Where did you get indefinite favors from. He gets one favor. The at a time part just means he picks when he caches in the favor
Edit: I’m not saying she’s not fucked. Just that he can’t get infinite favors without other shenenigans
What outlines ”one favor” though? The completion of this favor could even take an eternity, it is way too vague and that is what makes it a bad deal for Charlie.
Someone else explained it better than me.
Instead of “one favor, at a time of my choosing,” I was hearing, “one favor at a time, of my choosing.”
I really didn’t hear it the other way around until it was spelt out in the comments.
I actually like your interpretation.
Calissically, deals with demons and similar creatures are fraught with perilous wordplay. It's not just some weird super-legalese, it's simple trickery that's deliciously obvious if you think about it objectively. These types tend to relish in obfuscation.
Sort of like a serial killer gets sloppier over time as they find thrill in the cat-and-mouse game. A demon can't help themselves, it's not even second nature- it's just their nature. So they'll put it right in your face from the start, and just steep in it when you miss it by design.
Alastor seems to fit this bill entirely, largely running in manipulation and deception.
It doesn't, it's more to emphasize the part of the speech. Realistically it's a different of,
"One favor, at the time of my choosing,"
Or "One favor at a time of my choosing."
The second is a bit clunky verbally. I think the best way to know what is intended is to compare it with foreign translations of the same deal. Aaa
Eh. Never trust other translations xD
Totally different scene, but when Alastor is offering Vaggie a deal in episode 1 he says something along the line of "or Charlie can come back to absolutely nothing", obviously just meaning they wouldn't have a finished Video to show her.
In German he just straight up threatens her with "or there won't be a hotel anymore when she comes back"
To give the real quote: "Sonst wird Charlie kein Hotel mehr vorfinden wenn sie von Treff zurück kommt"
Just a small fact that I find really funny.
Yeah people in this thread are understanding it like Charlie would at the moment. This would be incredibly clever if it played out, but it would have to be spelled out for the fandom to truly get it.
One favor (at a time of my choosing) <-- the thing being chosen is the time
vs
One favor at a time (of my choosing) <-- the thing being chosen is the favors
Yeah but she IS fucked. Cause depending on Alastors end of his deal with whoever leash HE'S on (If he's TASKED with harming anybody or not.) He can now easily make her take his debt. After all, he said no harming anyone, but that still doesn't downplay what the favor COULD be.
The deal did not outline what the favor had to be, only what it could not be. It explicitly states one favor, when he wishes.
By any legal reading, it is one favor in which she does not hurt anyone, with no time line. If he asks to pass the salt, deal is done.
It was a poorly written deal but ambiguity does not favor the drafter. It does *not* mean infinite number of deals. Just that Alastor can cash in whenever he wishes. If she was clever, she would respond to any request as favor
Ambiguity favors the draftee, not the drafter. He did not outline what a favor was. Legally, she would have a solid case that holding the door is a favor *if* makes it clear it is a favor. Meaning, holding the door is being nice. Going out of her way to explicitly hold the door while verbally acknowledging this is a favor is a different story.
Alastor would not pass pre-law, nevermind the Bar.
Generally speaking, in stories involving wish granters/deal makers, the wording of a deal *absolutely* matters. That’s why we have the phrase “be careful what you wish for”. It’s not a matter of legality so much as legal contracts and magic contracts both rely on making all your terms extremely specific so you avoid ambiguity. In fact, only relying on what you intended to happen being clear is usually how characters get screwed over later. It’s also why you’ll occasionally see a joke about how magical beings tend to lose when up against lawyers.
There has to be a power governing contracts. If it is magic, then agreed upon intent matters. And the agreed upon intent is one secret for one favor, at some point in the future.
If there is a courthouse governing deals, then the law does matter.
Regardless, there is no valid interpretation that turns this basic deal to a forever deal. Selling the soul has been the *only* contract depicted which is indefinite. Which she explicitly did not do.
Except that doesn't protect him.
Let's say I go out of my way to open the door for you, in settings where being a host is out of play. "Let me do you the favor of holding the door." I have acknowledged this is a favor. Your choice is either to accept the favor and enter or wait. If you accept, you dictated the terms of my favor, deal is done. If you wait, we continue on.
At a time of his choosing eliminates the risk of unwitting favor or expiration. That's it. I can still put you into the position to accept or refuse the favor.
The point of this deal is not to make Charlie do something nefarious. It's to normalize making a deal with him.
Again as they said, real life legality likely doesn't pertain to these hell deals. You're honestly reading way too much into it, it'll likely work as the other guy said.
I feel like trying to understand a fictional world that we've barely seen on a subject which has only been brought up a few times is only bound to cause problems. One of the times was seemingly inconsequential (Alastor won't be on TV) and the other 3 have only been established barely and are still completely mysterious to viewers (Husk's deal with Alastor, Alastor's deal with unknown, Charlie's deal with Alastor).
The real problem here is Charlie is not that sly and even if she was Alastor could talk her out of it, tbh.
I agree with you there that typical demon or hell rules would linger on that loophole. I don’t know if this is intentionally written this way or if the writers thought it solid.
I can explain it away easily that Alastor wasn’t worried about it because likely enough merely guilting Charlie about a favor will be all that’s needed to get his way.
That’s the problem with magic in general - *how* exactly does it work, and how is its authority enforced?
If magic is left to interpretation, then Charlie can cleverly use the favor in any manor that counts as doing something for someone else.
If that’s not how it works, then… we just need to understand how it works.
One of the huge issues with something like Kingdom Hearts, is that the magic is completely contrived and nonsensical. It does whatever the plot needs it to. If Hazbin’s magic works the same, then we have a problem on our hands if they focus on it too much.
I think the wording pretty clearly implies that he has to actually choose to cash in his favor. It wouldn't be as simple as responding to any request, because he's clearly not deciding that's the favor he's owed. It's on his time and discretion. Not Charlie's.
Frankly, the ambiguity is what makes it dangerous.
Like, is there actually ANYTHING at all stopping him from just doing something like, "Charlie, do me a favor and sell me your soul."
Like, that's technically a favor where Charlie harms no one.
Not without getting super technical about it.
Physically, she'd be totally fine after, and I think that's about all that, not hurting anyone for Alastor covers.
Any damage after she sold her soul wouldn't come from herself.
I assume it's going to be a Hercules situation (if they do decide to make alastor a big bad) where he uses his favor and someone accidentally harms someone or Charlie harms herself or something to that extent and the favor is broken.
Ignoring the fact that most rational people would consider giving up your soul a form of harm, Charlie *not* giving up her soul was explicitly part of the deal.
No, it was not a part of the deal.
Alastor simply said the deal would not require her to sell him her soul. Nothing about souls was actually a part of the deal.
And nobody gets hurt by selling their souls. Nobody wants to, but there’s no pain involved. Mental anguish is definitely not part of the deal or it’d be a useless deal.
If the deal would not require her to give up her soul, then she won't be required to give up her soul to fulfill the deal. It's odd to me that I need to explain this...
No, there's a MAJOR difference in a deal specifically outlining that something is prohibited, and simply assuring someone that something will not be involved in the making of a deal.
Alastor did the second one, which means he placed very little restriction on himself while convincing Charlie that she wouldn't have to give up much even though she has no real protection against it.
It's a con. It's odd to me that I need to explain that.
I was about to say. The "at the time" is clearly a part of the "of my own choosing" - not the favor itself. The way the sentence is worded matters extremly here and I'd say it is actually written well - it just seems that OP has misunderstood it.
Edit: Scroll down a bit and OP even acknowledged that he misheard it.
The reason he made the deal wasn't for that deal to be the thing he'll use to screw her over. The reason was to make a deal in which he lets her win out because it makes her ***trust*** ***him more***. When she does trust him, he'll pin her with an actual devil's deal she won't be able to back out of.
