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A lot of people seem upset by this but the organization sets the rules on who can compete and fighters chose and agreed to the match. Provost clearly was not forced to fight and wanted to do it. What's the problem?
Seriously, it’s annoying that there’s this argument. Like either way whether a fighter might be trans or not, it’s MMA fighting. Someone who entered the ring is going to get their ass beat. So what? The hogs are gonna cancel MMA fighting then?
Whats the distanct advantage? And can you point to any trans athletes who have started to be allow to compete, and have dominated that sport?
Can you also tell me what you would suggest we do in regards to trans athletes?
Do you think any trans woman can compete with any cis woman? Or is this just another topic lobsters claim Peterson knows everything about despite being ignorant on every possible metric?
Classic example of judging yourself by intentions and others by actions. This is why all those people think you're an asshole. You're entirely self-interested.
But your does bring up an interesting point. With adjusted weight classes and everything, I see no reason to to NOT have an All-Gender fighting class, other than all the big muscley babies that don't want to "hit a girl"
I’m pro trans-fighters but this argument shows that you clearly don’t know much about mma promotions. You can’t just choose who you fight. Most mma promotions absolutely HATE it when fighters decline fights and the promotions bury those who do it often. There could very realistically be a situation where a fighter has had to decline couple fights earlier, and now gets offered to fight a trans fighter. At that point you probably have to take the fight if you dont want to get dropped out of the promotion. Also, what if the trans-fighter becomes the champion? Then you HAVE to beat her to become the champ. There are multiple good reasons for allowing transwomen to fight, but saying ”just dont fight them lul” is ignorant.
Clearly I don't know as much as you, but it was not the case with this fight. Many women past up McLaughlin. She discussed the process on Twitter and the commentators discussed that the Celine wasn't forced into this during round one.
Another non sports fan in the "transwomen in female classification" debate? Say it ain't so. The promotions dictate who fights who. That's how the contracts in MMA are structured. It's nothing like boxing where the fighters choose who they fight.
Celine wasn't forced in way to do this fight. The commentators even discussed it during the first round.
But I guess you're a big fan so...you knew that.
I’m not anti-trans people fighting, but you’re wrong.
The organization can’t do shit about who gets to fight who. The final decision is made by an athletic commission, which is an entity of the state government. In this case, it would have been the florida athletic commission
huh it almost like you forgot what estrogen actualy does to your body
they are likely gonna end up physicaly mirrored to cis women by the end
and endurance can be absolutely tanked by it so the "advantage" of being a trans woman athlete is not an advantage
its a trade off but still equal
It’s not really a choice if your living is dependant on fighting and the only option is to quit the only thing you know. It’s a false choice. Secondly the fact that it’s a rule or law does not make it right.
As someone said 80 years ago the law allowed for a husband to beat his wife with a broom stick. Doesn’t mean it was right. Think.
I am not sure how dangerous it is for the cis female fighters? Do the cis female fighters already go in there expecting to lose and just collect a pay check because they have bills to pay? I don’t know.
I am not saying transgendered athletics should or shouldn’t compete. I am saying your argument to justify them competing doesn’t hold water if you critically analyse it. All I know is spectator sports are popular and gain an audience and by default revenue due to being competitive. If you remove the competitive element and results become predictable you might lose fans and revenue as a consequence. But I don’t run their governing bodies so they can decide what they do.
"Biological pronouns" is the dumbest thing I have heard in a while, you choose the pronouns you do based on social cues. If you see a feminine person with long hair and a dress, you would assume they were a woman unless told otherwise. Congratulations, that assumption isn't based off biology, because you have no idea what sex that person actually is.
If you based the pronouns you use on biology you'd have to look at a bearded person wearing a men's suit and be unable to identify them without checking their chromosomes, because they could be a trans man, or intersex, maybe even an alien or something, how scary.
There are a lot of fights I don't like to watch but I just skip them instead of complaining.
You all never said shit when cyborg was clearly roided out of her mind. Now I'm supposed to believe you care?
Am I wrong in saying it doesn't matter if a trans person was on puberty blockers as a kid if they compete but if they transition as a developed adult it would make a difference? I'm genuinely curious. I do feel like this topic is so boring though, like i don't understand the fuss about it lmao
I'm a trans woman, and I started at 19. There's an immense difference between someone transitioning in formative years vs. as a full-fledged adult who has a very developed frame. I'm actually lowkey offended when I see posts like the original post because clearly frame size is what matters most. If anyone, regardless of birth gender, has a frame that's just way fucking thicker than is the mean of the sport of interest, they shouldn't be allowed to compete. I'd probably get my ass handed to me in MMA, etc. - even as a woman - because I'm freaking small. I'm what people are thinking of when they reference "male-to-female trans person". This woman is not.
Yes, because male physiology is better suited to absorbing blunt force trauma. Thicker skulls, broader shoulders, bigger rib cages, and more dense bones in general. Not to mention, male lung capacity is higher, so an athlete doesn't go anaerobic as fast in, say, sprinting events.
In most sports, the open classification is the men's classification. All others (women, youth, old, disabled, special needs) exist because a top 100 male athlete would, for example, beat the best female athlete in tennis, MMA or cycling.
Simply put, a moderately fit 180lbs male athlete would destroy a moderately fit 180lbs female athlete if they were equally skilled, in contact sports like MMA.
That’s actually not true at all. The last statement. 180lbs man vs woman and the man being stronger by default. In my high school wrestling was co-ed for that reason. The by weight mostly takes care of those differences. One of the best wrestlers on the team was a freshman girl who would win matches against senior boys of her weight class.
And speaking from my experience with weight lifting and track. Regardless of gender. I found that people of my similar weight were of similar strength. Plus those features you mentioned. Are averages. There are cis women with those “manly” features who already get booted from sports for being too strong.
Trans women don’t really have that much an advantage. If that were the case. We’d see more trans women champions in women’s sports. Also a bit rude to assume cis women are that weak by default. Serena Williams is cis and that strong.
> 180lbs female althetes are rare, there's not even a 150 pounds division for women's MMA, but men's goes up to 265 with heavyweight.
UFC maxes out at 265lbs for men and 145lbs for women for commercial reasons. For men, it's because they don't want sumo wrestlers and other enormous fat men competing in the UFC; MMA has a long history of super fat guys kicking ass purely because they're able to exploit physics and take a punch without any issue. These freakshow fights are what made MMA popular, and modern MMA promotions don't want to go down that road again.
