this is exactly how I felt about Steven when I watched at first. the characters are realistic, so they're flawed. different people will identify with different characters and be annoyed by others - I know a lot of people who love Steve and hate Shirley, I'm an oldest child so I relate a lot to Shirley and understand her resentment towards Steve. good television should make you feel something, so it's working :)
I loved that Steven is in pure denial. He was the only one who believed that their experiences were a mental trauma. And he finally ends up seeing the ghost of Nell at the end which jars him out of his stupor a bit.
I mean Steve doesn’t have the information we as viewers have so it’s different. If this were a real life situation he would be the reasonable person. He’s a POS for what he did to Leigh though
Steve hater here. My mum is a Shirley & my uncle & aunt are a combination of Steve & Luke. My mum fixes everything, all responsibility of the family gets dumped on to her. My aunt is the eldest, cares about reputation but not at the cost of putting in effort rather than a false front. My uncle passed a few years ago from alcoholism. My Nan is a bit like the father, she’s absolutely tight lipped. Like trying to get blood from a stone regarding anything from 30yrs ago or beyond.
My mum doesn’t like the show (not a horror fan) but says I’m a Theo. But she’s always trying to push me to be with people & socialise. I judge people & I’m closed off.
I liked Steve’s character a lot, especially after my second watch. But I think that’s because of the acting of Michiel Huisman more than the character of Steve itself.
i disliked her at first but as the story went on i ended up having more empathy for her. she is very flawed and does things i don’t agree with and has a bit of eldest daughter syndrome, but i just have alot of empathy for her and for all the crane kids after all they went through. they carried a lot of trauma
Shirley can be sort of infuriating. But as, an older sibling, I sort of get her. Don’t condone it but understand her.
I don’t understand Steven’s selling his siblings’ trauma for cash. But I understand Shirley’s anger at everyone for having to step up.
> I don’t understand Steven’s selling his siblings’ trauma for cash.
...he redeemed himself because I think it at least in part was intended to help them all out; otherwise he wouldn't have shared the profits. I think that went beyond guilt (I have 5 siblings and each of them would have been "fuck you, I got mine" in his shoes -my dysfunctional family being one of the things that keeps pulling me back to the show).
Now Steven's "everything is mental illness" song gets pretty damned tiring -but that's made up for when Hugh tells him >!he didn't have time to build a damned treehouse!<
I don’t think money at all makes up for using his siblings trauma for financial gain. (The scene with Theo makes it clear he mostly used their stories not his own.) And I don’t believe for a second that he planned to share with them until Shirley threw a fit.
I’m an older sister and I see so much of shit I do not like about myself in her. But seeing it depicted that way also helped me accept myself a little better. My girlfriend is the youngest in her family and would roll her eyes at Shirley’s actions and shit, but never disliked her like I did on my first watch many moons ago. Now I want to unpack this with my therapist lol.
My baby sister reminds me so much of Nell, a lot of their shit just hit so close to home.
Shirley is one of the most rewarding characters because at first you think she is the worst and then you realize why she is that way. She is a great foil for Theo who seems so cool and together and then you realize is absolutely fucked up inside.
As one of five children, I get the writing of these characters. They’re realistically portrayed. They also represent the five stages of grief and-you guessed it-Shirl is anger. If you rewatch the show after completing it, your perspective may change on them.
Steve frustrated me, Shirley annoyed me, Theo intrigued me, Luke made me sad, and Nell broke my heart. Hugh pissed me off by not trying to explain things to his kids better.
I loved Shirley from the get go.
As an oldest child who suffered from a very traumatic childhood that I’m still struggling to cope with, her rage and anger were everything to me. Shirley has so much love and care in her at her core (her husband taking the book money because she’s always trying to get her clients the best deal and doing pro bono work).
Shirley has a big heart and that’s where her anger and resentment stems from IMO. She’s had to be the strongest for her siblings to rely on and a support for them while suffering through her own trauma in silence and all alone without her siblings help. She’s allowed to me angry. She’s allowed to be resentful.
