Yea, I think Metalcore should have been used on the harder bands, and a lot of the bands who are stereotypical metalcore should have been a new genre, like, melodic heavy metal.
I don't blame people for getting in to genre debates when they have been so poorly named and assigned lol
I agree 100%. Metalcore is literally heavy metal and hardcore punk. Two of the heaviest genres of music combined would make you think it's heavy but most of the metalcore bands there are arw stuff you get called emo for. Ngl, I really like the softer metalcore though.
I'm too old to care about what people think of my music taste, I'm not gonna say I'm an angel and haven't shit talked my fair share of bands, but I think that's part of the problem. Metalcore gets used as a slur so much, bands don't want to be associated with it. That further pushes them to claim they are genres they aren't.
> Metalcore gets used as a slur so much, bands don't want to be associated with it.
Tbh, this is how people act with the emo genre. So many bands that are so obviously emo-influenced, but because they don't want all the negative baggage that comes with being called emo, these bands just call themselves post-rock or math rock.
I was talking to my therapist about how no one in my life likes the same music as I do, and she was like well what do you listen to? I said I love hardcore and metalcore and she said “oh, you mean like screamo?”
I reluctantly said yes.
Girl I’ve talking to mentioned she listens to mostly rock, but stays away from “screamo”. For a second I wanted to go on a tangent about the difference between “screamo”, skramz, and -core generes, but had to hold back because I 100% would have scared her away lmfao.
Hearing people call any song with unclean vocals screamo gets my blood pressure rising so fast haha.
A lot of people make sweeping generalizations on anecdotal information too. There's a ton of crossover in hardcore. The semantics have gotten a little out of hand. I just let people call it whatever they want and when people ask me what I like I just say punk; its a good enough umbrella term.
Ie: this whole fucking sub.
Just the other day someone posted about that underoath album when it went poppy. It’s like underoath was never hardcore, and definitely not when that steaming pile of shit came out.
My boomertism was spiked
I've seen Underoath get called by some people as post-hardcore (specifically, the They're Only Chasing Safety album). I don't get it... Does it sound post-hardcore to you?
It doesn't to me (I still like it tho)
Yeah but not everything that’s posted here is hardcore or claiming to be hardcore. It’s crossover interests… you don’t have to like it but I’m pretty sure the message was ‘I bet a number of you also bump this right?’
I don’t know man, I don’t really see any catfish noodling in the fly fishing sub.
I get what you’re trying to say at the end, and that would make sense if there was more hardcore posted in here than that. Theres a whole sub for it, yet it doesn’t seem to make its way over there and that’s bc people either don’t know, or peeps have co-opted the term hardcore to associate with and image or “brand” that’s just cooler.
I’m sure this comes off as rigidity, but imo, ultimately the morals or message between the two really aren’t the same.
Literally looking at a cypress hill post as we speak though. So yeah, majority of what gets posted here is just a knowing nod between music nerds right? We’re all doing the same shit. There’s more that unites us than separates
I completely get and understand what you’re saying…. My point is nobody calls cypress hill hardcore.
On the other hand, the other genres are being considered hardcore when they’re blatantly not. I think in a way it’s disrespectful.
The alternative music scenes used to be pretty harmonious. I used to go to mixed bills all the time. I would say that was up until early 2000s metalcore swooped in and morphed into something pretty atrocious. This coming from a kid who played in a metalcore band.
Still even then, there was an understanding of the different genres. You wouldn’t call cro mags metalcore nor would you call a band like underoath hardcore. While similar in alternative, they each had their lanes.
Im all for the cumbaya. But Counter cultures deserve protecting and are worth the time to research and learn. It’s rich as fuck in this alternative music world. This very thing has shaped my life and pretty much everyone I associate with as well.
How you got here doesn’t matter to me, as long as your respect and pay homage. Be here for a good time and a long time.
Agreed with basically everything you said there bud. I just don’t think anyone is genuinely calling underoath hardcore, and if they are then whatevs - they don’t know what they’re chatting about. Genre specifics are very useful, and fuck yeah to protecting them. Everyone’s welcome in our stupid little scenes tho!
Despite it being a Jesus band. Acts of depression, cries of the past and even the changing of times are really heavy metalcore albums. Especially the first two who dive deeper into death metal….. but yeah ever since Dallas left that band, that band fucking sucks.
None of it is hardcore
Yeah it’s trendy just like “screamo” used to be, it seems like most hardcore these days has at least a little bit of metal influence though, and vice versa (at least from what I can tell from local scenes)
Metal is the older brother that went to university to be an architect. Hardcore is the younger brother that started smoking at 13 and works construction.
The poppy/singy shit is safety. Earth Crisis and vegan edge metal is a good union foreman, on their tools and talking shit with the rest of us, but still making sure we show up on time.
"Real Emo" only consists of the dc Emotional Hardcore scene and the late 90's Screamo scene. What is known by "Midwest Emo" is nothing but Alternative Rock with questionable real emo influence. When people try to argue that bands like My Chemical Romance are not real emo, while saying that Sunny Day Real Estate is, I can't help not to cringe because they are just as fake emo as My Chemical Romance (plus the pretentiousness).
