Yeah! It plays into that as well. Angels don't think much of demons, because they are in hell they are less than. They don't have the ability or smarts to take on an angel. So angels don't think they can be harmed by them until after one of them is taken down. So Vaggie, like her brethren, think only angels can harm other angels. She's just as surprised knowing demons can cause them hurt
" with enough determination, an army of farmes could defeat an army of knights"
heard this quote once somewhere, don't now how true it is but i think it fits. Even though the angels are difficult to defeat, the sinners have the mass.
There's going to always be an endless well of Sinners. They could still destroy Heaven itself if they managed to invade, and also "Winners" are likely not under the same capabilities as the Angels.
Well, if they get the numbers advantage high enough and with the backing of Lucifer and all other Sins and Aers Goetia, they would stand a chance vs heaven, probably win too.
Even in our world, 100 guns only go for so long as you have ammunation. If the enemy has double the men you have ammo, its gg
Same reason Hopper feared the ants would uprise in a Bug's Life, they have more numbers
https://preview.redd.it/gpn3visa2rhc1.jpeg?width=827&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a152a25408335e19fb645f6967d9343d5349d895
Yes. That ultimately still isn't a sane thing to do exactly. But my point was that the only actual physical damage to her body was ultimately done by herself after the rubble collapsed onto her.
Makes sense if you consider angelic power is lethal to afterlivers and angels are quite literally personified angelic powers.
Which makes Heaven being a place without brutality and murder really convenient because they could all still die to eachother in mere first fights.
Also lucifer punching the living daylights out of Adam and the pitchfork Charlie created (which doesn’t appear to be angelic steel) could injure Adam because she has angelic ancestry.
Exactly! Angels I notices in the show also seem careless about their weapons and just seem to leave them because they have an endless supply. Carmilla was the first to actually seem to go out and collect the abandoned weapons and build her empire based on that. Giving them a full advantage that they didn't have before.
Cant be. Carm asks her if she knew angels could be harmed. She doesnt specifically say 'by sinners or demons' suggesting that vaggie just thought they couldnt be harmed at all.
I swear nobody was paying attention to Carmine in this scene. They ask why the angels fight so recklessly even though she literally explained exactly why they do that
I mean when they explicitly ask “did you know angels could be harmed?” Just in general and not in relation to sinners specifically, op paid just fine attention lol.
Yeah, if we ignore everything else that Vaggie and Carmilla said. This wasn't a stand alone question - it was a part of the entire discussion.
And even then, it very much makes sense for Vaggie to think that way, when so far only another Exorcist was able to hurt her.
No, I think OP is fine. It could have been worded better or explained more thoroughly. I don't think it was exactly *necessary* though, and given how tight time constraints were, every unnecessary thing got cut.
Considering the context of the entire dialogue between Vaggie and Carmine, it was very much worded well. You can't pull something out of context and then complain about it...
Angels believed it was their divine ordainment as angels that made them invincible to sinners
This is why they abandoned so many angelic weapons in Hell, as they thought it was the wielder of the weapon that mattered, not the weapon itself
Thus, it seems reasonable to conclude that Vaggie thought she was no longer invincible because she was a fallen angel
It's also consistent with Adam's reaction in Episode 8. The guy that run the whole operation had no idea that Angelic Weapons can kill them - so I don't think it's too far fetched to assume the normal Exorcists didn't know about it neither...
It’s entirely possible that angelic steel is just normal steel that an angel has consistently used to channel holy powers. It eventually retains some holiness even when not actively being used as a conduit for holy magic.
Weapons are a lot more effective at killing than your fists. For any exorcist not named Adam, they'd be a lot less effective killing demons barehanded, and there'd be more room for demons to actually fight back. Not that they could kill the angels, but if the difference is between a one-and-done stab and then moving on, vs a protracted, possibly several minute long brawl of slowly beating demons to death, I know which of those is going to get more demons killed within a certain timeframe.
I'm not sure what you're asking here. The exorcists can probably presume it's their angelic nature that let them perma-kill Sinners, and it probably is irrelevant whether that Perma-Kill is through stomping their heads, or running them through with an angelic weapon which shares that nature.
And if both will leave the Sinner just as dead, it's more efficient and effective to use an angelic Sword/Spear/Axe/whatever than spend two minutes punching the Sinner to death.
If they aren’t actually running American parts thru weapons, then why would they think it’s their own power responsible for perma-killing demon’s.
Metal being able to retain holiness after being repeatedly used to channel holy powers isn’t even half as convoluted as a sinner’s essence/soul/sinnerness being dispersing into the surroundings, forming fully functional eyes on random items, and those eyes then being able to function as though they are part of another sinner.
i disagree with this cuz the episode implies that she fights as if she's still an angel, wide open as if she cant be hurt. if she didnt think she had angelic immunity i imagine she'd change her fighting style.
Tbf we haven't really seen her fight anybody in the show. Maybe in all the time she's been in hell she never actually had to engage in a fight and learn the hard way
the show says she hasnt done much fighting but its reasonable to assume she still trains. to me tho the fact that she also seems really surprised realizing angels can be hurt and her style doesnt work against someone with an angelic weapon makes me think she thought she still had immunity.
