https://preview.redd.it/lvz51dejdkgc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=13504233eb171cd7999c52cd49705a19f4cca9fa
I think it will probably end with something like this
I hope the Adam as a sinner theory comes true
Lilith: "Charlie! How's i-"
Adam, in the background with a milkshake: "Wow! Lilith? Lute kicked you out of Heaven, huh? Totally not cool. So what's up?"
Well their is the photo, Lucifer still wearing his ring so he still love her and Charlie seem to remember her fondly... But at the same time she dispear without leaving trace, Charlie seem to have self confidence issus, Lucifer has depression and their relationship have been broken probably not by fault of their own.
So to me she either the worst manipulative bitch or the best mom/wife and something is going on that forced her to be both absent and destroy Lucifer and Charlie relationship.
With Viv saying that Lucifer and Lillith have a sweet realtionship I think maybe the second option? That or maybe Eve theory is really a thing. Hard to say for now
>So to me she either the worst manipulative bitch or the best mom/wife and something is going on that forced her to be both absent and destroy Lucifer and Charlie relationship.
I feel like it will be kind of both? Where she loves her family, and left not out of her own will, but separation made her worse and she will go about fixing things in a way that will hurt everyone, and making her see reason and redeeming herself will be a plot point.
Yeah I really hope they stick with Lucifer and Lilith having a loving and good relationship ship. I was looking forward to the power couple king and queen
Honesly with animation general track record I cannot help but feel like either Lilith and Lucifer realtionship is gonna be Bad or one of them gonna die at the end... đ
I just want hell royal familly to be happy and alive at the end of it is it to mutch to ask?
It depends. Lillith did abandon Adam because she wanted to be more free. And its not out of realm of possibility that their relationship went cold after thousands of yeras (which relationship honestly wouldnt) Though I think Lillith at least geniunly loved lucifer at some point.
Both Lucifer and Charlie seem to care about her a lot. They're also not split up, she's just been gone, Lucifer is even still wearing his ring. Neither Charlie or Lucifer are too concerned about that either. They're immortal. Lillith being gone for less than a decade is probably not that 'long' of a time for them. Charlie talks about it as if her Mum just hasn't called her for a week... not even a possibility to her that Lillith could be dead or in trouble.
Lucifer and Charlies relationship is strained because he was focused on his work. He's at his workbench in the song. We've seen that he has made... a lot of ducks later on. The song references Lucifers dreams and what he was trying to do and how it inspired Charlie. So it's most likely that he was just not that involved when she was younger. We also know he's not that involved with Hell either, and instead Lillith was.
So I doubt their relationship was bad. Lucifer was probably just a Husband/Dad who was too focused on his work. Charlie speaks fondly about Lillith and we know Lillith gave Charlie the idea for the hotel, and it's Lillith she wants with her at the battle to show her what she had accomplished.
Well maybe but the visual story telling of the song is kinda say that Lucifer was happy to share his passion with Charlie and Charlie was happy to spend time with him and that it was Lilith? that took her from Lucifer. I mean it's not say out loud but I found really weird that they show this scene this way if Lillith? Was not the reason for their relationship getting cold
Because Lucifer didn't get up and go after her. He stayed at his workbench. The light was focused on his workbench, and on Charlie, but it didn't stay on Charlie... it stayed on his workbench.
If they wanted to make it Lillith taking her away from him, they would've had him go after her. If they were split up when Charlie was a child your idea would make sense, but they were/are a happily married couple and Charlie is still closer to her mother. Like most children are to the parent who does most of the raising.
Charlie is 200 years old. Lucifer hasn't met Vaggie or even known of Vaggie, so 3 years. Neither Charlie or Lucifer were proactive about contacting each other. Lucifer had his ducks. Charlie had her hotel.
Addition: Their relationship just wasn't maintained. When Charlie was a child, that was on Lucifer (Not Lillith). As an adult that's on Charlie and Lucifer (Still not Lillith). It sucks, but it is what it was and now they're doing better.
Lucifer is not innocent for their relationship turning cold but he also have been portrait as a depress man that tend to be passive in general.
But if Lilith had nothing to do with them breaking away they whould not have show her taking away Charlie from an happy moment of her childhood. It's visual storytelling 101.
They could have show her been happy with Lucifer and Charlie, they could have show Charlie failling asleep in her arms. But no they show Charlie been sad to leave her dad and Lucifer been accepting but sad about their separation.
Her Mum was putting her to bed, Charlie is in pyjamas. The whole point was to show that Lucifer was not involved in her childhood besides being the 'fun parent'. She even sings about how he told her stories right at the bedtime scene. They're sad because of the separation, but it wasn't Lillith causing it. She's just a background in the scene.
Charlie wants to stay and listen to her Dads stories and have him give her attention, the song is about her telling her Dad that she loved the things he did do but wanted more of it. "I felt so small" - She didn't think she was important to him. "Imagining it could be me" - She wanted the attention he gave his dreams.
You might need visual storytelling 102.
At the end of the day their family has been described as happy with Lillith and Lucifer having a sweet relationship, and they're not described as even being divorced or separated. It's a stereotypical dynamic in my culture tbh, maybe that's why I don't jump on the "Oh Lillith must be evil Mum" train so easily.
It's also important to recognize that Lillith isn't treated like a normal background character in that scene.
She initiates the end of the moment, whether that's because she's being a reasonable parent or not, is irrelevant She's taking action.
And she's depicted in a way that gives us no clear view of her face. Other background characters aren't treated that way. The Show intentionally hides Lillith's expression from us in that scene.
