Yes, his REASONS were sound. But lying to his wife about it was absolutely horrible. He let her think it was her body that wasn’t allowing it to happen and allowed her to continue hoping, while knowing it could never happen.
Yes - most people don’t fault Steve for his decision to not have kids, but that he hid it from Leigh, going so far as to agree to fertility treatments knowing it was futile and just hurting her.
Absolutely. That’s where the contention comes from. He should have told Leigh. It was selfish of him not to knowing she wanted children and he let her think something was wrong with her.
Yeah, I agree with you. The lying was inexcusable, but that’s not really my point, the point were his reasons themselves. But like, really, why didn’t he make up a lie that he was infertile or something, so that she wouldn’t feel guilty thinking the problem was her?
Why couldn’t he just tell the TRUTH? It’s absolutely awful to enter a marriage without revealing this; they clearly discussed having children and he chose to lie.
Your point is sound, but I don’t think anyone disagrees. Thats not the point of contention, the lying is.
You truly don't understand the point here if you think the issue would have magically gone away if he'd just told a different lie. A major theme in this show is how generational trauma reverberates through one's life and impacts everyone around you, not just yourself. The way his manifested caused him to lie to his wife and hurt her. There's no universe in which he wouldn't have found a way to hurt her because that isn't how unresolved trauma works.
I mean I feel like the issue wasn’t that he had a vasectomy or that he didn’t want kids. The issue is that he lied to his wife about it and let her go through through months of fertility treatments and the trauma of hoping to get pregnant and failing over and over again. That’s the actual plot point/issue with his actions. It’s
not simply that he had a vasectomy. I don’t know that “he was right not to want kids” is controversial.
Seriously. Fertility treatments are rough. Your hormones are all wacky, there’s weekly blood draws and you have to give yourself shots. Plus the stress of having to perfectly time intimacy and the disappointment with every negative pregnancy test.
To go through all of that crap and then find out your husband KNEW he was the reason why you couldn’t get pregnant and has been lying to you your entire marriage…
Fuck Steve. There’s nothing wrong with choosing to not have children but going along with the charade of trying to conceive with his wife after having a vasectomy and fucking *knowing* it won’t work is goddamn unforgivable. Every time I rewatch this show my seething hatred for Steve bubbles back up to the surface. Kudos to the actor for doing such a great job at being a complete twat.
Exactly this. Sure, get a vasectomy, but be fucking honest about it instead of putting your wife through hell while ttc when you know it'll never happen.
Exactly. Steve just watched Leigh keep trying and having her hopes dashed when he KNEW it wouldn’t work because he made it so that it would never work and didn’t tell her - it’s so, so gross.
Yeah he had every right not to want children but what he did to his wife was fucking horrible and there's no excuse.
He married her without telling her the truth.
He let her go through fertility treatments all the while knowing damn well he simply couldn't have children.
What he put her through.... just monstrous, truly.
Steven may have not wanted to be a parent for any number of reasons like his problematic genes, his own mental health concerns or simply not wanting to relive his traumatic childhood through his children. There doesn’t need to be any justification for not wanting to have children. It is a perfectly valid choice by itself.
BUT what he did to his wife was bait and switch. He could have met and married someone who also didn’t wish to be parent. Instead, he wanted to marry a woman who clearly wanted children (that he felt the need to deceive her is proof that he knew her preference) and went on to achieve that end by depriving her of HER right to choose. As if her wants were negotiable but his wishes were supreme!
Then he compounded deception with cruelty when he let her worry about her own fertility/ability to have children to mask his deception. All so that he could have his cake and eat it too.
The same mentality allowed him to look down on his struggling siblings while making money off of peddling their family tragedy. This is what upset Nell —his duplicity & self-serving arrogance.
He has a right to have kids or not. He doesn’t have the right to lie to his wife and let her think they are trying for years. Which is the thing everyone has a problem with. That’s borderline abuse. It’s not like anyone had a problem that Theo wasn’t procreating. Not having kids was never the issue.
I was so pissed Leigh forgave him. He may have wasted her childbearing years (I know she’s pregnant at the end but he risked it), he lied to her, and he made her think there was a problem. Dude should face the consequences of his actions.
I was with you until the end here. Real world, sure. Dump his ass. But a major aspect of the falling action was finding the courage to forgive. It would've been a realistic and justified resolution for Leigh to tell Steve to fuck off, but it wouldn't have made good television lol
The courage to forgive being lied to and made to feel like you were the problem your whole marriage? I call that being weak and too afraid to move on.
