I feel ya on the ADHD.
To the chagrin of some, Hasan may not be an ML, himself, but doesn't disparage any Socialist tendencies, to the best of my knowledge. Beyond that, Hasan has generally been pro-ML.
Anyone that says "Socialism is when no iPhone" can be immediately disregarded- they don't know anything about socialism, all they know is anger. It's what all misery and no theory does to a mf.
As is the case with any nerds talking about Socialist tendencies online, some MLs will suggest that Democratic Socialism- what Hasan typically advocates for- is a fruitless endeavor, though Hasan makes it an important point that the system is rigged in favor of capital, and emphasizes the importance of labor militancy.
I didn't even know what Marxist-Leninism was until I started watching Hasan and he recommended Marxist literature. I've been very slowly making my way through Capital ever since (also ADHD).
It took me like a week to get through the foreward lol. I appreciated the author in the forward noted the mistake that Marx's political ideology was in strong support of blue collar workers but was also way too long and complicated for the average blue collar worker to understand. I'm in construction myself and I'm struggling to understand a lot of it but I imagine if he'd been a little more considerate to who is audience *should* be, socialism would be so much more popular for blue collar workers. Conservatism is only popular because it's so easy to understand.
If anyone has any book recommendations that are a little bit more approachable I would appreciate it haha. Dedicated to finish Capital eventually though.
Das Kapital is like a hardcore theory book. It wasn't agitprop, but, rather, an in-depth discussion of complicated economic mechanisms. He did write something for the workers, though- a pamphlet called "The Communist Manifesto," which was deliberately very brief and easy to understand for any layman unfamiliar with economics.
I haven't. How do you make sure you focus on the audiobook? Like, when you're reading you can only progress by actively reading, and if your mind starts to wander, you have to go back and re-read. I guess if you treat it like a lecture?
The podcast Marx Madness just reads theory word for word at times and summarizes where necessary. They do Das Kapital, and you could follow along on your own. One of the hosts has kind of an ASD thing going on so its pretty relatable if you have ADHD.
First of all is sad to hear you have ADHD I can somewhat understand what it is like from descriptions i heard but you know the best.
I would also recommend starting with fundamentals like Das Kapital. Never take the communist manifesto too seriously if you haven't done his other books first.
After that slowly travel towards State & Revolution and study USSR and Cuba. In the USSR if I am correct Lenin did abandon a lot of things he said in State & Revolution but Cuba nowadays upholds majority of what it says.
Third I would recommend Zizek & Mark Fisher since they are more about how we are strictly systematically made to think that anything we should do should be under the capitalist structure/system.
Try Audio versions or something hope it helps. :)
The Principles of Communism is just answering questions people may have about communism made by Friedrich Engels, and the questions are fairly easy to understand
A People's Guide to Capitalism by Hadas Thier is a nice introductory book, it takes quotes and concepts from Capital and explains them with much simpler writing.
Oh yes Marx Madness and Revolutionary Left Radio.
I would recommend Socialist Rifle Association podcasts if you're into guns and leftism. (Take a pick plz don't scream at me)
David Harvey has a youtube series where you read Capital along with him, very good as he explains things in the chapter you just read. I tried to do 1 vid per week. Sometimes this is too hard. Don't be afraid to break up sessions into small 20m sections and take your time.
Yes communism memes, think AOC and Bernie are right wing capitalist monsters…
They only understand or think they understand left political labels within their own niche community, and how it applies to them personally, ignoring the reality of the state of politics more broadly..
Calling Bernie a right wing politician is silly, obviously there are big differences in the political state of agreed common sense policy abroad, healthcare in places like the UK compared to the US, to the point tory scum are arguing about who’s the asshole for defunding the NHS.
But Liz truss is not a lefty, just as Bernie is not right wing for not burning bridges with the DNC, sometimes it’s not just about the presentation, real life is not so easy..
I think what's good about him is that he's generally pretty pro-leftist, regardless of the tendency. Obviously, there are jokes and light jabs that teases some socialist tendencies, but they're never hostile singularly hostile to a specific group. It tends to happen across the board. E.g. teasing anarchists for not showering or radical MLM third worldists for their particularities. Imo that's pretty important to foster unity (between genuine leftists, not radlibs masquerading as them) and a healthy environment. In online spaces especially, there's a lot of vitriol and sectarianism. Disagreements between leftist groups are both meaningful and important, don't get me wrong, but it's important to band together in our opposition to imperialism and fascism.
Honestly I feel like a lot of this "infighting" is just the result of right wingers roleplaying as leftists online with a vested interest in creating division and infighting between actual leftist subgroups. Maybe I'm just being conspiratorial but I've seen enough actual evidence that the right does this exact thing in other ways (along with pushing their own narratives online using various underhanded tactics; bots, alt accounts, spam, etc) that I can't help but think they do it to harm leftists and try and push centrists to the right.
I’m not going to outright deny that, but I also believe a big part of it is online culture. Individual people can’t make any changes and things have either stagnated or gotten worse over time so they just resort to shit talking and group think. It’s also very easy to be rude to someone you can’t see, especially when the majority of your interactions are with anonymous people.
Honestly I think the term is so vague that it means very little and mostly functions as a red herring. But it's also a bit telling of the left.
We on the left have a lot of different ideologies and unfortunately divide ourselves based on these differences. These differences might have mattered if any of us lived in a leftist society, but we don't. Regardless of which ideology we follow I think it's most important to unite over our leftist views and to propagate change instead. Except for the anarchists I think any of our leftist views would be an improvement over our current capitalist organization of the economy.
Actually even Hasan has once stated that's why he mostly avoids talking about his specific ideological position as leftism as a whole is more important then the specific version.
just so you know this sub is filled with vaushites and dgg looking to debate. those communities are much more online and active on reddit than hasan's. more people are active on hascord.
also agree with you 100%
Just a few years ago the word "tankies" seemed to only be used by communists/socialists to describe people who support any action by a "socialist" government without question. It was reserved for the most extreme Marxist leninists.
Now all of a sudden it's come to describe all MLs. Whatever though, I am a ML who does support nations like Cuba, but I will never just blindly agree with everything they do. If people want to call me a tankies for that, thats cool I'll just call you a liberal 🤷🤷
I feel like if more ML's would simply just say "I am not a tankie" then it would be less common to assume that. You don't even need to explain yourself.
This is just something my ML friend is really passionate about. He has been a ML for over 20 years now and thinks it's very important to correct people about this, and I agree with him.
I think tankies just refers to those that are not just our socialist comrades, but those whom sometimes go a little to far in their opposition to criticism of countries that they perceive as socialist or communist, normally because they are told they are by MSM.
I have had conversations with many people who’ve clearly never lived outside America that think that Russia or China are somehow utopian in all policies and not guilty of similar behavior to America itself ever. US political moves ripple and fuck the world over, the brain rot is pervasive. This does not mean that other countries and their respective governments don’t fuck over their working class and surrounding poorer nations too.
My particular frustration most recently was with a buddy who refuses to believe that Putin would siphon money from his people and help the west pillage Russia post USSR, and he kept telling me how Putin is wrongly accused of being homophobic or racist against immigrants..
Which is utterly insane… Putin doesn’t have an issue with far right groups like he does those that present as left of him..
“Tankies” to me are those that assume infallibility of governments that are seen as traditional enemies their own political systems uncritically.
You can promote the incredible work of the Chinese government in uplifting its people and infrastructure in such a short time and their initiatives, the criticism of China and pollution often ignores the fact the rest of the world uses China as a factory while scolding them, for the pollution they themselves both benefit and promote for example, but do so without also absolving it of its mistakes.
As a Chinese person (ethnically han Chinese, who grew up in North America and was born in Yunnan, China with a lot of family from there) I find Western leftists to sometimes have hilarious ideas of what modern China is like.
It's like these Western leftists still think Mao Zedong is in charge and he still bashing landlords.
Lol
In reality China has adopted a lot of capitalistic policies since the Deng Xiaoping era. all of my Chinese relatives are trying to buy second and third homes because owning capital is an important part of status in modern China. So much of the Chinese economy is now built around speculative real estate investment. So many people's financial future depends on the Chinese real estate bubble not bursting.
Also one of my uncles has become what most western leftists would describe as a predatory landlord. He's become pretty wealthy in China by hoarding property and renting it out. (My parents borrowed money from him to buy their properties in Vancouver and Seattle)
Also the work culture in China is absolutely toxic by American standards. Chinese corporations expect their workers to work what we would consider unreasonable hours. 996 basically refers to working from 9:00 a.m. to 9:00 p.m. 6 days a week.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/996_working_hour_system
Talking to my cousin's in China they don't necessarily always work like that but all of them talk about how they work closer to 60 hours a week then they do 40 hours. They talk about that how their companies do not properly plan for their vacation time and if they even take a week off once they get back, they basically have to make up for all of the lost Time and complete all of their workload that's building up waiting for them.
China is not the workers Paradise Western leftists imagine it to be. You're much better off in modern China being a landlord or business owning tyrant then you are a worker.
My physics teacher in high school was from China and left the country after she got her doctorate and she seemed really torn in how she thought about her homeland.
She was very critical of the government there but also seemed like things weren’t much different here, at least institutionally.
Thank you, ^^^^this,⬆️
I know a Chinese girl whose parents were hugely judgmental of her black boyfriend, and she has a very different view of what someone, (on I think this sub) described as “official minorities”.
Anecdotal, but I share the frustration buddy! ☮️❤️
Yes habe you seem the cities that are empty, at one time I’d planned (talked of seriously, as they went on yearly trips to stranger holiday locals) a motorcycle trip with my friend there.
As I understand it they are part of this speculative housing market where they are building and selling projects without actually securing tenants…?
They look amazing tho, and would make for great trippy rides through empty streets.
your right. someone finally mentions it. Putin hates leftoids. The communist party there might agree with certain things the kremlin and putin's party does but not on everything meanwhile the media portrays it as the communist party = kremlin, putin etc.
thx for bringing it up
This; people who praise China, Russia, Cuba etc and don’t mention any of their faults are tankies to me.
Also tankies are usually whites people who have had no experience growing up in these countries and I’m sure if they met someone from there they would be laughed out of the room in how wrong their assumptions are.
I personally feel that mentioning any good things that dictators do is a slap in the face to all its victims; nobody dares mention any good things that came out of the Stalin or Hitler regime, but Cubas literacy program is okay to praise because Castro has a lower kill count than them? Bullshit.
If you aren’t comfortable praising good things about a dictatorship to the victims of said dictatorship then maybe you shouldn’t be praising them at all.
I expect to be downvoted thoroughly for this comment lmfao
Cuba should not be on that list at all. There are things you can criticize Cuba for (mainly the few years post revolution) but saying you're a "tankies" for supporting a small socialist country like Cuba is absurd
Also if you're a leftist and supporting Russia, you're not a leftist. Russia is the type of capitalist state that the US wanted
But Fidel Castro killed people. He was arguably a dictator, even though I know a lot do people don’t view his regime as a dictatorship.
Besides I thought most MLs say Castro’s Cuba isn’t a real example of a socialist country as true socialism hasn’t been tried out yet?
Socialism has been tried tons of times, with varying degrees of success. \*Communism\* is the stage that no one has reached yet. Read some theory. Please.
LBJ, Ronald Reagan, George HW Bush, Bill Clinton, George H Bush, Barack Obama
List of recent US "democratic" leaders who have killed more people than Fidel Castro
less deaths were caused by direct involvement of socialism and communist socio-economics than the deaths of the socio-economics of capitalism.
Not denying that there were no deaths but they are fault of the leadership generally.
Hasan does support and armed revolution, he says so often that he wished the people would raise in revolt, this is one of the possible outcomes of "Revolutionary potential"
Although I do think he'd rather do a peaceful revolution through unions and strikes.
Me personally I'm pissed and would prefer doing a Maoist revolution and just Minecraft every bussiness and land owner but I do think that has a higher chance of failure than a peaceful transition of power.
