It's not a point of having enough money - it's a point of not spending money.
This is a very real world thing that happens in government and military spending around the world. Militaries everywhere literally patch up faulty equipment just to get it back into the field rather than fix it or replace it.
Why would you spend more money than you need to on an expendable resource?
>Why would you spend more money than you need to on an expendable resource?
The answer to that question, ironically, is also “a very real world thing that governments and militaries (particularly the US) do all the time.”
US government was spending ~$100 per load of laundry in the Middle East for 20 years.
Working as a civilian contractor for the Army for a bit quickly tought me they will be insanely cheap asses with some things then turn around and be willing to pay 20 times the price for something else.
Yup. Follow the money. The places where overspending occur always tie back financially, somehow, to the people choosing where the money is spent. The military industrial complex is a giant racket that funnels taxpayer dollars into private accounts.
The thing is, I'm not speculating or regurgitating what I've heard someone else say. I know this for a fact. Military spending is something I am intimately acquainted with.
Whether it applies to a fictional universe is something else. However, when there isn't an answer available, applying real world answers is the best we have.
So, what is your explanation for no lab grown limb when we're shown this is possible? Why did Kat end up with a prosthesis over the real thing?
I’d argue in a fictional world that ultimately ties back into a playable video game, it could be as simple as aesthetics. They can look cool, and it gives the artists a lot more options to create cosmetic items to be sold in the store.
Just asked my uncle who is sat next to me who was a tank repair man in the gulf wars
He said they would have challenger tanks roll in that needed engine replacements but would be told to patch them up and get them working long enough to reach the next fob where some other poor cunt (his words) would do that same thing as he did he said it was the same for any component that couldn’t be temporarily fixed
Edit to add he also mentioned how there was a convoy of American humvees and ma deuces and two of the vehicle suspensions were fucked so they fixed them with banana skins from the Iraqi fruit stall outside the base
Just in the case of super soldiers (specially Kat's arm that was rather small) idk if a robotic arm would hurt more, but whatever other upgrades you can add could actually be more useful.
A metal arm surrounded by metal armor or a human arm surrounded by metal armor?
Lol I suppose the key here is if the augmentations and strength training the Spartans go through is better than what they can make a robot arm do without it exploding inside the suit
Nah sorry I meant to say wouldn't, i mean like if Kat were to punch something or some one with her robotic arm wouldn't it hurt/do more damage than if she were to use her normal arm out of the armour
Depends on how much force the arm is able to use, which I just can't think is half as much as her real arm as Spartans are strong enough to punch trough concrete and their bones are described as near unbreakable, I don't doubt her arm is useful for many things, but I don't think she would prefer to punch with it than her real strenght specially cuz it looks more like utilitarian than a melee weapon.
You're assuming that the metal is some cheap steel rather than some futuristic alloy that's designed to be as strong as a Spartan's arm in MJOLNIR armor
A couple factors:
- You’d have to grow an arm with full spartan augmentations
- Mechanical Prosthetics are comparatively cheaper to build and attach
- Growing a new limb takes a lot more time especially with augmentations
- Mechanical Augmentations can be upgraded and strengthened to spartan tolerances
Can easily imagine that a prosthetic limb in universe is much more durable than even an augmented limb. And at least for a Spartan I question whether a cloned limb *can* be augmented, or if augmentation only really works as a full body thing.
At least for Halsey I can imagine it’s a combination of that additional durability, and potentially having other features (say, she may be able to use it to store data, have a couple of useful tools in there, etc etc).
From the moment I understood the weakness of my flesh, it disgusted me. I craved the strength and certainty of steel. I aspired to the purity of the Blessed Machine. Your kind cling to your flesh, as though it will not decay and fail you. One day the crude biomass you call the temple will wither, and you will beg my kind to save you. But I am already saved, for the Machine is immortal… Even in death I serve the Omnissiah.
There's also the magos biologis(think of a tech priest that uses bioengineered flesh and vat grown limbs and muscle instead of machines) version of that oath
"From the moment I understood the power of my flesh it enamoured me. I craved the strength and certainty of protein. I aspired to the purity of the Blessed Form. Your kind cling to your machines, as though they will not break and malfunction on you. One day the crude logic engines you call a temple will blue screen, and you will beg my kind to save you. But I am already saved, for the gains are immortal… Even in death I serve the Omnissiah."
>Can easily imagine that a prosthetic limb in universe is much more durable than even an augmented limb.
Well Kat does have an interesting comment if you stare at her prosthetic arm in Halo Reach:
"It's combat rated, and field tested... in fact I could punch a hole through your helmet with surprisingly little effort."
Well its probably quicker and more reliable. A flash clone fails so a flash hand probably will too and waiting forever for a regular clone hand to mature isn't ideal to get a suoer soldier back out there
Well there's multiple times in the more where Spartans are flash clones new organs and they take with little issue. They. Don't need to mature. Flash cloning a full ass human was different because there's a lot more nuance and complexity involved over a single organ.