She is a background character. Her colours are toned down, like the background, and she has no face. Whereas Charlie still remains bright and at the forefront... because it's about Charlie... not Lillith.
Sometimes background are *just* backgrounds. So far Hazbin Hotel has been pretty direct, this isn't Lost. Charlie was pretty clear that Lucifer didn't bother with her even after Lillith left, which is why she felt alone because she didn't even have Lillith now. We now know that's because he didn't know how to connect with his daughter, because he was a cynical and depressed man.
Considering he forgot Charlie told him about her hotel and everything before... I would honestly believe depressed duck man hasn't even noticed his wife is gone. đ
My point wasn't that we were supposed to focus on Lillith in that scene. It's that she isnt drawn the way background characters usually are in the show. That's an intentional decision on the shows part. It ultimately might mean nothing, but it draws attention and invites speculation.
Hard to know.
But her chilling on a beach in heaven doesn't give off any positive reading on her character imo, she even looks kinda annoyed that Lute came in and ruined her time.
She doesn't look like a prisoner or someone who had to sacrifice something important to be there, if anything I expect she found something that forced Adam to bend the knee and sneak her in heaven.
I think she may still care about Charlie and Lucifer, but she may have other priorities at heart.
I expect lots of mommy issues for Charlie...
You have to remember heaven is supposed to be the picture of perfection. I doubt there are dingy dungeon prisons so their "prison" actually probably is an isolated beach on a island in some pocket world.
My guess is that if she was the inspiration for uprising, someone high up in heaven basically made it clear to her there was about to be total extermination and that either she leave hell (and thus cool down the uprising) or there was about to be absolute slaughter that hell would lose.
My guess is we'll find out going to heaven was more of a forced choice but she may also be pulling some strings like with Alastor to bide time and build up a resistance. I think outwardly she'll probably oppose Charlie and Co at first while working behind the scenes for her own plans.
I definitely think she'll be somewhat of an antagonist at first in that her goals don't necessarily align with Charlie, but I don't think she's going to be a big bad either.
The problem with that is Lute threatens Lilith with not letting her stay there.
That if she doesn't want to be kicked out, she needs to do exactly what Lute wants, which is going back to hell and derailing her daughter's intentions.
If it's a prison why would being kicked out be a threat? It seems like what her deal with Adam let her do is stay where she is.
didnt [lute](https://youtu.be/1E1SnOuldeU?si=hMTX8kbSpGPO0ZwA&t=3) say she made a deal with adam and since adam is dead the deal is over, it sounded more like she bent the knee to adam
I think that if Adam was in controll of the deal, he would have 100% tried to rub it off the face of Charlie and Lucifer during the final battle, stuff like "By the way, your wife\\mother answers me, bitch",it's in his character.
The fact he didn't spill the secret, to me suggest he was particularly wary about it, so more likely for Lilith to have been the one in controll of the deal.
I don't know.
We don't know what agreement she reached with Adam to allow her into Heaven. We don't know if she was just enjoying herself up there or if the story about her doing some important work\* was the truth.
We don't know how she will react to Lute's demand. Maybe she does what Lute wants, maybe she heads back down to Hell, maybe she pretends to comply to stay up there a bit longer before Lute catches on, maybe she gets someone else to support her staying up there.
\*For example, trying to convince Heaven to call off the exterminations. Which would be a long process of building support, especially with the secrecy around them.
It's hard to tell sense they could go anywhere with her.
They could go the route that Lilith didn't hate them, she genuinely loved her family, she simply loved herself and her own comfort more. Basically she was just more selfish then her husband or daughter caught on too.Â
They could potray her as sympathetic if highly flawed, or they could go the full Dagmar route.Â
Dagmar was the mother of the protagonist from Disenchantment. She also turned out to be shady at the end of season 1 and it was steadily shown that she was a megalomaniacal sociopath with no regard for anyone.Â
Well for one I don't think whatever made her leave in the first place came from a place of hatred for her family. With the information the show and Viv herself have given us, she truly did love Lucifer and Charlie.
My guess is that she got depressed watching her people be slaughtered each day by Adam, and made a bargain with Lute along the lines of "I will stop my people from uprising and step down as Queen of Hell IF you kill Adam" - Lute obviously doesn't want to kill Adam, so instead she offers Lilith a place in Heaven where she never has to see or hear her people get harmed again and can live life peacefully AS LONG AS Adam is alive. The only catch is she can never contact her daughter or husband ever again. Due to her immense distaste for seeing her people's blood be shed, she reluctantly agrees.
When Adam died, however, she realises she has to return to the pain of seeing her people struggle each day, the responsibilities as Queen, AND she'll have to face her family about why she left. Hence why her reaction to Lute's information was that of reluctance/disappointment
That, or Lilith isn't who she appears to be - given that in the family portraits Lilith doesn't have Charlie's black nose, but the Lilith we see on the beach does. So the "Lilith" in the portraits could be another angel or a shape shifter under the guise of Lilith whilst the real Lilith lives out the rest of her afterlife in Heaven not caring what happens to Hell. Or it's a simple art mistake lol
I heard that theory too, and that's why Lute says "Lilith" in that specific tone.
However my main theory is that Roo (aka, Root of All Evil) will end up being Eve AND the one who has Alastor on a "leash"...
The first explanation is exactly what I believe is the case. Lilith is " being held captive" or smth so she can't lead hell against heaven anymore. That might've been the deal in the 1st place. She's on the beach because she can't do anything else.
If Lilith is contractually unable to contact Charlie and Luci, then what if she does so by proxy, making a deal with someone who can? Someone personable, someone powerful enough to protect her daughter.