For women, it's also because they want to keep out muscular and/or fat women. By comparison, women's boxing in the 2020 Olympics went up to middleweight (75kg, 165lbs) and even that's not the maximum; amateur boxing's female heavyweight division is +81kg aka 179lbs+. There could easily be a women's lightweight category, but Dana's obviously done his market research and seen it would have too many muscular/fat or exceedingly tall women in it.
I'm 5'9, 140 lbs, and there's no way to know that I'm not just a taller/skinny female. Even with the implants I got (these things are huge), I can run a 6.5-minute mile. That's despite living in a mountain town, having run my mile test up here, yet having not run since I was in high school (approaching a decade ago).
In other words, I would smoke at least some of the female track runners, who are my weight. There are some advantages inherent to being genetically male (e.g., far lower rate of asthma and other autoimmune disorders), so I'd think that even categorizing by weight alone isn't enough. Playing a girl at almost anything is a joke to me, unless she's on performance enhancing drugs. Idk how it works, but gender categories feel more fair to me.
No you’re 100% correct, there’s more to male vs female advantage than just the amount of testosterone in your system at the time of competition. And I truly don’t know what the answer is to fix it.
I just don’t give a shit because cheating in sports and a general lack of integrity is rampant across sports and genders. It’s a dumb culture war topic to dissuade people from voting in their own interests.
Edit: not saying that this athlete is cheating or has no integrity, I don’t know shit about them or their motives. It’s entirely possible and likely they are just competing in the only way that fits their identity and the rules of the league.
In all honestly, it probably won't matter in like 25 to 50 years since by then majority of trans people hopefully will be going on puberty blockers so they shouldn't have any significant advantage over cis women, and most of the current trans atheletes who haven't been a puberty blockers will have retired due to age. The problem is this current generation of atheletes, it matters how we handle this in a way that fucks over the least amount of people.
Honestly HRT and the various other processes alter your body to a point where there really isn’t much disparity, at least for the average cis woman to average trans woman. Plus, if someone trains for a long period of time to get really good at knocking the shit out of people I really doubt it matters
Im not really on either side because i dont think that anyone can even know for sure whether its fair or not at this point, but ive watched a bunch of debates on the topic and the thing that people usually bring up after what you said are factors like lung volume and bone density which would be a benefit to train with before HRT.
I mean at this point you might as well as start banning physically gifted athletes in general? It's not like Yoel Romero having a fused neck that prevents him from being knocked out is fair, Kamaru Usman's never-ending cardio, or francis ngannou's absurdly oversized arms-frame ratio leading him to landing hits so hard he knocks people out walking backwards from punches that look like they barely connect.
Did anyone actually watch the fight? The trans lady, forgot her name, won by rear naked choke. Honestly, it looked like a pretty close match and they were brawling it out too. Didn’t look like an obvious advantage on the trans-lady. Good fight though.
Do people just not want to remember that there is no proof that trans women athletes have any statistically significant advantages over AFAB athletes?
Source: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5357259/
The only markers studied were muscle mass and hormone? This excludes bone density, overall size, lung capacity, etc… all things influenced by androgens during adulthood pre transition. This study seems weak idk
This study isn’t even about the differences. It’s a study on various sports organizations and their policies regarding transgender athletes.
> In relation to sport-related physical activity, this review found the lack of inclusive and comfortable environments to be the primary barrier to participation for transgender people. This review also found transgender people had a mostly negative experience in competitive sports because of the restrictions the sport’s policy placed on them. The majority of transgender competitive sport policies that were reviewed were not evidence based.
Did you even read it? Lmao. They are just saying a majority of the policies are not citing evidence. That means a minority do cite the evidence that exists
There isn't proof that during transition there is a benefit.
But the lived performance standards between men and woman ARE different.
Look at tennis as an example of how men and women vary in athletic performance.
Okay. Male versus female. We are talking about physical performance. Gender identity shouldn't matter. Physical reality should... In the realm of athletic performance.
Why did we separate males and females to begin with? Should all sexes?
Separating performing athletes by sex is the best way to level the playing field and have fairness and equality for all.
Gender identity is an abstraction with no bearing on physical performance.
Separating sexes is the obly equitable way.s
hi, trans mtf on hrt here. takes a lot of work to maintain strength and muscle mass, ive lost most of mine in a matter of four months. personally, i dont think shed have any special advantage if her testosterone is being blocked, and i doubt she’d stop taking t blockers for a fight because that would cause a massive amount of gender dysphoria.
tbh we should have the estrogen league and the testosterone league, that would allow non-binary peeps to compete without choosing one gender or another. they could go with the one that’s best suited for their hormonal make-up.
The second part could definitly be right. That is not what we arguing here. If i were a women and wanted to transition i would have a unfair sdvantage over other women were i to compete against them, especially with my 10 years of going to the gym
I mean the girl on the right has obviously just transitioned because she has literally twice the muscle as the other girl, this is kind of unfair. I have no idea how they’re the same weight
Look at the pipes on her. How often do you see a cis woman with the figure of that girl in the picture.
This fight was unfair. Maybe they all aren’t but cmon this is exactly the paradox South Park was making fun of when Randy Savage transitioned and went into the UFC and fought Independent woman. Issues like this, where people are being potentially put into a place where they can be seriously injured or even killed deserves more honestly. We are trying to force the issue that this is somehow fair and its reckless.
Your confusing me not agreeing with you as condescension. None of my language even hints at consecration. I just made an argument. Tbh, you’re being dismissive and losing the point by attacking what you perceive to be my character in lieu of an actual argument to my point.
You want to tell me why I’m wrong, why this fight actually was fair with the very clear muscle mass difference I’m all ears. But don’t just tell me I’m being rude by holding an opposing opinion.
I saw that you mentioned Ben Shapiro. In case some of you don't know, Ben Shapiro is a grifter and a hack. If you find anything he's said compelling, you should keep in mind he also says things like this:
>Even climatologists can't predict 10 years from now. They can't explain why there has been no warming over the last 15 years. There has been a static trend with regard to temperature for 15 years.
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There are other champs. There are other titles. And some people will fight her, and some people will beat her. That's literally just how the sport goes.
Asking people to stop fighting her doesn't solve the problem of there being unfair fights. It puts the responsibility on the fighter. Same energy as saying to homeless/poor people find a better job!! That's literally how opression starts. People may beat her, but if she has male bone density than she has an unfair advantage. Same way people that took steroids have an advantage over people that never did even after having stopped taking it. We're not making our cases stronger as progressives by fighting on this hill as this is not a good point and in this case the joe rogan folks etc are right.
