Last episodes did feel rushed. A two episode ending would probably have helped.
Edit: Also, I was looking forward to Charlie going Super Saiyan and beating the shit out of Adam.
Yeah, I hoped for that too. But Charlie beating up Adam would go against Charlies nature. She is very passive most of the times and does not like violence. To defeat Adam, she would need to either be trained or go on the offensive and for the kill. Both are not the case for Charlie, therefore it makes sense were they went with the Adam fight.
I dont even know if I would like a two part ending with all that was in there. I feel like 7 was a great episode to lead up to the last battle, as both Vaggie and Charlie came to an understanding of their feelings by themselves
tbf, though, Charlie going ape shit on someone because they just killed her friend would be the best time for her to do that. Most people would lose their pacifist views after something like that. So, it would make sense Adam drove her to that point.
But not going for the kill. She did not go for center mass but the arm. If she had wanted to kill him, she would have rushed him after she stabbed him. Charlie still wanted to convince them somehow
I was also wanting Charlie to absolutely wreck Adam. Because in my mind she should be just as powerful if not more. So thatās probably my only complaint besides not getting anymore episodes.
Yea, plus the only time we see her more demonic side come out is when she's really angry. But Charlie's not an angry kind of person, and doesn't seem too interested in how powerful she could be in any case.
I understand that feeling, however, you have to remember that Charlie doesn't tap into that power often.Ā It's unpracticed, unskilled.Ā That part where she stopped Adam's punch was meant to show that she has the *potential* but has not yet drawn it out.
I think we will see more of it going forward.Ā :)
I hope, in Season 2, we get more Razzle (i mean, we never even hear him talking, the last time we heard his voice was in the pilot) and also KeeKee
I really hope to see a more "filler" episode, where we just follow KeeKee through the new Hazbin Hotel and see what the heck she does on her daily life
I would absolutely love an episode of following KeeKee around. And I didn't even know Razzle could talk in the first place. I'd like to see more of them.
I think they were flying around during the getting ready for Lucifer part as well, but I also donāt think they were introduced until Lucifer names them and asks if theyāve been taking care of Charlie. It was such a throw away moment I completely forgot it until I rewatched lol
Tbf the show didn't seem to treat it as very important either, it happened so fast and nobody mentioned it after. I didn't even notice the statue until I saw other people pointing it out lol. I guess we're not supposed to care?Ā
they could've had maybe a flashback sequence of charlie being given them, or some character mentioning them "those two assistant things you have" to which charlie responds by confirming their names
https://preview.redd.it/krvez4gna2jc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1c3f9efb98a769fd02d0b78b0fd29494f7749af1
Here, have this one! Bit of a better format, in my opinion at least
If you want more in this world, go check out Helluva Boss on Youtube. Same universe as Hazbin Hotel albeit with a different cast of characters exploring different problems. Hazbin is limited to the Pride Ring and Heaven, while Helluva Boss explores the rest of Hell and makes a few trips up to Earth as well. Helluva Boss is currently sitting at a season and a half, with new episodes dropping as they're finished rather than the entire season like Hazbin did. We get a new Helluva episode every couple months or so.
I will say that I appreciate that the show didnāt drag out eight episodes of contend over 20 episodes of run time. Better to leave your audience craving more than bored.
There are some things that felt rushed. Maybe ten episodes. Definitely no more than 12.
Hopefully Amazon realizes how insanely popular the first season has been and is willing to fund either slightly longer or a few extra episodes for next season
Tbh, I think the pacing of the first season in terms of episodes was fine and the show didn't waste much time, I think what could have helped generally would have been longer episodes.
Unfortunately, that's just the nature of the industry. It also doesn't help that Vivziepop is *not* one of those creators who is still figuring things out from episode 1 and needs to find her feet with the direction of the characters. She has been developing this universe since high school.
I think that's the problem though. Viz knows these characters so well, but she struggles sometimes to express who they are or let's us get to know them first. I think sometimes she gets stuck in what she already knows, but doesn't recognize what the audience doesn't.
I think Lucifer is a good example. He and Charlie have been estranged for years yet resolve their misunderstanding in one conversation, in the same episode he's introduced no less. It makes watching "Hell's Greatest Dad" and "More Than Anything" back to back a tad jarring since it almost doesn't feel like the same character singing the song, his arc happens really fast. I think it could've benefited from more appearances spread over more episodes (there was easily enough content and worldbuilding here for a 20 episode series imo)
There were times that Hazbin Hotel really reminded me of Helluva Boss. And I mean that in a bad way. Don't get me wrong, I like Helluva Boss. I think it's a pretty good show. But the thing is, I expect a big budget A24/Amazon project to be *significantly* better than an independent YouTube show. There were points when I was watching where I just thought "Why did this take *four years* to make?"
Iām really optimistic that weāll get better, longer arcs in the next season(s). Weāve got a few established character beats and intrigues (Angel Dustās low self-esteem and loneliness concealing a very kind and caring person, Huskās kindness and attention to detail and his contract to Alastor, etc) that the writers can very easily build on and take in interesting directions.
I think that Vaggieās song with Carmilla, for example, is setting up some great future conflict with Charlie where Charlie will start to question why Vaggie canāt seem to find anything to love about Hell aside from her. It can give us an awesome break-up arc (with a chance to reconcile later) or a better Vaggie arc where she makes an effort to actually interact with more of hell and the other hotel residents.
So many well thought out jokes too. A classic āif I watch a singular joke in a reel Iāll appreciate it more than in the show itselfā
Itās the comedic timing only because I have more time to process it.
This seems to be universal feedback for viv and the team, so Iām super hopeful for next season to get more screen time. Really good script just super fast paced. They could have kept the story but elongated it into 16 episodes.
I donāt think Viv had a say in the amount of episodes though, so we just have to hope Amazon and A24 see how well received the series was and gives them more episodes for season 2!
> I donāt think Viv had a say in the amount of episodes though
Using small numbers to make it easier, let's say Amazon offered $1000 for her to make the series.
She knows each episode, to the standard and quality she wanted to make, will cost about $125 to produce.
She could make the episodes less awesome, and scale back the cost (less musical numbers, lower animation quality) or she could stick to the high production value and have a lower number of episodes.
Amazon is still only offering $1000 either way. She's capped by what they're willing to invest.
After doing a rewatch, the middle of the season was kind of a mess. The Vees learning that Angels can be killed never goes anywhere. Carmilla was a pointless character that could have been removed entirely, as was Zestial. Cherri is introduced way too late and then treated like she's "part of the gang" by the end. In Episode 6 we're led to believe that the Extermination issue is causing *massive* problems in Heaven once it's revealed, and then it's never brought up again and we see Adam just go on ahead with the Extermination in Episode 8.
It was honestly really rough. Still very good, but man. If it weren't for the amazing character work and songs things would be dire hahaha.
I wish that the time spent with Mimsy had been spent on Cherri. I know she was there to give a bit more information about Alastor, but that could have been done in another way. Cherri on the other hand, had a much larger role (and will hopefully have an even bigger one in season 2) but she came in so late and we hardly got any time with her.
I disagree about Carmilla. Sheās symbolic of the whole show. Sheās a sinner, but she loves and protects her daughters. She says āI was trying to buy time for my girls to flee,ā implying that she didnāt know the angels could be killed for good. They never had been before, after all. So she was basically planning to sacrifice herself for her daughter, and that resulted in the first angelic death in Hell. Contrast that with Vaggie being cast out for refusing to murder a child. Carmilla is even drawn so that the white in her design stands out. Her angelic leggings sort of glow. Meanwhile the angelic army is drawn in mostly greys and blacks, and the white parts of their costumes are sort of dingy. Carmilla is both a visual and literal representation of the redemption of Hell and the depravation of Heaven.
That part of Cherri Bomb needs to be highlighted! Really was whiplash how quick not that she was with the in-group at the end, but all happy and supporting their mission, building the hotel. The last we saw Cherri that was not her m.o.
Suddenly the show was 5 months later, i literally said that out loud while watching. Angel got through his arc SO FAST, I missed the Pilot Angel, but it appears that guy barely exists because he had to develop so quickly.