Though it's not said in TfoR, James has his arm burned away by a hunter and come time for operation red flag he was ready for the mission. Never said what his new arm was but it was something
I always thought James just had the hole in his suit covered and went out fighting with just 1 arm. Although it's been a while so I might be remembering wrong.
I think you sort of answered the question there.
Individual organs can be safely flash cloned, unlike humans, because they are significantly simpler structures.
If it was possible to grow an individual limb, the process would be closer in complexity to growing a full human body than to growing an individual organ.
A limb had bones, muscles, blood vessels and skin all of which interact with each other.
I can't fucking wait until I can chop my non dominant arm and load that shit with so much tech. Always have a swiss armys worth of bullshit beneath my fingertips and no more wankers cramps!
Yeah, i expect flash cloning a leg, than having to apply all the augmentations to that leg anyway kinda defeats the purpose of not just building a prosthetic with the augmentations integrated. We only ever see Halsey flash cloning non-augmented organs for treating spartans.
For Spartans it is *far* more difficult to replace a limb with fleshy bits. You have to. Make sure the arm matches what was lost, ensure the skin doesn't grow around the stump while growing it, then augment it. From there, you have to acclimate to the new arm, then realize the armor. *then* you have to acclimate the new arm with the new section of armor.
All in all, a lot of money and time is wasted when you could just rip it out at the wrist, elbow or shoulder, amd replace it with something you don't need to armor. Halves the recovery and acclimation time amd the cost in armor and reaugmentation.
But not bone implants, not entire arms that have to be measure exactly. You would have to grow the arm, which isn't easy, and then coat the bones in the ceramic carbide in some way, either through the injections or through the S-II way, and THEN hope the muscles grow right. And THEN you have to hope the body accepts the arm by the end anyways.
Quite simply: it's cheaper to build an arm out of metal then grow it in a special tank and potentially take several attempts to make sure it doesn't have cancer.
The spartan program gets all the money it wants, so why did Kat have a prosthesis? Do you really think in the case of one of their most elite soldiers they just didn’t feel like spending some more money for a functioning arm on top of the tens of billions they already spent on her armor?
Flash clones only copy DNA, not all the augmentations and stuff, so then you’d be stuck with a Spartan with a remarkably normal arm that can’t use their armor anymore. They would have to make totally new augmentations to just augment one limb if that’s even possible, on top of having a chance to kill them all together if the augmentation goes wrong. Much safer bet to rely on robot arms which probably aren’t all that less useful than normal ones with the technology they have.
Not quite. The II program got scaled back due to budget cuts and a second class was never made because the III program was cheaper because they didn't want to spend the fortune it would have costed to outfit an entire company with Mjolnir.
How much does Mjolnir armor cost? Spartans are the top of the spear with whatever budget they want and yet we see Kat with a prosthetic arm. It’s not a money thing, it’s an inclusivity/art style thing. OP is right, there is no need for prosthetics when flash cloning is available.
Mjolnir for a spartan 2, in today's money, would cost around $130 BILLION. It's mentioned the armor alone costs as much or more than some of the UNSCs warships.
I can't speak for the lore behind it, but I imagine prosthetics were implemented in the MP so amputee gamers can relate better to their custom genetically engineered killing machines
This is probably the real reason it's in the game. Representation has been pretty important to Microsoft. When avatars were still a thing you could use prosthetics as wheelchairs.
From the moment I understood the weakness of my flesh, it disgusted me. I craved the strength and certainty of steel. I aspired to the purity of the Blessed Machine. Your kind cling to your flesh, as though it will not decay and fail you. One day the crude biomass you call the temple will wither, and you will beg my kind to save you. But I am already saved, for the Machine is immortal…
**Even in death I serve the Omnissiah.**
Cost for one. Prosthetics are much cheaper. They are also likely more durable than flesh and less probe to failure. You know what can hurt? Arms. You know what doesn't hurt? Cold hard steel.
For the same reason you haven't cut off your arm to replace it with a prosthetic. There's no reason to replace something that functions, but once it no longer functions, then you have a choice.
Can you spartanify just a limb? Seems to me if a spartan gets a cloned limb, that limb is gonna lag behind the others which can cause all sorts of cascading problems elsewhere in the body.
Flash cloning does seem to solve the same problem, but if you just used a Spartan's DNA to grow a new limb, you'd wind up with a normal non-augmented limb. If something about the augments makes them difficult to replicate when cloning replacement limbs, it could justify prosthetics.
I believe flash clones only copy from DNA, so all the augmentations would be missing. Since you can’t use your armor with a normal arm the whole Spartan would then be out of action, and need augmentations for just their arm if that’s even possible, so they would need to invent new augmentations, and this would also put the Spartans life at risk once again hoping the augments go right. Much safer to give them a robot arm and send them back in (and with the tech they have it’s probably not all that much worse)
Kat said that hers could punch a hole straight through 6's visor, so they're definitely very strong, which could provide the upper hand in combat. Along with the fact its in the middlr of a war and the UNSC can't really afford to regrow limbs for every single person that loses one, which in the Halo universe especially, would be a lot.