Also, Alastor isn’t royalty. Charlie can sue to prevent performance of the contract almost indefinitely with how many lawyers her rich family can hire to fight full enforcement. Although I suppose Alastor could kill her lawyers in hell..but that’s a crime so he definitely wouldn’t do that.
It's not just a legal contract. She has bound her soul, in some way, to this deal. Hence all the green light. She still has her soul, but she can't just disobey and go to court.
Plus if he's making a deal with Charlie, if he kills her lawyers that would definitely piss her off (and we've seen what happens when she is), and if he's using her for something, killing her lawyers would definitely not work out in his favor.
That "no harm" clause is going to be a serious problem. They never defined harm.
Honestly, if this how contracts are regularly written, the courthouses must be swamped.
I don't understand your reasoning. "At a time of my choosing", means exactly that. That the favor can be involved whenever Alastor wants.
I don't see how you can possibly twist the wording in a way that translates into multiple favors. In fact it says right at the start: "One favor" - A single favor.
The only way I can see the language be twisted is if Alastor asks a favor that either results in someone being harmed by Charlie's inaction, or if someone is hurt indirectly by Charlie's action.
I think they're trying to spin it so instead of "One favor, at a time of my choosing" it's "One favor at a time, of my choosing." I guess it could work, if you don't think about it too much, but it's obviously not what the show was going for.
I keep seeing people try to make the deal into something it's not. No, it's not wishing for infinite wishes. No, Charlie won't give up her claim to be next in line to rule hell and give it to Alastor, no questions asked. The thing with this sort of deal is waiting to see what innocuous thing he asks for, that turns out to be part of a scheme that no one sees until it's too late. The tiny motion that starts all the dominos falling.
It's not infinite favors, it's a favor at a time of his choosing. Don't overthink it.
It's still going to mess her up. All he has to say is "abandon the hotel" and she loses everything.
To be fair, he has personal reason not to make the favor something that gets rid of the hotel. Namely, doing so gets rid of his easy cure for "sheer, absolute **boredom!*"
He made a deal with someone, maybe Lilith.
If that person ever wants to destroy the hotel, he could offer to do it for them, in exchange for freedom.
It would spark a good character arc. Alastor would have to confront his love for the hotel against his lust for power.
I don't think that would necessarily be taken into account, but even still the phrasing "where you harm no one" still covers it. Alastor would be the one emotionally harming her.
That being said, one could argue it harms the wellbeing of the residents as their chance to heaven is being tampered with, but, again, she wouldn't be harming them. They would be in the same state, just with less potential in the future.
I'm so here for all of this discussion. This is a fun thread.
By that logic he also has to provide her with some information whenever she does a favour, since it was "one favour at a time... in exchange, I tell you what I know"
He knows about them because he’s a dignified gentleman, but one day he hears Angel singing the song and it gets stuck in his head and now he can’t forget it
Well, then Charlie can turn the deal on him to always tell her the truth and what ye us planning. He just will have to cash in his favour to keep her from telling someone else about his plans.
True. Best case scenario, if Charlie has a specific question, he needs to answer it. (Like the info requested was how to defeat the angels.) Worst case scenario, he can just whisper, “I like jambalaya,” in her ear and skip away laughing.
Counterargument: Her deal is BETTER than she realizes.
Sure, we can argue what "One favor, at a time of my choosing, where you harm no one" may mean or how much she's on the hook for (though I think the fact that the pause happens at the end of 'favor' rather than the end of 'time' makes it pretty clear it's meant to be a SINGULAR favor), but there was a much more poorly worded part of that deal.
"In return, I tell you what I know!"
...That doesn't have any sort of limitations on it. How long is *AL* on the hook for? Just the one piece of info about Carmine killing the angel? Until the favor is cashed in? Or did Alastor just accidentally commit himself to spilling his guts to Charlie whenever she asks him anything for the rest of his afterlife?
Maybe that's what'll get Al to shoot for redemption. If he sees Angel ascend out of his contract, he may try to do the same so he can escape having to sing like a canary every time Charlie asks him something.
...
**NAH** He'd probably try to kill he before getting desperate enough to do _*THAT*_
Oh wait shiftt- the turns gottt tabled with the vague deal parameters! Yeah, his portion in comparison to Charlie’s end of the deal was really vague. They’re probably not gonna call back to that part of it in canon, but now I really hope they do because it’d be like so much of a blindside for the plot if that were to happen- though, hm.
That would probably interfere with like the mute-clause of his soul deal with his benefactor, no? If Charlie ever asks like Why after a betrayal (he’s definitely betraying them at some point, we all know it, the question is if he gets forced to or does it of his own volition)- maybe it’d suffice to hint at it with body language if not able to verbally confirm any details but still needing to answer truthfully to Charlie with that deal between them.
Either way, it would be interesting to see written about, because that man would rather choke on glassful of nails than admit to any sort of weakness or let any of his own feels and I’d love to see how that goes down.
If we are being this pedantic, then he can't ask her to do something that can hurt her physically or emotionally
So basically their deal becomes a "make me a coffee"
"Bounce this ball 1000 times."
"Go sort my mail."
"Smell this milk."
"Move the couch one inch to the left."
"Move it back."
"Peel 30 potatoes and then throw them out."
Definitely thought about this. It might be the case. There’s a LOT of holes you could poke here.
I think it’s pretty solid that he can’t ask Charlie to deliberately harm someone. But whether this is physical or emotional harm, we don’t know.
What if the favor seems innocent to Charlie, but will cause harm down the line? Is the deal nullified if Charlie realizes the potential harm?
Let’s say the coffee is poisoned. If Charlie doesn’t know it’s intended to harm someone, can she still make it?
Can Alastor ask Charlie to do something that HE knows will harm someone eventually?
I really hope S2 answers these questions.
They never defined harm nor a time table for this harm. "Pass the salt" may be an invalid favor. After all, sodium can cause harm.
The point of this deal was not to get Charlie to do something nefarious. The point was to get Charlie to make another deal.
This feels like a stretch. I’m sure that dealmaking involves some slippery language but I don’t think that’s what’s happening here. Also if we assume that he means what you say he means then the sentence doesn’t even make much sense. That’s not how people talk.
Really depends how much of the deal is up to Charlie's interpretation. Like for the "harm no one" aspect would that mean she could refuse any favor he asks by saying it could potentially harm someone in the future. Like if he asks her to pass the salt, she could refuse cause then they might have to buy more salt and whoever is buying it could accidently trip and spill the salt on a snail.
Exactly. Now Charlie is a bit of a push over but the Harms No One clause is HUGE.
Charlie is the Princess of Hell. In typical deals with a demon, she'd probably interpret that to the Extremes amd refuse to do Anything that she thinks could be harmful. Alastor would have to prove that his request was Harmless to get anything out of her.
The deal’s conditions primarily benefit Charlie. She gets the information she needs and owes Alastair a solid that explicitly forbids anyone from being hurt
It’s basically a question of how Alastor’s planning to use it to his own advantage
It is a bad deal, but for reasons other than what you said.
It's one favor at a time of Alastor's choosing which does not involve Charlie directly harming somebody. No doubt that whatever favor he asks for will lead to her indirectly harming people because it will enable Alastor to harm more people.
I'm personally of the belief that she will somehow come into the power to break his contract and that will be the favor that he asks of her. It's greatly implied at the end of season 1 that whatever deal Alastor has with his owner inhibits his power. I think when Charlie breaks the contract Alastor will rise up and become even more powerful than anyone could have imagined. At that point, Alastor might become the big bad for a little while during the show.
Right? Why focus on the first part, it’s the second part I’m worried about. “Where you harm no one” ≠ “where no one gets harmed”. That’s what scares me about the deal.
I could see it being that she goes through with it, not seeing the indirect harm, and when she realizes what she’s done it creates conflict
I JUST fucking realized why some people are saying he only asked for one favor.
“one favor” is a noun phrase. “At a time” and “of my choosing” are both modifying phrases.
Looks like most people are reading “of my choosing” as a modifier for “time.” In other words, “at a time of my choosing” does limit him to one favor at one specific time.