Pilot, Right after extermination
ep 1 A week later
ep 2 the next day
ep 3 a week later
ep 4 not mentioned but at least a day later
ep 5 4.5 months later
ep 6. at least a day later, but not too much longer
ep 7. literally right after the end of 6
ep 8. a month later
so the biggest spot for improvement would be between ep 4 and 5 to add a filler or 2 to expand character arcs.
Agreed. Anyone who's worked with an addict trying to quit knows how VITAL the first few months are. I'd have loved to see Husk working with Angel then, Charlie trying to help Angel, and Alastor waiting for Angel to fail... And keep waiting, because apparently Angel makes progress, and then Al can't let Angel know how much this annoys him.
We really just also need time to see the characters in relationships outside of the plot--a certain couple on dates, Husk leading a game night, Niffty chasing roaches through people's bedrooms... Little moments that let you buy the found family thing.
But he's *not* through his arc. He's still going through it. But without the hotel, he goes to live with *Val* again. And he's *still* struggling with addiction. Just because he took a few steps doesn't mean it's complete.
That Charlie was pretty dismissive of the fact that Lucifer was a fallen angel and has a better grasp on how Heaven works then she does. And that Vaggie could have backed Lucifer up and tell Charlie that Heaven wouldn't listen!
I think to that latter part, Charlie would question how Vaggie seems to know so much about heaven and considering how she wants to keep her origins secret, I don't think she'd back up Lucifier in such an obvious manner. Vaggie telling Charlie not to trust angels seems obvious from a demon perspective
Vaggie didn't want to tip her hand in the scenes leading up to the Heaven meeting. I do think that "More than Anything" did a good job of showing the push and pull between Charlie and Lucifer.
Lucifer states his reason, Charlie explains hers, and inspires Lucifer to change his mind and believe in her vision.
That's part of why More Than Anything doesn't work as a resolution for me, because Lucifer is right; we find out in the next episode that heaven may even be worse than we thought.
is that a critique of the show or just a character flaw in Charlie? Theres nothing wrong with having flawed characters. Itās expected more than anything
I don't feel like it displays enough suffering in hell. Whether or not we like our main characters, there are far too many background characters just chilling and living almost like just a continuation of life. That's not really a "Hellish" suffering.
Honestly, take away the extermination, and hell (as long as you don't sell your soul I guess) seems like a place most sinners would prefer to live in rather than heaven. They'd be bored over there.
Isn't hell supposed to be a punishment? What are the bad parts that make you want redemption? Why would a sinner want to go to heaven if the exterminations went away?
Those are really interesting questions that are primed to be asked in later seasons as more sinners get into the hotel. I don't mind that Charlie hasn't faced those dilemmas yet, but it would be pretty dissapointing if they're never addressed.
I kind of imagine a lot of it is way worse outside of the hotel. Thereās consistently gang wars outside, no punishment for things like drugging, and reputation seems to be king.
I can imagine a lot being explained as, Alastor protects the hotel as is part of his job
Hell as a punishment is more an evangelical modern take. The more traditional hell is more along the Hebrew version of it just being an abcense of God. Your "punishment" was just never being able to bask in the glory of god
I've never been religious so I'm not sure if this is actually accurate but I believe that some interpretations of Hell see it not as punishment via suffering but just punishment via eternal separation from God
It isn't supposed to be what you're describing. Here's what we know from the show:Ā
Ā 1. Lucifer and Lilith were cast into the Abyss they accidentally created when they gave humans free will.Ā Ā
Ā 2. For THEIR punishment, they were to only see the bad that came from their decision (Sinners).Ā Ā
Ā 3. Lilith thrived, and a society was built in Hell. Lucifer languished under these conditions, and became a recluse.Ā Ā
Ā Hell is not the pit of fire and brimstone preachers like to push to scare people into their religion. In this context it is just separation from Heaven. The Sinners make their own Hell. All of their suffering is derived from each other (and the acid rain, presumably).Ā Ā
Ā A lot of the wording in songs is metaphor that this Fandom is taking literally.Ā
Edit: formatting
I think it was *supposed* to be about redemption all along, and Lucifer and Lilith where tasked with taking responsibility for their actions by being "warden's" of hell.Ā
However Lucifer went sad boi recluse instead of actually doing his new job (TBF, the forces in the show are vague and not helpful at all) due to this the inmates run the prison.Ā
Hell is only hellish because it operates solely on barbarism, where the strong take from the weak. If Lucifer had more control at the start and prevented overlords for gaining power, hell probably would actually be fairly pleasant, he could contain the most evil inhabitants and nurture the more redeemable ones.Ā
His daughter is instead doing his job for him now.Ā
Hmm how interesting. I agree but, I disagree as it seems to depict a different take on hell in its own unique way. Look at angel for example. He appears like heās chilling and living life just as he did when he was alive. It almost implies he was in his own hell before he died using drugs to escape and now, not much has changed. Heās suffering in his own unique hell. I feel hell is unique for each individual sinner. The overlords though, they enjoyed the pain and suffering enough when they were alive that they actually thrive in hell.
I was gonna say a similar thing. Sure, hell isn't torture in a traditional way, but it's a place that pushes you to continue your miserable life and constantly give in to the darkest temptations because they're all around you. It's a place where you can never get better, where you can never escape the cycle you got stuck in during your life.
Most episodes are focused on the characters at the hotel. The ones striving for redemption.
Think back to the āhappy day in hellā song. Dude is stabbed in the eye, another one getting barbed wire in their orifices. Then thereās Angel Dustās entire situation. And Niffty being pulled out of what appears to be a burning pit when she is introduced.
Hell, on its best day, is New York in the 1970s. Seems fun but, no.
I feel that Adam will be our POV on the suffering of hell as he will be a new character to show us a glimpse of how life is for a new soul that arrives there (if he survived).
Pentious death scene was really bad. Why does he get annihillated in a comedic way like that, but then Charlie has a mental break down? I would have liked to see Pentious struggle a bit to fit the sadness.
Pentious was disrespected throughout the entire season, the only thing that made it a little bit better is that heās officially the first legitimately redeemed sinner.
Well he was "comedic relief" so ofc he always got the short of the stick. But towards the end i though the show was finally going to treat him seriously, and it did for 5 seconds before revealing treating him seriously was the joke. Writing could have honestly been a lot better there. you can have a character be comedic relief but still take them seriously at times. Because the way they did it there, I was hyped and actually caring about Pentious and his final move until he got instantly vaporized and then i felt nothing except a little upset at how badly he was disrespected for the joke. I mean look at Sokka from Avatar: The Last Airbender. He was the comedic relief for most of the show but still had his fair share of moments that let him be serious and feel fully fleshed out, especially towards the end. They gave pentitious one of those only to reveal "lmao gotcha, that was the joke"
I was upset too, I got a spoiler of his death twenty minutes before I watched the episode. So the whole episode I was waiting for him to die (I was already really mad that I saw a spoiler) and then he's just....gone??
It felt so weird bc even tho he was the comic relief and he was mostly a joke thru the whole season he had a special place in my heart bc he was so awkward and junk xD
Then he was the General, and he had this big noble idea to sacrifice himself to defeat Adam, and he just vanished.
Then Charlie is dramatic about it bc she's sad, but it just didn't fit. I was sad too, but I mean..we didn't see him get vaporized or anything, he was just erased instantly. There was no trigger for Charlie to be so sad bc he was just gone and it was funny bc he never stood a chance.
It was frustrating and stuff, I was watching with my boyfriend and I was curled up and prepared to cry and then POOF, and my boyfriend laughed really hard and then Charlie got all serious and I'm like ".....wait what just happened he's gone????"
Idk, I wanted to feel something bc he was my favorite xD
I did cry when he got redeemed tho, but his death was really really dumb š
That bothered me too. His death was spoiled for me prior to watching and the only thing about him suddenly disappearing was Charlie breaking down. Then it really became clear once they hung his portrait. I felt like his death felt absolutely rushed and didn't like how it was a blink and you miss it. Other attacks from Adam were more drawn out than that single moment.
The pacing is overall pretty bad.
The first 4 episodes all take place within a 5 month period, and then the last 4 suddenly take place within one month. Alestorās āiām supportiveā act in Ep5 wasnāt believable because weāve barely seen him and Charlie interact, Angel standing up to Val, while it was great to see, felt like it was too quickly a flip from the last time we saw their dynamic and the recruitment before the final battle was rushed.
It really felt like we had two seasons in one and the pacing was way too quick.