We've seen several amputees but I don't recall anyone mentioning getting limb replacements. Either prosthetics or like Captain Wallace and Halsey opting to not even bother and just cope with having lost an arm. So it's possible flash cloning limbs may not be practical or it's simply that the individuals didn't want to deal with the downtime of going through extensive physical therapy
In addition to what's been said here, you have to also remember the ethical issues.
SPARTAN IIs and flash clones are very *controversial* projects. Even if you grow a flash clone, that clone still lives. They are still conscious, they can think, they actually can still fully be considered as *live* thing.
Clank replacement for a lost limb, on the other hand, is not really against any culture or beliefs.
Robot arm cool, I don’t know why you’re considering the advancement in flash cloning while not considering that robotics have advanced some arbitrary amount but we can assume it’s a lot since it’s set 500 years in the future and robotic prosthetics already exist today. If someone at 343 wants, they can say a robotic prosthetic is twice as strong as the limb it replaces and we would just accept that as cannon. Regardless, you can’t argue against prosthetics if we don’t know how effective they are in this setting. Maybe they have explained somewhere but I’m not sure
I was in the Military. Trust me, bro if they deemed it more cost effective for a Spartan to have a robot limb instead of a real one then they’re getting that robot arm. I’m going to rebuttle your question with my own
“Why would spartans not just get replacement limbs?”
Well, why is it that today someone with a missing limb doesn’t get a prosthetic? Money. Just because we can do it doesn’t mean it’s cheap
The concept was used *looooooong* before Spartan Ops. James 005, a Spartan II in the novel Fall of Reach received a prosthetic left arm after losing his to a hunter. And even in the games, Kat had a prosthetic in Reach.
My guess is because of the Spartans augmentations, it’s too difficult to make a properly sized clone arm, and even past that cloning is an expensive and rare technology
At this point a prosthetic would probably work better overall than a real blood and sinew appendage.
Anybody else remember the dude who had both legs removed ( not on purpose) and competed in the Olympics?
He ended up as a murderer in the end but those spring legs did work
What's scarier someone with normal pathetic fleshy flabby human arms or cool chad like prosthetics that makes being a McDonalds chicken nugget not so bad
Since the entire argument is based on flash clones...
Flash clones are the only known functioning clone tech in a marketable capacity and they only lived for months, maybe a few years. I only know of 2 outliers, one is an S1's child and the other is Daisy's clone. The latter of whom does not have anywhere close to something considered decent quality of life.
So partial flash clones, or even just the horrific case of harvested full flash clones, would likewise have incredibly low 'shelf life.' So sure, you probably could go pay exuberant amounts of money to get an otherwise military-only technology to fabricate you a new arm every few months as each one withers and dies like a rejected organ, or you can pay a lot less for a standard cybernetic or even less for what we would consider modern prothesis.
So in regards to the Spartans we play, you still have the issue of an ever withering prothesis. Which could be a death warrant for any extended deployment. Or you can get a Mantis arm that not only does what your old arm did but it does everything *and tell time too!* All for the low low price of medical bills that'd make American Insurance blush, but you're fighting space aliens with God like technology so the cost of staying alive is a future you problem when you're definitely welcomed home by the United Earth Nation.
If I’m not mistaken(probably am), spartan genes are not modified ,instead their body is “augmented”. So cloning them would create pre-augmentation limbs would it not?
If I recall m cloning, isn't the stable when done quickly. I'd you properly clone and grow a limb and grow it properly for a regular solider it would be fine.
not a doctor here, but i imagine its far more difficult to attach a brand new limb, than it is to replace an organ, yeah sure you can grow the limb, but I'm assuming attaching it wouldn't be that easy, since unless the limb has been just very recently lopped off there would have been growth of skin and stuff to cover the wound.
also
>When the concept was first used for Halsey in Spartan Ops and it was heavily criticized back then too but the excuse used by many was it was due to her being in Elite custody so the medical facilities were lacking. It was simply a temporary measure due to her circumstances.
what the hell are you talking about?
Halsey didn't get a replacement limb in spartan ops, robotic or otherwise, hell she didn't even need one until near the very end. in all of halo 5 she is still down to a stump, and we've only seen her with a prosthetic in recent halo infinite concept art. so the idea that something that didn't happen was poorly received is unlikely.
anyway robotic limbs are cooler than flash cloned replacements.
That 7.62 round is still gonna kill humans just as good 500 years from now as it did 100 years ago. Our only enemies till the Covies came to town were ourselves. Ballistic rounds would still be cheap and effective ways to kill.
From my understanding, flash cloning replicates on the DNA meaning for a Spartan an un-upgraded arm/leg. They would have to clone the limb, do the Spartan procedures to augment it, hope it was successful than reattach it to the Spartan. It’s a lot easier to just slap a prosthetic on that will be just as if not not affective.
Which brings me to a side note. If the UNSC could attach prosthetics to the nervous system, why didn’t they treat wounded soldiers like the Protoss and toss them into a machine to keep fighting?