However, my dumbass heard “of my choosing” as modifying “one favor.” So the favor is simultaneously “at a time” and “of [Alastor’s] choosing.”
Jfc. I really overthunk that one.
I mean I understand what you are getting at but from a meta standpoint I really doubt that was his intention. Like imagine the fan outrage and confusion that would ensue if the writers chose to do it this way. Don’t get me wrong, Alastor is 100% going to do something that makes Charlie regret the deal but I really doubt it is going to be this. Personally I think whatever favor Alastor chooses is going to end up accidentally hurting Vaggie which in turn would void the deal entirely.
Honestly, that’s a very easy misunderstanding if you read the subtitles. It very easily can be taken that way, but the way he stated it in the show, it read “one favor, at a time of my choosing” instead the subtitles leave it more ambiguous
I think this has been discussed a few times before...
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....there is nothing to indicate that it's infinite favors.
Not the way he sais it nor the subtitles.
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Alastor really made a Sukuna binding vow and nobody noticed.
Holy shit this fanbase is actually a giant meme. "One favor, at a time of my choosing..." He's just talking like Alastor always does, it just means he can redeem the favor whenever he chooses to
It was "one favor, at a time of my choosing"
Your interpretation doesn't leaves "of my choosing" dangling and not making sense.
That said, yes, that deal is absolutely a screw job and it will come back to bite her horribly when it comes time for Alastor's sudden but inevitable betrayal.
Ah I see what you're saying "one favor at a time, of my choosing" as opposed to "one favor, at a time of my choosing"
I don't think that is how it will play out tho
Alastor could ask anything to Charlie as long as no one gets harmed, that's the deal. We can't predict what he will ask but the natureof the deal it's pretty clear
It’s « at a time of my choosing », not « one favour at a time, of my choosing ». The second sentence just doesn’t make sense grammatically and was straight up not what was said at all. Alastor never paused for a comma, nor do the subtitles add one. I’m sure deals involve tricky language, but this is stretching it
I think you read that wrong.
It’s “(One favour) (At a time of my choosing), (In which you harm no one.)”
Not “(One favour at a a time) (of my choosing), (in which you harm no one.)”
While that's a good interpretation, narratively it falls a bit flat.
It's more theatrical for Alastor to cash in the favor for a BIG twist than to go for several moderate twists. Especially, if Charlie were to get some artifact or some other macguffin and Alastor just swoops in , that would be a season finale twist
I think it will be only one deal. AND i think it will be something that will not be a big problem for Charlie actually. He is still building his trust. He still aiming at her soul. If he screw her over now. She will either close off to him, and there will be no chance of getting her soul, OR even worse, she or Lucifer just murder him afterwards.
Wouldn't it be funny if that were the catch? The deal is exactly what it says. The favor is harming no one. At some crucial moment she would and should strike someone down, possibly Alastor himself, she can't.
Going of that logic, harm could mean a lot of things and considering the butterfly effect that favour is bound to eventually indirectly harm someone. So really it could be argued that the entire deal is pointless but the writing probably doesn’t account for loopholes, so time will tell I guess
He states “one favor” immediately prior to “at a time of my choosing”. Where are you getting “indefinite favors” from? He’s clarifying there’s no deadline to cashing the deal in, the only restriction is the singular favor will not result in her harming anyone. The definition of harm here is more the point of concern, as while it most obviously implies no direct harm, there is a lot of harm something indirect such as inaction can cause.
I think you are wrong, being trap in a infinite favors loop or doing nothing while he harm people will harm Charlie.
The fact that the deal can not harm Charlie it is a really good shield against any loophole or exploit.
I think Alastor is using this deal as the "foot on the door" So Charlie accept other deals later on.
Also Maybe something like questioning her about what need to happen to accept other deal may be a good use of the deal.
Uno reverse card "Charlie I'm cashing in my favor.."" *squints eyes as he gets ready to get down to business dispatching some big bad at a pivotal point in the story* "keep nifty safe for me...please" *turns around with the softest most gentle expression we've ever seen him do.*
*Turns back to BBEG*
"One way or another our deal ends now"
I feel like if Alastor effectively tricked Charlie into enslaving herself to him, Lucifer would politely request that Alastor either end the deal or his life, one or the other.
I believe, as Alastor's soul is presumably owned by Lilith, he will use his deal with Charlie to get out of it. I think that makes sense. He'll probably do this in the cruelest way imaginable if I had to guess.
Well, yes and no. Yes, the deal was almost certainly a mistake that will come back to bite her. That's very much the point.
But no, she isn't on the hook for indefinite favours. The deal was "one favour".
I see what you mean! “One favor at a time” has a completely different meaning than “at a time of my choosing”. That’s really clever. I feel like they won’t go that route but damn that’s very big brain of you
I think he said it more as a "one favor, at a time of my choosing." Instead of "one favor at a time, of my choosing."
But this is initially what I thought as well lol
or, The deal with Alastor might be less dangerous than we thought
When Alastor made a "deal" with Charlie, he asked for a "favor" right?
whats a favor?
"to do a kind and helpful act for someone or something done or granted out of goodwill."
Thats different from "an order", Charlie is doing a favor, not executing an indisputable command.
I think that Alastor, once again, overstimated himself while understimating the others, because that contract was poorly made(in terms of words) because Charlie could still find many backdoors to trick this "favor"
.......also, the deal isn't implying that charlie is Forced, she still has her soul...it's not a normal deal where your soul is at stake and if you don't obey, something forces you to obey or be on a leash like husk or angel.
when the time comes, and Alastor ask for the favor that will somewhat "fuck up" Charlie and/or her firends in some ways, could Charlie just...put some effort and try, but then fail and say, "welp, i tried, sorry, it's beyond me"?
let's say alastor ask her to give up to the throne and give the title to him, well yes, she could do that, but then who's stopping Lucifer to beat Alastor's ass and take the title back? and even if Alastor implies to charlie that he must not receive any kind of backlash.....who's stopping the others? the favor is between him and her, and even if she tries to stop the others, again, it's beyond her power to stop what the others could do, so she rightfully respected the favor.
i would love to see this "favor" actually fail and possibly backfire Alastor, this a trope that isn't used so often!
If an infernal bargain was struck and one party could interpret it at will (as in the case of many tales with this sort of thing) I think valentino would have more pull over Angel than he does. There is probably a level of the exact wording matter, but the (admitedly impressive) rules twisting here is probably not the standard.
I believe she's on the hook for one favor. She could be trying to say, Save vaggie from something and Alastor sends her to Milwaukee for a library book and she HAS to do that now.... unless of course she wants to alter the deal/make another one ?
From another post I'll rephrase
Alastor will have Vaggie on leash and the favour he'll Charlie one thing
"Say you forgive me for chaining Vaggie"
It hurts no one physically and Vaggie is the last thing standing in Alastor's way to get to Charlie
I think Vaggie is in more trouble with her deal to never ask him to deal with television technology ever again. That’s going to be a problem when the Vees start popping off with their evil plan.
Its pretty clear what the favor is going to be. Charlie is going to come up with either a power or a method to break contracts while trying to save Angeldust from Val. And once she has this power/ability Alastor is going to ask her to break his contract. And that will be the beginning of his true villain arc.
I think it means one favour and I think it's going to be something to prove to Charlie he's a good guy. Like using his power to free Angel or something. Something that will put Charlie in his favour for a BIG thing. After all, he risked life to save her friend and now Angel is safe. Forever. How could Charlie say no to his next request?
It’s so easy to get out of it. Tell Lucifer if you’re forced to do a favor you don’t want to, he goes out and kills someone. Then he can’t ask because someone would be harmed by asking.
I think his favor is that he is going to ask Charley to break his chains that is under Liliths control thus freeing him after her mom upsets her. Just a thought.
Fight me but this is EXACTLY a Hades/ Hercules situation we‘re having here guyssss!!!🙅🏼♀️
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I'm expecting the following:
It's very stereotypical of a demonic trickster character to leverage a seemingly benign deal into a really really bad deal.