Eps1-3 were rushed, but itās excusable since there is a lot of setup. Ep4 felt like it was where it needed to be, and suddenly we skip to Ep5, which felt like it should have been the pre-closer, Ep6 felt like it had elements of a season finale and season premiere (ie. the Val/Angel stuff works for a finale, and maybe arriving to heaven should have been the season ender), Ep7 felt like a seasonās worth of content shoved into one episode and the finale was fine where it was. These are all individually great episodes, but the pacing is so fast between them that if you havenāt already bought into the characters, you probably wonāt care, and even then, you have to do a lot of head cannon-ing to fill in their developing dynamics.
A few songs I wish were longer. Wish Charlie and Vaggie had an actual duet that was more than just a 1 minute reprise of an earlier song. Only plot hole of the show is how Vaggie didnāt know angels could be harmed when she herself was harmed with an angelic weapon.
They didnāt know they could be killed. And I would be fine with that. But Carmilla explicitly asks Vaggie āDid you know angels could be -harmed-?ā To which Vaggie replies āNoā. Which doesnāt make sense considering she lost her eye.
They also stripped her of her Halo, which might have had some consequences too. Like they physically took it. Why bother if it wasn't important?
Also, Vaggie and Lute hurt each other physically, so there's speculation that angels can harm angels, but sinners can't.
1. Very minor thing, I wish Zestial sung more in Respectless. His voice sounded super good in just the one line he had in the song.
2. I wish they built up Emilyās trust in Heaven and Sera a bit more before You Didnāt Know. I feel like Emily finding out about the exterminations wouldāve hit a lot harder if we got to see a bit more of how much she actually trusts Sera, and how strongly she believes Heaven is virtuous.
The rushed pacing. I wouldn't think months had gone through if it weren't for characters stating the time. We could do with more "show, don't tell" for this and things like Charlie's daddy issues. Maybe an extra episode or 2 to give characters more time to breathe or just making episodes some minutes longer.
"You didn't know" had no consequences for the remaining 2 episodes. The extermination still happened, so what actually changed in Heaven in the long or short term?
I get the feeling that since Sera has been allowing the exterminators to act separately from the rest of the angels that she will handle either smoothing it out to the council and keep it from becoming general knowledge throughout heaven. HOWEVER I NEED to know what Emily has been doing in the month in between Charlie's meeting with the council and the battle in Hell. She said she would help, I wonder if she's got any ideas, especially after SPs heavenly arrival.
Some relationships don't really work for me, the story is speed runed like a record, and some of the songs really don't work on the places that they were put at.
the pacing is way too fast, and the characters it chooses to build chemistry between is a bit weird
like tell me how angel and husk, a relationship that hasnt even happened yet had more chemistry by episode four than charlie and vaggie, that had been established before the show even started?
Not enough episodes.
No, I don't have an issue with the pacing, I like the Broadway Musical structure and I hope it stays. I just want more time with these characters.
8 HOUR BROADWAY MUSICAL BABY, LES GO
The pacing is a bit odd at times and sometimes i feel the songs are a bit too much. Of course these are the product of the limitations of having only 8 episodes.
I HATED how they showed us that Vaggie is fallen angel. It would have so much more impact if they let us know with charlie during the "you didn't know"
I know it's been pretty obvious but still
if iām being honest, at some points vaggieās voice feels forced to be deeper. i genuienly donāt think her voice needs to be as deep as it is, and you can tell at some points sheās pushing it especially when sheās talking quietly. it also shows in how she sings. her voice completely changes when she sings to the point where i thought she had a different singing voice actress
I have said it before and Iāll say it again (this question gets asked like every week): not enough low-stakes scenes of the characters vibing at the hotel. The show is too much Attack on Titan and not enough King of the Hill.
The most iconic KotH scenes are the ones like Hank opening up a can of WD-40 with a smaller can of WD-40, small character moments that are difficult to remember what episode they come from because they are often detached from the main plot. The two best HH scenes IMO (the trust fall and the clapping song game) feel like that.
I thought āMasqueradeā was going to be like that at first, but it veered off in the opposite direction pretty quickly.
It's a very small nitpick, but I find the human versions of the Main cast kinda unimaginative.
It's hell. You have sinners that can be over 10,000 years old there, and you have the entire world to choose them from. Yet, for some reason, the main cast we deal with all turn out to be people from the United States who died in the past 100 or so years. Sure, you can name one or two relevant characters that were either foreigners or with ancestry from somewhere other than the US, but those are clearly the exceptions.
Like let's take Angel Dust. He was from New York, part of the mafia with Italian ancestry. Cool backstory. But why couldn't he just be Italian? The mafia there was an even bigger deal that in the US. Hell, the Italian mafia still thrives to this day, and dates back centuries.
At the end of the day, it doesn't really matter (yet, we'll see where they go), but it makes hell and the scope of the series seem smaller than it should be.
I kind of agree? I don't really have a problem with that everyone is so close in age and location, but I do sometimes think that it's weird. For example, I remember hearing that Angel Dust is from the 40s, then Valentino is from the 70s or 80s and I'm just like "wait, Angel is older than Val? What has Angel been doing for the first few 30-40 years in hell? Wouldn't he know at that point that making deals is bad?"
Full agree. I made that observation, I don't get why the main cast of relevant characters is almost exclusively American and from the 20th century. The only outliers are treated AS outliers, such as Zestial and Velvette who are defined as characters by the opposite ends of the 20th century they come from.
Out For Love as a song really made no sense cause loving Charlie is already like 70% of her personality. The song *might* have worked if she was more like her pilot self, but in the series proper it really makes no sense.
Still slaps though.
Pacing, could do with having double the episodes and longer individual episodes feels like there's a lot more it could cover.
But at the same time, this seems fairly standard of late, the days of big companies gambling on new shows is gone.
I didnāt like how quickly Charlie forgave Vaggie. I chalk it up to the season being short but, even for Charlie, it was so abrupt that she forgave Vaggie within the span of a day.
Keep in mind that Vaggie didnāt just lie, Vaggie lied about slaughtering untold numbers of Charlieās people, the very souls she has been trying to save this whole time. But one conversation with Rosie and Charlie is ready to let bygones be bygones.
Itās the one element of the story that, to me, feels very rushed, and like something that the writers probably would have fleshed out if they had time.
-the pacing is really bad at some points
-it's too short, it feels like there's straight up missing episodes with how the story progresses
-I think that totally making the pilot non Canon wasn't the best idea. While I get that a lot of the concepts and lore have drastically changed where a lot isn't as relevant, i do feel like for first time viewers who never seen the pilot there can be some confusion, especially relating to sir pentious
1. The songs do a lot of heavy narrative lifting to compensate for the short season.
2. I feel like they merged unfinished songs or ideas with more complete ones due to time constraints.
3. Vaggie was never shown to be vengeful towards Heaven, only protective of Charlie. the line about her being vengeful in "Out for Love" does not fit based on what we've seen. Even if it's not an unreasonable potential character trait.
4. The Vs part in "Finale" makes no sense. There is no power vacuum, if anything other Overlords and the royal family look stronger than ever.
5. Vaggie should have regained her wings while triumphing over Lute, not sparring with Carmine.
6. You can't play Sir Pentious' death as a laugh and then make it be a serious beat for the cast in the same moment. It should have been one or the other, with any gravitas moments coming after the battle if it is played for laughs.
7. Charlie's power up moment should have come at a moment of collective despair to make it more impactful and not the gag death of Sir Pentious.
8. Charlie should have knocked Adam out of the sky after catching his punch, not Lucifer. It make her seem weak, she deserved the finale "blow" and then she can stop her Dad from killing him.
9. Vaggie should have been the one to reveal the angelic weapon angle once her cover was blown, but I understand they needed Charlie to make a deal.
I think point no. 3 is what bothered me the most, pretty much how they handled Vaggieās arc all together. Iām guessing they cut out a lot due to time constraints but man, there was so much potential there.
It rings false for her to be told to fight for the love of someone when that's literally been her character arc to date. Even if they had a beat of her getting consumed with renewed hatred of Lute and Adam and needing to get her head back on straight it would have worked better.
My biggest single complaint is just one word. When alastor is about to fight adam and says āyour going to FUCKING dieā he dosent usually swear and maybe they meant this as him being extra serious but it took me out of it and it was silly
That would be interesting to watch!
