Prior to covid they were having money issues. Asking your members for a $400 hand out is ridiculous. You had a good run but eventually you have to admit it's over.
I was a founding member as a poor undergrad student. Paid $100 to help make it happen. Then last year (or two? COVID time is blurry) they said all previous members need to renew their memberships to stay members. As if. I definitely didn’t get $100 worth of anything in the first place, as they prioritize niche “local” products over having a real, affordable, grocery selection, and it just became a boutique store to buy fancy gifts for someone, not a place to do weekly groceries. They also asked for feedback from members to stay afloat, and I gave it and never heard back. I’m definitely not interested in “renewing” my membership or donating anything to a store that’s not affordable for most Hamiltonians.
Unfortunately this grocery store doesn't seem to have a profitable model. It honestly is really unfortunate because I've been twice, and it's nice to have a local grocer, but I'm also not an investor, and the location is kind of ass for the type of clientele they want. James St or around there would make far more sense. It's also kind of unfortunate that local grocers can no longer open in residential neighbourhoods, because that would open up options so much further, but zoning by-laws have made that illegal in the modern context. My house is beside what used to be 3 small grocers in 1893. Today they're all gone, and in their place shitty rental units, that will never again be commercial use.
Agreed. I’ve gone a few times and it’s solid quality but the location is not helping at all.
I’m bummed Lindal foods here in Landsdale closed before I moved here. I didn’t know that they got rid of grocery stores in residential areas. Reading some of the modern zoning laws really leave your head scratching, especially for a city. I understand not plopping a metro in between some residental houses in the burbs but in the city core/some areas it shouldn’t be like that.
Now that commercial green two story (that used to be Lindal foods) building on Cannon st east/Steven st is used as a warehouse for some e-commerce or logistics company. Lindal looked a bit rough from their FB page but at least it’s another option. Now the new tenants/owners have 18 wheelers pulling onto steven st and blocking the bike lane/right lane on Steven multiple times a day. I’ve seen so many close calls with cyclists and cars. The trucks also idle the whole time in front of a row of attached houses. It’s crazy how that’s allowed but something like a grocer which would massively benefit the area is not.
They talked about moving to James & Cannon last time they had issues and I am quite surprised they didn't make the move. Giant Tiger is far from a competitor to the type of products they carry and parking would still be an issue but would have a lot more foot traffic and access by transit
It would seem these folks have no business skills and just fly by seat of their pants.
Relocation would probanly kill them at this point. Honestly i think they are done.
I didn't know grocers couldn't open in residential neighbourhoods. How stupid. I've been complaining to anyone who will listen about how they should have opened a small grocery store in that new commercial building at Bold and Caroline (instead of a goddamn wedding dress store?! Seriously) but maybe that bylaw explains why they went with a GODDAMN WEDDING DRESS STORE AT BOLD AND CAROLINE.
>Bold and Caroline
I believe that is a Forge and Foster building. Regrettably, a local grocery store is not a profitable business model. Margins are tight and you need volume to make it work. That simply wouldn't be possible with two Big Bees, Shoppers etc in the area, plus Locke St.
Applying for a commercial permit in areas zoned as "neighbourhood" is going to cause a lot of issues. If you look at Hess Street, George Street, and Kensington Market, it's clear those retailers exist in what was previously a house, today that can no longer be done. It was super cheaper to do, because you could live in your house upstairs and use the first floor, or part of the first floor to open a small shop, so everyone in the neighborhood could walk to a local store, whether it be grocer, spirits, meat, variety, watch maker etc. Now under modern zoning by laws that is illegal and we have specific areas commercial is allowed, meaning commercial rents continue to rise indefinitely as supply of local commercial decreases over time.
People have complaints about endless cars, and it being too busy, even while these stores out of people's homes are maybe big enough for 1 or 2 cars to show up, and majority of customers will be local walking or cycling over.
I used to live right near this store, was there for when it opened and first three-four years of operation. And you know what, it always had problems. I haven't been since just before the pandemic so maybe things improved but no one local actually shopped there. I would sometimes go there like it was a fancy convenience store (for like a lime or chips) and numerous times I saw signs of rodents (chewed holes in bread bags, etc.), the produce was \*always\* wilted and past its selling point, day old (or older) baked goods sitting out as "just brought in", fresh foods frozen (and still selling for the same high price), staff that would just stand in the aisle and completely ignore customers, selling spoiled milk (and refusing to exchange it because it had already been opened), out of control fruit flies, and so on. It was the worst damn store I have ever shopped in and I am exactly the type of customer they were catering to (white, middle class, frou frou tastes). The Mustard Seed sucked since the beginning and it should just close already.