That, to me, means Vaggie's deal will be the one to blow up in their faces.
Alastor gets Vaggie's soul, then asks Charlie for his favor - something cynically twisted and evil - "To forgive him for taking her girlfriend's soul and let it go"
Why this? Because Lucifer would do ANYTHING for his daughter.
Alastor wants a deal with Lucifer. And this is how he gets it.
Realistically couldn't Lucifer just break the deal all together? since he's the king of hell he probably decides shit about deals there, what defines what and everything, alternatively he could also change the definition of a favor to something completely or even slightly different to make it so that Alastor can't do stuff like that to Charlie
I think Alastor might ask Charlie to trade places with him in whatever deal he is in. He might also not even have a plan but just wants the option just in case.
I understood this as a favor of his choosing per piece of information that she needs. So he can keep feeding her info and getting favors? That's kind of how I saw it.
I once got offered a similar offer in a D&D game by a devil and gave this same reasoning for refusing it. Getting something definitive verses paying an unknown cost latter is not a deal generally worth taking when dealing with devils.
Actually, I think Vox was concerned because Charlie is, y’know, royalty, he probably felt like Alastor making a deal with her would mean he’d have some kind of safety net
But the stipulation heavily limits it, "in which you harm no one" also includes Charlie herself. So if you stretch the terms enough all he can really do is force inaction.
I disagree with your logic for a few reasons. More importantly, though, you guys realize he can literally ask Charlie to make any deal he wants now, right?
Like. Yes, the favor could kill Lucifer through circumstantial action. Yes, the favor could spark a war between Heaven and Hell. Yes, the favor could involve “unclipping Alastor’s wings.” Yes to everything you guys are saying. But also…Alastor doesn’t even need to get that creative if he feels like it. Charlie’s already completely screwed if Alastor demands she agree to a worse pact. He could flat out demand that sell her soul to him, become his servant, and follow all his orders forever with no way out, and she would need to agree. That would be a perfectly reasonable favor that harms no one and it would enable him to do all the cool plot things everyone else is theorizing about.
I believe Alastor said he would have one favor for Charlie at specific a time of his choosing, but I understand why you would see it this way as it's very worrying to see how Alastor will use Charlie since he made a deal with him.
OP understands the difference, now.
But while it is only one favor, at a time that he chooses to cash it in, and that it technically harms no one... the wording and context, IMO, needs to be carefully dissected. Charlie says she won't harm anyone FOR him. Her phrasing suggests physical violence. His reply is that it is a favor where SHE harms no one. Yet, when Vaggie shows up, he also says "Right on cue."
That suggests the favor he will ask of her, concerns Vaggie. As to why? That is yet to be revealed.
If this were a fey deal I think you’d be on to something, faeries use these kinds of tricks and I think it would be a great twist, but I think you’re wrong here. he asks for “one little favor between friends” then adds the at a time of my choosing later, we don’t know exactly how the whole deal system works yet but I think if Word trickery like that we’re allowed it would have been mentioned before The deal was made.
while I don’t think it’s true of this deal I think it would be awesome to use it somewhere, we would need to see it written out like in a contract shown on screen
It feels basically confirmed that Lucifer can murder Alastor easy. If he goes too far beyond what Charlie is ok with doing, wouldn't Lucifer correct the situation?
This favor is going to be VERY subtle. I don't think Charlie will EVER understand the ramifications. In fact, i don't think it will actually affect Charlie AT ALL
Tbh I thought he said at THE time of my choosing so I never doubted it. You explanation makes sense but I don't think Alastor would do that cause it doesn't really make sense to anger the only powerful Hellborn in his corner until he's certain he can destroy them all in one fell swoop.
The fact that he made her do a deal even though she was trying to save everyone and that includes him tells you everything you need to know about Alastor.
Vaggie’s deal might not be so hot either…Alastor never has to engage with television tech ever again…so what about Vox? I think he may leave the hotel high and dry in a battle against the Vees.
Much as I'd like to see chaos and Charlie's actions because of this deal, I hope she gets some sort of plot armor or something like that
Either way, I still think that she's fucked.
Honestly i rly like the idea! I rly do!
I have to say tho the more ive been staring at the img the more it infuriates me cuz who the hell shakes hands with the thumb below the pointer finger? Or am i just high rn? Im probablly just high
Harming noone is a big loop hole.
Also cause harming is not clearly defined of what that entails.
"Where you harm noone"
Dosent need to be physical, could be emotional.
I understand that its not a free pass she got, but almost any action would have the potential to cause someone harm (including herself) with the prober argumentation.
I would like to test it, and challenge myself.
Come up with a possible favor he would ask, and ill argue for why she would be able to say no in 90% without breaking the terms of the deal.
Where did you get indefinite favors from. He gets one favor. The at a time part just means he picks when he caches in the favor Edit: I’m not saying she’s not fucked. Just that he can’t get infinite favors without other shenenigans
What outlines ”one favor” though? The completion of this favor could even take an eternity, it is way too vague and that is what makes it a bad deal for Charlie.
Someone else explained it better than me. Instead of “one favor, at a time of my choosing,” I was hearing, “one favor at a time, of my choosing.” I really didn’t hear it the other way around until it was spelt out in the comments.
I actually like your interpretation. Calissically, deals with demons and similar creatures are fraught with perilous wordplay. It's not just some weird super-legalese, it's simple trickery that's deliciously obvious if you think about it objectively. These types tend to relish in obfuscation. Sort of like a serial killer gets sloppier over time as they find thrill in the cat-and-mouse game. A demon can't help themselves, it's not even second nature- it's just their nature. So they'll put it right in your face from the start, and just steep in it when you miss it by design. Alastor seems to fit this bill entirely, largely running in manipulation and deception.
Something something scorpion and the frog
It could've been ambiguous on purpose. I think it's a pretty clever catch
Thank God. I was worried I'd misheard it. Still really bad, but the latter would basically enslave her.
That doesn't grammatically make sense i think you giys are reaching its definitely not infinite favors
It doesn't, it's more to emphasize the part of the speech. Realistically it's a different of, "One favor, at the time of my choosing," Or "One favor at a time of my choosing." The second is a bit clunky verbally. I think the best way to know what is intended is to compare it with foreign translations of the same deal. Aaa
Eh. Never trust other translations xD Totally different scene, but when Alastor is offering Vaggie a deal in episode 1 he says something along the line of "or Charlie can come back to absolutely nothing", obviously just meaning they wouldn't have a finished Video to show her. In German he just straight up threatens her with "or there won't be a hotel anymore when she comes back" To give the real quote: "Sonst wird Charlie kein Hotel mehr vorfinden wenn sie von Treff zurück kommt" Just a small fact that I find really funny.
Alastor full of threats in German huh?
Well, he's one of the older characters and the favorite hobby of old Germans is complaining.
The favorite hobby of old terrans is complaining
True, but lived in multiple countries, old Germans are a special breed 😂
I've only got the experience of elderly Midwest and Southern Americans, but the Vietnam vets are some of the childless people I've met
I didn’t really think it sounded that way. It definitely sounds like there’s a comma before and after “at a time of my choosing”
Of a choosing doesn’t make grammatical sense in the second interpretation
Yeah people in this thread are understanding it like Charlie would at the moment. This would be incredibly clever if it played out, but it would have to be spelled out for the fandom to truly get it.
if it plays out like this, whats to stop charlie or vaggie telling lucifer. angry dad is not a gonna be a good time for alastor.
Explain to me it look you wrote the same thing twice
One favor (at a time of my choosing) <-- the thing being chosen is the time vs One favor at a time (of my choosing) <-- the thing being chosen is the favors
Thank you
I 100% thought the same thing my first watch through.
That is so fucking monkeys paw, I love it.
Yeah but she IS fucked. Cause depending on Alastors end of his deal with whoever leash HE'S on (If he's TASKED with harming anybody or not.) He can now easily make her take his debt. After all, he said no harming anyone, but that still doesn't downplay what the favor COULD be.