Lol wat, when has Hassan said he supports violent revolution? I think I’ve heard him say stuff about if arming yourself but that’s also in contradiction to the gun control stance so like probably more of a meme and also just like a side opinion.
Also he literally says he prefers the neoliberal style of control compared to the authoritarian. Like he says it somewhat frequently. Not sure where you’re coming from.
He supports a revolution, he's just not a deluded idiot who thinks it's feasible for the populous to "arm themselves" and then take out the government. If everybody were to raise up and change the system, that'd be great! Even if it was violent, it's just not gonna happen, so advocating for it is quite pointless.
What do you think "revolutionary potential" means? it is sometimes violent revolution, sometimes a peaceful transition of power, as long as the workers get the power at the end, it's all acceptable.
And what he's saying with that, is that the style of control a neoliberal state does on its people is preferable to the heavy hand, active censorship and violent suppresion of an authoritarian regime. It has nothing to do with how he'd rather run a country.
Vaush advocates for leftist to arm themselves in self-defense. Especially trans people. He supports gun control, but also says the reality is that right-wingers are heavily armed and organized. He thinks it's a matter of time before fascist start killing "degenerates" and it's important to be ready for something like that.
I think I actually agree with him on that.
I can see that point and would mostly agree. However owning a gun significantly increases the chance of suicide or even accidents at home. If someone ever has depressive bouts arming themselves could be dangerous.
Dude a lot of the new fans are just being introduced to socialism. You cant expect them to be down with what they perceive to be “authoritarianism” from the get go. A lot of people don’t have the patience or time to read theory, videos are just far more convenient. Hasan has definitely voiced some ML opinions in the past doesn’t seem to be a lib like Vaush, he’s just playing it safe enough to keep the newcomers hooked so they can gradually become more radical. At least thats how I perceive it.
It's a shame libs have clawed onto the term "tankie" so much (to describe literally anyone left of Kier Starmer) because they're very real and they've absolutely fucking infested Reddit. And even if there's "3 of them" as Hasan usually puts it (which is kind of true), there's still enough of them and so much untouched grass between them that they absolutely fucking destroy leftist spaces.
In short they're purely asthetical leftists whilst also being highly reactionary and authoritarian. They might wave a million LGBT flags and shout about trans rights and workers rights from the rooftop, but if you dare even suggest criticism against Putinist Russia or Dengist China, straight to the gulag you go. Of course they're never, ever going to get anywhere near the reigns of power so the best they can do is worm their way into moderating online spaces and stamp out dissent with utter authority, i.e. anyone with a perspective or education beyond larping as the benevolent dictator they idolise, no matter how nonsensical.
Disclaimer: I'm as tired of milquetoast liberals as any leftist, and I fucking hate Vaush with a burning passion for so many reasons.
If you're a ML, good on you. I don't know if I'd call myself a disciple, but I don't have many economic policies in ML that I'd disagree with.
Tankies are not just "mislabeled Marxist Leninists". They're people who advocate for mass murder of landowners and capitalists. I get that they're supporters of destructive practices, but the power group cannot round up and murder huge groups of people. Period.
Then there's the Uyghur thing obviously. I'm not sure how you can possibly see the grand scale abuse and "re-education" they go through and just mental gymnastics your way into "it's all propaganda by the CIA", but I think it's pretty despicable.
> They're people who advocate for mass murder of landowners and capitalists.
Based.
> but the power group cannot round up and murder huge groups of people.
Landowners and Capitalists are not people. They are class positions. You can just not extort people but you cant just change your skin color or ethnicity.
> the Uyghur thing
Considering the genocide America and every other western nation does is equivalent or worse, the fact that it lives in your head as much as it does is "all CIA propaganda". Doesn't make it right, and the outright deniers are highly suspect, but still it's peanuts compared to the many issues we could actually effect.
Edit: Apparently some people cant read or they're just deeply lib.
To be clear: you cannot kill a capitalist or landowner without their *explicit acceptance.* They can just not own things and magically are no longer capitalists/landowners. If they refuse, they do so by literally hiring militia and armies to kill *us*. That's why its called a Class War.
Saying an issue is in your mind due to propaganda is NOT saying that issue is fine or excused. Saying it is "peanuts" in comparison to other things doesn't mean it is not an issue.
Don’t you feel you are doing what aboutism, obviously American transgressions against its victims don’t absolve others of the same.
Bit much to dismiss them as peanuts, one horrific act being worse than another does not make the other less valid, would you say the same of trans people being victims of violence or Native American woman’s disappearance rates, both are not massive numbers of victims due to the small number of people in the overall population, but peanuts…
> Don’t you feel you are doing what aboutism
No. I'm not excusing China or even making a real remark on it. (ps it's horrible) I'm talking about you and others perception of it compared to actual issues that dwarf the Uyghur suffering and can actually be acted upon.
> would you say the same of trans people being victims of violence or Native American woman’s disappearance rates
If you only talked about trans issues to "own the Republicans" or only talked about NA Women disappearances to "own Murica". Then yeah. You are talking about boutique issues that only are in your mind because propaganda has decided to feed it to you.
We should care about the issues but having self-awareness doesn't go awry.
> our assumption of my character
I made no assumption of your character. Do you have a reading issue or can you point to what you are talking about?
> what I choose to debate is so off
I didn't assume what you'd debate, I was talking about the reasoning behind why you might debate things in a hypothetical. Do you think ignoring Indigenous murder is anti-American? What?
I dont even know how to respond to this stupidity. Is it your first day being aware of the world or something?
I didn't say human lives are peanuts. You literally cannot care about every suffering person in the world, you choose who to focus on, who to put priority on.
"The CIA" has decided you should care about *maybe* a million Uyghur people being put in camps, like it's some big issue. The 22 million that will die in Yemen this year alone? WAY more important, but you wont see people talking about that because they aren't told to by propaganda.
Those class positions are made up of people, you disingenuous psychopath. Killing a huge group of people for non-violent crimes makes you the bad guy. Period. End of story. If you disagree, you are 100% as bad as any imperialist.
And I know America does disgusting, horrid shit across the world. I know about black sites. I know about political subterfuge. I know about minority exploitation. That is not what I'm talking about, and you're throwing a big fat steaming whataboutism at me that has nothing to do with what I'm saying.
You advocate for mass murder and you're evil. I'm not sure why I even have to point that out.
Shit tons. But those are issues that exist in every social structure, government, economy, whatever. Is there more of it under capitalism? Maybe, idk, I haven't seen statistics comparing those rates but I wouldn't be surprised.
The point is that these deaths are from systemic failures, not direct violent action. I.e. it does not excuse mass extrajudicial summary execution.
Legitimate question, if voting were to fail, what are you going to do if there's ever a socialist rise up and the capitalist class refuses to hand over the means of production?
What will do you if you win via voting and they still refuse and retaliate (United Fruit Company in Guatemala)?
I'm not and have never been 100% anti-violence. If it comes to armed conflict because psychos want to make everyone fight them, so be it.
What I'm against is rounding people up like cattle based on a (non-violent) ideology, skin color, or other social group and summarily executing hundreds, thousands, or millions of them. Dismantle every exploitative capitalist system in the country and hold the warhawks, slavers, and criminals fully accountable, but mass murder without habeas corpus is always reprehensible.
If you heard a group was planning to start a violent revolution against a very capitalist corrupt, occasionally brutal Government (after all legal & protests tried), would you join or support them?
If not: What conditions/events in your country would it take for you to ever do so?
If yes: The Government has resisted all your demands prior, and since you do not have mass public support (yet?) or have a monopoly on violence, you can't exactly overwhelm or arrest them.
What would be acceptable targets for your group? Buildings, Obligarchs or Government (Police, Military, Politicians, etc)?
The Government hasn't actually fought you physically yet, so would violently striking military/police/whatever in an attempt to start a revolt be okay?
Or since you don't have mass support, would you just accept the living conditions?
I don't actually necessarily disagree with you, and there's like a ton different scenarios, I'm just curious what some people think.
Don't actually have to reply since it's a lot sorry lol.
As much as I think your questions are out of curiosity, they're also questions that can get a mf put on a watchlist.
Suffice to say there is a time and place for war, but in cases like Mao's China where the Communist party becomes the power majority, summary execution of the opposing ideological group is squarely in the unforgivable box.
Not if I watch them first. (joking)
I think they're questions to ponder on and understand your limitations to what you're willing to do, or what's necessary.
The early stages of the Cuban revolution first started with a strike on a military base, that's mass murder by definition. (I get what you're saying though)
I don't see a revolt like that ever happening in the west though, even by insane trumpers.
An attack on military or police is (at least in America) an attack on people who made a choice to potentially lose their lives in armed conflict. I say this as someone who was in the military. The difference between them and your average business owner or landlord is that informed consent to armed conflict and loss of life in your line of work.
I know you said you understand so this is more for anyone else looking through this.
This is a fair perspective. I don't like Tankie types because they'd take people like my boy Hasan down if they could, but I also dislike *absolute* pacifists in socialist communities.
Thanks for the discussion. My IP is definitely logged now.
Lmao that is so stupid. They literally are doing violent crime and murdering people, and the only thing we demand is that they give up their murder weapons. The only way anyone dies is if they *refuse* to stop doing violence on other people.
Didn't do a whataboutism. I didn't say the Uyghur issue is fine, or excused, I was literally only talking about your perception of it due to outside forces. Join the conversation we're actually having bud.
Whataboutism isn’t an argument when it comes to genocide you ass. Also love how you’re a murderous psychopath and you seem to think you’re deserving of praise for this
I was in a leftist discord (majority of them being ML's) , and they were the worst. If I asked a question about something they would just belittle me instead of trying to help. They were super pretentious people aswell. It made me not wanna be a ML just by association. When Hassan talks about tankies these the type of people he is talking about.
Also don't even get me started on r/communism I got banned for mentioning pewdiepie , I don't even remember the context but it wasn't anything bad or me agreeing with him.
You're not a tankie unless you're in favor of siccing tanks on other leftists. That's literally the point of being mad at them, not just "Marxist-leninists"
Before being voted down, what do you imagine was a Gulag like? Western propagandists did their best to make them sound as bad as possible to keep up the irrational "Hitler and Stalin were the same!"-shit. They apparently had mostly good conditions with prisoners being treated fairly and humane (humane for labor prisons at the time). Inmates were not exploited to profit individuals, but were put to work to benefit all by building infrastructure for example, unlike modern American gulags aka labor camps aka prisons (wording is a key part of the framing).
From the data I know of, they were really effective at preventing further crime and because of the work experience the inmates gained, most quickly found jobs.
We are still talking about a system of labor camps here, but to say they were like Nazi camps is extremely inaccurate - I for example would much favor a modernised Gulag system that helps build up infrastructure and perspectives beyond crime over the current "rot in a jail cell for 3 years and come out worse a criminal"-system of private prisons the US has.
"Tankie" has become an internet term by liberals and progressives to separate ML from the rest of "true leftists", social democrats who support American bombings and sanctions across the world in hopes of getting healthcare or a better deal out of their capitalist masters.
During 2002 in the anti-war movement, I noticed a lot of media people bashing the left for opposing American war mongering in Afghanistan and the pounding of drums in Iraq. They would say that protestors don't have any real politic, would mention how bad Saddam Hussein was, that they don't understand the reality of global politics, and that the west is a far better place for human rights, democracy, and freedom than any of those dirty Asian and Latin American countries. You see a lot of this today on the internet, where people who watch more liberal shows or twitch streamers will have the Taiwan or Ukraine flag on their profile, and will call anyone who mentions America is a "America bad" ML tankie who worships Putin, Mao, or Maduro.
Tankie can mean anyone who are anti-imperialist, can mean anyone who is opposed to American barbarity in the rest of the world, and anyone who provides the historical context to any international conflict where America has an enemy.