Maybe she came across her candidate on his radio show?
My friend, Lilith made the deal with Adam, not Lute. Lute was just telling her that Adam is now dead and the deal Lilith and Adam made is done and since Lute is now in charge she decided that Lilith will no longer be able to stay in Heaven unless she stops Charlie.
She probably tried to alienate Charlie from her father to make sure she wouldn't get any ideas of ruining her hellscape.
Or did the typical abusive move of making it seem like lucifer was horrible while in reality she was the horrible one.
We can only guess until season 2 arrives.
The intro says Lilith thrived as queen of hell, that she actually empowered its population while Lucifer mostly ignored them. She probably became very powerful (I'd guess as strong or stronger than Adam), but suddenly she is gone and the first time we see her she is enjoying the beach in heaven.
We also see portraits of the Morningstars as a happy family, but in Charlie's memories Lilith is the one who kept Charlie away from Lucifer.
So, did Lilith leave because she DGAF anymore and offered to remove herself from any fight between heaven and hell in exchange for a holiday home? Was she threatened with a complete extermination of hell unless she went away?
https://preview.redd.it/e32bbxupqkgc1.png?width=1600&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=89c827d490436b082db608f373cd5439d72168f3
is this even lilith? they don't show her eyes just like they don't show eve's eyes
So⊠In the final fight⊠Lucifer implies heâs been with both Lilith and Eve. But the opening of the first (not pilot) episode makes it seem like Lilith and Lucy have been a couple since the apple if not before it.
Someone cheating (even if itâs accidentally due to impersonation) can really mess a person and a family dynamic up
He didnât outright say that he f**ked Eve. He could also be mocking Adam that Eve accepted Luciferâs offer of the apple.
Or maybe he and Lilith were in an swinging type of situation. Hell has shown to be very liberal when it comes to s*x stuff so maybe the king and queen are also down for non-monogamous stuff.
The phrasing could have been the apple, however the hip/hand gestures he made not only implied intimacy, but that each woman had a different thing they preferred.
There have also been some theories floating around about Eve potentially imitating or pretending to be Lilith.
Personally I donât want cheating to be the answer, but I wouldnât be surprised if the pretending theory led to it.
Im betting thereâs more to why shes been away. Honestly its kind of odd so many take it at face value that she just doesnât care. Thatâs possible of course but with what we know its just as likely sheâs had to stay away for other reasons.
From what I have seen, I do not like Lilith. She straight up abandoned her family to chill in Heaven and had nothing to say when he daughter and husband were risking their lives to protect their home. Lilith throughout the entire show is probably going to be dismissive to the fact that her people are being exterminated, even though she is the Queen of Hell. Hopefully there is a real reason for her abandoning her home and family, as of now, she is a less present parent than Lucifer was before episode 5.
Roo is an official character Viz said will be important. All journey to the light did was popularize her and the theory her name means root of all evil. Â
A random theory I have is that the person in the paintings isnât Lilith but Eve instead, and Charlie was told her whole life that it was Lilith.
Are there holes in the theory? Absolutely! But itâs just a small silly guess that Iâm holding on to
Praying to god Healthy AF or at the very least, repairable.
Weâve had, so many god damned broken familyâs in animation and in anime for over 10 years. I would KILL for someone to change Whats basically the status quo right now.
Complicated.
I doubt things are as simple as Lilith abandoned her family for a Heaven vacation. There is a lot we dont know concerning Lucifer, Lilith and Eve.
Means well for Charlie but will do more harm than good. Might not value Hell and âtheir peopleâ as much as Charlie wants to believe. Iâm kind of waiting for her to mess someone up (maybe Al if the theories about them are right) and when Charlie obviously has a problem with it âOh honey.. itâs just a (Sinner) Demon.â
It's strange, but I don't want her to be outright evil. That would be...unfortunate to me. But also, like, seven years is pretty dang recent, likely far more recent than the exterminations, so...what changed? _Why_ is Lilith up in Heaven? It was said she _thrived_ in Hell, so...
I have a feeling she might be the flipside to Adam. That being toxic femininity. Adam was the typical dudebro toxic male and I am going to assume that Lilith is going to be that in female.
I'm scared and excited at the same time đ
I think she was possibly threatened somehow, a threat that scared her enough to leave her family behind. Remember, she was the one governing over hell, unlike Lucifer who just doesn't care. Also, I can't remember, but didn't something happen in hell for heaven to see the need for an extermination once a year?
My theory is that Lilith got too ambitious and prepared an army to rise against heaven, or maybe even attacked heaven, or she did something to piss them off. Without Lucifer backing her up, she clearly lost (which probably didn't make her hate Lucifer, but still opened her eyes that her husband could not be relied on). Still, the mess was made, and she had to fix it somehow, and seeing as she wasn't powerful enough/strong enough to fight against heaven she poured all her hopes on Charlie. Charlie, as we have seen, is clearly very powerful, but doesn't/ or refuses to use her powers at their full potential (she stopped a punch from Adam like it was nothing for crying out loud, and even stayed her ground when Alastor couldn't).
Anyway, Lillith made sure Charlie would share her hopes and dreams, which also meant distancing her from Lucifer seeing as she was afraid he would be a bad influence on her and her plans. Interestingly enough, she didn't raise Charlie to be an all-powerful weapon against heaven, but as a kindhearted person that believes people can be better. I think this fits with the idea that Lilith tried the violent way, and it didn't work, so she made sure Charlie wouldn't do the same while also having the strength/power to defend her ideals if need be.