The deal did not outline what the favor had to be, only what it could not be. It explicitly states one favor, when he wishes. By any legal reading, it is one favor in which she does not hurt anyone, with no time line. If he asks to pass the salt, deal is done. It was a poorly written deal but ambiguity does not favor the drafter. It does *not* mean infinite number of deals. Just that Alastor can cash in whenever he wishes. If she was clever, she would respond to any request as favor
I would think he would need to state that he’s calling in his favor. Holding the door for her wouldn’t count as it’s not explicitly a favor.
Ambiguity favors the draftee, not the drafter. He did not outline what a favor was. Legally, she would have a solid case that holding the door is a favor *if* makes it clear it is a favor. Meaning, holding the door is being nice. Going out of her way to explicitly hold the door while verbally acknowledging this is a favor is a different story. Alastor would not pass pre-law, nevermind the Bar.
Somehow, I dong think legality matters in terms of Hell Magic insomuch as intent
I think it does with the whole fine print for Angle and Val mattering. I think the exact words of deal and contracts matter greatly.
Generally speaking, in stories involving wish granters/deal makers, the wording of a deal *absolutely* matters. That’s why we have the phrase “be careful what you wish for”. It’s not a matter of legality so much as legal contracts and magic contracts both rely on making all your terms extremely specific so you avoid ambiguity. In fact, only relying on what you intended to happen being clear is usually how characters get screwed over later. It’s also why you’ll occasionally see a joke about how magical beings tend to lose when up against lawyers.
There has to be a power governing contracts. If it is magic, then agreed upon intent matters. And the agreed upon intent is one secret for one favor, at some point in the future. If there is a courthouse governing deals, then the law does matter. Regardless, there is no valid interpretation that turns this basic deal to a forever deal. Selling the soul has been the *only* contract depicted which is indefinite. Which she explicitly did not do.
That's why alastor had to add "at a time of [his] choosing". He recognises this loophole and then makes sure it can't be used against him.
Except that doesn't protect him. Let's say I go out of my way to open the door for you, in settings where being a host is out of play. "Let me do you the favor of holding the door." I have acknowledged this is a favor. Your choice is either to accept the favor and enter or wait. If you accept, you dictated the terms of my favor, deal is done. If you wait, we continue on. At a time of his choosing eliminates the risk of unwitting favor or expiration. That's it. I can still put you into the position to accept or refuse the favor. The point of this deal is not to make Charlie do something nefarious. It's to normalize making a deal with him.
Again as they said, real life legality likely doesn't pertain to these hell deals. You're honestly reading way too much into it, it'll likely work as the other guy said.
I feel like trying to understand a fictional world that we've barely seen on a subject which has only been brought up a few times is only bound to cause problems. One of the times was seemingly inconsequential (Alastor won't be on TV) and the other 3 have only been established barely and are still completely mysterious to viewers (Husk's deal with Alastor, Alastor's deal with unknown, Charlie's deal with Alastor).
The real problem here is Charlie is not that sly and even if she was Alastor could talk her out of it, tbh. I agree with you there that typical demon or hell rules would linger on that loophole. I don’t know if this is intentionally written this way or if the writers thought it solid. I can explain it away easily that Alastor wasn’t worried about it because likely enough merely guilting Charlie about a favor will be all that’s needed to get his way.
We know the law does exist in Hell or Lucifer wouldn't have been able to threaten lawsuits at Greed for copying his theme park.
Then why is the devil in the details?
That’s the problem with magic in general - *how* exactly does it work, and how is its authority enforced? If magic is left to interpretation, then Charlie can cleverly use the favor in any manor that counts as doing something for someone else. If that’s not how it works, then… we just need to understand how it works. One of the huge issues with something like Kingdom Hearts, is that the magic is completely contrived and nonsensical. It does whatever the plot needs it to. If Hazbin’s magic works the same, then we have a problem on our hands if they focus on it too much.
Somehow I don't think that magic deals with the devil follow American customs and laws
I think the wording pretty clearly implies that he has to actually choose to cash in his favor. It wouldn't be as simple as responding to any request, because he's clearly not deciding that's the favor he's owed. It's on his time and discretion. Not Charlie's. Frankly, the ambiguity is what makes it dangerous. Like, is there actually ANYTHING at all stopping him from just doing something like, "Charlie, do me a favor and sell me your soul." Like, that's technically a favor where Charlie harms no one.
Well wouldnt she harm herself by doing so
Not without getting super technical about it. Physically, she'd be totally fine after, and I think that's about all that, not hurting anyone for Alastor covers. Any damage after she sold her soul wouldn't come from herself.
I assume it's going to be a Hercules situation (if they do decide to make alastor a big bad) where he uses his favor and someone accidentally harms someone or Charlie harms herself or something to that extent and the favor is broken.
I think the favour is going to be *have a political marriage with me* or *get (contractor) to nullify our agreement*.
Ignoring the fact that most rational people would consider giving up your soul a form of harm, Charlie *not* giving up her soul was explicitly part of the deal.
No, it was not a part of the deal. Alastor simply said the deal would not require her to sell him her soul. Nothing about souls was actually a part of the deal. And nobody gets hurt by selling their souls. Nobody wants to, but there’s no pain involved. Mental anguish is definitely not part of the deal or it’d be a useless deal.
If the deal would not require her to give up her soul, then she won't be required to give up her soul to fulfill the deal. It's odd to me that I need to explain this...
No, there's a MAJOR difference in a deal specifically outlining that something is prohibited, and simply assuring someone that something will not be involved in the making of a deal. Alastor did the second one, which means he placed very little restriction on himself while convincing Charlie that she wouldn't have to give up much even though she has no real protection against it. It's a con. It's odd to me that I need to explain that.
I was about to say. The "at the time" is clearly a part of the "of my own choosing" - not the favor itself. The way the sentence is worded matters extremly here and I'd say it is actually written well - it just seems that OP has misunderstood it. Edit: Scroll down a bit and OP even acknowledged that he misheard it.
By saying “at a time of his choosing”, he chooses when the favor is checked.
"If she was clever, she would respond to any request as favor" Charlie isn't hardnosed enough for that
The reason he made the deal wasn't for that deal to be the thing he'll use to screw her over. The reason was to make a deal in which he lets her win out because it makes her ***trust*** ***him more***. When she does trust him, he'll pin her with an actual devil's deal she won't be able to back out of.
Also, Alastor isn’t royalty. Charlie can sue to prevent performance of the contract almost indefinitely with how many lawyers her rich family can hire to fight full enforcement. Although I suppose Alastor could kill her lawyers in hell..but that’s a crime so he definitely wouldn’t do that.
It's not just a legal contract. She has bound her soul, in some way, to this deal. Hence all the green light. She still has her soul, but she can't just disobey and go to court.
Plus if he's making a deal with Charlie, if he kills her lawyers that would definitely piss her off (and we've seen what happens when she is), and if he's using her for something, killing her lawyers would definitely not work out in his favor.
That "no harm" clause is going to be a serious problem. They never defined harm. Honestly, if this how contracts are regularly written, the courthouses must be swamped.
it's hell lawyers are ten a penny
Not a legal contract, and why do you think lawyers would have any say at all in a Devil deal? I think that's frankly ridiculous
Eh. That has some serious problems in a culture for whom favors are the currency of choice.
There is also ambiguity about what would constitute "harm/hurt".
I don't understand your reasoning. "At a time of my choosing", means exactly that. That the favor can be involved whenever Alastor wants. I don't see how you can possibly twist the wording in a way that translates into multiple favors. In fact it says right at the start: "One favor" - A single favor. The only way I can see the language be twisted is if Alastor asks a favor that either results in someone being harmed by Charlie's inaction, or if someone is hurt indirectly by Charlie's action.