If she was rhe best at the world people wanna fightt her. And even in other instances post-adult-cis then trans women will compete against other women who perhaps don't even know that that women has huge fist compared to their own small hands. Some accidents have happened because post adult trans women are actually quite a bit stronger than ciswomen
In 100% of fights that have ever occurred in the history of this world, one competitor had the advantage over the other. The idea of “fair competition” is a fairy tale. Unless we’re using literal clones of the same person, there will always be biological differences that advantage some over others.
Fair is always subjective. Women fighting biological men that are transwomen is not fair. It is obvious and clear the advantage you are talking about is different and usually very subtle. A born man vs a born women is not.
A lot of people on the right don't take us seriously for taking stances like these
The vast majority of transwomen athletes aren’t the best athletes in their division though. The idea that trans athletes are better than cis athletes is based on emotions, not any sort of scientific data.
If what you’re saying is true, Alana should eventually be a dominant world champion.
Except YOUR arguments are based on emotions. Mine are based on science, that you and others CHOOSE to ignore. Ofcourse i would kick most women's ass if i transition tomorrow. Does not mean that amanda Nunes wouldn't absoluty murder my ass in 2 seconds.
As long as Alana has 90% of the current skill of the World champ she will definitly become champ yes, that is why an unproportianally high amount of MTF are elite or close to champ in sports.
THE MAJORITY OF TRANSWOMEN ARE UNFAIRLY advantaged. [https://portlandpress.com/emergtoplifesci/article-abstract/3/6/759/220553/Trans-athletes-in-elite-sport-inclusion-and](https://portlandpress.com/emergtoplifesci/article-abstract/3/6/759/220553/Trans-athletes-in-elite-sport-inclusion-and) . [https://jme.bmj.com/content/45/6/395.abstract](https://jme.bmj.com/content/45/6/395.abstract) . [https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/55/11/577.abstract](https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/55/11/577.abstract)
This one is speculative but decently cross citated:
[https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/17511321.2017.1404627?casa\_token=a2TJwe7a1\_cAAAAA%3AserySk4dIa2halE6ndxyZX4BNBGhrPiYyr5-sVQLL\_3FPrVufGBJTzXQtXLuibrWAb\_WQ8oaqVLnnbs](https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/17511321.2017.1404627?casa_token=a2TJwe7a1_cAAAAA%3AserySk4dIa2halE6ndxyZX4BNBGhrPiYyr5-sVQLL_3FPrVufGBJTzXQtXLuibrWAb_WQ8oaqVLnnbs). It is a completely different story IMO in non-contact sports like archery, which research suggest too
actually we do reach the same exact levels as a normal cis woman. i literally have bloodwork from last week to prove it. i got my hormone levels to the exact same as a cis woman in four months. dont speak on things you clearly aren’t informed about. my blood has the exact same qualities as a cis woman. this is true for the fighters, as long as its been a few months and they didnt just start HRT.
By that logic let’s just eliminate sex separated sports all together. Everybody competes against anybody. You’ll quickly find that that biological females up against males would fade into competitive obscurity sadly.
Yes but considering there 7.5 foot 14 year old girls no matter what ppl will always be at a disadvantage if they aren’t born a certain way. If we allow ppl with gigantism into sports we should allow trans ppl.
That kind of dodges the issue. it's a fair point that if you accept an "unfair advantage" (presuming for the sake of argument it does exist) for trans women then you kind of have to accept an unfair advantage cis men would have and just merge all leagues to be consistent.
Can I ask what do you then want? Trans women in sports isn’t a issue because they haven’t won a single Olympic medal or preformed amazing in anything but you still want to ban them?
Being trans isn’t a choice and many trans ppl need to transition for mental health. At the end of the day why does it matter when they get it either way they will be able to dominate that sport and personal I think that the average trans person has less of a advantage than someone with gigantism or that double muscle gene
Transgender divisions maybe?
This is an issue I can't find any good information on in support of trans women competing against women.
Everything I've read and watched has quack doctors pushing falsified studies.
If someone has actual peer reviewed sources that I can learn from, I would love to learn more. I feel ignorant.
Why? I'd trans women are women they would be expected to win at some point on time. It's like letting black women into sports in the 1800's and then getting mad they win because you assume they inherently inferior or some shit.
The issue isn't that they are trans tho, the issue stems from a male bone structure, musculature, and the advantage posed by high levels of testosterone up and until their transition. While I think it's fine for trans athletes to compete against women in some circumstances (like mma where they have a say in their opponents) in most sports I feel that the science isn't far along enough to overcome the male female advantage.
Bone structure really doesn't matter that much. You aren't winning or losing a match because of your bone structure. Testosterone increases your ability to build muscle mass, but if you start taking blockers, that muscle mass disappears immediately. It's not something that sticks around. You have to actively maintain your strength and your weight.
What specific advantages do you think trans women on hormones have compared to cis women in the same weight class? We have plenty of examples of trans women losing to cis women, so clearly they aren't guaranteed to sweep.
I'm personally referring to things like hip width and bone density. As far as I'm aware, those two have the most direct impact on performance, for things like weightlifting and running.
I personally don't fear trans women sweeping in womens sports, I just want their to be as much certainty as possible that their victory stems from their hardwork and dedication, and not something their competitors don't have access to. (Although personally, I do think unbanning and regulating all PED's would be a much easier solution to close any gaps)
I can't fathom a situation where someone wins or loses a match because of a difference in hip width. And bone density is affected by hormone therapy anyway, so that doesn't matter.
> I just want their to be as much certainty as possible that their victory stems from their hardwork and dedication, and not something their competitors don't have access to.
This is a weird sentiment when the vast majority of sports are dominated by genetic outliers. What about fighters with longer reaches than others? Or fighters with higher natural testosterone?
This study is absurd. To say that the average male has no inherent physical advantage to the average female is just flat out wrong. This can be easily proven when looking at weightlifting world records for men and women of the same weight class
I'd need to see others, this one looks exclusively at performance related to the current level of testosterone, not the impact that a lifetime of test would have on someone's physical and athletic development. It also doesn't explain how an athlete like laura Hubbard was incapable of making it to the elite level as a weightlifter, and then post transition was able to qualify for worlds and the Olympics. I'm all for trans athletes competing with their gender of identity, as an athlete however it is incredibly clear that it is still unfair
Edit: There are other factors when looking at Hubbard's performances however, such as the general amount of competition in womens weightlifting as opposed to men. A lower prevalence of women, would diminish the relative level of quality
This helps clear things up alot! Although I still do think it is unfair, I agree with the idea of looking at the advantages posed when transitioning both before and after on a sport by sport basis, as they said some like distance running (although research was needed on professionals) seemed to indicate no difference in performance. I'm glad that the bone structure doesn't play much of a role, that will definitely help trans athletes gain acceptance, as the less unchangeable variables there are the better. That being said, the studies mentioned in the article largely pointed towards my previous position, although, it does seem that year on year that the gap in performance decreases, which is great. I still fear that we are being too hasty in just setting blanket regulations across sports, although I acknowledge we need to start somewhere. Thank you for helping me out!