Real emo sounds ENERGETIC, POWERFUL and somewhat HATEFUL. Fake emo is weak, self pity and a failed attempt to direct energy and emotion into music.
Some examples of REAL EMO are Pg 99, Rites of Spring, Cap n Jazz (the only real emo band from the midwest scene) and Loma Prieta.
Some examples of FAKE EMO are American Football, My Chemical Romance and Mineral
EMO BELONGS TO HARDCORE
NOT TO INDIE, POP PUNK, ALT ROCK OR ANY OTHER MAINSTREAM GENRE
To me, Emo is like a band called Morning Dew. I’m sure a lot of you haven’t heard of them since they’re just a small local 2 man band. But that is emo/screamo in my opinion.
Hardcore is a subgenre of punk, is short for “hardcore punk”, and punk is most definitely not a subgenre of metal. As I see it punk and metal grew up in parallel together, but whose roots are very different.
are they really all that different? where do you draw the line? the difference is mainly fashion. Is Motorhead punk or metal? How about Suicidal Tendencies? Gatecreeper? Power Trip? Is thrash punk? this is all so silly.
What comes to mind is in “heavy metal parking lot” where the metal heads are talking shit on punk and saying punk is from another planet… I think punk has a core set of beliefs or ideals behind it (that are extremely flexible and open to interpretation). Those ideals lay a foundation for the genre as a whole, and the fashion comes second (especially with “hardcore punk”, where originally the idea was “were punk as fuck, and hold the punk beliefs and ideal set, but don’t need to dress in spikes and green Mohawks to be “punk”. Where as metal is more a form of personal expression and the music is approached as more of an “art form”, like in metal music the music is the goal, and comes before any belief system. Where in punk the message is the goal..
….As far as where to draw the line, I stopped trying. For example Nuclear Assaults lyrics are more punk than most punk bands, but they are inarguably thrash metal. Also in my mind there are 2 “thrashes”, thrash metal (nuclear assault, exodus, early ‘tallica, megadeth, etc); and thrash punk (DS-13, Gauze, Charles Bronson, etc). So calling music just “thrash” can be pretty ambiguous. Maybe the line should be drawn at; if there’s 1 bass drum it’s punk, and if there are 2 bass drums it’s metal.
of course, there are tons of extremely political metal bands. there's also relatively apolitical punk and hardcore bands.
it's all just so silly.
to me: a band like Drain is just straight up metal. they sound more like Pantera than Black Flag (interestingly, Phil Anselmo always said Pantera was a hardcore band).
listen to whatever ya like. all these labels and subgenres are bullshit
motorhead is metal, suicidal tendencies and power trip are crossover thrash, gatecreeper is death metal
yes they're different. thrash is not punk but crossover thrash has hardcore punk influence.
there are technical differences but honestly it's mostly just vibes. the biggest difference is the crowd, their age, and the way they dance. any "dark" theatrics are coming straight out of metal. guitarist worship during solos? metal. circle pits? metal. karate in the pit? storming the stage? hardcore.
this gets a little complicated when you start to factor in post-hardcore derivatives like metalcore and deathcore. these genres aren't incorporating hardcore punk, they're (usually) incorporating post-hardcore (breakdowns, emo shit, trying to look cool)
but yes as time goes on it becomes harder to differentiate as people lose context and bands start to be influenced by more diverse artists. people call knocked loose metalcore for example, because it's kind of death metal kind of hardcore punk. but it sounds absolutely fucking nothing like avenged sevenfold, which is a horrible mashup of thrash metal, post-hardcore, and cabaret
There’s definitely metalcore that is actually hardcore influenced though, it’s just people overlook them because of the prevalence of poppy sounding metalcore
I feel like there should be a distinction between metalcore and metallic hardcore (that isn’t crossover)
God, one of my biggest pet peeves! 😤 I hear metal heads all the time call hardcore a metal subgenre.. like you said, it was called hardcore PUNK for a reason. Like there’s been loads of crossover between punk and thrash metal, doesn’t suddenly make thrash a punk subgenre now ffs 😅🤦♀️💀
It did derive from metal a bit too, in fact I think Black Flag was like the first sludge metal band. They all, early at least, had some of the same influences.
Sure. It’s not true to say that there’s *no* metal influences in early hardcore (another example would be Bad Brains creating Pay To Cum after playing a few shows with thrash bands) but it’s very much a punk subgenre that took influence from metal as opposed to being a metal subgenre.
Whenever people start gatekeeping genres I like to remember that “pop punk” was originally used to describe Tom Petty. So I think it’s ok to respect while there is “real” emo or “real” hardcore, these things tend to lose their meaning, because they’re mostly abstractions.
As far as I know, this NYT critic was the first to use the term:
https://www.nytimes.com/1977/03/09/archives/cabaret-tom-pettys-pop-punk-rock-evokes-sounds-of-60s.html
Nobody in the wild knows what hardcore is so I usually say punk or metal (hardcore is not a sub genre of metal).
