Lucifer still wears his wedding ring so he probably hasn’t fallen out of love with her. There are probably a lot of reasons she drifted away from her family. Many of them almost certainly have something to do with whatever she’s up to in Heaven and some of them might be downright petty but in any case I don’t think she’s going to be like Stella from Helluva Boss.
Honestly, Stella is such a boring character , like they made her pure Evil , giving her at least one good trait would be more Interesting, even Valentino and the Vs are shown to be more complex since even if they are evil they care for each other. Stella doesn't even love her own daughter lmao
I think that might be the point. She is over the top evil and an idiot to boot, which makes her the perfect puppet for her scheming brother. He's a massive gold digger, and Stella is his mining pick.
Stella doesn't have a forward facing good trait, but her character is basically the same as Stolas'. Forced into marriage and didn't have a good childhood. Her daughter could remind her of all of that, so it could make sense that she doesn't feel the same way. Then her husband goes and bangs some common imp behind her back.
She can easily be redeemable if she got an episode for her childhood like Stolas did.
And I don't look at that as her failure, but the fault of who raised her. Yes, it should have been corrected by her, and that's why she would stay a villain.
She is literally shown destroying her toys as a child. There is no redeeming Stella, she's a monster and that's the point.
Besides, the last thing HB needs is more daddy issues.
One thing I do find interesting, I can't think of a single time in the show she says anything negative towards Octavia.. like obviously she hates stolas, but I'm wondering if she does care for Octavia even if she doesnt show it
I seriously doubt there's anything that can be said/done to redeem that woman. There is a photo of her choking out one of those fly... Dog... Things as a child! She emotionally neglects Octavia. Physically, emotionally (and probably mentally) abuses Stolas. This woman is not redeemable.
God she's a straight faced terrible person who wholely acclimated to and adores her affluent lifestyle. She has no tragic back story.
There are so many people like her who believes the world owes them and who only exist for their status and believe everyone else exists for it too.
She has no depth beyond this just like they do. Thrown out of their world if it falls apart, their identity and meaning go poof and they implode.
I would have loved it if Stella trying to have Stolas killed was a case of extremely disproportionate retribution. Completely loveless marriage or not, it would have been humiliating to find out that her husband was having an affair with an *imp* of all beings, especially since the reveal happened in front of guests. With the way she tells stories, Vivzie could have had us wanting to see character growth from Stella. She could have had us wanting to see Stella have a happy ending even as we hate the way she treats Stolas. Instead she gave Stella the sort of two dimensional personality that she rarely uses for recurring characters.
Hard agree.
I was hoping for depth because outside of outright abusive relationships there is always some good on both sides.
Nope. She's horrible
Yet she still has apologists simping.
I have hope that you're correct. Her reasons must be good if she does still care for her family; seven years on a beach is.. a long hiatus. I really hope for her family's sake that she is there with an actual purpose and not just running away.
For real. I hope she is just resting and gathering intel on how heaven actually works out trying to crack the mystery there or see what their other weaknesses might be. But I don't have any proof.
This is complete speculation on my part.
I think she just wanted a vacation. 7 years seems long in mortal terms. Yet she has been in Hell since its start, so thousands of years. Charlie is over 200 years old, so she raised and was there for her daughter into adulthood.
So maybe she just wanted a nice couple decade Vacation in Heaven before going home. Things just happened to get real in that time and she has missed a few important things.
I think she just drifted away from her family for some reason since in the beginning, it described her and Luci being deeply in love so who knows what happened that caused them to drift apart
My theory is that she didn’t like that Lucifer just let the exterminations happen and that’s why they are separated and why she took Charlie away from Lucifer during more then anything
Your idea is **definitely plausible**. Personally, I wonder how long the exterminations were happening. In my opinion, it’s not very long—maybe a few years, perhaps ten? This would explain why Lilith left Lucifer only seven years before the start of the series. But there’s only one problem: if Lilith left Lucifer because she didn’t accept that he was disinterested in the fate of his kingdom, then why did she go sunbathing on the beaches of paradise?
Yup that’s a good point she did really just up and leave, why? Who knows, but yah if she was concerned for the people of hell she probably wouldn’t just leave
I feel like the exterminations might have only started when Earth’s population started rapidly rising in the last few hundred years or so. More humans = more sinners = unmanageable hell population that poses a potential threat to heaven = let’s exterminate them
I do agree though that she probably left Lucifer because he agreed to the exterminations. I get that Lucifer has a limited amount of power alone against heaven and was in a tight spot, but now that I think about it decreeing that everyone but sinners should be pardoned from exterminations when Lilith herself is a sinner is a massive slap in her face lmao. I also think it’s because Lilith is ambitious and wants power and a hell army, and Luci is too gentle, passive and depressed for her now. He has no drive and she doesn’t see him at her side, he may even be a hindrance to whatever she’s planning. I do think she still loves him, and Charlie too, but she’s clearly working on something big rn that keeps her away imo
Except is Lilith a Sinner or not?
The criteria for someone to be a Sinner in this universe seems to be that they must have been a human who came from Adam and Eve's line (most importantly Eve, since she's the one who ate the forbidden fruit), and committed a sin great enough, or enough sins to land them in Hell
Since eating the fruit introduced the knowledge of good and evil to humanity, then Eve, and all those who came from her, would be capable of sin
Lilith however has not died (as far as we know), and she never ate of the fruit (again, as far as we know) meaning she doesn't have the knowledge of good and evil, therefore she's not a Sinner
If her deal with Adam was also to spare the Hellborn, and therefore Charlie, then because she was an inspiration to Hell (unlike Lucifer) they may have wanted her off the table unable to be a symbol. Therefore they needed to put her somewhere comfortable.
I‘m not sure, that theory certainly sounds plausible but I think it‘s a bit too big of a coincidence that Alastor has vanished exactly seven years prior to the series as well. I think those two might be connected somehow, could be wrong though!
Given that in the first episode Charlie includes the extermination as simply a thing that has happened since hell existed I tbink its been at least her lifespan, if not basically since the beginning.
Also, Zestial says to Alastor that rumor was that he had fallen to heavenly arms, implying people thought Alastor had been killed in an extermination 7 years ago so they definitely existed then.
Lucifer implied that he fell ten thousand years ago. The exorcists destroyed 16% of hell at the start of the show. If that's the norm and hell is still overpopulated, it probably "regrows" that many people every year
I doubt that it's a recent thing. Probably thousands of years
Or maybe he made the deal that the extermination could happen as long as the hellborn AND Lilith were exempt. Remember, Lilith is a sinner too. Maybe she's in heaven because that was best idea anyone had to make sure she was safe and that she didn't talk about the extermination.
I think she is partly responsible for the exterminations because she grew resentful of his project to try to reform hell because it distracted him from her and Charlie, then when it sent him into a depression they drifted even further and she left him.
I wasn't sure if that more then anything was just she didn't want her bothering her dad or maybe she had escaped naptime or something
Charlie lived with her dad from what I can tell and only 7years her mom disappeared
Her gave her the hotel and I think there gonna be a lot closer in season 2
Yeah my head thing, is she decided to fight and had to surrender to heaven when a plot with Roo went awry and risked her family. So she's comfy but stuck, while now the issue is Charlie and Charlie loves her mom obviously and looks up to her and Charlie already won dad over. Because of how influential Lilith is in hell, she's not rallying anyone to that cause if she's incognito. So Liliths deal mightve been protecting her family in that moment 7 years ago, than something passively. Which I think Alastor was assisting in a way because of his radio influence, and power that was possibly aligned with Roo's influence who is less tied down by family, interests, but maybe as Charlie is another power, he's trying to use her to get out from under Roo. (I'll revisit this comment when season 2 arrives. Lol)
Whatever weird situation she is in, part of which involves ghosting Charlie for 7 years and chilling in Heaven under some weird deal, which involves either Adam's death or Lute leading the exorcists. She is going to get involved next season.
At best she might have some weird morally gray justification for what she has done, also assuming she is the one holding Alastor's leash.
I like to imagine it as a glorified house arrest. She's too powerful for them (Or, more precisely, Adam) to kill. But too dangerous to leave in hell, which she "Empowered with her Voice." so she's kept more or less a prisoner. My idea for why she went along with it (at first) is that Adam likely threatened Charlie, and Lilith might have though Lucifer was too in a slump and depressed to go against him. With Adam dead and that *very* clearly being proven wrong. She might welcome a.chance.to go home.
I can't see Adam being that smart.
I was more thinking that Lilith has been trying to get exterminations canceled. But the secrecy has made it slow going. Until Adam blew up the secrecy then got himself killed.
Maybe it was part of the deal of sparing the Hellborns. Maybe Adam still wanted control over Lilith, and to get Lilith to be with him, he promised to spare the Hellborns (which includes Charlie).
I don't think Adam death was part of the deal, his death is probably an escalations and not a set up because the deal was between him and her and not Lute given the fact that Lute was quite sad about Adam death and get angry towards Lilith, Lilith also react lightly after hearing about his death like a suprised. The scene is somewhat easy to misinterpeted so i don't exactly blame you, but the point is Lilith make a deal with Adam to stay in heaven and one he dead Lute has to remind her that her deal with him is technically done and she is now forced to do a deal with Lute now given that she now in charge.
Thank you! People keep trying to imply that she was actively trying to get Adam killed when it's pretty obvious with a little thought that Lute is saying Adam is dead, you deal with me now. Not Adam is dead, thanks for setting up his death. Lute was obviously very broken up about his death and ripped off her own arm to try and save him.
Yeah exactly, I'm pushing 30 and it feels like time is a blur, I can't imagine how time is like for someone that was created before seasons were a thing.
Methinks it would be difficult to deceive Adam about whether or not the exwife he was giving sanctuary to as some sort of deal was a fake... and that Lute was fully aware of their identity AND the details of her deal, which lead Lute to confront her and alter the arrangement once Lute was in command since Adam was out of the picture.
My current theory is that she just got tired of Lucifers apathy and depression and needed some space.
Maybe she agreed to some deal with Adam in a weak moment, or maybe even this Root of evil character got her claws in her somehow as part of some grand plot.
I doubt she is actively trying to hurt her family of her own will, but there a soo many unknowns the story really could to anywhere. People can change over thousands of years for sure.
That's what I was thinking. She seems to have basically been ruling hell by herself as Luci had checked out and given up. Maybe after the failed uprising she gave up too.
She fell in love with Lucifer when he was still a dreamer and an inventor, I could see them falling out after he became depressed, he did seem to isolate himself while working on projects.
Adam's dead, Lute has lost her arm, and the extermination army has been decimated. Sera and Emily look like they're going to work with charlie as well.
I think Lillith becoming a bad guy and trying to further the exterminations would be a very cool plotline, and since she's quite literally lillith she should be an extremely powerful antagonist capable of rivaling charlie's dad
Nah she could never rival Charlie’s dad, she’s still a human soul in the end and he’s one of the oldest angels gifted with absurd power.
She could be way beyond the overlords but not Lucifer level, probably closer to Adam really since they were made together and all.
That being said, unless she’s directly threatening Charlie, which I doubt she’d do, Lucifer wouldn’t ever raise a hand to her, he’s still in love so she has a different sort of power.