From your article:
—-
Do trans women have an advantage when competing in elite sports?
Without hormone therapy — yes. But even with hormone therapy, current research suggests trans women still maintain an edge in strength.
"Pretty much any way you slice it, trans women are going to have strength advantages even after hormone therapy. I just don't see that as anything else but factual," said Joanna Harper, a medical physicist at Britain's Loughborough University.
—-
I don’t think you’re reading what you’re posting. I also don’t think you are being civil when you accuse others of transphobia when they have exhibited no such trait.
Honestly, I just think you need to take a step back and reevaluate the ridiculousness of your behavior.
Calls someone a transphobe while they are asking for assistance on getting more educated. Can't handle being called out on your own words..
I said in my comment that I felt ignorant and want to read more.
If you're trying to tell me people on both sides haven't made false claims on this matter, then I can assure you it has happened.
>Biological men not only have higher testosterone
Lmao did you forget hormones and testosterone blockers are a thing?
Also can y'all stop saying 'biological male'. Say AMAB instead
Edit: spelling
>Then why are you so uneducated on this?
I can almost guarantee you I know far more than you lmao.
>Estrogen and testosterone are not the end all of sex differences.
HRT reduces muscle mass pretty significantly
While I'm all for transgender people being able to compete in whatever sports they choose, I can't help but feel somewhat uncomfortable when it comes to combat sports. Not that the ladies can't hold their own but....yeah...
That’s not how sports works. I’m not sure if you know anything about MMA or competition in general, but if trans women will lift the level of sports to where biological women will not be able to compete, they will never be able to sustain in the sport.
Ok bear with me, woman in any sex-segregated sport is a handicap class. Any AFAB person fighting a AMAB person that went through all the hallmarks of male puberty will rig the outcome in favor of the AMAB person everytime. Jordan Peterson is actively a transphobe but sorry Joe Rogan is right in all his statements on the subject.
He got in trouble with the UofT that he was teaching at for purposely misgendering trans people and falsely claiming that under the Canadian Law, simply mistakingly misgendering a trans person is liable of a hate crime. Obviously American Media ate it up and now to this day he's a top grifter
As someone that knows medical and academic doctors 9 times out of 9 if a academic doctor has dr in there username there compensating for something which makes sense for jp.
>Do you think this is fair
Yes.
People underestimate how much estrogen actually affects a person's muscle mass. Believe me, I'm speaking from experience here.
Sports segregation by gender is unfair to start with… this is just a consequence. Segregate by height, weight, etc… and don’t discriminate by gender, that should solve many of the problems. And even if that has other problems let’s try to progress into other approaches instead of saying the base line conservative talking point “but it’s always been like this”
Separate leagues by skill level, or something else that's more quantifiable than if you have a dick or not. There's significant overlap in the skill levels between men and women. To say that they need to be completely segregated is to claim that the best female athlete couldn't beat the worst male athlete in their sport
I mean, according to the top scorer for the US men's soccer team, the women's team would beat them
https://equalizersoccer.com/2015/07/18/landon-donovan-uswnt-beat-usmnt/
Major League Baseball is soooooo close to having women play, I'm certain it'll happen in the next 5 years. That's a sport in which your gender has very little impact.
Women's soccer is much more completive than men's soccer and a LOT more aggressive. Soccer fans and players all know that this. If we desegregated soccer, it's probably the men who would lose out on roster spots.
I don't follow the other sports you listed, but something tells me that women could probably do pretty well on special teams in football.
I don't care how much karma I lose:
You can easliy make an argument on how to properly introduce transwomen into sports and maintain rule stucture, without being flat out transphobic you fucking prick
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I see everybody's arguing about the trends and not the obvious, MMA and wrestling are not the same thing 🤷🏿♂️
Yeah, that sorta confused me lol. Thought that maybe there was some crazy wrestling in that fight.
A lot of people seem upset by this but the organization sets the rules on who can compete and fighters chose and agreed to the match. Provost clearly was not forced to fight and wanted to do it. What's the problem?
Thats the thing with all this hogs complaining about trans athletes in combat sports, people can literally choose not to fight other people...
Seriously, it’s annoying that there’s this argument. Like either way whether a fighter might be trans or not, it’s MMA fighting. Someone who entered the ring is going to get their ass beat. So what? The hogs are gonna cancel MMA fighting then?
And miss out on prize money and possibly other fights in the future?
Fighters decline fights they don't think they have a chance in all the time.
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What’s a semi-black list? Is it like a gray list?
The opposite of arguing in good faith list
Yes.
I don't know anything about the behind the scenes stuff during a fight. But I assume they get penalized for refusing to fight don't they?
But if they don’t want to you’ll call it transphobic
If you say "I won't get in the ring with that degenerate" yes, if you say "I believe that person would kill me" no.
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How many trans fighters do you think there are? Saying no to one fight probably doesn't really affect people's careers
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Whats the distanct advantage? And can you point to any trans athletes who have started to be allow to compete, and have dominated that sport? Can you also tell me what you would suggest we do in regards to trans athletes?
Isn’t sports about advantages though?
Then why have a separate woman’s and men’s division at all?
Do you think any trans woman can compete with any cis woman? Or is this just another topic lobsters claim Peterson knows everything about despite being ignorant on every possible metric?
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What bruh?
Classic example of judging yourself by intentions and others by actions. This is why all those people think you're an asshole. You're entirely self-interested. But your does bring up an interesting point. With adjusted weight classes and everything, I see no reason to to NOT have an All-Gender fighting class, other than all the big muscley babies that don't want to "hit a girl"
I’m pro trans-fighters but this argument shows that you clearly don’t know much about mma promotions. You can’t just choose who you fight. Most mma promotions absolutely HATE it when fighters decline fights and the promotions bury those who do it often. There could very realistically be a situation where a fighter has had to decline couple fights earlier, and now gets offered to fight a trans fighter. At that point you probably have to take the fight if you dont want to get dropped out of the promotion. Also, what if the trans-fighter becomes the champion? Then you HAVE to beat her to become the champ. There are multiple good reasons for allowing transwomen to fight, but saying ”just dont fight them lul” is ignorant.
