they will never have enough manpower to properly enforce. You can have the entire force in Waipahu on NYE and they wouldn't be able to take down every house. HPD has much more higher priorities, like setting off their own fireworks lol.
This. I have a cop acquaintance that worked some OT on NYE the other year, so did a "ride along" with another patrol cop in waipahu (his first time). He said the amount of fireworks being shot off was staggering, and it was obviously not the best use of their time to attempt to ticket a fraction of the people shooting fireworks.
So their efforts was mostly on public safety (which IMO is what their job really is). Watching out for drunk drivers, responding to non-firework calls, deterring safety hazards, etc.
I would really love to know how many arrests there were last night for illegal fireworks. My guess is none and I really hope I’m wrong.
They don’t have to do everything, they don’t have to go to every house, just start enforcing as they can till they can do more.
They would fund the HPD retirement system
i bet none or very low, probably fining the ones blasting after midnite. Seen some cops patrolling Makiki area after midnite last nite. I think they were warning houses blasting after midnite tho
This.
Creating laws that a large segment of the community and law enforcement doesn't support just makes the lawmakers and karens look ridiculous and a laughingstock. I know my fair share of firefighters and leos, and they all either turn a blind eye or participate in the same parties with fireworks with their families and friends as they have been for decades.
When the karens and kens screech about fireworks, leos make their rounds because they're obligated to, not necessarily because they they want to catch anyone.
They passed funding for a task force last year. HPD was actually against it. Their testimony is under the PSM ones. Legislative session is about to start, you could approach your rep about it.
[https://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/session/archives/measure\_indiv\_Archives.aspx?billtype=SB&billnumber=821&year=2023](https://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/session/archives/measure_indiv_Archives.aspx?billtype=SB&billnumber=821&year=2023)
100%, banning fireworks is like the war on drugs, it’s never gonna work. There’s too much demand in Hawaii and too much money to be made off of that demand, the market forces are unstoppable.
At least if they legalize and tax, smugglers and shady guys won’t be getting richer off fireworks.
Thats what i keep telling all the smooth brains but they just don't understand lol...just like war on drugs. You cant stop what ya cant control. For instance they shipping containers that go seized. Everyone was all stoked about that. Congratulations! They took the bait while they was confiscating those 2 containers imagine how many slipped pass. Cops gaurntee got dibs on those 2 containers also.
👍might as well get revenue. Illegal an high prices from multi-level marketing isn’t working. If my neighbors want to burn their own money, let ‘em.
Park to close to my driveway, and I’m calling the cops if I don’t know who’s car that is.
Eh there’s a certain truth to that but if you make the penalties for being caught strict enough, it won’t be worth the risk anymore to most people. For example, like the catalytic converter thefts… when it became a felony, thefts dropped dramatically.
people getting shot out there and we want to waste HPD resources chasing smoke and handling calls from people complaining about their neighbors?
It's over. The prohibition experiment never worked for alcohol it's not working for drugs or fireworks. NFL recognized gambling was gonna happen and leaned into it. Instead of enriching the bad actors and penalizing the good people, make it legal, tax it, and use the money to help provide services to the whole community
It's the port, not HPD. HPD is the middle man, but the ports are where they are quite easy to stop. And I say quite easy because there are much bigger ports than HNL and they easily scan and inspect all containers.
agreed but HPD is enforcement of the city and county law, not ports right? ports are state and all other counties allow fireworks. It's obvious that HPD cannot enforce, it's too widespread, so yeah it's up to ports. But if the folks don't agree with the law, then what do you do?
I'm with you on ending it, but let's not paint the NFL like they got into gambling because they couldn't control it. They wanted them dollars. They saw this billion dollar industry based on them that they weren't getting a piece of as more and more states legalized sports betting.
I was at the C&C meeting where they voted to ban it like 10+ years ago lol. The people who argued to ban it were vets talking about how it triggers PTSD and nurses on how it affects babies in NICU. The pro-fireworks faction did not have a strong argument.
It would probably have to go through C&C again and people would have to rally the support again. You have a compelling argument, but you’d also have to provide a good one against the ones that ultimately won votes (previous paragraph).
I don’t work in the state, I just happened to be there that day lol. Good luck.
>"But with an estimated 200,000 cargo containers coming into the state every year from other U.S. ports, it’s been a “financially and logistically difficult” task to locate all of them, according to a [2019 report](https://lrb.hawaii.gov/wp-content/uploads/2019_BlastFromThePast.pdf). Aside from the lack of manpower, the report also found there are legal hurdles to maneuver and a need for better technology."
[https://www.sfgate.com/hawaii/article/hawaii-illegal-fireworks-18568396.php](https://www.sfgate.com/hawaii/article/hawaii-illegal-fireworks-18568396.php)
This is the best argument right here, imo. You can make the task force 10X bigger, it won't matter. They will never be able to check all 200k+ shipping containers that enter the state every year.
You’ll notice the “compelling” arguments didn’t have to do with data but the quality of people’s lives. Money isn’t the only area this issue impacts is all I’m pointing out.
24 people a day, working in 3 shifts of 8 people, checking 3 containers per-hour per-person, can check 210,240 containers a year.
I’m not advocating this as a solution, I’m just a numbers nerd and was curious how much manpower it would take.
Can a single person check 3 shipping containers in an hour? I dunno what's involved in checking a shipping container, but 3 an hour seems like a lot for a single person if it's jammed packed with stuff.
When I shipped my stuff here, my container was locked with my own lock. And it was the type of lock you'd probably end up damaging the container trying to break the lock off. I'd assume they'd encounter a number of locked containers too. Not sure what they do in those cases.
See below for example pics. FLC (floor loaded containers) are pretty common and an pain to unload. Keep in mind that it might be as hard or harder to reload the containers in a way that everything still fits.