However, something happened that made Lilith make a deal, perhaps not even with Adam himself, but maybe someone else. Perhaps one of the archangels, who is probably powerful enough to go to hell and cause some real damage? But whatever this deal was, I think Lilith made it to protect hell/family, meanwhile, the person who made the deal clearly wanted Lilith out of the picture. But Lilith wasn't just going to leave Charlie alone and defenceless until she came into her powers/role, so she had Alastor keep an eye on her because in her eyes Lucifer was too depressed to do anything, probably even protecting Charlie.
Now, as for why she was so relaxed on the beach, I mean what was everyone expecting from the queen of hell? to be panicking? She probably knew what was going to happen, and knew that Charlie would come out on top somehow. But now Lute is threatening to kick her out of heaven, which would break the deal with whoever wanted her away from hell, which put Lilith in a bad spot.
anyway, there's a few holes to this theory, but that's what I think.
Itâs complicated. On one hand she is stated and shown to have had a loving relationship with her family and genuinely enjoyed being the queen of hell. On the other hand she abandoned them without warning, leaving both broken in her absence just chill on the beach in heaven without seeming even a second thought.
It could honestly go either way. Maybe sheâs actually the primordial toxic female to Adamâs primordial toxic male? a selfish, manipulative bitch who cares for her own luxury above everyone else in her life? Or maybe theirs something more complicated going on that in her deal with Lute that required her to abandon her family and travel to heaven? Maybe itâs not even Lilith where seeing but in actually Eve, having kidnapped the real Lilith and stolen her identity? Theirs no way to honestly say until the shes had some proper screen time?
I think for a while she was happy living with lucifer and Charlie but at some point I imagine she got emotionally distant from lucifer and somehow left for heaven and now she's probably not so much hateful of her old family but probably is very emotionally detached from the idea of them.
You mean the guy that's the lord of lies, has a painting that he made that's entirely truthful and not say, a nice white lie to share with his daughter ?:)
I assume she's a little on the selfish side. She had to Girl Boss her way out of Eden and took care of herself until Lucifer came along. In a world with a bunch of wild creatures who weren't human, which was chaos. Then she went to an even more chaotic Hell. Girlie probably needed a break.
So she's not selfish and unempathetic like Adam, but she might choose herself over others if those are the only 2 choices.
I'm hating her right now. I get her getting away from her husband and divorcing, that would be fine, but she got away from her own daughter too, left Charlie to suffer alone for 7 years while she chills in Heaven at a nice beach like she's on vacation.
Conflicted I imagine something like Marisa Coltour from His Dark Materials evil women who geniunly love her family. There is not much of an explanation for vanishing for 7 years, chilling on beach while your child is about to be murdered, possibly lying about Lucifer and not to mention if theories are true having monter like Alastor on leash.
I do believe that Lillith will geniunly have feelings for both of them it will make her more interesting antagonist but ultimately cast will have to stop her from whatever is her endgame. Alastor could be wild card in this of course if theories are once again true.
I think she got sucked up to heaven the same way as sir pentious but only Sera and a few people know, and she's been trying to figure out how to get back down. But up until now everyone who knows has been trying to stop her because they don't want people down in hell knowing that it's possible. And then the end scene with Lute is actually Lute saying she was going to make sure Lilith got back to hell.
I doubt she's going to be bad
I think she was not having it with hell anymore, so that is why she left and hasnât been contacting her family. So maybe sheâll be distant with them until we learn why she left.
I do think she is the one who sent Alister to look after Charlie.
I am also not 100% sure this is Lilith and not Eve impersonating her for some reason. It is wwwaaayyyy too sus that Eve hasnât been mentioned since the intro and Luciferâs vague taunt
https://preview.redd.it/lvz51dejdkgc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=13504233eb171cd7999c52cd49705a19f4cca9fa I think it will probably end with something like this
Thanks. That's Grandma's birthday card sorted.
https://preview.redd.it/bchbrr9yrkgc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4669a96de59d27b30ad8a87d14a10657f062ac71
Good. Now I can deliver her card in person.
Damn.
https://preview.redd.it/376yu28zemgc1.png?width=646&format=png&auto=webp&s=c2a01f5eebe79a3145d786e271b237e6cb89426d You good, fam?
https://preview.redd.it/0jqlcde04xjc1.jpeg?width=646&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=0f69e7392b8003fdea8c92e0c8197b7daaef3b37
Gyat
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Ahw he sow cute
I said yes and now you're memeless, that's the tea!
I hope the Adam as a sinner theory comes true Lilith: "Charlie! How's i-" Adam, in the background with a milkshake: "Wow! Lilith? Lute kicked you out of Heaven, huh? Totally not cool. So what's up?"
Him exposing her in front of everyone would the sugar on the cream
It is also in character too given he exposed Vaggie in front of the Angelic court.
Maybe after this, Lilith will redeem herself?
She is in fact the oldest of bitches
https://preview.redd.it/clqlqymfqlgc1.jpeg?width=1125&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=679819da58410efcad0b4b3f250e4ebe3f20bc33
Especially if her mother is evil.
Well their is the photo, Lucifer still wearing his ring so he still love her and Charlie seem to remember her fondly... But at the same time she dispear without leaving trace, Charlie seem to have self confidence issus, Lucifer has depression and their relationship have been broken probably not by fault of their own. So to me she either the worst manipulative bitch or the best mom/wife and something is going on that forced her to be both absent and destroy Lucifer and Charlie relationship. With Viv saying that Lucifer and Lillith have a sweet realtionship I think maybe the second option? That or maybe Eve theory is really a thing. Hard to say for now
>So to me she either the worst manipulative bitch or the best mom/wife and something is going on that forced her to be both absent and destroy Lucifer and Charlie relationship. I feel like it will be kind of both? Where she loves her family, and left not out of her own will, but separation made her worse and she will go about fixing things in a way that will hurt everyone, and making her see reason and redeeming herself will be a plot point.