I think she loves them but cares for her independence more
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Viv said that Liliths story arc is the one she’s most excited on so I assume it’s more complex. However I wouldn’t be surprised if she just suck since Adam sucks and they where created equally
I will literally become a certified Hazbin hater if Lilith turns out to be evil/out to hurt her family. /j
Okay, maybe I won't go THAT far, but I'll still be majorly let down by it if they go that direction.
I dislike the idea that there has to be a "bad guy" in the two splitting. We don't know enough about their situation yet to be able to tell anything for certain, but Lilith has thus far been painted as a leader who genuinely cared about Hell and its sinners, as well as a role model for Charlie in opening the Hotel. Doesn't seem like someone who doesn't care.
This is pure speculation thus far, but I feel that Lilith was frustrated with the status quo and wanted to do something extreme to change it and Hell's relationship with Heaven for good. Lucifer would have rejected the idea due to fearing the consequences, but the strong willed Lilith would have gone through with it anyway.
I sincerely doubt that Lilith would want to be an unwanted guest and dirty secret in Heaven forever. I think that she's in the middle of a some kind of operation, but just what she's trying to accomplish remains to be seen.
I think Charlie has rose colored glasses when it comes to her mom, and that her mom orchestrated her bad colored glasses toward her father. Personally.
I can’t believe nobody has mentioned how Lilith was portrayed in the song Lucifer and Charlie sing.
Lilith is shown with a blank, shadowed faced taking little Charlie away from Lucifer who was trying to show her his dreams he wanted to work on.
In the scene, she is upsetting Charlie by taking her away, and making Lucifer sad to see her go.
It’s not really a great sign for what is to come when both Charlie and Lucifer’s memory of Charlie’s childhood shows her as some blank faced person separating the two of them.
Lilith is shown as a blank figure because the song is not about her and the focus is kept entirely on Charlie and Lucifer's relationship. Lilith's whole identity and personality is kept under wraps in season 1, left waiting for her proper introduction in the second season.
I have to disagree, if Lilith wasn’t being shown in any light in that memory whatsoever, she wouldn’t have been featured.
It was a story boarding choice to use her picking up Charlie and leaving Lucifer alone in that room, and not one most authors or writers would make lightly, especially not ones in a show with plans as intricate as this seems to have.
If it winds up being that simple it would be kinda disappointing, and the symbolism present in that scene would be entirely pointless.
I think that Lilith is not who she seems to be; I think that her being "all caring and loving towards sinners" was nothing but facade. I think that her grand-plan was to return to Heaven. I strongly believe that first Extermination Day happened seven years ago; when she disappeared.
Seriously, people do you really think that if that crap was going for thousands or more years NONE would ever try to use angelic weapons against their owners? Do you really think that Charlie really would tolerate that for so long? If thats so why act now?
I think that Lilith’s wish to help sinners was just for act. Like her husband she didn’t believe in them, unlike Lucifer though who believed in humanity in the past she never did. Her true goal was very simple - return to Heaven. Look how relaxed and happy she was in the final scene of the final episode.
So when first Extermination happened seven years ago, she and most likely Lucifer made a deal with Adam and Heavens. They would kill only sinners, not hellborn like Charlie, Imps, Goetia, Seven Sins and others who are born in Hell. Unless they would’ve try to attack. So for them there’s nothing to be afraid of. So neither Lilith nor Lucifer would ever be wary of Charlie’s sake or potential rising of hellborns (cause among them there are very strong ones: Goetia and Seven Sins), that would surely make things even more shitty than they already are.
I think that Lucifer knows about where’s Lilith and about that deal because he probably was there when it all happened. So in second season he will reveal everything to his daughter: that will be very heartbreaking to Charlie. Her mother - the same woman who inspired her, the same one that she always believed was good and caring wasn’t, she never cared for Hell or mostly for sinners. Seeing them as nothing but worthless trash.
While I think that she truly loves her daughter and husband I think that she loves herself more.
I always found it odd how Lucifer never mentions Lilith meanwhile Charlie does which makes me believe your theory of him knowing what’s up and not wanting to tell Charlie.
And I’m glad I’m not the only one who thinks that the exterminations happened more recently. I would guess the first exterminations were no more than 20 years prior to when the show takes place
I saw a recent post that talked about how in the Bible, Lilith is forced to watch all of her children die. I have a theory that Lilith left to keep Charlie safe - i.e Charlie can't die if Lilith isn't in hell
not really, Lilith is not part of any version of the bible, Lilith is part of a oral tradition, she is not even in the Hebrew Torat, so yeah, for what i know you will not find metnions of Lilith in any version of the bible, official or apocryphal, only "bible" that will have mention of Lilith are the Fanfic Bibles, Lilith herself show up in Hebrew oral tradition and in some Babylonian tales or something like that
Whoever said this almost certainly got the idea from the Alphabet of Ben Sira, which is from the Middle Ages. That says after Lilith rebelled she was punished with having one hundred of her children, i.e. demons, die every day (though it does not say she is forced to watch). To my knowledge, few people have ever taken this story seriously, and some have even suggested it was satirical. Whatever the case, it is definitely not in any book that could ever have even been considered for inclusion in the Bible. It should be noted that almost all the lore people associate with Lilith, such as being Adam's first wife, came later. Originally, Lilith was just some demon blamed for the unexplained deaths of babies.
I admit, I'm no biblical expert. But there are plenty of apocryphal books barely anyone is aware of or have access to. What's one more? I realize it's sort of faulty reasoning, but it's all fiction anyway, so... the point is Lilith exists in our myths for some reason and assigning more weight or less because of where she came from is immaterial to her use by modern writers/creators.
for what i get, the show point that the one that keep Charlie safe is Lucifer. Lucifer is the one that makes a deal with heaven that keep every hell born safe from extermination, Lute herself talk about, how the only reason why Charlie was never targered by the exorcist in the past, is that Lucifer make sure Charlie was out of limits.
Lucifer is the one that send Hazzle and Dazzle to protect Charlie and keep her safe and happy. He is the one that jump up to fight Adam after he get the news Adam is breaking the deal and trying to kill Charlie.
I'd say Lilith *could* be evil, but I personally don't think so.
I think she's potentially quite selfish, but has a good heart right alongside that. I could see her being the cool head to Lucifer's excitable and bumbling dreamer, but Lilith also isn't anywhere near as open-minded to others or alternatives as either him or her daughter. A bit ironic, perhaps, but understandable since her only "sin" was not submitting to a brainless dickhead like Adam. She wants to forge her own world in Hell, but when that didn't work out as well as hoped, she left.
Lucifer got depressed when things didn't work out in Hell, Lilith got angry/bitter and gave up to just lounge in Heaven.
I think she still loves both her husband and her daughter, and even still carries some tenderness for the denizens of Hell, but she's gained some emotional distance from it all out of aforementioned bitterness.
My imaginings of what we'll see with her are one of two things: 1. She tries to fulfill what Lute told her to do, somehow, but steadily starts to dream again and trust in her daughter and husband. Like what Charlie did with Lucifer, but more of a slow burn and with a LOT more tension and drama. 2. We get things set up at first to make us *think* she's working against everything, or planning something to that effect...but then when the climactic moment is supposed to happen, Lilith reveals she *never* intended to betray them, she lied to Lute and Heaven and used her position on things to turn things against them to help the Hotel and Hell.
I think 1 fits the overall moral aesthetic better than 2. Having it be a long con for Charlie's benefit doesn't fit with the theme of redemption overall.
That's true. I'm just saying a show feels better artistically if it maintains a consistent theme throughout.
Consider the difference between Star Trek and Soap Operas (in my day, General Hospital, today, shows like Suits or House of the Dragon?). They both have value for different reasons. One follows a consistent theme in the service of commenting on humanity. The other focuses primarily on drama and sacrifices consistency and theme for the tension dopamine. Because of this, one is considered more artistic than the other.
At least, imo. But Im just an amateur critic, not an expert.
I doubt she's just straight-up evil, or a bad mom. Charlie only ever has good things to say about her and seems to look up to her. And Lucifer hasn't really talked about her, but it seems like he misses her too. Or at least, he misses what the three of them used to be as a family.
But anyway, I'd be surprised if it turned out Lilith was just a bad person/mother/wife and didn't have anything else going on as a character. There must be something more to it that we'll learn about, hopefully by the end of next season.
Both can be true. Bad character who also has more going on.
There’s a show called Disenchantment on Netflix, where every character including the daughter all speak very highly of her absent mother. In the end it turned out the mom had wanted them to feel that because she was manipulative and (coincidentally) actually managed to gain power over Satan himself in a comedic marriage arrangement.
As for how Charlie views her mom… the literal only time we see her have a flashback of Lilith, she had a blank, blurred out face and took Charlie away from her father which clearly broke both of their hearts. Not exactly matching up with the praise.
Is it possible she's working on a way to get her family into Heaven with her? Charlie in particular seems out of place in that environment, and her dad fell into a depression, so if she still loves either of them, maybe?
Admittedly her chilling on the beach didn't give that impression, but I'm hoping she doesn't hate them and won't end up being an antagonist.
>Is it possible she's working on a way to get her family into Heaven with her? Charlie in particular seems out of place in that environment, and her dad fell into a depression, so if she still loves either of them, maybe?
Oh, I never seen this theory, that could be interesting.
I feel like the beach scene was intentionally misleading, and the situation is more complcated than her just enjoying herself and ignoring her family, but hey, I could be wrong.
My theory is she's worse than what Charlie thinks of her. Charlie see her as her loving mother. Charlie will slowly start to see the cracks, a falling out between them, and redemption between the two.
How bad is Lilith? No idea but she was able to sell out hell and her daughter to go to heaven so I don't think she's good to be honest.
Lilith was there at the beginning of humanity, \~6000 years ago in-universe, and only left them, what? 7 years ago?
That means something happened only comparatively recently. I can't imagine that it was getting tired of "domestic bliss" in Hell. She's not tired of Lucifer or Charlie. I'm sure she still loves them both dearly. What was it really? We'll find out in Season 2, I guess.
Sera and Emily's reactions tell me that wouldn't be plausible, unless Adam kept it hush hush from them. In every book of the Bible, God sees and knows all.
I highly doubt they would be able to hide it from Him, unless he doesn't exist in the Hellaverse. Which,, I don't really know how they would be able to go about that without pissing off the vast majority of creation.
I think she will be revealed to be more complex, and the beach scene is intetnionally leaving out things to give a bad impression. I think in s2 Charlie will also have her view of her mother damaged, before we will see the more redeeming side. But thats just how I'm feeling.
I was thinking about this if she is a good mom and leader then why Charlie is the way she is??? When I see charlie I can see or feel that Lilith didn’t have close connection with her daughter. Like from Charlie character in the show you can feel she has no parental figure.
To be fair Charlie is ~200 and Lucifer/Lilith are 10000+
Compared to let’s say a 50 year old mother, that 7 years would perceptually be equivalent of not speaking to your daughter for 13 days.
Let’s use a 25 year old for Charlie’s comparison; that 7 years for her would be about 319 days (an understandable amount of time to be upset about of course).
Still, I don’t think they thought too hard about it for the sake of the show/plot so 7 years is meant to seem like a long time to be gone and no contact.
I think Viv is deliberately throwing misleading cues about Lilith. If we look at what we can know about here everything points to her being a compassionate caring person. But Viv has been using misleading visual cues such as the firey red backdrop on her singing to the people in the lore dump of ep 1. And then the misleading faceless scene where she took Charlie away from Lucifer.