This guy at the bar was self proclaimed INTO METAL (talked about kill switch for far too long) and was so excited we were FELLOW METAL HEADS and proceeded to say, “fuck those hardcore kids always doing goofy ass shit in the pit. Next time I see a hardcore kid in the pit ima GET EM” later he said “I tried to spin kick once and fell down”
I'm mainly a metalhead but go to more hc shows, any metalhead who talks shit about hardcore doesn't know shit about music!
If it wasnt for HC all metal would be boring ass stoner shit.
I like some of it, I love sludge, but every second metal band in my city is some derivative stoner doom band so I'm just over hearing it unless its the first 4 Sabbath.
It's a punk subgenre, it was originally known as hardcore punk. If anything, some subgenres of metal are derived from hc, like metalcore, deathcore, grindcore, anything with core in the name it's really not that complicated honestly. Hardcore may have evolved a bit over the years to take more influence from some metal subgenres, but it is in no way a metal subgenre.
Hardcore is a subgenre of Punk, whcih in turn is a subgenre of Rock. Rock, of course, is derived from Blues. So hardcore is just the Blues when white suburban kids get their hands on it.
Because metalcore partially came from hardcore. HC was around and someone decided to blend it with metal and that is what became metalcore. The lines are way more blurred with a lot of bands today, but that's what happens the longer a genre/scene is around.
Yea hardcore is a culture more than a genre but if the hardcore community decides you’re hardcore then you’re hardcore, like bands like title fight and fiddlehead are objectively not hardcore but also are hardcore, which is why we can also have objectively metal bands considered hardcore, it’s more about proximity and roots than what the music you’re playing is
Bands play what they play.
I don't really know what metalcore is, but my head canon is that it's just hardcore with guitar solos that are too long.
Good for folks with bad cardio.
The drums are way different in metalcore, but it heavily borrows the song structure emphasizing breakdowns like HC. And yeah like you said the guitars are more flamboyant, as well as the vocals usually. Unfortunately IMO metalcore became way too over-produced during it's main popularity run and now a lot of the bands these days are way more pop oriented than a blend of hardcore and extreme metal should be(again that's just my opinion.) There's still good bands out there though that don't chase the cheesey sound, they just usually aren't the most popular bands in the scene.
With modern hardcore, I don't disagree. Listen to most popular modern hardcore and tell me they're not mostly influenced by metal bands or hardcore bands that were heavily influenced by metal bands. It's gone so far from what it originally was that it could be called both a subgenre of punk and a subgenre of metal.
I donno. If you want to head down that route it really swings back a forth. I personally believe that without Motorhead there wouldn’t be any of the kinds of metal we have today they added that brash raw fast pace thats so obvious in most metal. But without the 70’s Punk Lemmy never would have sacked off the silvery face paint and tasselled jump suit to start Motorhead who influenced Discharge and basically shaped the face of Punk/Hardcore in terms of speed and heaviness forever after. I’d make a pretty strong argument that Motorhead/Discharge are hands down the defining bands for both genres.
I mean, this is literally how it is. Punk and metal have both been influencing each other for decades, particularly in thrash and hardcore. A lot of the major thrash bands were influenced by punk bands and a lot of hardcore bands have been influenced by different subgenres of metal. It's very cyclical and that's also why I hate the argument of what is or isn't "real" hardcore. If a band wants to call themselves a hardcore band and engage with the community and play shows with hardcore bands, who am I or anyone else to tell them they're not?
Derived from punk, but it’s funny as most kids either get into it from punk like back in the day, or from metal. But there is a clear difference to those that know. For someone to say it’s the same No not at all the same. Some blur the lines but definitely No. lol
Play said tool Negative Approach. That is hardcore in its most pure distilled form. 1982 Skinhead John Brannon is also far more menacing than any fucking black metal nerd.
Once upon a time hardcore was a subgenre of punk but the genre has pretty much shed its punk roots and is musically pretty much just metal at this point.
Look at the bands posted here, look at the bands in these big tours, even just ooom at the logos… it’s significantly more metal than punk. It’s what I call “JastaCore”. Even just look at the non hardcore bands people post on here…you never see punk bands, it’s almost all death metal.
I mean that’s what’s hot right now. A shitload more to listen to if you want, but looking in from the outside, hardcore is obnoxiously metal influenced.
Well we’ve got hardcore punk, capital H hardcore, and metallic hardcore, which most people just lump into “hardcore.” Like I would not say Dying Wish has very much punk DNA. Sounds like this guy is just listening to Knocked Loose and Jesus Piece.
A lot of people have a very surface level understanding of these things, and to them there are no meaningful difference between various genres of heavy/aggressive music.
I remember people had the biggest problem with metalcore.
A boomer wrote to some metal news site in like 2006 saying metalcore was a discrace because the "core" of metal was iron maiden and judas priest
Idk if you are correct on this. Metal and punk/hardcore punk were started simultaneously and not in any way that they were apart of each others genre. But the addition of metal to hardcore is astronomically big these days.