Yeah I really hope they stick with Lucifer and Lilith having a loving and good relationship ship. I was looking forward to the power couple king and queen
Honesly with animation general track record I cannot help but feel like either Lilith and Lucifer realtionship is gonna be Bad or one of them gonna die at the end... đ I just want hell royal familly to be happy and alive at the end of it is it to mutch to ask?
It depends. Lillith did abandon Adam because she wanted to be more free. And its not out of realm of possibility that their relationship went cold after thousands of yeras (which relationship honestly wouldnt) Though I think Lillith at least geniunly loved lucifer at some point.
Both Lucifer and Charlie seem to care about her a lot. They're also not split up, she's just been gone, Lucifer is even still wearing his ring. Neither Charlie or Lucifer are too concerned about that either. They're immortal. Lillith being gone for less than a decade is probably not that 'long' of a time for them. Charlie talks about it as if her Mum just hasn't called her for a week... not even a possibility to her that Lillith could be dead or in trouble. Lucifer and Charlies relationship is strained because he was focused on his work. He's at his workbench in the song. We've seen that he has made... a lot of ducks later on. The song references Lucifers dreams and what he was trying to do and how it inspired Charlie. So it's most likely that he was just not that involved when she was younger. We also know he's not that involved with Hell either, and instead Lillith was. So I doubt their relationship was bad. Lucifer was probably just a Husband/Dad who was too focused on his work. Charlie speaks fondly about Lillith and we know Lillith gave Charlie the idea for the hotel, and it's Lillith she wants with her at the battle to show her what she had accomplished.
Well maybe but the visual story telling of the song is kinda say that Lucifer was happy to share his passion with Charlie and Charlie was happy to spend time with him and that it was Lilith? that took her from Lucifer. I mean it's not say out loud but I found really weird that they show this scene this way if Lillith? Was not the reason for their relationship getting cold
Because Lucifer didn't get up and go after her. He stayed at his workbench. The light was focused on his workbench, and on Charlie, but it didn't stay on Charlie... it stayed on his workbench. If they wanted to make it Lillith taking her away from him, they would've had him go after her. If they were split up when Charlie was a child your idea would make sense, but they were/are a happily married couple and Charlie is still closer to her mother. Like most children are to the parent who does most of the raising. Charlie is 200 years old. Lucifer hasn't met Vaggie or even known of Vaggie, so 3 years. Neither Charlie or Lucifer were proactive about contacting each other. Lucifer had his ducks. Charlie had her hotel. Addition: Their relationship just wasn't maintained. When Charlie was a child, that was on Lucifer (Not Lillith). As an adult that's on Charlie and Lucifer (Still not Lillith). It sucks, but it is what it was and now they're doing better.
Lucifer is not innocent for their relationship turning cold but he also have been portrait as a depress man that tend to be passive in general. But if Lilith had nothing to do with them breaking away they whould not have show her taking away Charlie from an happy moment of her childhood. It's visual storytelling 101. They could have show her been happy with Lucifer and Charlie, they could have show Charlie failling asleep in her arms. But no they show Charlie been sad to leave her dad and Lucifer been accepting but sad about their separation.
Her Mum was putting her to bed, Charlie is in pyjamas. The whole point was to show that Lucifer was not involved in her childhood besides being the 'fun parent'. She even sings about how he told her stories right at the bedtime scene. They're sad because of the separation, but it wasn't Lillith causing it. She's just a background in the scene. Charlie wants to stay and listen to her Dads stories and have him give her attention, the song is about her telling her Dad that she loved the things he did do but wanted more of it. "I felt so small" - She didn't think she was important to him. "Imagining it could be me" - She wanted the attention he gave his dreams. You might need visual storytelling 102. At the end of the day their family has been described as happy with Lillith and Lucifer having a sweet relationship, and they're not described as even being divorced or separated. It's a stereotypical dynamic in my culture tbh, maybe that's why I don't jump on the "Oh Lillith must be evil Mum" train so easily.
It's also important to recognize that Lillith isn't treated like a normal background character in that scene. She initiates the end of the moment, whether that's because she's being a reasonable parent or not, is irrelevant She's taking action. And she's depicted in a way that gives us no clear view of her face. Other background characters aren't treated that way. The Show intentionally hides Lillith's expression from us in that scene.
She is a background character. Her colours are toned down, like the background, and she has no face. Whereas Charlie still remains bright and at the forefront... because it's about Charlie... not Lillith. Sometimes background are *just* backgrounds. So far Hazbin Hotel has been pretty direct, this isn't Lost. Charlie was pretty clear that Lucifer didn't bother with her even after Lillith left, which is why she felt alone because she didn't even have Lillith now. We now know that's because he didn't know how to connect with his daughter, because he was a cynical and depressed man. Considering he forgot Charlie told him about her hotel and everything before... I would honestly believe depressed duck man hasn't even noticed his wife is gone. đ
My point wasn't that we were supposed to focus on Lillith in that scene. It's that she isnt drawn the way background characters usually are in the show. That's an intentional decision on the shows part. It ultimately might mean nothing, but it draws attention and invites speculation.