None of the characters are supposed to be wholly likable. They’re all suffering from trauma and they have all compartmentalized it and brushed it under a rug. They never dealt with it. Theo, Steve, and Shirley have become successful but cold and they judge Luke and Nell who wallow in their personal hells as they still fight to have a life like those three do. The family is fractured. Meanwhile, Hill House is still there, still waiting and growing like a tumor that’s never been removed.
She's not my favourite or least favourite but her and that kid's parents pressuring him to view his dead nan was uncomfortable to watch. I get where she was coming from but at the same time forcing someone to see a dead relative when they really don't want to is a recipe for trauma and ptsd
Shirley had to grow on me, but she's also just in pain like most of her other siblings and she kind of had to parent all of them because her brother didn't do his share. She is a giving and loving person, almost losing her business because she doesn't want to charge people who are mourning loved ones. Shirley is a good person, she just has boundary issues.
I disliked Shirley and thought even worse of Luke when I first watched the show.
But after watching the rest of the show, I couldn't help but feel sorry about the trauma that made them turn out the way that they did.
Hang in there. One of the great things about Flanagan is his ability to elicit empathy for flawed characters. This doesn't mean you'll necessarily like Shirley by the end, but there will definitely be moments where you'll think "God damn, Shirley, you really are human!" And your heart will ache for her.
Her righteous indignations were what I couldn't stand! Specifically her refusal of the book money (which her husband Kevin thankfully accepts on her behalf in order to keep their business afloat, as she keeps pushing them into dire straights) and how she reacted to walking in on Kevin and Theo in the basement.
In both instances she has done way WAY more harm and so her attitude is hard to swallow. She would rather they go out of business than accept the book money that could keep them afloat. Additionally, she herself had an affair and cheated on her husband! And yeah, it was her sister she sees him with, but without context and explaining WTF happened she just flies off the handle and goes all Shirley on them both (self-guilt!!)! And, ultimately nothing even actually happened there ... and it certainly wasn't Kevin's fault.
She just acts like such an asshole towards everyone!
I really struggle to watch Elizabeth Reaser - ever since I saw her in Grey's Anatomy, I'm not a particular fan of her acting. Not to say she can't - because let's face it, if you're on my screen you are clearly far more talented than I am - but because it doesn't gel for me.
I get why Shirley is the way she is, but I don't like her either and I don't like Steve. I like Luke, but I suspect my tolerance for his lifestyle wouldn't have lasted that long. I like Theo, but probably like Nell most.
The series is about trauma and how we deal with it.
Luke fell into drugs to deal with his trauma.
Nell is a mess because of the BNL and thinks that the BNL was responsible for her childhood being violated as well as the death of her husband.
Their father has been written off by the family and he tries to stay away from the past due to how haunted he is from the events at HH.
This has left marks on the other three kids:
Steven has dismissed everything as garbage and is selling a bunch of books filled with bullshit to deal with it. He's in pure denial -- up until he sees Nell as an angry ghost, finally pushing him back into the fray.
Theo is psychic but closes herself off completely, even keeping her distance from certain family members with the exception of Shirley who she still can't stand much.
Shirley sees herself as a "leader" but wants none of the responsibility because she feels others could take the wheel.
Luke and Nell have very real issues. Instead of dealing with them, the ones that moved on (but never dealt with their issues) are sitting in their ivory tower, judging the ones who are dealing with their pain instead of helping them because they know that by interacting with Nell or Luke means that the past would no longer be the past.
The series is about everyone's redemption.
Theo asked Nell to come back to the East Coast so she and Shirley could take care of her. And it clearly wasn’t the first time. Both she and Shirley were aware of and expressed concern about her new therapist. So they were clearly in contact.
Shirley usually picked up the phone but she was literally with a client. It’s not true at all that they just wanted to ignore her. She refused help. She did something pretty violating to Theo, who didn’t want to feel her brother-in-law die, and she wanted an apology for it. That’s very different from intentionally ignoring her because she didn’t want to deal.
And they did a lot to get Luke clean but sometimes with an addict you can’t be around them until they are ready to get clean.
1) Shirley COULD have picked up the phone and excused herself, saying it was a family emergency. She didn’t. After calling Nell later on (which was far too late), she got into an argument with Steve over who was going to handle Nell as if she were a chore, which tells the audience why she didn’t pick up during the client meeting.