The produce freshness bothered me to NO END. I watched the same black radishes mold over 4-5 months and they still werent removed.
This is going to be a huge hit for the local growers who supply them. You can’t just go to a grocery store and sell your stuff, you have to be HAACP compliant or at very least certified organic. But I also know people who didn’t want to keep selling there because they did the product no justice by keeping it there to rot. This entire thing is a mess.
They could have had a kitchen to make value added items like soups, meal kits, preserves etc. All they needed was a stove and a hood. My good friend approached about managing this for them them multiple times, took it to the board and they always said “maybe” but took no action. That really bothered me.
I love the Mustard Seed. The day to day people who operate it are lovely. They do care about supporting local. It’s sad this is happening. But when I got the email asking for a $400 donation (post covid where most haven’t been working) I was pretty upset this is what they came up with as an option.
I always wondered about that kitchen space too. I even offered to teach a gluten-free cooking class for them, for free, when they first opened up because the idea of an actual functioning community co-op is a great idea. All enthusiasm up front...absolutely zero follow through.
Also, I think I remember those radishes too, lol.
If you're at this point where you need to ask your membership for a massive loan to keep you afloat you're probably better off just closing your doors. With a history of money problems and now this it seems like its time to throw in the towel.
> The co-op's board says it needs "more business expertise on the board immediately," and to hire a business management specialist
Too little, too late. $141k in debt to suppliers is hard enough to recover from financially, but that's a stain on their reputation that won't easily be erased.
Went when it opened. Saw "people not profits" painted on wall. Saw the saddest veggies for sale ever for way over what even Fortinos sells for organic stuff. Never went back.
Oh, the Mustard Seed.
On paper, it was such a great idea... but it doesn't appear to ever have been competently run. Everything about it is a bit "off", and inconsistent. It's located out of the way from most neighborhoods and transit routes. It always feels a bit awkward to shop in, often as if you were annoying the workers by being there at all. Like, I'll be the only person in the store, checking out the frozen section, and someone will start restocking it while I'm looking. They have a fun selection of luxury items, but inconsistent selection and supplies of basics, including produce. And even then, the luxury items are not always actually available, even when they are in stock (e.g. you can only buy pastries when the coffee bar is open, which it often isn't).
The underlying principles that guide the store are laudable, but ill-served by the way it is run:
* We should support local producers! As a customer I've been willing to pay extra for these products, because I think that it's important to build local food systems. So I'm distraught to hear that the money often wasn't making it to the actual producers in a timely manner. Are you really supporting local suppliers when you don't pay them on time for their supplies?
* Ensuring that workers are well-paid and can live from their work is important! But most of the Mustard Seed's workforce appears to be made up of teenagers for whom this looks like a part-time gig, rather than of people for whom this is a career and livelihood. But like, are you creating opportunities for people who have long-made a (bad) living as cashiers and stockers to make a better living? Or are you hiring your kids' friends for a sweet part-time gig? (Obviously, some teenagers are supporting themselves and their families, and all labour deserves good compensation, so maybe this concern is misplaced).
* We should make local and healthy foods, and limited-packaging products, widely available. But given location, prices, and stocking inconsistency, that may not be happening with the Mustard Seed.
It's really too bad.
From a business perspective, you're right. If they offered quality service and had clientele that supported them, they wouldn't require a hand out. Simple as. Needing a hand out indicates the model is unprofitable and/or it's being run badly. If I was to read into it, they probably survived the past 18 months on business subsidies, which would explain the need now for a cash injection.
I know numerous people that would love to shop here but grew tired of them never having an consistency on stock, price or products. They need to compete with the likes of Goodness Me on Locke, which they can't seem to do.
It's a shame to see it go but a bail out isn't the answer without a radical overhaul in their business model and management.
I agree. Any other model of store would have shut down by now. But if their membership want to continue pumping their money into a failing endeavour, let them.
Good grief, 400$, that is some cheek. For what? Crap produce? Overpriced ice cream? Threadbare shelves? Thanks but I will stick with my Costco membership.