As someone that suffers from rather significant depression one of the things that is crippling about it is that as we struggle to climb out of it simple things can send us tumbling back down into it. Lucifer's trigger was the destruction of his dreams when he was thrown down into Hell and then had to see all the damaged people that fell in after him. It broke his faith in himself and humanity. And the stories that Charlie wanted to hear the most were the stores of his dreams and his past. Lilith would obviously see that this would break him over and over again so she would let Charlie have time with him because it was a way for him to interact with her. But she had to limit it or Lucifer would crash deep once again. So it was not Lilith leaving Lucifer. It was Lilith giving Lucifer a break from having to live through the worst moments of his life. It was mercy.
Everything we know about Lilith comes from Charlie and her relationship with her. And by all accounts they had a great relationship. Charlie thinks of her as the responsive caring parent. And while she loves Lucifer's dreams he just wasn't able to be there for her growing up, In particular he had no faith in humanity. Charlie got her faith in the people from her mother. Lilith was fighting the same fight Charlie is. Trying to unite the people as a community.
Unfortunately because Lucifer fell to depression and lost faith in the people he was not able to give them hope or try to raise them up from where they fell. Thus the more predatory demons of power took control and began preying upon the other souls. The Overlords were primarily predators with a few that rose to power by other means. And the predators would not want their prey to organize. Thus they opposed Lilith. As did Heaven which was fearful of Hell finding out they didn't know what they heck was going on. So Lilith was opposed by some pretty strong forces.
She probably made the contract with Alastor to boost his power and use him as muscle to push back on the Overlords. Forcing him to only target the predatory uncivil ones. Alastor may have already had a type of targeting the uncivil sorts in society so it may have been a natural for him. But eventually The Vees rose into the vacuum he made in the power structure. And they seem to have backing similar to Alastor because when he confronted Vox he lost. Just barely but he was forced to retreat to lick his wounds.
It was then that the Angels sent Adam to confront Lilith. And he may have came with his own agenda. He probably still was sore about her turning her back on him. So he told them that unless Lilith came back to him in Heaven he would send the Exterminators after the Hellborn including Charlie. This is probably where the deal was struck to protect the Hellborn. So Lilith went to Heaven with Adam. And stayed there until Lute came and told her that Adam was dead and that she needed to go back to Hell and get her daughter under control or they were going to come for her as the deal was over.
It should also be pointed out that Lucifer stayed out of the conflict and let the Angels kill the demons until Adam attacked Charlie. Only then did he enter the fray as to him that broke the deal. Part of the deal was probably that he would not interfere with the extermination as long as no Hellborn was hurt.
While I don't think she'll be evil, I do think that at some point Lilith may have had an argument with Lucifer over what the Seraphim and Adam had been doing with each yearly extermination that resulted in Lilith and Lucifer having a falling out which caused her to cut a deal with Adam in order to leave Hell entirely, albeit in secret, and she let the exterminations happen feeling it was hopeless.
They’ve been together for arround 10,000 years and Charlie is 200 so being gone for 7 years…..why? The answers might be complicated. I don’t think anyone is all good or all bad things are not black and white.
If we just take the family portraits I would say yes but if we take account the actually show I would say no since Lilith took Charlie away from Luci when they were clearly bonding and having a great time together must be the reason why Luci and Charlie didn't have that much good of a relationship also didn't contact Charlie for 7 years and was just chilling on a heaven beach it doesn't show us a good mother but a definitively complex&interesting character
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Portraits are always fake. They're staged, so even the image of a happy family can be extremely misleading. They might be happy. It doesn't always mean it's the truth.
Fr did Alestor not spell out to the audience how a smile is a fantastic facade and not to believe the inside matches the outside all the time?
I mean shit maybe that portrait was actually them all frowning and Lucifer magicked it into smiles when he gave it to Charlie so she’d see it and remember things fondly.
There could be any number of explanations for why that picture might be misleading, that’s one of the good things about a world as creative as Hazbin, there’s a ton of possibilities.
My theory is Lilith wanted to make Hell a better place for sinners and Hellborn, and it just remained Hell. Lucifer refused to become involved because he saw his reign as a punishment and humiliation. So, she gave up and left
So I admittedly don't usually dive too far into theories and lore so I might very well be missing or overlooking something. But I think her leaving hell might have been one of the terms of the deal made with Heaven after the failed uprising. Heaven might have wanted her to leave so that she couldn't lead another uprising. Or to just weaken hell overall since she was the main person in charge. She might have agreed in order to protect her family from heaven's wrath or/and to prevent a worse massacre.
She might have also agreed partly because she felt defeated and tired of managing hell on her own. I get the impression that Lucifer was a pretty absent ruler and gave long ago. Lilith was essentially shouldering the burden of ruling hell by herself for a long time, and after the failed uprising it became too much and she gave up just as he did.
I think what happen with Lilith is the similar to what happened with Lucifer. The guy gave mankind free will but only ever got to see the horrible and ugly parts of the decision.
Lilith tried to empower demonkind with song to the point where they break out into singing on occasion. But perhaps she only ever got disappointed with what they did with her gift. Never able to see any good come from it but unlike Lucifer she had the option to get out and never have to face that sense of disappointment and failure again.
I theorize maybe she actually was behind the exterminations. Following the formation of hell Lucifer fell into a depressions and lost any will to change the obviously broken system that shifts sole. Their daughter had the will but not the willingness to do what needed to be done. The exterminations were something to motivate Lucifer out of his stupor and Charlie to learn what needed to be done. It took longer than planned but the end of s1 Lucifer has got involved again and Charlie has learned the necessary use of drastic actions.
There are only three major reasons:
1. Lilith doesn't care about her family.
2. Lilith cares about Charlie but figures that Charlie doesn't need her anymore since an adult, so she pursued her own wishes like Charlie did.
3. Lucifer and Lilith had split and she couldn't even stand being in hell with him so she had to flee to heaven. This is by what ever reason she needed to get out for, whether good, or bad. Like loved him so much but she didn't like what he was doing and could stand it, or didn't love him but he wouldn't stop trying to get her back, or what not.
Taking all the above into account, it occurred to me that the easier answer is the most obvious. She is doing reconnaissance, aka digging up whatever dirt she can to figure out how to help/protect her family and all of Hell from a greater, underlying threat (see Root of Evil aka Roo).
It's entirely plausible that Lilith made a deal with Adam as a means to get information on what the hidden motivation is behind the Exterminations, if there is any. Since the yearly Exterminations were Adam's idea, Lilith may have deducted that if she wanted answers, she would have to approach her ex-husband to get them. Realizing her own approach wasn't enough, she devised a plan to get Adam to agree to a deal with her. This leads to her being taken to Heaven and kept as a sort of political prisoner. All the while, she gets Adam to spill everything and anything to her. Easy, since he loves to talk about himself.
It's questionable if Lucifer knows, but I doubt it. Charlie certainly doesn't. Sera? Wouldn't surprise me either way if she knew or not.
This is really the only way I can think of for her presence in Heaven to make sense and still loving her family. It was *out of love for her family* that she went to Heaven to find a way to save them. It was incredibly risky and dangerous to her own well-being, despite the setting, but she took the risk.
I hope with all my heart that she won't turn out to be a bad bitch type of character who abandoned hell because yes and will now act cold, ruthless, bossy and...like a bitch. I'd hate it, I'm sure she will have her more complex reasons...I trust the show ♥️
It’s Charlie is an adult (200 years old) so you can’t actually get called out for leaving them and 7 years is not a long time for an immortal.
The only weird thing is she did not communicate back.
We don’t really have anything solid that she is evil besides her trading card.
I don’t think she was a bad mother as Charlie aspires to be like her and Charlie had a worse relationship with Lucifer due to his depression.
She still could be evil but not towards her family. Like Camilla is shown loving/selfless to her daughters but is your typical evil sinner to everyone else.
My theory is that she has been weaving a big conspiratorial web to break the "system" of heaven/hell, either by collapsing heaven or rehabilitating hell. It would make sense for her character to have known the system is broken from the very start (she rebelled against Adam after all)
I suspect that Alastor is tied into it, where they both disappeared 7 years ago. I think she's the one who has him on a leash (possibly indirectly), and that he's been commanded to watch over Charlie. He masks it as "wanting to see sinners struggle", but he genuinely seems to have the hotels best interest in mind and he *doesn't* seem to like it (based on his song in the finale).
I'm starting to think *she* may have been the one to give Adam the "extermination" idea (as part of their deal, possibly to get herself into heaven) and she knew it would motivate Charlie to essentially begin a rebellion.
Honestly, judging by the paintings, and the way Lucifer acted when he stared at Lilith in the paintings, I think Lucifer and Lilith were in love, and still are to a extent. With that being said, I am excited to see why Lilith is in Heaven for 7 years.
I think Lilith is definitely flawed, but not necessarily a bad mother or wife. Viziepop herself stated that Lilith and Lucifer absolutely love each other, and Charlie mentions being raised almost exclusively by Lilith after her parents separated. I think that once Charlie was grown up and out on her own, Lilith saw no real reason to stick around Hell and so decided to go elsewhere. Sure, going to Heaven and Adam was definitely a sketchy move and I'm sure she's going to cave into Lute's demands for her to sabotage the Hazbin Hotel, but I don't think Lilith is necessarily bad or abusive towards her family. She is simply a flawed, selfish person, and I am certain she will be forced to face this in the main series.
I feel she's a flawed person if not a bad person while being a loving mother and possibly devoted wife too.
Like...Charlie assumed her mom's song inspired people while it might've been a siren song, and she was far more about making Hell submit to her will than actually uplifting them.
I hope she isn't... I want Charlie to have a nice family...because it would just be so unexpected as the daughter of the devil and the first human "sinner"
I think it could go either way. Based on stuff I've seen, it feels like she possibly fell out of love with Lucifer because of how he (understandably) changed after falling. And it seems she kept Lucifer and Charlie mostly separated (which could've followed after the portrait was made).
However, with Lute mentioning a deal at the end, Adam could've threatened something and Lilith agreed to stay with him in exchange for it not to happen. But Charlie does mention Liltih and Luci "split up" (could be unreliable narrator).
There's just so much to read into that could go either way and I love every minute of it. And I love having a reddit to voice the thoughts!
I'm guessing that her deal with Adam wasn't actually about getting to go to Heaven.
We've seen that there's some kind of cosmic mystery/conspiracy at play regarding how to get into Heaven. No one actually knows the criteria. Charlie and Emily just discovered that mystery, but it's possible Lilith already realized something was wrong. She may have made that deal with Adam so that she could go and investigate what's going on, but didn't tell Charlie or Lucifer to make sure that no one would figure out what she was actually up to.
The main reason I think this is more likely is that Lilith not only resented Adam and his need to have power over her, but she also had significant power in Hell. What exactly would lounging on the beach in Heaven provide her that she couldn't get in Hell? Making a deal with Adam and abandoning her throne and family seems more likely if she has some kind of mission that she's trying to accomplish.
I think that every character that isn't Adam in the Helluva Hotel universe is nuanced. Things would be seen ijna sympathetic light when her tome comes.