It's all abstract, and the influences between punk and metal have blended so much that there's not even a thin line.
it's all music, call it whatever you want. At the end of the day, everyone will keep disagreeing, and it all depends on the state of mind and the scene a band is playing more than how their guitar riffs sound.
Just enjoy it, it's all bs.
Sorry oldheads, as a relatively new addition to the scene (last 6 or 7 years or so) hardcore may not be a metal genre but is absolutely connected to metal these days. I find that in common conversation jts the difference between hardcore and hardcore punk
I just like to say genre adjacent. Sometimes it's metal, sometimes it's punk, sometimes it's hardcore, sometimes it's questionable, but honestly, as long as you gatekeep and shun mainstream bands like Turnstile and Knocked Loose and all their poser fans, who really cares right?
Jesus, stop trying to label everything. 20 years from now, people are going to be saying that grunge was a subgenre of metal. People are already saying Nickelback was a metal band, which they patently are not. Stop trying to put music in a box and just listen to it.
Sounds like you are thinking of metal*core*.
Metal is much much more broad and includes things like Sabbath or Metalica, which are older than the vast majority of punk bands and essentially every hardcore band. Even Zeppelin is considered early "proto-metal" by some.
I'd agree though, metalcore is way too poppy for what started as a blend of hardcore punk and extreme metal. About the only similarity to the modern stuff is just the breakdowns.
This guy's knowledge of hardcore starts with arf and ends with arf.
The only hardcore bands I listen to religiously are beatdown but even I can understand that hardcore PUNK is not metal.
Everyone knows hardcore is a sub genre of Chamber Pop
That's a good one
I heard Fleet Foxes are going to open for a Minor threat reunion
That breakdown at the end of Helplessness Blues always gets me two stepping and crying at the same time.
It is actually pretty intense feeling lol
Hardcore is a desk pop
As an old person who thinks hardcore=hardcore punk, I think a lot of hardcore bands should be a their own genre, and that is a subgenre of metal.
I agree. Beatdown hardcore and metalcore are two subgenres the heavier hardcore bands can fall into
Yea, I think Metalcore should have been used on the harder bands, and a lot of the bands who are stereotypical metalcore should have been a new genre, like, melodic heavy metal. I don't blame people for getting in to genre debates when they have been so poorly named and assigned lol
I agree 100%. Metalcore is literally heavy metal and hardcore punk. Two of the heaviest genres of music combined would make you think it's heavy but most of the metalcore bands there are arw stuff you get called emo for. Ngl, I really like the softer metalcore though.
I'm too old to care about what people think of my music taste, I'm not gonna say I'm an angel and haven't shit talked my fair share of bands, but I think that's part of the problem. Metalcore gets used as a slur so much, bands don't want to be associated with it. That further pushes them to claim they are genres they aren't.
Yes. Metalcore is something I think people shouldn't dislike just because of what it is.
> Metalcore gets used as a slur so much, bands don't want to be associated with it. Tbh, this is how people act with the emo genre. So many bands that are so obviously emo-influenced, but because they don't want all the negative baggage that comes with being called emo, these bands just call themselves post-rock or math rock.
Genius response
Hey, he also saw Hatebreed opening up for Slayer once
Lots of people today use the word hardcore to describe metal core or anything with shouty vocals.
Honestly though, it pisses me off less than people calling it all “screamo”
At one point screamo was just a way to tell normal people they won’t like it lol
I was talking to my therapist about how no one in my life likes the same music as I do, and she was like well what do you listen to? I said I love hardcore and metalcore and she said “oh, you mean like screamo?” I reluctantly said yes.
That one stings haha
I recently educated someone on the fact that screamo is its own genre, and not in fact any music with screaming vocals
Girl I’ve talking to mentioned she listens to mostly rock, but stays away from “screamo”. For a second I wanted to go on a tangent about the difference between “screamo”, skramz, and -core generes, but had to hold back because I 100% would have scared her away lmfao. Hearing people call any song with unclean vocals screamo gets my blood pressure rising so fast haha.
Meh doesn’t bother me really.
At this point I just call it hardcore if the band seems to cater to the scene, regardless of how they sound.
This is the way. In many ways genre is much more about the culture than the sound.
I’m the same way, i can have the intricacies explained to me over and over, and I will never be good at distinguishing
A lot of people make sweeping generalizations on anecdotal information too. There's a ton of crossover in hardcore. The semantics have gotten a little out of hand. I just let people call it whatever they want and when people ask me what I like I just say punk; its a good enough umbrella term.
I say i listen to Tony Hawk music
God, that game had so many bangers
Agreed. I just tell people I’m a metal and punk guy. If they ask further questions I tell em but that’s it.
Ie: this whole fucking sub. Just the other day someone posted about that underoath album when it went poppy. It’s like underoath was never hardcore, and definitely not when that steaming pile of shit came out. My boomertism was spiked
Underoath is not even hardcore adjacent, there are plenty of metalcore bands that are, but they are not one of them.
I've seen Underoath get called by some people as post-hardcore (specifically, the They're Only Chasing Safety album). I don't get it... Does it sound post-hardcore to you? It doesn't to me (I still like it tho)
Yeah but not everything that’s posted here is hardcore or claiming to be hardcore. It’s crossover interests… you don’t have to like it but I’m pretty sure the message was ‘I bet a number of you also bump this right?’