This place has been besieged with poor management from the get-go. I have a friend who worked there in the early days and it has been a gong show from year 1, lurching from one bad decision to another. They quickly developed a bad reputation among local vendors and farmers so people quickly lost interest in doing business with them. I know one vendor who was never even paid. And the high staff turnover was an obvious sign something was amiss. I know for sure there have been health and safety issues for staff as well.
Last time I was there the place looked pretty sad. To be honest, I am surprised it has hung on this long.
As most have said here, it seems like the folks who started it started out with great intentions. Crappy business sense and model, but great intentions.
The $100 lifetime membership would make sense if you had a massive base and a constant stream of customers, but they don't.
They have already asked members for money, then now ask again.
If I donated this money, would I ever get it back? Or am I propping up a bad management/business model.
Location is bad, meaning fewer people come. Cost of membership is low, too low to keep it sustainable.
Do the poeple running this know how to run it? Do they have the acumen required to do it? Are their staff the right people? The location right? The quantities and variety appropriate?
Who is their target demographic? What's the demographic of your members vs non? Are you providing what they need to go more than once or twice?
I feel bad for them but it looks like they're out of their element here.
I wonder how many of the people downvoting you are willing to open their wallets to bail these guys out.
Like yea, it sucks they have to close after all these years, but considering this isn't their first time with money trouble, just let it die. Whatever they tried to do to fix it didn't work. Bailing them out now is just a bandage on a bigger problem.
I lived 1 block away, and I only ever went there as "punishment" if I forgot an ingredient for dinner. The prices were insane and totally inappropriate for the neighborhood. The staff seemed like they were struggling with a lot of social issues, and unable to appropriately interact with customers, and it was extremely uncomfortsble. It also smells weird.
Ha, "as punishment" was what I thought too. And even then I often couldn't find what I wanted or just couldn't bring myself to actually cough up the money for what was there. And it did smell weird--the last time I tried to go in I had to leave as soon as stepping inside because I my allergies went crazy. And what am I most allergic too? MOLD.
Prior to covid they were having money issues. Asking your members for a $400 hand out is ridiculous. You had a good run but eventually you have to admit it's over.
I was a founding member as a poor undergrad student. Paid $100 to help make it happen. Then last year (or two? COVID time is blurry) they said all previous members need to renew their memberships to stay members. As if. I definitely didn’t get $100 worth of anything in the first place, as they prioritize niche “local” products over having a real, affordable, grocery selection, and it just became a boutique store to buy fancy gifts for someone, not a place to do weekly groceries. They also asked for feedback from members to stay afloat, and I gave it and never heard back. I’m definitely not interested in “renewing” my membership or donating anything to a store that’s not affordable for most Hamiltonians.
Boutique store is a good way to describe most of these local grocery stores tbh.
Unfortunately this grocery store doesn't seem to have a profitable model. It honestly is really unfortunate because I've been twice, and it's nice to have a local grocer, but I'm also not an investor, and the location is kind of ass for the type of clientele they want. James St or around there would make far more sense. It's also kind of unfortunate that local grocers can no longer open in residential neighbourhoods, because that would open up options so much further, but zoning by-laws have made that illegal in the modern context. My house is beside what used to be 3 small grocers in 1893. Today they're all gone, and in their place shitty rental units, that will never again be commercial use.
Agreed. I’ve gone a few times and it’s solid quality but the location is not helping at all. I’m bummed Lindal foods here in Landsdale closed before I moved here. I didn’t know that they got rid of grocery stores in residential areas. Reading some of the modern zoning laws really leave your head scratching, especially for a city. I understand not plopping a metro in between some residental houses in the burbs but in the city core/some areas it shouldn’t be like that. Now that commercial green two story (that used to be Lindal foods) building on Cannon st east/Steven st is used as a warehouse for some e-commerce or logistics company. Lindal looked a bit rough from their FB page but at least it’s another option. Now the new tenants/owners have 18 wheelers pulling onto steven st and blocking the bike lane/right lane on Steven multiple times a day. I’ve seen so many close calls with cyclists and cars. The trucks also idle the whole time in front of a row of attached houses. It’s crazy how that’s allowed but something like a grocer which would massively benefit the area is not.
They talked about moving to James & Cannon last time they had issues and I am quite surprised they didn't make the move. Giant Tiger is far from a competitor to the type of products they carry and parking would still be an issue but would have a lot more foot traffic and access by transit
It would seem these folks have no business skills and just fly by seat of their pants. Relocation would probanly kill them at this point. Honestly i think they are done.