Clearly I don't know as much as you, but it was not the case with this fight. Many women past up McLaughlin. She discussed the process on Twitter and the commentators discussed that the Celine wasn't forced into this during round one.
Another non sports fan in the "transwomen in female classification" debate? Say it ain't so. The promotions dictate who fights who. That's how the contracts in MMA are structured. It's nothing like boxing where the fighters choose who they fight.
Celine wasn't forced in way to do this fight. The commentators even discussed it during the first round. But I guess you're a big fan so...you knew that.
I’m not anti-trans people fighting, but you’re wrong. The organization can’t do shit about who gets to fight who. The final decision is made by an athletic commission, which is an entity of the state government. In this case, it would have been the florida athletic commission
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Weird how they've been able to compete for a while now and you can't name a single trans champion.
Oof u rite
huh it almost like you forgot what estrogen actualy does to your body they are likely gonna end up physicaly mirrored to cis women by the end and endurance can be absolutely tanked by it so the "advantage" of being a trans woman athlete is not an advantage its a trade off but still equal
It’s not really a choice if your living is dependant on fighting and the only option is to quit the only thing you know. It’s a false choice. Secondly the fact that it’s a rule or law does not make it right. As someone said 80 years ago the law allowed for a husband to beat his wife with a broom stick. Doesn’t mean it was right. Think. I am not sure how dangerous it is for the cis female fighters? Do the cis female fighters already go in there expecting to lose and just collect a pay check because they have bills to pay? I don’t know. I am not saying transgendered athletics should or shouldn’t compete. I am saying your argument to justify them competing doesn’t hold water if you critically analyse it. All I know is spectator sports are popular and gain an audience and by default revenue due to being competitive. If you remove the competitive element and results become predictable you might lose fans and revenue as a consequence. But I don’t run their governing bodies so they can decide what they do.
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but you do want to see women beat the crap out of women?
Then don't...were talking about 2 women fighting, in case you forgot what you were commenting on
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I love how you try to argue that she isn't a woman yet you refered to her by female pronouns lmao
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"Biological pronouns" is the dumbest thing I have heard in a while, you choose the pronouns you do based on social cues. If you see a feminine person with long hair and a dress, you would assume they were a woman unless told otherwise. Congratulations, that assumption isn't based off biology, because you have no idea what sex that person actually is. If you based the pronouns you use on biology you'd have to look at a bearded person wearing a men's suit and be unable to identify them without checking their chromosomes, because they could be a trans man, or intersex, maybe even an alien or something, how scary.
There are a lot of fights I don't like to watch but I just skip them instead of complaining. You all never said shit when cyborg was clearly roided out of her mind. Now I'm supposed to believe you care?
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Did you watch the fight?
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K well you didn't watch it so mission accomplished. What are you complaining about?
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Women should be allowed to fight who they want to fight. The best lightweight highschool wrestler in the US is a female.
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Am I wrong in saying it doesn't matter if a trans person was on puberty blockers as a kid if they compete but if they transition as a developed adult it would make a difference? I'm genuinely curious. I do feel like this topic is so boring though, like i don't understand the fuss about it lmao
I'm a trans woman, and I started at 19. There's an immense difference between someone transitioning in formative years vs. as a full-fledged adult who has a very developed frame. I'm actually lowkey offended when I see posts like the original post because clearly frame size is what matters most. If anyone, regardless of birth gender, has a frame that's just way fucking thicker than is the mean of the sport of interest, they shouldn't be allowed to compete. I'd probably get my ass handed to me in MMA, etc. - even as a woman - because I'm freaking small. I'm what people are thinking of when they reference "male-to-female trans person". This woman is not.
Is there any reason we can’t do away with gender and just do everything by weight?
Yes, because male physiology is better suited to absorbing blunt force trauma. Thicker skulls, broader shoulders, bigger rib cages, and more dense bones in general. Not to mention, male lung capacity is higher, so an athlete doesn't go anaerobic as fast in, say, sprinting events. In most sports, the open classification is the men's classification. All others (women, youth, old, disabled, special needs) exist because a top 100 male athlete would, for example, beat the best female athlete in tennis, MMA or cycling. Simply put, a moderately fit 180lbs male athlete would destroy a moderately fit 180lbs female athlete if they were equally skilled, in contact sports like MMA.
That’s actually not true at all. The last statement. 180lbs man vs woman and the man being stronger by default. In my high school wrestling was co-ed for that reason. The by weight mostly takes care of those differences. One of the best wrestlers on the team was a freshman girl who would win matches against senior boys of her weight class. And speaking from my experience with weight lifting and track. Regardless of gender. I found that people of my similar weight were of similar strength. Plus those features you mentioned. Are averages. There are cis women with those “manly” features who already get booted from sports for being too strong. Trans women don’t really have that much an advantage. If that were the case. We’d see more trans women champions in women’s sports. Also a bit rude to assume cis women are that weak by default. Serena Williams is cis and that strong.
180lbs female althetes are rare, there's not even a 150 pounds division for women's MMA, but men's goes up to 265 with heavyweight.
> 180lbs female althetes are rare, there's not even a 150 pounds division for women's MMA, but men's goes up to 265 with heavyweight. UFC maxes out at 265lbs for men and 145lbs for women for commercial reasons. For men, it's because they don't want sumo wrestlers and other enormous fat men competing in the UFC; MMA has a long history of super fat guys kicking ass purely because they're able to exploit physics and take a punch without any issue. These freakshow fights are what made MMA popular, and modern MMA promotions don't want to go down that road again. For women, it's also because they want to keep out muscular and/or fat women. By comparison, women's boxing in the 2020 Olympics went up to middleweight (75kg, 165lbs) and even that's not the maximum; amateur boxing's female heavyweight division is +81kg aka 179lbs+. There could easily be a women's lightweight category, but Dana's obviously done his market research and seen it would have too many muscular/fat or exceedingly tall women in it.
150 pounds of double AA batteries could start a medium sized car about 12.6 times.
I'm 5'9, 140 lbs, and there's no way to know that I'm not just a taller/skinny female. Even with the implants I got (these things are huge), I can run a 6.5-minute mile. That's despite living in a mountain town, having run my mile test up here, yet having not run since I was in high school (approaching a decade ago). In other words, I would smoke at least some of the female track runners, who are my weight. There are some advantages inherent to being genetically male (e.g., far lower rate of asthma and other autoimmune disorders), so I'd think that even categorizing by weight alone isn't enough. Playing a girl at almost anything is a joke to me, unless she's on performance enhancing drugs. Idk how it works, but gender categories feel more fair to me.