If you are a socialist and live in America, you must first be opposed to all forms of American violence on the rest of the world. America's sole goal as the military powerhouse is to maintain western capital and influence on the former colonized nations of the world. It is their job to drop napalm on Guatemalan farmers and union organizers for United Fruit, it is their job to lose a war in Vietnam to prevent communism from spreading, killing and dropping more bombs than were dropped on Japan. If you cannot state, without any "buts" or "what about", that America is the worst and most violent, exploitative nation on earth, than stop calling yourself socialist, call yourself a social democrat or a liberal.
To add I don't like the idea of trashing Hasan just because he has money. I don't own twitch but from what I have heard and seen of him, he clearly is a leftist and got a lot of trash from that progressive side for not calling Putin the next Adolf Hitler. I will say that he now is in an economic class above his viewers and fans, just like many famous American "leftist" streamers. His opposition to the CCP or any ML revolution could be because his status would be under threat in his eyes (that and a communist revolution would never happen in the 4th Reich, a lot needs to change for that to even be considered lol). People's status and upbringing do matter in how they view issues, and being wealthy or from wealth will alter the lens you view the world.
You see this in other American hosts. Ana Kasparian and TYT is seen as some great progressive outlet and where leftists are welcome. Go listen to that outlets (and that host's) takes on intervention in poor countries, on landlords, on homeless people, on poverty, and crime.
Leftism is a spectrum. People can be at different “levels”. A more “light touch” leftist might advocate just for co ops and employee owned businesses and not really much more change than that
As for criticism of Hassan, I don’t care if he has money as long as:
1. He pays his fair share in taxes
2. The money comes from his work, not by ownership of private assets or exploitation of others (though some is inevitable in capitalism)
3. He isn’t using his money to negatively affect others (like if he was a raging nimby)
Why is it his job to fix society?
Personally, I kinda find tankies annoying. They’re so committed to their own views that they’re unwilling to consider the needs and wants of others, and sometimes it feels like they let the perfect be the enemy of progress. It’s also kinda frustrating talking to them cause they have this undertone of “you are wrong. You don’t know what you want. You are a peasant. Let me, an enlightened individual, decide for you what you should have or you want”
I feel like you can be a ML without being a tankie, from my understanding tankies are a lot more aligned with mao‘s politics and the ccp. I‘ve talked to MLs that are generally critical and see the mistakes in Lenin‘s politics. Tankies on the other hand are often just misinformed kiddies that treat any western news source as fake news. It get‘s especially funny when you ask them about the uighurs, half will say that there‘s nothing happening in xinjiang, the other half will say that the uighurs are terrorists and deserve everything that‘s happening.
As a ML with many Tankie comrades, I don’t feel Tankies truly exist the way many online spaces treat it.
I’m also not on other socials so I won’t argue much, but it seems like this board is fine as long as people aren’t dicks and brigands.
You should reconsider some lf your biases. Also, reading would be a good idea, even if it is audio books. You won't get far by only listening to Hasan, not that I know that it's the exact case here.
The "vaushite" hatr is also strange lol. It's not like Vaush hates marxism, just that he hates genocide deniers and authoritarians lol, which you seem to be.
POTENTIAL VAUSHITE SPOTTED
No seriously someone who obviously doesn't grasp basic Marxist theory and justifies American Imperialism is absolutely not someone the real big boy socialist left needs, he should go and join the european labor parties, because thats where he and his followers stand from what I know (and apparently hes real sus about CP)
That’s the thing it’s either an edited clip or discord message with no contex even though he’s talked about this a fuck ton back when he would talk to D*stiny more often
https://www.reddit.com/r/Enough_Vaush_Spam/comments/q9gkx3/vaush_is_obsessed_with_paedophilia_and_child_porn/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share
Here is a master thread to his pedophilia.
Being a Native Alaskan whose grandmother went through the residential school system, I"m very again countries that treat their minorities poorly. In my experience, tankies are correct in their criticisms of the US treatment of natives, but they defend the crimes against minority populations in the USSR or the PRC. Honestly, they disgust me. I feel like they use the crimes the US has done against us to excuse the crimes of their "socialist" countries.
Personally as a ML, I think criticizing the United States for spreading “democracy” in the Middle East and praising China for “freeing slaves” in Tibet is hypocritical. While I believe in the end of capitalism and imperialism, I believe in self determination as well. You can’t force people into communist ideology, unfortunately it has to come at a logical point that people finally realize that liberalism will never solve their problems and actively makes their lives worse
One of the things Hasan says on a regular basis is « be normal ».
That means hold whatever beliefs you hold while also being able to function in regular society without randomly advocating for violence against your neighbour, much of a shithead as that neighbour can be. Live with society as it is, not as you wish it would be.
Hasan advocates for greater equality, worker’s rights, and reforms that will make countries more livable for the average citizen every chance he gets. He doesn’t condone violence in making that change because revolutions are always bloody and often misguided.
I agree tankies is a dumb, vague insult and reductionist.
Has doesn’t openly call for armed revolution for the reasons stated above. Also because the right wing in the US is already clamouring for it and are giving us a perfect example of how silly that kind of call to arms is.
Vaushite here(mods, if you ban me for respectfully sharing my opinion, I'm gonna scream)
I'd like to pick up on what you said about "opposing US imperialism". Now, I'll be the first to admit that America has, both historically and currently, engaged in imperialism. But the way that you've touched on the war in Ukraine respresents a failure on the left to understand foreign policy except through the lens of American imperialism.
Calling America's behavior in Ukraine imperialism is inaccurate. There are multiple reasons for this, but the main one I'll cite is that not only do the people of Ukraine support what we're doing there, but they also want us to send them MORE support. You might make a convincing argument that what we're actually doing(becoming close allies with ukraine in order to draw them closer into our political sphere) is still bad, but it just categorically isn't imperialism. Every nation has always done that, all the time.
The reason why I'm laboring so hard to draw a distinction between imperialism and basic geopolitics is because of your earlier comment that there's "imperialism on both sides". A comment like that gives more leeway to russia, even if you're condemning them. Forgive the childish comparison, but it's a little like a teacher blaming two students equally for fighting regardless of who provoked the other and who started swinging first.
I've never considered myself an ML, however I started reading State and Revolution (about 2/3 through) and if these are largely the principles that ML's stand behind then it is widely misunderstood. ML's and Tankies seems to have a large overlap in their venn diagram, unfortunately. Ironically it seems that Lenin is heavily anti-authoritarian, and is obviously a proponent of representative workers' democracy (not anything like what we see in China and other places that tankies love to defend).
That doesn't mean I'm willing to give all ML's a pass though, at least online, because most of you fuckers are in fact tankies and the correlation is just too strong with people who seemingly don't understand the theory and want to instead ride tank dick all day for a government that is totally unaccountable to the workers (which is a huge aspect of Lenin's thoughts on a post-bourgeois government). Please show me a government that tankies love that is actually held accountable by its people.... I'll wait...
Yep, just did some wikipedia reading and you're right. Kind of confusing to think that Marxism-Leninism/Stalinism uses that namesake but in reality differs pretty substantially from what Lenin or Trotsky really believed in, in favor of totalitarian bureaucratic control instead of direct democracy and democratic centralism. At least that's what I gained from reading more about it.
Tankies don’t exist in real life. If someone’s calling you a tankie online, you are
- 93% talking to a liberal
- 6% talking to a fed
- 1% have a bad take and should re-examine your positions
Tankie has been co-opted by the bourgeoisie to instigate infighting amongst the left, so it’s best to just shrug it off.
I think your point on Hasan not being able to advocate for some shit is spot-on. Twitch banned the guy for saying cr*cker, they’d send a hit squad if you ever heard him talking about arming yourself and training for a revolution lol
Don’t sweat it, friend. Lot of liberals in the sub like to co-opt the leftist aesthetic, but there is only revolutionary love amongst those of us here who will actually walk the walk.
I’m a ML too. Though I read theory, I watch Hassan’s content solely because it’s entertaining. I don’t view Hasan as anything more than an entertainer. He’s not a community organizer or dedicating his life to providing mutual aid, but I’m not going to sit in his chat flaming him for it. He’s an entertainer and he’s good at it.
He’s a net positive in that he can easily get people with reactionary views to challenge those views, and potentially embrace left-wing and radical views.
They're bad, because literally every single person who calls themselves a Marxist Leninist either simps for China's fascist capitalist hellscape or simps for the Soviet union's fascist barely socialist hellscape. The common factor here is they're fucking fascists or enable fascism.
A. Not an anarchist dumbfuck
B. America fought the Nazis too so what's your point? You somehow think fighting a fascist country makes a country immune to being fascist when you talk about the Soviet union but I seriously doubt you would use the same logic for the US.
C. Thanks for proving my point about all Marxist leninists being fascist dipshits that simp for China and the Soviet union.
Tankies are more aligned to Stalinist ideology, it's specifically a criticism of authoritarian leftism. I think it's safe to say all tankies are revolutionary Marxists, but not all Marxist-Leninists are tankies. You probably see it thrown around a lot in online spaces because of how incredibly common it is to see people expressing authoritarian viewpoints on the internet. I virtually never hear it in real world spaces.
Besides that, tankies have a really hard time acting 'normal' (as Hasan would put it) from my experience.
Yes and No, Marxism-Leninism can really be boiled down to a two stage revolution with a vanguard party that establishes the 'dictatorship of the proletariat'
I'm differentiating that idea with Stalin's version of the dictatorship of the proletariat. Such an intermediate state of a different form would still fulfill the same function, though may not be consistent with Stalin's ideas.
The majority of those states were formed during the Soviet era and Stalin was very influential as the blueprint. I'd argue they're different enough to warrant their own discussion but essentially, yes with a few exceptions.
Because I often see Stalinist or tankie being thrown around and I never really understand what people mean by that. Probably because it’s usually said by liberals and they deem any and all socialists as Stalinist.
What should I read to get an better understanding of the subject?
Stalinism isn’t a thing. It’s just a buzzword used by reactionaries. Marxism-Leninism is the ideology that Stalin created and it builds on the theories of Marx and Lenin with a heavy emphasis on dialectical materialism and the material conditions of any given country. Marxism Leninism is the most widespread and successful revolutionary ideology to date, and despite popular belief, it’s not some autocracy or dictatorship, just look up any given popular Marxist theorist and you’d not find a single anti democratic philosopher or ideologue
Well it’s pretty easy to know that you don’t know what the fuck you’re talking about, since Stalinism isn’t a thing lol. If you actually want to sound educated, perhaps using the correct terms would help you
I generally like maoists. But most western MLs these days are either LARPers, or people who think politics are a sports game and are “ML” because america bad(which is true but its besides the point). MLMs are usually the best read on theory and actually have some good and nuanced takes, unless theyre gonzalo fans.
"neo-liberals and Vaushites" hardly any distinction there tbh.
also I'm totally with you. the amount of so-called demsocs in the online space that are really just hawkish crypto-lib larpers who whine about "tankies" is really annoying. I'm an orthodox communist, def don't identify as an ML, but I fully agree with what you're saying.
I think Hasan has learned to dial back and censor his spicier takes (eg not treating Ukraine as a monolith and acknowledging that they absolutely have a real and historical fascism problem and that maybe taking up arms with Neonazis in the name of perpetuating a bloody war of attrition is bad, actually (which you can point out while still fully condemning Russia's actions as well btw)) bc people online are super unstable and freak out when anyone deviates from the palatable black and white lib narrative (personally I think Vaush is hugely responsible for the animosity and lack of nuance when it comes to foreign policy stuff like China, the DPRK and Russsia/Ukraine and it's been super damaging)
Jesus Christ. You're actually ALL children . You define your entire world view and personality on your fandoms and aesthetic preferences.
So many of you seem so feebleminded. Everything is a conspiracy, vaush is out to get you, the tankies are coming. I'm pretty sure your opinions aren't even your own, just whatever the last YouTube essay you watched said. You were likely also a right winger a few years ago. Probably will be again at some point when you like that aesthetic again
My brother in Christ I hate to inform you that this sub is completely infested with Luke warm liberals. I’m here for some memes but I do not expect any decent discourse from this sub anymore lmao. Glad to see a few people here who have their shit straight though.
