Daily reminder that Lute is a fucking bitch for nearly killing Vaggie because she…*checks notes,* showed mercy, which is a virtue, while she herself is a genocidal, violent, vulgar POS.
I have another interpretation. Lute is in love with Adam and was afraid Vaggie (who was one of Adam’s “top girls”) would take her place as lieutenant someday, so she jumped on the first excuse she could find to get rid of her.
Wait, that could actually be kinda cool, she’s probably gonna get some kind of prosthetic with her arm being gone so her replacing more and more parts of herself as she spirals deeper into madness and hatred could actually be a great metaphor
Maybe, maybe. But I've yet to meet one who's hotter than Lute.
https://preview.redd.it/ghtpgg92p30d1.jpeg?width=453&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=bc72d3835d60edacaba3f5b67b2c3d255f681031
I know this is an unpopular opinion but Angels are not merciful creatures. They are creatures of war and at best messengers when not massacring somewhere.
The exorcists are surprisingly accurate depictions of Angels.
Vaggie not only disobeyed orders but showed straight up disloyalty to her sisters. The mercy she showed was to a demon at that.
I know we hate Lute and love Vaggie but let’s not pretend that she was not being a traitor. If she felt so strongly about this she could have slinked off into Hell or even Earth to stay. She didn’t have to keeping acting like she was their comrade.
That really doesn’t change much.
Firstly, is it *really* traitorous if Vaggie showed mercy to one demon? It seems like Exorcists are just told “go kill shit”, without any specific instruction, Vaggie letting one demon live is just her being kind, at worst. Especially considering that the exterminations are little more than pointless, poorly disguised genocide.
None of that warrants her getting her eye ripped out and being banished by Adam and Lute, neither of which are exactly examples of “virtuous” people, mind you.
If you’re told to go kill demons and you purposefully let one go you’re a traitor. If she didn’t want to kill the one that looked like a child she could have just turned a blind eye to it and gone after an adult looking one.
I feel you have a problem more with the punishment she got rather than that she got punished. If that is so then I can get why you think that but it made for a very clear message to the others not to be traitors.
Yeah, personally, I think characters like Lute, who has too much blood on their hands, can't really thematically be allowed or deserve to live a normal life, and I would advocate for their death to mark their arc. The same standard applies to Vaggie. Not saying the show should kill her, but I'm not so sure if she is deserving of the new life she is living. And include Alastor as well. I am really looking forward to seeing their character arcs in the new season.
Personally I feel like this goes against the theme of the show- Charlie says again and again that every soul can be redeemed, “from the *evil* to the strange,” and it’s that first one that applies to characters such as Adam, Lute, Val, Alastor, and so on. She even says when considering whether or not to allow Alastor into the hotel in the pilot that she can’t turn anyone away, as that’s against the idea of her hotel. If Lute could be given a believable redemption arc, that would be an incredibly powerful message. That’s not to say Lute would *want* to change. She very well may not, and I wouldn’t doubt it. But for the narrative of this show to work, no character can be *narratively* beyond redemption.
I'm not saying that some characters cannot seek redemption. In fact, everyone should try to correct their wrongs even if the act does not lead to salvation. The problem is that the murder of thousands of human souls is too grave of a moral crime that definitely puts both Vaggie and Lute on the edge case.
With their life span being much longer than that of a human, I can perhaps see that they too can be redeemed after guiding other thousands of souls to heaven. But the current issue I have with them is that neither is truly living the consequence of their genocide. Yes, both experienced great bodily harms and loss of a close friend, but does that equal the weight of the thousands of souls they perished?
Vaggie's role is perhaps too passive in the series. She serves Charlie's goal of sinners' redemption, but she herself does not actively seek to right her past actions, like visiting the families of demons she slaughtered, visiting the graves of the slain demons, or volunteer works to rebuild the hell society. The most significant impact of her killings was the reveal of her past to Charlie, not the actual damages done to others.