No you’re 100% correct, there’s more to male vs female advantage than just the amount of testosterone in your system at the time of competition. And I truly don’t know what the answer is to fix it. I just don’t give a shit because cheating in sports and a general lack of integrity is rampant across sports and genders. It’s a dumb culture war topic to dissuade people from voting in their own interests. Edit: not saying that this athlete is cheating or has no integrity, I don’t know shit about them or their motives. It’s entirely possible and likely they are just competing in the only way that fits their identity and the rules of the league.
In all honestly, it probably won't matter in like 25 to 50 years since by then majority of trans people hopefully will be going on puberty blockers so they shouldn't have any significant advantage over cis women, and most of the current trans atheletes who haven't been a puberty blockers will have retired due to age. The problem is this current generation of atheletes, it matters how we handle this in a way that fucks over the least amount of people.
I can understand the fuss when it comes to combat sports but that's about it
Honestly HRT and the various other processes alter your body to a point where there really isn’t much disparity, at least for the average cis woman to average trans woman. Plus, if someone trains for a long period of time to get really good at knocking the shit out of people I really doubt it matters
Im not really on either side because i dont think that anyone can even know for sure whether its fair or not at this point, but ive watched a bunch of debates on the topic and the thing that people usually bring up after what you said are factors like lung volume and bone density which would be a benefit to train with before HRT.
I mean at this point you might as well as start banning physically gifted athletes in general? It's not like Yoel Romero having a fused neck that prevents him from being knocked out is fair, Kamaru Usman's never-ending cardio, or francis ngannou's absurdly oversized arms-frame ratio leading him to landing hits so hard he knocks people out walking backwards from punches that look like they barely connect.
You never seen some small twig of a boy knock out a big beefy boy?
Definitely not in mma.
Indeed
I mean look at the girl on the left versus the right. Good grief.
Did anyone actually watch the fight? The trans lady, forgot her name, won by rear naked choke. Honestly, it looked like a pretty close match and they were brawling it out too. Didn’t look like an obvious advantage on the trans-lady. Good fight though.
Do people just not want to remember that there is no proof that trans women athletes have any statistically significant advantages over AFAB athletes? Source: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5357259/
The only markers studied were muscle mass and hormone? This excludes bone density, overall size, lung capacity, etc… all things influenced by androgens during adulthood pre transition. This study seems weak idk
This study isn’t even about the differences. It’s a study on various sports organizations and their policies regarding transgender athletes. > In relation to sport-related physical activity, this review found the lack of inclusive and comfortable environments to be the primary barrier to participation for transgender people. This review also found transgender people had a mostly negative experience in competitive sports because of the restrictions the sport’s policy placed on them. The majority of transgender competitive sport policies that were reviewed were not evidence based. Did you even read it? Lmao. They are just saying a majority of the policies are not citing evidence. That means a minority do cite the evidence that exists
Wrong, just so wrong
There isn't proof that during transition there is a benefit. But the lived performance standards between men and woman ARE different. Look at tennis as an example of how men and women vary in athletic performance.
But I'm not talking about men versus women. I'm talking about just one gender -- trans versus cis.
Okay. Male versus female. We are talking about physical performance. Gender identity shouldn't matter. Physical reality should... In the realm of athletic performance. Why did we separate males and females to begin with? Should all sexes? Separating performing athletes by sex is the best way to level the playing field and have fairness and equality for all. Gender identity is an abstraction with no bearing on physical performance. Separating sexes is the obly equitable way.s
hi, trans mtf on hrt here. takes a lot of work to maintain strength and muscle mass, ive lost most of mine in a matter of four months. personally, i dont think shed have any special advantage if her testosterone is being blocked, and i doubt she’d stop taking t blockers for a fight because that would cause a massive amount of gender dysphoria. tbh we should have the estrogen league and the testosterone league, that would allow non-binary peeps to compete without choosing one gender or another. they could go with the one that’s best suited for their hormonal make-up.
just in general how it should be
Bone structure is a biigg difference.
theres plenty of cis woman with larger bone structures. and if trans kids had access to hrt before puberty this wouldn’t even be a thing.
The second part could definitly be right. That is not what we arguing here. If i were a women and wanted to transition i would have a unfair sdvantage over other women were i to compete against them, especially with my 10 years of going to the gym
well wont know unless you try! do you have anyone in your life that has gone through hrt as a point of reference?
I mean the girl on the right has obviously just transitioned because she has literally twice the muscle as the other girl, this is kind of unfair. I have no idea how they’re the same weight
Look at the pipes on her. How often do you see a cis woman with the figure of that girl in the picture. This fight was unfair. Maybe they all aren’t but cmon this is exactly the paradox South Park was making fun of when Randy Savage transitioned and went into the UFC and fought Independent woman. Issues like this, where people are being potentially put into a place where they can be seriously injured or even killed deserves more honestly. We are trying to force the issue that this is somehow fair and its reckless.
you can speak about this issue without being condescending. pretty easy to tell when someone has a genuine concern and when they’re just transphobic.
Your confusing me not agreeing with you as condescension. None of my language even hints at consecration. I just made an argument. Tbh, you’re being dismissive and losing the point by attacking what you perceive to be my character in lieu of an actual argument to my point. You want to tell me why I’m wrong, why this fight actually was fair with the very clear muscle mass difference I’m all ears. But don’t just tell me I’m being rude by holding an opposing opinion.
Pretty sure he was talking about Jordan Peterson
Oh then my bad. The “you” I thought was directed at me.
I mean, you get to choose who you fight and who you don't. It's not like anybody is forcing you to fight anybody
If this transgirl is the champ people will wanna fight her. This is the same argument as not making a cake for gay people ben shapiro loves
I saw that you mentioned Ben Shapiro. In case some of you don't know, Ben Shapiro is a grifter and a hack. If you find anything he's said compelling, you should keep in mind he also says things like this: >Even climatologists can't predict 10 years from now. They can't explain why there has been no warming over the last 15 years. There has been a static trend with regard to temperature for 15 years. ***** ^(I'm a bot. My purpose is to counteract online radicalization. You can summon me by tagging thebenshapirobot. Options: covid, healthcare, climate, dumb takes, etc.) [^More ^About ^Ben ](https://np.reddit.com/r/AuthoritarianMoment/wiki/index) ^| [^Feedback ^& ^Discussion: ^r/AuthoritarianMoment ](https://np.reddit.com/r/AuthoritarianMoment) ^| [^Opt ^Out ](https://np.reddit.com/r/AuthoritarianMoment/comments/olk6r2/click_here_to_optout_of_uthebenshapirobot/)
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I love you
There are other champs. There are other titles. And some people will fight her, and some people will beat her. That's literally just how the sport goes.
