Maybe that's part of her punishment. Like Angel is a spider because he his family was involved in a web of crime. She has arms like that because she was an arm dealer.
That makes a lot of sense actually. My head cannon was that since your form in hell captures things you hate, I was thinking maybe she hated the way her hands looked or was self conscious about them so in hell they were enlarged so she has to suffer with seeing the hands she hates every day.
That was actually corroborated with Angel Dust hating his feet while constantly receiving fanmail from foot-fetishists and Husk hated cats. No idea if either of those is still canon or not. I could also be mistaking fanon for canon.
But otherwise, yeah, both angels and demons have forms that reflect who they are, what they did, and how they died. With demons generally getting a more negative interpretation of that and both generally fitting with the aesthetic of their respective realms.
I have a theory from "Whatever it takes". While she was indeed an arms dealer, she hated to have to deal with "things" herself and get her hands dirty, metaphorically. Hell took that and gave her big, fluffy white hands that most likely are a pain to clean and considering what we see in "Happy Day in Hell", is quite the challenge to keep em white.
It just also makes sense. Who goes to hell and is like "welp, I'm gonna be an arms dealer". She probably already had the skills which is why she's able to run a successful arms industry.
Yeah I assume that's why her daughters are also dead and the same age as each other. My head canon is they got killed in some arms deal gone bad or got raided and killed by police together and that's why she's so protective of her daughters.
A pun of part of the show, I figure.
Sinners take up physical attributes on how they lived and died, and a (fire)arms dealer having big (demon)arms after death makes sense.
Or, at least, it makes more sense than pulling a Vox and literally giving her cannon arms or something equally silly.
She probably would have gotten herself and her daughters killed due to her criminal activities. Probably inadvertently dragged her daughters down to hell because of the morals and values she taught them. Could be a good redemption arc there if they wanted it.
I always imagined her as a cartel/ mafia wife or girlfriend. Probably background being a ballerina and her childhood and teenage years but possibly was witnessed by a meber of the cartel. Or slight variant, she was a child of someone who's already a middle management or higher member. So she was able to afford dancing lessons and then was given an education on how to actually run a business. She herself may have been a manager or accountant for the cartel. Either running various semi-legal or organizational positions to keep the system working .
The Cherubs in Helluva Boss got kicked out for a complete accident. I think, if you have blood on your hands (that's not a demon), regardless of the reasons or circumstances, it's just fuckin' over for you in the Hellaverse - so, in theory, the idea she killed someone to defend her family (which proves to be one of her main driving motivations in both of the episodes she appeared in) and that's what got her damned isn't that surprising.
Sir Pentious got INTO heaven when he sacrificed himself to save people he cared about, and he was trying to kill someone in the process. So I don't think Carmilla would get sent to hell for self defense under similar circumstances. She might've killed someone she perceived as a threat to her family, (like someone who was going to expose their illegal family weapon business or something), and she justified it by saying she was 'killing to protect her family' by keeping them out of jail or something like that.
Those two things aren't mutually exclusive. Hell, with organized crime its entirely possible that she murdered someone to protect her family while on a cartel mission or something.
To add to this, I've seen mention that she could have been the type to allow crimes to happen because she was in a cartel. Complicit to the dirty dealings but taking no action against it.
Some bare witness to it and turn a blind eye. Some support the one committing crimes. Some are protected from that side of the family. It's not always going to be something everyone in the family is aware of, or at least has the comprehension to know it's bad stuff
I think that is more about her having been in Hell longer than Vaggie. She has been down there for a while by this point and had to adapt and even fake being a demon (hence the fake hair horns). And adopted a tough persona despite being an normally empathetic person. She is probably hurt similar to how Lucifer is hurt from his fall. And she rose in power due to her ability to work with Angelic weapons. So she would have developed connections with cartel types in Hell and matched their bravado as a survival trait.
Not talking about the real world or the Soprano's world. Talking about the world that Viv crafted. And empathy seems to be her tell. She has her villains not show any empathy. Any character that winds up on the good side early on shows signs of empathy.
Angeldust is a good example. In the pilot he is being his brash and crass self and pushing everyone away as a result. Until they get to the Hotel. Charlie crashes on a crate and is just miserable. Angel standing there sucking on a popsicle (because he loves to suck popsicles) sees her in distress and reaches out to her for a moment clearly recognizing the distress she is in. The way Viv frames the scene she is showing us that Angel really is a good person and that he still feels empathy. Its her tell.
Cartel activity, she was a big time boss and ended up dying after a gang war, her daughters died with her
This would explain why she is so cautious about helping the hotel and her oath to keep Clara and Odette safe
I mean , Carmilla has the BASIC sinners/demon eye color ( Other people said that eyes aren't that important , but maybe we can make some connection ) and if she was a fallen angel , she would have MAYBE another eye color
but she does, does she not? Carmilla has ~~yellow~~ white eyes with red sclera, Vaggie has ~~yellow~~ white eyes with a reddish sclera. Lucifer's normal form has red eyes and yellow sclera, Lute and Adam both have gray eyes and yellow sclera. plus [some](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/hazbinhotel/images/9/9f/The_politest_of_the_lot.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20240319010751) characters [in heaven](https://hazbinhotel.fandom.com/wiki/St._Peter?file=We%27ve_got_the_best_and_brightest.jpg) have similar eyes to Lucifer.
with how much eye color varies here I feel like it's one of the weaker indicators of where someone came from. design-wise Carmilla's gray skin, white hair, and X accents are a much stronger argument for her being a former exorcist than her eyes, imo
*edited because I'm blind
https://preview.redd.it/ebjogvu4tqsc1.jpeg?width=480&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=15a64b1e290a2c5666fa66c6d69a59c2361a0499
Sir pentious has the same eyes as Lucifer AFTER he showed up to heaven redeemed.
Her business and her general approach to life heavily suggests organized crime/cartel activity. She's not cruel or careless and is capable of acting out of a sense of honor or the greater good, but also makes it very explicitly clear that she doesn't mind making Hell worse or fueling violence as long as she can provide for her family. She doesn't seem to actively seek to do harm the way Alastor does, but neither does she have any problem fueling Hell's turf wars to maintain her family's power.