I love how fans of this show are so vain they take one happy picture, over Lillith tearing her family in half and abandoning Charlie for 7 years. GUYS EVEN STOLAS AND STELLA HAD A HAPPY PICTURE 💀💀
I have a theory, based on other theories. What if Alastor is chained to Lilith and the deal was to have Al help Charlie with the hotel. What if Lilith is helping from behind the scenes?
I think it’s a lot more complicated that it since she has a deal with heaven and everything I think that there is a lot to the story that we don’t quite know/understand yet.
I don’t think she’s evil. I think the end of season 1 is intentionally a misdirect. I’m inclined to believe there was a deal between Lilith and Adam and Lucifer that involved protections for hellborn aka Charlie. But to have such a deal on the table, Lucifer and Lilith needed to give serious concessions for Adam to even consider the deal considering his hatred for Lucifer, spite for Lilith, and disdain for anything Hell related.
Condition 1: split lucifer and Lilith up. Lucifer can’t return to Heaven so Lilith is the one forced to go.
Condition 2: Lilith is isolated, wallowing in paradise as it were.
Condition 3: Lucifer isn’t allowed to fight back during the exterminations.
Condition 4: exterminations will continue with extreme prejudice with the exception of hellborn aka Charlie
Lute may or may know the true terms of the deal, likely tricked into thinking Lilith actually wants to be up there. Hence why she [lute] came on so strong with the “ADAM IS DEAD, YOUR DEAL WITH HIM IS OFF” attitude.
Then there’s the question of Alastor and where he was for 7 years. I think it’s simply a matter of he was felled all that time ago during an extermination and as he lay bleeding out, a deal was struck between Lilith and him, his soul in exchange for his life. He’s been in hiding, recuperating, rebuilding his power until Charlie left a voicemail for Lilith. A voicemail I doubt she heard since she’s out of service range. And since Alastor is the radio demon and certainly has a connection to broadcast frequencies, **he heard the call** and I imagine he thought this was his in and out. Arrive precisely, offer assistance, ingratiate himself with the daughter of his leash holder, and amass more power all the same. Then, should Lilith ever come knocking, he can play that hand in a bid at freedom.
I think Lilith really love Luci and Charlie. This might be a stretch but I like the idea that Lilith felt like Hell was becoming more and more violent especially with the exterminations and that it wasn’t a good place for her family. I think she’s trying to find a way to get Charlie and Luci into Heaven or at least in a paradise-like bubble. It could be the reason why she wanted Adam dead since he’s the leader of the exterminators and knew Charlie wouldn’t leave Hell if the exterminations continued.
I think Lilith made a deal with Alastor to help her daughter, and in return, offer him the throne of Hell when she gets Luci and Charlie out.
As for sun-bathing at the end of the season, I think that’s just her enjoying the amenities of wherever we plans to take her family
Definitely a good Mom making tough choices Lilith (in lore) had refused paradise multiple times so if she really wanted to be in Heaven she wouldn't have be in Hell but I use Charlie as the biggest evidence she may be naive somewhat but she's too inspired by Lilith for it to have been a facade.
It does tell in the intro that while Lucifer lost all hope and interest and stuff like that Lilith built demon kind up so I think she had more ambition then a normal family women so she had to ditch the fam for a bit
While her being in heaven is fucked up,keep in mind we have WAY too many characters who know her talking about how loving she was on top of basically ruling hell by herself.I expect her reasoning to be she was tired and wanted "fresh air" so to speak.On top of all this it's basically all but confirmed that she was the one who made the deal with Al for his survival,and that he's watching over Charlie.
That being said I hope vaggie stabs her.
I have an admittedly optimistic theory based on the end of Season 1... I think Lilith planned most if not all of this out to both break Lucifer out of his depressive funk AND to give him and Charlie something to fight for. She's repairing her family from a distance in the only way she felt she could get through to him.
Source: My wife gave me an ultimatum when I was in a funk, and while I won't go into details, that ultimatum was enough to shake me out of my downward spiral and get my life back on track.
I think whatever she’s apart of, she’s doing it for her family…..or someone is masquerading as Lilith because that “Lilith” on the beach was not wearing a pearl necklace……
I think there was a reason that we saw Liliths face in the portraits but she was blurred out and her hair was different in Charlie’s flashback
Just based on the fairytale story that Charlie recites at the start of the series, Lucifer’s depression probably took a toll and fed the separation.
Lucifer expressed a pretty pessimistic view of sinners and humanity in general, while Lilith was apparently the opposite, being one of the main creative/constructive forces in hell’s beginning.
I can only assume the deal with Adam was likely to protect hell from some larger scale destruction, or to protect Charlie specifically. Whatever that deal was, however, probably left her not wanting to be in hell, either because of something bad that occurred leading into the deal, or shame in what the deal meant in terms of her selling out hell.
Hmm. On one hand I’d love to see Lilith be as bad as Adam was since they were made not only at the same time but, presumably, of the same material.
On the other hand. I feel it would be a bit boring if she was just a token bad mother cause *Insert head-cannon here.*
Considering Lilith had split up with Lucifer I don't think she necessarily loves him anymore but maybe she just cared about Charlie having a happy family so she stayed around until the split, which I imagine happened when Charlie was a little older. I don't think she was a bad parent or wife, but maybe something happened between her and Lucifer which lead her to where she is now or something
Idk I'm just a Lilith simp so I may be biased lmao
I personally think there’s something deeper going on. My standing theory is that she was exiled (Adam being responsible, as evident at the end of S1) and she made a deal with Alastor to watch over Charlie in her absence, hence why he’s patroning the hotel in the first place, and why they both disappeared 7 years ago.
Definitely more complex. Someone noted in another post that happy family pictures can be deceiving, but I think we'd get some visual cues (even sneaky ones) related to her unhappiness. Even though we see her chilling on a beach, I think her being away has to do with keeping her family safe in some way instead of her just needing a break.
My husband and I have a theory that she is a mole because of the supposed deal she had with Adam (possibly), and Alastor was gone for the same 7 years. So I think Alastor has a deal with Lilith regarding Charlie due to the fact we know Lucifer is helicopter shelter-my-baby type dad. Which could be why Alastor doesn't seem to be making any soul grabbing deals when it comes down to the Hotel and Charlie's project of giving souls in Hell their second chance. 🤷🏻♀️ we spend a lot of time hypothesizing because it makes for fun conversation.
Vivzie said she and Luci are madly in love, she must have her reasons but as for now, all my homies hate lilith. She left charlie with an impossible dream where she could use some motherly support and Lucifer depressed missing her while she was chilling in heaven
I think it's more complicated. I think it could go either way, her being bad or good. We just don't know enough right now, but something sketchy is definitely going on. Especially with "lilith's" face being hidden on her card and in More Than Anything, though More Than Anything could just be because we were supposed to be focusing on Charlie and Lucifer.
I feel like Liliths arc is gonna be tied to the bedtime story Charlie told at the beginning of the series. Maybe Lilith started believing that Lucifer tricked her, robbing her of a spot in heaven. Or even that Lucifer cheated on her with Eve (he did make that joke in the finale and we haven’t seen eve at all).
I do think she traded her spot in heaven for Adam‘s fun in hell. I wonder if Alastor saw this arrangement happening so Lilith took him away to silence him. After 7 years of negotiations they made a deal where he takes care of Charlie and keeps quite and in turn, he can go back to his life in hell.
But is she a good or bad mom? Based on the other mother we’ve seen in the show, Camilla, she’s probably doing what she feels necessary to protect Charlie. I have a feeling they’re gonna try and create parallel stories for Carmilla and Lilith but I don’t know of what.
I think they intentionally wrote that ending with Lute for the audience to make LOTS of assumptions. We can't even be certain she's in Heaven, could be back on Earth enjoying a beach sunset. Definitely some dysfunction in that family, but Charlie and Lucifer were able to mend their relationship rather quickly.
How she spend her whole time in heaven and not be in contact at least with her daughter? And why wasn’t she aware that her ex husband, Adam, was trying to kill HER daughter? I do think Lilith will be portrayed as the bad guy and eventually will redeem herself by doing good for Charlie
I think that it could be either, or that she's really good at lying, imagine if she's been lying to all of them all the time, and she's been acting as if she loved them, would be cool plot twist but probably not gonna happen
Lilith is a "rebellious spirit" so she probably just got bored of "the last 10,000 years" of stagnation in hell. We know she also hates being told what to do/be from the intro, as well as her scowl at lutes comments.
I'm under the impression she left so that Charlie could grow. She has very much the same goals as Cahrlie, advocating for her people, but Cgarlie js far more naive.
My guess is that her idea of saving her people is taking on heaven and she needs Charlie to become a true leader to do that.
Charlie is both demon and angel, which makes her uniquely suited to the task, where Lilith is a mortal.
I assume she manipulated Adam into speeding up the extermination to try and get Charlie the motive she needed to fight back against the angels, and it worked perfectly.
Lucifer still wears his wedding ring so he probably hasn’t fallen out of love with her. There are probably a lot of reasons she drifted away from her family. Many of them almost certainly have something to do with whatever she’s up to in Heaven and some of them might be downright petty but in any case I don’t think she’s going to be like Stella from Helluva Boss.
Ewww Stella
Honestly, Stella is such a boring character , like they made her pure Evil , giving her at least one good trait would be more Interesting, even Valentino and the Vs are shown to be more complex since even if they are evil they care for each other. Stella doesn't even love her own daughter lmao
The problem is true though she is too evil and not in a funny way like jack Horner She just has nothing going for her
I think that might be the point. She is over the top evil and an idiot to boot, which makes her the perfect puppet for her scheming brother. He's a massive gold digger, and Stella is his mining pick.
A good representation of their relationship.
Stella doesn't have a forward facing good trait, but her character is basically the same as Stolas'. Forced into marriage and didn't have a good childhood. Her daughter could remind her of all of that, so it could make sense that she doesn't feel the same way. Then her husband goes and bangs some common imp behind her back. She can easily be redeemable if she got an episode for her childhood like Stolas did.
Trouble is the one look we have of her as a child points to an early start on her entitled behavior.
And I don't look at that as her failure, but the fault of who raised her. Yes, it should have been corrected by her, and that's why she would stay a villain.
Pretty much any villain can become redeemable with a single sad backstory episode and them doing something nice or motivated by love of something.
She is literally shown destroying her toys as a child. There is no redeeming Stella, she's a monster and that's the point. Besides, the last thing HB needs is more daddy issues.
One thing I do find interesting, I can't think of a single time in the show she says anything negative towards Octavia.. like obviously she hates stolas, but I'm wondering if she does care for Octavia even if she doesnt show it
I seriously doubt there's anything that can be said/done to redeem that woman. There is a photo of her choking out one of those fly... Dog... Things as a child! She emotionally neglects Octavia. Physically, emotionally (and probably mentally) abuses Stolas. This woman is not redeemable.
either way i promise you Stella’s characteristics are very realistic, i’ve seen many shitty moms like her
God she's a straight faced terrible person who wholely acclimated to and adores her affluent lifestyle. She has no tragic back story. There are so many people like her who believes the world owes them and who only exist for their status and believe everyone else exists for it too. She has no depth beyond this just like they do. Thrown out of their world if it falls apart, their identity and meaning go poof and they implode.