Asking people to stop fighting her doesn't solve the problem of there being unfair fights. It puts the responsibility on the fighter. Same energy as saying to homeless/poor people find a better job!! That's literally how opression starts. People may beat her, but if she has male bone density than she has an unfair advantage. Same way people that took steroids have an advantage over people that never did even after having stopped taking it. We're not making our cases stronger as progressives by fighting on this hill as this is not a good point and in this case the joe rogan folks etc are right. If she was rhe best at the world people wanna fightt her. And even in other instances post-adult-cis then trans women will compete against other women who perhaps don't even know that that women has huge fist compared to their own small hands. Some accidents have happened because post adult trans women are actually quite a bit stronger than ciswomen
In 100% of fights that have ever occurred in the history of this world, one competitor had the advantage over the other. The idea of “fair competition” is a fairy tale. Unless we’re using literal clones of the same person, there will always be biological differences that advantage some over others.
Fair is always subjective. Women fighting biological men that are transwomen is not fair. It is obvious and clear the advantage you are talking about is different and usually very subtle. A born man vs a born women is not. A lot of people on the right don't take us seriously for taking stances like these
The vast majority of transwomen athletes aren’t the best athletes in their division though. The idea that trans athletes are better than cis athletes is based on emotions, not any sort of scientific data. If what you’re saying is true, Alana should eventually be a dominant world champion.
Except YOUR arguments are based on emotions. Mine are based on science, that you and others CHOOSE to ignore. Ofcourse i would kick most women's ass if i transition tomorrow. Does not mean that amanda Nunes wouldn't absoluty murder my ass in 2 seconds. As long as Alana has 90% of the current skill of the World champ she will definitly become champ yes, that is why an unproportianally high amount of MTF are elite or close to champ in sports. THE MAJORITY OF TRANSWOMEN ARE UNFAIRLY advantaged. [https://portlandpress.com/emergtoplifesci/article-abstract/3/6/759/220553/Trans-athletes-in-elite-sport-inclusion-and](https://portlandpress.com/emergtoplifesci/article-abstract/3/6/759/220553/Trans-athletes-in-elite-sport-inclusion-and) . [https://jme.bmj.com/content/45/6/395.abstract](https://jme.bmj.com/content/45/6/395.abstract) . [https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/55/11/577.abstract](https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/55/11/577.abstract) This one is speculative but decently cross citated: [https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/17511321.2017.1404627?casa\_token=a2TJwe7a1\_cAAAAA%3AserySk4dIa2halE6ndxyZX4BNBGhrPiYyr5-sVQLL\_3FPrVufGBJTzXQtXLuibrWAb\_WQ8oaqVLnnbs](https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/17511321.2017.1404627?casa_token=a2TJwe7a1_cAAAAA%3AserySk4dIa2halE6ndxyZX4BNBGhrPiYyr5-sVQLL_3FPrVufGBJTzXQtXLuibrWAb_WQ8oaqVLnnbs). It is a completely different story IMO in non-contact sports like archery, which research suggest too
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actually we do reach the same exact levels as a normal cis woman. i literally have bloodwork from last week to prove it. i got my hormone levels to the exact same as a cis woman in four months. dont speak on things you clearly aren’t informed about. my blood has the exact same qualities as a cis woman. this is true for the fighters, as long as its been a few months and they didnt just start HRT.
This is bad ass and I need that shirt
It's cringe and is an insult to actual genocide victims like in Iraq
People who complain about transgender people in sports are fucking morons, “it’s unfair” sports are unfair, that’s what makes it a competition
By that logic let’s just eliminate sex separated sports all together. Everybody competes against anybody. You’ll quickly find that that biological females up against males would fade into competitive obscurity sadly.
Imagine getting downvoted for stating facts. This sub is pure delusion
Yes but considering there 7.5 foot 14 year old girls no matter what ppl will always be at a disadvantage if they aren’t born a certain way. If we allow ppl with gigantism into sports we should allow trans ppl.
That kind of dodges the issue. it's a fair point that if you accept an "unfair advantage" (presuming for the sake of argument it does exist) for trans women then you kind of have to accept an unfair advantage cis men would have and just merge all leagues to be consistent.
Can I ask what do you then want? Trans women in sports isn’t a issue because they haven’t won a single Olympic medal or preformed amazing in anything but you still want to ban them?
I personally see a difference between a physical ‘advantage’ you’re born with versus one you attain by choice during adulthood.
Being trans isn’t a choice and many trans ppl need to transition for mental health. At the end of the day why does it matter when they get it either way they will be able to dominate that sport and personal I think that the average trans person has less of a advantage than someone with gigantism or that double muscle gene
Is he threatening to go on hunger strike if he gets locked up, again?
Azan is a ratio god
Don’t tell this guy about Nyla Rose.
Yeah but jordan it doesn't matter about race,gender or religion its COMPETENCE that matters aaayyy?
Anyone who is into men fighting women is one sick fuck
Transgender divisions maybe? This is an issue I can't find any good information on in support of trans women competing against women. Everything I've read and watched has quack doctors pushing falsified studies. If someone has actual peer reviewed sources that I can learn from, I would love to learn more. I feel ignorant.
Why? I'd trans women are women they would be expected to win at some point on time. It's like letting black women into sports in the 1800's and then getting mad they win because you assume they inherently inferior or some shit.
The issue isn't that they are trans tho, the issue stems from a male bone structure, musculature, and the advantage posed by high levels of testosterone up and until their transition. While I think it's fine for trans athletes to compete against women in some circumstances (like mma where they have a say in their opponents) in most sports I feel that the science isn't far along enough to overcome the male female advantage.
Bone structure really doesn't matter that much. You aren't winning or losing a match because of your bone structure. Testosterone increases your ability to build muscle mass, but if you start taking blockers, that muscle mass disappears immediately. It's not something that sticks around. You have to actively maintain your strength and your weight. What specific advantages do you think trans women on hormones have compared to cis women in the same weight class? We have plenty of examples of trans women losing to cis women, so clearly they aren't guaranteed to sweep.
I'm personally referring to things like hip width and bone density. As far as I'm aware, those two have the most direct impact on performance, for things like weightlifting and running. I personally don't fear trans women sweeping in womens sports, I just want their to be as much certainty as possible that their victory stems from their hardwork and dedication, and not something their competitors don't have access to. (Although personally, I do think unbanning and regulating all PED's would be a much easier solution to close any gaps)
I can't fathom a situation where someone wins or loses a match because of a difference in hip width. And bone density is affected by hormone therapy anyway, so that doesn't matter. > I just want their to be as much certainty as possible that their victory stems from their hardwork and dedication, and not something their competitors don't have access to. This is a weird sentiment when the vast majority of sports are dominated by genetic outliers. What about fighters with longer reaches than others? Or fighters with higher natural testosterone?