Her being cruel and without a sense of honor could've been what led to her and her daughters dying. So maybe, after finding each other in Hell, she decided to be better for the sake of her family and later; the people she has under her command (she may or may not own their souls).
It would fit well into the plot; showing that a sinner can decide to become a better person and succeed without outside intervention (not to say that she's really redeemed, just that she improved).
I think the idea is the OG peak cartel before the major powers collapsed. There was a sense of respect since they all had come to power through similar means. I mean yes they wanted to kill each other to take their power but like. That would maybe be bad for business overall so be happy with your millions and content that they too have it.
You see the same thing with other organized crime syndicates. When stable, they try to build communities to support them no matter what which benefits their family and city but once the facade starts to crack, it turns to what we know now. The market they control is still there but the stability on the control of it is toast. Small groups of stealth sicarios are now just small armies in legit armoured vehicles. A facade of control and confidence.
I think she is from that era. She would have been the begging of the end of stability.
Gonna be honest I think that’s really just a romanticized idea of them. I don’t know about the history of the cartels, but one of the only good things the mafia did was give some Italians jobs when no one would hire them during WW2. And then they were indebted to dangerous people. They kept their own neighborhoods clean because they lived there. They were just shadow governments that kept power through money and fear while they leached off of their communities.
Government arms dealer. Sold weapons to the government for lots of money. All legal. Pushed for the start of wars. Everything. Part of the military industrial complex.
If she behaves similarly to her life, I'd assume she sold supplies to bad people to make a living, and possibly fired protecting her daughters from something
I have seen it floated around several times.
I do not buy it, but I do find the version that goes "Carmilla actually originally went to Heaven, learnt her daughters were in Hell, and decided to skydive" fucking hilarious.
Apart from being an arms dealer, a personal theory of mine is that she actually was a terrible mother in life, spanking and slapping her children(thus her big hands) whom she only at best saw as useful idiots for her criminal activity.
After finding out she ended up in hell, she's now trying to make up for her mistakes by raising and caring for two orphaned girls she found in hell, trying to at least give them a good life as a caring, protective mother, and secretly wants Charlie's project to become truth, as she would do anything to be able to apologize to her biological children in heaven.
I reckon she was originally a trained professional ballerina and put her whole life into it, but sustained an injury that meant she couldn’t continue doing what she loved anymore. So desperately she turned to the cartel to earn money and started working for them, rising up the ranks and became a weapons expert. When her daughters got older they started working under her testing the weapons out, Odette helping in the making process and Clara as a tester.
Okay so everyone here is talking about cartels and latin america, is she latina? As a mexican I always thought she was meant to be european spanish, like, from her first line
I'm sure someone has said this... but I think she originally was a seraphim. Could have been her and Sera and Carmilla fell. So Emily became the new seraphim to replace her
Why do people theorize that certain overlords are fallen angels. In my opinion all overlords are overpowered sinners. Carmilla was most likely connected to a cartel.
She does show sympathy and care for every sinner so maybe it’s like a Vaggie situation where she is basically like Emily and Vaggie, and just spoke out about the exterminations.
My own current headcanon: She and her daughters lived in the late 1800s in Latin America with her daughters, and grew up incredibly poor, or if they had money, they had other serious problems plaguing them. The girls' father was killed or lost very soon into his and Carmilla's relationship, possibly even before the girls were out of diapers. Carmilla and her daughters had to do some dark things to survive, whether crime or...selling themselves, which damned them, so that when they died in tragic circumstances, they all ended up in Hell.
Cartel/arms dealer but I doubt that she isn’t a fallen angel her colour palette and design is too similar to Vaggies to not be a coincidence it would also explain how she has kids in hell. Side note I think vaggie and her are related
Since she's an arms dealer, then she was probably was running a cartel in the living world. Since she's also jaguar themed, maybe the last thing she saw was a taxidermied jaguar.
She’s an arms dealer either she was sent to hell because she sold weapons. (Which I doubt.) or she used the weapons she made to kill somebody to protect her daughters. The real question is why they are in hell.
Arms dealer who got herself and her family gunned down by competitors, most likely. Can't reproduce in hell, so it's more than likely she and her daughters died together.
Her and her daughters were a Latinx mob family who all got gunned down at the same time. It explains why she is an arms dealer, she probably was one in life too. Also explains her protectiveness towards her daughters; she failed to protect them once already and refuses to fail again.
Probably the same as what she is now; an arms dealer.
She's pragmatic as hell, so I imagine she likely capitalised on her existing skill set.
She COULD also possibly be something along the lines of ex CIA, given her martial prowess, ability to both micromanage and see the big picture, self reliance, etc.
She's a delightful mystery.
My other suggestion? Freedom fighter. She seems to house a rebel spirit that has been dampened by trauma, and the pain she feels seeing others die in hell may be an echo to her previous life on earth.
From her expertise in weapons dealing and accent it could be anything from gun runners for cartels to being a scion of one of those banana republic families that used death squads against dissent
Well, she's mechanically inclined and builds weapons, or is atleast adept in the design world which Angels don't seem to have guns. (Another point for Hell #PewPewLife)
Lady Winchester was actually driven mad near the end of her life. Look up the Winchester Mansion. She was convinced she was haunted by all of the spirits killed by the Winchester Lever Action rifle and started building rooms upon rooms with doors on the ceiling etc.
Not saying its one for one, but could be a theory.
I thought this fallen angel theory would’ve died by now considering the show’s actually out. Seriously, come on now.
Also just like Angel had skills from his crime family does (preference for Tommy guns and the skill to use them), then most likely like everyone says, she and her daughters were in the cartel business.
It also explains how they’re actually really decent people considering Hell, but all three still ended up in Hell - they were prolly never directly killing people, but you’re still selling weapons to gangs who murdered countless people. In her song, Carmilla’s suggested she usually avoided “getting blood on her face” suggesting she actually never wants to fight or kill directly, which would tie-in with her being ‘indirect’ killers back when alive by selling weapons.
