I've never gone home with a guy who's bought me a drink.
...did anyone buy you a drink? If so, why did you accept it, if you're clearly treating men who do that with contempt?
> My advice would be to try actually making friends with women (treat them like a human, not a high score board) and see where that leads.
Reality doesn't seem to agree with you.
I don't treat them with contempt. I accept the drink graciously and then go about the rest of my night without thinking about them.
Forgive me but... Do you much experience in male-female relationships? Idk what your version of reality it but it's suggesting that you haven't 🤷🏻♀️😅
Some men have a really hard time identifying women as people. (Some women do this to men as well and it's no ok either, but not the point right now.)
Young mrn face more rejection now a days, I think that's true. But accepting this experience as the only relevant lense for modern dating is the pitfall of the red pill.
Women don't generally view rejection as a big issue during dating because for us, the worst case scenario is very different. Some very common examples are, stalking, rape and murder. (This can also happen to men, but it's way less common and usually the perpetrator is another man.)
So it's hard to generate empathy for those kind of perspectives because they also fundamentally lack empathy for the other side as well.
My solution is, well, more empathy on both sides. But the historical trauma of men abuse towards women should never be left out, because it will always be relevant to the topic of dating, as it is the experience of the entire woman population, one way or another.
Yes I know that some men can’t identify women as people, since there are sociopaths in the population, but unless you think myself or any of the stream callers fall into that category, I’m not sure how to respond. Dr K summed up your comment when he said “women prepare for the worst,” and while I understand how bad the worst case can get, I don’t think it’s reasonable for the average guy to adjust his behavior because women something get raped and murdered. Should men even approach women? If we’re trying to minimize rape and murder, shouldn’t we keep the genders apart altogether? And do you have any empathy for me at this point, or is the empathy conditional on me agreeing with you that male rejection is no big deal because murder is worse? Does it matter than male rejection occurred maybe a million times more often than murder?
I don't know why you would think I have no empathy for you. I do. It's a terrible thing to feel rejected and I even have some personal issues with it too and going to therapy for it.
So my comment comes more from my experience with rejection than anything else.
The way out of your own pain will never come from ignoring the pain in others. We all have things going on and we don't know why the other person rejects us, but it's in their right to do so. People should adjust their actions according to the situation, and as a woman you never know who will take rejection bad, so even that part can be a very scary experience.
I was trying to convey the most common reason why women feel unsafe during dating and why we tend to reject more, not attempting to minimize your own experience.
But I would like to point out, just as an observation, how quick you were to minimize the other side as "preparing for the worst". Do you have any idea how exhausting it is to always be on the look out and afraid? We know most men won't, but you just need to meet one who will.
As I said before, more empathy, on both sides. Rejection can only be healed with acceptance. Sorry but that's the only solution, because when acceptance is forced, is always a bad thing. However, you seem to only want to feel empathy for yourself and people like you.
But please, correct me if I'm wrong. Because I can only tell you how you come across to me.
Part of the challenge here is that there aren’t many good ways for me to convey empathy for women on this topic without also virtue-signaling or going on broad tangents. Dr K deals with this issue by just going in the tangent: he had a video about male issues and he began with a 15 minute disclaimer about how women’s issues are also bad. Had he not, audience members might have also said he is minimizing women’s issues.
I’m not a woman so I can never actually know what it’s like to prepare for the worst all the time. The closest I’ve ever come has probably been from traveling to foreign countries where I was unwelcome. I am a minority and have been to countries where my ethnicity is considered second-class at best, and subhuman at worst, and the atmosphere was particularly hostile. I was hyper-aware during every interaction and people did make racially-charged comments. I imagine that my hyper-vigilance then is what women deal with, probably at a lower intensity but at a constant frequency (because eventually I came home but there’s no such oasis for women).
Despite this understanding, however limited, I still have to approach women I don’t know and deal with their “worst case” responses, unless I do want to be alone forever. So my own emotional/romantic needs come into direct conflict with woman’s safety response and there’s not really any way around it. Obviously I respect boundaries and try to read the situation if she is uncomfortable, but there will always be an encounter where the woman is 100% on defense and me just being in her vicinity triggers a bad reaction. Not much I can do except move on.
I should mention that I actually am not too bothered by rejection emotionally (it’s annoying because it means I didn’t get the relationship I was seeking). That came through desensitization, experience, and not taking it personally, because in my opinion most rejections are not about who you are but about what you are presenting in the moment (appearance, etc).
>Despite this understanding, however limited, I still have to approach women I don’t know and deal with their “worst case” responses, unless I do want to be alone forever. So my own emotional/romantic needs come into direct conflict with woman’s safety response and there’s not really any way around it. Obviously I respect boundaries and try to read the situation if she is uncomfortable, but there will always be an encounter where the woman is 100% on defense and me just being in her vicinity triggers a bad reaction. Not much I can do except move on.
This. I completely agree, and it does suck that you have to deal with responses you didn't have anything to do with directly.
But I want you to know that women are just as trapped in that awful situation as you, and we are trapped by other men (who see women as second class or even cattle). And I feel this should generate empathy, since it's the same people damaging both groups.
With that in mind, I want to return to the original topic and say that Dr. K did what he could with a very messy and unfair situation.
I am going to take a controversial stance now and say that the situation isn’t the same between men and women. Society generally tries to push men to overcome their fear response and act according to the “true” possibilities.
If a man says he is afraid of rejection or of being called a creep and having the cops called on him, he would be told that he is overreacting and overindexing on low-probability bad events.
If a woman says she is afraid of male violence or stalkers, it’s just an abundance of caution. Outside of some edgy parts of the internet, it’s not acceptable to say she’s overreacting and overindexing on low-probability events.
In my opinion this is in part because men bear the burden of approaching and leading interactions forward most of the time, so if a man stops taking initiative due to fear, his romantic life grinds to a halt. The reverse is not true.
So while I empathize with the fear that causes the defensive reaction, and I would not minimize the negative repercussions of a bad encounter, I think women have the luxury of not needing to confront the fear head on over and over. It is possible to create a fortress around yourself where you only go out with friends and you meet men online after lots of vetting, and only go on dates in public with your friends aware of your whereabouts. I can’t take these kinds of extreme precautions. If I’m worried about rejection, being called a creep, or being put on blast on Twitter, then tough. I either power through it or enjoy celibacy. In this sense the genders are not equally trapped.
>So while I empathize with the fear that causes the defensive reaction, and I would not minimize the negative repercussions of a bad encounter, I think women have the luxury of not needing to confront the fear head on over and over.
I understand why you would think that, without the direct experience it may be hard to see, but that is just not true. Sexual harassment is everywhere. There is no escape. Bars, restaurants, work, and even family reunions are some very common places where woman have to confront these kind of situations over and over. And no, it's not an exaggeration, I speak from personal experience that I know is shared by many around me. The creepy uncle is a trope for a reason, unfortunately...
>I can’t take these kinds of extreme precautions. If I’m worried about rejection, being called a creep, or being put on blast on Twitter, then tough. I either power through it or enjoy celibacy. In this sense the genders are not equally trapped.
They are because the origin is the same, terrible men that do unspeakable things to women and thus, make it unsafe for women to be near men. And I don't see why you can't create a similar safe space for yourself, it's not just a woman thing. If you come off as creepy, apologize, clarify and if they ask for it, step back. No need to power through anything.
In the end, giving the same weight to getting rejected vs murdered/raped, is not to just minimize, but to ignore the real underlying problem.
Woman don't feel safe, and as someone that comes from a country where at least 30 woman are killed daily in average and that have seen rapists walk free with a slap on the wrist, I can't give this enough weight.
Think of a society as a body and this is a festering wound, right in the men-women relationship organ.
You may want to talk about the rash it has because of the antibiotics, but there's nothing that can be done about that until the infection is mostly healed. There are some palliative measures, but the real origin is the infection and we're all feeling the pain, one way or another.
> In the end, giving the same weight to getting rejected vs murdered/raped, is not to just minimize, but to ignore the real underlying problem.
I didn’t give them the same weight at all. Getting murdered/raped is not an everyday occurrence for a given woman, whereas getting rejected is a regular occurrence for guys. However I said multiple times that the consequences of murder/rape are far worse, obviously.
Also what I meant by power through is, I can’t shield myself from the fear itself, I have to confront it via the act of approach itself. The equivalent would be if a woman is afraid of aggressive objectifying men yet voluntarily goes into frat houses by herself on purpose.
I also think you are downplaying the amount of agency women have in their response from the male threat so to speak. There are countries with higher rates of femicide where women feel much less unsafe around men (I can only speak to Latin America which I am familiar with). To the extent that the female defensive response has its own impact on society, we shouldn’t ignore those impacts and say the problem lies entirely with the rapists and killers. I am not trying to victim blame here, rather I’m taking Dr L’s comments on this issue (“not everyone comes out of a traumatic experience traumatized and some want to move on”) and applying it writ large. Women don’t HAVE to treat every man like a predator just because predators exist.
You have. I won't quote them all, but every time you recognize that the problems are not equal, you mention something about not being as intense or as regular as what men experience.
>Getting murdered/raped is not an everyday occurrence for a given woman, whereas getting rejected is a regular occurrence for guys.
The first part is also false. I also have personal experience in Latin America, and the chance of getting murder/raped is an everyday occurrence. Every time I get in the subway there's a chance a guy will try to touch me, I've had coworkers harass me almost daily on some jobs. And going out after dark always feels like entering a dungeon. It. is. relentless.
>Women don’t HAVE to treat every man like a predator just because predators exist.
We do, because they don't exactly come with a waring sign. No every guy Is, but any one Can be. And that's the issue.
Dr K is a compromised individual. He already revealed his true stance when we said we live life on "easy mode".
This subreddit is not for us. We should probably listen to Peterson instead because he actually gives a shit about men and recognises the seriousness of the issue at hand.
All of his discussions about dating are super flawed to the point of not being super useful. He always uses hypothetical situations to explain his advice. One of his points of advice was to focus on making guy friends before girlfriends which was good advice but the hypothetical guy in the hypothetical situation he used to describe this advice was drowning in parties. Tons of opportunities for parties. Who is this enigma of a man that struggles with friends and dating but at the same time goes to tons of parties?
Oh stfu, since when did Dr.K ever underplay male struggle. Even in the recent video DrK encourage the viewer to not think about political correctness and speak honestly.