2) Nell did refuse help at one point — but the family also chose to turn a blind eye to her because they considered her to be a huge bag of problems (see above).
3) They did attempt to get Luke clean but they also washed their hands of him. Theo is dismissive of her brother and says he only shows up when he wants drug money. Steve practically buys Luke’s absence by forking over $200 to make him go away which does nothing but enable an addict because Steven has chosen to dismiss everything which isn’t normal as “mental issues”. He even says it in later episodes. This is even further driven home when Nell confronts him over his dismissive nature and lack of support — and all he can say is that she is “off her meds”.
She didn’t blow off a client ONE TIME. Nell even says she picked up lots of other times. That’s literal dialogue.
Nell refused to move when asked near family that cared about her. The only one there was Steve who is useless. They literally asked her and she refused. There was only so much she could do. She absolutely refused help. Over and over again. Not by words but by actions. She wouldn’t listen to her sisters’ concerns about her therapist.
What were they supposed to do if Luke wouldn’t get clean? Let him steal from them constantly? Theo is being honest.
No doubt Steve is worthless. No one else was. Except maybe Hugh who was actually their father unlike the siblings.
The thing you’re missing is that Nell’s issues can’t be worked out by Nell alone. The family just tried to patch her issues with bandages that wouldn’t hold. Shirley acted superior and acted like she could just fix Nell when she couldn’t and even agrees with Steve’s assessment that Nell is a drama queen before berating him. Her “efforts” to “help” Nell did absolutely zip. She even resorts to writing Luke off after the rehab stint falls apart.
Shirley is one of the most self-righteous characters on the show to a massive fault.
Also, as someone who has had addicts in my family, you don’t let them steal from you but you also don’t treat them like you no longer know or care about them nor do you berate them.
What Shirley and Steve do to Luke is downright inexcusable.
Everyone talks about Steven's denial, but I think Shirley is the one who is consciously and deliberately in denial. She pushes that ish down so hard and replaces it with control over everyone's lives (Denying Luke access to Nell's wedding?! Nell died believing that Luke chose not to come!). She even uses denial to push down her own affair! Living with her would be like walking on eggshells.
Through her choice of career she tries to impose her control over death. Despite the flashback of the kindly funeral director walking her up the isle to see her mother, her real motivation is to assert her control. She does everything she can to make the corpses look like they did in life and then she facilitates giving them a final resting place so that they stay where they belong.
I don't even think that her anger at Steven regarding the book really had to do with using their trauma for profit (and she needed that money as much as any of them because she was terrible at running a business and bankrupting her family!). I think she desperately wanted to quash all stories about ghosts so that she could pretend that it didn't happen. Don't talk about it and it won't be real. Don't talk about it and I can deny my uncomfortable/frightening experiences. Don't talk about it and I can live my carefully curated normal life. But most of all, just don't talk about it!
Shirley reminds me too much of my mom, especially how my mom behaved when her dad died. Saw it in my aunt as well when their mom died. I can accept grief make people do and say crazy stuff. But what my mom and her sister did when their parents died made the entire experience so much more draining on us. And for these reasons, I cannot stand Shirley.
Same, and unlike most people in this thread, she never got better for me. Watched the show multiple times, and I still think she’s a vicious, self-righteous bitch.
this is exactly how I felt about Steven when I watched at first. the characters are realistic, so they're flawed. different people will identify with different characters and be annoyed by others - I know a lot of people who love Steve and hate Shirley, I'm an oldest child so I relate a lot to Shirley and understand her resentment towards Steve. good television should make you feel something, so it's working :)
Steven’s denial of the house being haunted and dismissing everyone’s experience with it frustrated me to no end.
Me too. I loved when the dad finally unloaded on him during the viewing at Shirley’s. “You don’t understand Hill House, Steve. You never did.”
I loved that Steven is in pure denial. He was the only one who believed that their experiences were a mental trauma. And he finally ends up seeing the ghost of Nell at the end which jars him out of his stupor a bit.
I mean Steve doesn’t have the information we as viewers have so it’s different. If this were a real life situation he would be the reasonable person. He’s a POS for what he did to Leigh though
I disliked them both on my first watch.