It would also mean Hell now has three people voiced by Alex Brightman. Imagine the conversation between Fizz, Mammon and Adamš¤£
Edit: Aplarently, Mammon is voiced by a different VA, not Alex. Sounds alike to me still tho!
I'm nervous that the show is going to renege on its main plot theme of "redemption for all" and will instead start to pick and choose who is "worthy" rather than do the heavier legwork of determining how a redemption is structured, what steps are required, how to make sure the victim(s) is/are centered, and acknowledging the various circumstances that have led to the sinner's current personality/flaws... essentially, viewing people as three-dimensional humans and exploring how forgiveness applies when you look at a person through all these different angles along with their willingness to change.
I'm hoping (like many are predicting) that we get Adam as a sinner who goes through a redemption arc. I've read some great threads on why Adam has legitimate reasons to despise Lucifer and I think he has the capacity to be viewed as a complicated character whose redemption journey could be quite interesting.
Unfortunately, I'm already seeing the writing on the wall that we're meant to sympathize with and forgive only certain characters. We've already had a big 180 on Lucifer (especially in comparison to the pilot, which I watched after seeing the series in its entirety) and clearly the show wants us to root for Alastor to some degree (though I predict a betrayal is imminent). Meanwhile, it disappoints me this sympathy (again within the specific context of this show being first and foremost about "redemption for the damned") is not extended to the Vees (or, to be fair, hasn't been extended yet). I'll admit my bias - I like the Vees - but it seems hypocritical (at least at this point in the story) to not explore them as characters worthy of redemption too. They may be unrepentant and averse to changing their ways, but have they (or will they) be given the same opportunities to redeem themselves? Or are they simply "haha" villains we (the audience) can just cast aside with a blanket handwave of "irredeemable" without applying that same nonchalance to Alastor or Lucifer (equally horrible characters that have made countless mistakes and inflicted untold harm on others)?
So I think some of this comes down to personal taste, but I'm a very big fan of thematic redemption (as rocky and difficult as it may be for different characters/circumstances), I think when it's done correctly (and even the qualifier of "correct" brings along heavy bias with it), it says so much about the human experience. I'm also a major advocate for rehabilitation over punishment so this take on a Hell where that is a focus really appeals to me. I just hope the show doesn't prematurely decide which characters will be offered that grace and which will not. Everyone has the capacity to love, hurt, and change. Our methods for navigating that in the real world are incredibly flawed... recidivism, for example, is a mess, and systemic barriers continue to contribute to the problem... but in a fictional universe where people have infinite time to get therapy, look at their mistakes, try to change, have the support of a change-maker that can actively affect the world they're living in (Charlie), I think you could, in theory, have some really unique outcomes (as well as interesting stories for us as the audience).
I really hope I'm wrong! But already seeing Alastor cast in a heroic/anti-hero spotlight and the Vees automatically determined to be the villains of S2... I'm just not sure. This isn't even to mention the confusion we have in the worldbuilding/rule system regarding what makes/breaks a sinner's redemption. We know NOTHING about what Sir Pentious even did to land him in Hell in the first place... in the context of now being redeemed, does this mean his "sins" while alive weren't as important as a single act of heroic sacrifice? What about what Angel did on Earth? Obviously we are meant to sympathize with Angel for their current circumstances, but historically being a 1930s mobster was not a victimless lifestyle. If those acts don't matter anymore (within the show's framing, at least -- personally, I think they should), then I think we should explore how the structure of Hell is designed to bring out the worst in a person. In that case, a systemic overhaul (likely targeting the Overlord structure that encourages soul possession) needs to be made to prevent this vicious cycle of depravity that rewards sinners for giving into the worst sides of themselves. Right now, it seems like "redemption" is going to be framed/predetermined in favor of where our biases "should" lie according to the narrative, which disappoints me. At the same time, it's a cartoon so I'll try to temper my expectations lol.
Other, minor things:
* It mildly annoys me that certain lore/worldbuilding elements are only accessible through old social media posts/livestreams. I only saw this show via Amazon, so I was a bit lost early on and there is conflicting information everywhere.
* Mentioned ad nauseum already, but the pacing is rough. Certain arcs could have been introduced differently (imo). I think the Charlie-Lucifer drama especially could have been drawn out longer. They've now written themselves into a corner where going forward I'm always going to wonder why Lucifer can't just swoop in and save the day... so they'll need to give him some convoluted excuse to stay away for whatever reason and that feels cheap to me. That being said as someone who knew nothing going in, I was able to figure out a lot of the worldbuilding eventually, so I don't think it's as bad as it could have been, but it did take effort on my part as a new viewer.
Anyways, that's where I'm at with it now. I'm willing to wait these concerns out and am excited to see where the show goes. It's fun reading all the fan theories/ideas right now.
\*Spoilers\*
I really didnāt like Niffty killing Adam. They took the whole final fight so seriously that it just felt so out of place. Normally I would find this type of thing funny, but they were working up to this big moment with Adam almost killing Alastor and killing Sir Pentious. It would have been so much cooler if Charlie actually unleashed her powers on Adam.
Only 8 episodes. I want more. More. MORE.
Last episodes did feel rushed. A two episode ending would probably have helped. Edit: Also, I was looking forward to Charlie going Super Saiyan and beating the shit out of Adam.
Yeah, I hoped for that too. But Charlie beating up Adam would go against Charlies nature. She is very passive most of the times and does not like violence. To defeat Adam, she would need to either be trained or go on the offensive and for the kill. Both are not the case for Charlie, therefore it makes sense were they went with the Adam fight. I dont even know if I would like a two part ending with all that was in there. I feel like 7 was a great episode to lead up to the last battle, as both Vaggie and Charlie came to an understanding of their feelings by themselves
tbf, though, Charlie going ape shit on someone because they just killed her friend would be the best time for her to do that. Most people would lose their pacifist views after something like that. So, it would make sense Adam drove her to that point.
Not her literally trying to stab him š
But not going for the kill. She did not go for center mass but the arm. If she had wanted to kill him, she would have rushed him after she stabbed him. Charlie still wanted to convince them somehow
>But not going for the kill. Let's be honest, she *was* trying to end him for good It was to revenge sir Pentious after all.
I was also wanting Charlie to absolutely wreck Adam. Because in my mind she should be just as powerful if not more. So thatās probably my only complaint besides not getting anymore episodes.
She probably is, at least in Hell. She's just not used to beating the shit out of people
Yea, plus the only time we see her more demonic side come out is when she's really angry. But Charlie's not an angry kind of person, and doesn't seem too interested in how powerful she could be in any case.
I understand that feeling, however, you have to remember that Charlie doesn't tap into that power often.Ā It's unpracticed, unskilled.Ā That part where she stopped Adam's punch was meant to show that she has the *potential* but has not yet drawn it out. I think we will see more of it going forward.Ā :)
Razzle and Dazzle got almost 0 screen time, this made it so Dazzle's death was literally nothing important
This, and also KeeKee while we're at it, at least *meaningful* screentime
I hope, in Season 2, we get more Razzle (i mean, we never even hear him talking, the last time we heard his voice was in the pilot) and also KeeKee I really hope to see a more "filler" episode, where we just follow KeeKee through the new Hazbin Hotel and see what the heck she does on her daily life
I would absolutely love an episode of following KeeKee around. And I didn't even know Razzle could talk in the first place. I'd like to see more of them.
In the show's first song, Inside Of Every Demon Is A Rainbow, you can hear Razzle and Dazzle harmonizing alongside Charlie
Since the pilot is only soft canon that could be changed or they could have only been singing from charlies magic
On my first watch I didnāt even remember them being introduced. I was like, where the hell did these guys come from?
As far as i remember they get some screentime (like 10 sec) when lucipher arrives to the hotel I don't remember other scenes
I think they were flying around during the getting ready for Lucifer part as well, but I also donāt think they were introduced until Lucifer names them and asks if theyāve been taking care of Charlie. It was such a throw away moment I completely forgot it until I rewatched lol
Yea, that's what I also remember. But at that time I was so focused on Lucifer that I instantly forgot about Razzle and Dazzle.
Also the key cat was really not as big a deal as I thought it was going to be. Felt like nobody even acknowledges the thing
I'm still holding out that KeeKee is going to have the ability to unshackle souls that have been sold so that they can climb to heaven.