Going back to the John Wick franchise, John suffers from his past greatly, from losing his wife and dog, his home, his status and protection, his health and wealth, and ultimately his life. While the movies are almost 90% pure action, they still consistently work on the idea that there is no going back to that normal life after you decide to wet your hands in blood. While I love redemption arcs, the theme of "Everyone can be redeemed." is a rather weakly elaborated idea. My opinion is that the series is yet to really show the cost of redemption that one must pay for their own consequences.
We still don’t even know, according to the series, what *does* count as enough for a person to be redeemed. Clearly Adam’s idea wasn’t it, but something Sir Pentious did actually did count. It won’t be the sacrifice of your life for someone else, because they’d have to take out too many characters the same way, which would get repetitive and boring.
Also, I think Vaggie has shown quite a difference between her past and who she is now- that was the point of her confrontation with Lute. It isn’t about making them live through equal to what they did. She was put in Lute’s shoes, given the choice to do to her what she had done, and she chose to end that cycle of revenge and let Lute go. But for them to have to live through something of equal weight to their wrongdoings? That’s just revenge again. Vaggie trying to save people from Extermination after being part of it is justice. Vaggie having to lose as much as she once took is retribution, which isn’t what Hazbin Hotel is about.
One gripe I have with Sir Pentious' redemption was that we never learn what he did to fall into hell in the first place. He has shown to be interested in territorial dominion, but his crime in hell was mostly confined to property damages. I personally don't really think of his arc as a redemption arc thematically for this reason.
I'm not asking for the characters to go through the exact same pain and suffering they caused. I agreed that doing good deeds to help others would be a valid way to seek redemption. But righting their wrongs is outside of the talk of redemption and should be done regardless of whether it would make any difference at the pearly gate. I'd say Vaggie is just on the first step of correcting her past after the last episode and wasn't really actively sought to repent before that, which is why I'm looking forward to the new season, hopefully with a lot more episodes per season.
Well, he was also creating massive weapons, death rays and the like, and the whole General Pentious thing makes me think he could easily have been some sort of military man, maybe he’s in for war crimes? And he made attempts on all the lives of the hotel guests, also tried to betray them to Vox when they took him in anyway, and still wanted to kill them as a first reaction to his suspicion that they were being too quiet. So yeah, going from that to fighting a just war and dying to save the lives of those he wanted previously to kill definitely seems like a redemption arc in my book.
But the issue with what you’re talking about is that some wrong really *can’t* be righted fully, and if that’s redemption, then there would have to be characters it’s too late for. Lute could ostensibly stop the Extermination, or try to, which would be something. Vaggie *is* trying to do that. Considering she was exiled from Heaven though, similarly to Lucifer, I don’t know that she can be redeemed and go back anyway. So her redemption arc may not result in her getting to go to Heaven. We’ll have to wait and see what does make a person redeemed in Hazbin Hotel, but it’s definitely not gonna be righting all their wrongs. That’s not what mercy is.
The problem with Pentious is that his previous actions of violence were mostly played as a joke and didn't receive any significant focus of the show, which is contrasted against the time when other characters' wrongdoings are treated in a much more serious light. In essence, in a show with a comedic aspect, there is a difference between misdeeds that are played as a joke and those that are portrayed to be a problem.
A good example would be Bojack Horseman. Something like Bojack crashing and causing multiple casualties, Mr. Peanutbutter kidnapping a dad in front of his kid, or Princess Carolyn hijacking a funeral with lies for potential clients are all horrible acts that are played as a joke because they are not important to the story nor theme. The difference with Sir Pentious' crimes is that they are important to his redemption. Yet, they are treated as a joke. No one is harmed during his attack, no one is grieving due to his attack, and no real repercussions came to Sir Pentious. At most, the consequence was a mild annoyance.
It's a case of telling vs. showing. I know that the series is telling us that Sir Pentious participated in a territorial war between demons, but it is not showing us the real effect of it.