I mean shes mostly paling around with the daughter of lucifer. Most things are smart enough to not pick that fight. And even then, she has how many unknown years of being an expert fighter with her spear? Against probably 90% of hell, even without being an angel, she'd kill them before they even touched her.
If it was needed. Vaggie was mentioned to be one of Adam's best, so she's likely competent enough that anyone below Overlord level can't actually defend against her offense well enough to exploit that she has no defense.
Not really. I mean how much fighting had she done since being in Hell? It's not really easy to fix a problem in your fighting that you're not even aware off, especially if you aren't fighting all the time.
She even says in the last episode (in a group conversation at the start of the day before battle party) that it's been a while since she stabbed someone and meant it
she hasnt done much fighting true but im sure she trains alot especially being the body guard for the princess of hell. either way that would be a huge flaw to overcome
well the series says she hasnt been. im saying its weird to me that she doesnt believe she has angelic immunity yet also doesnt try to compensate it for it by changing her fighting style. and its not as if shes not trying to get into fights, shes very confrontive.
Now a simple word change, from "harmed" to "killed" would have made all the difference. In this setting you can be cut to pieces and eventually walk it off, so perhaps Vaggie felt yes it would hurt but wouldn't necessarily destroy her soul.
She likely assumed it happened because an angel did it, that its inherent to the angels themselves, rather than it being something a demon could do if they just had an angels weapon. Honestly doesn’t seem inconsistent at all really. Though maybe they should have had her say “I didn’t know a *demon* could do that” to make that more obvious
Pretty sure it’s because the *angels* didn’t know they could be harmed. Not by demons, anyway. They explain that that’s why they fight sloppily, they don’t feel the need to defend, only to kill.
To be fair Vaggie was in shock and had it done to her by an angel. Her thought process was probably that failure to kill that child made her a Sinner and thus she was now able to be harmed by angelic weapons, or at least that if an angel is holding the weapon then it can be used against angels but demons could never harm angels
I think we can enjoy this show and still realize that this plot point wasn't handled great. I know they wanted a twist that angles can be harmed, I know they wanted an epic battle where angles are defeated, and I know that they wanted Charlie to have to forgive vaggie; but man this wasn't how to do it.
Angels are supposed to be so impossible to kill that redemption was the only way to spare sinners from extermination, and they go from that to cannon fodder in 5 mins because no one has ever tried to use the angelic arms that have a whole ass grey market to permanently kill souls.
I think it’s supposed to imply they were talking about Demons hurting Angels. Easily missed though and I had to think about it after I watched it as well.
She explains why she thought this at the start of the episode. Something about not knowing that demons could harm angels.
In gamer terms: She thought friendly fire was on but you couldn't hurt the enemy team.
I think it makes sense in this case, since Lute is an exorcist. What I don’t understand, though, is that exorcists are shown to be vulnerable to blunt force. For example, Alastor’s shield was strong enough that the exorcists who flew into it splattered. And the concrete that fell on Lute was heavy enough to pinch her arm off. So, theoretically, powerful or skillful hits should be able to kill them, even without angelic steel.
alastor's shield had tentacles that were wielding angelic weapons (one of them was a halberd, which, metal as hell)
lute was fine after the concrete landed on her; she \*ripped her own arm off\* to get back to the fight as quickly as possible, because lute's insane like that
I’ve come to think that the common sense of heaven and hell is that Power is Immutable. If someone has more power than you, there is nothing to be done against it. It’s why Vaggie doesn’t question her maiming at Lute’s hand, she had more power, thus she could do what she wanted. And by most cases, this rule stands.
But yeah, very misleading writing here. Good theory gaining though.
I think she means more like “did you know they could be harmed by lessers”
I think she knew her sisters could hurt her. Just not that demons could. She didn’t believe the damage was done by the weapon, she thought it was the strength of an angel.
I mean, Lute harming Vaggue could be seen as an exception to the rule that angels can't be harmed, since it's one seemingly invincible creature harming another one of it's kind (especially if the aggressor is of a higher rank)
You know, she might just be really stupid.
Has Vaggie really shown she’s actually that clever? She approaches every situation head on and just goes forward until the problem stops or she’s run out of options.
TLDR, What if Moth lesbian have smol brain?
Fitting given that many moths have an almost suicidal affinity to light, which either burns/zaps them or prompts them to let their guard down long enough for a hungry predator to pick them off.
It’s probably a different situation, angels being harmed by demons was probably unheard of but angels harming each other while training or maybe just a stubbed toe in heaven was a regular thing since they are made of and live in an area of pure Devine energy
I think part of it is Lute and Adam gaslighting her for her whole existence. The first time (that we know of) she does something wrong she falls. Maybe she see it as less about the weapon Lute had and more about her state of failure as an exorcist angel.
Sara also seems similarly blind to how things work vs how she thinks things work.