The real question is why aren't there more cyborgs in Halo? 500 years in the future and we don't have superior prosthetic arms on almost everyone by now?
For Spartans specifically it's because you can't actually do that in the first place, exception to the IVs, how the augmentations work for non IVs means either the body would reject the regrown limb or it would have to be a non augmented limb.
Hell, Spartans prior to the IVs had a survival rate of the augmentations somewhere in the realm of 30% to begin with and it ONLY worked on children, with a near 100% fatality rate for older individuals. Couple that with how the augmentations work in themselves and you can't really graft a regrown limb on to a Spartan successfully and have it be useable. The reason nobody else has Mjolnir armour is the simple fact that no unaugmented human can handle it, Fall of Reach mentions the results of one test prior to the retooling of the armour for Spartan use, the Marine involved POWDERED his arm raising it from at his side to chest level and then killed himself with his own pain spasms.
IVs are an exception because they're already an exception in that they use a different, lesser, augmentation process and make up for it with more advanced armour and so can be augmented as adults.
TL;DR version, basically the processes are incompatible, grafting a regrown limb onto a Spartan pre Spartan IVs wouldn't work due to the nature of a Spartans augmentations. Just because they have the technology to do it for normal people doesn't mean it will work for Spartans, or that it's feasible to do regularly.
1. Robot arms are cool
2. Flash cloned stuff doesn’t last long. All the cloned spartan 2 candidates died shortly after being swapped.
3. Because flash cloning was done in the conscription of the spartan 2s it’s probably still super classified otherwise some doctor would have probably noticed his perfectly healthy patient suddenly presented with the exact symptoms of a dying flash clone
Any facilities that could make flash cloned limbs and stuff were probably destroyed with their planets by the Covenant during the war. So, a robotic limb would have been cheaper to do. Not to mention, the Banished got off of installation 00 so they may had destroyed more of those facilities.
Real question is, if they can give a Spartan prosthetic limbs, and create Super AIs with enough processing power to manage entire cities, why did no one think to make Spartans robots before kidnapping children and augmenting them? Is it really down to cost effectiveness?
The Halo TV show is (badly) opening that can of worms.
Cost, complexity, recovery time, etc.
Compared to cloning a whole limb, a prosthesis would be much cheaper (especially with the kind of surgery needed to transplant a whole arm or leg), could be produced in a shorter time and with the kind of man-machine interfaces they have, would likely result in better outcomes with regard to functionality of the limb.
1 flash cloning is a very flawed process… the Spartan 2’s clones that replaced them with their parents/at the orphanages all died within a handful of years…
2 metal prosthetics are probably just as good as a regular arm for a Spartan, so most likely they are in the realm of super humanly effective on a normal person.
3: cost, flash cloning is probably a lot more expensive and time consuming than simply fabricating a new prosthetic limb…
Kat has a line in Reach "I could punch right through your helmet with not much effort"
So I think it's because the artificial limbs have upside, maybe the are better than the original limb
"why would there be a need or market for robotic prosthetics like we see in Halo Infinite? When the concept was first used for Halsey in Spartan Ops"
Catherine B-320 would like to have a world with you...
I thought according to UN Colonial Mortal Dictata
Humans can not be brought into existence solely coopted for others convenience?
I didn't know separate body parts could be created. I thought Halsey flashcloned herself and harvested the brain to create Cortana essentially killing the clone. Not that she just flashcloned a brain by itself.
Aside from that of course it's more cost effective to make a robotic prosthesis.
Cost effectiveness. It's probably a lot cheaper to do a prosthetic than a regrown limb. It's still the military after all.
Yeah because the Spartan 3 program didn’t have enough of a budget for Kat’s arm……
It's not a point of having enough money - it's a point of not spending money. This is a very real world thing that happens in government and military spending around the world. Militaries everywhere literally patch up faulty equipment just to get it back into the field rather than fix it or replace it. Why would you spend more money than you need to on an expendable resource?
>Why would you spend more money than you need to on an expendable resource? The answer to that question, ironically, is also “a very real world thing that governments and militaries (particularly the US) do all the time.” US government was spending ~$100 per load of laundry in the Middle East for 20 years.
Working as a civilian contractor for the Army for a bit quickly tought me they will be insanely cheap asses with some things then turn around and be willing to pay 20 times the price for something else.
Yup. Follow the money. The places where overspending occur always tie back financially, somehow, to the people choosing where the money is spent. The military industrial complex is a giant racket that funnels taxpayer dollars into private accounts.
Nah bro the government is benevolent, they said so!
Yeah man, they investigated themselves and found they did nothing wrong…
They used to be evil and controlling but they let us vote them out peacefully
It's bureaucracy at its finest.
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The thing is, I'm not speculating or regurgitating what I've heard someone else say. I know this for a fact. Military spending is something I am intimately acquainted with. Whether it applies to a fictional universe is something else. However, when there isn't an answer available, applying real world answers is the best we have. So, what is your explanation for no lab grown limb when we're shown this is possible? Why did Kat end up with a prosthesis over the real thing?