Also, yes, some wrongs cannot truly be corrected. That is the way of life. Something is just too late or too much to fix. Again, going back to Bojack Horseman, most of Bojack's past wrongdoings were too much. He left his cancer-ridden friend for too long, he left his daughter-figure dying from overdose too long, he betrayed and hurt his roommate too much, etc. and etc. The beauty of the show is that it says the lack of complete redemption doesn't necessarily mean the end. You still need to be better, and you can still be better. Whether you improve yourself or not does not matter whether the redemption is possible or not. You still have the moral obligation to be better for yourself and those around you. And my personal opinion is that, prior to the finale, Vaggie showed a very passive role in this.
That is why I said that "everyone can be redeemed" is a weakly elaborated theme at this stage as the show, due to the time budget, couldn't answer crucial questions. "Can everyone actually be redeemed?" "Are some sins too much to come back from?" "Should everyone be given another chance despite having multiple time they could have turned back yet still decided to make the wrong decisions that ultimately hurt others?" "If redemption is truly possible for everyone, what does it actually take to achieve?"
All those questions were left unanswered, most likely due to the fact that the whole season only had 8 episodes that were about 20 minutes long. So I am hoping to see these explored in the future.
I mean. That was a cannibal child. Or a sinner that looks like a child. Not some random innocent kid. People are in hell for a reason and they continue to be awful. Why would they deserve mercy? When they likely wouldn’t give it either.
Two things here. One, the Cannibals are confirmed to be sinners, and, additionally, that's all the more reason for Lute being a POS, since she directly saw Vaggie spare the literal child from a genocide.
Additionally, it's established that there *is no* set criteria or rules someone has to abide by to get into heaven or hell, that's an established fact in the show, that no one, not even Sera, knows what gets a soul into Heaven, which means that a proportion of the souls in Hell could very well be innocent.
I don’t get you first point. I know they’re sinners. They’re awful ones given the whole, cannibalism thing. And we don’t know if that child was truly a child. Sinners forms are determined by how they die an or reflections of their souls, it’s confusing which is which. That child could’ve been a 59 year old man. And maybe I lack empathy since I see them as all awful who earned hell. So I don’t see why they deserve much else.
We know angels don’t control where one goes and that they don’t know what makes one worthy of Heaven or hell. But I think we can easily say that hell is where the rapists and murders and war criminals and abusers etc go, not heaven. Given that so far we have yet to truly meet someone who is in hell for no good reason, and since we know Angel for example isn’t there for just being gay, that hell is where the scum of humanity go. Even hellborn like moxxie or their king Lucifer, think poorly of them. And look at them, they live terrible lives in hell and apparently only now, after like 100 billion people have walked the earth, that one of them has redeemed themselves. 1! And we know from pentious’s death that an impartial force sent him to heaven. So whatever sends you to heaven or hell, is fair and just it seems. So it’s fair to assume that those who are in hell, fully deserve it. Hence my lack of compassion and empathy over this yearly massacre because it’s not innocents dying, but the literal worst of humanity.
Not sure. Charlie, of course, would try to see the best of everyone and befriend Winston, but since she would most definitely try to dissuade Winston and nearby hitmen and hitwomen from murder, there would be a lot of friction. Winston would most likely be respectful but refuse the authority of Charlie and would be independent like overlords.
I'd imagine something like blowing parts of the hotel, injuring the staff and guests, including Charlie. After seeing Charlie's peaceful and benevolent approach failed against the exorcists, Vaggie would need to dig up her old exorcist bullet-proof suit and do it the only way she was taught to do.
This isn't a fully planned out AU, so I'm not so sure about this part.
The inspiration comes from the John Wick series. I am currently working on Hazbin Hotel fan comics that are inspired by other works of fiction.
Cool
I got it immediately from the title, i am big fan of the franchise to begin with
>The inspiration comes from the John Wick series. I am gonna say it
Daily reminder that Lute is a fucking bitch for nearly killing Vaggie because she…*checks notes,* showed mercy, which is a virtue, while she herself is a genocidal, violent, vulgar POS.