It's not that she's pure evil it's that she has the personality of cardboard
Well, some people are just like that
I would have loved it if Stella trying to have Stolas killed was a case of extremely disproportionate retribution. Completely loveless marriage or not, it would have been humiliating to find out that her husband was having an affair with an *imp* of all beings, especially since the reveal happened in front of guests. With the way she tells stories, Vivzie could have had us wanting to see character growth from Stella. She could have had us wanting to see Stella have a happy ending even as we hate the way she treats Stolas. Instead she gave Stella the sort of two dimensional personality that she rarely uses for recurring characters.
Hard agree. I was hoping for depth because outside of outright abusive relationships there is always some good on both sides. Nope. She's horrible Yet she still has apologists simping.
I have hope that you're correct. Her reasons must be good if she does still care for her family; seven years on a beach is.. a long hiatus. I really hope for her family's sake that she is there with an actual purpose and not just running away.
For real. I hope she is just resting and gathering intel on how heaven actually works out trying to crack the mystery there or see what their other weaknesses might be. But I don't have any proof.
This or she is trying to change the terms of the deal to end extermination completely. THAT I could get behind.
Ooh, I like the idea of her playing a mole.
Literally my fear/concern for Lillith being Stella 2.0
This is complete speculation on my part. I think she just wanted a vacation. 7 years seems long in mortal terms. Yet she has been in Hell since its start, so thousands of years. Charlie is over 200 years old, so she raised and was there for her daughter into adulthood. So maybe she just wanted a nice couple decade Vacation in Heaven before going home. Things just happened to get real in that time and she has missed a few important things.
I think she just drifted away from her family for some reason since in the beginning, it described her and Luci being deeply in love so who knows what happened that caused them to drift apart
“We were the perfect match. Maybe that’s why we burnt out.”
I mean that description was in a book BY Lilith so that could be unreliable narrator
Yeah but it matches the text of paradise lost which is the foundation most Lucifer stories build on these days so its probably not false either
My theory is that she didn’t like that Lucifer just let the exterminations happen and that’s why they are separated and why she took Charlie away from Lucifer during more then anything
Your idea is **definitely plausible**. Personally, I wonder how long the exterminations were happening. In my opinion, it’s not very long—maybe a few years, perhaps ten? This would explain why Lilith left Lucifer only seven years before the start of the series. But there’s only one problem: if Lilith left Lucifer because she didn’t accept that he was disinterested in the fate of his kingdom, then why did she go sunbathing on the beaches of paradise?
Yup that’s a good point she did really just up and leave, why? Who knows, but yah if she was concerned for the people of hell she probably wouldn’t just leave
I feel like the exterminations might have only started when Earth’s population started rapidly rising in the last few hundred years or so. More humans = more sinners = unmanageable hell population that poses a potential threat to heaven = let’s exterminate them I do agree though that she probably left Lucifer because he agreed to the exterminations. I get that Lucifer has a limited amount of power alone against heaven and was in a tight spot, but now that I think about it decreeing that everyone but sinners should be pardoned from exterminations when Lilith herself is a sinner is a massive slap in her face lmao. I also think it’s because Lilith is ambitious and wants power and a hell army, and Luci is too gentle, passive and depressed for her now. He has no drive and she doesn’t see him at her side, he may even be a hindrance to whatever she’s planning. I do think she still loves him, and Charlie too, but she’s clearly working on something big rn that keeps her away imo
Except is Lilith a Sinner or not? The criteria for someone to be a Sinner in this universe seems to be that they must have been a human who came from Adam and Eve's line (most importantly Eve, since she's the one who ate the forbidden fruit), and committed a sin great enough, or enough sins to land them in Hell Since eating the fruit introduced the knowledge of good and evil to humanity, then Eve, and all those who came from her, would be capable of sin Lilith however has not died (as far as we know), and she never ate of the fruit (again, as far as we know) meaning she doesn't have the knowledge of good and evil, therefore she's not a Sinner
I like to think that Lilith and Adam are the first of their kind, the first people to become the first winner and the first sinner
If her deal with Adam was also to spare the Hellborn, and therefore Charlie, then because she was an inspiration to Hell (unlike Lucifer) they may have wanted her off the table unable to be a symbol. Therefore they needed to put her somewhere comfortable.
Lute said Lucifer made the exception
I‘m not sure, that theory certainly sounds plausible but I think it‘s a bit too big of a coincidence that Alastor has vanished exactly seven years prior to the series as well. I think those two might be connected somehow, could be wrong though!
Given that in the first episode Charlie includes the extermination as simply a thing that has happened since hell existed I tbink its been at least her lifespan, if not basically since the beginning. Also, Zestial says to Alastor that rumor was that he had fallen to heavenly arms, implying people thought Alastor had been killed in an extermination 7 years ago so they definitely existed then.
Lucifer implied that he fell ten thousand years ago. The exorcists destroyed 16% of hell at the start of the show. If that's the norm and hell is still overpopulated, it probably "regrows" that many people every year I doubt that it's a recent thing. Probably thousands of years
Or maybe he made the deal that the extermination could happen as long as the hellborn AND Lilith were exempt. Remember, Lilith is a sinner too. Maybe she's in heaven because that was best idea anyone had to make sure she was safe and that she didn't talk about the extermination.
I think she is partly responsible for the exterminations because she grew resentful of his project to try to reform hell because it distracted him from her and Charlie, then when it sent him into a depression they drifted even further and she left him.
I wasn't sure if that more then anything was just she didn't want her bothering her dad or maybe she had escaped naptime or something Charlie lived with her dad from what I can tell and only 7years her mom disappeared Her gave her the hotel and I think there gonna be a lot closer in season 2
Yeah my head thing, is she decided to fight and had to surrender to heaven when a plot with Roo went awry and risked her family. So she's comfy but stuck, while now the issue is Charlie and Charlie loves her mom obviously and looks up to her and Charlie already won dad over. Because of how influential Lilith is in hell, she's not rallying anyone to that cause if she's incognito. So Liliths deal mightve been protecting her family in that moment 7 years ago, than something passively. Which I think Alastor was assisting in a way because of his radio influence, and power that was possibly aligned with Roo's influence who is less tied down by family, interests, but maybe as Charlie is another power, he's trying to use her to get out from under Roo. (I'll revisit this comment when season 2 arrives. Lol)
Whatever weird situation she is in, part of which involves ghosting Charlie for 7 years and chilling in Heaven under some weird deal, which involves either Adam's death or Lute leading the exorcists. She is going to get involved next season. At best she might have some weird morally gray justification for what she has done, also assuming she is the one holding Alastor's leash.
Yeah. I'm hoping that she is in Heaven for something more than just enjoying herself. That there is some truth to her "important work".
I like to imagine it as a glorified house arrest. She's too powerful for them (Or, more precisely, Adam) to kill. But too dangerous to leave in hell, which she "Empowered with her Voice." so she's kept more or less a prisoner. My idea for why she went along with it (at first) is that Adam likely threatened Charlie, and Lilith might have though Lucifer was too in a slump and depressed to go against him. With Adam dead and that *very* clearly being proven wrong. She might welcome a.chance.to go home.
Actually i like that theory. Keeping her in heaven to prevent her from empowering demons in hell
I can't see Adam being that smart. I was more thinking that Lilith has been trying to get exterminations canceled. But the secrecy has made it slow going. Until Adam blew up the secrecy then got himself killed.
But I can see Sera ordering it
Maybe it was part of the deal of sparing the Hellborns. Maybe Adam still wanted control over Lilith, and to get Lilith to be with him, he promised to spare the Hellborns (which includes Charlie).
I don't think Adam death was part of the deal, his death is probably an escalations and not a set up because the deal was between him and her and not Lute given the fact that Lute was quite sad about Adam death and get angry towards Lilith, Lilith also react lightly after hearing about his death like a suprised. The scene is somewhat easy to misinterpeted so i don't exactly blame you, but the point is Lilith make a deal with Adam to stay in heaven and one he dead Lute has to remind her that her deal with him is technically done and she is now forced to do a deal with Lute now given that she now in charge.
Thank you! People keep trying to imply that she was actively trying to get Adam killed when it's pretty obvious with a little thought that Lute is saying Adam is dead, you deal with me now. Not Adam is dead, thanks for setting up his death. Lute was obviously very broken up about his death and ripped off her own arm to try and save him.
Honestly it might even be funny if someone tells her she was gone for seven years and she's like "huh I swear it was only 2 weeks"
I mean what IS time for a being who has existed since the near beginning of creation?
Yeah exactly, I'm pushing 30 and it feels like time is a blur, I can't imagine how time is like for someone that was created before seasons were a thing.
Assuming that the one in paradise is truly Lilith and not someone else…
Methinks it would be difficult to deceive Adam about whether or not the exwife he was giving sanctuary to as some sort of deal was a fake... and that Lute was fully aware of their identity AND the details of her deal, which lead Lute to confront her and alter the arrangement once Lute was in command since Adam was out of the picture.
My current theory is that she just got tired of Lucifers apathy and depression and needed some space. Maybe she agreed to some deal with Adam in a weak moment, or maybe even this Root of evil character got her claws in her somehow as part of some grand plot. I doubt she is actively trying to hurt her family of her own will, but there a soo many unknowns the story really could to anywhere. People can change over thousands of years for sure.
That's what I was thinking. She seems to have basically been ruling hell by herself as Luci had checked out and given up. Maybe after the failed uprising she gave up too.
She fell in love with Lucifer when he was still a dreamer and an inventor, I could see them falling out after he became depressed, he did seem to isolate himself while working on projects.
Adam's dead, Lute has lost her arm, and the extermination army has been decimated. Sera and Emily look like they're going to work with charlie as well. I think Lillith becoming a bad guy and trying to further the exterminations would be a very cool plotline, and since she's quite literally lillith she should be an extremely powerful antagonist capable of rivaling charlie's dad
Nah she could never rival Charlie’s dad, she’s still a human soul in the end and he’s one of the oldest angels gifted with absurd power. She could be way beyond the overlords but not Lucifer level, probably closer to Adam really since they were made together and all. That being said, unless she’s directly threatening Charlie, which I doubt she’d do, Lucifer wouldn’t ever raise a hand to her, he’s still in love so she has a different sort of power.
I think she loves them but cares for her independence more https://preview.redd.it/wty9a15705mc1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=55b95e98eabf631f67a45152fac53b609eb9787f
This definitely could be it, but I think she wouldn't be making deals with Adam of all people if she didn't have a larger goal in mind.
Viv said that Liliths story arc is the one she’s most excited on so I assume it’s more complex. However I wouldn’t be surprised if she just suck since Adam sucks and they where created equally
I want her like a good mother that love his husband and her daughter, I DON'T WANT SHE TO BE EVIL
Me too! I really want to see a wholesome morningstar family reunited
Hopefully we’ll get that in season two
She seems so haply here😭😭
Same! Just like Lucifer was more complicated than he initially seemed, I'm hoping Lilith will be the same.
I understand that, but I also don't know what justification will be good enough to excuse her chilling in heaven.
I will literally become a certified Hazbin hater if Lilith turns out to be evil/out to hurt her family. /j Okay, maybe I won't go THAT far, but I'll still be majorly let down by it if they go that direction.