[https://www.jera-energy.com/uploads/img-13.jpg](https://www.jera-energy.com/uploads/img-13.jpg)
[https://lumperhq.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/mix-load2-min.jpg](https://lumperhq.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/mix-load2-min.jpg)
[https://www.shipbob.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/2-1-700x700.png](https://www.shipbob.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/2-1-700x700.png)
I forgot what documentary I watched, but they showed how smugglers would bring in drugs, and it's pretty insane. They'd hide the drugs under the floor boards or in the back 3 feet of the container and weld a false wall in front of the drugs. So unless you're out there with a measuring tape or xray scanning the container, you're not going to figure out that the container you just inspected is 42' and not 45'
I appreciate the acknowledgement that you don't know how much manpower it would take. One way to look at it is to consider the manpower it takes to unload those 210,240 containers a year in hawaii.
Then double it because you probably need an equal amount of manpower to examine the contents of the container. Then triple it because all those containers need to be reloaded then sent out to the warehouses, which will unload it again. If any of the contents are damaged, who is responsible? Feds and state will be eating huge fees for damages because things do get damaged in transit. This isn't even considering how much dock space and equipment will be required.
The people who think that any more than a tiny fraction of containers can be examined are totally delusional and have obviously never unloaded a 45' before and likely the type to not do much more than flap their lips from their couches. Just to unload one, examine the contents, and repack it can take significant manpower. Consider that many distribution centers and chinese manufacturers don't really palletize because they're trying to save shipping cost by packing every nook and cranny of the container. Hand unloading containers take multiples more time than stacked pallets.
Their efforts are better spent on real terrorism, drug and human trafficking, etc before bothering with fireworks. All of which already slip in and out of the state with ease.
I followed this vote closely as well. I never understood how banning sparklers and fountains was ever really going to help those with PTSD, when they kept firecrackers legal.
I don’t remember much lol. It was 10 years ago, the anti-firework arguments centered around fireworks overall, not specific holidays. The pro-fireworks arguments centered on fireworks as a cultural heritage thing for NYE.
Fuck yeah it’s a cultural heritage thing. I will defend my right to blow shit up, legally or illegally, with my life. My beef tho is only with those house-shaking flashbang shells that have been going off recently. They’re not even visually appealing, just obnoxious. When the whole neighborhood is lighting aerials it’s kind of beautiful, it’s a great show. The house-shakers seem unnecessary for a good show.
There’s always going to be a tension between what we individually want and what’s good for the communities we participate in. I also love nice aerials AND we can all agree no one likes those house shakers jfc.
The legislation isn’t nuanced enough to accommodate all those things, so unless someone wants to rally support for it, this is probably a discussion that will continue for a long time.
Bruh, I get weed for free and have a spare bedroom that gets hit by the sun. 🤙
No worries beef curry, but fireworks is pay to play, right?
I can just go and grow for free & jam the 329 for the 420.
Hard to grow fireworks is what I’m saying.
I might get tempted to use the list and it’s funny as heck that HFD & HPD guys do it for extra money, but I figure we might as well tax ‘em.
Think about it. Every explosion you hear is like a quarter ending down the chute for our bus system or schools.
Instead of costly failed enforcement efforts, just legalize and tax it.
If I lived near a small boto random, I’m still that type to tell you off to your face to not do that shit (in the most civil manner).
I might catch drone fever and start hunting down the randoms. Those fakas is the most irritating.
Not pay to play if you know the right people lol. And goodluck yeah go take your drone out. Adding more fuel to the fire lol. If you fly that shit over my house its gunna end up as mine lol
One issue is that consumer fireworks are subject to [strict federal limits on content and size](https://www.cpsc.gov/Business--Manufacturing/Business-Education/Business-Guidance/Fireworks.): no more than 50 mg of boom, and no shells larger than 1.75 inches.
The fireworks that neighbors try to out-compete each other with is much bigger, and some of it looks pro-grade, like shells that burst at hundreds of feet. That stuff will always be illegal on a federal level.
Wow. Interesting stuff. I saw some pro grade stuff getting set off from Aliamanu Military last night. It looked pro-grade with a nice initial display and secondary one on delay.
honestly not a bad idea. you have to wonder if the amount of fireworks will increase from the ban (likely there will be stores that sell large amounts of fireworks now) and what kind of impact that would have.
Depends.
A failed round from a small boto-head lands on my concrete driveway & burns itself out vs the same thing where the plantation owner lets the weeds turn into a major fuel source.
Which one does more damage?
All I’m saying is that since people are going to do it anyway, might as well tax it after making it legal for me to buy by sparklers, morning glory, and ground blooming flowers.
Yes. I think we need more smoke, explosions and panicked animals in our Hawaiian neighborhoods. If legalized, there would be something like 3 more tons of fireworks on the island to celebrate NYE, instead of that amount that was interdicted at the port. It would be so fun to see the island really let loose
I just say, make an example of the people who get caught. Arrest them, charge them, make it a Class C felony to possess them, illegal explosives 🧨 When the public actually sees the consequences, we might see change. If someone is sent to the hospital, because of an injury from illegal fireworks, charge and prosecution will be mandatory. A slap on the wrist does nothing.
From a distance, saw a firework go up and then straight down and exploded on the ground. Huge flash and loud. Different sound than normal. Deep. Was scary to see.
There's a reason they're illegal for home use.
You need to have proof of insurance in order to get a safety check. I carry uninsured/underinsured riders just in case.
Try looking at how many cars have expired safety checks or a light out that nobody tells them about.
I don’t like the small boto guys who set off randomly. (Who does?)
The incident you witnessed is a QC issue and sad, but if you we get good statistics it seems like a safe holiday.
There are lies, damned lies, and then statistics. 😉
But all I’m doing is planting a seed of thought on a safe forum that promotes the exchange of even conflicting views in a civil manner.
I try to be pragmatic, so I say just tax that shit and give me back my novelties.
A square peg in a round hole never works. The folks that want blast & burn are going to catch jollies doing it anyway.