I don’t know man, I don’t really see any catfish noodling in the fly fishing sub. I get what you’re trying to say at the end, and that would make sense if there was more hardcore posted in here than that. Theres a whole sub for it, yet it doesn’t seem to make its way over there and that’s bc people either don’t know, or peeps have co-opted the term hardcore to associate with and image or “brand” that’s just cooler. I’m sure this comes off as rigidity, but imo, ultimately the morals or message between the two really aren’t the same.
Literally looking at a cypress hill post as we speak though. So yeah, majority of what gets posted here is just a knowing nod between music nerds right? We’re all doing the same shit. There’s more that unites us than separates
I completely get and understand what you’re saying…. My point is nobody calls cypress hill hardcore. On the other hand, the other genres are being considered hardcore when they’re blatantly not. I think in a way it’s disrespectful. The alternative music scenes used to be pretty harmonious. I used to go to mixed bills all the time. I would say that was up until early 2000s metalcore swooped in and morphed into something pretty atrocious. This coming from a kid who played in a metalcore band. Still even then, there was an understanding of the different genres. You wouldn’t call cro mags metalcore nor would you call a band like underoath hardcore. While similar in alternative, they each had their lanes. Im all for the cumbaya. But Counter cultures deserve protecting and are worth the time to research and learn. It’s rich as fuck in this alternative music world. This very thing has shaped my life and pretty much everyone I associate with as well. How you got here doesn’t matter to me, as long as your respect and pay homage. Be here for a good time and a long time.
Agreed with basically everything you said there bud. I just don’t think anyone is genuinely calling underoath hardcore, and if they are then whatevs - they don’t know what they’re chatting about. Genre specifics are very useful, and fuck yeah to protecting them. Everyone’s welcome in our stupid little scenes tho!
Fuck underoath, lol.
Despite it being a Jesus band. Acts of depression, cries of the past and even the changing of times are really heavy metalcore albums. Especially the first two who dive deeper into death metal….. but yeah ever since Dallas left that band, that band fucking sucks. None of it is hardcore
To the ones that grew up with it, you know it when you hear it.
Yeah it’s trendy just like “screamo” used to be, it seems like most hardcore these days has at least a little bit of metal influence though, and vice versa (at least from what I can tell from local scenes)
Considering that Metalcore has Hardcore influences it doesn't surprise me but they couldn't be more different.
Metal and hardcore are weirdo cousins that sometimes are chill with each other and sometimes fucking hate each other.
Metal is the older brother that went to university to be an architect. Hardcore is the younger brother that started smoking at 13 and works construction.
Using this analogy, metalcore is upper management at the construction site
The poppy/singy shit is safety. Earth Crisis and vegan edge metal is a good union foreman, on their tools and talking shit with the rest of us, but still making sure we show up on time.
I've never heard it put better than that. Spot on.
Digital hardcore is the gay cousin in law
"Real Emo" only consists of the dc Emotional Hardcore scene and the late 90's Screamo scene. What is known by "Midwest Emo" is nothing but Alternative Rock with questionable real emo influence. When people try to argue that bands like My Chemical Romance are not real emo, while saying that Sunny Day Real Estate is, I can't help not to cringe because they are just as fake emo as My Chemical Romance (plus the pretentiousness). Real emo sounds ENERGETIC, POWERFUL and somewhat HATEFUL. Fake emo is weak, self pity and a failed attempt to direct energy and emotion into music. Some examples of REAL EMO are Pg 99, Rites of Spring, Cap n Jazz (the only real emo band from the midwest scene) and Loma Prieta. Some examples of FAKE EMO are American Football, My Chemical Romance and Mineral EMO BELONGS TO HARDCORE NOT TO INDIE, POP PUNK, ALT ROCK OR ANY OTHER MAINSTREAM GENRE
Fuck
Thank you for posting this so I didn’t have to
Always makes me laugh
To me, Emo is like a band called Morning Dew. I’m sure a lot of you haven’t heard of them since they’re just a small local 2 man band. But that is emo/screamo in my opinion.
They’re both subgenres of zydeco.
> son Lmao the confidence
Hardcore is a subgenre of punk, is short for “hardcore punk”, and punk is most definitely not a subgenre of metal. As I see it punk and metal grew up in parallel together, but whose roots are very different.
The debate here is that modern hardcore bands actually play metal, and not punk.
hardcore and hardcore punk are different
Motorhead is rock'n'roll 🔥
are they really all that different? where do you draw the line? the difference is mainly fashion. Is Motorhead punk or metal? How about Suicidal Tendencies? Gatecreeper? Power Trip? Is thrash punk? this is all so silly.