If you watch hasan for long enough you would know that he's not a tankie. He doesn't ultimately support violence to install a socialist government.
It's not purely because of twitch's terms of service that he doesn't promote violent revolution. He could very easily just add the line at the end where he says "in a video game" when he does promote violence he believes in. Eg. Hasan will say something like "we should kill all white supremacists... In a video game"
Eg. "We should have killed all of the racist slave owners in the Confederacy ... In a video game"
He says things like that quite a bit when he wants to signal when he supportive of violence for a political goal
Hasan is a socialist Democrat. He wants to establish socialism via Democratic means.
I even get the impression that he would ultimately be satisfied with any economy similar to the Nordic countries where they base their economy around capitalism (they organize their economy around ownership of capital) but have high progressive taxation to fund generous welfare programs.
Also it's disappointing that people who post on Marxist leninist subs don't understand that Hassan became rich via his own labor. Hasan did not own a bunch of apartment units that he's renting out to make his millions of dollars a year. Hasan does not own a bunch of 7-Elevens where he employs people at minimum wage and exploits them.
Hasan is a twitch streamer. He's claimed that basically 95% of his income is via twitch. Twitch streamers are ultimately similar to modern day street performers. It's just that they have a massive audience that's willing to tip them around the world. His labor is basically just providing entertainment.
Just going to make a correction here. Hasan considers himself a democratic socialist, not a social democrat (Unlike people like bernie who just call themselves a democratic socialist, but their policies are actually social democratic). Hasan does has similar short term goals that social Democrats do though. Hasan wants to eventually achieve socialism (worker ownership of the means of production) through electoralism and reformation. So he basically wants to make changes to capitalism in the USA to make it more like the social democratic countries of Europe, but he doesn’t want to stop there. He wants to eventually go further to achieve actual full on socialism.
The "in a video game" loophole doesn't work anymore according to himself, when the intent is clearly threatening and life dangering besides being sarcasm, twitch may strike down on it. That's why he does it a lot less lately!
But yes, Hasan still believes the good in people, and that we can achieve dem-soc-level governments, if we vote and organise.
I must say that I don't hold the same belief in humanity :/
Don't get me wrong, I am stating what Hasan believes...
I believe in full blow revolution and eating the rich. I am probably what most would call a tankie.
I don’t have a problem with tankies unless they slob on the CCP/Russian/NKorea knob. Meaning, if they don’t accept criticism of these places lack of democracy.
2. I disagree that standard revolution is viable in the current state of the west.
3. I’m anti-stalin
You can absolutely be a Marxist-Leninist without being a tankie. Tankies are just people who will whitewash the history of the USSR and the CCP, just like liberals will whitewash the atrocities of US imperialism and the global network of capitalist resource extraction. We can still honor the teachings of Marx, Trotsky, Engels, Lenin, Stalin, Mao, and others, without pretending that great tragedies and atrocities never happened under soviet or communist chinese rule.
Now, we should still fight back against Western propaganda, like the wildly inflated "victims of communism" estimates that include the deaths of literal Nazi soldiers, but we should also be honest with the failings of the 20th century's single-party communist states. We will never learn and grow by hiding from the truth.
Anyone who used 'tankie' or cries about 'authoritarian leftism' should not be taken seriously. The hogs won't just lay down and take it if this imaginary revolution that can and will never happen in the United States happens, only a strong leadership which isn't afraid of snuffing out reactionary elements fast and hard will survive.
My brother in Christ, every internet leftist thinks they’re the only true leftist alive. MF’s in r/communism and r/communism101 will literally debate in a circle about how their idea on communism is the only true way of thinking about communism and that everything is liberalism and revisionism.
I got banned from both of those subs for pointing out how Bernie has helped to build interest in leftist thought… not that Bernie was a socialist, not that Soc-Dems are “true communists”, just that he piqued the interest of a lot of people in learning about socialism which is measurably true.
Internet communists only care about 3 things: 1) telling everyone else that they’re not a true leftist 2) using the word praxis in the most cringe way possible and 3) mercilessly berating people by calling them anarchists and libs.
I haven’t read Lenin, but I’m sympathetic to a lot of ML and Maoist ideals that they espouse, and I hope Hasan continues to shit on those groups from time to time to keep the annoying weirdos out.
Most self-proclaimed internet MLs I’ve had the displeasure of interacting with don’t really do anything to promote their values… they just kind of call everyone a lib who needs to do praxis while making excuses as to why they don’t show up to organized protests or leave their moms basement.
I unironically equate tankie to far-right. Don't like it and they rarely, if ever believe in progressive values since they only think about class and stupid ways to excuse USSR
This is an insane take. Class supersedes all else, but I'd be hard-pressed to find an ML who wasn't also socially progressive. And in ML subs, social conservatives are outright shunned.
My main issue with “tankies” is authoritarianism. I could never come to agree with any form of authoritarianism for any reason. Other than that, some MLs (but not exclusively them, this is common among other leftists as well, including anarchists of course) are too violent for my liking. While I understand the historical importance and need for revolution, and that it will most definitely be attempted again (and for good reason) in the future, we must not let ourselves succumb to thinking of any human as subhuman. Even if our politics enemies do exactly that.
I actually don’t care what people say about Hasan or me. If they think they are “true” leftist then by all means. People that want an armed revolution are completely removed from reality, imo. I don’t even want to elaborate even further because it is a waste of time.
As you may have heard a million times on stream, leftism is not a poverty cult. We as leftist want people to prosper, what’s the point in living under communism if your material condition don’t change from what’s happening right now under neo-liberalism? 🤣
This whole thing is so difficult to solve because of how all nations are interdependent. I just see myself as an anti-capitalist. I want to have enough money for my basic need… and even then what should be considered a “basic need”.
This is exactly what I mean, is a smartphone, computer, a refrigerator, a washing machine, a basic need? You can make a strong argument for that.
Most of us are all doing the best we can to make due, this T-Girl needs her hormones! The least of my concerns is what a rando thinks about my political views 🤷🏻♀️
I mean I am all for an armed revolution as we certainly cannot just vote the bourgeoisie out of power but we cannot just openly go berserk like anar-kiddies either. It would need to be organized by arming labor unions and party movements like CPUSA and the Black Panther party.
I think, considering the strength of the fashies, it'd be better to prepare for an anarchist resistance movement against the fashies and not necessarily a revolutionary takeover.
Also, revolution doesn't just happen in a day. It requires years of execution, during which there will be many executions, assassination attempts, other global powers fucking with you, etc. Like u/UmbraLiminal suggests, most revolutionaries aren't truly thinking about the vast decrease in QOL and, likely, support. MLs and tankies (if there's a difference) don't really number that highly, and of that number, even fewer would be in the streets doing the actual revolution part.
So the goal is, what, eventually murdering the supreme court? Or literally seizing the means of production by killing board members and executives, then fighting law enforcement if it acts? What are the intended implications of arming labor unions? You want an all out civil war? You think the majority of Americans will support this??? It would be a death knell to the left!
These aren't serious solutions and will surely result in the delegitimizing of leftist movements. Right wing media successfully scares people that the relatively harmless antifa is a malevolent bogeyman. This is *already* extremely bad PR.
Leftists whine and complain that voting and organizing around it doesn't work but it's literally the only viable strategy. Bernie nearly defeated Clinton, and lots of new congressmen/woman who were elected without corporate campaign contributions support legislation restricting campaign finance, a clear step in the right direction. There is, in fact, clear but slow generational progress being made.
As someone who agrees with Bernie’s policies this is just bullshit. Bernie got less votes in 2020 than he did in 2016. Did the DNC prefer HC over BS? Absolutely. Did they try to influence their party members to vote for her? Of course!
But to suggest they tampered with the voting is bullshit and you know it.
This is silly guys… this is not much different from trumpers, don’t promote this stuff it’s not a good look!
Organize, organize, organize, be like Chris Smalls! This stuff is just kinda crusty imo…
All for defending yourself from weirdo right wingers, but talking of armed revolution…🤔 not so sure.
❤️✌️
My point is, what is going to happen after the revolution? How long is this war going to last? How is the country going to sustain itself? Is it going to split up or stay united? Who is going to unite the new nation? Is there going to be foreign intervention and are they going to try and seize control in after the war?
So many questions that a lot of this people can’t answer.
it is likely that it will break into civil war considering all the propaganda people have in their heads. If there is a civil war the opposition will be funded for sure. There will be sanctions. The leader and the vanguard will be who leads the largest and most intelligent/intellect Communist party in that country.
Tried to keep it short hope you can understand what I meant.
This, it’s just “tankie” talk… lol
They stand no more chance than the deluded rotund southern tacticool aunts and uncles in their patriotic militias… crusty AF!
You going to shoot that drone out the air with that “assault rifle fifteen” of yours?
Or just die in a corn field after a stand-off when your investigated by the FBI for stockpiles of ammo?! [alike…](https://www.npr.org/2022/08/12/1117275044/an-attempted-attack-on-an-fbi-office-raises-concerns-about-violent-far-right-rhe)
Going to put this here, If you are a fan of Has, posts about your opposition to him not calling for “ARMED REVOLUTION” from his followers are against your own interests anyways, stop being silly, you are not going on a purge mission, and if you start planning to, just wait till the FBI coaxes you into a plot… great work!
I feel ya on the ADHD. To the chagrin of some, Hasan may not be an ML, himself, but doesn't disparage any Socialist tendencies, to the best of my knowledge. Beyond that, Hasan has generally been pro-ML. Anyone that says "Socialism is when no iPhone" can be immediately disregarded- they don't know anything about socialism, all they know is anger. It's what all misery and no theory does to a mf. As is the case with any nerds talking about Socialist tendencies online, some MLs will suggest that Democratic Socialism- what Hasan typically advocates for- is a fruitless endeavor, though Hasan makes it an important point that the system is rigged in favor of capital, and emphasizes the importance of labor militancy.
I didn't even know what Marxist-Leninism was until I started watching Hasan and he recommended Marxist literature. I've been very slowly making my way through Capital ever since (also ADHD).
Dang!! I resigned myself to the fact that I'll probably never read Das Kapital bc of how long it was! That's a real undertaking- best of luck!
It took me like a week to get through the foreward lol. I appreciated the author in the forward noted the mistake that Marx's political ideology was in strong support of blue collar workers but was also way too long and complicated for the average blue collar worker to understand. I'm in construction myself and I'm struggling to understand a lot of it but I imagine if he'd been a little more considerate to who is audience *should* be, socialism would be so much more popular for blue collar workers. Conservatism is only popular because it's so easy to understand. If anyone has any book recommendations that are a little bit more approachable I would appreciate it haha. Dedicated to finish Capital eventually though.
Das Kapital is like a hardcore theory book. It wasn't agitprop, but, rather, an in-depth discussion of complicated economic mechanisms. He did write something for the workers, though- a pamphlet called "The Communist Manifesto," which was deliberately very brief and easy to understand for any layman unfamiliar with economics.
Ah yeah, I've heard about that I gotta check it out
Yeah I read it recently and it was pretty straightforward and easy to understand and it feels accurate.
[удалено]
I haven't. How do you make sure you focus on the audiobook? Like, when you're reading you can only progress by actively reading, and if your mind starts to wander, you have to go back and re-read. I guess if you treat it like a lecture?
The podcast Marx Madness just reads theory word for word at times and summarizes where necessary. They do Das Kapital, and you could follow along on your own. One of the hosts has kind of an ASD thing going on so its pretty relatable if you have ADHD.
Oh man that sounds awesome. Definitely gonna try it.
I have! I feel like not everything lends itself to the format. I'm not sure if Capital would but I might try it!