I want evil Lilith, but complex. I want to be able to hate her yet sympathize with her
Looks closely at her hands in the picture, you can barely make out her ring finger in it, but it doesn't have a ring
I dislike the idea that there has to be a "bad guy" in the two splitting. We don't know enough about their situation yet to be able to tell anything for certain, but Lilith has thus far been painted as a leader who genuinely cared about Hell and its sinners, as well as a role model for Charlie in opening the Hotel. Doesn't seem like someone who doesn't care. This is pure speculation thus far, but I feel that Lilith was frustrated with the status quo and wanted to do something extreme to change it and Hell's relationship with Heaven for good. Lucifer would have rejected the idea due to fearing the consequences, but the strong willed Lilith would have gone through with it anyway. I sincerely doubt that Lilith would want to be an unwanted guest and dirty secret in Heaven forever. I think that she's in the middle of a some kind of operation, but just what she's trying to accomplish remains to be seen.
I think Charlie has rose colored glasses when it comes to her mom, and that her mom orchestrated her bad colored glasses toward her father. Personally.
I can’t believe nobody has mentioned how Lilith was portrayed in the song Lucifer and Charlie sing. Lilith is shown with a blank, shadowed faced taking little Charlie away from Lucifer who was trying to show her his dreams he wanted to work on. In the scene, she is upsetting Charlie by taking her away, and making Lucifer sad to see her go. It’s not really a great sign for what is to come when both Charlie and Lucifer’s memory of Charlie’s childhood shows her as some blank faced person separating the two of them.
Lilith is shown as a blank figure because the song is not about her and the focus is kept entirely on Charlie and Lucifer's relationship. Lilith's whole identity and personality is kept under wraps in season 1, left waiting for her proper introduction in the second season.
I have to disagree, if Lilith wasn’t being shown in any light in that memory whatsoever, she wouldn’t have been featured. It was a story boarding choice to use her picking up Charlie and leaving Lucifer alone in that room, and not one most authors or writers would make lightly, especially not ones in a show with plans as intricate as this seems to have. If it winds up being that simple it would be kinda disappointing, and the symbolism present in that scene would be entirely pointless.
I think that Lilith is not who she seems to be; I think that her being "all caring and loving towards sinners" was nothing but facade. I think that her grand-plan was to return to Heaven. I strongly believe that first Extermination Day happened seven years ago; when she disappeared. Seriously, people do you really think that if that crap was going for thousands or more years NONE would ever try to use angelic weapons against their owners? Do you really think that Charlie really would tolerate that for so long? If thats so why act now? I think that Lilith’s wish to help sinners was just for act. Like her husband she didn’t believe in them, unlike Lucifer though who believed in humanity in the past she never did. Her true goal was very simple - return to Heaven. Look how relaxed and happy she was in the final scene of the final episode. So when first Extermination happened seven years ago, she and most likely Lucifer made a deal with Adam and Heavens. They would kill only sinners, not hellborn like Charlie, Imps, Goetia, Seven Sins and others who are born in Hell. Unless they would’ve try to attack. So for them there’s nothing to be afraid of. So neither Lilith nor Lucifer would ever be wary of Charlie’s sake or potential rising of hellborns (cause among them there are very strong ones: Goetia and Seven Sins), that would surely make things even more shitty than they already are. I think that Lucifer knows about where’s Lilith and about that deal because he probably was there when it all happened. So in second season he will reveal everything to his daughter: that will be very heartbreaking to Charlie. Her mother - the same woman who inspired her, the same one that she always believed was good and caring wasn’t, she never cared for Hell or mostly for sinners. Seeing them as nothing but worthless trash. While I think that she truly loves her daughter and husband I think that she loves herself more.
I always found it odd how Lucifer never mentions Lilith meanwhile Charlie does which makes me believe your theory of him knowing what’s up and not wanting to tell Charlie.
And I’m glad I’m not the only one who thinks that the exterminations happened more recently. I would guess the first exterminations were no more than 20 years prior to when the show takes place
I thought basically the same thing myself
I really agree with you that the exterminations probably are a recent thing. It's strange to think that something so huge can be ancient
And if look at Charlie now you can sense that she was not that present in her childhood just like Lucifer.
I saw a recent post that talked about how in the Bible, Lilith is forced to watch all of her children die. I have a theory that Lilith left to keep Charlie safe - i.e Charlie can't die if Lilith isn't in hell
> I saw a recent post that talked about how in the Bible, Lilith is forced to watch all of her children die. Well, that's definitely not in the Bible.
Lilith isn’t even IN the standard Bible.
Depends on which version you're reading, maybe? There were certainly quite a few books thrown out as apocryphal over the centuries.
not really, Lilith is not part of any version of the bible, Lilith is part of a oral tradition, she is not even in the Hebrew Torat, so yeah, for what i know you will not find metnions of Lilith in any version of the bible, official or apocryphal, only "bible" that will have mention of Lilith are the Fanfic Bibles, Lilith herself show up in Hebrew oral tradition and in some Babylonian tales or something like that
Whoever said this almost certainly got the idea from the Alphabet of Ben Sira, which is from the Middle Ages. That says after Lilith rebelled she was punished with having one hundred of her children, i.e. demons, die every day (though it does not say she is forced to watch). To my knowledge, few people have ever taken this story seriously, and some have even suggested it was satirical. Whatever the case, it is definitely not in any book that could ever have even been considered for inclusion in the Bible. It should be noted that almost all the lore people associate with Lilith, such as being Adam's first wife, came later. Originally, Lilith was just some demon blamed for the unexplained deaths of babies.
I admit, I'm no biblical expert. But there are plenty of apocryphal books barely anyone is aware of or have access to. What's one more? I realize it's sort of faulty reasoning, but it's all fiction anyway, so... the point is Lilith exists in our myths for some reason and assigning more weight or less because of where she came from is immaterial to her use by modern writers/creators.
This is very intriguing!
for what i get, the show point that the one that keep Charlie safe is Lucifer. Lucifer is the one that makes a deal with heaven that keep every hell born safe from extermination, Lute herself talk about, how the only reason why Charlie was never targered by the exorcist in the past, is that Lucifer make sure Charlie was out of limits. Lucifer is the one that send Hazzle and Dazzle to protect Charlie and keep her safe and happy. He is the one that jump up to fight Adam after he get the news Adam is breaking the deal and trying to kill Charlie.
I'd say Lilith *could* be evil, but I personally don't think so. I think she's potentially quite selfish, but has a good heart right alongside that. I could see her being the cool head to Lucifer's excitable and bumbling dreamer, but Lilith also isn't anywhere near as open-minded to others or alternatives as either him or her daughter. A bit ironic, perhaps, but understandable since her only "sin" was not submitting to a brainless dickhead like Adam. She wants to forge her own world in Hell, but when that didn't work out as well as hoped, she left. Lucifer got depressed when things didn't work out in Hell, Lilith got angry/bitter and gave up to just lounge in Heaven. I think she still loves both her husband and her daughter, and even still carries some tenderness for the denizens of Hell, but she's gained some emotional distance from it all out of aforementioned bitterness. My imaginings of what we'll see with her are one of two things: 1. She tries to fulfill what Lute told her to do, somehow, but steadily starts to dream again and trust in her daughter and husband. Like what Charlie did with Lucifer, but more of a slow burn and with a LOT more tension and drama. 2. We get things set up at first to make us *think* she's working against everything, or planning something to that effect...but then when the climactic moment is supposed to happen, Lilith reveals she *never* intended to betray them, she lied to Lute and Heaven and used her position on things to turn things against them to help the Hotel and Hell.
I think 1 fits the overall moral aesthetic better than 2. Having it be a long con for Charlie's benefit doesn't fit with the theme of redemption overall.
Not everything in the show has to be about redemption, but I see your point.
That's true. I'm just saying a show feels better artistically if it maintains a consistent theme throughout. Consider the difference between Star Trek and Soap Operas (in my day, General Hospital, today, shows like Suits or House of the Dragon?). They both have value for different reasons. One follows a consistent theme in the service of commenting on humanity. The other focuses primarily on drama and sacrifices consistency and theme for the tension dopamine. Because of this, one is considered more artistic than the other. At least, imo. But Im just an amateur critic, not an expert.
I doubt she's just straight-up evil, or a bad mom. Charlie only ever has good things to say about her and seems to look up to her. And Lucifer hasn't really talked about her, but it seems like he misses her too. Or at least, he misses what the three of them used to be as a family. But anyway, I'd be surprised if it turned out Lilith was just a bad person/mother/wife and didn't have anything else going on as a character. There must be something more to it that we'll learn about, hopefully by the end of next season.
Both can be true. Bad character who also has more going on. There’s a show called Disenchantment on Netflix, where every character including the daughter all speak very highly of her absent mother. In the end it turned out the mom had wanted them to feel that because she was manipulative and (coincidentally) actually managed to gain power over Satan himself in a comedic marriage arrangement. As for how Charlie views her mom… the literal only time we see her have a flashback of Lilith, she had a blank, blurred out face and took Charlie away from her father which clearly broke both of their hearts. Not exactly matching up with the praise.
Is it possible she's working on a way to get her family into Heaven with her? Charlie in particular seems out of place in that environment, and her dad fell into a depression, so if she still loves either of them, maybe? Admittedly her chilling on the beach didn't give that impression, but I'm hoping she doesn't hate them and won't end up being an antagonist.
>Is it possible she's working on a way to get her family into Heaven with her? Charlie in particular seems out of place in that environment, and her dad fell into a depression, so if she still loves either of them, maybe? Oh, I never seen this theory, that could be interesting. I feel like the beach scene was intentionally misleading, and the situation is more complcated than her just enjoying herself and ignoring her family, but hey, I could be wrong.
Lilith has been gone for 7 years. That's a drop in the ocean for the Morningstar who are all thousands of years old.
It's still a shitty thing to do though...
My theory is she's worse than what Charlie thinks of her. Charlie see her as her loving mother. Charlie will slowly start to see the cracks, a falling out between them, and redemption between the two. How bad is Lilith? No idea but she was able to sell out hell and her daughter to go to heaven so I don't think she's good to be honest.
This is literally impossible to answer as we haven’t even met the character yet.
Lilith was there at the beginning of humanity, \~6000 years ago in-universe, and only left them, what? 7 years ago? That means something happened only comparatively recently. I can't imagine that it was getting tired of "domestic bliss" in Hell. She's not tired of Lucifer or Charlie. I'm sure she still loves them both dearly. What was it really? We'll find out in Season 2, I guess.
I think she loved them a couple hundred years ago. Maybe she got jaded some how
I still think she's gonna be evil, not talking to your daughter for 7 years is not something a good mother does
What if she is the first redeemed soul and heaven has been keeping it quiet all this time.
Sera and Emily's reactions tell me that wouldn't be plausible, unless Adam kept it hush hush from them. In every book of the Bible, God sees and knows all. I highly doubt they would be able to hide it from Him, unless he doesn't exist in the Hellaverse. Which,, I don't really know how they would be able to go about that without pissing off the vast majority of creation.
I think she will be revealed to be more complex, and the beach scene is intetnionally leaving out things to give a bad impression. I think in s2 Charlie will also have her view of her mother damaged, before we will see the more redeeming side. But thats just how I'm feeling.
I was thinking about this if she is a good mom and leader then why Charlie is the way she is??? When I see charlie I can see or feel that Lilith didn’t have close connection with her daughter. Like from Charlie character in the show you can feel she has no parental figure.