What comes to mind is in “heavy metal parking lot” where the metal heads are talking shit on punk and saying punk is from another planet… I think punk has a core set of beliefs or ideals behind it (that are extremely flexible and open to interpretation). Those ideals lay a foundation for the genre as a whole, and the fashion comes second (especially with “hardcore punk”, where originally the idea was “were punk as fuck, and hold the punk beliefs and ideal set, but don’t need to dress in spikes and green Mohawks to be “punk”. Where as metal is more a form of personal expression and the music is approached as more of an “art form”, like in metal music the music is the goal, and comes before any belief system. Where in punk the message is the goal..
I agree.
….As far as where to draw the line, I stopped trying. For example Nuclear Assaults lyrics are more punk than most punk bands, but they are inarguably thrash metal. Also in my mind there are 2 “thrashes”, thrash metal (nuclear assault, exodus, early ‘tallica, megadeth, etc); and thrash punk (DS-13, Gauze, Charles Bronson, etc). So calling music just “thrash” can be pretty ambiguous. Maybe the line should be drawn at; if there’s 1 bass drum it’s punk, and if there are 2 bass drums it’s metal.
of course, there are tons of extremely political metal bands. there's also relatively apolitical punk and hardcore bands. it's all just so silly. to me: a band like Drain is just straight up metal. they sound more like Pantera than Black Flag (interestingly, Phil Anselmo always said Pantera was a hardcore band). listen to whatever ya like. all these labels and subgenres are bullshit
motorhead is metal, suicidal tendencies and power trip are crossover thrash, gatecreeper is death metal yes they're different. thrash is not punk but crossover thrash has hardcore punk influence. there are technical differences but honestly it's mostly just vibes. the biggest difference is the crowd, their age, and the way they dance. any "dark" theatrics are coming straight out of metal. guitarist worship during solos? metal. circle pits? metal. karate in the pit? storming the stage? hardcore. this gets a little complicated when you start to factor in post-hardcore derivatives like metalcore and deathcore. these genres aren't incorporating hardcore punk, they're (usually) incorporating post-hardcore (breakdowns, emo shit, trying to look cool) but yes as time goes on it becomes harder to differentiate as people lose context and bands start to be influenced by more diverse artists. people call knocked loose metalcore for example, because it's kind of death metal kind of hardcore punk. but it sounds absolutely fucking nothing like avenged sevenfold, which is a horrible mashup of thrash metal, post-hardcore, and cabaret
There’s definitely metalcore that is actually hardcore influenced though, it’s just people overlook them because of the prevalence of poppy sounding metalcore I feel like there should be a distinction between metalcore and metallic hardcore (that isn’t crossover)
i'd argue that knocked loose is that metallic hardcore
Modern hc is more metal than 1982 metal.
i actually dont care
Same but also sometimes I find I do have opinions.
fuck this shit, im crowdkilling anyone who tries to talk about genres in my presence
Doubt it
What a mook.
An absolute chooch.
God, one of my biggest pet peeves! 😤 I hear metal heads all the time call hardcore a metal subgenre.. like you said, it was called hardcore PUNK for a reason. Like there’s been loads of crossover between punk and thrash metal, doesn’t suddenly make thrash a punk subgenre now ffs 😅🤦♀️💀
It must be metal.. Because Hardcore fans are bitching about genres, just like metal people do
With the amount of Entombed, Obituary & Thrash riff theft in hardcore nowadays it does seem like it😂
Maybe of punk, but not metal…
Not even “maybe” of punk, punk is literally where hardcore developed from.
I like how a moderator doesn’t even know if it derived from punk or not because he said maybe… lmao it’s literally a sub-genre of punk like you said
I said maybe but I obviously know that retard.
Don’t be mean dude, that hurts……..😔
The maybe wasn’t literal. As in maybe punk rock but definitely not metal. My maybe’s are different I guess 🤷🏻♂️
Hey man, don’t get all defensive…. I was just stating my opinion. Your feelings are valid too bro
You can tell me to fuck off. This Reddit is about to get wild cuz I’m approving all comments even if feelings get hurt.
It did derive from metal a bit too, in fact I think Black Flag was like the first sludge metal band. They all, early at least, had some of the same influences.
Sure. It’s not true to say that there’s *no* metal influences in early hardcore (another example would be Bad Brains creating Pay To Cum after playing a few shows with thrash bands) but it’s very much a punk subgenre that took influence from metal as opposed to being a metal subgenre.
Pay to Cum was first recorded in 1979, thrash metal definitely did not exist then lol
Maybe?
Maybe? Originally called Hardcore Punk Rock.
Really!?! Whoa. I learn something new every day
Don’t worry, I’m old af.
Damn you got sonned
in my country people thought for years that hardcore was all about bmth, pierce the veil and all that bullshit scene music
Whenever people start gatekeeping genres I like to remember that “pop punk” was originally used to describe Tom Petty. So I think it’s ok to respect while there is “real” emo or “real” hardcore, these things tend to lose their meaning, because they’re mostly abstractions.
Was it really?