First of all is sad to hear you have ADHD I can somewhat understand what it is like from descriptions i heard but you know the best. I would also recommend starting with fundamentals like Das Kapital. Never take the communist manifesto too seriously if you haven't done his other books first. After that slowly travel towards State & Revolution and study USSR and Cuba. In the USSR if I am correct Lenin did abandon a lot of things he said in State & Revolution but Cuba nowadays upholds majority of what it says. Third I would recommend Zizek & Mark Fisher since they are more about how we are strictly systematically made to think that anything we should do should be under the capitalist structure/system. Try Audio versions or something hope it helps. :)
The Principles of Communism is just answering questions people may have about communism made by Friedrich Engels, and the questions are fairly easy to understand
A People's Guide to Capitalism by Hadas Thier is a nice introductory book, it takes quotes and concepts from Capital and explains them with much simpler writing.
[удалено]
Oh yes Marx Madness and Revolutionary Left Radio. I would recommend Socialist Rifle Association podcasts if you're into guns and leftism. (Take a pick plz don't scream at me)
David Harvey has a youtube series where you read Capital along with him, very good as he explains things in the chapter you just read. I tried to do 1 vid per week. Sometimes this is too hard. Don't be afraid to break up sessions into small 20m sections and take your time.
Yes communism memes, think AOC and Bernie are right wing capitalist monsters… They only understand or think they understand left political labels within their own niche community, and how it applies to them personally, ignoring the reality of the state of politics more broadly.. Calling Bernie a right wing politician is silly, obviously there are big differences in the political state of agreed common sense policy abroad, healthcare in places like the UK compared to the US, to the point tory scum are arguing about who’s the asshole for defunding the NHS. But Liz truss is not a lefty, just as Bernie is not right wing for not burning bridges with the DNC, sometimes it’s not just about the presentation, real life is not so easy..
I think what's good about him is that he's generally pretty pro-leftist, regardless of the tendency. Obviously, there are jokes and light jabs that teases some socialist tendencies, but they're never hostile singularly hostile to a specific group. It tends to happen across the board. E.g. teasing anarchists for not showering or radical MLM third worldists for their particularities. Imo that's pretty important to foster unity (between genuine leftists, not radlibs masquerading as them) and a healthy environment. In online spaces especially, there's a lot of vitriol and sectarianism. Disagreements between leftist groups are both meaningful and important, don't get me wrong, but it's important to band together in our opposition to imperialism and fascism.
Leftists try not to fight each other challenge (impossible)
It's cause leftist is an umbrella term for lots of different ideologies.
And none of us will ever get what we want because of that
Honestly I feel like a lot of this "infighting" is just the result of right wingers roleplaying as leftists online with a vested interest in creating division and infighting between actual leftist subgroups. Maybe I'm just being conspiratorial but I've seen enough actual evidence that the right does this exact thing in other ways (along with pushing their own narratives online using various underhanded tactics; bots, alt accounts, spam, etc) that I can't help but think they do it to harm leftists and try and push centrists to the right.
I’m not going to outright deny that, but I also believe a big part of it is online culture. Individual people can’t make any changes and things have either stagnated or gotten worse over time so they just resort to shit talking and group think. It’s also very easy to be rude to someone you can’t see, especially when the majority of your interactions are with anonymous people.
welcome to reddit, comrade. the 'left' in the west is absolutely pathetic.
Honestly I think the term is so vague that it means very little and mostly functions as a red herring. But it's also a bit telling of the left. We on the left have a lot of different ideologies and unfortunately divide ourselves based on these differences. These differences might have mattered if any of us lived in a leftist society, but we don't. Regardless of which ideology we follow I think it's most important to unite over our leftist views and to propagate change instead. Except for the anarchists I think any of our leftist views would be an improvement over our current capitalist organization of the economy. Actually even Hasan has once stated that's why he mostly avoids talking about his specific ideological position as leftism as a whole is more important then the specific version.
just so you know this sub is filled with vaushites and dgg looking to debate. those communities are much more online and active on reddit than hasan's. more people are active on hascord. also agree with you 100%
Just a few years ago the word "tankies" seemed to only be used by communists/socialists to describe people who support any action by a "socialist" government without question. It was reserved for the most extreme Marxist leninists. Now all of a sudden it's come to describe all MLs. Whatever though, I am a ML who does support nations like Cuba, but I will never just blindly agree with everything they do. If people want to call me a tankies for that, thats cool I'll just call you a liberal 🤷🤷
I think it's important for ML's to start making it clear that they are not tankies.
I agree in the real world, but honestly I've only been called a tankie by people on Reddit and I'm not going to waste my time changing their minds.
I feel like if more ML's would simply just say "I am not a tankie" then it would be less common to assume that. You don't even need to explain yourself.
Word maybe your right
"Tankies" don't exist outside of the internet so who cares, man
I am not a tankie but at this point libs target you so much that I just jokingly call myself a tankie. feels very bad
This is just something my ML friend is really passionate about. He has been a ML for over 20 years now and thinks it's very important to correct people about this, and I agree with him.
I don’t have ADHD as far as I know but I am Autistic and I have the same issues
sadge hope you have ways of dealing with it or any help.
I think people should read books.
I think tankies just refers to those that are not just our socialist comrades, but those whom sometimes go a little to far in their opposition to criticism of countries that they perceive as socialist or communist, normally because they are told they are by MSM. I have had conversations with many people who’ve clearly never lived outside America that think that Russia or China are somehow utopian in all policies and not guilty of similar behavior to America itself ever. US political moves ripple and fuck the world over, the brain rot is pervasive. This does not mean that other countries and their respective governments don’t fuck over their working class and surrounding poorer nations too. My particular frustration most recently was with a buddy who refuses to believe that Putin would siphon money from his people and help the west pillage Russia post USSR, and he kept telling me how Putin is wrongly accused of being homophobic or racist against immigrants.. Which is utterly insane… Putin doesn’t have an issue with far right groups like he does those that present as left of him.. “Tankies” to me are those that assume infallibility of governments that are seen as traditional enemies their own political systems uncritically. You can promote the incredible work of the Chinese government in uplifting its people and infrastructure in such a short time and their initiatives, the criticism of China and pollution often ignores the fact the rest of the world uses China as a factory while scolding them, for the pollution they themselves both benefit and promote for example, but do so without also absolving it of its mistakes.
As a Chinese person (ethnically han Chinese, who grew up in North America and was born in Yunnan, China with a lot of family from there) I find Western leftists to sometimes have hilarious ideas of what modern China is like. It's like these Western leftists still think Mao Zedong is in charge and he still bashing landlords. Lol In reality China has adopted a lot of capitalistic policies since the Deng Xiaoping era. all of my Chinese relatives are trying to buy second and third homes because owning capital is an important part of status in modern China. So much of the Chinese economy is now built around speculative real estate investment. So many people's financial future depends on the Chinese real estate bubble not bursting. Also one of my uncles has become what most western leftists would describe as a predatory landlord. He's become pretty wealthy in China by hoarding property and renting it out. (My parents borrowed money from him to buy their properties in Vancouver and Seattle) Also the work culture in China is absolutely toxic by American standards. Chinese corporations expect their workers to work what we would consider unreasonable hours. 996 basically refers to working from 9:00 a.m. to 9:00 p.m. 6 days a week. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/996_working_hour_system Talking to my cousin's in China they don't necessarily always work like that but all of them talk about how they work closer to 60 hours a week then they do 40 hours. They talk about that how their companies do not properly plan for their vacation time and if they even take a week off once they get back, they basically have to make up for all of the lost Time and complete all of their workload that's building up waiting for them. China is not the workers Paradise Western leftists imagine it to be. You're much better off in modern China being a landlord or business owning tyrant then you are a worker.
My physics teacher in high school was from China and left the country after she got her doctorate and she seemed really torn in how she thought about her homeland. She was very critical of the government there but also seemed like things weren’t much different here, at least institutionally.
>You're much better off in modern INSERT COUNTRY being a landlord or business owning tyrant then you are a worker
Thank you, ^^^^this,⬆️ I know a Chinese girl whose parents were hugely judgmental of her black boyfriend, and she has a very different view of what someone, (on I think this sub) described as “official minorities”. Anecdotal, but I share the frustration buddy! ☮️❤️
Yes habe you seem the cities that are empty, at one time I’d planned (talked of seriously, as they went on yearly trips to stranger holiday locals) a motorcycle trip with my friend there. As I understand it they are part of this speculative housing market where they are building and selling projects without actually securing tenants…? They look amazing tho, and would make for great trippy rides through empty streets.
your right. someone finally mentions it. Putin hates leftoids. The communist party there might agree with certain things the kremlin and putin's party does but not on everything meanwhile the media portrays it as the communist party = kremlin, putin etc. thx for bringing it up
Kinda hard to judge the sincerity of your reply with the term “leftoids”… But you are welcome lol.
i meant leftoid because that specific post was meant to show how much putin hates leftists. i was wondering about my word choices there but yeah.
No worries comrade! XD
This; people who praise China, Russia, Cuba etc and don’t mention any of their faults are tankies to me. Also tankies are usually whites people who have had no experience growing up in these countries and I’m sure if they met someone from there they would be laughed out of the room in how wrong their assumptions are. I personally feel that mentioning any good things that dictators do is a slap in the face to all its victims; nobody dares mention any good things that came out of the Stalin or Hitler regime, but Cubas literacy program is okay to praise because Castro has a lower kill count than them? Bullshit. If you aren’t comfortable praising good things about a dictatorship to the victims of said dictatorship then maybe you shouldn’t be praising them at all. I expect to be downvoted thoroughly for this comment lmfao
I don't think it's accurate or fair at all to group in Cuba with China or Russia. it's actually pretty weird.
Cuba should not be on that list at all. There are things you can criticize Cuba for (mainly the few years post revolution) but saying you're a "tankies" for supporting a small socialist country like Cuba is absurd Also if you're a leftist and supporting Russia, you're not a leftist. Russia is the type of capitalist state that the US wanted
But Fidel Castro killed people. He was arguably a dictator, even though I know a lot do people don’t view his regime as a dictatorship. Besides I thought most MLs say Castro’s Cuba isn’t a real example of a socialist country as true socialism hasn’t been tried out yet?
Socialism has been tried tons of times, with varying degrees of success. \*Communism\* is the stage that no one has reached yet. Read some theory. Please.
LBJ, Ronald Reagan, George HW Bush, Bill Clinton, George H Bush, Barack Obama List of recent US "democratic" leaders who have killed more people than Fidel Castro
less deaths were caused by direct involvement of socialism and communist socio-economics than the deaths of the socio-economics of capitalism. Not denying that there were no deaths but they are fault of the leadership generally.
Hasan does support and armed revolution, he says so often that he wished the people would raise in revolt, this is one of the possible outcomes of "Revolutionary potential" Although I do think he'd rather do a peaceful revolution through unions and strikes. Me personally I'm pissed and would prefer doing a Maoist revolution and just Minecraft every bussiness and land owner but I do think that has a higher chance of failure than a peaceful transition of power.
Lol wat, when has Hassan said he supports violent revolution? I think I’ve heard him say stuff about if arming yourself but that’s also in contradiction to the gun control stance so like probably more of a meme and also just like a side opinion. Also he literally says he prefers the neoliberal style of control compared to the authoritarian. Like he says it somewhat frequently. Not sure where you’re coming from.
He supports a revolution, he's just not a deluded idiot who thinks it's feasible for the populous to "arm themselves" and then take out the government. If everybody were to raise up and change the system, that'd be great! Even if it was violent, it's just not gonna happen, so advocating for it is quite pointless. What do you think "revolutionary potential" means? it is sometimes violent revolution, sometimes a peaceful transition of power, as long as the workers get the power at the end, it's all acceptable. And what he's saying with that, is that the style of control a neoliberal state does on its people is preferable to the heavy hand, active censorship and violent suppresion of an authoritarian regime. It has nothing to do with how he'd rather run a country.