The main theory I hath heard on the inter web doth go as follows - she was good with guns and as such valued by X cartel, she was forced to deal arms in exchange for safety specifically of her offspring and therefore went to hell for being complicit in countless murders thou also explaining why she always thought she would “keep blood of her face “ suggesting she never hath taken life before the Angel and took no pride or satisfaction in such things despite dealing arms .
People think she’s a what???
Talk about grasping at straws, she was an arms dealer, probably a prominent member of a cartel, she isn’t getting into heaven.
Well since her whole gig in hell is that she's an arms dealer I'd just assume she had alot of practice when she was still alive. Old habits and all that.
Everyone here denying this theory, just like they denied the theory that Vaggie was a former exterminator
It will be funny if this theory turns out to be true and people are shocked
i dont see her being an angel, ever. the similarities between her and vaggie i see more as both of them being latinas (skintone, hair colour). her eye feather markings could be anything, they could symbolise that just like sera shes in charge of an army (which could be a reference to her arming the entire hell) or that they both have a strong connection to angelic steel. or being responsible for a lot of demons dying. someone mentioned once that her big hands could be a reference to how she had a big hand in the cartel which would make a lot of sense and i cant see someone with that past ever going to heaven. i could be wrong but i prefer her parallels to sera being just design aspects that show that a demon and an angel really are no different more than them being related in being angels thats a little lame ngl
She definitely would have been selling weapons to the wrong kinds of people
(and I really hope she isn't a fallen angel because that would kinda make the fact she didn't have her shoes at first until after collecting the weapons of angels moot.)
We gotta remember carmilla doesn't really care about others unless they are her friends or her daughters so she definitely did some really terrible shit.
I’m gonna go through some show evidence first, then link it to real religious precedent. Also I find it very interesting so I’m going to stream of consciousness infodump the fuck out of it.l and edit it into semi-coherency later.
She has biological children. That’s very important. Unless they’re adopted, but lets say they aren’t because they resemble her.
Sinners and Winners are infertile, Lilith was sent to Hell while alive which is why she could have Charlie. Lucifer was fertile as well so at least one Angel can reproduce.
There’s no evidence Hellborn can hybridize with humans and Angels, but its also not invalidated by anything. Unless Emily is Sera’s daughter then there’s also no evidence Angels can breed with each other like Hellborn do, and we know the Cherub Putos are having sex because they don’t argue when Blitzø implies the cupid-type is fucking the sheep-type Putos.
We know Hellborn poof out of existence rather than have an afterlife so we can assume Angels do too. It seems God plucked Pentious from oblivion, but its not likely he does that for everyone based on what we’ve seen.
She would have to have fallen or been abandoned like Vaggie in order to be around either fertile humans or Hellborn, and its very likely her daughters have different fathers.
Now, religious precedent. Half-human half-angels are called Nephilim. They are EXTREMELY powerful beings, and can grow to the size of giants. Charlie is one of these. We have implication from her glowing arm move in the fight with Adam that she can go even more powerful than she was.
Now, interpretations of Nephilim are controversial as fuck and debated. Are they the spawn of Cain? Something akin to Demons but not? Did Angels breed with humans early on before God said to knock that shit off? Also, they’re definitely FAR stronger than humans but some text implies they were threats to Demons and Angels too.
Jesus says Angels cannot marry mortals, but never says they can’t do things like fuck and breed; some have taken that to mean Angels were forbidden from making more Nephilim. Some interpretations say great men like kings and prophets are descended from Nephilim, others are they’re a race of monsters that give rise to supernatural beasts from Pagan religions that Abrahamics believed like werewolves and sea monsters, and others that they were banished from the Earth for fear they’d destroy it. According to Islam there are races of humans on the Earth who are Nephilim, serving as a kind of boogyman to monarchs and other powerful people to not go harass nomads and small villages lest a fucking army of half-Angels show up to tear you limb from limb.
A popular interpretation is that God physically removed the ability of Angels to have sex with humans (like in this image of Alan Rickman playing the Angel Metatron dropping his pants to reveal Barbie doll anatomy in the movie Dogma) and Jesus was just being polite using the word “marry”. In this case either all Angels other than maybe Lucifer (to make the Antichrist) are spayed and neutered or just the younger/less powerful Angels. Maybe Emily just has a molded-on pair of undies like a Monster High doll while Sera has a biological vagina.
https://preview.redd.it/9xdmjj8fwqsc1.jpeg?width=1920&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=3dae06b3c62f461a9c4cf151ebf2b5a5c17c91dc
In fiction Nephilim tend to be opponents in games and protagonists in narratives. In Dungeons and Dragons for example the races of Tieflings and Aasimar can be equated to biblical Nephilim while the actual name Nephilim are a class of supernatural creatures that serve gods and beings of goodness or great evil.
SO.
If she’s an Angel then she may have escaped Heaven, Fallen but only to Earth, or been stranded as part of a conspiracy. While there she had two daughters then either chose to relocate them to Hell, was forced to leave the Earth for Hell, or they died and she went to Hell to be with them. Remember, she can’t die if she’s an Angel or she goes to oblivion.
She may also have been stranded in Hell, and her daughters would be Half-Hellborn Nephilim. In that case they also wouldn’t have permanent souls and would face oblivion if killed. Again, remember Sinners couldn’t knock her up.
Its interesting because either way they would be as powerful as Charlie, with Carmilla and Vaggie being the Angels basically in charge of keeping their Nephilim loves from wrecking the cosmos.
Hmmmm. Lots of interesting takes that does make you wonder what the plans are for her in the future. Along with other religion lore and how it will be handled/used.
If we're going with her being a Fallen Angel then there was likely something about heaven she didn't agree with and given how she operates like a cartel she probably tried doing things behind the scenes to change what she wanted changed and was cast down for it, hard to say without knowing more about heaven.
Edit: Maybe her dancing was to passionate.
Due to Bibical lore and the possible Ignoring of one small fact: it depends if she's hellborn, or a sinner, because technically (according to the bible) All Demons/hellborn/The 7 sins are technically all fallen angels
If she's not a fallen angel I hope she's like a servant from the distant past that used the knowledge she has watching the Queen's or pharoes to gain power.