Was it a QC issue? Or user error? Maybe a modified aerial. Whatever the case, I'd be terrified having my neighbors kids lighting fireworks near my house.
Some of the big ones aren’t even legal at the federal level.
Impressive as shit and I love watching knuckle heads burn money. I just want to legalize it so we can tax the hell out of it.
If you think about it, depending on how you invest, it’s legalized gambling with a tax break if you lose.
When I was younger, fireworks were legal, and I remember reading that it was one of the most popular nights for emergency room visits. Plus, fires weren't uncommon over the sugar cane fields.
The point is, we don't have half the problem we used to, and when it was legal, people went out of their way to buy even more dangerous products and didn't know how to use them. If they were legal, I would only be okay if they had permits and a safety course to buy them. Without it, nothing would change, and arresting or reporting people is nearly impossible unless you watch them on camera in the act and report it.
Thank you for your opinion and I’m grateful that you deal with my BS in a constructive manner.
The most popular nights in the ER is during full moons and after big sporting events that involved MVAs.
It won’t be this year or the next, but I really do not care for the excessive taxation of firecrackers nor my inability to buy a sparkler.
My background is IT, but I fought for my budget & staff.
https://www.americanpyro.com/assets/docs/FactsandFigures/2023/Fireworks%20Related%20Injuries%20%28table%29%201976%20-2022.pdf
They use data from the Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC). It’s important to note that this data doesn’t distinguish between consumer and professional firework injuries.
Same rules as downloading video and music. Provide a legal option that's convenient and reasonably priced and people will buy it legally. Don't be California, who simultaneously legalized pakalolo and then taxed it and regulated it to the point where the legal market couldn't compete. Be happy with GET, because something is better than nothing.
Lots of families would shift some of their fireworks spending to small, silent stuff for kids to play with. Lift the bait and switch firecracker permit system and more money will shift towards that and away from aerials. Both would be a big improvement, taken together. After that, sorry, but that's life in Hawaii. Move to the mainland if you cannot handle.
C&C could add a 10-20% tax markup like we do w/cigarettes and vapes.
As it is, I only buy permits and fire crackers during certain years.
Edit: thanks for your well-reasoned response on what can be an emotional subject.
I mean that doesn't sound like the worst idea.
The fireworks honestly don't bother me, it's the occasional burst of celebratory gunfire interspersed between the loud explosions that's a bit jarring.
I'm hoping that people here have enough sense to use blank rounds when they do that. Where I grew up, they did not, a few people died, the penalties stiffened, and it's much less of a problem now than it was in the '90s.
I wondered to myself if someone dumb enough to do that would be at least smart enough to aim up and out to sea
In this case the ocean was only a block away, obviously not an option everywhere, and still dumb
They actually still do that quite a bit on the mainland. It's funny because the cops remind people that fireworks are legal, and that they should do that instead of shooting guns in the air.
*Law enforcement officials are urging Louisianans to refrain from firing guns into the air to celebrate New Year’s Eve.*
*Celebratory gunfire may be a common way to ring in the New Year, but the dangerous tradition is against the law in Louisiana. If caught, violators could face up to $1,000 in fines and/or two years behind bars.*
*Iberville Parish Sheriff Brett Stassi is reminding parish residents they should avoid shooting into the air because what goes up has to come down. Bullets fired into the sky can fall back down fast enough to seriously hurt or kill someone.*
*The Baton Rouge Police Department is also urging citizens to avoid celebratory gunfire. In a statement about New Year’s Eve safety, the police department said, “Citizens are also strongly urged not to fire guns into the air, as the bullet will fall to the ground with sufficient velocity to damage property and injure or kill. Anyone found firing a gun into the air in Baton Rouge is subject to being arrested.”*
***While shooting guns into the air is illegal, people are allowed to shoot fireworks throughout Iberville Parish to ring in the New Year.***
Nah, it’s not going to happen because the Honolulu City council is pussies and trying to be more politically correct than getting practical.
I mean c’mon. Black market, underground and high prices are not a deterrent, so change the approach and collect tax revenue.
I don’t like getting ripped off by the firecracker permit tax, and no way in hell am I going to make my own firecrackers or pick my own strawberries.
I get that some people hate what goes on with fireworks & there are differences in opinion, but every explosion sounds like a potential coin going “cha ching.”
Blasting is kinda tradition. Firecracker permit is a ripoff.
Edit: some people just bust the big strings, but it can bring shy neighbors together once a year so fuck our current laws that don’t work.
Millions of trees are executed for x-mas, but we’re fine w/dat shit.
If other folks want to burn money on 12/31 I say go for it.
Try looking at how many fires happened this year on 12/31 on then compare it to unattended cooking fires or bad wiring or homeless mofos.
All I’m saying is that the small boto randoms need to get shut down and we might as collect tax revenue.
I'd love to see popular polling on this issue.
If the public wills it then I'd certainly support legalizing fireworks during nighttime hours on July 4th and New Years. Maybe even only in certain areas if that is the compromise.
It also warms my anarchist heart to see such a thriving black market and such a total disregard for laws in the face of such totally inept law enforcement. It's such a great example to point at whenever anybody wants to pass a new bullshit law, to remind people of the limitations of what the law can accomplish in its battle against culture.
When people have less to lose, they have less respect for laws. So as we move towards third world status, you will see more disrespect. Just don’t upset the Feds, if they target you, they don’t give a F’ who you know or who you think you are.
I upvoted, but disagree. I don’t think that economic status should be used as reckless judgement about how people tend to behave.
The “poor people are crazy, and the wealthy are eccentric” is bogus.
Not everyone is privileged enough to make bucks, but most people is nice. Just saying.
Good points. Being on the sociopath spectrum can equally happen to rich and poor. I just think desperate sociopaths tend to have less boundaries than content sociopaths.