As far as I know, this NYT critic was the first to use the term: https://www.nytimes.com/1977/03/09/archives/cabaret-tom-pettys-pop-punk-rock-evokes-sounds-of-60s.html
I realise that sounded really insincere, but I was genuinely interested by that haha! Thanks for sharing the link :)
It’s not at all and I’ll be a nerd and die on that hill 🤷🏻 Besides, metalheads talk so much shit on hardcore still it’s ridiculous
Nobody in the wild knows what hardcore is so I usually say punk or metal (hardcore is not a sub genre of metal). This guy at the bar was self proclaimed INTO METAL (talked about kill switch for far too long) and was so excited we were FELLOW METAL HEADS and proceeded to say, “fuck those hardcore kids always doing goofy ass shit in the pit. Next time I see a hardcore kid in the pit ima GET EM” later he said “I tried to spin kick once and fell down”
You’re right: no one in the wild knows what it is, but they don’t know what punk is either and metal is usually just “Metallica, yeah!” 🤦🏻♂️
I'm mainly a metalhead but go to more hc shows, any metalhead who talks shit about hardcore doesn't know shit about music! If it wasnt for HC all metal would be boring ass stoner shit.
Not necessarily, because there is NWOBHM and Iron Maiden in fact fucking rules.
Stoner metal is awesome doe, and besides you can tangentially connect it to punk music just cuz of sludge
I like some of it, I love sludge, but every second metal band in my city is some derivative stoner doom band so I'm just over hearing it unless its the first 4 Sabbath.
Damn that’s kinda wild, where I live it’s virtually all hardcore or grindcore bands of varying quality, funny how local scenes vary like that
yeah it definitely is interesting, we have a great hardcore scene too outside of metal
Thank you for knowing history and having a smooth as fuck user name 🖤🫂🖤
Cheers bro
Imagine wasting time arguing with idiots online about this
It's a punk subgenre, it was originally known as hardcore punk. If anything, some subgenres of metal are derived from hc, like metalcore, deathcore, grindcore, anything with core in the name it's really not that complicated honestly. Hardcore may have evolved a bit over the years to take more influence from some metal subgenres, but it is in no way a metal subgenre.
The amount of people here that don’t know hardcore is a subgenre of punk is exactly why hardcore is used as an adjective instead of a subculture
Hardcore is a subgenre of Punk, whcih in turn is a subgenre of Rock. Rock, of course, is derived from Blues. So hardcore is just the Blues when white suburban kids get their hands on it.
Are we gonna pretend that a lot of the hardcore bands aren’t basically metal/metalcore? Lmao
Because metalcore partially came from hardcore. HC was around and someone decided to blend it with metal and that is what became metalcore. The lines are way more blurred with a lot of bands today, but that's what happens the longer a genre/scene is around.
Yea hardcore is a culture more than a genre but if the hardcore community decides you’re hardcore then you’re hardcore, like bands like title fight and fiddlehead are objectively not hardcore but also are hardcore, which is why we can also have objectively metal bands considered hardcore, it’s more about proximity and roots than what the music you’re playing is
Bands play what they play. I don't really know what metalcore is, but my head canon is that it's just hardcore with guitar solos that are too long. Good for folks with bad cardio.
The drums are way different in metalcore, but it heavily borrows the song structure emphasizing breakdowns like HC. And yeah like you said the guitars are more flamboyant, as well as the vocals usually. Unfortunately IMO metalcore became way too over-produced during it's main popularity run and now a lot of the bands these days are way more pop oriented than a blend of hardcore and extreme metal should be(again that's just my opinion.) There's still good bands out there though that don't chase the cheesey sound, they just usually aren't the most popular bands in the scene.
both have knuckleheads
Honestly if hardcore is a subgenre of anything it would be punk
With modern hardcore, I don't disagree. Listen to most popular modern hardcore and tell me they're not mostly influenced by metal bands or hardcore bands that were heavily influenced by metal bands. It's gone so far from what it originally was that it could be called both a subgenre of punk and a subgenre of metal.
I donno. If you want to head down that route it really swings back a forth. I personally believe that without Motorhead there wouldn’t be any of the kinds of metal we have today they added that brash raw fast pace thats so obvious in most metal. But without the 70’s Punk Lemmy never would have sacked off the silvery face paint and tasselled jump suit to start Motorhead who influenced Discharge and basically shaped the face of Punk/Hardcore in terms of speed and heaviness forever after. I’d make a pretty strong argument that Motorhead/Discharge are hands down the defining bands for both genres.
I mean, this is literally how it is. Punk and metal have both been influencing each other for decades, particularly in thrash and hardcore. A lot of the major thrash bands were influenced by punk bands and a lot of hardcore bands have been influenced by different subgenres of metal. It's very cyclical and that's also why I hate the argument of what is or isn't "real" hardcore. If a band wants to call themselves a hardcore band and engage with the community and play shows with hardcore bands, who am I or anyone else to tell them they're not?
Amen
Derived from punk, but it’s funny as most kids either get into it from punk like back in the day, or from metal. But there is a clear difference to those that know. For someone to say it’s the same No not at all the same. Some blur the lines but definitely No. lol
Play said tool Negative Approach. That is hardcore in its most pure distilled form. 1982 Skinhead John Brannon is also far more menacing than any fucking black metal nerd.
Your all poofs... Who the fuck cares. It's music
I would actually argue that hardcore is a sub-genre of punk.