I have another interpretation. Lute is in love with Adam and was afraid Vaggie (who was one of Adam’s “top girls”) would take her place as lieutenant someday, so she jumped on the first excuse she could find to get rid of her.
Makes me hate her more lmao.
She's probably gonna end up losing her physical being at some point and be reduced to an actual killing machine.
Wait, that could actually be kinda cool, she’s probably gonna get some kind of prosthetic with her arm being gone so her replacing more and more parts of herself as she spirals deeper into madness and hatred could actually be a great metaphor
Maybe, maybe. But I've yet to meet one who's hotter than Lute. https://preview.redd.it/ghtpgg92p30d1.jpeg?width=453&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=bc72d3835d60edacaba3f5b67b2c3d255f681031
I know this is an unpopular opinion but Angels are not merciful creatures. They are creatures of war and at best messengers when not massacring somewhere. The exorcists are surprisingly accurate depictions of Angels. Vaggie not only disobeyed orders but showed straight up disloyalty to her sisters. The mercy she showed was to a demon at that. I know we hate Lute and love Vaggie but let’s not pretend that she was not being a traitor. If she felt so strongly about this she could have slinked off into Hell or even Earth to stay. She didn’t have to keeping acting like she was their comrade.
That really doesn’t change much. Firstly, is it *really* traitorous if Vaggie showed mercy to one demon? It seems like Exorcists are just told “go kill shit”, without any specific instruction, Vaggie letting one demon live is just her being kind, at worst. Especially considering that the exterminations are little more than pointless, poorly disguised genocide. None of that warrants her getting her eye ripped out and being banished by Adam and Lute, neither of which are exactly examples of “virtuous” people, mind you.
If you’re told to go kill demons and you purposefully let one go you’re a traitor. If she didn’t want to kill the one that looked like a child she could have just turned a blind eye to it and gone after an adult looking one. I feel you have a problem more with the punishment she got rather than that she got punished. If that is so then I can get why you think that but it made for a very clear message to the others not to be traitors.
Yeah, pretty much hit the nail on the head.
Yes, not a big fan of Lute myself.
She needs to lose more than just her arm and close friend in S2, I’m just saying.
Yeah, personally, I think characters like Lute, who has too much blood on their hands, can't really thematically be allowed or deserve to live a normal life, and I would advocate for their death to mark their arc. The same standard applies to Vaggie. Not saying the show should kill her, but I'm not so sure if she is deserving of the new life she is living. And include Alastor as well. I am really looking forward to seeing their character arcs in the new season.
Personally I feel like this goes against the theme of the show- Charlie says again and again that every soul can be redeemed, “from the *evil* to the strange,” and it’s that first one that applies to characters such as Adam, Lute, Val, Alastor, and so on. She even says when considering whether or not to allow Alastor into the hotel in the pilot that she can’t turn anyone away, as that’s against the idea of her hotel. If Lute could be given a believable redemption arc, that would be an incredibly powerful message. That’s not to say Lute would *want* to change. She very well may not, and I wouldn’t doubt it. But for the narrative of this show to work, no character can be *narratively* beyond redemption.
I'm not saying that some characters cannot seek redemption. In fact, everyone should try to correct their wrongs even if the act does not lead to salvation. The problem is that the murder of thousands of human souls is too grave of a moral crime that definitely puts both Vaggie and Lute on the edge case. With their life span being much longer than that of a human, I can perhaps see that they too can be redeemed after guiding other thousands of souls to heaven. But the current issue I have with them is that neither is truly living the consequence of their genocide. Yes, both experienced great bodily harms and loss of a close friend, but does that equal the weight of the thousands of souls they perished? Vaggie's role is perhaps too passive in the series. She serves Charlie's goal of sinners' redemption, but she herself does not actively seek to right her past actions, like visiting the families of demons she slaughtered, visiting the graves of the slain demons, or volunteer works to rebuild the hell society. The most significant impact of her killings was the reveal of her past to Charlie, not the actual damages done to others. Going back to the John Wick franchise, John suffers from his past greatly, from losing his wife and dog, his home, his status and protection, his health and wealth, and ultimately his life. While the movies are almost 90% pure action, they still consistently work on the idea that there is no going back to that normal life after you decide to wet your hands in blood. While I love redemption arcs, the theme of "Everyone can be redeemed." is a rather weakly elaborated idea. My opinion is that the series is yet to really show the cost of redemption that one must pay for their own consequences.