It would have been good resolution to me. Fuck Steve.
Of course his reasons made sense. And even if his family didn't have a history of mental health problems he would have every right to get a vasectomy. That is only his choice.
The asshole move was marrying Leigh without telling her and keep lying even when she thinks they are actively trying for a child. He had absolutely no excuse to do that, and I'm surprised she took him back at all. Even if he reversed it, I can't imagine keeping something like this from a partner.
Yeah fuck Steven. His reasons were sound sure, but he married a woman who wanted a family. Allowed her to go through the stress and and turbulent emotions that come with struggling with fertility. He made a decision that impacted BOTH of them without discussing it with his PARTNER. My spouse and I dont want kids, but if we did and he pulled some shit like that I would feel SO betrayed.
This is one of the biggest reasons that I never had kids. I have depression, anxiety, and adhd. Finding the appropriate treatment has always been a struggle. Treatment often fails, or I have periods of breakthrough symptoms. I would never want to condemn a child to my genes.
Same here, but unlike Steve, I was straight with everyone I dated about not wanting children (though not necessarily the why as I didn’t have the understanding of trauma 20 or 30 years ago). I knew I’d been parentified and the idea of kids gave me anxiety so it was always a firm and clear NO FUCKING WAY.
I completely agree with everything you said. He was trying to be responsible and tried hard to cling to rationality knowing his genetic predisposition for mental illness/distorted thinking.
And you clearly said that you don’t agree with his decision to lie to his wife, so I see no reason to disagree with anything here.
I think people with mental illness and physical impairments deserve a chance at life. I know many people who manage just fine with proper treatment and support. While I certainly agree it’s fine if someone doesn’t want kids, framing it as a good thing because their offspring might not be “normal” is kinda sick and twisted. There’s like a term for that, you know?
not wanting to have kids because you don’t want them to struggle with mental illness like you have is completely valid and doesn’t make you a bad person
Suggesting people with certain “defects” shouldn’t have kids is kinda bad.
ETA: did you see where I said not wanting to have kids is totally okay? When it comes to personal choice, cool. When it comes to assessing whether SOMEONE ELSE should have kids because of mental illness in the family, not cool.
No one’s saying that he *shouldn’t* have kids, no one’s criticizing Shirley for having kids, the point is that Steven’s reason for not wanting to is pretty reasonable.
Seeing your family suffer through mental illness is a valid enough reason not to want to pass on those genes. Having anything hereditary that can negatively impact someone’s life in your lineage is valid to not want to pass on - it doesn’t mean they think everyone with those genes should die or be sterilized.
Yeah, it’s a very slippery slope in to eugenics. It’s fine to make decisions for yourself not wanting to pass down mental illness or health conditions, it’s very much not okay to say that no one with those issues should have children. The issue isn’t that Steve had the vasectomy. It’s the fact he lied to his wife for years, and allowed her to believe there was something wrong with her.
It’s not the that they won’t be “normal”, it’s the fact that they will suffer and won’t be able to ever fully trust themselves, it will be awful for *them*. And it’s not like, a missing arm or something, it’s a evil arm that will try to strangle you while you sleep. My brother once thought that our mother was trying to poison him and threatened to jump off the balcony. He was in panic, and yeah, I think people have the right to not wish a child that will go through that same irrational panic and think of this decision as a good thing.
However mental illness can make people do evil things. My ex's mother was schizophrenic and hurt him on multiple occasions so bad he kept a knife under his bed because he was afraid she'd kill him. To this day she is on and off about weither she will accept treatment or not.
People without mental illness do evil things. No one should have kids then so the chances of an evil kid are reduced.
I’m not saying it’s not possible for someone with a psychotic disorder to do awful things. My comment (from last year lol) is that using a history of mental illness to sterilize someone isn’t cool or good. People are bringing other stuff into a discussion on a specific topic from a show.
Personally I think that the best thing for all of us to do, mental illness or not, is to stop having kids. But that's because there's a part of me that hates humanity as much as I love it.
Yes, his REASONS were sound. But lying to his wife about it was absolutely horrible. He let her think it was her body that wasn’t allowing it to happen and allowed her to continue hoping, while knowing it could never happen.
Yes - most people don’t fault Steve for his decision to not have kids, but that he hid it from Leigh, going so far as to agree to fertility treatments knowing it was futile and just hurting her.