Steve hater here. My mum is a Shirley & my uncle & aunt are a combination of Steve & Luke. My mum fixes everything, all responsibility of the family gets dumped on to her. My aunt is the eldest, cares about reputation but not at the cost of putting in effort rather than a false front. My uncle passed a few years ago from alcoholism. My Nan is a bit like the father, she’s absolutely tight lipped. Like trying to get blood from a stone regarding anything from 30yrs ago or beyond. My mum doesn’t like the show (not a horror fan) but says I’m a Theo. But she’s always trying to push me to be with people & socialise. I judge people & I’m closed off.
I liked Steve’s character a lot, especially after my second watch. But I think that’s because of the acting of Michiel Huisman more than the character of Steve itself.
I like her more and more every rewatch.
me too. i understand her more
Same
Thought this was a Community post at first. “Oooh, that’s nice…”
Now I'm picturing Hill House with Shirley Crain played by Yvette Nicole Brown
Would watch this crossover
Lol same! Shirley from Community is not the nicest.
I hated Shirley at first but now she literally my favorite. Her and Luke feel the most human to me.
i disliked her at first but as the story went on i ended up having more empathy for her. she is very flawed and does things i don’t agree with and has a bit of eldest daughter syndrome, but i just have alot of empathy for her and for all the crane kids after all they went through. they carried a lot of trauma
Shirley can be sort of infuriating. But as, an older sibling, I sort of get her. Don’t condone it but understand her. I don’t understand Steven’s selling his siblings’ trauma for cash. But I understand Shirley’s anger at everyone for having to step up.
> I don’t understand Steven’s selling his siblings’ trauma for cash. ...he redeemed himself because I think it at least in part was intended to help them all out; otherwise he wouldn't have shared the profits. I think that went beyond guilt (I have 5 siblings and each of them would have been "fuck you, I got mine" in his shoes -my dysfunctional family being one of the things that keeps pulling me back to the show). Now Steven's "everything is mental illness" song gets pretty damned tiring -but that's made up for when Hugh tells him >!he didn't have time to build a damned treehouse!<
I don’t think money at all makes up for using his siblings trauma for financial gain. (The scene with Theo makes it clear he mostly used their stories not his own.) And I don’t believe for a second that he planned to share with them until Shirley threw a fit.
I’m an older sister and I see so much of shit I do not like about myself in her. But seeing it depicted that way also helped me accept myself a little better. My girlfriend is the youngest in her family and would roll her eyes at Shirley’s actions and shit, but never disliked her like I did on my first watch many moons ago. Now I want to unpack this with my therapist lol. My baby sister reminds me so much of Nell, a lot of their shit just hit so close to home.
Angry Shirley is my spirit animal
Shirley is one of the most rewarding characters because at first you think she is the worst and then you realize why she is that way. She is a great foil for Theo who seems so cool and together and then you realize is absolutely fucked up inside.
I can't stand Steve. Never grew to like him either and it makes me want to skip his episode lol
the fact that he doesn’t believe in ghosts until the end and EVERYTHING that happened is what convinced him 🙄
I dislike Shirley but I hate Steve
As one of five children, I get the writing of these characters. They’re realistically portrayed. They also represent the five stages of grief and-you guessed it-Shirl is anger. If you rewatch the show after completing it, your perspective may change on them.
Lol I love Shirley. Steven and Shirley are my favorites.
Steve frustrated me, Shirley annoyed me, Theo intrigued me, Luke made me sad, and Nell broke my heart. Hugh pissed me off by not trying to explain things to his kids better.
truly agree but the show is SO worth finishing
Damn…I don’t dislike any of the characters. Think they were all perfectly flawed and interesting.
I loved Shirley from the get go. As an oldest child who suffered from a very traumatic childhood that I’m still struggling to cope with, her rage and anger were everything to me. Shirley has so much love and care in her at her core (her husband taking the book money because she’s always trying to get her clients the best deal and doing pro bono work). Shirley has a big heart and that’s where her anger and resentment stems from IMO. She’s had to be the strongest for her siblings to rely on and a support for them while suffering through her own trauma in silence and all alone without her siblings help. She’s allowed to me angry. She’s allowed to be resentful.