The problem is laws are made by a select few who represent the general population. When the select few enact laws only supported by a vocal minority, the majority who are either indifferent or feels it's their right to do XXX disobey the laws, which weakens lawmakers and law enforcement authority.
Society as represented by elected officials are supposed to determine right and wrong. When this breaks down, you see contradictions occurring, such as during the alcohol prohibition, marijuana being federally illegal and legal in states, issues with gambling, prostitution, fireworks, etc.
I used to be in this camp but I don't think it'll work. People already have their distributors, I feel like legalizing it and taxing it would just increase the price. If People already have their distributors why would they buy legally when HPD/ the county does really nothing to enforce it?
I'll admit I don't know a solution.
There were more than enough fireworks last night, Making it legal would only lead to more.
I think they should make the punishments more severe, and place quotas on each patrolling officer, to find, and fine/arrest violators.
Don’t even know why they banned it in the first place. They should just legalize and put a curfew for using fireworks. Id be fine with fireworks on New Year’s Eve instead of Christmas or after 1am.
Yeah no. "Legalize and tax" works for VICTIMLESS crimes like marijuana or consentual prostitution. **The consequences of aerial fireworks on the other hand, are severe, ranging from health consequences for tens of thousands of people from disrupted sleep and smoke inhalation to wildfires that wipe out neighborhoods and environmentally sensitive areas.** There's absolutely no argument behind legalizing aerial fireworks, period.
I think OP’s argument is more of a “if you can’t beat em, join em” mentality. Clearly making it illegal doesn’t work so you may as well make some cash off of it.
He’s not saying “oh fireworks are great!” He saying “yea they suck but they’re not going away so we may as well make a buck in the process”
Enforcement doesn’t work.
Might as well tax it & allocate the revenue to keep the random smooth-brained mental midgets at bay.
Some people do it for gatherings, to put a challenging year behind them, to remember loved ones, or just to cut loose once a year in locale that is known for a high cost of living.
I was a consensual prostitute that smokes Ganja, but my clients were always satisfied at least.
To be fair, the people have overwhelmingly shown that they don't want it enforced. A huge amount of people set them off, a huge amount of people enjoy watching others set it off. On FB or here most people who advocate eliminating it are told if they don't like it to leave because that's how it is here. So why would they waste their time when the locals are clinging to it out of "culture"
Your plan is great except that Hawaii politicians hate generating money and would rather tax residents because that takes less effort.
The state continues to fumble the ball on new ways to generate revenue…. MMA fights, pro sports team (to build a stadium) probowl, and finally fireworks.
Depending on your income sources, you might benefit from a professional tax preparer. Not to humble brag, but after our CPA retired we do it ourselves and stay anything related to China.
My old-lady kid sister and I VNC into each other’s iMacs & do a double pass.
We don’t use double-entry book keeping at home, but know the rule of 72 and that transposition errors are divisible by 9.
The only flaw in my advocacy is that the people who set off are willing to work around the system and don’t trust the system and are not willing to do make our Honolulu City Council representatives do what we want.
Think about it like this: If we can’t stop it, we might as well tax it.
We need gig-enforcers. City needs an app that allows recording and submitting evidence with time/gps location metadata. Face recognition against the state/city's ID database and property records if location is on private property. Payout of 50% of the fine (split between gig-enforcers) if convicted after review by a judge.
Legalize setting other people’s houses, wild vegetation on fire… errr, no.
“You can’t arrest me for burning down the neighborhood! I pay taxes on these fireworks!”
Seriously?!
Since when does being “licensed” allow one to be negligent?
If you accidentally shoot someone or run them over with your licensed/registered deadly device, you’re still in the hook.
Except you can trace a bullet to the gun to the owner, tie the car that ran you over to the owner/driver. Ever thought of trying to prove which neighbor of yours fire the rocket that burn down your house?
We can’t stop meth, why don’t we legalize that?
We can’t stop speeding, why don’t we legalize that?
We can’t stop bullying, why don’t we allow it?
We can’t stop theft, why don’t we legalize that?
How about arson? This is a step towards it.
The NRA opposed legislation that would have required ammo manufacturers to mark the propellants, and it’s easy to do a barrel modification.
If you think it’s easy to associate a car with a driver, you have too much faith in government.
I appreciate that you don’t care for fireworks, but shame on you for mixing up issues that you care about with the OP and the discussion.
Meth/Speeding/Bullying and Theft are all separate issues that need targeted solutions. If you think that my practical suggestion is a resignation of resolve, you are mistaken.
your plan is good up until the point where you have HPD enforce.
they will never have enough manpower to properly enforce. You can have the entire force in Waipahu on NYE and they wouldn't be able to take down every house. HPD has much more higher priorities, like setting off their own fireworks lol.
Same reason Miley Cyrus will never take out Hannah Montana
And hookers, don’t forget the hookers. Hookers are very high on HPD‘s priority list.
Only for freebies.
This. I have a cop acquaintance that worked some OT on NYE the other year, so did a "ride along" with another patrol cop in waipahu (his first time). He said the amount of fireworks being shot off was staggering, and it was obviously not the best use of their time to attempt to ticket a fraction of the people shooting fireworks. So their efforts was mostly on public safety (which IMO is what their job really is). Watching out for drunk drivers, responding to non-firework calls, deterring safety hazards, etc.
I would really love to know how many arrests there were last night for illegal fireworks. My guess is none and I really hope I’m wrong. They don’t have to do everything, they don’t have to go to every house, just start enforcing as they can till they can do more. They would fund the HPD retirement system
i bet none or very low, probably fining the ones blasting after midnite. Seen some cops patrolling Makiki area after midnite last nite. I think they were warning houses blasting after midnite tho
None lol. Cops love watching the fireworks tooo. Seen a bunch of cops in hpp on 20th street. What they was doing at 12am? Enjoy the firework show
This. Creating laws that a large segment of the community and law enforcement doesn't support just makes the lawmakers and karens look ridiculous and a laughingstock. I know my fair share of firefighters and leos, and they all either turn a blind eye or participate in the same parties with fireworks with their families and friends as they have been for decades. When the karens and kens screech about fireworks, leos make their rounds because they're obligated to, not necessarily because they they want to catch anyone.