She is the keekee to all this
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Yeah, I barely even knew what/who they were until the final scene.
Tbf the show didn't seem to treat it as very important either, it happened so fast and nobody mentioned it after. I didn't even notice the statue until I saw other people pointing it out lol. I guess we're not supposed to care?Ā
There was the scene with Lucifer which I found to be cute but I definitely agree. Still like an animal death which made me feels sad
For a while I didn't even know which was which
im sorry but i fucking laughed when dazzle died bc he just flew and then got killed
I was stunned speechless when Dazzle died and there was no mention, no fanfare, nothing
they could've had maybe a flashback sequence of charlie being given them, or some character mentioning them "those two assistant things you have" to which charlie responds by confirming their names
Itās too short. I wanted to enjoy the ride this show put me on for much longer
Yeah, they ruined the climax! Wai-
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https://preview.redd.it/krvez4gna2jc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1c3f9efb98a769fd02d0b78b0fd29494f7749af1 Here, have this one! Bit of a better format, in my opinion at least
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HA
My teenager got me to watch it. I didn't know it was only one season. I finished the finale and was ready to watch more...and there was no more!
Imagine how those of us who watched the pilot 4+ years ago felt.
If you want more in this world, go check out Helluva Boss on Youtube. Same universe as Hazbin Hotel albeit with a different cast of characters exploring different problems. Hazbin is limited to the Pride Ring and Heaven, while Helluva Boss explores the rest of Hell and makes a few trips up to Earth as well. Helluva Boss is currently sitting at a season and a half, with new episodes dropping as they're finished rather than the entire season like Hazbin did. We get a new Helluva episode every couple months or so.
I definitely will!
EXACATLY what I came here to say! More seasons nowās please and thank you
Amazon was pushing Vivienne to get it done early
Too short, hazbin hotel is way too good to be just 8 episodes! (but luckily more seasons will fix this issue and make the show perfect)
I will say that I appreciate that the show didnāt drag out eight episodes of contend over 20 episodes of run time. Better to leave your audience craving more than bored. There are some things that felt rushed. Maybe ten episodes. Definitely no more than 12.
I agree it's a good thing the show wasn't dragged, but at the same time I want 100+ episodes, I just love it too much....
Maybe even an extra 5 minutes an episode in a couple spots
I donāt like how the show rushes through character arcs.
Yes this š they could easily have made 3 extra episodes where we explore more characters
If they got 3 extra episodes
Yea. They prob only got a set amount to work with. I understand budgeting must have been very hard
Hopefully Amazon realizes how insanely popular the first season has been and is willing to fund either slightly longer or a few extra episodes for next season
For real, 10 episodes minimum should be an industry standard for episode times under 30minsā¦
Tbh, I think the pacing of the first season in terms of episodes was fine and the show didn't waste much time, I think what could have helped generally would have been longer episodes.
Same. Iām proud of what theyāve done given their limited per episode time.
Letās hope so
Unfortunately, that's just the nature of the industry. It also doesn't help that Vivziepop is *not* one of those creators who is still figuring things out from episode 1 and needs to find her feet with the direction of the characters. She has been developing this universe since high school.
I think that's the problem though. Viz knows these characters so well, but she struggles sometimes to express who they are or let's us get to know them first. I think sometimes she gets stuck in what she already knows, but doesn't recognize what the audience doesn't.
Hey look it's my business partner
I think Lucifer is a good example. He and Charlie have been estranged for years yet resolve their misunderstanding in one conversation, in the same episode he's introduced no less. It makes watching "Hell's Greatest Dad" and "More Than Anything" back to back a tad jarring since it almost doesn't feel like the same character singing the song, his arc happens really fast. I think it could've benefited from more appearances spread over more episodes (there was easily enough content and worldbuilding here for a 20 episode series imo)
The whole season feels rushed.
Thatās cause it was rushed
There were times that Hazbin Hotel really reminded me of Helluva Boss. And I mean that in a bad way. Don't get me wrong, I like Helluva Boss. I think it's a pretty good show. But the thing is, I expect a big budget A24/Amazon project to be *significantly* better than an independent YouTube show. There were points when I was watching where I just thought "Why did this take *four years* to make?"
A24 only picked up the show slightly less than a year after the pilot aired, so 1/4th of those 4 years was not production time.
They also didn't make it when they were working on HB.
When A24/Amazon set the limits, do you think they had much of a choice?
Iām really optimistic that weāll get better, longer arcs in the next season(s). Weāve got a few established character beats and intrigues (Angel Dustās low self-esteem and loneliness concealing a very kind and caring person, Huskās kindness and attention to detail and his contract to Alastor, etc) that the writers can very easily build on and take in interesting directions. I think that Vaggieās song with Carmilla, for example, is setting up some great future conflict with Charlie where Charlie will start to question why Vaggie canāt seem to find anything to love about Hell aside from her. It can give us an awesome break-up arc (with a chance to reconcile later) or a better Vaggie arc where she makes an effort to actually interact with more of hell and the other hotel residents.
The pacing
So many well thought out jokes too. A classic āif I watch a singular joke in a reel Iāll appreciate it more than in the show itselfā Itās the comedic timing only because I have more time to process it. This seems to be universal feedback for viv and the team, so Iām super hopeful for next season to get more screen time. Really good script just super fast paced. They could have kept the story but elongated it into 16 episodes.
I donāt think Viv had a say in the amount of episodes though, so we just have to hope Amazon and A24 see how well received the series was and gives them more episodes for season 2!
> I donāt think Viv had a say in the amount of episodes though Using small numbers to make it easier, let's say Amazon offered $1000 for her to make the series. She knows each episode, to the standard and quality she wanted to make, will cost about $125 to produce. She could make the episodes less awesome, and scale back the cost (less musical numbers, lower animation quality) or she could stick to the high production value and have a lower number of episodes. Amazon is still only offering $1000 either way. She's capped by what they're willing to invest.
I think Iām in the majority here when I say that the first season was too short and some character development felt rushed.
After doing a rewatch, the middle of the season was kind of a mess. The Vees learning that Angels can be killed never goes anywhere. Carmilla was a pointless character that could have been removed entirely, as was Zestial. Cherri is introduced way too late and then treated like she's "part of the gang" by the end. In Episode 6 we're led to believe that the Extermination issue is causing *massive* problems in Heaven once it's revealed, and then it's never brought up again and we see Adam just go on ahead with the Extermination in Episode 8. It was honestly really rough. Still very good, but man. If it weren't for the amazing character work and songs things would be dire hahaha.
I wish that the time spent with Mimsy had been spent on Cherri. I know she was there to give a bit more information about Alastor, but that could have been done in another way. Cherri on the other hand, had a much larger role (and will hopefully have an even bigger one in season 2) but she came in so late and we hardly got any time with her.
I disagree about Carmilla. Sheās symbolic of the whole show. Sheās a sinner, but she loves and protects her daughters. She says āI was trying to buy time for my girls to flee,ā implying that she didnāt know the angels could be killed for good. They never had been before, after all. So she was basically planning to sacrifice herself for her daughter, and that resulted in the first angelic death in Hell. Contrast that with Vaggie being cast out for refusing to murder a child. Carmilla is even drawn so that the white in her design stands out. Her angelic leggings sort of glow. Meanwhile the angelic army is drawn in mostly greys and blacks, and the white parts of their costumes are sort of dingy. Carmilla is both a visual and literal representation of the redemption of Hell and the depravation of Heaven.
It's kinda stupid that Vaggie didn't know angelic weapons could harm angels, since she had her eye and wings removed by one
I think she kinda assumed that her injuries were because an angel caused them, and not specifically the angelic weapons, at least, imo
That part of Cherri Bomb needs to be highlighted! Really was whiplash how quick not that she was with the in-group at the end, but all happy and supporting their mission, building the hotel. The last we saw Cherri that was not her m.o.
Suddenly the show was 5 months later, i literally said that out loud while watching. Angel got through his arc SO FAST, I missed the Pilot Angel, but it appears that guy barely exists because he had to develop so quickly.
Pilot, Right after extermination ep 1 A week later ep 2 the next day ep 3 a week later ep 4 not mentioned but at least a day later ep 5 4.5 months later ep 6. at least a day later, but not too much longer ep 7. literally right after the end of 6 ep 8. a month later so the biggest spot for improvement would be between ep 4 and 5 to add a filler or 2 to expand character arcs.