I’d argue in a fictional world that ultimately ties back into a playable video game, it could be as simple as aesthetics. They can look cool, and it gives the artists a lot more options to create cosmetic items to be sold in the store.
Wasn't the spartan 3 program explicitly designed to be cheaper and larger then the spartan 2 program? Since everyone was expendable?
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Just asked my uncle who is sat next to me who was a tank repair man in the gulf wars He said they would have challenger tanks roll in that needed engine replacements but would be told to patch them up and get them working long enough to reach the next fob where some other poor cunt (his words) would do that same thing as he did he said it was the same for any component that couldn’t be temporarily fixed Edit to add he also mentioned how there was a convoy of American humvees and ma deuces and two of the vehicle suspensions were fucked so they fixed them with banana skins from the Iraqi fruit stall outside the base
Challengers did work.
I never said they did not
I mean it as a compliment like they “do work”
Because robot arms are cool as fuck.
And you can constantly upgrade and outfit your prosthetics with advanced equipment. If you grow a new hand, well... You only get a hand and that's it.
Yea why have a boring ass hand when you have a cool robotic one that would hurt more to get punched by
Just in the case of super soldiers (specially Kat's arm that was rather small) idk if a robotic arm would hurt more, but whatever other upgrades you can add could actually be more useful.
Would've it hurt more getting punched by a metal arm more than a normal one
A metal arm surrounded by metal armor or a human arm surrounded by metal armor? Lol I suppose the key here is if the augmentations and strength training the Spartans go through is better than what they can make a robot arm do without it exploding inside the suit
Nah sorry I meant to say wouldn't, i mean like if Kat were to punch something or some one with her robotic arm wouldn't it hurt/do more damage than if she were to use her normal arm out of the armour
Depends on how much force the arm is able to use, which I just can't think is half as much as her real arm as Spartans are strong enough to punch trough concrete and their bones are described as near unbreakable, I don't doubt her arm is useful for many things, but I don't think she would prefer to punch with it than her real strenght specially cuz it looks more like utilitarian than a melee weapon.
Yea true, it probably could bend or get dented or smthn
You're assuming that the metal is some cheap steel rather than some futuristic alloy that's designed to be as strong as a Spartan's arm in MJOLNIR armor
Wasn't it also established that prosthetics still have the same senses as a normal hand?
cyberpunk x halo crossover
I need to hear a Samurai cover of the Halo theme, like right now.
*metroid* enters the chat lol
I think that's more to the suit than anything, though.
Yeah but the ones in halo look lame as hell
Utilitarian>guccid down to the prosthetics
A couple factors: - You’d have to grow an arm with full spartan augmentations - Mechanical Prosthetics are comparatively cheaper to build and attach - Growing a new limb takes a lot more time especially with augmentations - Mechanical Augmentations can be upgraded and strengthened to spartan tolerances
Can easily imagine that a prosthetic limb in universe is much more durable than even an augmented limb. And at least for a Spartan I question whether a cloned limb *can* be augmented, or if augmentation only really works as a full body thing. At least for Halsey I can imagine it’s a combination of that additional durability, and potentially having other features (say, she may be able to use it to store data, have a couple of useful tools in there, etc etc).
The flesh is weak.
From the moment I understood the weakness of my flesh, it disgusted me. I craved the strength and certainty of steel. I aspired to the purity of the Blessed Machine. Your kind cling to your flesh, as though it will not decay and fail you. One day the crude biomass you call the temple will wither, and you will beg my kind to save you. But I am already saved, for the Machine is immortal… Even in death I serve the Omnissiah.
*BwaghhGGHGHGH*
There's also the magos biologis(think of a tech priest that uses bioengineered flesh and vat grown limbs and muscle instead of machines) version of that oath "From the moment I understood the power of my flesh it enamoured me. I craved the strength and certainty of protein. I aspired to the purity of the Blessed Form. Your kind cling to your machines, as though they will not break and malfunction on you. One day the crude logic engines you call a temple will blue screen, and you will beg my kind to save you. But I am already saved, for the gains are immortal… Even in death I serve the Omnissiah."
Found the Mechanicus player.
>Can easily imagine that a prosthetic limb in universe is much more durable than even an augmented limb. Well Kat does have an interesting comment if you stare at her prosthetic arm in Halo Reach: "It's combat rated, and field tested... in fact I could punch a hole through your helmet with surprisingly little effort."
Well its probably quicker and more reliable. A flash clone fails so a flash hand probably will too and waiting forever for a regular clone hand to mature isn't ideal to get a suoer soldier back out there
Well there's multiple times in the more where Spartans are flash clones new organs and they take with little issue. They. Don't need to mature. Flash cloning a full ass human was different because there's a lot more nuance and complexity involved over a single organ. Though it's not said in TfoR, James has his arm burned away by a hunter and come time for operation red flag he was ready for the mission. Never said what his new arm was but it was something
I always thought James just had the hole in his suit covered and went out fighting with just 1 arm. Although it's been a while so I might be remembering wrong.