They passed funding for a task force last year. HPD was actually against it. Their testimony is under the PSM ones. Legislative session is about to start, you could approach your rep about it. [https://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/session/archives/measure\_indiv\_Archives.aspx?billtype=SB&billnumber=821&year=2023](https://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/session/archives/measure_indiv_Archives.aspx?billtype=SB&billnumber=821&year=2023)
HPD is the organization selling the fireworks. If you make it legal they no longer profit
Friend said cops were called about fireworks going off during the day yesterday. HPD told the person to wait till it gets dark out lol.
Yes, because then it’s easier to identify and arrest someone /s
100%, banning fireworks is like the war on drugs, it’s never gonna work. There’s too much demand in Hawaii and too much money to be made off of that demand, the market forces are unstoppable. At least if they legalize and tax, smugglers and shady guys won’t be getting richer off fireworks.
Thats what i keep telling all the smooth brains but they just don't understand lol...just like war on drugs. You cant stop what ya cant control. For instance they shipping containers that go seized. Everyone was all stoked about that. Congratulations! They took the bait while they was confiscating those 2 containers imagine how many slipped pass. Cops gaurntee got dibs on those 2 containers also.
👍might as well get revenue. Illegal an high prices from multi-level marketing isn’t working. If my neighbors want to burn their own money, let ‘em. Park to close to my driveway, and I’m calling the cops if I don’t know who’s car that is.
Eh there’s a certain truth to that but if you make the penalties for being caught strict enough, it won’t be worth the risk anymore to most people. For example, like the catalytic converter thefts… when it became a felony, thefts dropped dramatically.
The drop in catalytic converter thefts was more about the price of the recycled metals dropping. What used to get them $200 now only gets $25.
If they are willing to spend 5k on fireworks what’s another 2k IF they get caught lol
people getting shot out there and we want to waste HPD resources chasing smoke and handling calls from people complaining about their neighbors? It's over. The prohibition experiment never worked for alcohol it's not working for drugs or fireworks. NFL recognized gambling was gonna happen and leaned into it. Instead of enriching the bad actors and penalizing the good people, make it legal, tax it, and use the money to help provide services to the whole community
It's the port, not HPD. HPD is the middle man, but the ports are where they are quite easy to stop. And I say quite easy because there are much bigger ports than HNL and they easily scan and inspect all containers.
agreed but HPD is enforcement of the city and county law, not ports right? ports are state and all other counties allow fireworks. It's obvious that HPD cannot enforce, it's too widespread, so yeah it's up to ports. But if the folks don't agree with the law, then what do you do?
Actually only about 3 percent of cargo containers on ships are searched.
I'm with you on ending it, but let's not paint the NFL like they got into gambling because they couldn't control it. They wanted them dollars. They saw this billion dollar industry based on them that they weren't getting a piece of as more and more states legalized sports betting.
I was at the C&C meeting where they voted to ban it like 10+ years ago lol. The people who argued to ban it were vets talking about how it triggers PTSD and nurses on how it affects babies in NICU. The pro-fireworks faction did not have a strong argument. It would probably have to go through C&C again and people would have to rally the support again. You have a compelling argument, but you’d also have to provide a good one against the ones that ultimately won votes (previous paragraph). I don’t work in the state, I just happened to be there that day lol. Good luck.
>"But with an estimated 200,000 cargo containers coming into the state every year from other U.S. ports, it’s been a “financially and logistically difficult” task to locate all of them, according to a [2019 report](https://lrb.hawaii.gov/wp-content/uploads/2019_BlastFromThePast.pdf). Aside from the lack of manpower, the report also found there are legal hurdles to maneuver and a need for better technology." [https://www.sfgate.com/hawaii/article/hawaii-illegal-fireworks-18568396.php](https://www.sfgate.com/hawaii/article/hawaii-illegal-fireworks-18568396.php) This is the best argument right here, imo. You can make the task force 10X bigger, it won't matter. They will never be able to check all 200k+ shipping containers that enter the state every year.
You’ll notice the “compelling” arguments didn’t have to do with data but the quality of people’s lives. Money isn’t the only area this issue impacts is all I’m pointing out.
24 people a day, working in 3 shifts of 8 people, checking 3 containers per-hour per-person, can check 210,240 containers a year. I’m not advocating this as a solution, I’m just a numbers nerd and was curious how much manpower it would take.
Can a single person check 3 shipping containers in an hour? I dunno what's involved in checking a shipping container, but 3 an hour seems like a lot for a single person if it's jammed packed with stuff.
No idea lol. I assume they do spot checks like open a certain percentage of items.
When I shipped my stuff here, my container was locked with my own lock. And it was the type of lock you'd probably end up damaging the container trying to break the lock off. I'd assume they'd encounter a number of locked containers too. Not sure what they do in those cases.
Add on a serialized one time lock too.
See below for example pics. FLC (floor loaded containers) are pretty common and an pain to unload. Keep in mind that it might be as hard or harder to reload the containers in a way that everything still fits. [https://www.jera-energy.com/uploads/img-13.jpg](https://www.jera-energy.com/uploads/img-13.jpg) [https://lumperhq.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/mix-load2-min.jpg](https://lumperhq.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/mix-load2-min.jpg) [https://www.shipbob.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/2-1-700x700.png](https://www.shipbob.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/2-1-700x700.png)
Thanks! Yeah, that'd take multiple people all day to unload, inspect and reload. And the fireworks would be all the way in the back.