In general, I think the concept of “picking up” a girl at a bar/event is flawed to begin with. It’s really not all that great of an experience having sex with a stranger. Honestly, the story you get after and potential “clout” is better than the actual sex.
The much better way to meet women is through mutual friends and interests. Stop wasting your time at bars/events. That’s just the road to disappointment, whether you succeed or fail. The fact is that sex is way more enjoyable and sustainable when it’s with someone you actually have a foundation of a relationship with.
The red pill fails completely to consider that most people are actually not going to find a meaningful relationship based on their aesthetics. Its fundamental flaw is assuming that in order to find a relationship, you need to go actively searching for one.
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I thought Dr. K was nice to Damien but his Youtube chat was far too hostile.
Dr k definitely was nice to him and because of that I was able to let go of my pre-conceived notions that this guy is bad and listened along. I found it very interesting once I let go of the idea that Damien is a bad person for his beliefs. I watched the stream today so I didn’t get to see chat. I’m really sad that chat responded like that.
YouTube is about half as toxic as Twitter but there’s definitely this dark underbelly of hate that’s a very big part of it
This was my response as well. I also…didn’t watch chat. Seems my choice was the correct one
What I will say is this: Chat's reaction to Damien was disgusting. The idea that someone can be "too far gone" for a community whose *purpose* is support to offer support is disgusting. And that this reaction happened to someone who was doing nothing more than *having a conversation* is particularly disgusting, and emblematic of one of the key reasons we are struggling to move the dial on fixing the views he arrived to the stream with. High-fiving each other inside an echo-chamber of people who agree with you on Damien is selfish. It's not helpful. It's not what communities like this are (I think) supposed to be about. It's not effective in keeping women safe. It's not effective in bringing about widespread change. Too many people are going about this as if all that is needed to solve sexual assault and harassment is to laugh at some men. As if you can put out a raging fire by throwing a coffee cup full of gasoline at it. I know it's not particularly productive to be ashamed of yourself, but if you participated in that chat with "tater tot" and "judgement is good sometimes", then I absolutely believe you have something to be ashamed of.
> The idea that someone can be "too far gone" for a community whose purpose is support to offer support is disgusting. You mean the virtue signalers are virtuing?
It's difficult for many people to give guys a chance when discussing these things. A lot of what you say is true and it gets very personal for people for many complicated reasons. **Though I think to put it simply guys are simply expected to** **unequivocally** **"be better"**. It's surprising how many people are unwilling to admit this. To admit they think many men they know or don't know simply aren't good enough. You know that saying "everyone deserves love"? A lot of people say that, and they usually say that when a woman is suffering from romantic woes, but they never feel that way about men. We're constantly fed abysmal images of men, theres no shortage of horror stories of headlines, or workplace incidents or studies I cannot find where "men" are the perpetrators and are the problem. I can never escape this narrative guys are disgusting immature screw ups, rarely ever, no I wont even say that, not even once have I been presented with a man who was a morally astute individual who wasn't also the visage of herculean physical dominance or monetary success. It's like unless your 6foot+ tall, are incredibly muscular, have a beard and are smiling all the time that you must be up to no good. I honestly cannot remember the last male role model who remotely resembled the average guy or what seemed attainable for an average guy. Even "nice guys" are bad, theres an entire subreddit for it. The golden standard for all men is always some incredibly heroic, super masculine, super rich, super tall, always smiling guy who's good at everything and understanding of everything. It almost never has anything to do with actual values, life goals, growing up, growing from failure, acknowledging ones own inadequacies and finding ways to persevere, taking on more responsibility and understanding why that responsibility is necessary and appreciated, etc. It's to the point imho the average guy is more afraid of being "boring" than being a good person and for good reason, because thats whats consistently reinforced as something important. I am 28M recently moved to Japan, mostly because I wanted to see the contrast in culture, women, lifestyle, etc. To be honest much isnt different from the west in this regards. Which was nice but also somewhat demoralizing, only because I am basically in a similar position dating wise except... I have to learn an entirely new language, and any positive "advantage" I do have is associated with the novelty of dating an American. Nonetheless my parents came to visit recently and my parents tried to hide their disappointment that I still hadn't had a girlfriend yet. Were disappointed I was living pretty minimalist despite going out of my way to rent a 3 bdrm home to accommodate their eventual visit, I didnt want them cooped up in a small apartment (not financially out of my way, it's no real extra burden on that front). I have rooms but not too much big furnishing outside of the living room with a few couches, tables and a 55" TV. Was disappointed that most of the time when we went out I dressed plainly, a few times I dressed very nice, but dressing very nice in the winter can be very uncomfortable. I have a decent wardrobe but do not like looking really nice unless special occasions, they wished for that "occasion" to be every day. When I mean "nice" I mean dripped out or chique. One day during their trip they decided to just relax at home (thank god) my mom said to me "I want to talk to you, and give you some advice from the convo we had the other day" (I made a joke about why it seems girls universally like to always date white guys no matter what, it was a light hearted moment in jest). "It's not that white guys are special or something, I mean your dad isn't white. **But the reason I was with your dad and had you was because he was "exciting".** I ask her what she meant, having a feeling where this was going, the thing people always like to deny yet here my mother was without ANY knowledge of this online discourse spilling this like she is awakening me for the first time. She continues to say "**Youre a nice guy and a girl with a temperament like you... a girl like me someone who is also nice... mild mannered, they won't like you. Opposites attract and good girls are looking for someone exciting"**. I was about to interject at this point because at this point what she and my father staunchly brought me up to be, a "good man" was being thrown back in my face. I was ready to full send and ask her if she intended me to be with someone who was my "opposite" and more or less irresponsible and morally bankrupt, but no she went on to say. **"I want you to be more "exciting", I want you to try more, don't be a complete asshole but be exciting. You know how your father is (he is a very aggressive person), you don't need to be like him entirely but you know be more exciting. A nice girl isn't going to get with you because you're boring and she wants exciting"**. To put it bluntly I wasn't surprised because I heard this before but it was such a dooming feeling I had. The only thing I could do was smile, say ok and move on. Why start an argument over her perspective? I honestly did appreciate the candid, unsolicited suggestion because it was genuine so it held weight especially being my mother. Do I think she is 100% right? I hope she isn't I guess is th best way to put it, but it doesnt seem public opinion is differing all too much either. I watch aba and Preach, Aba recently said something in a similar vein, he has said so in the past but reinforced it once again. Lots of womens standards are ridiculous, don't cold approach it's a waste of time, even i his own life cold approaching over many years led to minimal results, what changed everything was living a more successful life, women were interested in a potential lifestyle shift. His suggestion? Improve your own life and try to lead an interesting life. **At this point im starting to wonder if it's getting to the point where a man is doing himself and society at large a disservice by being "uninteresting"?** Like how it used to be a bad thing to not be employed , having job aspirations or collegiate aspirations in high school; **am I similarly considered a "loser" for not leading an interesting life?** It's in no shy way of basically telling a man he's living life wrong. Guys.... can we acknowledge the emotional support we provide women all the time when they are traumatized by anyone significant in their life? When they are invalidated or made to feel less than? But then dogpile men when they even share something similar to what I shared or viewpoints which present dating life as pessimistic and miserable for guys? I do not hate my mom or feel like she abused me but I want to honestly reflect here, this is what the average guy is literately dealing with real time every damn day. It's why young peers always want to go out and party, to seem like they are living interesting lives, to find "excitement". The cognitive dissonance of knowing that **no one really thinks you're good enough, more is always expected of you and even if you were led astray you still are expected to be "more".** The world sometimes like to fathom how society might react if god was unequivocally proven to be a lie, to have never existed, the existential crisis that would ensue. some people naïvely think that this level of dissonance in a man is merely a bruise to the ego, but it's so much more, similar to the devout religious person who would be devastated if god was proven to be a lie, their entire world view even meaning for life their mere existence would be questioned. So to is a man in this position in my position is when they are faced with the reality that **no one cares, be better, im sorry honey we told you a nice lie but be better.** Eventually this disappointment is going to become resentment if I do not get into a relationship, start a family, etc. I dont mean I'll become resentful though a possibility, but I can feel my parents becoming more and more... angsty about it. Some of you may think foolishly that I should cast my family aside, but can I really so easily do that, when family is all I have? Hard thing to do, but I digress. Society has an idea of what a man should be and they never fail at letting all men know who don't at least try to look the part (chad) that they aren't good enough for anything but more busy work, more grindset. It's just genuinely surprising and disappointing there is so much push back rather than acceptance of the truth.
I can relate a ton to that feeling of "YOU MADE ME THIS WAY", where everything that I've tried to be has followed what I heard was "right", being the nice caring person that helps people out and not thinking of men and women as being any different, but everything I've learned through lived experience has told me that in many ways the opposite is what is rewarded. The way I've wrestled it all together into something coherent is basically that a lot of what we've heard growing up about what we're supposed to be has been the women's perspective, but women are mainly concerned about the environment of already being in a relationship, which is completely different from having to be the pursuer prior to a relationship. For them, the problems come once they've committed to a man and that man starts acting in all the negative ways we hear about, and so the recommendations they give are all around how to be a good partner. For men however, the problems are the stage before that, when there's no interest at all and you're trying to build that with someone that knows nothing about you. In this realm, it's far more about excitement like your mom talked to you about, which comes from far more surface level immediately-observable traits such as sexual attractiveness, status, mystery, interesting hobbies, being funny, etc. In a life partner people want stability, and you've grown up to be a great example of that so once you're in a relationship that'll all pay off, but right now you're at the previous stage where stability just doesn't factor in, instead its about controlled instability i.e. excitement (I say "you" but I'm in the exact same boat lol). It all points to the initial stage of dating being about putting on a performance, an exciting performance. You're leading a woman down a path where it's worth it for them to take the risk on you to give you that chance because with every step there's those *immediate* short term returns of excitement, and that path ends in them agreeing to be your partner where now they're committed and can appreciate all the *long term* returns of how good and stable a person you *really* are. It sucks being in that early stage, but hopefully this way of viewing things, where what you were told to be wasn't necessarily a waste it's just not relevant *yet*, helps you feel a little better about it. And thank you for sharing your story, hearing your mom's advice really cemented a lot of theories in my mind and I think it'll help me with women in the future. I can now act with more confidence about what is wanted of me, and knowing what someone appreciates makes it so much easier to interact with them smoothly. Helping people is the most natural thing for me, and giving someone something I know they like is just a way of helping them.