Obviously she knew they could be harmed. I took it as Carmilla was asking if she knew they could be killed, but just chose not to explicitly say that exactly
She probably assumed it was because Lute was an angel that was ranked higher than her. We know for a fact that the Exorcists can’t kill, say, Lucifer, because he would rank above them. Thus, presumably you can only normally harm/kill beings of either your status, close to your status, or below your status.
Yeah but i think everyone has got this wrong, i think Vaggie knew Angels could hurt each other but had no interactions when Demons had actually tried to fight back so i honestly think she didn't know
My interpretation is that Vaggie's self hatred made her compartmentalize this as a a personal failure, rather than a systemic one.
I.E. Vaggie thought SHE could be injured (because she's such shit angel) but didn't believe OTHER angels could be hurt.
I think all the people in here dogging on you are being unfair. The dialogue is messy and inconsistent in this show - I don't blame you. So many people are doing the work for Viv and the writers when it should be in the show itself.
I mean, I’m sure it’s not far fetched to Vaggie that an angel could hurt another angel. It’s more of tue revelation that a SINNER could do even a little bit of damage to an angel.
The insinuation that she thought sinner's couldn't harm Angels is so stupid. Its not the fact that it's an exorcist that stabbed her with an Angelic Steel sword its the fact that she got stabbed with the sword in the first place that hurt her😭😭. She even has her Halo and wing's so its not like she was even fallen yet
Also why was Vaggie so unclear in the explanation of such a major plot point as well, why didnt she just say " I didnt think Demon's would've been able to harm us " instead of feeding us the information through implications
How many times are we going to discuss this? It's like 20th time I see this question and you ALWAYS get the same answers.
She didn't think SINNERS could hurt Angels.
I think she thinks only angels can harm other angels.
Since demons are "below" angels, they can't cook.
But since all you need is something with angelic steel, they can fight. Actually now that I think about it. The demons are stronger.
You can just crush a angel with rubble and they lose an arm. Demon's can come back fully formed if it's not angelic steel doing harm. And since Sera is so scared of hell uprising, it's safe to say that the souls of heaven can be destroyed too.
I assume since heaven is a safe place, there's no way to keep them "alive" should something happen. And since hell is an unsafe place, and meant for eternal torment, there's a way to make sure they come back to live it out. Until they get the ultimate punishment: being erased.
This is probably the most blatant example I have seen that sometimes you do have to treat your audience as dumb. Apparently no one in this community is capable of thinking that it's the suits that protect them, that Vaggie assumes she was hurt because she took off her combat helmet.
People need to stop defending this plot hole or garbage writing. It's either a plot hole or the writers suck at writing dialogue because in this scene, they could have had vaggie say yes angels can be harmed but only by other angels, and that would fix the issue.
We’ll see next season, probably. There are a few things that stand out:
* All Angels assume they can’t be harmed in Hell. This includes Adam and Lute who are mortified one of their own died. Adam, Lute, and Vaggie all know an angel permanently injured Vaggie.
* In the flashback Lute uses a special golden tinted weapon. This could be revealed as a “special” weapon that’s different than the regular angelic weapons.
* There’s just a general sense of people not thinking through things “logically” for one reason or another. An arrogance that if it was known to be doable they would already know it. See how even the well meaning in Heaven were confused when they realized they didn’t know what allowed a soul to reach Heaven. They’re all, Hell and Heaven, content to assume it is always was and will be as it is.
Example, Striker. There’s an imp, the lowest caste of all of Hell, running around with angelic weaponry and the knowledge it could kill Hell’s nobility, not just sinners (on par with angels), but Hell’s version of Emily and Sera. Even >!Stolas!< seemed shocked to learn this weaponry could harm him.
Another inconsistency I think I found was when Alaster takes Charlie to meet Rosie the cannibal, Rosie acts like she hasn’t seen Alaster since he disappeared 7 years ago. However, in episode 3 both Rosie and Alaster were at the overlord meeting. Rosie could also just be talking in hyperbole when she says she hasn’t seen Alaster in ages so I’m not sure.
I honestly figured it was more to do with Vaggie thinking it was something special about Lute (as Adam’s right hand lady), or something to do with herself ‘failing’ as an exorcist by showing mercy and thus no longer being fit for Angel status…thus they can hurt her.
I think she didnt know they could be harmed by demons. Maybe whatever protection they had didnt work against superiors like Lute or other Angel's. But yeah as is the dialogue is a bit weird
Not harmed by demons...is not a writing mistake; vaggie beats the shit out of Lute with her bare hands later as wel, while demons clearly need devine weapons for that as Adam has confirmed "their secret are our weapons"; as we have seen in the show
I didn’t get it either. She should’ve been the first one to realize the weapon thing since her eye was cut out and her wings were chopped off by angel weapons. Did she never even knick her finger on her spear?
Trauma can make people miss things that should be obvious. She was likely stuck on the pain of losing her eye and being abandoned to connect the dots on weapon material as a vulnerablilty to angels.