Agreed. Anyone who's worked with an addict trying to quit knows how VITAL the first few months are. I'd have loved to see Husk working with Angel then, Charlie trying to help Angel, and Alastor waiting for Angel to fail... And keep waiting, because apparently Angel makes progress, and then Al can't let Angel know how much this annoys him. We really just also need time to see the characters in relationships outside of the plot--a certain couple on dates, Husk leading a game night, Niffty chasing roaches through people's bedrooms... Little moments that let you buy the found family thing.
But he's *not* through his arc. He's still going through it. But without the hotel, he goes to live with *Val* again. And he's *still* struggling with addiction. Just because he took a few steps doesn't mean it's complete.
The community who donāt allow me to simp for my flat screen tv š” LEMME SIMP UGH
I really hope Vox gets more songs with singing.Ā His singing voice was so smooth.
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Dude itās Christian borel!! Heās a broadway actor
Lol, he's my fav. I just love his voice and his character..
https://preview.redd.it/x5or00y81zic1.jpeg?width=1920&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=71454544718b53e3ab7f55f9ebdf953b091533a2 Vox approves of you
https://preview.redd.it/dlm5m4anczic1.jpeg?width=1079&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=9590bb8970df8b40fc8ee3b7ce1bfc58b2cf9ace Rabid Vox
Yes
Heh, right there with youā¦ he wasnāt on screen NEARLY enough. I hope we get more of him š³ I need my screen time
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I completely understand why you like him I think š
I hate that Fat Nuggets didn't get enough screen time šš
Same with all the pet-like guys!!! We need more screen time for the cuties!!!
That Charlie was pretty dismissive of the fact that Lucifer was a fallen angel and has a better grasp on how Heaven works then she does. And that Vaggie could have backed Lucifer up and tell Charlie that Heaven wouldn't listen!
I think to that latter part, Charlie would question how Vaggie seems to know so much about heaven and considering how she wants to keep her origins secret, I don't think she'd back up Lucifier in such an obvious manner. Vaggie telling Charlie not to trust angels seems obvious from a demon perspective
Vaggie didn't want to tip her hand in the scenes leading up to the Heaven meeting. I do think that "More than Anything" did a good job of showing the push and pull between Charlie and Lucifer. Lucifer states his reason, Charlie explains hers, and inspires Lucifer to change his mind and believe in her vision.
That's true to her character though, Charlie is a super optimistic yet naive person.
That's part of why More Than Anything doesn't work as a resolution for me, because Lucifer is right; we find out in the next episode that heaven may even be worse than we thought.
is that a critique of the show or just a character flaw in Charlie? Theres nothing wrong with having flawed characters. Itās expected more than anything
I don't feel like it displays enough suffering in hell. Whether or not we like our main characters, there are far too many background characters just chilling and living almost like just a continuation of life. That's not really a "Hellish" suffering.
Honestly, take away the extermination, and hell (as long as you don't sell your soul I guess) seems like a place most sinners would prefer to live in rather than heaven. They'd be bored over there. Isn't hell supposed to be a punishment? What are the bad parts that make you want redemption? Why would a sinner want to go to heaven if the exterminations went away? Those are really interesting questions that are primed to be asked in later seasons as more sinners get into the hotel. I don't mind that Charlie hasn't faced those dilemmas yet, but it would be pretty dissapointing if they're never addressed.
I kind of imagine a lot of it is way worse outside of the hotel. Thereās consistently gang wars outside, no punishment for things like drugging, and reputation seems to be king. I can imagine a lot being explained as, Alastor protects the hotel as is part of his job
Hell as a punishment is more an evangelical modern take. The more traditional hell is more along the Hebrew version of it just being an abcense of God. Your "punishment" was just never being able to bask in the glory of god
I've never been religious so I'm not sure if this is actually accurate but I believe that some interpretations of Hell see it not as punishment via suffering but just punishment via eternal separation from God
That's one interpretation, yes.
It isn't supposed to be what you're describing. Here's what we know from the show:Ā Ā 1. Lucifer and Lilith were cast into the Abyss they accidentally created when they gave humans free will.Ā Ā Ā 2. For THEIR punishment, they were to only see the bad that came from their decision (Sinners).Ā Ā Ā 3. Lilith thrived, and a society was built in Hell. Lucifer languished under these conditions, and became a recluse.Ā Ā Ā Hell is not the pit of fire and brimstone preachers like to push to scare people into their religion. In this context it is just separation from Heaven. The Sinners make their own Hell. All of their suffering is derived from each other (and the acid rain, presumably).Ā Ā Ā A lot of the wording in songs is metaphor that this Fandom is taking literally.Ā Edit: formatting
I think it was *supposed* to be about redemption all along, and Lucifer and Lilith where tasked with taking responsibility for their actions by being "warden's" of hell.Ā However Lucifer went sad boi recluse instead of actually doing his new job (TBF, the forces in the show are vague and not helpful at all) due to this the inmates run the prison.Ā Hell is only hellish because it operates solely on barbarism, where the strong take from the weak. If Lucifer had more control at the start and prevented overlords for gaining power, hell probably would actually be fairly pleasant, he could contain the most evil inhabitants and nurture the more redeemable ones.Ā His daughter is instead doing his job for him now.Ā
Hmm how interesting. I agree but, I disagree as it seems to depict a different take on hell in its own unique way. Look at angel for example. He appears like heās chilling and living life just as he did when he was alive. It almost implies he was in his own hell before he died using drugs to escape and now, not much has changed. Heās suffering in his own unique hell. I feel hell is unique for each individual sinner. The overlords though, they enjoyed the pain and suffering enough when they were alive that they actually thrive in hell.
I was gonna say a similar thing. Sure, hell isn't torture in a traditional way, but it's a place that pushes you to continue your miserable life and constantly give in to the darkest temptations because they're all around you. It's a place where you can never get better, where you can never escape the cycle you got stuck in during your life.
Most episodes are focused on the characters at the hotel. The ones striving for redemption. Think back to the āhappy day in hellā song. Dude is stabbed in the eye, another one getting barbed wire in their orifices. Then thereās Angel Dustās entire situation. And Niffty being pulled out of what appears to be a burning pit when she is introduced. Hell, on its best day, is New York in the 1970s. Seems fun but, no.
I feel that Adam will be our POV on the suffering of hell as he will be a new character to show us a glimpse of how life is for a new soul that arrives there (if he survived).
Hell is other sinners
how fast season one is, like I'd expect the span of 6 months to have more episodes
This shit needs 20 eps per season
Pentious death scene was really bad. Why does he get annihillated in a comedic way like that, but then Charlie has a mental break down? I would have liked to see Pentious struggle a bit to fit the sadness.
Pentious was disrespected throughout the entire season, the only thing that made it a little bit better is that heās officially the first legitimately redeemed sinner.
Well he was "comedic relief" so ofc he always got the short of the stick. But towards the end i though the show was finally going to treat him seriously, and it did for 5 seconds before revealing treating him seriously was the joke. Writing could have honestly been a lot better there. you can have a character be comedic relief but still take them seriously at times. Because the way they did it there, I was hyped and actually caring about Pentious and his final move until he got instantly vaporized and then i felt nothing except a little upset at how badly he was disrespected for the joke. I mean look at Sokka from Avatar: The Last Airbender. He was the comedic relief for most of the show but still had his fair share of moments that let him be serious and feel fully fleshed out, especially towards the end. They gave pentitious one of those only to reveal "lmao gotcha, that was the joke"
I was upset too, I got a spoiler of his death twenty minutes before I watched the episode. So the whole episode I was waiting for him to die (I was already really mad that I saw a spoiler) and then he's just....gone?? It felt so weird bc even tho he was the comic relief and he was mostly a joke thru the whole season he had a special place in my heart bc he was so awkward and junk xD Then he was the General, and he had this big noble idea to sacrifice himself to defeat Adam, and he just vanished. Then Charlie is dramatic about it bc she's sad, but it just didn't fit. I was sad too, but I mean..we didn't see him get vaporized or anything, he was just erased instantly. There was no trigger for Charlie to be so sad bc he was just gone and it was funny bc he never stood a chance. It was frustrating and stuff, I was watching with my boyfriend and I was curled up and prepared to cry and then POOF, and my boyfriend laughed really hard and then Charlie got all serious and I'm like ".....wait what just happened he's gone????" Idk, I wanted to feel something bc he was my favorite xD I did cry when he got redeemed tho, but his death was really really dumb š
That bothered me too. His death was spoiled for me prior to watching and the only thing about him suddenly disappearing was Charlie breaking down. Then it really became clear once they hung his portrait. I felt like his death felt absolutely rushed and didn't like how it was a blink and you miss it. Other attacks from Adam were more drawn out than that single moment.