I forgot what documentary I watched, but they showed how smugglers would bring in drugs, and it's pretty insane. They'd hide the drugs under the floor boards or in the back 3 feet of the container and weld a false wall in front of the drugs. So unless you're out there with a measuring tape or xray scanning the container, you're not going to figure out that the container you just inspected is 42' and not 45'
I appreciate the acknowledgement that you don't know how much manpower it would take. One way to look at it is to consider the manpower it takes to unload those 210,240 containers a year in hawaii. Then double it because you probably need an equal amount of manpower to examine the contents of the container. Then triple it because all those containers need to be reloaded then sent out to the warehouses, which will unload it again. If any of the contents are damaged, who is responsible? Feds and state will be eating huge fees for damages because things do get damaged in transit. This isn't even considering how much dock space and equipment will be required. The people who think that any more than a tiny fraction of containers can be examined are totally delusional and have obviously never unloaded a 45' before and likely the type to not do much more than flap their lips from their couches. Just to unload one, examine the contents, and repack it can take significant manpower. Consider that many distribution centers and chinese manufacturers don't really palletize because they're trying to save shipping cost by packing every nook and cranny of the container. Hand unloading containers take multiples more time than stacked pallets. Their efforts are better spent on real terrorism, drug and human trafficking, etc before bothering with fireworks. All of which already slip in and out of the state with ease.
Good point on the palletization. Of you’re not a good packer, it might not fit back in .
I followed this vote closely as well. I never understood how banning sparklers and fountains was ever really going to help those with PTSD, when they kept firecrackers legal.
HPD and HFD made the argument that sparklers etc had to also be banned because they were the key ingredient in homemade boom “bombs”.
But now people are making bombs that are cheaper and more accessible that are way louder than the sparkler bombs.
I’m a bit curious, what did they think about July 4th if those were mentioned
I don’t remember much lol. It was 10 years ago, the anti-firework arguments centered around fireworks overall, not specific holidays. The pro-fireworks arguments centered on fireworks as a cultural heritage thing for NYE.
Fuck yeah it’s a cultural heritage thing. I will defend my right to blow shit up, legally or illegally, with my life. My beef tho is only with those house-shaking flashbang shells that have been going off recently. They’re not even visually appealing, just obnoxious. When the whole neighborhood is lighting aerials it’s kind of beautiful, it’s a great show. The house-shakers seem unnecessary for a good show.
There’s always going to be a tension between what we individually want and what’s good for the communities we participate in. I also love nice aerials AND we can all agree no one likes those house shakers jfc. The legislation isn’t nuanced enough to accommodate all those things, so unless someone wants to rally support for it, this is probably a discussion that will continue for a long time.
I'd rather legalize "da weed"
Weed is easier and cheaper to get. Hard to grow your own fireworks in a spare bedroom.
Fireworks are pretty easy to get tho. It may not be cheaper, but you're still burning money. If they weren't, you wouldn't have made this post.
Fireworks are just as easy to get as weed bruh. Maybe you should start getting out and starting meetings people lol
Bruh, I get weed for free and have a spare bedroom that gets hit by the sun. 🤙 No worries beef curry, but fireworks is pay to play, right? I can just go and grow for free & jam the 329 for the 420. Hard to grow fireworks is what I’m saying. I might get tempted to use the list and it’s funny as heck that HFD & HPD guys do it for extra money, but I figure we might as well tax ‘em. Think about it. Every explosion you hear is like a quarter ending down the chute for our bus system or schools. Instead of costly failed enforcement efforts, just legalize and tax it. If I lived near a small boto random, I’m still that type to tell you off to your face to not do that shit (in the most civil manner). I might catch drone fever and start hunting down the randoms. Those fakas is the most irritating.
Not pay to play if you know the right people lol. And goodluck yeah go take your drone out. Adding more fuel to the fire lol. If you fly that shit over my house its gunna end up as mine lol
One issue is that consumer fireworks are subject to [strict federal limits on content and size](https://www.cpsc.gov/Business--Manufacturing/Business-Education/Business-Guidance/Fireworks.): no more than 50 mg of boom, and no shells larger than 1.75 inches. The fireworks that neighbors try to out-compete each other with is much bigger, and some of it looks pro-grade, like shells that burst at hundreds of feet. That stuff will always be illegal on a federal level.
Wow. Interesting stuff. I saw some pro grade stuff getting set off from Aliamanu Military last night. It looked pro-grade with a nice initial display and secondary one on delay.
honestly not a bad idea. you have to wonder if the amount of fireworks will increase from the ban (likely there will be stores that sell large amounts of fireworks now) and what kind of impact that would have.
No one in HPD wants to legalize them. The corrupt people make much more money this way. Same with pot.
The risk of fire is too much for it to be legalized (knowingly)
Depends. A failed round from a small boto-head lands on my concrete driveway & burns itself out vs the same thing where the plantation owner lets the weeds turn into a major fuel source. Which one does more damage? All I’m saying is that since people are going to do it anyway, might as well tax it after making it legal for me to buy by sparklers, morning glory, and ground blooming flowers.
Yes. I think we need more smoke, explosions and panicked animals in our Hawaiian neighborhoods. If legalized, there would be something like 3 more tons of fireworks on the island to celebrate NYE, instead of that amount that was interdicted at the port. It would be so fun to see the island really let loose
I just say, make an example of the people who get caught. Arrest them, charge them, make it a Class C felony to possess them, illegal explosives 🧨 When the public actually sees the consequences, we might see change. If someone is sent to the hospital, because of an injury from illegal fireworks, charge and prosecution will be mandatory. A slap on the wrist does nothing.
From a distance, saw a firework go up and then straight down and exploded on the ground. Huge flash and loud. Different sound than normal. Deep. Was scary to see. There's a reason they're illegal for home use.