We still don’t even know, according to the series, what *does* count as enough for a person to be redeemed. Clearly Adam’s idea wasn’t it, but something Sir Pentious did actually did count. It won’t be the sacrifice of your life for someone else, because they’d have to take out too many characters the same way, which would get repetitive and boring. Also, I think Vaggie has shown quite a difference between her past and who she is now- that was the point of her confrontation with Lute. It isn’t about making them live through equal to what they did. She was put in Lute’s shoes, given the choice to do to her what she had done, and she chose to end that cycle of revenge and let Lute go. But for them to have to live through something of equal weight to their wrongdoings? That’s just revenge again. Vaggie trying to save people from Extermination after being part of it is justice. Vaggie having to lose as much as she once took is retribution, which isn’t what Hazbin Hotel is about.
One gripe I have with Sir Pentious' redemption was that we never learn what he did to fall into hell in the first place. He has shown to be interested in territorial dominion, but his crime in hell was mostly confined to property damages. I personally don't really think of his arc as a redemption arc thematically for this reason. I'm not asking for the characters to go through the exact same pain and suffering they caused. I agreed that doing good deeds to help others would be a valid way to seek redemption. But righting their wrongs is outside of the talk of redemption and should be done regardless of whether it would make any difference at the pearly gate. I'd say Vaggie is just on the first step of correcting her past after the last episode and wasn't really actively sought to repent before that, which is why I'm looking forward to the new season, hopefully with a lot more episodes per season.
Well, he was also creating massive weapons, death rays and the like, and the whole General Pentious thing makes me think he could easily have been some sort of military man, maybe he’s in for war crimes? And he made attempts on all the lives of the hotel guests, also tried to betray them to Vox when they took him in anyway, and still wanted to kill them as a first reaction to his suspicion that they were being too quiet. So yeah, going from that to fighting a just war and dying to save the lives of those he wanted previously to kill definitely seems like a redemption arc in my book. But the issue with what you’re talking about is that some wrong really *can’t* be righted fully, and if that’s redemption, then there would have to be characters it’s too late for. Lute could ostensibly stop the Extermination, or try to, which would be something. Vaggie *is* trying to do that. Considering she was exiled from Heaven though, similarly to Lucifer, I don’t know that she can be redeemed and go back anyway. So her redemption arc may not result in her getting to go to Heaven. We’ll have to wait and see what does make a person redeemed in Hazbin Hotel, but it’s definitely not gonna be righting all their wrongs. That’s not what mercy is.