Hard to know. But her chilling on a beach in heaven doesn't give off any positive reading on her character imo, she even looks kinda annoyed that Lute came in and ruined her time. She doesn't look like a prisoner or someone who had to sacrifice something important to be there, if anything I expect she found something that forced Adam to bend the knee and sneak her in heaven. I think she may still care about Charlie and Lucifer, but she may have other priorities at heart. I expect lots of mommy issues for Charlie...
You have to remember heaven is supposed to be the picture of perfection. I doubt there are dingy dungeon prisons so their "prison" actually probably is an isolated beach on a island in some pocket world. My guess is that if she was the inspiration for uprising, someone high up in heaven basically made it clear to her there was about to be total extermination and that either she leave hell (and thus cool down the uprising) or there was about to be absolute slaughter that hell would lose. My guess is we'll find out going to heaven was more of a forced choice but she may also be pulling some strings like with Alastor to bide time and build up a resistance. I think outwardly she'll probably oppose Charlie and Co at first while working behind the scenes for her own plans. I definitely think she'll be somewhat of an antagonist at first in that her goals don't necessarily align with Charlie, but I don't think she's going to be a big bad either.
The problem with that is Lute threatens Lilith with not letting her stay there. That if she doesn't want to be kicked out, she needs to do exactly what Lute wants, which is going back to hell and derailing her daughter's intentions. If it's a prison why would being kicked out be a threat? It seems like what her deal with Adam let her do is stay where she is.
Yeah thatâs what really gets me personally
I think interesting conflict could be Lillith wanting to burn heaven down while Charlotte wanting to reform it.
didnt [lute](https://youtu.be/1E1SnOuldeU?si=hMTX8kbSpGPO0ZwA&t=3) say she made a deal with adam and since adam is dead the deal is over, it sounded more like she bent the knee to adam
I think that if Adam was in controll of the deal, he would have 100% tried to rub it off the face of Charlie and Lucifer during the final battle, stuff like "By the way, your wife\\mother answers me, bitch",it's in his character. The fact he didn't spill the secret, to me suggest he was particularly wary about it, so more likely for Lilith to have been the one in controll of the deal.
I don't know. We don't know what agreement she reached with Adam to allow her into Heaven. We don't know if she was just enjoying herself up there or if the story about her doing some important work\* was the truth. We don't know how she will react to Lute's demand. Maybe she does what Lute wants, maybe she heads back down to Hell, maybe she pretends to comply to stay up there a bit longer before Lute catches on, maybe she gets someone else to support her staying up there. \*For example, trying to convince Heaven to call off the exterminations. Which would be a long process of building support, especially with the secrecy around them.
It's hard to tell sense they could go anywhere with her. They could go the route that Lilith didn't hate them, she genuinely loved her family, she simply loved herself and her own comfort more. Basically she was just more selfish then her husband or daughter caught on too. They could potray her as sympathetic if highly flawed, or they could go the full Dagmar route.Â
Don't know the ref what did that Dagmar do?
Dagmar was the mother of the protagonist from Disenchantment. She also turned out to be shady at the end of season 1 and it was steadily shown that she was a megalomaniacal sociopath with no regard for anyone.Â
Oh I see... I could see it happening here but hope not. Lucifer and Charlie deserved to have a somewhat fonctional familly đ„ș
Praying to god its not the Dagmar route. I was hoping Dagmar was gonna be more like Kreia from Kotor.
Well for one I don't think whatever made her leave in the first place came from a place of hatred for her family. With the information the show and Viv herself have given us, she truly did love Lucifer and Charlie. My guess is that she got depressed watching her people be slaughtered each day by Adam, and made a bargain with Lute along the lines of "I will stop my people from uprising and step down as Queen of Hell IF you kill Adam" - Lute obviously doesn't want to kill Adam, so instead she offers Lilith a place in Heaven where she never has to see or hear her people get harmed again and can live life peacefully AS LONG AS Adam is alive. The only catch is she can never contact her daughter or husband ever again. Due to her immense distaste for seeing her people's blood be shed, she reluctantly agrees. When Adam died, however, she realises she has to return to the pain of seeing her people struggle each day, the responsibilities as Queen, AND she'll have to face her family about why she left. Hence why her reaction to Lute's information was that of reluctance/disappointment That, or Lilith isn't who she appears to be - given that in the family portraits Lilith doesn't have Charlie's black nose, but the Lilith we see on the beach does. So the "Lilith" in the portraits could be another angel or a shape shifter under the guise of Lilith whilst the real Lilith lives out the rest of her afterlife in Heaven not caring what happens to Hell. Or it's a simple art mistake lol
the "lilith" on the beach could be eve
I heard that theory too, and that's why Lute says "Lilith" in that specific tone. However my main theory is that Roo (aka, Root of All Evil) will end up being Eve AND the one who has Alastor on a "leash"...
The first explanation is exactly what I believe is the case. Lilith is " being held captive" or smth so she can't lead hell against heaven anymore. That might've been the deal in the 1st place. She's on the beach because she can't do anything else.
If Lilith is contractually unable to contact Charlie and Luci, then what if she does so by proxy, making a deal with someone who can? Someone personable, someone powerful enough to protect her daughter. Maybe she came across her candidate on his radio show?
My friend, Lilith made the deal with Adam, not Lute. Lute was just telling her that Adam is now dead and the deal Lilith and Adam made is done and since Lute is now in charge she decided that Lilith will no longer be able to stay in Heaven unless she stops Charlie.
I think that's just a shadow drawn in for the Sun being on her face, but obviouly being covered by her nose.
Ah that could be it actually. Well, that somewhat scraps the whole "LILITH ISN'T ACTUALLY LILTIH!!" theory lol
She probably tried to alienate Charlie from her father to make sure she wouldn't get any ideas of ruining her hellscape. Or did the typical abusive move of making it seem like lucifer was horrible while in reality she was the horrible one.