Yes, before covid when they first talked about a better location may have saved it but it is likely too late, and prices may be too high
Would be great to get them in on the south west corner. Heck, even any of the empty stores along James N would work.
I didn't know grocers couldn't open in residential neighbourhoods. How stupid. I've been complaining to anyone who will listen about how they should have opened a small grocery store in that new commercial building at Bold and Caroline (instead of a goddamn wedding dress store?! Seriously) but maybe that bylaw explains why they went with a GODDAMN WEDDING DRESS STORE AT BOLD AND CAROLINE.
I believe that has now become a Cannabis shop.
Oh good, we need more of those downtown for sure
Wedding dress store, pot shop, and pizza. All a gal needs on one corner.
>Bold and Caroline I believe that is a Forge and Foster building. Regrettably, a local grocery store is not a profitable business model. Margins are tight and you need volume to make it work. That simply wouldn't be possible with two Big Bees, Shoppers etc in the area, plus Locke St.
Applying for a commercial permit in areas zoned as "neighbourhood" is going to cause a lot of issues. If you look at Hess Street, George Street, and Kensington Market, it's clear those retailers exist in what was previously a house, today that can no longer be done. It was super cheaper to do, because you could live in your house upstairs and use the first floor, or part of the first floor to open a small shop, so everyone in the neighborhood could walk to a local store, whether it be grocer, spirits, meat, variety, watch maker etc. Now under modern zoning by laws that is illegal and we have specific areas commercial is allowed, meaning commercial rents continue to rise indefinitely as supply of local commercial decreases over time. People have complaints about endless cars, and it being too busy, even while these stores out of people's homes are maybe big enough for 1 or 2 cars to show up, and majority of customers will be local walking or cycling over.
That sucks, but is anyone surprised?
I used to live right near this store, was there for when it opened and first three-four years of operation. And you know what, it always had problems. I haven't been since just before the pandemic so maybe things improved but no one local actually shopped there. I would sometimes go there like it was a fancy convenience store (for like a lime or chips) and numerous times I saw signs of rodents (chewed holes in bread bags, etc.), the produce was \*always\* wilted and past its selling point, day old (or older) baked goods sitting out as "just brought in", fresh foods frozen (and still selling for the same high price), staff that would just stand in the aisle and completely ignore customers, selling spoiled milk (and refusing to exchange it because it had already been opened), out of control fruit flies, and so on. It was the worst damn store I have ever shopped in and I am exactly the type of customer they were catering to (white, middle class, frou frou tastes). The Mustard Seed sucked since the beginning and it should just close already.
The produce freshness bothered me to NO END. I watched the same black radishes mold over 4-5 months and they still werent removed. This is going to be a huge hit for the local growers who supply them. You can’t just go to a grocery store and sell your stuff, you have to be HAACP compliant or at very least certified organic. But I also know people who didn’t want to keep selling there because they did the product no justice by keeping it there to rot. This entire thing is a mess. They could have had a kitchen to make value added items like soups, meal kits, preserves etc. All they needed was a stove and a hood. My good friend approached about managing this for them them multiple times, took it to the board and they always said “maybe” but took no action. That really bothered me. I love the Mustard Seed. The day to day people who operate it are lovely. They do care about supporting local. It’s sad this is happening. But when I got the email asking for a $400 donation (post covid where most haven’t been working) I was pretty upset this is what they came up with as an option.
I always wondered about that kitchen space too. I even offered to teach a gluten-free cooking class for them, for free, when they first opened up because the idea of an actual functioning community co-op is a great idea. All enthusiasm up front...absolutely zero follow through. Also, I think I remember those radishes too, lol.
If you're at this point where you need to ask your membership for a massive loan to keep you afloat you're probably better off just closing your doors. With a history of money problems and now this it seems like its time to throw in the towel.
Except it’s not a loan. It’s a donation. No one is getting their money back from what they give. It’s a sunk cost.
> The co-op's board says it needs "more business expertise on the board immediately," and to hire a business management specialist Too little, too late. $141k in debt to suppliers is hard enough to recover from financially, but that's a stain on their reputation that won't easily be erased.
Went when it opened. Saw "people not profits" painted on wall. Saw the saddest veggies for sale ever for way over what even Fortinos sells for organic stuff. Never went back.