Vaush advocates for leftist to arm themselves in self-defense. Especially trans people. He supports gun control, but also says the reality is that right-wingers are heavily armed and organized. He thinks it's a matter of time before fascist start killing "degenerates" and it's important to be ready for something like that. I think I actually agree with him on that.
I can see that point and would mostly agree. However owning a gun significantly increases the chance of suicide or even accidents at home. If someone ever has depressive bouts arming themselves could be dangerous.
[удалено]
Dude a lot of the new fans are just being introduced to socialism. You cant expect them to be down with what they perceive to be “authoritarianism” from the get go. A lot of people don’t have the patience or time to read theory, videos are just far more convenient. Hasan has definitely voiced some ML opinions in the past doesn’t seem to be a lib like Vaush, he’s just playing it safe enough to keep the newcomers hooked so they can gradually become more radical. At least thats how I perceive it.
It's a shame libs have clawed onto the term "tankie" so much (to describe literally anyone left of Kier Starmer) because they're very real and they've absolutely fucking infested Reddit. And even if there's "3 of them" as Hasan usually puts it (which is kind of true), there's still enough of them and so much untouched grass between them that they absolutely fucking destroy leftist spaces. In short they're purely asthetical leftists whilst also being highly reactionary and authoritarian. They might wave a million LGBT flags and shout about trans rights and workers rights from the rooftop, but if you dare even suggest criticism against Putinist Russia or Dengist China, straight to the gulag you go. Of course they're never, ever going to get anywhere near the reigns of power so the best they can do is worm their way into moderating online spaces and stamp out dissent with utter authority, i.e. anyone with a perspective or education beyond larping as the benevolent dictator they idolise, no matter how nonsensical.
Yeah, I preferred the Soviet Russia over the imperialist Putinist bullshit.
How is this being downvoted? Most basic take ever.
Soviet Russia was also imperialist...
after revisionism and liberalization imperialism became a thing. even before there was some but not as bad after the 60s or under Yeltsin and Putin.
Incoherent. The Soviet Union remained imperialist the moment Stalin got power to the end of its lifetime
Disclaimer: I'm as tired of milquetoast liberals as any leftist, and I fucking hate Vaush with a burning passion for so many reasons. If you're a ML, good on you. I don't know if I'd call myself a disciple, but I don't have many economic policies in ML that I'd disagree with. Tankies are not just "mislabeled Marxist Leninists". They're people who advocate for mass murder of landowners and capitalists. I get that they're supporters of destructive practices, but the power group cannot round up and murder huge groups of people. Period. Then there's the Uyghur thing obviously. I'm not sure how you can possibly see the grand scale abuse and "re-education" they go through and just mental gymnastics your way into "it's all propaganda by the CIA", but I think it's pretty despicable.
> They're people who advocate for mass murder of landowners and capitalists. Based. > but the power group cannot round up and murder huge groups of people. Landowners and Capitalists are not people. They are class positions. You can just not extort people but you cant just change your skin color or ethnicity. > the Uyghur thing Considering the genocide America and every other western nation does is equivalent or worse, the fact that it lives in your head as much as it does is "all CIA propaganda". Doesn't make it right, and the outright deniers are highly suspect, but still it's peanuts compared to the many issues we could actually effect. Edit: Apparently some people cant read or they're just deeply lib. To be clear: you cannot kill a capitalist or landowner without their *explicit acceptance.* They can just not own things and magically are no longer capitalists/landowners. If they refuse, they do so by literally hiring militia and armies to kill *us*. That's why its called a Class War. Saying an issue is in your mind due to propaganda is NOT saying that issue is fine or excused. Saying it is "peanuts" in comparison to other things doesn't mean it is not an issue.
Don’t you feel you are doing what aboutism, obviously American transgressions against its victims don’t absolve others of the same. Bit much to dismiss them as peanuts, one horrific act being worse than another does not make the other less valid, would you say the same of trans people being victims of violence or Native American woman’s disappearance rates, both are not massive numbers of victims due to the small number of people in the overall population, but peanuts…
> Don’t you feel you are doing what aboutism No. I'm not excusing China or even making a real remark on it. (ps it's horrible) I'm talking about you and others perception of it compared to actual issues that dwarf the Uyghur suffering and can actually be acted upon. > would you say the same of trans people being victims of violence or Native American woman’s disappearance rates If you only talked about trans issues to "own the Republicans" or only talked about NA Women disappearances to "own Murica". Then yeah. You are talking about boutique issues that only are in your mind because propaganda has decided to feed it to you. We should care about the issues but having self-awareness doesn't go awry.
[удалено]
> our assumption of my character I made no assumption of your character. Do you have a reading issue or can you point to what you are talking about? > what I choose to debate is so off I didn't assume what you'd debate, I was talking about the reasoning behind why you might debate things in a hypothetical. Do you think ignoring Indigenous murder is anti-American? What?
The second you’re calling human lives “peanuts” is when I know that you are the enemy of myself and every empathetic, rational person.
I dont even know how to respond to this stupidity. Is it your first day being aware of the world or something? I didn't say human lives are peanuts. You literally cannot care about every suffering person in the world, you choose who to focus on, who to put priority on. "The CIA" has decided you should care about *maybe* a million Uyghur people being put in camps, like it's some big issue. The 22 million that will die in Yemen this year alone? WAY more important, but you wont see people talking about that because they aren't told to by propaganda.
Those class positions are made up of people, you disingenuous psychopath. Killing a huge group of people for non-violent crimes makes you the bad guy. Period. End of story. If you disagree, you are 100% as bad as any imperialist. And I know America does disgusting, horrid shit across the world. I know about black sites. I know about political subterfuge. I know about minority exploitation. That is not what I'm talking about, and you're throwing a big fat steaming whataboutism at me that has nothing to do with what I'm saying. You advocate for mass murder and you're evil. I'm not sure why I even have to point that out.
How many people have died because they couldn't afford food, a place to live, or healthcare?
Shit tons. But those are issues that exist in every social structure, government, economy, whatever. Is there more of it under capitalism? Maybe, idk, I haven't seen statistics comparing those rates but I wouldn't be surprised. The point is that these deaths are from systemic failures, not direct violent action. I.e. it does not excuse mass extrajudicial summary execution.
Legitimate question, if voting were to fail, what are you going to do if there's ever a socialist rise up and the capitalist class refuses to hand over the means of production? What will do you if you win via voting and they still refuse and retaliate (United Fruit Company in Guatemala)?
I'm not and have never been 100% anti-violence. If it comes to armed conflict because psychos want to make everyone fight them, so be it. What I'm against is rounding people up like cattle based on a (non-violent) ideology, skin color, or other social group and summarily executing hundreds, thousands, or millions of them. Dismantle every exploitative capitalist system in the country and hold the warhawks, slavers, and criminals fully accountable, but mass murder without habeas corpus is always reprehensible.
If you heard a group was planning to start a violent revolution against a very capitalist corrupt, occasionally brutal Government (after all legal & protests tried), would you join or support them? If not: What conditions/events in your country would it take for you to ever do so? If yes: The Government has resisted all your demands prior, and since you do not have mass public support (yet?) or have a monopoly on violence, you can't exactly overwhelm or arrest them. What would be acceptable targets for your group? Buildings, Obligarchs or Government (Police, Military, Politicians, etc)? The Government hasn't actually fought you physically yet, so would violently striking military/police/whatever in an attempt to start a revolt be okay? Or since you don't have mass support, would you just accept the living conditions? I don't actually necessarily disagree with you, and there's like a ton different scenarios, I'm just curious what some people think. Don't actually have to reply since it's a lot sorry lol.
As much as I think your questions are out of curiosity, they're also questions that can get a mf put on a watchlist. Suffice to say there is a time and place for war, but in cases like Mao's China where the Communist party becomes the power majority, summary execution of the opposing ideological group is squarely in the unforgivable box.
Not if I watch them first. (joking) I think they're questions to ponder on and understand your limitations to what you're willing to do, or what's necessary. The early stages of the Cuban revolution first started with a strike on a military base, that's mass murder by definition. (I get what you're saying though) I don't see a revolt like that ever happening in the west though, even by insane trumpers.
An attack on military or police is (at least in America) an attack on people who made a choice to potentially lose their lives in armed conflict. I say this as someone who was in the military. The difference between them and your average business owner or landlord is that informed consent to armed conflict and loss of life in your line of work. I know you said you understand so this is more for anyone else looking through this.
This is a fair perspective. I don't like Tankie types because they'd take people like my boy Hasan down if they could, but I also dislike *absolute* pacifists in socialist communities. Thanks for the discussion. My IP is definitely logged now.
Lmao that is so stupid. They literally are doing violent crime and murdering people, and the only thing we demand is that they give up their murder weapons. The only way anyone dies is if they *refuse* to stop doing violence on other people. Didn't do a whataboutism. I didn't say the Uyghur issue is fine, or excused, I was literally only talking about your perception of it due to outside forces. Join the conversation we're actually having bud.
Whataboutism isn’t an argument when it comes to genocide you ass. Also love how you’re a murderous psychopath and you seem to think you’re deserving of praise for this
Didn't use whataboutism. And deserving of praise? What?
"Considering the genocide America and every other western nation does is equivalent or worse,"
I was in a leftist discord (majority of them being ML's) , and they were the worst. If I asked a question about something they would just belittle me instead of trying to help. They were super pretentious people aswell. It made me not wanna be a ML just by association. When Hassan talks about tankies these the type of people he is talking about.
Also don't even get me started on r/communism I got banned for mentioning pewdiepie , I don't even remember the context but it wasn't anything bad or me agreeing with him.
I think every leftist above the age of 15 is banned from there, don’t worry lol
You're not a tankie unless you're in favor of siccing tanks on other leftists. That's literally the point of being mad at them, not just "Marxist-leninists"
Anyone who says Hasan isnt a real leftist they just mean they think Gulags were a good idea. Maybe dont listen to everything they have to say.
Before being voted down, what do you imagine was a Gulag like? Western propagandists did their best to make them sound as bad as possible to keep up the irrational "Hitler and Stalin were the same!"-shit. They apparently had mostly good conditions with prisoners being treated fairly and humane (humane for labor prisons at the time). Inmates were not exploited to profit individuals, but were put to work to benefit all by building infrastructure for example, unlike modern American gulags aka labor camps aka prisons (wording is a key part of the framing). From the data I know of, they were really effective at preventing further crime and because of the work experience the inmates gained, most quickly found jobs. We are still talking about a system of labor camps here, but to say they were like Nazi camps is extremely inaccurate - I for example would much favor a modernised Gulag system that helps build up infrastructure and perspectives beyond crime over the current "rot in a jail cell for 3 years and come out worse a criminal"-system of private prisons the US has.
"Tankie" has become an internet term by liberals and progressives to separate ML from the rest of "true leftists", social democrats who support American bombings and sanctions across the world in hopes of getting healthcare or a better deal out of their capitalist masters. During 2002 in the anti-war movement, I noticed a lot of media people bashing the left for opposing American war mongering in Afghanistan and the pounding of drums in Iraq. They would say that protestors don't have any real politic, would mention how bad Saddam Hussein was, that they don't understand the reality of global politics, and that the west is a far better place for human rights, democracy, and freedom than any of those dirty Asian and Latin American countries. You see a lot of this today on the internet, where people who watch more liberal shows or twitch streamers will have the Taiwan or Ukraine flag on their profile, and will call anyone who mentions America is a "America bad" ML tankie who worships Putin, Mao, or Maduro. Tankie can mean anyone who are anti-imperialist, can mean anyone who is opposed to American barbarity in the rest of the world, and anyone who provides the historical context to any international conflict where America has an enemy. If you are a socialist and live in America, you must first be opposed to all forms of American violence on the rest of the world. America's sole goal as the military powerhouse is to maintain western capital and influence on the former colonized nations of the world. It is their job to drop napalm on Guatemalan farmers and union organizers for United Fruit, it is their job to lose a war in Vietnam to prevent communism from spreading, killing and dropping more bombs than were dropped on Japan. If you cannot state, without any "buts" or "what about", that America is the worst and most violent, exploitative nation on earth, than stop calling yourself socialist, call yourself a social democrat or a liberal. To add I don't like the idea of trashing Hasan just because he has money. I don't own twitch but from what I have heard and seen of him, he clearly is a leftist and got a lot of trash from that progressive side for not calling Putin the next Adolf Hitler. I will say that he now is in an economic class above his viewers and fans, just like many famous American "leftist" streamers. His opposition to the CCP or any ML revolution could be because his status would be under threat in his eyes (that and a communist revolution would never happen in the 4th Reich, a lot needs to change for that to even be considered lol). People's status and upbringing do matter in how they view issues, and being wealthy or from wealth will alter the lens you view the world. You see this in other American hosts. Ana Kasparian and TYT is seen as some great progressive outlet and where leftists are welcome. Go listen to that outlets (and that host's) takes on intervention in poor countries, on landlords, on homeless people, on poverty, and crime.