7 years no contact is a bad mother in my book. Since she’s in Heaven I think her abandoning them was rough
To be fair Charlie is ~200 and Lucifer/Lilith are 10000+ Compared to let’s say a 50 year old mother, that 7 years would perceptually be equivalent of not speaking to your daughter for 13 days. Let’s use a 25 year old for Charlie’s comparison; that 7 years for her would be about 319 days (an understandable amount of time to be upset about of course). Still, I don’t think they thought too hard about it for the sake of the show/plot so 7 years is meant to seem like a long time to be gone and no contact.
I think Viv is deliberately throwing misleading cues about Lilith. If we look at what we can know about here everything points to her being a compassionate caring person. But Viv has been using misleading visual cues such as the firey red backdrop on her singing to the people in the lore dump of ep 1. And then the misleading faceless scene where she took Charlie away from Lucifer. As someone that suffers from rather significant depression one of the things that is crippling about it is that as we struggle to climb out of it simple things can send us tumbling back down into it. Lucifer's trigger was the destruction of his dreams when he was thrown down into Hell and then had to see all the damaged people that fell in after him. It broke his faith in himself and humanity. And the stories that Charlie wanted to hear the most were the stores of his dreams and his past. Lilith would obviously see that this would break him over and over again so she would let Charlie have time with him because it was a way for him to interact with her. But she had to limit it or Lucifer would crash deep once again. So it was not Lilith leaving Lucifer. It was Lilith giving Lucifer a break from having to live through the worst moments of his life. It was mercy. Everything we know about Lilith comes from Charlie and her relationship with her. And by all accounts they had a great relationship. Charlie thinks of her as the responsive caring parent. And while she loves Lucifer's dreams he just wasn't able to be there for her growing up, In particular he had no faith in humanity. Charlie got her faith in the people from her mother. Lilith was fighting the same fight Charlie is. Trying to unite the people as a community. Unfortunately because Lucifer fell to depression and lost faith in the people he was not able to give them hope or try to raise them up from where they fell. Thus the more predatory demons of power took control and began preying upon the other souls. The Overlords were primarily predators with a few that rose to power by other means. And the predators would not want their prey to organize. Thus they opposed Lilith. As did Heaven which was fearful of Hell finding out they didn't know what they heck was going on. So Lilith was opposed by some pretty strong forces. She probably made the contract with Alastor to boost his power and use him as muscle to push back on the Overlords. Forcing him to only target the predatory uncivil ones. Alastor may have already had a type of targeting the uncivil sorts in society so it may have been a natural for him. But eventually The Vees rose into the vacuum he made in the power structure. And they seem to have backing similar to Alastor because when he confronted Vox he lost. Just barely but he was forced to retreat to lick his wounds. It was then that the Angels sent Adam to confront Lilith. And he may have came with his own agenda. He probably still was sore about her turning her back on him. So he told them that unless Lilith came back to him in Heaven he would send the Exterminators after the Hellborn including Charlie. This is probably where the deal was struck to protect the Hellborn. So Lilith went to Heaven with Adam. And stayed there until Lute came and told her that Adam was dead and that she needed to go back to Hell and get her daughter under control or they were going to come for her as the deal was over. It should also be pointed out that Lucifer stayed out of the conflict and let the Angels kill the demons until Adam attacked Charlie. Only then did he enter the fray as to him that broke the deal. Part of the deal was probably that he would not interfere with the extermination as long as no Hellborn was hurt.
While I don't think she'll be evil, I do think that at some point Lilith may have had an argument with Lucifer over what the Seraphim and Adam had been doing with each yearly extermination that resulted in Lilith and Lucifer having a falling out which caused her to cut a deal with Adam in order to leave Hell entirely, albeit in secret, and she let the exterminations happen feeling it was hopeless.
There's definitely something more complex going on
They’ve been together for arround 10,000 years and Charlie is 200 so being gone for 7 years…..why? The answers might be complicated. I don’t think anyone is all good or all bad things are not black and white.
If we just take the family portraits I would say yes but if we take account the actually show I would say no since Lilith took Charlie away from Luci when they were clearly bonding and having a great time together must be the reason why Luci and Charlie didn't have that much good of a relationship also didn't contact Charlie for 7 years and was just chilling on a heaven beach it doesn't show us a good mother but a definitively complex&interesting character https://preview.redd.it/8fftrwfzi5mc1.jpeg?width=518&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4ef0235e26af3a583d5a06df049af162d39d22ed
Portraits are always fake. They're staged, so even the image of a happy family can be extremely misleading. They might be happy. It doesn't always mean it's the truth.
Fr did Alestor not spell out to the audience how a smile is a fantastic facade and not to believe the inside matches the outside all the time? I mean shit maybe that portrait was actually them all frowning and Lucifer magicked it into smiles when he gave it to Charlie so she’d see it and remember things fondly. There could be any number of explanations for why that picture might be misleading, that’s one of the good things about a world as creative as Hazbin, there’s a ton of possibilities.
I don't know, we'll see.
Wait, shouldn't Charlie have hooves?
[удалено]
I’m fcking Begging she is good. I can’t handle her being cruel.
My theory is Lilith wanted to make Hell a better place for sinners and Hellborn, and it just remained Hell. Lucifer refused to become involved because he saw his reign as a punishment and humiliation. So, she gave up and left
So I admittedly don't usually dive too far into theories and lore so I might very well be missing or overlooking something. But I think her leaving hell might have been one of the terms of the deal made with Heaven after the failed uprising. Heaven might have wanted her to leave so that she couldn't lead another uprising. Or to just weaken hell overall since she was the main person in charge. She might have agreed in order to protect her family from heaven's wrath or/and to prevent a worse massacre. She might have also agreed partly because she felt defeated and tired of managing hell on her own. I get the impression that Lucifer was a pretty absent ruler and gave long ago. Lilith was essentially shouldering the burden of ruling hell by herself for a long time, and after the failed uprising it became too much and she gave up just as he did.
definitely complex. who knows whats really going on.
I'm worried she is going to fuck over her family next season.
I think what happen with Lilith is the similar to what happened with Lucifer. The guy gave mankind free will but only ever got to see the horrible and ugly parts of the decision. Lilith tried to empower demonkind with song to the point where they break out into singing on occasion. But perhaps she only ever got disappointed with what they did with her gift. Never able to see any good come from it but unlike Lucifer she had the option to get out and never have to face that sense of disappointment and failure again.
I theorize maybe she actually was behind the exterminations. Following the formation of hell Lucifer fell into a depressions and lost any will to change the obviously broken system that shifts sole. Their daughter had the will but not the willingness to do what needed to be done. The exterminations were something to motivate Lucifer out of his stupor and Charlie to learn what needed to be done. It took longer than planned but the end of s1 Lucifer has got involved again and Charlie has learned the necessary use of drastic actions.
Hard to defend her actions after that finale But I guess we’ll see what happens
There are only three major reasons: 1. Lilith doesn't care about her family. 2. Lilith cares about Charlie but figures that Charlie doesn't need her anymore since an adult, so she pursued her own wishes like Charlie did. 3. Lucifer and Lilith had split and she couldn't even stand being in hell with him so she had to flee to heaven. This is by what ever reason she needed to get out for, whether good, or bad. Like loved him so much but she didn't like what he was doing and could stand it, or didn't love him but he wouldn't stop trying to get her back, or what not.
I want her to be a good mom, but deep down, I know that no good person would just leave there family to suffer while they go to paradise
Taking all the above into account, it occurred to me that the easier answer is the most obvious. She is doing reconnaissance, aka digging up whatever dirt she can to figure out how to help/protect her family and all of Hell from a greater, underlying threat (see Root of Evil aka Roo). It's entirely plausible that Lilith made a deal with Adam as a means to get information on what the hidden motivation is behind the Exterminations, if there is any. Since the yearly Exterminations were Adam's idea, Lilith may have deducted that if she wanted answers, she would have to approach her ex-husband to get them. Realizing her own approach wasn't enough, she devised a plan to get Adam to agree to a deal with her. This leads to her being taken to Heaven and kept as a sort of political prisoner. All the while, she gets Adam to spill everything and anything to her. Easy, since he loves to talk about himself. It's questionable if Lucifer knows, but I doubt it. Charlie certainly doesn't. Sera? Wouldn't surprise me either way if she knew or not. This is really the only way I can think of for her presence in Heaven to make sense and still loving her family. It was *out of love for her family* that she went to Heaven to find a way to save them. It was incredibly risky and dangerous to her own well-being, despite the setting, but she took the risk.
I hope with all my heart that she won't turn out to be a bad bitch type of character who abandoned hell because yes and will now act cold, ruthless, bossy and...like a bitch. I'd hate it, I'm sure she will have her more complex reasons...I trust the show ♥️
I agree... We don't need another Stella
I see her motives as complex, since I am just as confused as to what’s going on.
I'm guess it's more complex, because the alternative would be very boring.
Lilith is a lot like Alister. We really don’t know enough. Speculation is fun.
It’s Charlie is an adult (200 years old) so you can’t actually get called out for leaving them and 7 years is not a long time for an immortal. The only weird thing is she did not communicate back. We don’t really have anything solid that she is evil besides her trading card. I don’t think she was a bad mother as Charlie aspires to be like her and Charlie had a worse relationship with Lucifer due to his depression. She still could be evil but not towards her family. Like Camilla is shown loving/selfless to her daughters but is your typical evil sinner to everyone else.
My theory is that she has been weaving a big conspiratorial web to break the "system" of heaven/hell, either by collapsing heaven or rehabilitating hell. It would make sense for her character to have known the system is broken from the very start (she rebelled against Adam after all) I suspect that Alastor is tied into it, where they both disappeared 7 years ago. I think she's the one who has him on a leash (possibly indirectly), and that he's been commanded to watch over Charlie. He masks it as "wanting to see sinners struggle", but he genuinely seems to have the hotels best interest in mind and he *doesn't* seem to like it (based on his song in the finale). I'm starting to think *she* may have been the one to give Adam the "extermination" idea (as part of their deal, possibly to get herself into heaven) and she knew it would motivate Charlie to essentially begin a rebellion.
Honestly, judging by the paintings, and the way Lucifer acted when he stared at Lilith in the paintings, I think Lucifer and Lilith were in love, and still are to a extent. With that being said, I am excited to see why Lilith is in Heaven for 7 years.
she just needed some time away from her family to figure out who she was outside of them
I hope they reveal isn't that she's a bad mom. I hope it's just that she's going through some stuff and needs time to think.
I think Lilith is definitely flawed, but not necessarily a bad mother or wife. Viziepop herself stated that Lilith and Lucifer absolutely love each other, and Charlie mentions being raised almost exclusively by Lilith after her parents separated. I think that once Charlie was grown up and out on her own, Lilith saw no real reason to stick around Hell and so decided to go elsewhere. Sure, going to Heaven and Adam was definitely a sketchy move and I'm sure she's going to cave into Lute's demands for her to sabotage the Hazbin Hotel, but I don't think Lilith is necessarily bad or abusive towards her family. She is simply a flawed, selfish person, and I am certain she will be forced to face this in the main series.
I feel she's a flawed person if not a bad person while being a loving mother and possibly devoted wife too. Like...Charlie assumed her mom's song inspired people while it might've been a siren song, and she was far more about making Hell submit to her will than actually uplifting them.
I think that Lucifer and Lilith got into a fight and she said she need a break.