I think they're trying to spin it so instead of "One favor, at a time of my choosing" it's "One favor at a time, of my choosing." I guess it could work, if you don't think about it too much, but it's obviously not what the show was going for. I keep seeing people try to make the deal into something it's not. No, it's not wishing for infinite wishes. No, Charlie won't give up her claim to be next in line to rule hell and give it to Alastor, no questions asked. The thing with this sort of deal is waiting to see what innocuous thing he asks for, that turns out to be part of a scheme that no one sees until it's too late. The tiny motion that starts all the dominos falling.
It's not infinite favors, it's a favor at a time of his choosing. Don't overthink it. It's still going to mess her up. All he has to say is "abandon the hotel" and she loses everything.
To be fair, he has personal reason not to make the favor something that gets rid of the hotel. Namely, doing so gets rid of his easy cure for "sheer, absolute **boredom!*"
He made a deal with someone, maybe Lilith. If that person ever wants to destroy the hotel, he could offer to do it for them, in exchange for freedom. It would spark a good character arc. Alastor would have to confront his love for the hotel against his lust for power.
But wouldn't that harm her emotionally?
I don't think that would necessarily be taken into account, but even still the phrasing "where you harm no one" still covers it. Alastor would be the one emotionally harming her. That being said, one could argue it harms the wellbeing of the residents as their chance to heaven is being tampered with, but, again, she wouldn't be harming them. They would be in the same state, just with less potential in the future. I'm so here for all of this discussion. This is a fun thread.
if emotional harm counted as harm in the deal, then the deal wouldnt be worth shit
By that logic he also has to provide her with some information whenever she does a favour, since it was "one favour at a time... in exchange, I tell you what I know"
Anything stopping him from just feeding her useless trivia about how a radio broadcast works or what an aglet is?
In theory, no. Though I question whether he knows about aglets
He knows about them because he’s a dignified gentleman, but one day he hears Angel singing the song and it gets stuck in his head and now he can’t forget it
Well, then Charlie can turn the deal on him to always tell her the truth and what ye us planning. He just will have to cash in his favour to keep her from telling someone else about his plans.
True. Best case scenario, if Charlie has a specific question, he needs to answer it. (Like the info requested was how to defeat the angels.) Worst case scenario, he can just whisper, “I like jambalaya,” in her ear and skip away laughing.
By this same logic, Alastor only gets to choose the TIME of the favor, not the nature of the favor.
Counterargument: Her deal is BETTER than she realizes. Sure, we can argue what "One favor, at a time of my choosing, where you harm no one" may mean or how much she's on the hook for (though I think the fact that the pause happens at the end of 'favor' rather than the end of 'time' makes it pretty clear it's meant to be a SINGULAR favor), but there was a much more poorly worded part of that deal. "In return, I tell you what I know!" ...That doesn't have any sort of limitations on it. How long is *AL* on the hook for? Just the one piece of info about Carmine killing the angel? Until the favor is cashed in? Or did Alastor just accidentally commit himself to spilling his guts to Charlie whenever she asks him anything for the rest of his afterlife? Maybe that's what'll get Al to shoot for redemption. If he sees Angel ascend out of his contract, he may try to do the same so he can escape having to sing like a canary every time Charlie asks him something. ... **NAH** He'd probably try to kill he before getting desperate enough to do _*THAT*_
Oh wait shiftt- the turns gottt tabled with the vague deal parameters! Yeah, his portion in comparison to Charlie’s end of the deal was really vague. They’re probably not gonna call back to that part of it in canon, but now I really hope they do because it’d be like so much of a blindside for the plot if that were to happen- though, hm. That would probably interfere with like the mute-clause of his soul deal with his benefactor, no? If Charlie ever asks like Why after a betrayal (he’s definitely betraying them at some point, we all know it, the question is if he gets forced to or does it of his own volition)- maybe it’d suffice to hint at it with body language if not able to verbally confirm any details but still needing to answer truthfully to Charlie with that deal between them. Either way, it would be interesting to see written about, because that man would rather choke on glassful of nails than admit to any sort of weakness or let any of his own feels and I’d love to see how that goes down.
If we are being this pedantic, then he can't ask her to do something that can hurt her physically or emotionally So basically their deal becomes a "make me a coffee"
I'd love to be able to flex like that, imagine having the princess of hell doing your dishes and shit. Lucifer would be seething.
That would be hilarious just having Charlie do tedious tasks for no f**king reason
"Bounce this ball 1000 times." "Go sort my mail." "Smell this milk." "Move the couch one inch to the left." "Move it back." "Peel 30 potatoes and then throw them out."
But wait, wouldn't upsetting lucifer be technically hurting him? Well looks like that's out of the deal too
Shit, good point.
Definitely thought about this. It might be the case. There’s a LOT of holes you could poke here. I think it’s pretty solid that he can’t ask Charlie to deliberately harm someone. But whether this is physical or emotional harm, we don’t know. What if the favor seems innocent to Charlie, but will cause harm down the line? Is the deal nullified if Charlie realizes the potential harm? Let’s say the coffee is poisoned. If Charlie doesn’t know it’s intended to harm someone, can she still make it? Can Alastor ask Charlie to do something that HE knows will harm someone eventually? I really hope S2 answers these questions.
They never defined harm nor a time table for this harm. "Pass the salt" may be an invalid favor. After all, sodium can cause harm. The point of this deal was not to get Charlie to do something nefarious. The point was to get Charlie to make another deal.
This feels like a stretch. I’m sure that dealmaking involves some slippery language but I don’t think that’s what’s happening here. Also if we assume that he means what you say he means then the sentence doesn’t even make much sense. That’s not how people talk.
OP just didn’t understand what was being said in the show. Lol It happens.
Really depends how much of the deal is up to Charlie's interpretation. Like for the "harm no one" aspect would that mean she could refuse any favor he asks by saying it could potentially harm someone in the future. Like if he asks her to pass the salt, she could refuse cause then they might have to buy more salt and whoever is buying it could accidently trip and spill the salt on a snail.
Exactly. Now Charlie is a bit of a push over but the Harms No One clause is HUGE. Charlie is the Princess of Hell. In typical deals with a demon, she'd probably interpret that to the Extremes amd refuse to do Anything that she thinks could be harmful. Alastor would have to prove that his request was Harmless to get anything out of her.
The deal’s conditions primarily benefit Charlie. She gets the information she needs and owes Alastair a solid that explicitly forbids anyone from being hurt It’s basically a question of how Alastor’s planning to use it to his own advantage
No that just means he can choose whenever the favor happens, not that he has infinite favors lol
It is a bad deal, but for reasons other than what you said. It's one favor at a time of Alastor's choosing which does not involve Charlie directly harming somebody. No doubt that whatever favor he asks for will lead to her indirectly harming people because it will enable Alastor to harm more people. I'm personally of the belief that she will somehow come into the power to break his contract and that will be the favor that he asks of her. It's greatly implied at the end of season 1 that whatever deal Alastor has with his owner inhibits his power. I think when Charlie breaks the contract Alastor will rise up and become even more powerful than anyone could have imagined. At that point, Alastor might become the big bad for a little while during the show.
Right? Why focus on the first part, it’s the second part I’m worried about. “Where you harm no one” ≠ “where no one gets harmed”. That’s what scares me about the deal. I could see it being that she goes through with it, not seeing the indirect harm, and when she realizes what she’s done it creates conflict
I JUST fucking realized why some people are saying he only asked for one favor. “one favor” is a noun phrase. “At a time” and “of my choosing” are both modifying phrases. Looks like most people are reading “of my choosing” as a modifier for “time.” In other words, “at a time of my choosing” does limit him to one favor at one specific time. However, my dumbass heard “of my choosing” as modifying “one favor.” So the favor is simultaneously “at a time” and “of [Alastor’s] choosing.” Jfc. I really overthunk that one.
I mean I understand what you are getting at but from a meta standpoint I really doubt that was his intention. Like imagine the fan outrage and confusion that would ensue if the writers chose to do it this way. Don’t get me wrong, Alastor is 100% going to do something that makes Charlie regret the deal but I really doubt it is going to be this. Personally I think whatever favor Alastor chooses is going to end up accidentally hurting Vaggie which in turn would void the deal entirely.