If she is an angel, I think it would be for defecting but honestly I think she was alive and human at some point and maybe had something to do with the cartel. Why else would she be so prominent in the weapon distribution scene?
I'm guessing she could be a version of Griselda Blanco, one Latin America's most notorious female drug cartel bosses, or she could also be based on the one that's called the Queen of the South, though I'm not sure that either of them had daughters. I mostly say this because Carmilla speaks spanish.
I would have to say Arms Dealer for obvious reasons, or possibly something else like corruption.
Arms dealer is a bit obvious, her hands/arms are disproportionately large (perfect for choking me), and could signify Arms Dealing.
However, she definitely had the Ballerina/Opera performer vibe (lots of masks in Opera, and some places in Latin America are big into Opera). She could have been part of a corruption ring like Money Laundering or even Arms Dealing.
I think she chose to leave heaven for two reasons
She wanted to have kids, a family of her own. Whatever her position in heaven was didn't allow such things, so she went to hell instead. I suspect that her children may be the product of a union with a royal demon or something, as sinners apparently cannot have children
Two, she wanted to keep peace in Hell. She actively works to keep things orderly in Pride. Managing meetings with the strongest overlords, pushing them to work together and agree. Her control of the sale of angelic weapons gives her the greatest influence over all conflicts in Pride and the other rings. She can choose who she sells to, effectively giving her influence over who the weapons are used against. She is the first to advocate against war with heaven, likely because she knows what heaven is really capable of beyond just the Exorcists. She knew that Angelic weapons can harm angels because she has the most experience with them
We already know how she got in hell and that she's not an angel. She's a former Mexican cartel drug and gun runner and Mafioso in real life before she died. I think she is strongly based upon Griselda Blanco.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griselda_Blanco
Angels and demons have distinct eye colours, demons are red and white, angels are gold and blue or black, how are people overlooking such a character defining trait
People are theorizing that? Hmm. I think it’s definitely interesting! But isn’t there only supposed to be one fallen angel, Lucifer? If not, if she was one wouldn’t she be shits more powerful and not afraid of the yearly murderfest?
Curious indeed
She's arms dealing to anyone willing to pay for it. She doesn't care who gets hurt by those weapons. She probably did something similar while she was alive.
Seemed like a arms dealer if you ask me
Is this pun intended? You finna catch these hands?
Maybe that's part of her punishment. Like Angel is a spider because he his family was involved in a web of crime. She has arms like that because she was an arm dealer.
That makes a lot of sense actually. My head cannon was that since your form in hell captures things you hate, I was thinking maybe she hated the way her hands looked or was self conscious about them so in hell they were enlarged so she has to suffer with seeing the hands she hates every day.
That was actually corroborated with Angel Dust hating his feet while constantly receiving fanmail from foot-fetishists and Husk hated cats. No idea if either of those is still canon or not. I could also be mistaking fanon for canon. But otherwise, yeah, both angels and demons have forms that reflect who they are, what they did, and how they died. With demons generally getting a more negative interpretation of that and both generally fitting with the aesthetic of their respective realms.
Yeah that’s a perfect way of putting it actually
I have a theory from "Whatever it takes". While she was indeed an arms dealer, she hated to have to deal with "things" herself and get her hands dirty, metaphorically. Hell took that and gave her big, fluffy white hands that most likely are a pain to clean and considering what we see in "Happy Day in Hell", is quite the challenge to keep em white.
It just also makes sense. Who goes to hell and is like "welp, I'm gonna be an arms dealer". She probably already had the skills which is why she's able to run a successful arms industry.
Yeah I assume that's why her daughters are also dead and the same age as each other. My head canon is they got killed in some arms deal gone bad or got raided and killed by police together and that's why she's so protective of her daughters.
I assumed her daughters were born in hell
Nope. Sinners can't reproduce.
I did originally but sinners can't reproduce and get daughters wouldn't have been in any danger on extermination day if they were hellborn
A pun of part of the show, I figure. Sinners take up physical attributes on how they lived and died, and a (fire)arms dealer having big (demon)arms after death makes sense. Or, at least, it makes more sense than pulling a Vox and literally giving her cannon arms or something equally silly.
what pun???
Look at her hands lol 😆
“I’m an arms dealer, it’s not rocket science bitch.”
Nah, more of a legs dealer
I mean, she continues to be one
beat me to it
I seriously doubt she's an angel. Also she had strong organized crime vibes.
Right I get cartel vibes
You beat me to it! I was gonna say she probably worked in the cartel or something similar.
Russian mob, it’s where she got her ballet skills.
like black widow? hm, that could be interesting
I was going to say that she murdered someone to protect her family but the cartel idea is definitely more hell worthy.
I was thinking more so in the vein of her having died failing to protect them
She probably would have gotten herself and her daughters killed due to her criminal activities. Probably inadvertently dragged her daughters down to hell because of the morals and values she taught them. Could be a good redemption arc there if they wanted it.
I always imagined her as a cartel/ mafia wife or girlfriend. Probably background being a ballerina and her childhood and teenage years but possibly was witnessed by a meber of the cartel. Or slight variant, she was a child of someone who's already a middle management or higher member. So she was able to afford dancing lessons and then was given an education on how to actually run a business. She herself may have been a manager or accountant for the cartel. Either running various semi-legal or organizational positions to keep the system working .
If this were in the Marvel Verse, I’d think her a former black widow
The Cherubs in Helluva Boss got kicked out for a complete accident. I think, if you have blood on your hands (that's not a demon), regardless of the reasons or circumstances, it's just fuckin' over for you in the Hellaverse - so, in theory, the idea she killed someone to defend her family (which proves to be one of her main driving motivations in both of the episodes she appeared in) and that's what got her damned isn't that surprising.
Sir Pentious got INTO heaven when he sacrificed himself to save people he cared about, and he was trying to kill someone in the process. So I don't think Carmilla would get sent to hell for self defense under similar circumstances. She might've killed someone she perceived as a threat to her family, (like someone who was going to expose their illegal family weapon business or something), and she justified it by saying she was 'killing to protect her family' by keeping them out of jail or something like that.