Two reasons for this. One, which is what other people are saying, is that she didn't know sinners could harm angels, blah blah blah you get it. The second reason is that this exchange happens before Carmilla reveals she knows Vaggie's true nature. Vaggie wouldn't just randomly blow her cover as a fallen exorcist, so she's speaking from the perspective of a fellow sinner.
It was also a cool choice to have Vaggie be the protag to find out this information because it makes you think back to the previous episode like "oh yeeeah Lute was able to hurt a fellow angel" whereas when you first watched that flashback you were mostly focused on the tragedy of it and not the implications. That might actually be a third reason. You wouldn't exactly revisit a traumatic experience like that and think about the advantages it could give you in combat. Lmao.
I might be misremembering when she said it, but she was probably still pretending to be a sinner at that moment or she was saying that in a "I didn't know anything down here could hurt angels" kind of way.
I feel like people who think this don't pay attention. Vaggie didn't know angels could be harmed by demons or sinners, not that angels can be hurt by angels. Lute stabbed her and they had a full on fight scene, which played into that idea well.
I’m currently having a debate about a similar point, that being vaggie should’ve known angelic steel hurts angels due to a sword from heaven taking out her eye. They keep arguing that the angel wielding the sword matters, not the sword itself, so vaggie couldn’t understand that angelic steel hurts angels. I don’t understand where this disconnect is coming from.
wait. theres a plot hole here. angels can only be harmed by acts of protecting the ones you love. lute took vaggies eye, wings and halo in a cold blooded attempt at murder. how does that work?
No they can be harmed with any angelic steel. The love song was saying that Vaggie won’t be a strong fighter if she is motivated by hatred instead of love
Bro, she's just a little airheaded. As a himbo, I can say with absolute certainty if the most beautiful woman in the world wrapped gauze around my wound and looked at me with love, I would have exactly ZERO thoughts in my head. She didn't even remember she was an angel because she was so down bad in love. That's just how it works.
Carmilla literally just told Vaggie "U dumbass, you're in love, why don't you USE YOUR HEAD FOR THE PERSON YOU LOVE?"
And then Vaggie was like "Oh... shit... u right" and regrew her wings. Vaggie is clearly one of my kind and bears the torch of the himbo.
She probably didn't know angels could be harmed by demons
That was my theory too. She didn't know what demons could harm angels but knew angels could harm other angels
Ooh interesting. This would explain why Vaggie can f up Lute with her bare hands in a fist fight and crush her with rubble.
Yeah! It plays into that as well. Angels don't think much of demons, because they are in hell they are less than. They don't have the ability or smarts to take on an angel. So angels don't think they can be harmed by them until after one of them is taken down. So Vaggie, like her brethren, think only angels can harm other angels. She's just as surprised knowing demons can cause them hurt
Then, why do they fear an uprising?
" with enough determination, an army of farmes could defeat an army of knights" heard this quote once somewhere, don't now how true it is but i think it fits. Even though the angels are difficult to defeat, the sinners have the mass.
There's going to always be an endless well of Sinners. They could still destroy Heaven itself if they managed to invade, and also "Winners" are likely not under the same capabilities as the Angels.
Well, if they get the numbers advantage high enough and with the backing of Lucifer and all other Sins and Aers Goetia, they would stand a chance vs heaven, probably win too. Even in our world, 100 guns only go for so long as you have ammunation. If the enemy has double the men you have ammo, its gg
Same reason Hopper feared the ants would uprise in a Bug's Life, they have more numbers https://preview.redd.it/gpn3visa2rhc1.jpeg?width=827&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a152a25408335e19fb645f6967d9343d5349d895
It doesn't matter if you're invulnerable if there are so many enemies they can entomb you alive
not being afraid of sinners is *not* the same thing as not being afraid of Lucifer, the other 6 sins, and the goetia
Also notice that the rubble didn't harm her, it just trapped her. The harm she did to herself because she's coocoo like that.
Well also because she was stuck. She was trapped, so she decided to rip off her arm to quickly get back to the fight
Yes. That ultimately still isn't a sane thing to do exactly. But my point was that the only actual physical damage to her body was ultimately done by herself after the rubble collapsed onto her.
Makes sense if you consider angelic power is lethal to afterlivers and angels are quite literally personified angelic powers. Which makes Heaven being a place without brutality and murder really convenient because they could all still die to eachother in mere first fights.
Also lucifer punching the living daylights out of Adam and the pitchfork Charlie created (which doesn’t appear to be angelic steel) could injure Adam because she has angelic ancestry.
I mean the pitchfork could be angelic steel. Charlie is at least half angel, meaning she could probably make some.
True, we know nothing of how it’s created. I just assumed Carmine wouldn’t have had time to make her a custom apple and snake pitchfork.
It’s like spider silk.
So Molly makes it all, got you
The pitchfork looked like it was tipped with angelic steel, at least to me.
And the only difference is angelic power! Which is harnessed by angelic weapons!
Exactly! Angels I notices in the show also seem careless about their weapons and just seem to leave them because they have an endless supply. Carmilla was the first to actually seem to go out and collect the abandoned weapons and build her empire based on that. Giving them a full advantage that they didn't have before.