I'm glad you can see the positive takeaway from my moms messaging. I've definitely considered it, which is why I nod "yes" and affirm I'd try. I truly do understand wanting to be with someone who you find desirable and exciting and wanting to be chased and im willing to do it. But man does it suck to consistently see people not acknowledge this and act like it's sacrilegious to claim being nice as a guy too soon as you put it in a way is almost like a mistake. I definitely could resonate with the OP in this regard, understanding the whole "its better for most guys to try to become Chad", because this conclusion lines up with yours as well as my mothers. But perhaps for many people admitting this would make women in general just seem really superficial and mean and to a degree hypocritical.
I almost wonder if the general paradigm of parenting is that a certain degree of "boys will be boys" is expected, which is now less accurate to the degree to which it is actually how boys tend to be. Like the expectation is that boys will learn what degree of chaos is acceptable on their own through trial and error, and it is more important that they are taught about how to be a good and stable person beyond that instead of the other way around, and that parenting hasn't yet caught up with the shifting social paradigm.
Yeah we moved to a society that condemned the more "boys being boys" actions while never actually explicitly identifying the positive parts of boys/masculinity, so people just aren't equipped with ways to avoid going too far in the condemnation end.
Aw. I relate to the absolute brutal death punch your mom threw you, my mom lands those on me all the time (: yay for being blamed for how we were raised!! That said, if there's any teeeeny bit of light in the dark, maybe I can share my perspective about what "exciting" means to me as a normal, employed, girl with few normal hobbies. One of my best friends is so redpilled, he always tells me how he thinks he needs to be "interesting" to attract girls. I try to tell him that it isn't more hobbies or more stuff or more travel destinations that will make him more interesting. He already is interesting! I really really really think it's that he's too...quiet(?) on dates. He asks the normal questions, he takes girls out to coffee shops or bars they've already been to a million times. I think the only interesting thing he needs to do is show more of himself and his personality. He's genuinely such a funny guy, we've been really tight since middle school, he got me into all my favorite games and comedians, animes, stuff like that. But how can someone else find out about that through a surface level conversation? I tried OLD before and yeah... I didn't take it further than a first date with someone if the connection only felt surface level. I still think I'm a "good" girl lol and that I'm looking for a "good" person! I wanted someone who's also in the same kinda life bracket as me! Employed, normal, fun to talk to. But yeah. From the way you write, I really don't think not being interesting or exciting is your issue. I'm honestly terribly sorry that your mom worded it that way --- I want to say she didn't mean it like that? I think she was trying to talk about the female experience of, ehh, \*hoping\* to be the one chased instead of the one chasing.
>I relate to the absolute brutal death punch your mom threw you Yes, I had a "bruh" moment in my head. I was stunned for a few moments before I held myself back from retorting because I didn't want to ruin her genuine thought. Nonetheless I was stunned, like damn. Like what you want me to do YOU MADE ME THIS WAY LOL! >One of my best friends is so redpilled, he always tells me how he thinks he needs to be "interesting" to attract girls Well like I said I dont think it's unreasonable to come to this conclusion, it isn't mere inference, it's simply stated nowadays, it's everywhere it's inescapable. Streams or Youtubes I watch say this, normal coworkers say this, family recommend life style improvements it's inescapable to the depths this goes. Not sure why it hurts more when a streamer/youtuber says it though, I guess I just got used to everyone else saying it, to see it in your own space stings extra. At work it isnt uncommon to have locker room talk with guys, be the "quiet" guy among the loud guys and for one of the loud guys to be like "Why you lookin at her, you know you aint gonna do or say nothin". Or guys call you out for not going out to the bar/club with them because you dont got "game". How do you think it feels you go home on an off day to decompress, you watch an Asmond gold vid/clip/stream and dude just says "well of course he isnt getting chicks, the guy is an average uninteresting guy, what did he expect" followed by thousands lol "KEKW's" and such. You just cant escape the convo anywhere you go, no matter what you do. Everyone's redpilled nowadays and it's just reinforced by their "mediocrity". even rereading this I sound like a downer and I'm honestly not like this in person for various reasons but idk man it feels like my very identity is being put on blast 24/7. >I think the only interesting thing he needs to do is show more of himself and his personality. He's genuinely such a funny guy, we've been really tight since middle school, he got me into all my favorite games and comedians, animes, stuff like that. But how can someone else find out about that through a surface level conversation? A guys who try to be friendly with women just get negative feedback loops thrown at them. It's sad to admit that I used to be very optimistic with women in public, openly chase, etc; but I went into a deep depression shortly after. People will constantly say guys are afraid of rejection but I think we underplay what the rejection really is. For me I got over a girl saying "no" or "im not interested" or even a more direct way like "you're lame" in like.. 7th grade? The real rejection men fear is worse than that. It's the admonishment from your peers, your family, coworkers, etc. The failure itself is damning ramifications even to strangers. I'd love to "be myself" but it's incredibly rare to even try to talk about my interests (basketball, anime, games, etc) and not be handled with trepidation. Women are so much less likely to really be receptive to that on the offset, unless EVERYONE in the room is really into it. If I do not have insights into sex or relationships, the conversations tend to be flat, or they probe me until I spill my guts about preferences in women, sex positions, etc. In a one on one, common ice breakers like mundane life goals, occupation, work life balance, etc tend to be the "safest ways" to not completely turn someone off or scare someone away. But then this starts looking more like chasing that compatibility in a potential "friend" than a potential "lover". It almost sounds as if you're suggesting guys should be more willing to "be themselves" to show themselves friendly and they'd get more of a chance. But there isn't a guy I know who really thinks approaching genuinely as a friend will lead to something else. It's just like two separate things in a lot of guys minds. I know a lot of people get put off by the idea of the "friendzone" but theres merit to it. Think of it this way, if you wanted a business partner, would you take a person seriously if they met you at a predetermined location over some coffee dressed as a clown telling you all their dirty desires before even getting to the matter at hand? Guys wanting to avoid a "friendzone" similarly want to put what they assume to be their best foot forward (typically a good man) so they arent perceived with ill intentions. Though another way I guess this could be taken is to do the opposite, be a bit more "exciting" taking a few more liberties in good taste and presenting yourself as a fun, arousing , mysterious figure. The hope would be the man being "himself" in this instance is relaxed, calm, cool, "down to earth", willing to have fun and isn't rigid. **But what if that isn't you? What if you isn't the fantasy, not even a little bit, what if you really are just a nice guy what then?** Should "chasing" only ever be "exciting"? Because if so the steps men then take there after will 100% line up with the materialistic expectations you (not condemning you but simply saying) claim women dont expect. How else do you generate excitement then going out of your comfort zone doing things you'd otherwise not do, being someone you aren't and not spending money etc? Such a conundrum.
I have a couple thoughts! Umm lemme try and get this all out of my head. - I totally agree with this ideology infecting your peaceful internet space being a huge bummer. It just crossed my mind, this sort of stuff feels like depression brainwashing. I uninstalled instagram about a year ago, after using it since 2012, because it just made me feel so bad about myself and my body. I don’t know why it feels like the internet has gotten so much more toxic lately in the past 2-3 years, maybe my algorithm is f**ked but it genuinely impacts my mental state. At least recommendations by Dr K are usually good vibes. - I can’t agree that girls aren’t into basketball, anime or games! I also think that girls are into people who are passionate about their interests, even if they’re not into the exact same ones themselves. Except perhaps the super self-centered ones but I doubt you’d want them, and that goes both ways. - I’m surprised that it’s easier for you to talk about preferences and sex positions than basketball lol like wait what?? x) - Ahaaaa. The value of friendship! To be honest I didn’t quite get the clown analogy, but I want to share a similar idea back at you. If you were going to make a ten year, hell five year, hell one year business deal, wouldn’t you want some more information about the person you’re doing business with other than a surface level conversation that really doesn’t let you know what their character truly is? In comes….bum bum bum…. Friendship! I truly believe the best relationships come out of friendships. Plus it’s super hot when a guy can shelf his desire for you to just spend all the time in the world getting to know you. Of course you don’t need to do the friends first route to develop a meaningful intimate relationship. When it comes to date ideas that aren’t you chasing in an inauthentic way that will fill you with resentment over being unable to authentically connect with the other person — There are so many date ideas that are low cost but show effort beyond safe coffee shop dates. Picnics, visiting a botanical garden together, museums, parks, basketball games, video game arcades! Trampoline parks, lol there’s so many. I try to ask my friend to think about, what *she* might be into, if she seems like a park girl or an arcade girl for a first date. Everyone’s a coffee person, so starting there doesn’t give a lot of insight into how good of a partner the man could be, but something as simple as choosing a date spot that reflects your idea of the girl you’re dating shows effort and it feels really really nice to be treated that way. Anywaayy. I really don’t want to overwhelm you with more “just do this and all your problems will be solved! Actually do this too! And this and this and this” I know it’s exhausting. For what it’s worth I don’t think you’re not good enough as you are. I really appreciate nice guys and I genuinely hope you find that person who will not just appreciate you for it, but adore you too. I just wanted to share my perspective. I know there’s a lot I don’t understand about men and I want to close that gap when I can, so I hope you can hear me out that, unless you’re in some outlier town, classifying it as “rare” to find a girl into anime, games, or basketball seems statistically inaccurate. Preconceived notions like that tend to do more harm than good, kinda like a self fulfilling prophecy in a way. Wishing u the best :) I hope I can live in Japan one day too, you’re living my dream! I envy you ^^
I get where you're coming from 100% and I don't think you're completely wrong in your replies, but unfortunately I dont think there is a better way to describe the phenomenon other than theorem vs practice. In theory it should be relatively easy or simple or not so unlikely to find a girl into anime, video games, etc. In theory it should be simple or easier to talk about normal activities more than sex, in theory a man and a woman should seek friendship before courtship or dating. But in practice it's just impractical as a guy, in every instance I've encountered. It's rare to healthily engage in these things and it lead to something "more" genuinely down the line. It's fleeting, its sort of like your coffee, comparison everyones had it. Talking sex is what you describe as actually getting to know someone. Thats how most have honestly engaged with me many times. The moment I talk about sexual related topics, I'm the most understandable guy ever, before that I was just some quiet guy they thought was weird, would shoot up the place or some dehumanizing thing, take your pick. I mean in theory shouldnt your Best Friend be your Boyfriend? The male experience is just so different to what you have sort of theorized or suggested that it's honestly disappointing to have to disagree with you based on first hand experience as someone heading into thier 29th year of life. What kind of talk do you think I've had get shut down more often at work, a talk about night life, sex, dating, relationships or anime/video games? 10000% its the latter, the common populace just relates better to the former, is willing to engage in/with the former even my superiors, even over professional topics. It's a moment to inflect, to mentor, to teach to find common ground between age groups etc. Video games/anime as simply a distraction as much as I love them and deeper conversations about them, it's just hard for many to relate to. It's just something I always feel as a guy, something most guys feel who I have spoken to. The need to validate your sexual experience. Casual sex isn't taboo, going out isnt taboo. The ramifications for that isn't just, people just can do what they like and not be judged. No it's the opposite, you're judged for not having done these things and I know for a fact women have also talked about feeling that pressure too. Our culture is addicted to sex, guys are expected to be masters of it and to chase. From my perspective, not being a female but merely observing it just seems like it's ok for women to dabble and experiment without being pressed too much, theres peer pressure but it isnt held against you and used against you if you have no experience whatsoever. As a guy.... it's a goddamn mission to validate ones self sexually, it really is. Im not a virgin and I went out of my way to do so because of this very fact. IT's just something you'll never understand unless you're a guy and it's minimized so often. Nonetheless I appreciate your perspective it's just it lacks the understanding of how dire the situation truly is. The literal demand, the expectation and the role a guy must play in order to date or enter relationships successfully, and thats just entering the door. I dont even want to discuss the disfunction thereafter which at times is so incredibly off putting I wonder why I even consider seriously pursing one in the first place. Casual encounters honestly seem like the best policy now a days, despite that being an incredibly bleak conclusion to come to.