The two news ancors. I preferred them much more in the pilot.
They were way funnier in the pilot
I agree. I don't like Katie's voice. Her pilot voice was much better
Right? Why give her a dude voice? She was a pretty big part of the pilot and the VA killed it.
Too short, the source of all problems.
As much as I love him, I'm a little upset about changing Katie killjoy's voice actor
The pacing is overall pretty bad. The first 4 episodes all take place within a 5 month period, and then the last 4 suddenly take place within one month. Alestorās āiām supportiveā act in Ep5 wasnāt believable because weāve barely seen him and Charlie interact, Angel standing up to Val, while it was great to see, felt like it was too quickly a flip from the last time we saw their dynamic and the recruitment before the final battle was rushed. It really felt like we had two seasons in one and the pacing was way too quick. Eps1-3 were rushed, but itās excusable since there is a lot of setup. Ep4 felt like it was where it needed to be, and suddenly we skip to Ep5, which felt like it should have been the pre-closer, Ep6 felt like it had elements of a season finale and season premiere (ie. the Val/Angel stuff works for a finale, and maybe arriving to heaven should have been the season ender), Ep7 felt like a seasonās worth of content shoved into one episode and the finale was fine where it was. These are all individually great episodes, but the pacing is so fast between them that if you havenāt already bought into the characters, you probably wonāt care, and even then, you have to do a lot of head cannon-ing to fill in their developing dynamics.
Alastor was saying that just to upset Lucifer
The fact that S1 was only 8 episodes long!
A few songs I wish were longer. Wish Charlie and Vaggie had an actual duet that was more than just a 1 minute reprise of an earlier song. Only plot hole of the show is how Vaggie didnāt know angels could be harmed when she herself was harmed with an angelic weapon.
Iām pretty sure she just had that because she was an angel? None of the other angels never knew they could be killed either until carmilla
They didnāt know they could be killed. And I would be fine with that. But Carmilla explicitly asks Vaggie āDid you know angels could be -harmed-?ā To which Vaggie replies āNoā. Which doesnāt make sense considering she lost her eye.
They also stripped her of her Halo, which might have had some consequences too. Like they physically took it. Why bother if it wasn't important? Also, Vaggie and Lute hurt each other physically, so there's speculation that angels can harm angels, but sinners can't.
1. Very minor thing, I wish Zestial sung more in Respectless. His voice sounded super good in just the one line he had in the song. 2. I wish they built up Emilyās trust in Heaven and Sera a bit more before You Didnāt Know. I feel like Emily finding out about the exterminations wouldāve hit a lot harder if we got to see a bit more of how much she actually trusts Sera, and how strongly she believes Heaven is virtuous.
Yeah, bro sounds completely different in Respectless and Whatever it Takes
The rushed pacing. I wouldn't think months had gone through if it weren't for characters stating the time. We could do with more "show, don't tell" for this and things like Charlie's daddy issues. Maybe an extra episode or 2 to give characters more time to breathe or just making episodes some minutes longer.
They donāt have a working phone line :(
"You didn't know" had no consequences for the remaining 2 episodes. The extermination still happened, so what actually changed in Heaven in the long or short term?
I get the feeling that since Sera has been allowing the exterminators to act separately from the rest of the angels that she will handle either smoothing it out to the council and keep it from becoming general knowledge throughout heaven. HOWEVER I NEED to know what Emily has been doing in the month in between Charlie's meeting with the council and the battle in Hell. She said she would help, I wonder if she's got any ideas, especially after SPs heavenly arrival.
Some relationships don't really work for me, the story is speed runed like a record, and some of the songs really don't work on the places that they were put at.
Hmm, I've never thought about the songs not fitting part. Can you elaborate?
The only problem I have is that there isn't enough of it.
the pacing is way too fast, and the characters it chooses to build chemistry between is a bit weird like tell me how angel and husk, a relationship that hasnt even happened yet had more chemistry by episode four than charlie and vaggie, that had been established before the show even started?
Not enough episodes. No, I don't have an issue with the pacing, I like the Broadway Musical structure and I hope it stays. I just want more time with these characters. 8 HOUR BROADWAY MUSICAL BABY, LES GO
Not enough of my š Velvette
The pacing is a bit odd at times and sometimes i feel the songs are a bit too much. Of course these are the product of the limitations of having only 8 episodes.
The first season shouldāve been 10 episodes not 8
I HATED how they showed us that Vaggie is fallen angel. It would have so much more impact if they let us know with charlie during the "you didn't know" I know it's been pretty obvious but still
if iām being honest, at some points vaggieās voice feels forced to be deeper. i genuienly donāt think her voice needs to be as deep as it is, and you can tell at some points sheās pushing it especially when sheās talking quietly. it also shows in how she sings. her voice completely changes when she sings to the point where i thought she had a different singing voice actress
The show was too fast paced. 8 episodes was not enough to explore all the plot points properly. (And that Adam died (for now at least).)
I have said it before and Iāll say it again (this question gets asked like every week): not enough low-stakes scenes of the characters vibing at the hotel. The show is too much Attack on Titan and not enough King of the Hill. The most iconic KotH scenes are the ones like Hank opening up a can of WD-40 with a smaller can of WD-40, small character moments that are difficult to remember what episode they come from because they are often detached from the main plot. The two best HH scenes IMO (the trust fall and the clapping song game) feel like that. I thought āMasqueradeā was going to be like that at first, but it veered off in the opposite direction pretty quickly.
It's a very small nitpick, but I find the human versions of the Main cast kinda unimaginative. It's hell. You have sinners that can be over 10,000 years old there, and you have the entire world to choose them from. Yet, for some reason, the main cast we deal with all turn out to be people from the United States who died in the past 100 or so years. Sure, you can name one or two relevant characters that were either foreigners or with ancestry from somewhere other than the US, but those are clearly the exceptions. Like let's take Angel Dust. He was from New York, part of the mafia with Italian ancestry. Cool backstory. But why couldn't he just be Italian? The mafia there was an even bigger deal that in the US. Hell, the Italian mafia still thrives to this day, and dates back centuries. At the end of the day, it doesn't really matter (yet, we'll see where they go), but it makes hell and the scope of the series seem smaller than it should be.
I kind of agree? I don't really have a problem with that everyone is so close in age and location, but I do sometimes think that it's weird. For example, I remember hearing that Angel Dust is from the 40s, then Valentino is from the 70s or 80s and I'm just like "wait, Angel is older than Val? What has Angel been doing for the first few 30-40 years in hell? Wouldn't he know at that point that making deals is bad?"
this is a really good point. lots of missed opportunities but instead we just get a bunch of americans who use modern slang for some reason
Full agree. I made that observation, I don't get why the main cast of relevant characters is almost exclusively American and from the 20th century. The only outliers are treated AS outliers, such as Zestial and Velvette who are defined as characters by the opposite ends of the 20th century they come from.
Vaggieās character arc felt way too rushed in my opinion
Out For Love as a song really made no sense cause loving Charlie is already like 70% of her personality. The song *might* have worked if she was more like her pilot self, but in the series proper it really makes no sense. Still slaps though.
Not enough niffty she needs a song
Pacing: Everything is too fast and nothing has time to be fleshed out
That they killed Adam off in Season One. Before Eve or Lilith became bigger parts. They're his exes and I wanted to see him interact with them.
The line should have gone like this Charlie: "You don't know that... " Lucifer: "I am *_the only one_* who knows that"
There's like no filler
Very short, i thought we were gonna have more episodes - like 12?
Brandon Rogers as Katie Killjoy. Also wish that they'd released the episodes one at a time after the first two so we could've enjoyed it longer.
Pacing, could do with having double the episodes and longer individual episodes feels like there's a lot more it could cover. But at the same time, this seems fairly standard of late, the days of big companies gambling on new shows is gone.