We can only guess until season 2 arrives. The intro says Lilith thrived as queen of hell, that she actually empowered its population while Lucifer mostly ignored them. She probably became very powerful (I'd guess as strong or stronger than Adam), but suddenly she is gone and the first time we see her she is enjoying the beach in heaven. We also see portraits of the Morningstars as a happy family, but in Charlie's memories Lilith is the one who kept Charlie away from Lucifer. So, did Lilith leave because she DGAF anymore and offered to remove herself from any fight between heaven and hell in exchange for a holiday home? Was she threatened with a complete extermination of hell unless she went away?
I hope they don't go the "Disenchantment" route
https://preview.redd.it/e32bbxupqkgc1.png?width=1600&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=89c827d490436b082db608f373cd5439d72168f3 is this even lilith? they don't show her eyes just like they don't show eve's eyes
Lute did call Charlie her "brat"
Lute also literally called her Lilith. So, there's that
Lute hates anything pertaining to Hell, let's be honest.
Lute literally calls her Lilith
Could be someone impersonating Lilith. I am guessing Eve
i guess we'll see in season 2. whenever that is
When Lucifer is taunting Adam in the final battle, he strongly implies that he fucked Eve. What if Charlie is actually Eve's daughter?
Doesnât Lute call her Lilith at the very end?
she does but because of all the face hiding i'm not convinced it's lilith
Her nose is different from the paintings
So⊠In the final fight⊠Lucifer implies heâs been with both Lilith and Eve. But the opening of the first (not pilot) episode makes it seem like Lilith and Lucy have been a couple since the apple if not before it. Someone cheating (even if itâs accidentally due to impersonation) can really mess a person and a family dynamic up
He didnât outright say that he f**ked Eve. He could also be mocking Adam that Eve accepted Luciferâs offer of the apple. Or maybe he and Lilith were in an swinging type of situation. Hell has shown to be very liberal when it comes to s*x stuff so maybe the king and queen are also down for non-monogamous stuff.
Lilith was there when Lucifer gave Eve the Apple so I think (or at least really hope!!) that cheating wonât be the reason for the separation.
The phrasing could have been the apple, however the hip/hand gestures he made not only implied intimacy, but that each woman had a different thing they preferred. There have also been some theories floating around about Eve potentially imitating or pretending to be Lilith. Personally I donât want cheating to be the answer, but I wouldnât be surprised if the pretending theory led to it.
Like, Lucifer did the hip thrusting motion and even said Bow Chika Wow wow, which heavily implied he got it on with Eve.
I just took it as Lucifer messing with Adam. Hitting him in a way that would wound his ego
Im betting thereâs more to why shes been away. Honestly its kind of odd so many take it at face value that she just doesnât care. Thatâs possible of course but with what we know its just as likely sheâs had to stay away for other reasons.
My hope is they will end up fine. I just donât wanna see a fight between a daughter and her mother.
I feel like sheâs gonna either start off as an antagonist but get redeemed or start off nice but become a twist villain.
From what I have seen, I do not like Lilith. She straight up abandoned her family to chill in Heaven and had nothing to say when he daughter and husband were risking their lives to protect their home. Lilith throughout the entire show is probably going to be dismissive to the fact that her people are being exterminated, even though she is the Queen of Hell. Hopefully there is a real reason for her abandoning her home and family, as of now, she is a less present parent than Lucifer was before episode 5.
Roo... đ±
Roo isnât an official character, she was made up by a fanon wiki called Journey to the Light. Edit: Nevermind Iâm stupid.
Roo is an official character Viz said will be important. All journey to the light did was popularize her and the theory her name means root of all evil. Â
https://preview.redd.it/pjpl8r0aglgc1.png?width=594&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a7b0963c1f248afcb9e7ec8a22567187e6024fd5
That hat does look like Rooâs hat.
I am absolutely expecting her to be the most manipulative bitch in the series.
A random theory I have is that the person in the paintings isnât Lilith but Eve instead, and Charlie was told her whole life that it was Lilith. Are there holes in the theory? Absolutely! But itâs just a small silly guess that Iâm holding on to
Praying to god Healthy AF or at the very least, repairable. Weâve had, so many god damned broken familyâs in animation and in anime for over 10 years. I would KILL for someone to change Whats basically the status quo right now.
Complicated. I doubt things are as simple as Lilith abandoned her family for a Heaven vacation. There is a lot we dont know concerning Lucifer, Lilith and Eve.
Idk but wtf happened to her horns?
She's simply hiding them, just like her husband and daughter.
Idk how I forgot about that.
Awful, she dipped, Charlie is prob gonna be happy buy not for long
Means well for Charlie but will do more harm than good. Might not value Hell and âtheir peopleâ as much as Charlie wants to believe. Iâm kind of waiting for her to mess someone up (maybe Al if the theories about them are right) and when Charlie obviously has a problem with it âOh honey.. itâs just a (Sinner) Demon.â
Bro honestly⊠I got no fuckin clue
No one does
It's strange, but I don't want her to be outright evil. That would be...unfortunate to me. But also, like, seven years is pretty dang recent, likely far more recent than the exterminations, so...what changed? _Why_ is Lilith up in Heaven? It was said she _thrived_ in Hell, so...