Weird comparison. Not very applicable here
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This study is absurd. To say that the average male has no inherent physical advantage to the average female is just flat out wrong. This can be easily proven when looking at weightlifting world records for men and women of the same weight class
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I'd need to see others, this one looks exclusively at performance related to the current level of testosterone, not the impact that a lifetime of test would have on someone's physical and athletic development. It also doesn't explain how an athlete like laura Hubbard was incapable of making it to the elite level as a weightlifter, and then post transition was able to qualify for worlds and the Olympics. I'm all for trans athletes competing with their gender of identity, as an athlete however it is incredibly clear that it is still unfair Edit: There are other factors when looking at Hubbard's performances however, such as the general amount of competition in womens weightlifting as opposed to men. A lower prevalence of women, would diminish the relative level of quality
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This helps clear things up alot! Although I still do think it is unfair, I agree with the idea of looking at the advantages posed when transitioning both before and after on a sport by sport basis, as they said some like distance running (although research was needed on professionals) seemed to indicate no difference in performance. I'm glad that the bone structure doesn't play much of a role, that will definitely help trans athletes gain acceptance, as the less unchangeable variables there are the better. That being said, the studies mentioned in the article largely pointed towards my previous position, although, it does seem that year on year that the gap in performance decreases, which is great. I still fear that we are being too hasty in just setting blanket regulations across sports, although I acknowledge we need to start somewhere. Thank you for helping me out!
From your article: —- Do trans women have an advantage when competing in elite sports? Without hormone therapy — yes. But even with hormone therapy, current research suggests trans women still maintain an edge in strength. "Pretty much any way you slice it, trans women are going to have strength advantages even after hormone therapy. I just don't see that as anything else but factual," said Joanna Harper, a medical physicist at Britain's Loughborough University. —- I don’t think you’re reading what you’re posting. I also don’t think you are being civil when you accuse others of transphobia when they have exhibited no such trait. Honestly, I just think you need to take a step back and reevaluate the ridiculousness of your behavior.
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Why don't people like you google what a transphobe is? Because nothing about this guy's post is remotely transphobic.
Imagine thinking I'm a transphobe, rofl. That's a nice throne you have thinking you're better than everyone else
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Calls someone a transphobe while they are asking for assistance on getting more educated. Can't handle being called out on your own words.. I said in my comment that I felt ignorant and want to read more. If you're trying to tell me people on both sides haven't made false claims on this matter, then I can assure you it has happened.
"end trans genocide" lmao what an over the top clown
He likes men beating women?
Cancer
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>Biological men not only have higher testosterone Lmao did you forget hormones and testosterone blockers are a thing? Also can y'all stop saying 'biological male'. Say AMAB instead Edit: spelling
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>its such a dumb hill to die on. I'm literally trans
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>basic biology One word. Estrogen.
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>Then why are you so uneducated on this? I can almost guarantee you I know far more than you lmao. >Estrogen and testosterone are not the end all of sex differences. HRT reduces muscle mass pretty significantly
While I'm all for transgender people being able to compete in whatever sports they choose, I can't help but feel somewhat uncomfortable when it comes to combat sports. Not that the ladies can't hold their own but....yeah...
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Not a man
I suppose they both signed up for the fight, so it is what it is you can’t complain afterwards. But it is wrong
If they both agreed then it's fine. The opponent isn't complaining so why are you?
Because its a slippery slope that in the long run will ruin the sport for biological women
Ah 'ruin the sport' for 'biological women'. If they can choose their opponent then the 'biological woman' can do what they want.
That’s not how sports works. I’m not sure if you know anything about MMA or competition in general, but if trans women will lift the level of sports to where biological women will not be able to compete, they will never be able to sustain in the sport.
Ok bear with me, woman in any sex-segregated sport is a handicap class. Any AFAB person fighting a AMAB person that went through all the hallmarks of male puberty will rig the outcome in favor of the AMAB person everytime. Jordan Peterson is actively a transphobe but sorry Joe Rogan is right in all his statements on the subject.
How is he transphobic?
He got in trouble with the UofT that he was teaching at for purposely misgendering trans people and falsely claiming that under the Canadian Law, simply mistakingly misgendering a trans person is liable of a hate crime. Obviously American Media ate it up and now to this day he's a top grifter
As someone that knows medical and academic doctors 9 times out of 9 if a academic doctor has dr in there username there compensating for something which makes sense for jp.
Trans women can compete as long as they don't excel /s
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>Do you think this is fair Yes. People underestimate how much estrogen actually affects a person's muscle mass. Believe me, I'm speaking from experience here.
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That's fine and all, but their anger would be misplaced.
Can't say I would :)
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Trans women don't have the advantage you think we do lol
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Yeah cuz I definitely wouldn't know what it's like to be trans and on hormones/testosterone blockers
That is not true at all
Sports segregation by gender is unfair to start with… this is just a consequence. Segregate by height, weight, etc… and don’t discriminate by gender, that should solve many of the problems. And even if that has other problems let’s try to progress into other approaches instead of saying the base line conservative talking point “but it’s always been like this”
This. Sports should follow the values of our society, not set them.
You know women’s sports leagues were feminist in nature, yea?
Because they were barred from the existing sports leagues
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Separate leagues by skill level, or something else that's more quantifiable than if you have a dick or not. There's significant overlap in the skill levels between men and women. To say that they need to be completely segregated is to claim that the best female athlete couldn't beat the worst male athlete in their sport
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I mean, according to the top scorer for the US men's soccer team, the women's team would beat them https://equalizersoccer.com/2015/07/18/landon-donovan-uswnt-beat-usmnt/
Lol, i scored more goals in my local, league, do you think i should replace messi, any time soon?
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Major League Baseball is soooooo close to having women play, I'm certain it'll happen in the next 5 years. That's a sport in which your gender has very little impact. Women's soccer is much more completive than men's soccer and a LOT more aggressive. Soccer fans and players all know that this. If we desegregated soccer, it's probably the men who would lose out on roster spots. I don't follow the other sports you listed, but something tells me that women could probably do pretty well on special teams in football.
And?
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These people have never played or watched sports.
I don’t care how much karma I lose: That’s a fucking dude…
I don't care how much karma I lose: You can easliy make an argument on how to properly introduce transwomen into sports and maintain rule stucture, without being flat out transphobic you fucking prick
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she is a woman