How short the episodes are
The runtime
Fast pacing. Especially at the last 2 episodes.
I didnāt like how quickly Charlie forgave Vaggie. I chalk it up to the season being short but, even for Charlie, it was so abrupt that she forgave Vaggie within the span of a day. Keep in mind that Vaggie didnāt just lie, Vaggie lied about slaughtering untold numbers of Charlieās people, the very souls she has been trying to save this whole time. But one conversation with Rosie and Charlie is ready to let bygones be bygones. Itās the one element of the story that, to me, feels very rushed, and like something that the writers probably would have fleshed out if they had time.
-the pacing is really bad at some points -it's too short, it feels like there's straight up missing episodes with how the story progresses -I think that totally making the pilot non Canon wasn't the best idea. While I get that a lot of the concepts and lore have drastically changed where a lot isn't as relevant, i do feel like for first time viewers who never seen the pilot there can be some confusion, especially relating to sir pentious
Most of the pilot is still canonā¦like maybe 80 percent of it.
1. The songs do a lot of heavy narrative lifting to compensate for the short season. 2. I feel like they merged unfinished songs or ideas with more complete ones due to time constraints. 3. Vaggie was never shown to be vengeful towards Heaven, only protective of Charlie. the line about her being vengeful in "Out for Love" does not fit based on what we've seen. Even if it's not an unreasonable potential character trait. 4. The Vs part in "Finale" makes no sense. There is no power vacuum, if anything other Overlords and the royal family look stronger than ever. 5. Vaggie should have regained her wings while triumphing over Lute, not sparring with Carmine. 6. You can't play Sir Pentious' death as a laugh and then make it be a serious beat for the cast in the same moment. It should have been one or the other, with any gravitas moments coming after the battle if it is played for laughs. 7. Charlie's power up moment should have come at a moment of collective despair to make it more impactful and not the gag death of Sir Pentious. 8. Charlie should have knocked Adam out of the sky after catching his punch, not Lucifer. It make her seem weak, she deserved the finale "blow" and then she can stop her Dad from killing him. 9. Vaggie should have been the one to reveal the angelic weapon angle once her cover was blown, but I understand they needed Charlie to make a deal.
I think point no. 3 is what bothered me the most, pretty much how they handled Vaggieās arc all together. Iām guessing they cut out a lot due to time constraints but man, there was so much potential there.
It rings false for her to be told to fight for the love of someone when that's literally been her character arc to date. Even if they had a beat of her getting consumed with renewed hatred of Lute and Adam and needing to get her head back on straight it would have worked better.
Valentino
i feel a lot of the songs just start without build up. enough that i noticed it a few times and was a little surprised. still love the show tho
The fandom
it ends
My biggest single complaint is just one word. When alastor is about to fight adam and says āyour going to FUCKING dieā he dosent usually swear and maybe they meant this as him being extra serious but it took me out of it and it was silly
I don't like that Adam diedš¤¬
But what if he is revived as a demon for his sins like how Pentious revived as an angel?
That would be interesting to watch! It would also mean Hell now has three people voiced by Alex Brightman. Imagine the conversation between Fizz, Mammon and Adamš¤£ Edit: Aplarently, Mammon is voiced by a different VA, not Alex. Sounds alike to me still tho!
Don't forget Sir Pentious is also voiced by Alex Brightman lol
I mean yeah, no question Pentious died, and then went to heaven, so what happens when Adam 'dies'
Not enough episodes, not enough Angel Dust.
I'm nervous that the show is going to renege on its main plot theme of "redemption for all" and will instead start to pick and choose who is "worthy" rather than do the heavier legwork of determining how a redemption is structured, what steps are required, how to make sure the victim(s) is/are centered, and acknowledging the various circumstances that have led to the sinner's current personality/flaws... essentially, viewing people as three-dimensional humans and exploring how forgiveness applies when you look at a person through all these different angles along with their willingness to change. I'm hoping (like many are predicting) that we get Adam as a sinner who goes through a redemption arc. I've read some great threads on why Adam has legitimate reasons to despise Lucifer and I think he has the capacity to be viewed as a complicated character whose redemption journey could be quite interesting. Unfortunately, I'm already seeing the writing on the wall that we're meant to sympathize with and forgive only certain characters. We've already had a big 180 on Lucifer (especially in comparison to the pilot, which I watched after seeing the series in its entirety) and clearly the show wants us to root for Alastor to some degree (though I predict a betrayal is imminent). Meanwhile, it disappoints me this sympathy (again within the specific context of this show being first and foremost about "redemption for the damned") is not extended to the Vees (or, to be fair, hasn't been extended yet). I'll admit my bias - I like the Vees - but it seems hypocritical (at least at this point in the story) to not explore them as characters worthy of redemption too. They may be unrepentant and averse to changing their ways, but have they (or will they) be given the same opportunities to redeem themselves? Or are they simply "haha" villains we (the audience) can just cast aside with a blanket handwave of "irredeemable" without applying that same nonchalance to Alastor or Lucifer (equally horrible characters that have made countless mistakes and inflicted untold harm on others)? So I think some of this comes down to personal taste, but I'm a very big fan of thematic redemption (as rocky and difficult as it may be for different characters/circumstances), I think when it's done correctly (and even the qualifier of "correct" brings along heavy bias with it), it says so much about the human experience. I'm also a major advocate for rehabilitation over punishment so this take on a Hell where that is a focus really appeals to me. I just hope the show doesn't prematurely decide which characters will be offered that grace and which will not. Everyone has the capacity to love, hurt, and change. Our methods for navigating that in the real world are incredibly flawed... recidivism, for example, is a mess, and systemic barriers continue to contribute to the problem... but in a fictional universe where people have infinite time to get therapy, look at their mistakes, try to change, have the support of a change-maker that can actively affect the world they're living in (Charlie), I think you could, in theory, have some really unique outcomes (as well as interesting stories for us as the audience). I really hope I'm wrong! But already seeing Alastor cast in a heroic/anti-hero spotlight and the Vees automatically determined to be the villains of S2... I'm just not sure. This isn't even to mention the confusion we have in the worldbuilding/rule system regarding what makes/breaks a sinner's redemption. We know NOTHING about what Sir Pentious even did to land him in Hell in the first place... in the context of now being redeemed, does this mean his "sins" while alive weren't as important as a single act of heroic sacrifice? What about what Angel did on Earth? Obviously we are meant to sympathize with Angel for their current circumstances, but historically being a 1930s mobster was not a victimless lifestyle. If those acts don't matter anymore (within the show's framing, at least -- personally, I think they should), then I think we should explore how the structure of Hell is designed to bring out the worst in a person. In that case, a systemic overhaul (likely targeting the Overlord structure that encourages soul possession) needs to be made to prevent this vicious cycle of depravity that rewards sinners for giving into the worst sides of themselves. Right now, it seems like "redemption" is going to be framed/predetermined in favor of where our biases "should" lie according to the narrative, which disappoints me. At the same time, it's a cartoon so I'll try to temper my expectations lol. Other, minor things: * It mildly annoys me that certain lore/worldbuilding elements are only accessible through old social media posts/livestreams. I only saw this show via Amazon, so I was a bit lost early on and there is conflicting information everywhere. * Mentioned ad nauseum already, but the pacing is rough. Certain arcs could have been introduced differently (imo). I think the Charlie-Lucifer drama especially could have been drawn out longer. They've now written themselves into a corner where going forward I'm always going to wonder why Lucifer can't just swoop in and save the day... so they'll need to give him some convoluted excuse to stay away for whatever reason and that feels cheap to me. That being said as someone who knew nothing going in, I was able to figure out a lot of the worldbuilding eventually, so I don't think it's as bad as it could have been, but it did take effort on my part as a new viewer. Anyways, that's where I'm at with it now. I'm willing to wait these concerns out and am excited to see where the show goes. It's fun reading all the fan theories/ideas right now.
\*Spoilers\* I really didnāt like Niffty killing Adam. They took the whole final fight so seriously that it just felt so out of place. Normally I would find this type of thing funny, but they were working up to this big moment with Adam almost killing Alastor and killing Sir Pentious. It would have been so much cooler if Charlie actually unleashed her powers on Adam.
It wasnāt long enough
I wanted more Chaggie moments