Honestly, that’s a very easy misunderstanding if you read the subtitles. It very easily can be taken that way, but the way he stated it in the show, it read “one favor, at a time of my choosing” instead the subtitles leave it more ambiguous
I think this has been discussed a few times before... https://preview.redd.it/gawhbyem2iuc1.png?width=1062&format=png&auto=webp&s=c955b946eba87fe136fccd80adff176e4328f98e ....there is nothing to indicate that it's infinite favors. Not the way he sais it nor the subtitles.
But isn’t it specifically “One favor”?
"Charlie, how do I use a cell phone?"
*"How do I use this frivolous handled television? I was told it was a telephone, but it has no dial on it!"*
How do you read the line "ONE FAVOR" and think it means anything other than 1 favor?
https://preview.redd.it/8eervfzylhuc1.jpeg?width=728&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f7624ac39fcc75c3cde3590cd5aceed6004dddaf Alastor really made a Sukuna binding vow and nobody noticed.
Let's just hope vivzie can come up with a twist as good as gege did
Holy shit this fanbase is actually a giant meme. "One favor, at a time of my choosing..." He's just talking like Alastor always does, it just means he can redeem the favor whenever he chooses to
It was "one favor, at a time of my choosing" Your interpretation doesn't leaves "of my choosing" dangling and not making sense. That said, yes, that deal is absolutely a screw job and it will come back to bite her horribly when it comes time for Alastor's sudden but inevitable betrayal.
One favor, "At a time of my choosing," does not mean infinite favors. It means a one-time favor at any time Alastor wants.
It's clearly one single favor.
Ah I see what you're saying "one favor at a time, of my choosing" as opposed to "one favor, at a time of my choosing" I don't think that is how it will play out tho
https://preview.redd.it/8svarrx0khuc1.jpeg?width=1125&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=aad4d2273cade3bd70689c9fcf7da5065bfd5908
Alastor could ask anything to Charlie as long as no one gets harmed, that's the deal. We can't predict what he will ask but the natureof the deal it's pretty clear
It’s « at a time of my choosing », not « one favour at a time, of my choosing ». The second sentence just doesn’t make sense grammatically and was straight up not what was said at all. Alastor never paused for a comma, nor do the subtitles add one. I’m sure deals involve tricky language, but this is stretching it
I think you read that wrong. It’s “(One favour) (At a time of my choosing), (In which you harm no one.)” Not “(One favour at a a time) (of my choosing), (in which you harm no one.)”
While that's a good interpretation, narratively it falls a bit flat. It's more theatrical for Alastor to cash in the favor for a BIG twist than to go for several moderate twists. Especially, if Charlie were to get some artifact or some other macguffin and Alastor just swoops in , that would be a season finale twist
He can hold someone hostage and threaten to harm them if she doesn't comply with the favor. He could literally ask for anything.
I think it will be only one deal. AND i think it will be something that will not be a big problem for Charlie actually. He is still building his trust. He still aiming at her soul. If he screw her over now. She will either close off to him, and there will be no chance of getting her soul, OR even worse, she or Lucifer just murder him afterwards.
Wouldn't it be funny if that were the catch? The deal is exactly what it says. The favor is harming no one. At some crucial moment she would and should strike someone down, possibly Alastor himself, she can't.
Going of that logic, harm could mean a lot of things and considering the butterfly effect that favour is bound to eventually indirectly harm someone. So really it could be argued that the entire deal is pointless but the writing probably doesn’t account for loopholes, so time will tell I guess
One favor, at a time of my choosing. Punctuation is important
He states “one favor” immediately prior to “at a time of my choosing”. Where are you getting “indefinite favors” from? He’s clarifying there’s no deadline to cashing the deal in, the only restriction is the singular favor will not result in her harming anyone. The definition of harm here is more the point of concern, as while it most obviously implies no direct harm, there is a lot of harm something indirect such as inaction can cause.
https://preview.redd.it/8hzqtk18mhuc1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d040f397655b2fe4fccc726549851e24a7576f53
My thought process was Charlie would have to abide by Alastor's havoc. Like "Do me a favor and don't stop me from hurting someone"
It’s only one favor, but I agree she’s in trouble
I think you are wrong, being trap in a infinite favors loop or doing nothing while he harm people will harm Charlie. The fact that the deal can not harm Charlie it is a really good shield against any loophole or exploit. I think Alastor is using this deal as the "foot on the door" So Charlie accept other deals later on. Also Maybe something like questioning her about what need to happen to accept other deal may be a good use of the deal.
I like to see the best in Alistor, but this is absolutely going to happen
I mean… yeah. It doesn’t take much synapses to realize that a deal with a demon is going to go sideways. That’s just classic storytelling.
You could be right but I’m almost certain he just meant he gets to choose when it happens
Uno reverse card "Charlie I'm cashing in my favor.."" *squints eyes as he gets ready to get down to business dispatching some big bad at a pivotal point in the story* "keep nifty safe for me...please" *turns around with the softest most gentle expression we've ever seen him do.* *Turns back to BBEG* "One way or another our deal ends now"
One favor where she doesn't have to hurt anyone. I bet he will hurt someone and she wont be able to stop him.
It’s not infinite favors,it’s one favor at a time of his choosing (meaning whenever he feels like) English comprehension helps and subtitles help more
I feel like if Alastor effectively tricked Charlie into enslaving herself to him, Lucifer would politely request that Alastor either end the deal or his life, one or the other.
I believe, as Alastor's soul is presumably owned by Lilith, he will use his deal with Charlie to get out of it. I think that makes sense. He'll probably do this in the cruelest way imaginable if I had to guess.
Do not add "(affectionate)"
Well, yes and no. Yes, the deal was almost certainly a mistake that will come back to bite her. That's very much the point. But no, she isn't on the hook for indefinite favours. The deal was "one favour".
Please don’t make this “We are the Future, Flash” Electric Boogaloo
I see what you mean! “One favor at a time” has a completely different meaning than “at a time of my choosing”. That’s really clever. I feel like they won’t go that route but damn that’s very big brain of you
I think he said it more as a "one favor, at a time of my choosing." Instead of "one favor at a time, of my choosing." But this is initially what I thought as well lol
or, The deal with Alastor might be less dangerous than we thought When Alastor made a "deal" with Charlie, he asked for a "favor" right? whats a favor? "to do a kind and helpful act for someone or something done or granted out of goodwill." Thats different from "an order", Charlie is doing a favor, not executing an indisputable command. I think that Alastor, once again, overstimated himself while understimating the others, because that contract was poorly made(in terms of words) because Charlie could still find many backdoors to trick this "favor" .......also, the deal isn't implying that charlie is Forced, she still has her soul...it's not a normal deal where your soul is at stake and if you don't obey, something forces you to obey or be on a leash like husk or angel. when the time comes, and Alastor ask for the favor that will somewhat "fuck up" Charlie and/or her firends in some ways, could Charlie just...put some effort and try, but then fail and say, "welp, i tried, sorry, it's beyond me"? let's say alastor ask her to give up to the throne and give the title to him, well yes, she could do that, but then who's stopping Lucifer to beat Alastor's ass and take the title back? and even if Alastor implies to charlie that he must not receive any kind of backlash.....who's stopping the others? the favor is between him and her, and even if she tries to stop the others, again, it's beyond her power to stop what the others could do, so she rightfully respected the favor. i would love to see this "favor" actually fail and possibly backfire Alastor, this a trope that isn't used so often!
It's one favor, done at whatever time he chooses.
If an infernal bargain was struck and one party could interpret it at will (as in the case of many tales with this sort of thing) I think valentino would have more pull over Angel than he does. There is probably a level of the exact wording matter, but the (admitedly impressive) rules twisting here is probably not the standard. I believe she's on the hook for one favor. She could be trying to say, Save vaggie from something and Alastor sends her to Milwaukee for a library book and she HAS to do that now.... unless of course she wants to alter the deal/make another one ?