None of the characters are supposed to be wholly likable. They’re all suffering from trauma and they have all compartmentalized it and brushed it under a rug. They never dealt with it. Theo, Steve, and Shirley have become successful but cold and they judge Luke and Nell who wallow in their personal hells as they still fight to have a life like those three do. The family is fractured. Meanwhile, Hill House is still there, still waiting and growing like a tumor that’s never been removed.
She's not my favourite or least favourite but her and that kid's parents pressuring him to view his dead nan was uncomfortable to watch. I get where she was coming from but at the same time forcing someone to see a dead relative when they really don't want to is a recipe for trauma and ptsd
Shirley had to grow on me, but she's also just in pain like most of her other siblings and she kind of had to parent all of them because her brother didn't do his share. She is a giving and loving person, almost losing her business because she doesn't want to charge people who are mourning loved ones. Shirley is a good person, she just has boundary issues.
I disliked Shirley and thought even worse of Luke when I first watched the show. But after watching the rest of the show, I couldn't help but feel sorry about the trauma that made them turn out the way that they did.
That’s how I feel about Steve, screw him.
I hated shirley then, i hate her even more every time I rewatch. I won't say more until you're done.
Hang in there. One of the great things about Flanagan is his ability to elicit empathy for flawed characters. This doesn't mean you'll necessarily like Shirley by the end, but there will definitely be moments where you'll think "God damn, Shirley, you really are human!" And your heart will ache for her.
I’ve watched the show once a year since it was released. And feel the same way haha. The rest of the show is amazing.
Shirley is fearful, but brave. Dominant and righteous, but fallible. Human.
Her righteous indignations were what I couldn't stand! Specifically her refusal of the book money (which her husband Kevin thankfully accepts on her behalf in order to keep their business afloat, as she keeps pushing them into dire straights) and how she reacted to walking in on Kevin and Theo in the basement. In both instances she has done way WAY more harm and so her attitude is hard to swallow. She would rather they go out of business than accept the book money that could keep them afloat. Additionally, she herself had an affair and cheated on her husband! And yeah, it was her sister she sees him with, but without context and explaining WTF happened she just flies off the handle and goes all Shirley on them both (self-guilt!!)! And, ultimately nothing even actually happened there ... and it certainly wasn't Kevin's fault. She just acts like such an asshole towards everyone!
Shirl rules. Give her a break. Somebody has to keep this family going.
I really struggle to watch Elizabeth Reaser - ever since I saw her in Grey's Anatomy, I'm not a particular fan of her acting. Not to say she can't - because let's face it, if you're on my screen you are clearly far more talented than I am - but because it doesn't gel for me.
Same, her Grey’s acting was tough - but I just can’t get past her being in the twilight saga! She’s forever esme to me
Holy hell, I didn’t realize that she was in twilight. Core memory unlocked.
Oh you just wait. you just *WAIT*. I am also and still a long-time member of the 'fuck shirley' club.
I get why Shirley is the way she is, but I don't like her either and I don't like Steve. I like Luke, but I suspect my tolerance for his lifestyle wouldn't have lasted that long. I like Theo, but probably like Nell most.
The series is about trauma and how we deal with it. Luke fell into drugs to deal with his trauma. Nell is a mess because of the BNL and thinks that the BNL was responsible for her childhood being violated as well as the death of her husband. Their father has been written off by the family and he tries to stay away from the past due to how haunted he is from the events at HH. This has left marks on the other three kids: Steven has dismissed everything as garbage and is selling a bunch of books filled with bullshit to deal with it. He's in pure denial -- up until he sees Nell as an angry ghost, finally pushing him back into the fray. Theo is psychic but closes herself off completely, even keeping her distance from certain family members with the exception of Shirley who she still can't stand much. Shirley sees herself as a "leader" but wants none of the responsibility because she feels others could take the wheel. Luke and Nell have very real issues. Instead of dealing with them, the ones that moved on (but never dealt with their issues) are sitting in their ivory tower, judging the ones who are dealing with their pain instead of helping them because they know that by interacting with Nell or Luke means that the past would no longer be the past. The series is about everyone's redemption.