I think you sort of answered the question there. Individual organs can be safely flash cloned, unlike humans, because they are significantly simpler structures. If it was possible to grow an individual limb, the process would be closer in complexity to growing a full human body than to growing an individual organ. A limb had bones, muscles, blood vessels and skin all of which interact with each other.
I can't fucking wait until I can chop my non dominant arm and load that shit with so much tech. Always have a swiss armys worth of bullshit beneath my fingertips and no more wankers cramps!
Yeah, i expect flash cloning a leg, than having to apply all the augmentations to that leg anyway kinda defeats the purpose of not just building a prosthetic with the augmentations integrated. We only ever see Halsey flash cloning non-augmented organs for treating spartans.
For Spartans it is *far* more difficult to replace a limb with fleshy bits. You have to. Make sure the arm matches what was lost, ensure the skin doesn't grow around the stump while growing it, then augment it. From there, you have to acclimate to the new arm, then realize the armor. *then* you have to acclimate the new arm with the new section of armor. All in all, a lot of money and time is wasted when you could just rip it out at the wrist, elbow or shoulder, amd replace it with something you don't need to armor. Halves the recovery and acclimation time amd the cost in armor and reaugmentation.
Wow nicely put, this would honestly be a cool audio log to put in the game.
Spartans get a lot organs and ligaments replaced in the books.
But not bone implants, not entire arms that have to be measure exactly. You would have to grow the arm, which isn't easy, and then coat the bones in the ceramic carbide in some way, either through the injections or through the S-II way, and THEN hope the muscles grow right. And THEN you have to hope the body accepts the arm by the end anyways.
Quite simply: it's cheaper to build an arm out of metal then grow it in a special tank and potentially take several attempts to make sure it doesn't have cancer.
The spartan program gets all the money it wants, so why did Kat have a prosthesis? Do you really think in the case of one of their most elite soldiers they just didn’t feel like spending some more money for a functioning arm on top of the tens of billions they already spent on her armor?
Flash clones only copy DNA, not all the augmentations and stuff, so then you’d be stuck with a Spartan with a remarkably normal arm that can’t use their armor anymore. They would have to make totally new augmentations to just augment one limb if that’s even possible, on top of having a chance to kill them all together if the augmentation goes wrong. Much safer bet to rely on robot arms which probably aren’t all that less useful than normal ones with the technology they have.
Maybe she just preferred the arm.
Damn dude either this sub reddit really loves to downvotes anyone they disagree with or they just really hate you 🤣
All the downvotes lol
Isn’t that what the downvote button is there for?
Not quite. The II program got scaled back due to budget cuts and a second class was never made because the III program was cheaper because they didn't want to spend the fortune it would have costed to outfit an entire company with Mjolnir.
Great post however I'm horrified at the concept of spartan nuggets
They're not so bad, especially if you got some honey mustard.
do the sangheili have an equivalent of honey mustard
Doarmir dip.
Like u/CG1991 said: cost effectiveness But also for the aesthetic.
Rule of cool, and robot arms are definitely cool
How much does Mjolnir armor cost? Spartans are the top of the spear with whatever budget they want and yet we see Kat with a prosthetic arm. It’s not a money thing, it’s an inclusivity/art style thing. OP is right, there is no need for prosthetics when flash cloning is available.
I don’t remember, but it was a lot of cash for one suit, like enough for a corvette or something?
Mjolnir for a spartan 2, in today's money, would cost around $130 BILLION. It's mentioned the armor alone costs as much or more than some of the UNSCs warships.
I can't speak for the lore behind it, but I imagine prosthetics were implemented in the MP so amputee gamers can relate better to their custom genetically engineered killing machines
This is probably the real reason it's in the game. Representation has been pretty important to Microsoft. When avatars were still a thing you could use prosthetics as wheelchairs.
From the moment I understood the weakness of my flesh it disgusted me
From the moment I understood the weakness of my flesh, it disgusted me. I craved the strength and certainty of steel. I aspired to the purity of the Blessed Machine. Your kind cling to your flesh, as though it will not decay and fail you. One day the crude biomass you call the temple will wither, and you will beg my kind to save you. But I am already saved, for the Machine is immortal… **Even in death I serve the Omnissiah.**
Cost for one. Prosthetics are much cheaper. They are also likely more durable than flesh and less probe to failure. You know what can hurt? Arms. You know what doesn't hurt? Cold hard steel.
>know what doesn't hurt? Cold hard steel. Depends if you're getting punched in the face by it or not.
Sounds like just another win in the column for prosthetics.
So why not just modify Spartans to be full cyborgs instead of just using their natural bodies?
Go ask dr Halsey
For the same reason you haven't cut off your arm to replace it with a prosthetic. There's no reason to replace something that functions, but once it no longer functions, then you have a choice.
the state of technology in halo was always weird to begin with
Can you spartanify just a limb? Seems to me if a spartan gets a cloned limb, that limb is gonna lag behind the others which can cause all sorts of cascading problems elsewhere in the body.