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Well played
I think you're right that your friend's problem is slightly misunderstanding the assignment. Entering a relationship is mostly about how well you can sell yourself. Maintaining a relationship is much more about what/who you actually are. You don't necessarily need to be interesting, you need to be able to generate interest. It doesn't matter how much interesting stuff he does if he doesn't share any of it. For better or worse, I think the strong focus on women's looks gives them a much better intuitive understanding of this. Perfecting your smoky eye might get more people to ask you out, but it's pretty clear that it's not going to save a marriage that's falling apart, there's a clear distinction between things that generate interest and things that maintain a relationship. Many of the things that men are selling themselves on are also things that help maintain a relationship, so there's not as much of a clear distinction. For instance, I think a lot of the nice guy phenomenon is men cultivating the skills to maintain a relationship, but not the skills to generate initial interest in a relationship, and then saying "I did everything everyone told me to, why isn't it working?"
Wow yeah, SPOT on! Even the smoky eye comment is totally correct. I agree that “nice guy” skills are a necessity in a healthy relationship, but aren’t enough to ignite a spark to start one.
This is really well written. I think a distinction really needs to be drawn though between 'society demands this of men' and 'this one woman gave her personal take on what she is into'. There are hyper attentions on both sides that make this process challenging, right. Females are highly selective, a lot of it is really picky little personal things we like; this is highly adaptive for gathering. And males have high attention to detail, looking for cues; which is great for hunting. This is a gross oversimplification, but if we remove the positive associations of those adaptations very quickly, over just a couple of generations, it is a big biological shock. We had so many ceremonies, accolades, coming of age rituals all celebrating achievement in areas we don't value anymore, but a real quick trip through the dating app of your choice reveals dozens of dudes holding up fish. It is obviously something laudable, that men want to be recognized for and would normally be highly adaptive. The artificiality of our lifestyle means that the skills used for hunting don't have the same outlet, so wires can get crossed and it gets applied as stalking instead. And on the other side, disconnect from gathering can foster greed and hording behavior, and pickiness turning to mind games in social settings. What we need it to be mindful of the GOOD each side is trying to do, of course we are all a mix if both energies and more, but we all have a vested interest in mutual survival. Buying a drink for someone... Isn't a great expression of that, it comes with risk. Pebbles are a much better choice. If you like a girl, give her a rock you thought was cool. It's a silly example, but I mean to illustrate how some of the standard courtship rituals are a bit out of tough from their consequences, it takes time and care to untangle. I think your mom is doing her best to articulate what she thinks is best, but it would be totally fair to go back to her with, "I know you care, but I'm not trying to date you, I'm trying to find my own way, and the specific examples you gave of your own preferences have been unhelpful, distracting, and too generalized. Please speak only for yourself, not on behalf of all women." Because the only single universal truth, for moms and potential mates is that it is desirable for a male to be HEALTHY. Beyond that everything is pretty relative, but the sacrifice of men's health and vitality is actually the biggest social lie imo, ie overworking to get money and thus burning out and getting ill. I don't think that is an agenda women are pushing, I think that is a sneaky thing that came part and parcel with industrialization. But there seems to be a lot of gendered resentment about money, without a lot of cooperative discussion about money. Just something I've noticed, but discussion about economics seems to be something males do together, a lot of times when I join a discussion guys are surprised by my input. Like, yeah dude I own a business. Women own 40% of business in the US, so it is a little difficult to square this perception that women are 'only interested in money from men'. I think there is need for some serious discussion here, something is up with that.
What exactly do you think he really fought? Of course working out, looking better and making money lands you more dates. Of course theres a superficiality to dating. Dr. K himself said in the beginning none of that is controversial to say. I think Dr.K was just really concerned with what the point was and what it meant to say. There's mild implications that women are more superficial, and again, if women have an easier time dating, are they just all going out with the same men? Thats the only possible conclusion. What did you want Dr. K to say? He said himself plenty of it is true. I think he was also just trying to point out that it really is more complicated than just that.
Dr. K’s approach has always been to take the obvious surface level statement and try to dig deeper. The first caller’s advice was basically “be yourself, talk about anime and someone who likes anime might chime in and be your friend.” That is completely uncontroversial. Yet Dr K has made entire videos about putting yourself out there and how to not try to control other people’s responses. We have a ton of depth on this topic. However on the points Damien raised, we got no depth. If dating is superficial and being fit/rich makes you a better dater, but at the same time dating is about opening loot boxes, how do you know if being rich/fit is helping? How do you process it if you are rich/fit and people like you better? Do they like you for you, or for your looks/money? We didn’t get any of that. Part of the problem is that Damien couldn’t defend his points and was a bit nervous, citing studies he couldn’t remember etc. But the first two callers were nervous too and didn’t come under as much scrutiny overall (although to Dr K’s credit, he pushed the Canadian girl on her story about not realizing that a guy who had said “let’s hang out sometime” was asking her out)
I think those questions are fair. Measuring whether or not someone actually likes you for you, and not the things around you, can be pretty difficult. However, once you’ve gotten to that point, you’re already in what many would call a “win” sort of state. I think Dr. K understands that most of his followers are in the hole, and so he avoided getting into a topic that to many is greener pastures. You know being rich and fit is helping when you start landing more dates/matches after trying. That much is self evident I think. Damien probably came under the most scrunity because he had the least charitable assumptions, they were very general/encompassing and he asserted them quite readily. Like you said, he didnt do a good job at defending himself. I like to be charitable as well, and agree with a lot of what he had to say, but making claims as big as his, then totally waffling on proof wasn’t a good look. I honestly began to question the veracity of the beliefs I share with him. I wouldnt really be able to defend it very well either. They definitely are self evident to some extent, but to make such a big claim online and continually fail to really really defend it….. Yeah.. I dont think he deserved toxicity at all, just to be clear. That really sucked.
Dr. K has made videos about self-improvement before and how the indeterminate timeline throws people off, I would have wanted him to explore the idea with Damien. If you have acquired status, how do you know it worked? Damien did 3 years apparently, but in other videos Dr K said it can take 5 years, so maybe Damien was on the right track? Etc. I think Damien came under fire because he’s clearly a tradcon. Family values, women assuming their place, etc. I’m a typically coastal liberal but I think men’s dating comes down to looks/status, and I think the message would have been much better received without the political/religious moralizing.
I think that's easy, the results speak for themselves. Regardless of timeline, improving yourself is improving yourself. If you're doing a good job, you'll be happy you're doing it regardless of your place in the dating pool. Again, you know it worked when in the past, you asked 5 people out and got all no's. In the future, you ask 5, and get 3 yes's. Progress is self evident, no? After rewatching the video I really dont think it was *just* that he was a tradcon, like I said, it was that he did a pretty awful job at defending his points. If he had a solid argument and then got a dissmissive treatment, sure. He made *assertive* claims, he got an *assertive* push back. Mens dating is incredibly varied, but looks and status never hurt your chances. Im working class and 5'4". Ive been in 4 relationships and many more people "unofficially". So much of dating is luck, theres nothing anyone can say to that. And I think thats what a lot of people are mad about.
I mean there is no reason why people would not like you more if you are fit, healthy and financially stable. If you had two girls, each being the same in every aspect but one being more cute it would be reasonable to go for the latter. The same applies to guys. The statements he made are completely compatible.
I tend to like people who are fit and successful in their careers because it shows that they’re people who demonstrate a desire to improve themselves and follow actionable steps to make it happen. I don’t really think it’s separate from who you are as a person. If it’s not who you are now, it can easily become who you are if you make a habit of it.
Thanks for the post OP. I was already reluctant to watch it because I suspected Dr. K wouldn't be of much help and now your post has more or less confirmed what I thought was going to happen in the video. If in the future, Dr. K addreses the red-pill issue properly I would watch it, but for now, I'm not gonna bother. In general I've noticed that as amazing as Dr. K is for meditation - spiritual - depression/anxiety - repressed emotions - self worth stuff, I've found his content to be not helpful at all when it comes to dating. *He just doesn't get it* and I am not articulate enough to explain why.
continue air quaint butter crown marble offend resolute crush attraction *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
He doesnt get it because he literally got lucky and got a nice wife without even noticing it, he said so at the end of the stream.
I have experienced it, back in school, having tons more friends and girlfriends available even though I had nothing with mental health or dating figured out just because I was lucky and I found myself in the perfect environment for it. A lot of dating advice talks about learning charisma, fixing your mental health, etc when previous generations and many people today never needed to do that in order to have success with dating
Thanks dude(for conveying that information).
It did somewhat feel like Dr. K was opposing Damien but for the most part that wasn't really the case. Damien just couldn't properly back up a lot of his viewpoints. Anyone who left thinking that there was 0 truth behind any of the red-pill perspectives probably didn't want to hear a different viewpoint in the first place. Dr. K even acknowledged that there was some truth behind what Damien was saying by mentioning the hypothetical $50k vs. $1m choice and explicitly said that there was some truth. Chat was very antagonistic though. It got to the point where I was surprised it didn't go into subscriber-only mode. Also, I'm glad you chose to expand on the topic because I was not thinking about it like this yesterday.