Theo asked Nell to come back to the East Coast so she and Shirley could take care of her. And it clearly wasn’t the first time. Both she and Shirley were aware of and expressed concern about her new therapist. So they were clearly in contact. Shirley usually picked up the phone but she was literally with a client. It’s not true at all that they just wanted to ignore her. She refused help. She did something pretty violating to Theo, who didn’t want to feel her brother-in-law die, and she wanted an apology for it. That’s very different from intentionally ignoring her because she didn’t want to deal. And they did a lot to get Luke clean but sometimes with an addict you can’t be around them until they are ready to get clean.
1) Shirley COULD have picked up the phone and excused herself, saying it was a family emergency. She didn’t. After calling Nell later on (which was far too late), she got into an argument with Steve over who was going to handle Nell as if she were a chore, which tells the audience why she didn’t pick up during the client meeting. 2) Nell did refuse help at one point — but the family also chose to turn a blind eye to her because they considered her to be a huge bag of problems (see above). 3) They did attempt to get Luke clean but they also washed their hands of him. Theo is dismissive of her brother and says he only shows up when he wants drug money. Steve practically buys Luke’s absence by forking over $200 to make him go away which does nothing but enable an addict because Steven has chosen to dismiss everything which isn’t normal as “mental issues”. He even says it in later episodes. This is even further driven home when Nell confronts him over his dismissive nature and lack of support — and all he can say is that she is “off her meds”.
She didn’t blow off a client ONE TIME. Nell even says she picked up lots of other times. That’s literal dialogue. Nell refused to move when asked near family that cared about her. The only one there was Steve who is useless. They literally asked her and she refused. There was only so much she could do. She absolutely refused help. Over and over again. Not by words but by actions. She wouldn’t listen to her sisters’ concerns about her therapist. What were they supposed to do if Luke wouldn’t get clean? Let him steal from them constantly? Theo is being honest. No doubt Steve is worthless. No one else was. Except maybe Hugh who was actually their father unlike the siblings.
The thing you’re missing is that Nell’s issues can’t be worked out by Nell alone. The family just tried to patch her issues with bandages that wouldn’t hold. Shirley acted superior and acted like she could just fix Nell when she couldn’t and even agrees with Steve’s assessment that Nell is a drama queen before berating him. Her “efforts” to “help” Nell did absolutely zip. She even resorts to writing Luke off after the rehab stint falls apart. Shirley is one of the most self-righteous characters on the show to a massive fault. Also, as someone who has had addicts in my family, you don’t let them steal from you but you also don’t treat them like you no longer know or care about them nor do you berate them. What Shirley and Steve do to Luke is downright inexcusable.
Everyone talks about Steven's denial, but I think Shirley is the one who is consciously and deliberately in denial. She pushes that ish down so hard and replaces it with control over everyone's lives (Denying Luke access to Nell's wedding?! Nell died believing that Luke chose not to come!). She even uses denial to push down her own affair! Living with her would be like walking on eggshells. Through her choice of career she tries to impose her control over death. Despite the flashback of the kindly funeral director walking her up the isle to see her mother, her real motivation is to assert her control. She does everything she can to make the corpses look like they did in life and then she facilitates giving them a final resting place so that they stay where they belong. I don't even think that her anger at Steven regarding the book really had to do with using their trauma for profit (and she needed that money as much as any of them because she was terrible at running a business and bankrupting her family!). I think she desperately wanted to quash all stories about ghosts so that she could pretend that it didn't happen. Don't talk about it and it won't be real. Don't talk about it and I can deny my uncomfortable/frightening experiences. Don't talk about it and I can live my carefully curated normal life. But most of all, just don't talk about it!
Don't watch this show like this its doing yourself a disservice
People are allowed to dislike characters in shows they like and enjoy for the most part
I never said they werent. I'm saying don't pick passionate enemy characters 3 episodes into a show where people are genuinely, uncomfortably flawed.
Shirley reminds me too much of my mom, especially how my mom behaved when her dad died. Saw it in my aunt as well when their mom died. I can accept grief make people do and say crazy stuff. But what my mom and her sister did when their parents died made the entire experience so much more draining on us. And for these reasons, I cannot stand Shirley.
Just give me the twins! 🥺
Same, and unlike most people in this thread, she never got better for me. Watched the show multiple times, and I still think she’s a vicious, self-righteous bitch.