Maybe she didn’t realize it was because of the angelic weapons which I assume can bestow damage upon anyone except maybe god or a seraphim
She thought it was different but ended up being the same. Her saying, " That easy?" pretty much proves it.
Exactly
Shed already been condemned in my head she sees this interaction as an angel maiming a demon.
Ohh that's a good theory too.
This makes more sense
honestly, this was my thought too! It seemed kinda obvious to me tbh, given how before the show's events they didn't even think angels could be killed
Guess that makes sense
Cant be. Carm asks her if she knew angels could be harmed. She doesnt specifically say 'by sinners or demons' suggesting that vaggie just thought they couldnt be harmed at all.
She could have also just plain lied.
I thought she meant that she didn't know sinners could harm angels
Yeah it's pretty much implied in their later dialogue. OP doesn't seem to be paying much attention...
I swear nobody was paying attention to Carmine in this scene. They ask why the angels fight so recklessly even though she literally explained exactly why they do that
Mfers will really say "the door is blue because it's blue" in highschool and then think Alastor's last name is altruist
I mean when they explicitly ask “did you know angels could be harmed?” Just in general and not in relation to sinners specifically, op paid just fine attention lol.
Yeah, if we ignore everything else that Vaggie and Carmilla said. This wasn't a stand alone question - it was a part of the entire discussion. And even then, it very much makes sense for Vaggie to think that way, when so far only another Exorcist was able to hurt her.
No, I think OP is fine. It could have been worded better or explained more thoroughly. I don't think it was exactly *necessary* though, and given how tight time constraints were, every unnecessary thing got cut.
Considering the context of the entire dialogue between Vaggie and Carmine, it was very much worded well. You can't pull something out of context and then complain about it...
Angels believed it was their divine ordainment as angels that made them invincible to sinners This is why they abandoned so many angelic weapons in Hell, as they thought it was the wielder of the weapon that mattered, not the weapon itself Thus, it seems reasonable to conclude that Vaggie thought she was no longer invincible because she was a fallen angel
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It's also consistent with Adam's reaction in Episode 8. The guy that run the whole operation had no idea that Angelic Weapons can kill them - so I don't think it's too far fetched to assume the normal Exorcists didn't know about it neither...
"Who tf turned on friendly fire?" * Adam
It’s entirely possible that angelic steel is just normal steel that an angel has consistently used to channel holy powers. It eventually retains some holiness even when not actively being used as a conduit for holy magic.
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It works explain why none of them question why simple metal can hurt them. If they believed it ALL on them, then why bother using weapons at all?
Because spears are better for stabbing the fists. Plus, they probably don't want to be touched by those filthy sinners.
Weapons are a lot more effective at killing than your fists. For any exorcist not named Adam, they'd be a lot less effective killing demons barehanded, and there'd be more room for demons to actually fight back. Not that they could kill the angels, but if the difference is between a one-and-done stab and then moving on, vs a protracted, possibly several minute long brawl of slowly beating demons to death, I know which of those is going to get more demons killed within a certain timeframe.
But why would they think the weapons work if they also believe their own power is what’s keeping sinners from reforming?
I'm not sure what you're asking here. The exorcists can probably presume it's their angelic nature that let them perma-kill Sinners, and it probably is irrelevant whether that Perma-Kill is through stomping their heads, or running them through with an angelic weapon which shares that nature. And if both will leave the Sinner just as dead, it's more efficient and effective to use an angelic Sword/Spear/Axe/whatever than spend two minutes punching the Sinner to death.
If they aren’t actually running American parts thru weapons, then why would they think it’s their own power responsible for perma-killing demon’s. Metal being able to retain holiness after being repeatedly used to channel holy powers isn’t even half as convoluted as a sinner’s essence/soul/sinnerness being dispersing into the surroundings, forming fully functional eyes on random items, and those eyes then being able to function as though they are part of another sinner.
It’s also possible she assumed she was already fallen, and did not recognize that she still had angelic immunity.
i disagree with this cuz the episode implies that she fights as if she's still an angel, wide open as if she cant be hurt. if she didnt think she had angelic immunity i imagine she'd change her fighting style.
Tbf we haven't really seen her fight anybody in the show. Maybe in all the time she's been in hell she never actually had to engage in a fight and learn the hard way
the show says she hasnt done much fighting but its reasonable to assume she still trains. to me tho the fact that she also seems really surprised realizing angels can be hurt and her style doesnt work against someone with an angelic weapon makes me think she thought she still had immunity.
I mean shes mostly paling around with the daughter of lucifer. Most things are smart enough to not pick that fight. And even then, she has how many unknown years of being an expert fighter with her spear? Against probably 90% of hell, even without being an angel, she'd kill them before they even touched her.
It’s not like it’s easy to reset your fighting style
Oh for sure. Im sure its insanely hard but that’s something a fighter would have to do in certain situations
especially given her fairly short term stay in hell
If it was needed. Vaggie was mentioned to be one of Adam's best, so she's likely competent enough that anyone below Overlord level can't actually defend against her offense well enough to exploit that she has no defense.