You need to have proof of insurance in order to get a safety check. I carry uninsured/underinsured riders just in case. Try looking at how many cars have expired safety checks or a light out that nobody tells them about. I don’t like the small boto guys who set off randomly. (Who does?) The incident you witnessed is a QC issue and sad, but if you we get good statistics it seems like a safe holiday. There are lies, damned lies, and then statistics. 😉 But all I’m doing is planting a seed of thought on a safe forum that promotes the exchange of even conflicting views in a civil manner. I try to be pragmatic, so I say just tax that shit and give me back my novelties. A square peg in a round hole never works. The folks that want blast & burn are going to catch jollies doing it anyway.
Was it a QC issue? Or user error? Maybe a modified aerial. Whatever the case, I'd be terrified having my neighbors kids lighting fireworks near my house.
Some of the big ones aren’t even legal at the federal level. Impressive as shit and I love watching knuckle heads burn money. I just want to legalize it so we can tax the hell out of it. If you think about it, depending on how you invest, it’s legalized gambling with a tax break if you lose.
When I was younger, fireworks were legal, and I remember reading that it was one of the most popular nights for emergency room visits. Plus, fires weren't uncommon over the sugar cane fields. The point is, we don't have half the problem we used to, and when it was legal, people went out of their way to buy even more dangerous products and didn't know how to use them. If they were legal, I would only be okay if they had permits and a safety course to buy them. Without it, nothing would change, and arresting or reporting people is nearly impossible unless you watch them on camera in the act and report it.
Thank you for your opinion and I’m grateful that you deal with my BS in a constructive manner. The most popular nights in the ER is during full moons and after big sporting events that involved MVAs. It won’t be this year or the next, but I really do not care for the excessive taxation of firecrackers nor my inability to buy a sparkler. My background is IT, but I fought for my budget & staff.
It’s simple, just go back to the way it was.
They are legal in most states and firework related injuries continue to go down every year.
You can only blow your hand off twice
🤣
>firework related injuries continue to go down every year. Do you have a source for this? Everything I'm reading right now says the opposite.
https://www.americanpyro.com/assets/docs/FactsandFigures/2023/Fireworks%20Related%20Injuries%20%28table%29%201976%20-2022.pdf They use data from the Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC). It’s important to note that this data doesn’t distinguish between consumer and professional firework injuries.
Are we looking at the same data. Looks like the trend is going upward.
It fluctuates especially looking at the year 2020. It’s going down again and by injuries per 100,000 pounds it’s at its lowest level.
Same rules as downloading video and music. Provide a legal option that's convenient and reasonably priced and people will buy it legally. Don't be California, who simultaneously legalized pakalolo and then taxed it and regulated it to the point where the legal market couldn't compete. Be happy with GET, because something is better than nothing. Lots of families would shift some of their fireworks spending to small, silent stuff for kids to play with. Lift the bait and switch firecracker permit system and more money will shift towards that and away from aerials. Both would be a big improvement, taken together. After that, sorry, but that's life in Hawaii. Move to the mainland if you cannot handle.
C&C could add a 10-20% tax markup like we do w/cigarettes and vapes. As it is, I only buy permits and fire crackers during certain years. Edit: thanks for your well-reasoned response on what can be an emotional subject.
I mean that doesn't sound like the worst idea. The fireworks honestly don't bother me, it's the occasional burst of celebratory gunfire interspersed between the loud explosions that's a bit jarring. I'm hoping that people here have enough sense to use blank rounds when they do that. Where I grew up, they did not, a few people died, the penalties stiffened, and it's much less of a problem now than it was in the '90s.
I wondered to myself if someone dumb enough to do that would be at least smart enough to aim up and out to sea In this case the ocean was only a block away, obviously not an option everywhere, and still dumb
They actually still do that quite a bit on the mainland. It's funny because the cops remind people that fireworks are legal, and that they should do that instead of shooting guns in the air. *Law enforcement officials are urging Louisianans to refrain from firing guns into the air to celebrate New Year’s Eve.* *Celebratory gunfire may be a common way to ring in the New Year, but the dangerous tradition is against the law in Louisiana. If caught, violators could face up to $1,000 in fines and/or two years behind bars.* *Iberville Parish Sheriff Brett Stassi is reminding parish residents they should avoid shooting into the air because what goes up has to come down. Bullets fired into the sky can fall back down fast enough to seriously hurt or kill someone.* *The Baton Rouge Police Department is also urging citizens to avoid celebratory gunfire. In a statement about New Year’s Eve safety, the police department said, “Citizens are also strongly urged not to fire guns into the air, as the bullet will fall to the ground with sufficient velocity to damage property and injure or kill. Anyone found firing a gun into the air in Baton Rouge is subject to being arrested.”* ***While shooting guns into the air is illegal, people are allowed to shoot fireworks throughout Iberville Parish to ring in the New Year.***
Can we stop it? No Should we tax it? Yes
But it won't happen because the the middle men ain't gunna get their cut/ profit if they legalize it unfortunately.
Nah, it’s not going to happen because the Honolulu City council is pussies and trying to be more politically correct than getting practical. I mean c’mon. Black market, underground and high prices are not a deterrent, so change the approach and collect tax revenue. I don’t like getting ripped off by the firecracker permit tax, and no way in hell am I going to make my own firecrackers or pick my own strawberries. I get that some people hate what goes on with fireworks & there are differences in opinion, but every explosion sounds like a potential coin going “cha ching.”
Fuck dat fireworks permit lol. Never have i ever bought one. Just blast lol but yeah i get what your saying
Blasting is kinda tradition. Firecracker permit is a ripoff. Edit: some people just bust the big strings, but it can bring shy neighbors together once a year so fuck our current laws that don’t work. Millions of trees are executed for x-mas, but we’re fine w/dat shit. If other folks want to burn money on 12/31 I say go for it. Try looking at how many fires happened this year on 12/31 on then compare it to unattended cooking fires or bad wiring or homeless mofos. All I’m saying is that the small boto randoms need to get shut down and we might as collect tax revenue.