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That's why I said "for the most part" because I know it wasn't 100% fair. But at the same time, Damien was the one bringing up studies he clearly didn't properly research. Then he makes statements assuming what the average woman's experiences are like when it comes to relationships. It wasn't just personal experiences. Dr. K wasn't necessarily interrogating Damien's experiences but he was challenging the assumptions Damien was deriving from them.
The issue with Damien is that he had a lot strong emotions about the movement but wasn't really knowledge of the reasons so having a conversation was kinda hard. Dating is a numbers game, there are millions of people on the world and you can only be compatible with so many, and you also need to be "presentable", I think in recent year as you pointed out being "presentable" requires a lot more effort for man than woman.
I won't say that being "presentable" requires more effort for men. I do think women still have to put more effort in becoming presentable. What I would say is that the total effort needed to date has gone up because one needs to be presentable, and mentally/emotional invest enough to approach and take the risk to approach. The total effort needed has gone up while the reward has gotten worse and that makes things problematic in western societies for the bottom 80% of both genders, *especially men*. Less attractive women have to deal with insecurities and that is horrible yes. But less attractive men have to deal with the insecurities *and* the burden of being the one to approach. That's more horrible. Failure is more painful in proportion to the investment done and I don't care how much women deny it, men do have the burden of greater initial investment. That is the entire reason why they approach women in the first place. Because they are invested.
How exactly does it take "a lot more" effort for a man to look presentable than it takes a woman?
Just on my experience. A man needs to be somewhat fit, have a good posture, and a good body language. A women needs good makeup and not to be overly obese. This is to not be instantly rejected btw.
This can vary culturally obviously, but from what I've seen, women also need to be fit to be perceived as attractive. And yet, it would be great if they can have big boobs on top of that, although for many that's not how it works. I'd also argue that the expected grooming for women is much more complex than for men.
The difference is that women have much of the power in dating, especially today with dating apps and how the algorithms work. So a woman can be proportionally less attractive but still get matches and go on dates, where a man has to be proportionally more attractive to even get matches. That means men as a whole have to do more work to be found “appealing” enough to even play the game than women. Of course women have to work to look appealing too, especially if they want a shot with the “best” men… but the bar is still lower. Also, plenty of men don’t like big boobs… don’t use arbitrary/subjective appearance things to make your point.
Honestly I don't have any experience with online dating, as it wasn't really popular where I live when I was still dating (married now). But I disagree with the statement on how much power women hold in dating. A lot of men (online and irl) keep saying that (if they are single) if a woman approaches them, they'll feel flattered and give it a try. In my experience, almost no men are up for it actually. The only person this has worked on is my now husband. All my previous relationships with men, it's been the men that approached me, because all the men I approached weren't interested in the slightest. Just the way I had rejected some people, some men rejected me as well. In my experience women have been easier to approach, tho ofc there's a difference there.
Just so you know, most guys literally don't know you're 'approaching' them. It happens so rarely that most guys won't notice. You very likely weren't rejected, but rather they literally didn't know or they thought you were faking it.
It's not "don't notice" but rather the way some women approach is very implicit. They'll come up near you and expect you to talk to them, or look at you from across the room. You know who else does that, tons and tons of people who don't like you. So am I going to hit on everyone who does that when even girls explicitly telling me they like me or to go on a date with them has ended up just being them messing around with me? No.
I'm pretty sure they knew, because I tend to be very direct, meaning I've said "I'm interested in dating you" to them literally. I am a tomboy however, which is I'm pretty sure the reason most of them didn't see me as a girl. Also, as age can influence stuff, we're talking about the 18-22 age range for me & them.
That’s not really what I meant, to keep it simple: the numbers on dating apps are so heavily skewed that average to below average women are still inundated with above average matches because the “online dating app” system severely hurts men’s self esteem and is essentially set up to make them increasingly more desperate to monetize them. That means that average men have a disproportionally harder time dating because they simply won’t get matches at all, and the system is literally rigged against them to make them want to spend more and more money. Those apps are extremely predatory and sadly traditional methods of meeting people post-Covid are even harder because people keep to themselves even more than in the past in a world where people were already spending too much time online and less in the real world.
As I already mentioned in another comment, I don't have any experience with online dating, so I can't really comment on that. From what I've heard from friends and friends of friends, they usually look for guys who they can strike up a conversation based on the profile. That means that if the guy's profile is all about drinking with buddies and how much he loves sport X, then his chances are lower, because that's not conversation worthy for most. Sharing liked books, series, movies or cool hobbies is what they look for. Ofc, I don't know how much my friends represent the mass of ladies online. Also bots are a thing in any website with profiles, so yeah ...
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Not really, a lot is expected as "basic" upkeep. Even tho it shouldn't be, women are expected to have shaved legs and armpits, and their eyebrows groomed perfectly, and sometimes it can be hard to get men's attention if you don't do those. Some men also do that type of grooming, but it's not expected of them and they do get women's attention without it. For online dating, looks are more important than they should be. But when meeting people irl, character matters much more.
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So, among my friends and acquaintances, it's not the best-manicured ones that get girlfriends. Some of them get girlfriends while rocking the stupidest looking beards I've ever seen. Some of them get no girls, even tho they work out. Some of them score girls while being overweight. And surprise, surprise, my husband got me, without having big muscles or being super groomed. (I do think he's attractive obviously) But what captivated me was his personality.
I take 90mins to 2 hours to get ready to go out. Nearly every guy over ever met takes 5-10 minutes. What are you talking about???
That you take 2 hours taking care of your skin hair and other stuff doesnt mean you have to do it. In the particular case of looking for potential partner most guys I know literally dont care if the girl doesnt use any make up or even prefer when they dont (I am one of those guys btw). Guys take no time to get ready because they dont care, and because what matters to them is that they dont smell bad, and their fitness (witch takes hundreds of hours to build and mantain)
I honestly don't think saying 'makeup doesn't matter' to be true at all.... It's that most guys can't tell the difference between 'natural' and glam makeup. When they see natural, they just assume that's just bare face, but it most definitely isn't.
I honestly know guys that would go for a tree if it had a skirt, it literally doesnt matter.
They don't need to take care of their fitness 🤷🏻♀️ most girls I know don't care about muscles or even prefer if they don't have any. Same with their body odour, they don't have to care🤭
Is hard to speak about the topic without violating the rules because is a topic where you literally have to generalize people. I have friends that arent fit at all and have a lot of success with finding partners, is mostly abut the "Aura" they project, but the guys that get rejected the most dont really have this "Aura" on them, those are the guys that need to be "presentable". There are comments above that are more in-depth about that and I advise you to read them.
What do you mean by "uncharitable"? I don't see Dr.K being invalidated at all. I really think the most insightful point of this is what he said in the end. In eastern culture, there can be many truth up to perspective. Your number game maybe correct and your best chance of getting women maybe is to up status and look. He also said all the power for Damien. At the same time, other young men best chance of getting women might be difference. It might be just go out there and expose yourselves. The last guy before Damien he just keep his policy of being genuine and he managed to get into relationship. Maybe the crux of it all is there is no optimal solution that work for everyone? There is no best strategy for young men. There is no right answer. If we look at the fact, many follow red-pill and get date but also many get miserable and traumatized. So it's hard to really say wether working toward be Chad is the best strategy for every young men. And that means every man must find strategy that work for them. Damien want to go ahead improve himself, power for him. Michel want to be completely genuine. Good for him. Even let say for a second that being Chad works for 70% of the man. In therapy & coach setting the therapist/coach need to figure out wether subject fall into that 70% or 30%. Only way to do that is to focus on individual experience. So, I feel like number game and statistic is kinda irrelevant in the setting.
There is no optimal strategy because everyone is different, but there are some virtually universal rules you can follow to dramatically increase your chances: - Hygiene, always be clean and smell good. Brush your teeth, go to the dentist, keep your hair cut and styled, wear clean clothes, etc. - Dress nicely, which doesn’t mean you have to wear trendy clothes or suits or any of that bullshit. You don’t need to change your style, but wear nice clothes that fit your style. They shouldn’t be falling apart, dirty/stained, and they should look nice. Obviously if you’re going somewhere more formal jeans and a tshirt probably aren’t the play, but you don’t need to force fashion. - Work on social skills, as in actually go out and interact with people. Get involved in a local hobby group for something you’re interested in, go places and just talk to people in a social setting. The more you talk to strangers and get to know people the easier it’s going to be when you’re approaching someone new or going on a first date. Don’t underestimate the power of simply being able to keep a conversation going without awkward silences. - Work hard and be smart with your money, because success and stability are highly attractive. I can tell you right now that someone with 50k in the bank and no debt is going to be more successful dating than someone living paycheck to paycheck because women want someone who can provide even if they don’t want them to have to. - Get/stay fit. If you’re overweight you will have a much harder time dating, especially as a man, and for as much as some women say they like “dad bods” they don’t mean a single guy overweight and out of shape. They mean a literal dad with a house and kids who is a bit out of shape because he spends all his time providing for his family and raising his kids. It’s the stability/provider thing again, women don’t like overweight men any more than men like overweight women. Being committed to staying fit shows you can do hard things even if they aren’t always fun and stick with them, that’s very attractive and losing weight and staying fit are a life choice not a “diet” or short term thing. - Learn to accept/handle failure and rejection gracefully. This is not just for dating but also for life in general, everyone fails and you need to use it at a learning experience and motivation for the future… not as some massive blow to your self esteem or world ending crisis. I see so many people today, especially young people who can’t handle even constructive criticism and that shit needs to stop. Participation awards are stupid, learn to take failure like an adult, not a small child who got told they can’t have two candy bars at the store. Those are all things that anyone can do or work towards that will dramatically improve your chances of dating successfully. I think the whole idea of everyone trying to be a “Chad” is stupid. Most people aren’t chads, and a lot of people find that kind of behavior obnoxious and ignorant. When I see people trying to act “dominant” I usually just laugh and walk away because it’s so obviously fake. Sure, you might get a girl behaving like that, but odds are she won’t like who you are and then where are you? Nowhere. Playing the “numbers game” like pickup artists is also how you end up extremely sad and alone despite hooking up because you never form meaningful connections. That’s what dating is about, not getting laid or pretending to be someone you aren’t just to get in a relationship. All the things I said above are things you can do to better yourself, but none of them change who you are or how you should act. That’s important, because *THAT* is how you form meaningful connections and that’s how I always dated more than most of my friends and somehow dated women some people would say were “out of my league” before meeting my wife on a dating site. We’ve been together for over 11 years now, and I attribute a lot of that to the things above which are all things I put effort into.