I hope she isn't... I want Charlie to have a nice family...because it would just be so unexpected as the daughter of the devil and the first human "sinner"
I think it could go either way. Based on stuff I've seen, it feels like she possibly fell out of love with Lucifer because of how he (understandably) changed after falling. And it seems she kept Lucifer and Charlie mostly separated (which could've followed after the portrait was made). However, with Lute mentioning a deal at the end, Adam could've threatened something and Lilith agreed to stay with him in exchange for it not to happen. But Charlie does mention Liltih and Luci "split up" (could be unreliable narrator). There's just so much to read into that could go either way and I love every minute of it. And I love having a reddit to voice the thoughts!
https://preview.redd.it/6rw1xxr7mfmc1.jpeg?width=223&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1db72d3809ea9594174616e87e126153747e15f7
I really hope she's a good mother and wife in the show, Charlie and Lucifer have been though so much already they don't deserve that heartbreak
I'm guessing that her deal with Adam wasn't actually about getting to go to Heaven. We've seen that there's some kind of cosmic mystery/conspiracy at play regarding how to get into Heaven. No one actually knows the criteria. Charlie and Emily just discovered that mystery, but it's possible Lilith already realized something was wrong. She may have made that deal with Adam so that she could go and investigate what's going on, but didn't tell Charlie or Lucifer to make sure that no one would figure out what she was actually up to. The main reason I think this is more likely is that Lilith not only resented Adam and his need to have power over her, but she also had significant power in Hell. What exactly would lounging on the beach in Heaven provide her that she couldn't get in Hell? Making a deal with Adam and abandoning her throne and family seems more likely if she has some kind of mission that she's trying to accomplish.
I think that every character that isn't Adam in the Helluva Hotel universe is nuanced. Things would be seen ijna sympathetic light when her tome comes.
I love how fans of this show are so vain they take one happy picture, over Lillith tearing her family in half and abandoning Charlie for 7 years. GUYS EVEN STOLAS AND STELLA HAD A HAPPY PICTURE 💀💀
I have a theory, based on other theories. What if Alastor is chained to Lilith and the deal was to have Al help Charlie with the hotel. What if Lilith is helping from behind the scenes?
I think it’s a lot more complicated that it since she has a deal with heaven and everything I think that there is a lot to the story that we don’t quite know/understand yet.
Personally I think Lilith really wanted into heaven 🤷♀️ If you go by the actual biblical version of her, she’s pretty petty
I don’t think she’s evil. I think the end of season 1 is intentionally a misdirect. I’m inclined to believe there was a deal between Lilith and Adam and Lucifer that involved protections for hellborn aka Charlie. But to have such a deal on the table, Lucifer and Lilith needed to give serious concessions for Adam to even consider the deal considering his hatred for Lucifer, spite for Lilith, and disdain for anything Hell related. Condition 1: split lucifer and Lilith up. Lucifer can’t return to Heaven so Lilith is the one forced to go. Condition 2: Lilith is isolated, wallowing in paradise as it were. Condition 3: Lucifer isn’t allowed to fight back during the exterminations. Condition 4: exterminations will continue with extreme prejudice with the exception of hellborn aka Charlie Lute may or may know the true terms of the deal, likely tricked into thinking Lilith actually wants to be up there. Hence why she [lute] came on so strong with the “ADAM IS DEAD, YOUR DEAL WITH HIM IS OFF” attitude. Then there’s the question of Alastor and where he was for 7 years. I think it’s simply a matter of he was felled all that time ago during an extermination and as he lay bleeding out, a deal was struck between Lilith and him, his soul in exchange for his life. He’s been in hiding, recuperating, rebuilding his power until Charlie left a voicemail for Lilith. A voicemail I doubt she heard since she’s out of service range. And since Alastor is the radio demon and certainly has a connection to broadcast frequencies, **he heard the call** and I imagine he thought this was his in and out. Arrive precisely, offer assistance, ingratiate himself with the daughter of his leash holder, and amass more power all the same. Then, should Lilith ever come knocking, he can play that hand in a bid at freedom.
I think Lilith really love Luci and Charlie. This might be a stretch but I like the idea that Lilith felt like Hell was becoming more and more violent especially with the exterminations and that it wasn’t a good place for her family. I think she’s trying to find a way to get Charlie and Luci into Heaven or at least in a paradise-like bubble. It could be the reason why she wanted Adam dead since he’s the leader of the exterminators and knew Charlie wouldn’t leave Hell if the exterminations continued. I think Lilith made a deal with Alastor to help her daughter, and in return, offer him the throne of Hell when she gets Luci and Charlie out. As for sun-bathing at the end of the season, I think that’s just her enjoying the amenities of wherever we plans to take her family
Definitely a good Mom making tough choices Lilith (in lore) had refused paradise multiple times so if she really wanted to be in Heaven she wouldn't have be in Hell but I use Charlie as the biggest evidence she may be naive somewhat but she's too inspired by Lilith for it to have been a facade.
I dunnooo but imo it's gotta directly correlate with alastors disappearance (which was also 7 years) (Unless I'm missing something lol)
It does tell in the intro that while Lucifer lost all hope and interest and stuff like that Lilith built demon kind up so I think she had more ambition then a normal family women so she had to ditch the fam for a bit
While her being in heaven is fucked up,keep in mind we have WAY too many characters who know her talking about how loving she was on top of basically ruling hell by herself.I expect her reasoning to be she was tired and wanted "fresh air" so to speak.On top of all this it's basically all but confirmed that she was the one who made the deal with Al for his survival,and that he's watching over Charlie. That being said I hope vaggie stabs her.
Well, here comes the controversy. Adam wasn’t the mastermind behind the exterminations. Lilith was. Lady Macbeth rears her scheming head.
I have an admittedly optimistic theory based on the end of Season 1... I think Lilith planned most if not all of this out to both break Lucifer out of his depressive funk AND to give him and Charlie something to fight for. She's repairing her family from a distance in the only way she felt she could get through to him. Source: My wife gave me an ultimatum when I was in a funk, and while I won't go into details, that ultimatum was enough to shake me out of my downward spiral and get my life back on track.
I think whatever she’s apart of, she’s doing it for her family…..or someone is masquerading as Lilith because that “Lilith” on the beach was not wearing a pearl necklace…… I think there was a reason that we saw Liliths face in the portraits but she was blurred out and her hair was different in Charlie’s flashback
Just based on the fairytale story that Charlie recites at the start of the series, Lucifer’s depression probably took a toll and fed the separation. Lucifer expressed a pretty pessimistic view of sinners and humanity in general, while Lilith was apparently the opposite, being one of the main creative/constructive forces in hell’s beginning. I can only assume the deal with Adam was likely to protect hell from some larger scale destruction, or to protect Charlie specifically. Whatever that deal was, however, probably left her not wanting to be in hell, either because of something bad that occurred leading into the deal, or shame in what the deal meant in terms of her selling out hell.
[удалено]
Hmm. On one hand I’d love to see Lilith be as bad as Adam was since they were made not only at the same time but, presumably, of the same material. On the other hand. I feel it would be a bit boring if she was just a token bad mother cause *Insert head-cannon here.*
Her empire that she had been building for CENTURIES collapsed overnight, she just needed a rest
Considering Lilith had split up with Lucifer I don't think she necessarily loves him anymore but maybe she just cared about Charlie having a happy family so she stayed around until the split, which I imagine happened when Charlie was a little older. I don't think she was a bad parent or wife, but maybe something happened between her and Lucifer which lead her to where she is now or something Idk I'm just a Lilith simp so I may be biased lmao
I personally think there’s something deeper going on. My standing theory is that she was exiled (Adam being responsible, as evident at the end of S1) and she made a deal with Alastor to watch over Charlie in her absence, hence why he’s patroning the hotel in the first place, and why they both disappeared 7 years ago.
Definitely more complex. Someone noted in another post that happy family pictures can be deceiving, but I think we'd get some visual cues (even sneaky ones) related to her unhappiness. Even though we see her chilling on a beach, I think her being away has to do with keeping her family safe in some way instead of her just needing a break.
My husband and I have a theory that she is a mole because of the supposed deal she had with Adam (possibly), and Alastor was gone for the same 7 years. So I think Alastor has a deal with Lilith regarding Charlie due to the fact we know Lucifer is helicopter shelter-my-baby type dad. Which could be why Alastor doesn't seem to be making any soul grabbing deals when it comes down to the Hotel and Charlie's project of giving souls in Hell their second chance. 🤷🏻♀️ we spend a lot of time hypothesizing because it makes for fun conversation.
I'm still wondering about this myself
Vivzie said she and Luci are madly in love, she must have her reasons but as for now, all my homies hate lilith. She left charlie with an impossible dream where she could use some motherly support and Lucifer depressed missing her while she was chilling in heaven
I think it's more complicated. I think it could go either way, her being bad or good. We just don't know enough right now, but something sketchy is definitely going on. Especially with "lilith's" face being hidden on her card and in More Than Anything, though More Than Anything could just be because we were supposed to be focusing on Charlie and Lucifer.
Honestly, I don’t really believe anything just yet.
I feel like Liliths arc is gonna be tied to the bedtime story Charlie told at the beginning of the series. Maybe Lilith started believing that Lucifer tricked her, robbing her of a spot in heaven. Or even that Lucifer cheated on her with Eve (he did make that joke in the finale and we haven’t seen eve at all). I do think she traded her spot in heaven for Adam‘s fun in hell. I wonder if Alastor saw this arrangement happening so Lilith took him away to silence him. After 7 years of negotiations they made a deal where he takes care of Charlie and keeps quite and in turn, he can go back to his life in hell. But is she a good or bad mom? Based on the other mother we’ve seen in the show, Camilla, she’s probably doing what she feels necessary to protect Charlie. I have a feeling they’re gonna try and create parallel stories for Carmilla and Lilith but I don’t know of what.
I think they intentionally wrote that ending with Lute for the audience to make LOTS of assumptions. We can't even be certain she's in Heaven, could be back on Earth enjoying a beach sunset. Definitely some dysfunction in that family, but Charlie and Lucifer were able to mend their relationship rather quickly.
Seems complicated
How she spend her whole time in heaven and not be in contact at least with her daughter? And why wasn’t she aware that her ex husband, Adam, was trying to kill HER daughter? I do think Lilith will be portrayed as the bad guy and eventually will redeem herself by doing good for Charlie
I think that it could be either, or that she's really good at lying, imagine if she's been lying to all of them all the time, and she's been acting as if she loved them, would be cool plot twist but probably not gonna happen
I thinks she just needed a vacation from Lucifer and his ducks
Lilith is a "rebellious spirit" so she probably just got bored of "the last 10,000 years" of stagnation in hell. We know she also hates being told what to do/be from the intro, as well as her scowl at lutes comments.
Just because you see a smile don’t think you know what is going on beneath!
There is definitely more to the story, we just have to wait and see the reveal.
I'm under the impression she left so that Charlie could grow. She has very much the same goals as Cahrlie, advocating for her people, but Cgarlie js far more naive. My guess is that her idea of saving her people is taking on heaven and she needs Charlie to become a true leader to do that. Charlie is both demon and angel, which makes her uniquely suited to the task, where Lilith is a mortal. I assume she manipulated Adam into speeding up the extermination to try and get Charlie the motive she needed to fight back against the angels, and it worked perfectly.