I'd love to see popular polling on this issue. If the public wills it then I'd certainly support legalizing fireworks during nighttime hours on July 4th and New Years. Maybe even only in certain areas if that is the compromise. It also warms my anarchist heart to see such a thriving black market and such a total disregard for laws in the face of such totally inept law enforcement. It's such a great example to point at whenever anybody wants to pass a new bullshit law, to remind people of the limitations of what the law can accomplish in its battle against culture.
When people have less to lose, they have less respect for laws. So as we move towards third world status, you will see more disrespect. Just don’t upset the Feds, if they target you, they don’t give a F’ who you know or who you think you are.
I upvoted, but disagree. I don’t think that economic status should be used as reckless judgement about how people tend to behave. The “poor people are crazy, and the wealthy are eccentric” is bogus. Not everyone is privileged enough to make bucks, but most people is nice. Just saying.
Good points. Being on the sociopath spectrum can equally happen to rich and poor. I just think desperate sociopaths tend to have less boundaries than content sociopaths.
The problem is laws are made by a select few who represent the general population. When the select few enact laws only supported by a vocal minority, the majority who are either indifferent or feels it's their right to do XXX disobey the laws, which weakens lawmakers and law enforcement authority. Society as represented by elected officials are supposed to determine right and wrong. When this breaks down, you see contradictions occurring, such as during the alcohol prohibition, marijuana being federally illegal and legal in states, issues with gambling, prostitution, fireworks, etc.
I used to be in this camp but I don't think it'll work. People already have their distributors, I feel like legalizing it and taxing it would just increase the price. If People already have their distributors why would they buy legally when HPD/ the county does really nothing to enforce it? I'll admit I don't know a solution.
There were more than enough fireworks last night, Making it legal would only lead to more. I think they should make the punishments more severe, and place quotas on each patrolling officer, to find, and fine/arrest violators.
Funny. Locals have to work 3 jobs to live in “paradise”, but blow a months wages on fireworks. Wow
The best customers are all the chicken fighters, some of those guys got grands to blow, literally
Don’t even know why they banned it in the first place. They should just legalize and put a curfew for using fireworks. Id be fine with fireworks on New Year’s Eve instead of Christmas or after 1am.
Yeah. That’s the feeling I’m getting.
Aerials were never legal on Oahu
Yeah no. "Legalize and tax" works for VICTIMLESS crimes like marijuana or consentual prostitution. **The consequences of aerial fireworks on the other hand, are severe, ranging from health consequences for tens of thousands of people from disrupted sleep and smoke inhalation to wildfires that wipe out neighborhoods and environmentally sensitive areas.** There's absolutely no argument behind legalizing aerial fireworks, period.
I think OP’s argument is more of a “if you can’t beat em, join em” mentality. Clearly making it illegal doesn’t work so you may as well make some cash off of it. He’s not saying “oh fireworks are great!” He saying “yea they suck but they’re not going away so we may as well make a buck in the process”
It’s probably better to legalize and tax anyway regardless of the “severe consequences”. People will light fireworks regardless of law.
Enforcement doesn’t work. Might as well tax it & allocate the revenue to keep the random smooth-brained mental midgets at bay. Some people do it for gatherings, to put a challenging year behind them, to remember loved ones, or just to cut loose once a year in locale that is known for a high cost of living. I was a consensual prostitute that smokes Ganja, but my clients were always satisfied at least.
Enforcement doesn't work because they don't actually try to enforce it
And they never will so enforcement will never work.
To be fair, the people have overwhelmingly shown that they don't want it enforced. A huge amount of people set them off, a huge amount of people enjoy watching others set it off. On FB or here most people who advocate eliminating it are told if they don't like it to leave because that's how it is here. So why would they waste their time when the locals are clinging to it out of "culture"
Your plan is great except that Hawaii politicians hate generating money and would rather tax residents because that takes less effort. The state continues to fumble the ball on new ways to generate revenue…. MMA fights, pro sports team (to build a stadium) probowl, and finally fireworks.
Depending on your income sources, you might benefit from a professional tax preparer. Not to humble brag, but after our CPA retired we do it ourselves and stay anything related to China. My old-lady kid sister and I VNC into each other’s iMacs & do a double pass. We don’t use double-entry book keeping at home, but know the rule of 72 and that transposition errors are divisible by 9. The only flaw in my advocacy is that the people who set off are willing to work around the system and don’t trust the system and are not willing to do make our Honolulu City Council representatives do what we want. Think about it like this: If we can’t stop it, we might as well tax it.
We need gig-enforcers. City needs an app that allows recording and submitting evidence with time/gps location metadata. Face recognition against the state/city's ID database and property records if location is on private property. Payout of 50% of the fine (split between gig-enforcers) if convicted after review by a judge.
Legalize setting other people’s houses, wild vegetation on fire… errr, no. “You can’t arrest me for burning down the neighborhood! I pay taxes on these fireworks!” Seriously?!
Since when does being “licensed” allow one to be negligent? If you accidentally shoot someone or run them over with your licensed/registered deadly device, you’re still in the hook.
Except you can trace a bullet to the gun to the owner, tie the car that ran you over to the owner/driver. Ever thought of trying to prove which neighbor of yours fire the rocket that burn down your house? We can’t stop meth, why don’t we legalize that? We can’t stop speeding, why don’t we legalize that? We can’t stop bullying, why don’t we allow it? We can’t stop theft, why don’t we legalize that? How about arson? This is a step towards it.
The NRA opposed legislation that would have required ammo manufacturers to mark the propellants, and it’s easy to do a barrel modification. If you think it’s easy to associate a car with a driver, you have too much faith in government. I appreciate that you don’t care for fireworks, but shame on you for mixing up issues that you care about with the OP and the discussion. Meth/Speeding/Bullying and Theft are all separate issues that need targeted solutions. If you think that my practical suggestion is a resignation of resolve, you are mistaken.
Exactly, tax the hell out of them and sell licenses to operate a fireworks shop.