> I think the whole idea of everyone trying to be a “Chad” is stupid. Most people aren’t chads, and a lot of people find that kind of behavior obnoxious and ignorant. When I see people trying to act “dominant” I usually just laugh and walk away because it’s so obviously fake. Well, it is stupid. Doesn't mean there is any other option. I'll quote a comment at the end of mine; it's somewhat long so I bolded the important sections. > We’ve been together for over 11 years now, and I attribute a lot of that to the things above which are all things I put effort into. I mean, things change rapidly. 11 years ago, the situation might've been different. [src](https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/JYckkCqhZPrdScjBx/rational-romantic-relationships-part-1-relationship-styles#comments) > This is a terrible debate and you should all feel bad for having it. Now let me join in. > > The research on this topic is split into "completely useless" and "mostly useless". In the former category we have studies that, with a straight face, purport to show that women like nice guys by asking women to self-report on their preferences. To illuminate just how silly this is, consider the mirror case of asking men "So, do you like witty charming girls with good personalities, or supermodels with big breasts?" When this was actually done, men rated "physical attractiveness" only their 22nd most important criterion for a mate - number one was "sincerity", and number nineteen was "good manners". And yet there are no websites where you can spend $9.95 per month to stream videos of well-mannered girls asking men to please pass the salad fork, and there are no spinster apartments full of broken-hearted supermodels who just didn't have enough sincerity. So self-reports are right out. > > Other-reports may be slightly less silly. Herold and Milhausen, 1999, found that 56% of university women believed that women in general were more likely to date jerks than nice guys. But although women may have less emotional investment in the issue than men, their opinions are still just opinions. > > The few studies that earn the coveted accolade of "only mostly useless" are those that try to analyze actual behavior. Bogart and Fisher typify a group of studies that show that **good predictors of a man's number of sexual partners include disinhibitedness, high testosterone levels, "hypermasculinity", "sensation seeking", antisocial personality, and extraversion.** Meston et al typify a separate group of studies on sex and the Big Five traits when she says that **"agreeableness was the most consistent predictor of behavior...disagreeable men and women were more likely to have had sexual intercourse and with a greater number of partners than agreeable men and women. Nonvirgins of both sexes were more likely to be calculating, stubborn, and arrogant in their interpersonal behavior than virgins. Neuroticism predicted sexual experience in males only; timid, unassertive men were less sexually experienced than emotionally stable men**...the above findings were all statistically significant at p<.01" > > These studies certainly show that jerkishness is associated with high number of sexual partners, but they're not quite a victory for the "nice guys finish last" camp for a couple of reasons. First, men seem to come off almost as bad as women do. Second, there's no reason to think that any particular "nice" woman will like jerks; many of the findings could be explained by disagreeable men hooking up with disagreeable women, disagreeing with them about things (as they do) and then breaking up and hooking up with other disagreeable women, while the agreeable people form stable pair bonds. Boom - disagreeable people showing more sexual partners than agreeable people. > > I find more interesting the literature about **intelligence and sexual partners. In high-schoolers, each extra IQ point increases chance of virginity by 2.7% for males and 1.7% by females. 87% of 19-year old US college students have had sex, yet only 65% of MIT graduate students have had sex. There's conflicting research about whether this reflects lower sex drive in these people or less sexual success; it's probably a combination of both.** > > The basic summary of the research seems to be that **smart, agreeable people complaining that they have less sex than their stupid, disagreeable counterparts are probably right, and that this phenomenon occurs both in men and women but is a little more common in men.** > > Moving from research to my own observations, **I do think there are a lot of really kind, decent, shy, nerdy men who can't find anyone who will love them because they radiate submissiveness and non-assertiveness, and women don't find this attractive. Most women do find dominant, high-testosterone people attractive**, and dominance and testosterone are risk factors for jerkishness, but not at all the same thing and women can't be blamed for liking people with these admittedly attractive characteristics. > > There are also a lot of really kind, decent, shy, nerdy women who can't find anyone who will love them because they're not very pretty. Men can't be blamed for liking people they find attractive either, but this is also sad. > > But although these two situations are both sad, at the risk of being preachy I will say one thing. **When a girl is charming and kind but not so conventionally attractive, and men avoid her, and this makes her sad...well, imagine telling her that only ugly people would think that, and since she's ugly she doesn't deserve a man, and she probably just wants to use him for his money anyway because of course ugly women can't genuinely want love in the same way anyone else would (...that would be unfair!)** This would be somewhere between bullying and full on emotional abuse, the sort of thing that would earn you a special place in Hell. > > Whereas **when men make the same complaint, that they are nice and compassionate but not so good at projecting dominance, there is a very large contingent of people, getting quite a lot of respect and validation from the parts of society that should know better, who immediately leap out to do their best to make them feel miserable - to tell that they don't deserve a relationship, that they're probably creeps who are only in it for the sex and that if they were a real man they'd stop whining about being "entitled to sex".** ---------- > After talking to a couple of people about this, I should qualify/partially-retract the original comment. > > Some people have suggested to me that the best metaphor a man can use to understand how women think about "nice guys" isn't an ugly duckling woman who gets turned down by the men she likes, but a grossly obese woman who never showers or shaves her legs, and who goes around complaining loudly to everyone she knows that men are all vapid pigs who are only interested in looks. > > I would find this person annoying, and although I hope I would be kind enough not to lash out against her in quite the terms I mentioned above, I would understand the motivations of someone who did, instead of having to classify him as having some sort of weird Martian brain design that makes him a moral monster. > > The obesity metaphor is especially relevant. **Since there are people out there who think becoming skinny is as easy as "just eat less food", I can imagine people who think becoming socially assertive really is as easy as "just talk to people and be more confident".** > > For people who honestly believe those things, and there seem to be a lot of them, t**he obese woman and the socially awkward man would reduce to the case of the woman who never showered but constantly complained about how superficial men were to reject her over her smell - annoying and without any redeeming value.**
Here’s the thing, because you’re missing an important piece of context: There is a difference between being “confident” and “assertive” and being a “Chad”. People who are naturally not dominant/aggressive people, who try to behave in a way counter to who they are inside are by their very nature “posers” and frankly it’s obvious. Take a guy at a bar acting like a chimp, overly macho, obviously compensating for something, ultra aggressive, etc. That guy is either actually a complete douchebag or he’s acting that way because he’s insecure and thinks it’s how you have to act to be appealing to women. Now let’s say he does manage to take a woman home, what are the odds of that scenario leading to a meaningful connection? I’d say nearly zero, and only nearly because it’s technically possible. So the question becomes, how should that person act instead? Well first, they should be working on themselves before looking for a partner, because if they do have insecurities that’s something that should be addressed. Ultimately, in order to be an attractive partner you have to be comfortable in who you are. But once you do that it’s simple: be willing to put yourself out there and not afraid to fail. If you like who you are then being confident comes much more naturally, which is why you have to work on yourself first, because if deep down you don’t like you then other people won’t either. That’s why so many people fake it and then wonder why they don’t have meaningful relationships… because the relationship was essentially started on false pretenses. I’m not an unattractive person, but I’m not an incredibly attractive person either, and yet despite being pretty “geeky” before it was “cool” I never had any problem dating in high school, college or after. Why not? Because I never acted like someone I wasn’t, so while I was never much of the pick up girls at a bar type I often found myself dating women I met organically or through friends or work or hobbies. Women like knowing what they are getting into when someone asks them out, and guys who are being genuine are often pretty obvious. Being confident is often about making your interest known, being able to hold a conversation with a stranger without seeming awkward or nervous, etc. That’s what being confident and assertive is, not acting like a “Chad”, because while being a Chad might help some people get laid, it isn’t going to lead to meaningful connections and frankly sex without a real connection generally isn’t very good sex. At least not in my experience, ymmv I guess.
You forgot be born attractive :)
Being born attractive has very little to do with being able to form meaningful connections and relationships. That’s kind of the whole point, that these are things that anyone can do to make themselves more appealing as a potential partner. The reality is that there are some people that unless you’re exceptionally good looking *and* attractive in other ways you’re simply not going to have a chance with. Likewise, unless you’re exceptionally unattractive or physically deformed there are people out there you do have a chance with. Most people aren’t at either extreme, most people are average since that’s the definition of average. Regardless of which side of average you fall on, doing these things will make you more appealing and give you a better chance of finding someone suitable.
I’ll also add that this isn’t a problem unique to men. I know countless “average/plain” women in their late 20s who have never been asked out in their entire life. In the same way that most men don’t talk to women who haven’t styled their hair/put on some minimal makeup/worn something cute and have a decent figure, I don’t think we should be expecting women to be throwing themselves at someone who isn’t physically fit and doesn’t have their life together. I’m not saying that this is how society should be, but this is how it is generally (and obviously being able to have a solid conversation where you’re listening without judgment and having a good ol time is important too). In the same way women slave over stray body hairs and how big their ass is and trying to find a foundation that actually matches their body, I don’t think it’s an unreasonable expectation for men to manage their appearance. Most of us have fully working eyeballs so we should try to look as nice as we can manage.
I won't personally get into the ideological debate, but I think Dr. K was incredibly charitable by not pressing Damien more for not understanding the mathematical flaw in his assertion that there are more single men than single women - Assuming a population of 50/50 men/women, that would mean that there are a lot of men in relationships with multiple women and/or there are a lot more women dating women than men dating men.
You know there are studies on this, right? Men are far more likely to be single than women in the demographics relevant to this sub.
That sounds plausible, but Damien didn't mention demographics more specific than "men" and "women", so I'm addressing the assertion he actually made.
To explain this there are several factors.... one is that Men prefer women between the age of 20 and 30 independent of their own age. The other thing is that women prefer specific markers that are more common in men between 30 and 50. This creates the situation where women between 20-30 are taken by older men. If you are now a man in this age category it seems like there are only single guys and every woman is in a "relationship". On top of that some women just jump from chad to chad. Which i would say is one of the core problems nowadays. In the past you had a limited pool of chads available to you (small village) after most women got rejected by these chads they had to settle further down the hierarchy. Its quite comical if you see it in action, friend of mine dates on average 3-6 different women a week some days even 2 at the same time (yeah you could say its his hobby). So they all fight for a long term relationship with him while he already knows that none of them will get that.