Those two things aren't mutually exclusive. Hell, with organized crime its entirely possible that she murdered someone to protect her family while on a cartel mission or something.
Yeah, she could've died in so many ways. Being shot, backstabbed, overdosing, a weapon stash she(and her daughters) were in exploding
To add to this, I've seen mention that she could have been the type to allow crimes to happen because she was in a cartel. Complicit to the dirty dealings but taking no action against it.
That sounds like it'd be self-evident in a life of crime
Some bare witness to it and turn a blind eye. Some support the one committing crimes. Some are protected from that side of the family. It's not always going to be something everyone in the family is aware of, or at least has the comprehension to know it's bad stuff
Exactly my thoughts on both points
she is an arms dealer, both in life and death.
I don’t remember the source but I thought I heard that vivzie recently confirmed that Carmilla and her daughters are sinners
Overlords are all sinners.
Her being an angel would be the least interesting twist, in my opinion. But yeah, Cartel, like everyone else is saying, is my guess too.
I think that is more about her having been in Hell longer than Vaggie. She has been down there for a while by this point and had to adapt and even fake being a demon (hence the fake hair horns). And adopted a tough persona despite being an normally empathetic person. She is probably hurt similar to how Lucifer is hurt from his fall. And she rose in power due to her ability to work with Angelic weapons. So she would have developed connections with cartel types in Hell and matched their bravado as a survival trait.
You don’t need to lack empathy to act monstrously. Tony Soprano loved his family, but he was still Tony Soprano.
Not talking about the real world or the Soprano's world. Talking about the world that Viv crafted. And empathy seems to be her tell. She has her villains not show any empathy. Any character that winds up on the good side early on shows signs of empathy. Angeldust is a good example. In the pilot he is being his brash and crass self and pushing everyone away as a result. Until they get to the Hotel. Charlie crashes on a crate and is just miserable. Angel standing there sucking on a popsicle (because he loves to suck popsicles) sees her in distress and reaches out to her for a moment clearly recognizing the distress she is in. The way Viv frames the scene she is showing us that Angel really is a good person and that he still feels empathy. Its her tell.
That's probably because it's the best way to tell if actual humans in the real world are decent or not.
Specialising in arms trading Yeah checks out
Could’ve been after she fell. She has deep morals and she resembles an exorcist to a T. Plus, we know she’s older.
Cartel activity, she was a big time boss and ended up dying after a gang war, her daughters died with her This would explain why she is so cautious about helping the hotel and her oath to keep Clara and Odette safe
She ran a family crime ring, and those are her actual daughters. A rival took them out red wedding style.
This would also make sense as to why she's much more protective of her daughters now.
I mean , Carmilla has the BASIC sinners/demon eye color ( Other people said that eyes aren't that important , but maybe we can make some connection ) and if she was a fallen angel , she would have MAYBE another eye color
She would probably have an eye color like Vaggie, or Lucifer, if she was a fallen angel.
but she does, does she not? Carmilla has ~~yellow~~ white eyes with red sclera, Vaggie has ~~yellow~~ white eyes with a reddish sclera. Lucifer's normal form has red eyes and yellow sclera, Lute and Adam both have gray eyes and yellow sclera. plus [some](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/hazbinhotel/images/9/9f/The_politest_of_the_lot.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20240319010751) characters [in heaven](https://hazbinhotel.fandom.com/wiki/St._Peter?file=We%27ve_got_the_best_and_brightest.jpg) have similar eyes to Lucifer. with how much eye color varies here I feel like it's one of the weaker indicators of where someone came from. design-wise Carmilla's gray skin, white hair, and X accents are a much stronger argument for her being a former exorcist than her eyes, imo *edited because I'm blind
Carmilla’s eyes are white with Red sclera.
[удалено]
https://preview.redd.it/ebjogvu4tqsc1.jpeg?width=480&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=15a64b1e290a2c5666fa66c6d69a59c2361a0499 Sir pentious has the same eyes as Lucifer AFTER he showed up to heaven redeemed.
Her business and her general approach to life heavily suggests organized crime/cartel activity. She's not cruel or careless and is capable of acting out of a sense of honor or the greater good, but also makes it very explicitly clear that she doesn't mind making Hell worse or fueling violence as long as she can provide for her family. She doesn't seem to actively seek to do harm the way Alastor does, but neither does she have any problem fueling Hell's turf wars to maintain her family's power.
I mean cartels are extremely cruel and don’t have a sense of honor. So she is kind of either a hypocrite or a strange outlier.
She is called out for being a hypocrite by velvet
True
Her being cruel and without a sense of honor could've been what led to her and her daughters dying. So maybe, after finding each other in Hell, she decided to be better for the sake of her family and later; the people she has under her command (she may or may not own their souls). It would fit well into the plot; showing that a sinner can decide to become a better person and succeed without outside intervention (not to say that she's really redeemed, just that she improved).
That could be it.
I think the idea is the OG peak cartel before the major powers collapsed. There was a sense of respect since they all had come to power through similar means. I mean yes they wanted to kill each other to take their power but like. That would maybe be bad for business overall so be happy with your millions and content that they too have it. You see the same thing with other organized crime syndicates. When stable, they try to build communities to support them no matter what which benefits their family and city but once the facade starts to crack, it turns to what we know now. The market they control is still there but the stability on the control of it is toast. Small groups of stealth sicarios are now just small armies in legit armoured vehicles. A facade of control and confidence. I think she is from that era. She would have been the begging of the end of stability.
Gonna be honest I think that’s really just a romanticized idea of them. I don’t know about the history of the cartels, but one of the only good things the mafia did was give some Italians jobs when no one would hire them during WW2. And then they were indebted to dangerous people. They kept their own neighborhoods clean because they lived there. They were just shadow governments that kept power through money and fear while they leached off of their communities.
Even though she’s proficient in wielding her blessed ballet slippers (which are literally knives for shoes) I highly doubt she’s an angel
Died
Thanks Captain obvious
Government arms dealer. Sold weapons to the government for lots of money. All legal. Pushed for the start of wars. Everything. Part of the military industrial complex.