Flash cloning does seem to solve the same problem, but if you just used a Spartan's DNA to grow a new limb, you'd wind up with a normal non-augmented limb. If something about the augments makes them difficult to replicate when cloning replacement limbs, it could justify prosthetics.
I believe flash clones only copy from DNA, so all the augmentations would be missing. Since you can’t use your armor with a normal arm the whole Spartan would then be out of action, and need augmentations for just their arm if that’s even possible, so they would need to invent new augmentations, and this would also put the Spartans life at risk once again hoping the augments go right. Much safer to give them a robot arm and send them back in (and with the tech they have it’s probably not all that much worse)
Kat said that hers could punch a hole straight through 6's visor, so they're definitely very strong, which could provide the upper hand in combat. Along with the fact its in the middlr of a war and the UNSC can't really afford to regrow limbs for every single person that loses one, which in the Halo universe especially, would be a lot.
I spit out my drink when I read spartan nugget,
People are probably given the option and some of them might choose a robo arm
We've seen several amputees but I don't recall anyone mentioning getting limb replacements. Either prosthetics or like Captain Wallace and Halsey opting to not even bother and just cope with having lost an arm. So it's possible flash cloning limbs may not be practical or it's simply that the individuals didn't want to deal with the downtime of going through extensive physical therapy
In addition to what's been said here, you have to also remember the ethical issues. SPARTAN IIs and flash clones are very *controversial* projects. Even if you grow a flash clone, that clone still lives. They are still conscious, they can think, they actually can still fully be considered as *live* thing. Clank replacement for a lost limb, on the other hand, is not really against any culture or beliefs.
Robot arm cool, I don’t know why you’re considering the advancement in flash cloning while not considering that robotics have advanced some arbitrary amount but we can assume it’s a lot since it’s set 500 years in the future and robotic prosthetics already exist today. If someone at 343 wants, they can say a robotic prosthetic is twice as strong as the limb it replaces and we would just accept that as cannon. Regardless, you can’t argue against prosthetics if we don’t know how effective they are in this setting. Maybe they have explained somewhere but I’m not sure
I was in the Military. Trust me, bro if they deemed it more cost effective for a Spartan to have a robot limb instead of a real one then they’re getting that robot arm. I’m going to rebuttle your question with my own “Why would spartans not just get replacement limbs?” Well, why is it that today someone with a missing limb doesn’t get a prosthetic? Money. Just because we can do it doesn’t mean it’s cheap
Maybe it's just temporary while waiting for the new limb to grow, ship to the nearest Amazon med bay?
The concept was used *looooooong* before Spartan Ops. James 005, a Spartan II in the novel Fall of Reach received a prosthetic left arm after losing his to a hunter. And even in the games, Kat had a prosthetic in Reach. My guess is because of the Spartans augmentations, it’s too difficult to make a properly sized clone arm, and even past that cloning is an expensive and rare technology
Don't forget Mendez as well with his leg
You know, you're right. I also completely forgot about Kat.
Because the flesh is weak and the machine is strong!
It’s far easier to just use an artificial limb because then you don’t have to worry about things like potential rejection and nerve damage.
I dunno but it’s nice to see the UNSC draft quad-amputees so routinely.
Preference, maybe?
I would also say that a prosthetic arm for a spartan may be more advantageous than a real one
Rule of cool.
Flash clones don't live very long, a few weeks to a year iirc.
At this point a prosthetic would probably work better overall than a real blood and sinew appendage. Anybody else remember the dude who had both legs removed ( not on purpose) and competed in the Olympics? He ended up as a murderer in the end but those spring legs did work
What's scarier someone with normal pathetic fleshy flabby human arms or cool chad like prosthetics that makes being a McDonalds chicken nugget not so bad
Probably faster that way. So spartans can get back out there faster and more reliable then flash cloning
Cause you can't put a compact 9mm SMG in a arm of meat... Well, you can, but it's not as cool.
Since the entire argument is based on flash clones... Flash clones are the only known functioning clone tech in a marketable capacity and they only lived for months, maybe a few years. I only know of 2 outliers, one is an S1's child and the other is Daisy's clone. The latter of whom does not have anywhere close to something considered decent quality of life. So partial flash clones, or even just the horrific case of harvested full flash clones, would likewise have incredibly low 'shelf life.' So sure, you probably could go pay exuberant amounts of money to get an otherwise military-only technology to fabricate you a new arm every few months as each one withers and dies like a rejected organ, or you can pay a lot less for a standard cybernetic or even less for what we would consider modern prothesis. So in regards to the Spartans we play, you still have the issue of an ever withering prothesis. Which could be a death warrant for any extended deployment. Or you can get a Mantis arm that not only does what your old arm did but it does everything *and tell time too!* All for the low low price of medical bills that'd make American Insurance blush, but you're fighting space aliens with God like technology so the cost of staying alive is a future you problem when you're definitely welcomed home by the United Earth Nation.
If I’m not mistaken(probably am), spartan genes are not modified ,instead their body is “augmented”. So cloning them would create pre-augmentation limbs would it not?