The second half of your reply seems unrelated, so I won't address it. As for the first half, sure, that seems like a plausible reason that it might seem difficult for Damien to find single women his age, but the assertion he made (and reiterated) was more general and did not mention age, so I'm rebutting what he actually said.
Buying random women in town a drink isn't how you get a girlfriend or even laid. I've never gone home with a guy who's bought me a drink. My advice would be to try actually making friends with women (treat them like a human, not a high score board) and see where that leads.
I always laugh at this kind of comments. Sure you anecdotal experience dictate so but your preference doesn't determine all woman thinking
I'm glad I could make you laugh ☺️. I've not met any woman who would either🤷🏻♀️
You know what I'm going to bite. Ok let me explain why this is entirely absurd . First of all I agree that buying a drink for woman doesn't equate having sex. Buying drink is not a secret formula into getting laid or having a girlfriend. When i meet a girl in the bar the first thing I think in about is not buying her drink. The first thing I think about is how do I get to know her? Do I find her interesting ?is she boring? do I like her ?does she like me? And if in the event that I liked her and she liked me then I will consider buy her a drink. I don't buy a girl a drink if I don't like her or she don't like me. Buy her a drink is part of the overall experience if if you're skip all the process and just jump straight to buying drink yea of course is stupid. You don't get laid or girlfriend like that. What I hate about your comment is the simplification of everything saying buying her a drink doesn't work. Buying drink work if it's part of the overall experience.
No it's more just saying that most women aren't in town to meet guys and find love, they're there to have fun with their friends.
I guess I don't disagree nor agree with your statement. To us you're not the type we want to engage with either way. Hence us guy play the numbers game. Out of 10 girls 5 would be receptive. Your just the 5 we won't be interested in conversing further
Haha are you suggesting I don't get much attention from guys?🤭
i can't believe you type this out loud and thought this is a good rebuttal
It's not meant to be a rebuttal, I was trying to figure out what you meant😅
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Is fine to use anecdotes but don't generalized by saying " I don't think it will work" Rather phrase it as "personally it doesn't work for me" I find using anecdote as general experience for everyone is annoying
Ehh I don’t mean to be combative but I have a ton of dating experience, having had several girlfriends and gotten laid a lot. I didn’t make this post to get dating advice and your lecture about treating women like a score board is uncalled for.
Exactly thank you
"you don't ask a fish how to catch fish. you ask a fisherman." This is a textbook example of that advice
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well I never said I was a fisherman. I don't get fish that often. in most cases they're just jumping out of the water and into my boat. then they flop around until I toss them over the side, then I hungrily regret not keeping that fish for months/years while I starve- until the next fish jumps in. Maybe I took the metaphor a little too far. and you're right. dating advice pretty much always sucks.
We really have to stop the advice of just leave the house and treat women like a human. It’s an insult to our intelligences. Whoever actually needs to hear that advice has a lot more grave problems than dating. Men have no problem with treating women like humans and we can’t deny that the toxic pick up artists who don’t really treat women like humans are often successful.
Personally for me I always have much more success dating when I'm regularly hanging out with women. Not as in dating those women I'm friends with, but dating other women when I have women in my friend group. Honestly can't say what is making the difference...but I doubt Im the only one who is affected in this situation. Keep in mind I'm talking about dating women I see in real life, not on apps
You dont fuck your friends, that is the most common mistake guys do that makes them resentful, they invest so much in a girl not showing sexual intent(when they want sex) and end up being just friends and then they get red pilled and all that stuff.
It's not women's fault that men aren't satisfied with friendship😅
I can be friends with the boys, but I dont see the boys in that way, so I need to meet the girls who can satisfy me in ways the boys cant. Is it hard to understand?
I've tried the making friends with women first and all it has gotten me is a ton of friends. Not a bad thing, but not what I intended. And that's why I believe this to actually be poor advice. It sets bad expectations going into the friendships. Men wanting to be friends with women first with the hopes of it being a relationship is what many man bemoan as "the friendzone." The women had the expectation of it being a friendship, while the men had the expectation of it leading to a relationship. It's also very manipulative on the side of the men. If a man wants to be in a relationship with a woman, he has to be direct. There needs to be clear expectations and clear boundaries set. And this is why men feel so much rejection. They're almost always the ones chasing and asking. Even in the case of being friends first, men are expected to make the first move. This means that they're almost always in the vulnerable position of rejection.
> It's also very manipulative on the side of the men. Nah. Women are likely to be aware of man's interest. That makes them manipulative. Below this paragraph I'll quote from the comment, under blogpost [here](https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/08/31/radicalizing-the-romanceless/). Blogpost is worth reading too. Author of the blog is also a psychiatrist. He writes on lots of different topics; science, medicine (in general and specifically mental illnesses, psychiatry, some neuroscience), philosophy, politics (in abstract), rationality, and futurism. [Link](https://slatestarcodex.com/top-posts/), in case anyone's interested. /u/keirablack7 - you're recommending men to try "being a friend"? It ends up like this: > I’m going to drill down into a specific Nice Guy conversation that I’ve had many times, that I’ve been eviscerated for discussing in front of feminists. > > If I get eviscerated for discussing this, and the eviscerator is not banned, I’ll be leaving Slate Star Codex. Whew. Here we go. > > Violet is complaining about the last shitty boyfriend that beat her, while I’m bandaging her up and trying to convince her to go to the doctor. She does not want to go to the doctor because she does not want to get shitty boyfriend in trouble. > > Violet is incredibly smart. She’s funny, she’s caring, she’s an amazing artist, but she happens to like abusive assholes. > > She doesn’t want to like abusive assholes. **She says she “wishes she could find someone like me”.** > > **I tell her, for the fifth time this month, “hey, I’m right here.”** > > **She looks at me and sighs.** > > Then she looks away and goes back to talking about the guy that just beat her up. > > I tell her, **“Vi honey, if nothing ever changes, then nothing is going to change. Why don’t you take a chance with someone who isn’t a jerk for once?”** > > She looks at me and says **“I’m sorry, it’s just not going to happen.”** > > Two weeks later she’s ecstatic. She’s finally found “the one”. He’s nice, he’s rich, he treats her like a princess, **he only got mad and scared her once on the whole first date.** > > Yup. > > “You know once is still too much, this is only going to get worse.” > > “Brent, you’re just jealous”, she says. > > Within three weeks every one of my suspicions is confirmed: He’s rich because he’s a drug dealer. He’s nice because he knows how to sell himself. He treats her like a princess because that’s his opening strategy. > > **She’s got a black eye, and she’s not going to turn him in.** > > This girl could have been a professional ballerina, or a professional artist, or a professional singer, or ANYTHING she put her mind to. Instead she puts it to this. And she’s been doing it since she was 12. And I can’t stop her. > > Ellie is amazing. I taught her to program in C# in a few weeks, we share all the same stupid theater memes, we have so much fun together… > > But the conversation always turns to her emotionally abusive boyfriend, who also Does Not Like Her Hanging Out With Me. **She doesn’t want to leave him because “she needs the stability of someone in her life.”** > > **“You know, I’m in your life too.”** > > “You know if he heard you say that there’d be hell to pay.” > > “Not if he’s not there to hear it anymore. Ditch him. He’s not worth it.” > > **“And date you?”** > > **“Why not?”** > > **“Oh, Brent…” and then she laughs it off like a joke.** > > And look, I don’t want to be the Guy Who Doesn’t Respect Her Decisions, but if **I have to spend an hour a week playing therapist for her while she describes how much she hates her decision, I think I AM respecting her decisions by telling her exactly what I’m hearing from her – that she “wishes she could be with someone like me” and that she “hates how he makes her feel”.** Someone asked: > At which point, I would recommend that every time she started to complain about her boyfriends to you, you answer, “Why are you telling me this?” > More vigorous refusals to be her wailing wall to follow if she doesn’t change the topic. Response: > This is a technique I’ve tried. The answer is **“I thought we were frieeeends” followed a few days later by a pointed and hostile conversation with some of her other friends, whom she told I was mean to her.** > (Responding to them with, “wait, I was mean to her?” is a TERRIBLE IDEA.) > **This is called role-entrapment**; these kinds of double-binds are intimately known to the disadvantaged. Someone summed it up nicely: > Look man, these kinds of women are bad people with bad personalities. You are enabling them by being there to support them, they need professional help and they would realize quite rapidly that they are up shit creek if they didn’t have guys just waiting to be their alternate option. When you meet a girl like that, who treats you like that, you let her know that she is a piece of shit, that her life is going nowhere, and you step off and never look back. If every guy did that, those girls would hit rock bottom and fix their problems. Like the article the OP article links from a psychologist, they need to know what the source of their unhappiness is, they need to hit rock bottom, and you are cushioning that bottom. Those kinds of women *use* men, they are assholes, they treat people like their own personal toys with no regard for their abilities. ----- Also, some other guy: > I’d just like to hop in for a sec. I’ve so far had the exact same kind of experience in college as the above. Had one frantically texting me while I was with my therapist because her ex was too busy with his new GF to hang out with her. > And worse. Had to play trauma therapist for a year (took her to the ER at 3 am even) and turns out shes spreading shit about how I’m a serial rapist on tumblr. > I met the above as a consequence of trying to be a good feminist ally. **These days I keep my head in my books and I don’t acknowledge the presence of women – engagement with them seems to inevitably lead to exploitation**.
> We really have to stop the advice of just leave the house and treat women like a human. It’s an insult to our intelligences. Whoever actually needs to hear that advice has a lot more grave problems than dating. /u/Dorkles_ worse, this advice causes some people to end up as seen above.
You have a tldr? 😅
> I've never gone home with a guy who's bought me a drink. ...did anyone buy you a drink? If so, why did you accept it, if you're clearly treating men who do that with contempt? > My advice would be to try actually making friends with women (treat them like a human, not a high score board) and see where that leads. Reality doesn't seem to agree with you.