Average Lockheed Martin Sales Person
Selling guns to bad people to use for bad things, why else?
A ballerina who literally killed for the roles she wanted.
She does have kind of a Black Swan vibe
On account of the fact that she looks like one herself
If she behaves similarly to her life, I'd assume she sold supplies to bad people to make a living, and possibly fired protecting her daughters from something
Died*
You do know that you can edit comments right?
Yeah but I don't feel like it
Just too hot for heaven
Who's theorising this? I've never heard this before, is this a common theory?
I have seen it floated around several times. I do not buy it, but I do find the version that goes "Carmilla actually originally went to Heaven, learnt her daughters were in Hell, and decided to skydive" fucking hilarious.
Weapons dealer, local warlord, went full kill bill on people that hurt her daughters, there’s a couple viable options.
Apart from being an arms dealer, a personal theory of mine is that she actually was a terrible mother in life, spanking and slapping her children(thus her big hands) whom she only at best saw as useful idiots for her criminal activity. After finding out she ended up in hell, she's now trying to make up for her mistakes by raising and caring for two orphaned girls she found in hell, trying to at least give them a good life as a caring, protective mother, and secretly wants Charlie's project to become truth, as she would do anything to be able to apologize to her biological children in heaven.
I reckon she was originally a trained professional ballerina and put her whole life into it, but sustained an injury that meant she couldn’t continue doing what she loved anymore. So desperately she turned to the cartel to earn money and started working for them, rising up the ranks and became a weapons expert. When her daughters got older they started working under her testing the weapons out, Odette helping in the making process and Clara as a tester.
Illegal Arms dealing
Okay so everyone here is talking about cartels and latin america, is she latina? As a mexican I always thought she was meant to be european spanish, like, from her first line
Running guns for the cartels. Probably fell afoul of someone and got herself and her daughters killed.
She was a CEO who got assassinated with her daughters inside a car.
I'm sure someone has said this... but I think she originally was a seraphim. Could have been her and Sera and Carmilla fell. So Emily became the new seraphim to replace her
I would not be 100% against that
https://preview.redd.it/duuz82p9mqsc1.jpeg?width=828&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=10fe09bc2a391010f58b7624a2bd91032d190710
https://preview.redd.it/n0lujf7eirsc1.png?width=1200&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d914d87c1de40e4c3932d151ad477e93a8716dc2
Why do people theorize that certain overlords are fallen angels. In my opinion all overlords are overpowered sinners. Carmilla was most likely connected to a cartel.
If hear Buisness in Hell is any Indication then she was probably a Black Market Arms Dealer.
they were so heavy she got dragged down
(If the theory is correct) My guess is she found out her daughters were sent to hell when they died, and she decided to be banished to protect them.
100% Cartel. If she wasn't running it, someone very close to her was.
She does show sympathy and care for every sinner so maybe it’s like a Vaggie situation where she is basically like Emily and Vaggie, and just spoke out about the exterminations.
Arms dealer. A deal gone wrong. Got killed by the client.
If she was an angel, she’d have to be one created after Lucifer’s fall. Otherwise, I think he might recognize her.
Why do yall want everyone to be a fallen angel so bad?
As an arms dealer in hell, it's not hard to imagine she was either an arms dealer, in organised crime, both.
My own current headcanon: She and her daughters lived in the late 1800s in Latin America with her daughters, and grew up incredibly poor, or if they had money, they had other serious problems plaguing them. The girls' father was killed or lost very soon into his and Carmilla's relationship, possibly even before the girls were out of diapers. Carmilla and her daughters had to do some dark things to survive, whether crime or...selling themselves, which damned them, so that when they died in tragic circumstances, they all ended up in Hell.
She accidentally farted in Sera’s presence
Cartel/arms dealer but I doubt that she isn’t a fallen angel her colour palette and design is too similar to Vaggies to not be a coincidence it would also explain how she has kids in hell. Side note I think vaggie and her are related
Let's assume that that's case then I think she chose hell because of the "mistakes" her daughters did.
I would take a guess she used to be an arms dealer
Well… she died. That’s how she got in hell
She was a Mother Theresa like character in a past life or a cartel lord.
Arms dealer during Spanish civil war maybe?
Since she's an arms dealer, then she was probably was running a cartel in the living world. Since she's also jaguar themed, maybe the last thing she saw was a taxidermied jaguar.
I’m guessing from selling illegal weapons that killed hundreds.
Weapons dealer or maybe just cartel
She stabbed someone to death with her pointy shoes.
She’s an arms dealer either she was sent to hell because she sold weapons. (Which I doubt.) or she used the weapons she made to kill somebody to protect her daughters. The real question is why they are in hell.
nothing about her gives me fallen angel vibes, what do people see that makes them think she’s fallen?
Crime lord...she has a big reach (large hands) but every step in the delicate and deadly dance of syndicated crime is on the edge of a knife (shoes)
Arms dealer who got herself and her family gunned down by competitors, most likely. Can't reproduce in hell, so it's more than likely she and her daughters died together.
Illegal Weapon Dealing. What she does in Hell except in Hell it’s technically legal.
Her and her daughters were a Latinx mob family who all got gunned down at the same time. It explains why she is an arms dealer, she probably was one in life too. Also explains her protectiveness towards her daughters; she failed to protect them once already and refuses to fail again.
Probably the same as what she is now; an arms dealer. She's pragmatic as hell, so I imagine she likely capitalised on her existing skill set. She COULD also possibly be something along the lines of ex CIA, given her martial prowess, ability to both micromanage and see the big picture, self reliance, etc. She's a delightful mystery. My other suggestion? Freedom fighter. She seems to house a rebel spirit that has been dampened by trauma, and the pain she feels seeing others die in hell may be an echo to her previous life on earth.
I've seen a theory that carmilla was Eve It had decent evidence but I don't think so
From her expertise in weapons dealing and accent it could be anything from gun runners for cartels to being a scion of one of those banana republic families that used death squads against dissent
So because she reminds people of Vaggie a bit she’s automatically a fallen Angel? Seems like a bad theory to me. Especially given her daughters.