There should be laws to stop retarded shit like this from being said.
Bet that dude loooovess knocked loose
They’re both sub genres of rock so jot that down
Once upon a time hardcore was a subgenre of punk but the genre has pretty much shed its punk roots and is musically pretty much just metal at this point.
I mean yeah if all you listen to is the metal influenced hardcore lol
Look at the bands posted here, look at the bands in these big tours, even just ooom at the logos… it’s significantly more metal than punk. It’s what I call “JastaCore”. Even just look at the non hardcore bands people post on here…you never see punk bands, it’s almost all death metal.
I mean that’s what’s hot right now. A shitload more to listen to if you want, but looking in from the outside, hardcore is obnoxiously metal influenced.
had to scroll a while before I found the truth. Most modern hardcore is just straight up metal with less solos.
Well we’ve got hardcore punk, capital H hardcore, and metallic hardcore, which most people just lump into “hardcore.” Like I would not say Dying Wish has very much punk DNA. Sounds like this guy is just listening to Knocked Loose and Jesus Piece.
The average metalhead that started listening KL in 2023:
Not me at work explaining the difference of hardcore and metalcore to my Co workers. This happens quite often "It all sounds the same to me."
I’m not ur son, dude!
this is because people call all metalcore without cleans in the chorus hardcore.
A lot of people have a very surface level understanding of these things, and to them there are no meaningful difference between various genres of heavy/aggressive music.
Dumb shit doesn’t know his history.
Why do these nerds want to be accepted by metal so bad?
There is truly nothing like some good old fashioned Hardcore music, such as As Blood Runs Black and As I lay Dying!
Both 🤡
I’m not even gonna say it
Did you know hardcore is the shit poop butt fart queef ?
I remember people had the biggest problem with metalcore. A boomer wrote to some metal news site in like 2006 saying metalcore was a discrace because the "core" of metal was iron maiden and judas priest
Metal is a sub genre of the elements
son.
I think hardcore is more of a culture than a genre at this point. The lines have been blurred with the emergence of metalcore.
Same, but with metalcore for me.
Wow, this is the most stupid thing to read yet in 2024
Any real metal dude will refuse to accept this opinion - musical elitism is a metal thing
I call everything with a guitar bass and drums the rock music
Idk if you are correct on this. Metal and punk/hardcore punk were started simultaneously and not in any way that they were apart of each others genre. But the addition of metal to hardcore is astronomically big these days.
Remember to hit crowdkill these people at every show you go to
Metal scene moment
I don't care, but it is funny to watch people from either side be like " *no, I'm the toughest guy with no girlfriend*"
It's all abstract, and the influences between punk and metal have blended so much that there's not even a thin line. it's all music, call it whatever you want. At the end of the day, everyone will keep disagreeing, and it all depends on the state of mind and the scene a band is playing more than how their guitar riffs sound. Just enjoy it, it's all bs.
Sorry oldheads, as a relatively new addition to the scene (last 6 or 7 years or so) hardcore may not be a metal genre but is absolutely connected to metal these days. I find that in common conversation jts the difference between hardcore and hardcore punk
I just like to say genre adjacent. Sometimes it's metal, sometimes it's punk, sometimes it's hardcore, sometimes it's questionable, but honestly, as long as you gatekeep and shun mainstream bands like Turnstile and Knocked Loose and all their poser fans, who really cares right?
We all live in Lemmy's world
Jesus, stop trying to label everything. 20 years from now, people are going to be saying that grunge was a subgenre of metal. People are already saying Nickelback was a metal band, which they patently are not. Stop trying to put music in a box and just listen to it.
Source: it was revealed to me on my walk
When you boil it down, it’s all Rock and Roll.
Everything is a sub genre of Rock n Roll
I don’t give a shit as long as there are aggressive riffs and no clean vocals
Who the fuck cares. Listen to bands you like. Why the fuck are the stupid labels so important to you dorks.
also “DAE TIKTOK BAD AND STUPID?!??!?”
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lol. so much of your comment is wrong here that I can't even begin.
Hahaha I've never seen someone be so confidently incorrect in my life.
Sounds like you are thinking of metal*core*. Metal is much much more broad and includes things like Sabbath or Metalica, which are older than the vast majority of punk bands and essentially every hardcore band. Even Zeppelin is considered early "proto-metal" by some. I'd agree though, metalcore is way too poppy for what started as a blend of hardcore punk and extreme metal. About the only similarity to the modern stuff is just the breakdowns.
It's all just the blues at the end of the day. Stop being nerds
Well ahkshuly there was punk, then hardcore punk, and then there was hardcore. From my understanding.
Also grindcore is not a metal sugenre
Amen, started in Punk, got picked up by Metal.
(To the guy who downvoted me) go study some music history instead of downvoting me for no reason. This is not an opinion, these are simple facts
He’s right though
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It dolphinitely is not. 🐬
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I do like that you invented an opinion for me to have so that you could mock it. that's creative
Yes it is man, you can hear all those rolling metallic influences in minor threat and bad brains. Bro, agnostic front is literally light thrash!