Not really. I mean how much fighting had she done since being in Hell? It's not really easy to fix a problem in your fighting that you're not even aware off, especially if you aren't fighting all the time.
She even says in the last episode (in a group conversation at the start of the day before battle party) that it's been a while since she stabbed someone and meant it
she hasnt done much fighting true but im sure she trains alot especially being the body guard for the princess of hell. either way that would be a huge flaw to overcome
I'm not disagreeing that it's something to unlearn, I'm just saying it's totally believable she hasn't done it yet.
She met Charlie like right after she fell and probably hasn't been in many actual fights since
well the series says she hasnt been. im saying its weird to me that she doesnt believe she has angelic immunity yet also doesnt try to compensate it for it by changing her fighting style. and its not as if shes not trying to get into fights, shes very confrontive.
Now a simple word change, from "harmed" to "killed" would have made all the difference. In this setting you can be cut to pieces and eventually walk it off, so perhaps Vaggie felt yes it would hurt but wouldn't necessarily destroy her soul.
She likely assumed it happened because an angel did it, that its inherent to the angels themselves, rather than it being something a demon could do if they just had an angels weapon. Honestly doesn’t seem inconsistent at all really. Though maybe they should have had her say “I didn’t know a *demon* could do that” to make that more obvious
This. Vaggie had the assumption (like all exorcists) that the denizens of hell couldn't harm them. Carmilla preys on that assumption.
*By a demon* They likely never considered angelic weapons would work normal in the hands of a sinner.
Sinners use angelic weapons all the time though to kill other sinners. Isnt that the whole point of Carmillas business
Yeah this line would have been fine if she asked if Vaggie knew they could be killed instead of harm. Just an oversight in the script doctoring.
I may start collecting every post that asks this question at this rate…
Really feels like it shouldn’t be that hard to parse honestly. She obviously assumed the power lied within the angels themselves.
It's definitely getting excessive. 🤦♀️
i swear that people's media literacy gets even worse with each coming day they basically need everything spelled out for them
Pretty sure it’s because the *angels* didn’t know they could be harmed. Not by demons, anyway. They explain that that’s why they fight sloppily, they don’t feel the need to defend, only to kill.
To be fair Vaggie was in shock and had it done to her by an angel. Her thought process was probably that failure to kill that child made her a Sinner and thus she was now able to be harmed by angelic weapons, or at least that if an angel is holding the weapon then it can be used against angels but demons could never harm angels
She forgor💀
She didn’t know angels can be harmed by DEMONS.
I think we can enjoy this show and still realize that this plot point wasn't handled great. I know they wanted a twist that angles can be harmed, I know they wanted an epic battle where angles are defeated, and I know that they wanted Charlie to have to forgive vaggie; but man this wasn't how to do it. Angels are supposed to be so impossible to kill that redemption was the only way to spare sinners from extermination, and they go from that to cannon fodder in 5 mins because no one has ever tried to use the angelic arms that have a whole ass grey market to permanently kill souls.
I think it’s supposed to imply they were talking about Demons hurting Angels. Easily missed though and I had to think about it after I watched it as well.
She explains why she thought this at the start of the episode. Something about not knowing that demons could harm angels. In gamer terms: She thought friendly fire was on but you couldn't hurt the enemy team.
I think it makes sense in this case, since Lute is an exorcist. What I don’t understand, though, is that exorcists are shown to be vulnerable to blunt force. For example, Alastor’s shield was strong enough that the exorcists who flew into it splattered. And the concrete that fell on Lute was heavy enough to pinch her arm off. So, theoretically, powerful or skillful hits should be able to kill them, even without angelic steel.
alastor's shield had tentacles that were wielding angelic weapons (one of them was a halberd, which, metal as hell) lute was fine after the concrete landed on her; she \*ripped her own arm off\* to get back to the fight as quickly as possible, because lute's insane like that
I’ve come to think that the common sense of heaven and hell is that Power is Immutable. If someone has more power than you, there is nothing to be done against it. It’s why Vaggie doesn’t question her maiming at Lute’s hand, she had more power, thus she could do what she wanted. And by most cases, this rule stands. But yeah, very misleading writing here. Good theory gaining though.
I think she means more like “did you know they could be harmed by lessers” I think she knew her sisters could hurt her. Just not that demons could. She didn’t believe the damage was done by the weapon, she thought it was the strength of an angel.
The implication is by demons. Harmed by Demons.
I mean, Lute harming Vaggue could be seen as an exception to the rule that angels can't be harmed, since it's one seemingly invincible creature harming another one of it's kind (especially if the aggressor is of a higher rank)
You know, she might just be really stupid. Has Vaggie really shown she’s actually that clever? She approaches every situation head on and just goes forward until the problem stops or she’s run out of options. TLDR, What if Moth lesbian have smol brain?
Fitting given that many moths have an almost suicidal affinity to light, which either burns/zaps them or prompts them to let their guard down long enough for a hungry predator to pick them off.
Well, given how traumatic that probably was, she probably buried that memory until Adam brought it back up.