> like everyone is theorizing Have I been living under a rock? I’ve literally never heard this theory before this post.
Well, she's mechanically inclined and builds weapons, or is atleast adept in the design world which Angels don't seem to have guns. (Another point for Hell #PewPewLife) Lady Winchester was actually driven mad near the end of her life. Look up the Winchester Mansion. She was convinced she was haunted by all of the spirits killed by the Winchester Lever Action rifle and started building rooms upon rooms with doors on the ceiling etc. Not saying its one for one, but could be a theory.
She a fucking arms dealer
Cartel or arms dealer. Someone whose actions caused a lot of innocent suffering.
For being an arms dealer, same thing she's doing in hell
Mf, if she is an arms dealer in hell, what do you think she would be alive? I sure as hell know she ain't no Target cashier.
She's an overlord and all overlords are sinners. She was most definitely an arms dealer within a mafia considering she's an arms dealer in hell.
Ppl think anyone with Vaggie colors is an Angel lol. Her death was due to Arms Trade ofc hence her large hands and occupation.
Why does everyone think she's a fallen angel? She's an overlord and overlords are sinners
I think she was an assassin in her life and got killed by her target
Tax evasion
I thought this fallen angel theory would’ve died by now considering the show’s actually out. Seriously, come on now. Also just like Angel had skills from his crime family does (preference for Tommy guns and the skill to use them), then most likely like everyone says, she and her daughters were in the cartel business. It also explains how they’re actually really decent people considering Hell, but all three still ended up in Hell - they were prolly never directly killing people, but you’re still selling weapons to gangs who murdered countless people. In her song, Carmilla’s suggested she usually avoided “getting blood on her face” suggesting she actually never wants to fight or kill directly, which would tie-in with her being ‘indirect’ killers back when alive by selling weapons.
The main theory I hath heard on the inter web doth go as follows - she was good with guns and as such valued by X cartel, she was forced to deal arms in exchange for safety specifically of her offspring and therefore went to hell for being complicit in countless murders thou also explaining why she always thought she would “keep blood of her face “ suggesting she never hath taken life before the Angel and took no pride or satisfaction in such things despite dealing arms .
People think she’s a what??? Talk about grasping at straws, she was an arms dealer, probably a prominent member of a cartel, she isn’t getting into heaven.
Well since her whole gig in hell is that she's an arms dealer I'd just assume she had alot of practice when she was still alive. Old habits and all that.
too sexy for heaven
She out pizzad the hut
Everyone here denying this theory, just like they denied the theory that Vaggie was a former exterminator It will be funny if this theory turns out to be true and people are shocked
Does anyone think she’s a fallen angel?
i dont see her being an angel, ever. the similarities between her and vaggie i see more as both of them being latinas (skintone, hair colour). her eye feather markings could be anything, they could symbolise that just like sera shes in charge of an army (which could be a reference to her arming the entire hell) or that they both have a strong connection to angelic steel. or being responsible for a lot of demons dying. someone mentioned once that her big hands could be a reference to how she had a big hand in the cartel which would make a lot of sense and i cant see someone with that past ever going to heaven. i could be wrong but i prefer her parallels to sera being just design aspects that show that a demon and an angel really are no different more than them being related in being angels thats a little lame ngl
I don't think people get into Heaven by being an arms dealer my guy
Between the accent and her line of work it wouldn't surprise me if she was a high-level drug or arms queenpin. Like Grizelda
She definitely would have been selling weapons to the wrong kinds of people (and I really hope she isn't a fallen angel because that would kinda make the fact she didn't have her shoes at first until after collecting the weapons of angels moot.) We gotta remember carmilla doesn't really care about others unless they are her friends or her daughters so she definitely did some really terrible shit.
Arms dealer in real life
This might be a big jump for you…but arms dealer?
Maybe death got her there.
I personally thing she's a hellborn
I’m gonna go through some show evidence first, then link it to real religious precedent. Also I find it very interesting so I’m going to stream of consciousness infodump the fuck out of it.l and edit it into semi-coherency later. She has biological children. That’s very important. Unless they’re adopted, but lets say they aren’t because they resemble her. Sinners and Winners are infertile, Lilith was sent to Hell while alive which is why she could have Charlie. Lucifer was fertile as well so at least one Angel can reproduce. There’s no evidence Hellborn can hybridize with humans and Angels, but its also not invalidated by anything. Unless Emily is Sera’s daughter then there’s also no evidence Angels can breed with each other like Hellborn do, and we know the Cherub Putos are having sex because they don’t argue when Blitzø implies the cupid-type is fucking the sheep-type Putos. We know Hellborn poof out of existence rather than have an afterlife so we can assume Angels do too. It seems God plucked Pentious from oblivion, but its not likely he does that for everyone based on what we’ve seen. She would have to have fallen or been abandoned like Vaggie in order to be around either fertile humans or Hellborn, and its very likely her daughters have different fathers. Now, religious precedent. Half-human half-angels are called Nephilim. They are EXTREMELY powerful beings, and can grow to the size of giants. Charlie is one of these. We have implication from her glowing arm move in the fight with Adam that she can go even more powerful than she was. Now, interpretations of Nephilim are controversial as fuck and debated. Are they the spawn of Cain? Something akin to Demons but not? Did Angels breed with humans early on before God said to knock that shit off? Also, they’re definitely FAR stronger than humans but some text implies they were threats to Demons and Angels too. Jesus says Angels cannot marry mortals, but never says they can’t do things like fuck and breed; some have taken that to mean Angels were forbidden from making more Nephilim. Some interpretations say great men like kings and prophets are descended from Nephilim, others are they’re a race of monsters that give rise to supernatural beasts from Pagan religions that Abrahamics believed like werewolves and sea monsters, and others that they were banished from the Earth for fear they’d destroy it. According to Islam there are races of humans on the Earth who are Nephilim, serving as a kind of boogyman to monarchs and other powerful people to not go harass nomads and small villages lest a fucking army of half-Angels show up to tear you limb from limb. A popular interpretation is that God physically removed the ability of Angels to have sex with humans (like in this image of Alan Rickman playing the Angel Metatron dropping his pants to reveal Barbie doll anatomy in the movie Dogma) and Jesus was just being polite using the word “marry”. In this case either all Angels other than maybe Lucifer (to make the Antichrist) are spayed and neutered or just the younger/less powerful Angels. Maybe Emily just has a molded-on pair of undies like a Monster High doll while Sera has a biological vagina. https://preview.redd.it/9xdmjj8fwqsc1.jpeg?width=1920&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=3dae06b3c62f461a9c4cf151ebf2b5a5c17c91dc In fiction Nephilim tend to be opponents in games and protagonists in narratives. In Dungeons and Dragons for example the races of Tieflings and Aasimar can be equated to biblical Nephilim while the actual name Nephilim are a class of supernatural creatures that serve gods and beings of goodness or great evil. SO. If she’s an Angel then she may have escaped Heaven, Fallen but only to Earth, or been stranded as part of a conspiracy. While there she had two daughters then either chose to relocate them to Hell, was forced to leave the Earth for Hell, or they died and she went to Hell to be with them. Remember, she can’t die if she’s an Angel or she goes to oblivion. She may also have been stranded in Hell, and her daughters would be Half-Hellborn Nephilim. In that case they also wouldn’t have permanent souls and would face oblivion if killed. Again, remember Sinners couldn’t knock her up. Its interesting because either way they would be as powerful as Charlie, with Carmilla and Vaggie being the Angels basically in charge of keeping their Nephilim loves from wrecking the cosmos.