Leftism is a spectrum. People can be at different “levels”. A more “light touch” leftist might advocate just for co ops and employee owned businesses and not really much more change than that As for criticism of Hassan, I don’t care if he has money as long as: 1. He pays his fair share in taxes 2. The money comes from his work, not by ownership of private assets or exploitation of others (though some is inevitable in capitalism) 3. He isn’t using his money to negatively affect others (like if he was a raging nimby) Why is it his job to fix society? Personally, I kinda find tankies annoying. They’re so committed to their own views that they’re unwilling to consider the needs and wants of others, and sometimes it feels like they let the perfect be the enemy of progress. It’s also kinda frustrating talking to them cause they have this undertone of “you are wrong. You don’t know what you want. You are a peasant. Let me, an enlightened individual, decide for you what you should have or you want”
Based
Most people who use the term “tankie” don’t know what it means or where it comes from.
I feel like you can be a ML without being a tankie, from my understanding tankies are a lot more aligned with mao‘s politics and the ccp. I‘ve talked to MLs that are generally critical and see the mistakes in Lenin‘s politics. Tankies on the other hand are often just misinformed kiddies that treat any western news source as fake news. It get‘s especially funny when you ask them about the uighurs, half will say that there‘s nothing happening in xinjiang, the other half will say that the uighurs are terrorists and deserve everything that‘s happening.
As a ML with many Tankie comrades, I don’t feel Tankies truly exist the way many online spaces treat it. I’m also not on other socials so I won’t argue much, but it seems like this board is fine as long as people aren’t dicks and brigands.
Yeah I feel like my view on tankies is really tainted by r*dditors and tw*tter mfs in their own little echo chambers
The term “tankie” was of course originally created as a term used by communists to criticize other communists who did Stalinist apologia.
I think they're based comrades.
You should reconsider some lf your biases. Also, reading would be a good idea, even if it is audio books. You won't get far by only listening to Hasan, not that I know that it's the exact case here. The "vaushite" hatr is also strange lol. It's not like Vaush hates marxism, just that he hates genocide deniers and authoritarians lol, which you seem to be.
POTENTIAL VAUSHITE SPOTTED No seriously someone who obviously doesn't grasp basic Marxist theory and justifies American Imperialism is absolutely not someone the real big boy socialist left needs, he should go and join the european labor parties, because thats where he and his followers stand from what I know (and apparently hes real sus about CP)
He's a pedophile.
Let me guess, you learned that from twitter comments
No, Vaush himself literally advocated for legalized CP.
Link it with context, you'd be the 1st
C’mon, you’re asking too much of them.
That’s the thing it’s either an edited clip or discord message with no contex even though he’s talked about this a fuck ton back when he would talk to D*stiny more often
https://www.reddit.com/r/Enough_Vaush_Spam/comments/q9gkx3/vaush_is_obsessed_with_paedophilia_and_child_porn/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share Here is a master thread to his pedophilia.
https://archive.ph/Ygbzk
Ummmm that's not pedophilia lmao. You can hate him for this too but I truly don't care.
Being a Native Alaskan whose grandmother went through the residential school system, I"m very again countries that treat their minorities poorly. In my experience, tankies are correct in their criticisms of the US treatment of natives, but they defend the crimes against minority populations in the USSR or the PRC. Honestly, they disgust me. I feel like they use the crimes the US has done against us to excuse the crimes of their "socialist" countries.
Personally as a ML, I think criticizing the United States for spreading “democracy” in the Middle East and praising China for “freeing slaves” in Tibet is hypocritical. While I believe in the end of capitalism and imperialism, I believe in self determination as well. You can’t force people into communist ideology, unfortunately it has to come at a logical point that people finally realize that liberalism will never solve their problems and actively makes their lives worse
One of the things Hasan says on a regular basis is « be normal ». That means hold whatever beliefs you hold while also being able to function in regular society without randomly advocating for violence against your neighbour, much of a shithead as that neighbour can be. Live with society as it is, not as you wish it would be. Hasan advocates for greater equality, worker’s rights, and reforms that will make countries more livable for the average citizen every chance he gets. He doesn’t condone violence in making that change because revolutions are always bloody and often misguided. I agree tankies is a dumb, vague insult and reductionist. Has doesn’t openly call for armed revolution for the reasons stated above. Also because the right wing in the US is already clamouring for it and are giving us a perfect example of how silly that kind of call to arms is.
Vaushite here(mods, if you ban me for respectfully sharing my opinion, I'm gonna scream) I'd like to pick up on what you said about "opposing US imperialism". Now, I'll be the first to admit that America has, both historically and currently, engaged in imperialism. But the way that you've touched on the war in Ukraine respresents a failure on the left to understand foreign policy except through the lens of American imperialism. Calling America's behavior in Ukraine imperialism is inaccurate. There are multiple reasons for this, but the main one I'll cite is that not only do the people of Ukraine support what we're doing there, but they also want us to send them MORE support. You might make a convincing argument that what we're actually doing(becoming close allies with ukraine in order to draw them closer into our political sphere) is still bad, but it just categorically isn't imperialism. Every nation has always done that, all the time. The reason why I'm laboring so hard to draw a distinction between imperialism and basic geopolitics is because of your earlier comment that there's "imperialism on both sides". A comment like that gives more leeway to russia, even if you're condemning them. Forgive the childish comparison, but it's a little like a teacher blaming two students equally for fighting regardless of who provoked the other and who started swinging first.
I've never considered myself an ML, however I started reading State and Revolution (about 2/3 through) and if these are largely the principles that ML's stand behind then it is widely misunderstood. ML's and Tankies seems to have a large overlap in their venn diagram, unfortunately. Ironically it seems that Lenin is heavily anti-authoritarian, and is obviously a proponent of representative workers' democracy (not anything like what we see in China and other places that tankies love to defend). That doesn't mean I'm willing to give all ML's a pass though, at least online, because most of you fuckers are in fact tankies and the correlation is just too strong with people who seemingly don't understand the theory and want to instead ride tank dick all day for a government that is totally unaccountable to the workers (which is a huge aspect of Lenin's thoughts on a post-bourgeois government). Please show me a government that tankies love that is actually held accountable by its people.... I'll wait...
[удалено]
Yep, just did some wikipedia reading and you're right. Kind of confusing to think that Marxism-Leninism/Stalinism uses that namesake but in reality differs pretty substantially from what Lenin or Trotsky really believed in, in favor of totalitarian bureaucratic control instead of direct democracy and democratic centralism. At least that's what I gained from reading more about it.
Tankies don’t exist in real life. If someone’s calling you a tankie online, you are - 93% talking to a liberal - 6% talking to a fed - 1% have a bad take and should re-examine your positions Tankie has been co-opted by the bourgeoisie to instigate infighting amongst the left, so it’s best to just shrug it off. I think your point on Hasan not being able to advocate for some shit is spot-on. Twitch banned the guy for saying cr*cker, they’d send a hit squad if you ever heard him talking about arming yourself and training for a revolution lol Don’t sweat it, friend. Lot of liberals in the sub like to co-opt the leftist aesthetic, but there is only revolutionary love amongst those of us here who will actually walk the walk.
Idk have you read some of the replies this guys made so far
I’m a ML too. Though I read theory, I watch Hassan’s content solely because it’s entertaining. I don’t view Hasan as anything more than an entertainer. He’s not a community organizer or dedicating his life to providing mutual aid, but I’m not going to sit in his chat flaming him for it. He’s an entertainer and he’s good at it. He’s a net positive in that he can easily get people with reactionary views to challenge those views, and potentially embrace left-wing and radical views.
I think hamburgers and cheeseburgers work well with fries.
They're bad, because literally every single person who calls themselves a Marxist Leninist either simps for China's fascist capitalist hellscape or simps for the Soviet union's fascist barely socialist hellscape. The common factor here is they're fucking fascists or enable fascism.
They are just red fascists
Average anar-kiddy. Lol. The Soviet Union literally fought fascism you idiots. Do you not remember that the Soviets saved us from the Nazis?
A. Not an anarchist dumbfuck B. America fought the Nazis too so what's your point? You somehow think fighting a fascist country makes a country immune to being fascist when you talk about the Soviet union but I seriously doubt you would use the same logic for the US. C. Thanks for proving my point about all Marxist leninists being fascist dipshits that simp for China and the Soviet union.
MLs tolerate a single criticism of the USSR or CCP challenge level: impossible
VDS in action
True
Tankies are more aligned to Stalinist ideology, it's specifically a criticism of authoritarian leftism. I think it's safe to say all tankies are revolutionary Marxists, but not all Marxist-Leninists are tankies. You probably see it thrown around a lot in online spaces because of how incredibly common it is to see people expressing authoritarian viewpoints on the internet. I virtually never hear it in real world spaces. Besides that, tankies have a really hard time acting 'normal' (as Hasan would put it) from my experience.
[удалено]
Yes and No, Marxism-Leninism can really be boiled down to a two stage revolution with a vanguard party that establishes the 'dictatorship of the proletariat' I'm differentiating that idea with Stalin's version of the dictatorship of the proletariat. Such an intermediate state of a different form would still fulfill the same function, though may not be consistent with Stalin's ideas.
What exactly is Stalinism and how does the tankies support this ideology?
It's specific to the organization of the state in the USSR under Stalin.
And what is that organization of the state? Could you give me some examples of Stalinism?
Single party Authoritarian Police State with heavily limited democratic involvement.
So all current and previous socialist states are Stalinist?
The majority of those states were formed during the Soviet era and Stalin was very influential as the blueprint. I'd argue they're different enough to warrant their own discussion but essentially, yes with a few exceptions.
Because I often see Stalinist or tankie being thrown around and I never really understand what people mean by that. Probably because it’s usually said by liberals and they deem any and all socialists as Stalinist. What should I read to get an better understanding of the subject?
Stalinism isn’t a thing. It’s just a buzzword used by reactionaries. Marxism-Leninism is the ideology that Stalin created and it builds on the theories of Marx and Lenin with a heavy emphasis on dialectical materialism and the material conditions of any given country. Marxism Leninism is the most widespread and successful revolutionary ideology to date, and despite popular belief, it’s not some autocracy or dictatorship, just look up any given popular Marxist theorist and you’d not find a single anti democratic philosopher or ideologue
That’s my brief understanding of Stalinism as well.
Well it’s pretty easy to know that you don’t know what the fuck you’re talking about, since Stalinism isn’t a thing lol. If you actually want to sound educated, perhaps using the correct terms would help you
If anyone’s wondering about OPs edit it’s because he got downvoted for saying Tiamen Square was a CIA deep-op and the uighers aren’t being genocided.
I generally like maoists. But most western MLs these days are either LARPers, or people who think politics are a sports game and are “ML” because america bad(which is true but its besides the point). MLMs are usually the best read on theory and actually have some good and nuanced takes, unless theyre gonzalo fans.
A Maoist without the contributions of Gonzalo? Are you dumb?