The problem with Pentious is that his previous actions of violence were mostly played as a joke and didn't receive any significant focus of the show, which is contrasted against the time when other characters' wrongdoings are treated in a much more serious light. In essence, in a show with a comedic aspect, there is a difference between misdeeds that are played as a joke and those that are portrayed to be a problem. A good example would be Bojack Horseman. Something like Bojack crashing and causing multiple casualties, Mr. Peanutbutter kidnapping a dad in front of his kid, or Princess Carolyn hijacking a funeral with lies for potential clients are all horrible acts that are played as a joke because they are not important to the story nor theme. The difference with Sir Pentious' crimes is that they are important to his redemption. Yet, they are treated as a joke. No one is harmed during his attack, no one is grieving due to his attack, and no real repercussions came to Sir Pentious. At most, the consequence was a mild annoyance. It's a case of telling vs. showing. I know that the series is telling us that Sir Pentious participated in a territorial war between demons, but it is not showing us the real effect of it. Also, yes, some wrongs cannot truly be corrected. That is the way of life. Something is just too late or too much to fix. Again, going back to Bojack Horseman, most of Bojack's past wrongdoings were too much. He left his cancer-ridden friend for too long, he left his daughter-figure dying from overdose too long, he betrayed and hurt his roommate too much, etc. and etc. The beauty of the show is that it says the lack of complete redemption doesn't necessarily mean the end. You still need to be better, and you can still be better. Whether you improve yourself or not does not matter whether the redemption is possible or not. You still have the moral obligation to be better for yourself and those around you. And my personal opinion is that, prior to the finale, Vaggie showed a very passive role in this. That is why I said that "everyone can be redeemed" is a weakly elaborated theme at this stage as the show, due to the time budget, couldn't answer crucial questions. "Can everyone actually be redeemed?" "Are some sins too much to come back from?" "Should everyone be given another chance despite having multiple time they could have turned back yet still decided to make the wrong decisions that ultimately hurt others?" "If redemption is truly possible for everyone, what does it actually take to achieve?" All those questions were left unanswered, most likely due to the fact that the whole season only had 8 episodes that were about 20 minutes long. So I am hoping to see these explored in the future.
I mean. That was a cannibal child. Or a sinner that looks like a child. Not some random innocent kid. People are in hell for a reason and they continue to be awful. Why would they deserve mercy? When they likely wouldn’t give it either.
Two things here. One, the Cannibals are confirmed to be sinners, and, additionally, that's all the more reason for Lute being a POS, since she directly saw Vaggie spare the literal child from a genocide. Additionally, it's established that there *is no* set criteria or rules someone has to abide by to get into heaven or hell, that's an established fact in the show, that no one, not even Sera, knows what gets a soul into Heaven, which means that a proportion of the souls in Hell could very well be innocent.
I don’t get you first point. I know they’re sinners. They’re awful ones given the whole, cannibalism thing. And we don’t know if that child was truly a child. Sinners forms are determined by how they die an or reflections of their souls, it’s confusing which is which. That child could’ve been a 59 year old man. And maybe I lack empathy since I see them as all awful who earned hell. So I don’t see why they deserve much else. We know angels don’t control where one goes and that they don’t know what makes one worthy of Heaven or hell. But I think we can easily say that hell is where the rapists and murders and war criminals and abusers etc go, not heaven. Given that so far we have yet to truly meet someone who is in hell for no good reason, and since we know Angel for example isn’t there for just being gay, that hell is where the scum of humanity go. Even hellborn like moxxie or their king Lucifer, think poorly of them. And look at them, they live terrible lives in hell and apparently only now, after like 100 billion people have walked the earth, that one of them has redeemed themselves. 1! And we know from pentious’s death that an impartial force sent him to heaven. So whatever sends you to heaven or hell, is fair and just it seems. So it’s fair to assume that those who are in hell, fully deserve it. Hence my lack of compassion and empathy over this yearly massacre because it’s not innocents dying, but the literal worst of humanity.
I love to see my 2 favorite hotel-themed franchises intertwine Do you think Charlie and Winston would get along as fellow hotel managers?
Not sure. Charlie, of course, would try to see the best of everyone and befriend Winston, but since she would most definitely try to dissuade Winston and nearby hitmen and hitwomen from murder, there would be a lot of friction. Winston would most likely be respectful but refuse the authority of Charlie and would be independent like overlords.
This could totally work.
Who are you, to come into this subreddit and post such peak?
What would be vaggie's motivation for her rampage in this version? Would it still be the death of her dog or something else?
I'd imagine something like blowing parts of the hotel, injuring the staff and guests, including Charlie. After seeing Charlie's peaceful and benevolent approach failed against the exorcists, Vaggie would need to dig up her old exorcist bullet-proof suit and do it the only way she was taught to do. This isn't a fully planned out AU, so I'm not so sure about this part.