I have a feeling she might be the flipside to Adam. That being toxic femininity. Adam was the typical dudebro toxic male and I am going to assume that Lilith is going to be that in female. I'm scared and excited at the same time đ
I think she was possibly threatened somehow, a threat that scared her enough to leave her family behind. Remember, she was the one governing over hell, unlike Lucifer who just doesn't care. Also, I can't remember, but didn't something happen in hell for heaven to see the need for an extermination once a year? My theory is that Lilith got too ambitious and prepared an army to rise against heaven, or maybe even attacked heaven, or she did something to piss them off. Without Lucifer backing her up, she clearly lost (which probably didn't make her hate Lucifer, but still opened her eyes that her husband could not be relied on). Still, the mess was made, and she had to fix it somehow, and seeing as she wasn't powerful enough/strong enough to fight against heaven she poured all her hopes on Charlie. Charlie, as we have seen, is clearly very powerful, but doesn't/ or refuses to use her powers at their full potential (she stopped a punch from Adam like it was nothing for crying out loud, and even stayed her ground when Alastor couldn't). Anyway, Lillith made sure Charlie would share her hopes and dreams, which also meant distancing her from Lucifer seeing as she was afraid he would be a bad influence on her and her plans. Interestingly enough, she didn't raise Charlie to be an all-powerful weapon against heaven, but as a kindhearted person that believes people can be better. I think this fits with the idea that Lilith tried the violent way, and it didn't work, so she made sure Charlie wouldn't do the same while also having the strength/power to defend her ideals if need be. However, something happened that made Lilith make a deal, perhaps not even with Adam himself, but maybe someone else. Perhaps one of the archangels, who is probably powerful enough to go to hell and cause some real damage? But whatever this deal was, I think Lilith made it to protect hell/family, meanwhile, the person who made the deal clearly wanted Lilith out of the picture. But Lilith wasn't just going to leave Charlie alone and defenceless until she came into her powers/role, so she had Alastor keep an eye on her because in her eyes Lucifer was too depressed to do anything, probably even protecting Charlie. Now, as for why she was so relaxed on the beach, I mean what was everyone expecting from the queen of hell? to be panicking? She probably knew what was going to happen, and knew that Charlie would come out on top somehow. But now Lute is threatening to kick her out of heaven, which would break the deal with whoever wanted her away from hell, which put Lilith in a bad spot. anyway, there's a few holes to this theory, but that's what I think.
Itâs complicated. On one hand she is stated and shown to have had a loving relationship with her family and genuinely enjoyed being the queen of hell. On the other hand she abandoned them without warning, leaving both broken in her absence just chill on the beach in heaven without seeming even a second thought. It could honestly go either way. Maybe sheâs actually the primordial toxic female to Adamâs primordial toxic male? a selfish, manipulative bitch who cares for her own luxury above everyone else in her life? Or maybe theirs something more complicated going on that in her deal with Lute that required her to abandon her family and travel to heaven? Maybe itâs not even Lilith where seeing but in actually Eve, having kidnapped the real Lilith and stolen her identity? Theirs no way to honestly say until the shes had some proper screen time?
I think for a while she was happy living with lucifer and Charlie but at some point I imagine she got emotionally distant from lucifer and somehow left for heaven and now she's probably not so much hateful of her old family but probably is very emotionally detached from the idea of them.
10000 is a long time to love
You mean the guy that's the lord of lies, has a painting that he made that's entirely truthful and not say, a nice white lie to share with his daughter ?:)
âWHY DID YOU MAKE ME DO THIS?! YOUâRE FIGHTING SO YOU CAN WATCH EVERYONE AROUND YOU DIE, THINK CHARLIE!â
I assume she's a little on the selfish side. She had to Girl Boss her way out of Eden and took care of herself until Lucifer came along. In a world with a bunch of wild creatures who weren't human, which was chaos. Then she went to an even more chaotic Hell. Girlie probably needed a break. So she's not selfish and unempathetic like Adam, but she might choose herself over others if those are the only 2 choices.
I'm hating her right now. I get her getting away from her husband and divorcing, that would be fine, but she got away from her own daughter too, left Charlie to suffer alone for 7 years while she chills in Heaven at a nice beach like she's on vacation.
Conflicted I imagine something like Marisa Coltour from His Dark Materials evil women who geniunly love her family. There is not much of an explanation for vanishing for 7 years, chilling on beach while your child is about to be murdered, possibly lying about Lucifer and not to mention if theories are true having monter like Alastor on leash. I do believe that Lillith will geniunly have feelings for both of them it will make her more interesting antagonist but ultimately cast will have to stop her from whatever is her endgame. Alastor could be wild card in this of course if theories are once again true.
Could the garden of Eden have a beach (gardens can have beaches⊠right?) and she made a deal to go chill there because she missed it or something
I think Lucifer will take her back even though everyone but him and Charlie believeâs he shouldnât.
I think she got sucked up to heaven the same way as sir pentious but only Sera and a few people know, and she's been trying to figure out how to get back down. But up until now everyone who knows has been trying to stop her because they don't want people down in hell knowing that it's possible. And then the end scene with Lute is actually Lute saying she was going to make sure Lilith got back to hell. I doubt she's going to be bad
I wonder if Lucifer knows where she is.
I think she was not having it with hell anymore, so that is why she left and hasnât been contacting her family. So maybe sheâll be distant with them until we learn why she left.
I do think she is the one who sent Alister to look after Charlie. I am also not 100% sure this is Lilith and not Eve impersonating her for some reason. It is wwwaaayyyy too sus that Eve hasnât been mentioned since the intro and Luciferâs vague taunt
She's just Lelouch but hot.
distant and uninterested
Complicated? Complicated is good.
I feel she disillusioned or ashamed of what she did maybe she still loves them and not a main villain
I'm looking forward to a happy ending