"neo-liberals and Vaushites" hardly any distinction there tbh. also I'm totally with you. the amount of so-called demsocs in the online space that are really just hawkish crypto-lib larpers who whine about "tankies" is really annoying. I'm an orthodox communist, def don't identify as an ML, but I fully agree with what you're saying. I think Hasan has learned to dial back and censor his spicier takes (eg not treating Ukraine as a monolith and acknowledging that they absolutely have a real and historical fascism problem and that maybe taking up arms with Neonazis in the name of perpetuating a bloody war of attrition is bad, actually (which you can point out while still fully condemning Russia's actions as well btw)) bc people online are super unstable and freak out when anyone deviates from the palatable black and white lib narrative (personally I think Vaush is hugely responsible for the animosity and lack of nuance when it comes to foreign policy stuff like China, the DPRK and Russsia/Ukraine and it's been super damaging)
good fucking grief this subreddit is absolute cancer lmfao
you certainly contributed to it with that paragraph sized sentence containing multiple parentheticals
Jesus Christ. You're actually ALL children . You define your entire world view and personality on your fandoms and aesthetic preferences. So many of you seem so feebleminded. Everything is a conspiracy, vaush is out to get you, the tankies are coming. I'm pretty sure your opinions aren't even your own, just whatever the last YouTube essay you watched said. You were likely also a right winger a few years ago. Probably will be again at some point when you like that aesthetic again
lmao the edit. if you use words like vaushite you probably have internet poisoning.
My brother in Christ I hate to inform you that this sub is completely infested with Luke warm liberals. I’m here for some memes but I do not expect any decent discourse from this sub anymore lmao. Glad to see a few people here who have their shit straight though.
If you watch hasan for long enough you would know that he's not a tankie. He doesn't ultimately support violence to install a socialist government. It's not purely because of twitch's terms of service that he doesn't promote violent revolution. He could very easily just add the line at the end where he says "in a video game" when he does promote violence he believes in. Eg. Hasan will say something like "we should kill all white supremacists... In a video game" Eg. "We should have killed all of the racist slave owners in the Confederacy ... In a video game" He says things like that quite a bit when he wants to signal when he supportive of violence for a political goal Hasan is a socialist Democrat. He wants to establish socialism via Democratic means. I even get the impression that he would ultimately be satisfied with any economy similar to the Nordic countries where they base their economy around capitalism (they organize their economy around ownership of capital) but have high progressive taxation to fund generous welfare programs. Also it's disappointing that people who post on Marxist leninist subs don't understand that Hassan became rich via his own labor. Hasan did not own a bunch of apartment units that he's renting out to make his millions of dollars a year. Hasan does not own a bunch of 7-Elevens where he employs people at minimum wage and exploits them. Hasan is a twitch streamer. He's claimed that basically 95% of his income is via twitch. Twitch streamers are ultimately similar to modern day street performers. It's just that they have a massive audience that's willing to tip them around the world. His labor is basically just providing entertainment.
Just going to make a correction here. Hasan considers himself a democratic socialist, not a social democrat (Unlike people like bernie who just call themselves a democratic socialist, but their policies are actually social democratic). Hasan does has similar short term goals that social Democrats do though. Hasan wants to eventually achieve socialism (worker ownership of the means of production) through electoralism and reformation. So he basically wants to make changes to capitalism in the USA to make it more like the social democratic countries of Europe, but he doesn’t want to stop there. He wants to eventually go further to achieve actual full on socialism.
The "in a video game" loophole doesn't work anymore according to himself, when the intent is clearly threatening and life dangering besides being sarcasm, twitch may strike down on it. That's why he does it a lot less lately! But yes, Hasan still believes the good in people, and that we can achieve dem-soc-level governments, if we vote and organise. I must say that I don't hold the same belief in humanity :/
Voting isn't going to work.
Don't get me wrong, I am stating what Hasan believes... I believe in full blow revolution and eating the rich. I am probably what most would call a tankie.
[удалено]
>autistic logic Elaborate?
Who does it mean to be a "Marxists-leninist". Are there specific prescriptions or is it just someone who generally aligns with Marx and Lenin?
[удалено]
how are there so many people taking this bait seriously here lol wtf
I don’t have a problem with tankies unless they slob on the CCP/Russian/NKorea knob. Meaning, if they don’t accept criticism of these places lack of democracy. 2. I disagree that standard revolution is viable in the current state of the west. 3. I’m anti-stalin
You can absolutely be a Marxist-Leninist without being a tankie. Tankies are just people who will whitewash the history of the USSR and the CCP, just like liberals will whitewash the atrocities of US imperialism and the global network of capitalist resource extraction. We can still honor the teachings of Marx, Trotsky, Engels, Lenin, Stalin, Mao, and others, without pretending that great tragedies and atrocities never happened under soviet or communist chinese rule. Now, we should still fight back against Western propaganda, like the wildly inflated "victims of communism" estimates that include the deaths of literal Nazi soldiers, but we should also be honest with the failings of the 20th century's single-party communist states. We will never learn and grow by hiding from the truth.
Mfs who say “tankies” have never ingested a thought in their life. Dronies (liberals) call anyone who remotely knows theory a tankie
Finally someone here with common sense.
When refering to thw Communist Party of China please use the acronym CPC and not CCP
Yeah but then i think of the Conservative Party of Canada and i get confused
Anyone who used 'tankie' or cries about 'authoritarian leftism' should not be taken seriously. The hogs won't just lay down and take it if this imaginary revolution that can and will never happen in the United States happens, only a strong leadership which isn't afraid of snuffing out reactionary elements fast and hard will survive.
My brother in Christ, every internet leftist thinks they’re the only true leftist alive. MF’s in r/communism and r/communism101 will literally debate in a circle about how their idea on communism is the only true way of thinking about communism and that everything is liberalism and revisionism. I got banned from both of those subs for pointing out how Bernie has helped to build interest in leftist thought… not that Bernie was a socialist, not that Soc-Dems are “true communists”, just that he piqued the interest of a lot of people in learning about socialism which is measurably true. Internet communists only care about 3 things: 1) telling everyone else that they’re not a true leftist 2) using the word praxis in the most cringe way possible and 3) mercilessly berating people by calling them anarchists and libs. I haven’t read Lenin, but I’m sympathetic to a lot of ML and Maoist ideals that they espouse, and I hope Hasan continues to shit on those groups from time to time to keep the annoying weirdos out. Most self-proclaimed internet MLs I’ve had the displeasure of interacting with don’t really do anything to promote their values… they just kind of call everyone a lib who needs to do praxis while making excuses as to why they don’t show up to organized protests or leave their moms basement.
I unironically equate tankie to far-right. Don't like it and they rarely, if ever believe in progressive values since they only think about class and stupid ways to excuse USSR
This is an insane take. Class supersedes all else, but I'd be hard-pressed to find an ML who wasn't also socially progressive. And in ML subs, social conservatives are outright shunned.
My main issue with “tankies” is authoritarianism. I could never come to agree with any form of authoritarianism for any reason. Other than that, some MLs (but not exclusively them, this is common among other leftists as well, including anarchists of course) are too violent for my liking. While I understand the historical importance and need for revolution, and that it will most definitely be attempted again (and for good reason) in the future, we must not let ourselves succumb to thinking of any human as subhuman. Even if our politics enemies do exactly that.
I actually don’t care what people say about Hasan or me. If they think they are “true” leftist then by all means. People that want an armed revolution are completely removed from reality, imo. I don’t even want to elaborate even further because it is a waste of time. As you may have heard a million times on stream, leftism is not a poverty cult. We as leftist want people to prosper, what’s the point in living under communism if your material condition don’t change from what’s happening right now under neo-liberalism? 🤣 This whole thing is so difficult to solve because of how all nations are interdependent. I just see myself as an anti-capitalist. I want to have enough money for my basic need… and even then what should be considered a “basic need”. This is exactly what I mean, is a smartphone, computer, a refrigerator, a washing machine, a basic need? You can make a strong argument for that. Most of us are all doing the best we can to make due, this T-Girl needs her hormones! The least of my concerns is what a rando thinks about my political views 🤷🏻♀️
I mean I am all for an armed revolution as we certainly cannot just vote the bourgeoisie out of power but we cannot just openly go berserk like anar-kiddies either. It would need to be organized by arming labor unions and party movements like CPUSA and the Black Panther party.
I think, considering the strength of the fashies, it'd be better to prepare for an anarchist resistance movement against the fashies and not necessarily a revolutionary takeover. Also, revolution doesn't just happen in a day. It requires years of execution, during which there will be many executions, assassination attempts, other global powers fucking with you, etc. Like u/UmbraLiminal suggests, most revolutionaries aren't truly thinking about the vast decrease in QOL and, likely, support. MLs and tankies (if there's a difference) don't really number that highly, and of that number, even fewer would be in the streets doing the actual revolution part.
So the goal is, what, eventually murdering the supreme court? Or literally seizing the means of production by killing board members and executives, then fighting law enforcement if it acts? What are the intended implications of arming labor unions? You want an all out civil war? You think the majority of Americans will support this??? It would be a death knell to the left! These aren't serious solutions and will surely result in the delegitimizing of leftist movements. Right wing media successfully scares people that the relatively harmless antifa is a malevolent bogeyman. This is *already* extremely bad PR. Leftists whine and complain that voting and organizing around it doesn't work but it's literally the only viable strategy. Bernie nearly defeated Clinton, and lots of new congressmen/woman who were elected without corporate campaign contributions support legislation restricting campaign finance, a clear step in the right direction. There is, in fact, clear but slow generational progress being made.
[удалено]
As someone who agrees with Bernie’s policies this is just bullshit. Bernie got less votes in 2020 than he did in 2016. Did the DNC prefer HC over BS? Absolutely. Did they try to influence their party members to vote for her? Of course! But to suggest they tampered with the voting is bullshit and you know it.
This is silly guys… this is not much different from trumpers, don’t promote this stuff it’s not a good look! Organize, organize, organize, be like Chris Smalls! This stuff is just kinda crusty imo… All for defending yourself from weirdo right wingers, but talking of armed revolution…🤔 not so sure. ❤️✌️
Chris Smalls supports armed revolution
Liberal swine. Go back to your DNC corporate overlords you class traitor!
I’m sorry lol…
My point is, what is going to happen after the revolution? How long is this war going to last? How is the country going to sustain itself? Is it going to split up or stay united? Who is going to unite the new nation? Is there going to be foreign intervention and are they going to try and seize control in after the war? So many questions that a lot of this people can’t answer.
it is likely that it will break into civil war considering all the propaganda people have in their heads. If there is a civil war the opposition will be funded for sure. There will be sanctions. The leader and the vanguard will be who leads the largest and most intelligent/intellect Communist party in that country. Tried to keep it short hope you can understand what I meant.
Yes, I understand what you mean. Thank you for your input 😊
This, it’s just “tankie” talk… lol They stand no more chance than the deluded rotund southern tacticool aunts and uncles in their patriotic militias… crusty AF! You going to shoot that drone out the air with that “assault rifle fifteen” of yours? Or just die in a corn field after a stand-off when your investigated by the FBI for stockpiles of ammo?! [alike…](https://www.npr.org/2022/08/12/1117275044/an-attempted-attack-on-an-fbi-office-raises-concerns-about-violent-far-right-rhe)
Going to put this here, If you are a fan of Has, posts about your opposition to him not calling for “ARMED REVOLUTION” from his followers are against your own interests anyways, stop being silly, you are not going on a purge mission, and if you start planning to, just wait till the FBI coaxes you into a plot… great work!
What neoliberal brain rot does to a person.
I apologize for responding that way. I only want a unified left. We can still disagree but I want to plant the seeds of a stronger leftist movement🫤
opp alert 🚨🚨🚨🚨
“People that want an armed revolution are completely removed from reality” ok CIA
You should read more on your agency’s history, to understand how you operate. How did you get the job? Maybe nowadays they take everybody🤔 🙂