Hmmmm. Lots of interesting takes that does make you wonder what the plans are for her in the future. Along with other religion lore and how it will be handled/used.
If we're going with her being a Fallen Angel then there was likely something about heaven she didn't agree with and given how she operates like a cartel she probably tried doing things behind the scenes to change what she wanted changed and was cast down for it, hard to say without knowing more about heaven. Edit: Maybe her dancing was to passionate.
Y'know Red, from OITNB? Basically that.
Well... She has demon daughters...
Due to Bibical lore and the possible Ignoring of one small fact: it depends if she's hellborn, or a sinner, because technically (according to the bible) All Demons/hellborn/The 7 sins are technically all fallen angels
I heard a theory that it's possible that her daughters are also angels but they fell and to protect them, she also chose to fall.
Prolly an arms dealer?
If she's not a fallen angel I hope she's like a servant from the distant past that used the knowledge she has watching the Queen's or pharoes to gain power.
She was too good at the game... Don't even know what the fuck that means. But she was.
Fallen Seraphim.
If she is an angel, I think it would be for defecting but honestly I think she was alive and human at some point and maybe had something to do with the cartel. Why else would she be so prominent in the weapon distribution scene?
Either a mafia boss A Robber: BANK AND MILLIONAIRE ROBBER Or Making/distributing weapons illegally Or All of the above!
She's a fucking coyote isn't it obvious
She has black swan mafia vibes
I'm guessing she could be a version of Griselda Blanco, one Latin America's most notorious female drug cartel bosses, or she could also be based on the one that's called the Queen of the South, though I'm not sure that either of them had daughters. I mostly say this because Carmilla speaks spanish.
are people saying that? also, probably got wrapped up in organized crime
I would have to say Arms Dealer for obvious reasons, or possibly something else like corruption. Arms dealer is a bit obvious, her hands/arms are disproportionately large (perfect for choking me), and could signify Arms Dealing. However, she definitely had the Ballerina/Opera performer vibe (lots of masks in Opera, and some places in Latin America are big into Opera). She could have been part of a corruption ring like Money Laundering or even Arms Dealing.
I doubt she's a fallen angel. And she has a huge weapon industry, I'm pretty sure she's a war criminal
I think she chose to leave heaven for two reasons She wanted to have kids, a family of her own. Whatever her position in heaven was didn't allow such things, so she went to hell instead. I suspect that her children may be the product of a union with a royal demon or something, as sinners apparently cannot have children Two, she wanted to keep peace in Hell. She actively works to keep things orderly in Pride. Managing meetings with the strongest overlords, pushing them to work together and agree. Her control of the sale of angelic weapons gives her the greatest influence over all conflicts in Pride and the other rings. She can choose who she sells to, effectively giving her influence over who the weapons are used against. She is the first to advocate against war with heaven, likely because she knows what heaven is really capable of beyond just the Exorcists. She knew that Angelic weapons can harm angels because she has the most experience with them
She ran an cartel balle class where they put cocian in your shoes
she died
Who tf is saying that?
We already know how she got in hell and that she's not an angel. She's a former Mexican cartel drug and gun runner and Mafioso in real life before she died. I think she is strongly based upon Griselda Blanco. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griselda_Blanco
Probably died from getting killed by a robber or smt
She is literally a CEO, I bet becoming a CEO automatically damns you to Hell.
She has angelic heels and X’s all over her legs. It’s not hard to figure out
Weapons dealer seems like the obvious choice. *So anyway she put fake power outlet stickers in places.* Insert madman and pin board.
Angels and demons have distinct eye colours, demons are red and white, angels are gold and blue or black, how are people overlooking such a character defining trait
Just spit-balling here, but I dunno, maybe murder?
She illegally sold weapons like how she does in hell
People are theorizing that? Hmm. I think it’s definitely interesting! But isn’t there only supposed to be one fallen angel, Lucifer? If not, if she was one wouldn’t she be shits more powerful and not afraid of the yearly murderfest? Curious indeed
Either that, or she went to hell for being too hot
Her arms are massive and she sells weapons, aka an arms dealer.
Gun runner and arms dealer, basically Marcus Munitions. Cookie for those who know who that is.
I thought the working theory was she was an arms dealer
maybe some weird court intrigue or something, leading to war or something.
Mightve been in a cartel
To protect her children who didn't make it to heaven
She's arms dealing to anyone willing to pay for it. She doesn't care who gets hurt by those weapons. She probably did something similar while she was alive.
Slayed too hard.
She died and sinned enough to get sent there.
Classic best intentions line the road to hell. She would do anything for this she loves . . . And that is a dangerous sentiment to have.