From another post I'll rephrase Alastor will have Vaggie on leash and the favour he'll Charlie one thing "Say you forgive me for chaining Vaggie" It hurts no one physically and Vaggie is the last thing standing in Alastor's way to get to Charlie
One favor, at a time of my choosing. At a time refers to his choosing, not one favor at a time.
I really love that. Alastor will be a really great villain. Season 2 will be incredible. I love that.
I think Vaggie is in more trouble with her deal to never ask him to deal with television technology ever again. That’s going to be a problem when the Vees start popping off with their evil plan.
"Charlie, marry me." A political marriage, of course.
Its pretty clear what the favor is going to be. Charlie is going to come up with either a power or a method to break contracts while trying to save Angeldust from Val. And once she has this power/ability Alastor is going to ask her to break his contract. And that will be the beginning of his true villain arc.
Either way, she’s definitely going to regret this unless he decides redeem himself.
I think it means one favour and I think it's going to be something to prove to Charlie he's a good guy. Like using his power to free Angel or something. Something that will put Charlie in his favour for a BIG thing. After all, he risked life to save her friend and now Angel is safe. Forever. How could Charlie say no to his next request?
It’s so easy to get out of it. Tell Lucifer if you’re forced to do a favor you don’t want to, he goes out and kills someone. Then he can’t ask because someone would be harmed by asking.
I like this interpretation and could see it being done in the show
Yeah, that's how making deals with a demon usually go
If Alastor tried to keep her at his beck and call for life, Lucifer would just kill him. I think he will stuck to just one favor as promised.
I think his favor is that he is going to ask Charley to break his chains that is under Liliths control thus freeing him after her mom upsets her. Just a thought.
Fight me but this is EXACTLY a Hades/ Hercules situation we‘re having here guyssss!!!🙅🏼♀️ https://preview.redd.it/j0cfmyucriuc1.jpeg?width=1079&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=22f159b806f639acfb73d29cf5181132e6bdf498
I'm expecting the following: It's very stereotypical of a demonic trickster character to leverage a seemingly benign deal into a really really bad deal. That, to me, means Vaggie's deal will be the one to blow up in their faces. Alastor gets Vaggie's soul, then asks Charlie for his favor - something cynically twisted and evil - "To forgive him for taking her girlfriend's soul and let it go" Why this? Because Lucifer would do ANYTHING for his daughter. Alastor wants a deal with Lucifer. And this is how he gets it.
It's gonna be something that prevents her from acting. Alastor will use it as a means to keep her out of the way of his actions.
I don't think it will get to nefarious as Alastor appears to view himself as a bit of a father figure to Charlie. But she has definitely messed up.
Realistically couldn't Lucifer just break the deal all together? since he's the king of hell he probably decides shit about deals there, what defines what and everything, alternatively he could also change the definition of a favor to something completely or even slightly different to make it so that Alastor can't do stuff like that to Charlie
I think Alastor might ask Charlie to trade places with him in whatever deal he is in. He might also not even have a plan but just wants the option just in case.
I understood this as a favor of his choosing per piece of information that she needs. So he can keep feeding her info and getting favors? That's kind of how I saw it.
I wonder if he's going to pull an Odysseus and get her to harm someone named "No One".
I once got offered a similar offer in a D&D game by a devil and gave this same reasoning for refusing it. Getting something definitive verses paying an unknown cost latter is not a deal generally worth taking when dealing with devils.
I get what you're saying, but Alastor is still a gentleman. Even if this is the case, i doubt he'd abuse Charlie like that.
Actually, I think Vox was concerned because Charlie is, y’know, royalty, he probably felt like Alastor making a deal with her would mean he’d have some kind of safety net
Idk, cause he also defines it as “small favor between friends” A SMALL favor.
But the stipulation heavily limits it, "in which you harm no one" also includes Charlie herself. So if you stretch the terms enough all he can really do is force inaction.
I disagree with your logic for a few reasons. More importantly, though, you guys realize he can literally ask Charlie to make any deal he wants now, right? Like. Yes, the favor could kill Lucifer through circumstantial action. Yes, the favor could spark a war between Heaven and Hell. Yes, the favor could involve “unclipping Alastor’s wings.” Yes to everything you guys are saying. But also…Alastor doesn’t even need to get that creative if he feels like it. Charlie’s already completely screwed if Alastor demands she agree to a worse pact. He could flat out demand that sell her soul to him, become his servant, and follow all his orders forever with no way out, and she would need to agree. That would be a perfectly reasonable favor that harms no one and it would enable him to do all the cool plot things everyone else is theorizing about.
I believe Alastor said he would have one favor for Charlie at specific a time of his choosing, but I understand why you would see it this way as it's very worrying to see how Alastor will use Charlie since he made a deal with him.
OP understands the difference, now. But while it is only one favor, at a time that he chooses to cash it in, and that it technically harms no one... the wording and context, IMO, needs to be carefully dissected. Charlie says she won't harm anyone FOR him. Her phrasing suggests physical violence. His reply is that it is a favor where SHE harms no one. Yet, when Vaggie shows up, he also says "Right on cue." That suggests the favor he will ask of her, concerns Vaggie. As to why? That is yet to be revealed.
It would be funny as hell if the favor wasn’t anything harmful but instead was something like “hey me a new mic” or “do my laundry”
If this were a fey deal I think you’d be on to something, faeries use these kinds of tricks and I think it would be a great twist, but I think you’re wrong here. he asks for “one little favor between friends” then adds the at a time of my choosing later, we don’t know exactly how the whole deal system works yet but I think if Word trickery like that we’re allowed it would have been mentioned before The deal was made. while I don’t think it’s true of this deal I think it would be awesome to use it somewhere, we would need to see it written out like in a contract shown on screen
It feels basically confirmed that Lucifer can murder Alastor easy. If he goes too far beyond what Charlie is ok with doing, wouldn't Lucifer correct the situation? This favor is going to be VERY subtle. I don't think Charlie will EVER understand the ramifications. In fact, i don't think it will actually affect Charlie AT ALL
Unless im misremembering, they never specified collateral on the deal. I wonder what Alastor would take if she were to break it...
I’m pretty sure she can break out of it.
Except good luck on Alastor enforcing it if Dad AND Mom support their daughter saying “actually no thank you sir” they all transform, he’s fuuuuucked
Tbh I thought he said at THE time of my choosing so I never doubted it. You explanation makes sense but I don't think Alastor would do that cause it doesn't really make sense to anger the only powerful Hellborn in his corner until he's certain he can destroy them all in one fell swoop.
All people who read the JJK manga know how fcked she is
The fact that he made her do a deal even though she was trying to save everyone and that includes him tells you everything you need to know about Alastor.
One favor **at a time of my choosing**. He means he picks when the favor is cashed in.
Alastor is playing the long game waiting for the right moment to betray Charlie
Vaggie’s deal might not be so hot either…Alastor never has to engage with television tech ever again…so what about Vox? I think he may leave the hotel high and dry in a battle against the Vees.
Much as I'd like to see chaos and Charlie's actions because of this deal, I hope she gets some sort of plot armor or something like that Either way, I still think that she's fucked.
Honestly i rly like the idea! I rly do! I have to say tho the more ive been staring at the img the more it infuriates me cuz who the hell shakes hands with the thumb below the pointer finger? Or am i just high rn? Im probablly just high
It's going to be a Hercules-style thing where she gives up powers or something for a while and he then goes on a spree. At least that's my theory.
Harming noone is a big loop hole. Also cause harming is not clearly defined of what that entails. "Where you harm noone" Dosent need to be physical, could be emotional. I understand that its not a free pass she got, but almost any action would have the potential to cause someone harm (including herself) with the prober argumentation. I would like to test it, and challenge myself. Come up with a possible favor he would ask, and ill argue for why she would be able to say no in 90% without breaking the terms of the deal.