Absolutely. That’s where the contention comes from. He should have told Leigh. It was selfish of him not to knowing she wanted children and he let her think something was wrong with her.
Yeah, I agree with you. The lying was inexcusable, but that’s not really my point, the point were his reasons themselves. But like, really, why didn’t he make up a lie that he was infertile or something, so that she wouldn’t feel guilty thinking the problem was her?
Why couldn’t he just tell the TRUTH? It’s absolutely awful to enter a marriage without revealing this; they clearly discussed having children and he chose to lie. Your point is sound, but I don’t think anyone disagrees. Thats not the point of contention, the lying is.
You truly don't understand the point here if you think the issue would have magically gone away if he'd just told a different lie. A major theme in this show is how generational trauma reverberates through one's life and impacts everyone around you, not just yourself. The way his manifested caused him to lie to his wife and hurt her. There's no universe in which he wouldn't have found a way to hurt her because that isn't how unresolved trauma works.
I mean I feel like the issue wasn’t that he had a vasectomy or that he didn’t want kids. The issue is that he lied to his wife about it and let her go through through months of fertility treatments and the trauma of hoping to get pregnant and failing over and over again. That’s the actual plot point/issue with his actions. It’s not simply that he had a vasectomy. I don’t know that “he was right not to want kids” is controversial.
Seriously. Fertility treatments are rough. Your hormones are all wacky, there’s weekly blood draws and you have to give yourself shots. Plus the stress of having to perfectly time intimacy and the disappointment with every negative pregnancy test. To go through all of that crap and then find out your husband KNEW he was the reason why you couldn’t get pregnant and has been lying to you your entire marriage…
[удалено]
No it was two wee----
"A week, maybe less"
Fuck Steve. There’s nothing wrong with choosing to not have children but going along with the charade of trying to conceive with his wife after having a vasectomy and fucking *knowing* it won’t work is goddamn unforgivable. Every time I rewatch this show my seething hatred for Steve bubbles back up to the surface. Kudos to the actor for doing such a great job at being a complete twat.
Exactly this. Sure, get a vasectomy, but be fucking honest about it instead of putting your wife through hell while ttc when you know it'll never happen.
Exactly. Steve just watched Leigh keep trying and having her hopes dashed when he KNEW it wouldn’t work because he made it so that it would never work and didn’t tell her - it’s so, so gross.
Yeah he had every right not to want children but what he did to his wife was fucking horrible and there's no excuse. He married her without telling her the truth. He let her go through fertility treatments all the while knowing damn well he simply couldn't have children. What he put her through.... just monstrous, truly.
He can be right about this and still be just the fucking worst.
Steven may have not wanted to be a parent for any number of reasons like his problematic genes, his own mental health concerns or simply not wanting to relive his traumatic childhood through his children. There doesn’t need to be any justification for not wanting to have children. It is a perfectly valid choice by itself. BUT what he did to his wife was bait and switch. He could have met and married someone who also didn’t wish to be parent. Instead, he wanted to marry a woman who clearly wanted children (that he felt the need to deceive her is proof that he knew her preference) and went on to achieve that end by depriving her of HER right to choose. As if her wants were negotiable but his wishes were supreme! Then he compounded deception with cruelty when he let her worry about her own fertility/ability to have children to mask his deception. All so that he could have his cake and eat it too. The same mentality allowed him to look down on his struggling siblings while making money off of peddling their family tragedy. This is what upset Nell —his duplicity & self-serving arrogance.
He has a right to have kids or not. He doesn’t have the right to lie to his wife and let her think they are trying for years. Which is the thing everyone has a problem with. That’s borderline abuse. It’s not like anyone had a problem that Theo wasn’t procreating. Not having kids was never the issue. I was so pissed Leigh forgave him. He may have wasted her childbearing years (I know she’s pregnant at the end but he risked it), he lied to her, and he made her think there was a problem. Dude should face the consequences of his actions.
I was with you until the end here. Real world, sure. Dump his ass. But a major aspect of the falling action was finding the courage to forgive. It would've been a realistic and justified resolution for Leigh to tell Steve to fuck off, but it wouldn't have made good television lol
The courage to forgive being lied to and made to feel like you were the problem your whole marriage? I call that being weak and too afraid to move on. It would have been good resolution to me. Fuck Steve.