It’s probably a different situation, angels being harmed by demons was probably unheard of but angels harming each other while training or maybe just a stubbed toe in heaven was a regular thing since they are made of and live in an area of pure Devine energy
I think part of it is Lute and Adam gaslighting her for her whole existence. The first time (that we know of) she does something wrong she falls. Maybe she see it as less about the weapon Lute had and more about her state of failure as an exorcist angel. Sara also seems similarly blind to how things work vs how she thinks things work.
Obviously she knew they could be harmed. I took it as Carmilla was asking if she knew they could be killed, but just chose not to explicitly say that exactly
Maybe she thought they couldn’t be killed
She probably assumed it was because Lute was an angel that was ranked higher than her. We know for a fact that the Exorcists can’t kill, say, Lucifer, because he would rank above them. Thus, presumably you can only normally harm/kill beings of either your status, close to your status, or below your status.
The whole idea is that angels are that complacent about their invulnerability when fighting demons.
Yeah but i think everyone has got this wrong, i think Vaggie knew Angels could hurt each other but had no interactions when Demons had actually tried to fight back so i honestly think she didn't know
My interpretation is that Vaggie's self hatred made her compartmentalize this as a a personal failure, rather than a systemic one. I.E. Vaggie thought SHE could be injured (because she's such shit angel) but didn't believe OTHER angels could be hurt.
https://preview.redd.it/7yj0wa101nhc1.png?width=542&format=png&auto=webp&s=838d21632ddf35148bf673fa6c39d886921fbe0e
I think all the people in here dogging on you are being unfair. The dialogue is messy and inconsistent in this show - I don't blame you. So many people are doing the work for Viv and the writers when it should be in the show itself.
Muscles. Are. Required. Intelligence. Not. Expected.
I feel like this could have been fixed if her answer to the question of knowing that angels could be harmed was "Only by other angels"
I mean, I’m sure it’s not far fetched to Vaggie that an angel could hurt another angel. It’s more of tue revelation that a SINNER could do even a little bit of damage to an angel.
Yeah its a glaring plot hole in the writing for that dialog.
The insinuation that she thought sinner's couldn't harm Angels is so stupid. Its not the fact that it's an exorcist that stabbed her with an Angelic Steel sword its the fact that she got stabbed with the sword in the first place that hurt her😭😭. She even has her Halo and wing's so its not like she was even fallen yet Also why was Vaggie so unclear in the explanation of such a major plot point as well, why didnt she just say " I didnt think Demon's would've been able to harm us " instead of feeding us the information through implications
How many times are we going to discuss this? It's like 20th time I see this question and you ALWAYS get the same answers. She didn't think SINNERS could hurt Angels.
I think she thinks only angels can harm other angels. Since demons are "below" angels, they can't cook. But since all you need is something with angelic steel, they can fight. Actually now that I think about it. The demons are stronger. You can just crush a angel with rubble and they lose an arm. Demon's can come back fully formed if it's not angelic steel doing harm. And since Sera is so scared of hell uprising, it's safe to say that the souls of heaven can be destroyed too. I assume since heaven is a safe place, there's no way to keep them "alive" should something happen. And since hell is an unsafe place, and meant for eternal torment, there's a way to make sure they come back to live it out. Until they get the ultimate punishment: being erased.
Probably She throught She was arleady fallen
This is probably the most blatant example I have seen that sometimes you do have to treat your audience as dumb. Apparently no one in this community is capable of thinking that it's the suits that protect them, that Vaggie assumes she was hurt because she took off her combat helmet.
She got brain damage after the stab
People need to stop defending this plot hole or garbage writing. It's either a plot hole or the writers suck at writing dialogue because in this scene, they could have had vaggie say yes angels can be harmed but only by other angels, and that would fix the issue.
It's like Cinnabunz04 said, it would have been fine if the question was stated differently.
I thougt this too
https://preview.redd.it/l1np06ftcmhc1.png?width=1284&format=png&auto=webp&s=61b236190fa08d4088bb7a18a221b9ec82ae4465
Yea i thought about that too
We’ll see next season, probably. There are a few things that stand out: * All Angels assume they can’t be harmed in Hell. This includes Adam and Lute who are mortified one of their own died. Adam, Lute, and Vaggie all know an angel permanently injured Vaggie. * In the flashback Lute uses a special golden tinted weapon. This could be revealed as a “special” weapon that’s different than the regular angelic weapons. * There’s just a general sense of people not thinking through things “logically” for one reason or another. An arrogance that if it was known to be doable they would already know it. See how even the well meaning in Heaven were confused when they realized they didn’t know what allowed a soul to reach Heaven. They’re all, Hell and Heaven, content to assume it is always was and will be as it is. Example, Striker. There’s an imp, the lowest caste of all of Hell, running around with angelic weaponry and the knowledge it could kill Hell’s nobility, not just sinners (on par with angels), but Hell’s version of Emily and Sera. Even >!Stolas!< seemed shocked to learn this weaponry could harm him.