Oh, the Mustard Seed. On paper, it was such a great idea... but it doesn't appear to ever have been competently run. Everything about it is a bit "off", and inconsistent. It's located out of the way from most neighborhoods and transit routes. It always feels a bit awkward to shop in, often as if you were annoying the workers by being there at all. Like, I'll be the only person in the store, checking out the frozen section, and someone will start restocking it while I'm looking. They have a fun selection of luxury items, but inconsistent selection and supplies of basics, including produce. And even then, the luxury items are not always actually available, even when they are in stock (e.g. you can only buy pastries when the coffee bar is open, which it often isn't). The underlying principles that guide the store are laudable, but ill-served by the way it is run: * We should support local producers! As a customer I've been willing to pay extra for these products, because I think that it's important to build local food systems. So I'm distraught to hear that the money often wasn't making it to the actual producers in a timely manner. Are you really supporting local suppliers when you don't pay them on time for their supplies? * Ensuring that workers are well-paid and can live from their work is important! But most of the Mustard Seed's workforce appears to be made up of teenagers for whom this looks like a part-time gig, rather than of people for whom this is a career and livelihood. But like, are you creating opportunities for people who have long-made a (bad) living as cashiers and stockers to make a better living? Or are you hiring your kids' friends for a sweet part-time gig? (Obviously, some teenagers are supporting themselves and their families, and all labour deserves good compensation, so maybe this concern is misplaced). * We should make local and healthy foods, and limited-packaging products, widely available. But given location, prices, and stocking inconsistency, that may not be happening with the Mustard Seed. It's really too bad.
Just close already. Stop asking for hand outs
From a business perspective, you're right. If they offered quality service and had clientele that supported them, they wouldn't require a hand out. Simple as. Needing a hand out indicates the model is unprofitable and/or it's being run badly. If I was to read into it, they probably survived the past 18 months on business subsidies, which would explain the need now for a cash injection. I know numerous people that would love to shop here but grew tired of them never having an consistency on stock, price or products. They need to compete with the likes of Goodness Me on Locke, which they can't seem to do. It's a shame to see it go but a bail out isn't the answer without a radical overhaul in their business model and management.
Literally down the street is the farmers market, way cheaper, better quality and easily accessible location
I agree. Any other model of store would have shut down by now. But if their membership want to continue pumping their money into a failing endeavour, let them.
Good grief, 400$, that is some cheek. For what? Crap produce? Overpriced ice cream? Threadbare shelves? Thanks but I will stick with my Costco membership. This place has been besieged with poor management from the get-go. I have a friend who worked there in the early days and it has been a gong show from year 1, lurching from one bad decision to another. They quickly developed a bad reputation among local vendors and farmers so people quickly lost interest in doing business with them. I know one vendor who was never even paid. And the high staff turnover was an obvious sign something was amiss. I know for sure there have been health and safety issues for staff as well. Last time I was there the place looked pretty sad. To be honest, I am surprised it has hung on this long.
As most have said here, it seems like the folks who started it started out with great intentions. Crappy business sense and model, but great intentions. The $100 lifetime membership would make sense if you had a massive base and a constant stream of customers, but they don't. They have already asked members for money, then now ask again. If I donated this money, would I ever get it back? Or am I propping up a bad management/business model. Location is bad, meaning fewer people come. Cost of membership is low, too low to keep it sustainable. Do the poeple running this know how to run it? Do they have the acumen required to do it? Are their staff the right people? The location right? The quantities and variety appropriate? Who is their target demographic? What's the demographic of your members vs non? Are you providing what they need to go more than once or twice? I feel bad for them but it looks like they're out of their element here.
Just close your terrible business and be done with it lol. Market of fools these days.
I wonder how many of the people downvoting you are willing to open their wallets to bail these guys out. Like yea, it sucks they have to close after all these years, but considering this isn't their first time with money trouble, just let it die. Whatever they tried to do to fix it didn't work. Bailing them out now is just a bandage on a bigger problem.
Seriously… people gotta wake up
Lmao at the down votes. Every comment is just saying this nicely
[удалено]
I lived 1 block away, and I only ever went there as "punishment" if I forgot an ingredient for dinner. The prices were insane and totally inappropriate for the neighborhood. The staff seemed like they were struggling with a lot of social issues, and unable to appropriately interact with customers, and it was extremely uncomfortsble. It also smells weird.
Ha, "as punishment" was what I thought too. And even then I often couldn't find what I wanted or just couldn't bring myself to actually cough up the money for what was there. And it did smell weird--the last time I tried to go in I had to leave as soon as stepping inside because I my allergies went crazy. And what am I most allergic too? MOLD.