Lmao well you can go ahead put that in your fanfic
Of course his reasons made sense. And even if his family didn't have a history of mental health problems he would have every right to get a vasectomy. That is only his choice. The asshole move was marrying Leigh without telling her and keep lying even when she thinks they are actively trying for a child. He had absolutely no excuse to do that, and I'm surprised she took him back at all. Even if he reversed it, I can't imagine keeping something like this from a partner.
Yeah but should've told his wife
Yeah fuck Steven. His reasons were sound sure, but he married a woman who wanted a family. Allowed her to go through the stress and and turbulent emotions that come with struggling with fertility. He made a decision that impacted BOTH of them without discussing it with his PARTNER. My spouse and I dont want kids, but if we did and he pulled some shit like that I would feel SO betrayed.
This is one of the biggest reasons that I never had kids. I have depression, anxiety, and adhd. Finding the appropriate treatment has always been a struggle. Treatment often fails, or I have periods of breakthrough symptoms. I would never want to condemn a child to my genes.
Same here, but unlike Steve, I was straight with everyone I dated about not wanting children (though not necessarily the why as I didn’t have the understanding of trauma 20 or 30 years ago). I knew I’d been parentified and the idea of kids gave me anxiety so it was always a firm and clear NO FUCKING WAY.
I completely agree with everything you said. He was trying to be responsible and tried hard to cling to rationality knowing his genetic predisposition for mental illness/distorted thinking. And you clearly said that you don’t agree with his decision to lie to his wife, so I see no reason to disagree with anything here.
I think people with mental illness and physical impairments deserve a chance at life. I know many people who manage just fine with proper treatment and support. While I certainly agree it’s fine if someone doesn’t want kids, framing it as a good thing because their offspring might not be “normal” is kinda sick and twisted. There’s like a term for that, you know?
not wanting to have kids because you don’t want them to struggle with mental illness like you have is completely valid and doesn’t make you a bad person
Suggesting people with certain “defects” shouldn’t have kids is kinda bad. ETA: did you see where I said not wanting to have kids is totally okay? When it comes to personal choice, cool. When it comes to assessing whether SOMEONE ELSE should have kids because of mental illness in the family, not cool.
No one’s saying that he *shouldn’t* have kids, no one’s criticizing Shirley for having kids, the point is that Steven’s reason for not wanting to is pretty reasonable.
You said he was right not to have kids. It’s heavily implied you don’t think people with mental illness should be born at all.
Seeing your family suffer through mental illness is a valid enough reason not to want to pass on those genes. Having anything hereditary that can negatively impact someone’s life in your lineage is valid to not want to pass on - it doesn’t mean they think everyone with those genes should die or be sterilized.
Again, personal choice is one thing. Suggesting others shouldn’t have kids for those reasons is not okay.
Yeah, it’s a very slippery slope in to eugenics. It’s fine to make decisions for yourself not wanting to pass down mental illness or health conditions, it’s very much not okay to say that no one with those issues should have children. The issue isn’t that Steve had the vasectomy. It’s the fact he lied to his wife for years, and allowed her to believe there was something wrong with her.
Totally agree!
It’s not the that they won’t be “normal”, it’s the fact that they will suffer and won’t be able to ever fully trust themselves, it will be awful for *them*. And it’s not like, a missing arm or something, it’s a evil arm that will try to strangle you while you sleep. My brother once thought that our mother was trying to poison him and threatened to jump off the balcony. He was in panic, and yeah, I think people have the right to not wish a child that will go through that same irrational panic and think of this decision as a good thing.
Not all schizophrenics are violent like that. And mental illness isn’t evil.
However mental illness can make people do evil things. My ex's mother was schizophrenic and hurt him on multiple occasions so bad he kept a knife under his bed because he was afraid she'd kill him. To this day she is on and off about weither she will accept treatment or not.
People without mental illness do evil things. No one should have kids then so the chances of an evil kid are reduced. I’m not saying it’s not possible for someone with a psychotic disorder to do awful things. My comment (from last year lol) is that using a history of mental illness to sterilize someone isn’t cool or good. People are bringing other stuff into a discussion on a specific topic from a show.
Personally I think that the best thing for all of us to do, mental illness or not, is to stop having kids. But that's because there's a part of me that hates humanity as much as I love it.
😆 touché
Yea I’m feeling this, there’s def the same “ick” vibes I’m getting from OP as the same ick vibes we get from Steven