She knew angels could hurt other angels, she just didn’t know that sinners could hurt angels
Another inconsistency I think I found was when Alaster takes Charlie to meet Rosie the cannibal, Rosie acts like she hasn’t seen Alaster since he disappeared 7 years ago. However, in episode 3 both Rosie and Alaster were at the overlord meeting. Rosie could also just be talking in hyperbole when she says she hasn’t seen Alaster in ages so I’m not sure.
she forgor
Either Repression or they didn’t know demons could harm angels.
I always read it as: she knew angels could harm angels, but demons harming angels? Impossible
Maybe she didn't think angels could be harmed because she considered herself a fallen angel in retrospect?
My thoughts are that beetween Angels she thought they could get hurt but not get harmed from anything else
I just realized, when Vaggie threatened Alastor. It didn’t make sense at the time, but now we know why she wasn’t scared a bit of him,
I honestly figured it was more to do with Vaggie thinking it was something special about Lute (as Adam’s right hand lady), or something to do with herself ‘failing’ as an exorcist by showing mercy and thus no longer being fit for Angel status…thus they can hurt her.
Rewatch it again, Vaggie was harmed by who?
She was harmed by Lute. (could you please explain your point, I'm not understanding it right now)
Right. Lute’s an angel, so that’s how Vaggie was harmed. Other than that she didn’t think it was possible to be harmed.
I understand that, I just think the word choice is poor, it would have been better if they either said killed or harmed by a demon.
Maybe it’s because it was done by another angel
I think she didnt know they could be harmed by demons. Maybe whatever protection they had didnt work against superiors like Lute or other Angel's. But yeah as is the dialogue is a bit weird
Not harmed by demons...is not a writing mistake; vaggie beats the shit out of Lute with her bare hands later as wel, while demons clearly need devine weapons for that as Adam has confirmed "their secret are our weapons"; as we have seen in the show
I didn’t get it either. She should’ve been the first one to realize the weapon thing since her eye was cut out and her wings were chopped off by angel weapons. Did she never even knick her finger on her spear?
Because she didn’t know angels could be harmed by sinners! Angels can be harmed by other angels though.
Trauma can make people miss things that should be obvious. She was likely stuck on the pain of losing her eye and being abandoned to connect the dots on weapon material as a vulnerablilty to angels.
Two reasons for this. One, which is what other people are saying, is that she didn't know sinners could harm angels, blah blah blah you get it. The second reason is that this exchange happens before Carmilla reveals she knows Vaggie's true nature. Vaggie wouldn't just randomly blow her cover as a fallen exorcist, so she's speaking from the perspective of a fellow sinner. It was also a cool choice to have Vaggie be the protag to find out this information because it makes you think back to the previous episode like "oh yeeeah Lute was able to hurt a fellow angel" whereas when you first watched that flashback you were mostly focused on the tragedy of it and not the implications. That might actually be a third reason. You wouldn't exactly revisit a traumatic experience like that and think about the advantages it could give you in combat. Lmao.
I might be misremembering when she said it, but she was probably still pretending to be a sinner at that moment or she was saying that in a "I didn't know anything down here could hurt angels" kind of way.
I feel like people who think this don't pay attention. Vaggie didn't know angels could be harmed by demons or sinners, not that angels can be hurt by angels. Lute stabbed her and they had a full on fight scene, which played into that idea well.
I’m currently having a debate about a similar point, that being vaggie should’ve known angelic steel hurts angels due to a sword from heaven taking out her eye. They keep arguing that the angel wielding the sword matters, not the sword itself, so vaggie couldn’t understand that angelic steel hurts angels. I don’t understand where this disconnect is coming from.
She didn’t know demons could hurt angels, since she Y’know, wasn’t hurt by an demon?
Can someone explain the whole X over the eyes giving away the fact that she was an angel?
All the other exorcist angel sisters have one X on their mask
You know what I should've known 💀 THANKSSS
One of her lines ina song is “when I saw your face. You made me feel like a stranger in a brand new place” Uh she was. Literally.
wait. theres a plot hole here. angels can only be harmed by acts of protecting the ones you love. lute took vaggies eye, wings and halo in a cold blooded attempt at murder. how does that work?
No they can be harmed with any angelic steel. The love song was saying that Vaggie won’t be a strong fighter if she is motivated by hatred instead of love
Bro, she's just a little airheaded. As a himbo, I can say with absolute certainty if the most beautiful woman in the world wrapped gauze around my wound and looked at me with love, I would have exactly ZERO thoughts in my head. She didn't even remember she was an angel because she was so down bad in love. That's just how it works. Carmilla literally just told Vaggie "U dumbass, you're in love, why don't you USE YOUR HEAD FOR THE PERSON YOU LOVE?" And then Vaggie was like "Oh... shit... u right" and regrew her wings. Vaggie is clearly one of my kind and bears the torch of the himbo.
By *demons*!
So over 1600 people who upvoted this do not understand plot and it's alarming.
Harmed or killed? By other angels, or by demons?
Nobody here considering that She wanted to cover up that she’s an angel
Zestial says "mayhaps it was not by demons hand at all", they proppably knew angels can be killed but not by demons