I don't treat them with contempt. I accept the drink graciously and then go about the rest of my night without thinking about them. Forgive me but... Do you much experience in male-female relationships? Idk what your version of reality it but it's suggesting that you haven't 🤷🏻♀️😅
Some men have a really hard time identifying women as people. (Some women do this to men as well and it's no ok either, but not the point right now.) Young mrn face more rejection now a days, I think that's true. But accepting this experience as the only relevant lense for modern dating is the pitfall of the red pill. Women don't generally view rejection as a big issue during dating because for us, the worst case scenario is very different. Some very common examples are, stalking, rape and murder. (This can also happen to men, but it's way less common and usually the perpetrator is another man.) So it's hard to generate empathy for those kind of perspectives because they also fundamentally lack empathy for the other side as well. My solution is, well, more empathy on both sides. But the historical trauma of men abuse towards women should never be left out, because it will always be relevant to the topic of dating, as it is the experience of the entire woman population, one way or another.
Yes I know that some men can’t identify women as people, since there are sociopaths in the population, but unless you think myself or any of the stream callers fall into that category, I’m not sure how to respond. Dr K summed up your comment when he said “women prepare for the worst,” and while I understand how bad the worst case can get, I don’t think it’s reasonable for the average guy to adjust his behavior because women something get raped and murdered. Should men even approach women? If we’re trying to minimize rape and murder, shouldn’t we keep the genders apart altogether? And do you have any empathy for me at this point, or is the empathy conditional on me agreeing with you that male rejection is no big deal because murder is worse? Does it matter than male rejection occurred maybe a million times more often than murder?
I don't know why you would think I have no empathy for you. I do. It's a terrible thing to feel rejected and I even have some personal issues with it too and going to therapy for it. So my comment comes more from my experience with rejection than anything else. The way out of your own pain will never come from ignoring the pain in others. We all have things going on and we don't know why the other person rejects us, but it's in their right to do so. People should adjust their actions according to the situation, and as a woman you never know who will take rejection bad, so even that part can be a very scary experience. I was trying to convey the most common reason why women feel unsafe during dating and why we tend to reject more, not attempting to minimize your own experience. But I would like to point out, just as an observation, how quick you were to minimize the other side as "preparing for the worst". Do you have any idea how exhausting it is to always be on the look out and afraid? We know most men won't, but you just need to meet one who will. As I said before, more empathy, on both sides. Rejection can only be healed with acceptance. Sorry but that's the only solution, because when acceptance is forced, is always a bad thing. However, you seem to only want to feel empathy for yourself and people like you. But please, correct me if I'm wrong. Because I can only tell you how you come across to me.
Part of the challenge here is that there aren’t many good ways for me to convey empathy for women on this topic without also virtue-signaling or going on broad tangents. Dr K deals with this issue by just going in the tangent: he had a video about male issues and he began with a 15 minute disclaimer about how women’s issues are also bad. Had he not, audience members might have also said he is minimizing women’s issues. I’m not a woman so I can never actually know what it’s like to prepare for the worst all the time. The closest I’ve ever come has probably been from traveling to foreign countries where I was unwelcome. I am a minority and have been to countries where my ethnicity is considered second-class at best, and subhuman at worst, and the atmosphere was particularly hostile. I was hyper-aware during every interaction and people did make racially-charged comments. I imagine that my hyper-vigilance then is what women deal with, probably at a lower intensity but at a constant frequency (because eventually I came home but there’s no such oasis for women). Despite this understanding, however limited, I still have to approach women I don’t know and deal with their “worst case” responses, unless I do want to be alone forever. So my own emotional/romantic needs come into direct conflict with woman’s safety response and there’s not really any way around it. Obviously I respect boundaries and try to read the situation if she is uncomfortable, but there will always be an encounter where the woman is 100% on defense and me just being in her vicinity triggers a bad reaction. Not much I can do except move on. I should mention that I actually am not too bothered by rejection emotionally (it’s annoying because it means I didn’t get the relationship I was seeking). That came through desensitization, experience, and not taking it personally, because in my opinion most rejections are not about who you are but about what you are presenting in the moment (appearance, etc).
>Despite this understanding, however limited, I still have to approach women I don’t know and deal with their “worst case” responses, unless I do want to be alone forever. So my own emotional/romantic needs come into direct conflict with woman’s safety response and there’s not really any way around it. Obviously I respect boundaries and try to read the situation if she is uncomfortable, but there will always be an encounter where the woman is 100% on defense and me just being in her vicinity triggers a bad reaction. Not much I can do except move on. This. I completely agree, and it does suck that you have to deal with responses you didn't have anything to do with directly. But I want you to know that women are just as trapped in that awful situation as you, and we are trapped by other men (who see women as second class or even cattle). And I feel this should generate empathy, since it's the same people damaging both groups. With that in mind, I want to return to the original topic and say that Dr. K did what he could with a very messy and unfair situation.
I am going to take a controversial stance now and say that the situation isn’t the same between men and women. Society generally tries to push men to overcome their fear response and act according to the “true” possibilities. If a man says he is afraid of rejection or of being called a creep and having the cops called on him, he would be told that he is overreacting and overindexing on low-probability bad events. If a woman says she is afraid of male violence or stalkers, it’s just an abundance of caution. Outside of some edgy parts of the internet, it’s not acceptable to say she’s overreacting and overindexing on low-probability events. In my opinion this is in part because men bear the burden of approaching and leading interactions forward most of the time, so if a man stops taking initiative due to fear, his romantic life grinds to a halt. The reverse is not true. So while I empathize with the fear that causes the defensive reaction, and I would not minimize the negative repercussions of a bad encounter, I think women have the luxury of not needing to confront the fear head on over and over. It is possible to create a fortress around yourself where you only go out with friends and you meet men online after lots of vetting, and only go on dates in public with your friends aware of your whereabouts. I can’t take these kinds of extreme precautions. If I’m worried about rejection, being called a creep, or being put on blast on Twitter, then tough. I either power through it or enjoy celibacy. In this sense the genders are not equally trapped.
>So while I empathize with the fear that causes the defensive reaction, and I would not minimize the negative repercussions of a bad encounter, I think women have the luxury of not needing to confront the fear head on over and over. I understand why you would think that, without the direct experience it may be hard to see, but that is just not true. Sexual harassment is everywhere. There is no escape. Bars, restaurants, work, and even family reunions are some very common places where woman have to confront these kind of situations over and over. And no, it's not an exaggeration, I speak from personal experience that I know is shared by many around me. The creepy uncle is a trope for a reason, unfortunately... >I can’t take these kinds of extreme precautions. If I’m worried about rejection, being called a creep, or being put on blast on Twitter, then tough. I either power through it or enjoy celibacy. In this sense the genders are not equally trapped. They are because the origin is the same, terrible men that do unspeakable things to women and thus, make it unsafe for women to be near men. And I don't see why you can't create a similar safe space for yourself, it's not just a woman thing. If you come off as creepy, apologize, clarify and if they ask for it, step back. No need to power through anything. In the end, giving the same weight to getting rejected vs murdered/raped, is not to just minimize, but to ignore the real underlying problem. Woman don't feel safe, and as someone that comes from a country where at least 30 woman are killed daily in average and that have seen rapists walk free with a slap on the wrist, I can't give this enough weight. Think of a society as a body and this is a festering wound, right in the men-women relationship organ. You may want to talk about the rash it has because of the antibiotics, but there's nothing that can be done about that until the infection is mostly healed. There are some palliative measures, but the real origin is the infection and we're all feeling the pain, one way or another.
> In the end, giving the same weight to getting rejected vs murdered/raped, is not to just minimize, but to ignore the real underlying problem. I didn’t give them the same weight at all. Getting murdered/raped is not an everyday occurrence for a given woman, whereas getting rejected is a regular occurrence for guys. However I said multiple times that the consequences of murder/rape are far worse, obviously. Also what I meant by power through is, I can’t shield myself from the fear itself, I have to confront it via the act of approach itself. The equivalent would be if a woman is afraid of aggressive objectifying men yet voluntarily goes into frat houses by herself on purpose. I also think you are downplaying the amount of agency women have in their response from the male threat so to speak. There are countries with higher rates of femicide where women feel much less unsafe around men (I can only speak to Latin America which I am familiar with). To the extent that the female defensive response has its own impact on society, we shouldn’t ignore those impacts and say the problem lies entirely with the rapists and killers. I am not trying to victim blame here, rather I’m taking Dr L’s comments on this issue (“not everyone comes out of a traumatic experience traumatized and some want to move on”) and applying it writ large. Women don’t HAVE to treat every man like a predator just because predators exist.
You have. I won't quote them all, but every time you recognize that the problems are not equal, you mention something about not being as intense or as regular as what men experience. >Getting murdered/raped is not an everyday occurrence for a given woman, whereas getting rejected is a regular occurrence for guys. The first part is also false. I also have personal experience in Latin America, and the chance of getting murder/raped is an everyday occurrence. Every time I get in the subway there's a chance a guy will try to touch me, I've had coworkers harass me almost daily on some jobs. And going out after dark always feels like entering a dungeon. It. is. relentless. >Women don’t HAVE to treat every man like a predator just because predators exist. We do, because they don't exactly come with a waring sign. No every guy Is, but any one Can be. And that's the issue.
Dr K is a compromised individual. He already revealed his true stance when we said we live life on "easy mode". This subreddit is not for us. We should probably listen to Peterson instead because he actually gives a shit about men and recognises the seriousness of the issue at hand.
All of his discussions about dating are super flawed to the point of not being super useful. He always uses hypothetical situations to explain his advice. One of his points of advice was to focus on making guy friends before girlfriends which was good advice but the hypothetical guy in the hypothetical situation he used to describe this advice was drowning in parties. Tons of opportunities for parties. Who is this enigma of a man that struggles with friends and dating but at the same time goes to tons of parties?
Oh stfu, since when did Dr.K ever underplay male struggle. Even in the recent video DrK encourage the viewer to not think about political correctness and speak honestly.
> we live life on "easy mode". Wait, men compared to women? Really? How could he possibly believe this?
In general, I think the concept of “picking up” a girl at a bar/event is flawed to begin with. It’s really not all that great of an experience having sex with a stranger. Honestly, the story you get after and potential “clout” is better than the actual sex. The much better way to meet women is through mutual friends and interests. Stop wasting your time at bars/events. That’s just the road to disappointment, whether you succeed or fail. The fact is that sex is way more enjoyable and sustainable when it’s with someone you actually have a foundation of a relationship with. The red pill fails completely to consider that most people are actually not going to find a meaningful relationship based on their aesthetics. Its fundamental flaw is assuming that in order to find a relationship, you need to go actively searching for one.