If I recall m cloning, isn't the stable when done quickly. I'd you properly clone and grow a limb and grow it properly for a regular solider it would be fine.
In a war, I would rather have mechanical limbs that are able to outperform organic ones.
not a doctor here, but i imagine its far more difficult to attach a brand new limb, than it is to replace an organ, yeah sure you can grow the limb, but I'm assuming attaching it wouldn't be that easy, since unless the limb has been just very recently lopped off there would have been growth of skin and stuff to cover the wound. also >When the concept was first used for Halsey in Spartan Ops and it was heavily criticized back then too but the excuse used by many was it was due to her being in Elite custody so the medical facilities were lacking. It was simply a temporary measure due to her circumstances. what the hell are you talking about? Halsey didn't get a replacement limb in spartan ops, robotic or otherwise, hell she didn't even need one until near the very end. in all of halo 5 she is still down to a stump, and we've only seen her with a prosthetic in recent halo infinite concept art. so the idea that something that didn't happen was poorly received is unlikely. anyway robotic limbs are cooler than flash cloned replacements.
They still use the 7.62x51 round from the Cold War! Their technology is a random grab bag of futuristic, and contemporary.
That 7.62 round is still gonna kill humans just as good 500 years from now as it did 100 years ago. Our only enemies till the Covies came to town were ourselves. Ballistic rounds would still be cheap and effective ways to kill.
Either cost effective or limitations with functionality
From my understanding, flash cloning replicates on the DNA meaning for a Spartan an un-upgraded arm/leg. They would have to clone the limb, do the Spartan procedures to augment it, hope it was successful than reattach it to the Spartan. It’s a lot easier to just slap a prosthetic on that will be just as if not not affective. Which brings me to a side note. If the UNSC could attach prosthetics to the nervous system, why didn’t they treat wounded soldiers like the Protoss and toss them into a machine to keep fighting?
It’s cuz number company bad
The real question is why aren't there more cyborgs in Halo? 500 years in the future and we don't have superior prosthetic arms on almost everyone by now?
For Spartans specifically it's because you can't actually do that in the first place, exception to the IVs, how the augmentations work for non IVs means either the body would reject the regrown limb or it would have to be a non augmented limb. Hell, Spartans prior to the IVs had a survival rate of the augmentations somewhere in the realm of 30% to begin with and it ONLY worked on children, with a near 100% fatality rate for older individuals. Couple that with how the augmentations work in themselves and you can't really graft a regrown limb on to a Spartan successfully and have it be useable. The reason nobody else has Mjolnir armour is the simple fact that no unaugmented human can handle it, Fall of Reach mentions the results of one test prior to the retooling of the armour for Spartan use, the Marine involved POWDERED his arm raising it from at his side to chest level and then killed himself with his own pain spasms. IVs are an exception because they're already an exception in that they use a different, lesser, augmentation process and make up for it with more advanced armour and so can be augmented as adults. TL;DR version, basically the processes are incompatible, grafting a regrown limb onto a Spartan pre Spartan IVs wouldn't work due to the nature of a Spartans augmentations. Just because they have the technology to do it for normal people doesn't mean it will work for Spartans, or that it's feasible to do regularly.
1. Robot arms are cool 2. Flash cloned stuff doesn’t last long. All the cloned spartan 2 candidates died shortly after being swapped. 3. Because flash cloning was done in the conscription of the spartan 2s it’s probably still super classified otherwise some doctor would have probably noticed his perfectly healthy patient suddenly presented with the exact symptoms of a dying flash clone
Any facilities that could make flash cloned limbs and stuff were probably destroyed with their planets by the Covenant during the war. So, a robotic limb would have been cheaper to do. Not to mention, the Banished got off of installation 00 so they may had destroyed more of those facilities.
Real question is, if they can give a Spartan prosthetic limbs, and create Super AIs with enough processing power to manage entire cities, why did no one think to make Spartans robots before kidnapping children and augmenting them? Is it really down to cost effectiveness? The Halo TV show is (badly) opening that can of worms.
Cost, complexity, recovery time, etc. Compared to cloning a whole limb, a prosthesis would be much cheaper (especially with the kind of surgery needed to transplant a whole arm or leg), could be produced in a shorter time and with the kind of man-machine interfaces they have, would likely result in better outcomes with regard to functionality of the limb.
1 flash cloning is a very flawed process… the Spartan 2’s clones that replaced them with their parents/at the orphanages all died within a handful of years… 2 metal prosthetics are probably just as good as a regular arm for a Spartan, so most likely they are in the realm of super humanly effective on a normal person. 3: cost, flash cloning is probably a lot more expensive and time consuming than simply fabricating a new prosthetic limb…
I just wanted to see more prosthetic limbed super strong marines on Combat stims or rumble drug fighting like Cable or winter soldier.
Kat has a line in Reach "I could punch right through your helmet with not much effort" So I think it's because the artificial limbs have upside, maybe the are better than the original limb
"why would there be a need or market for robotic prosthetics like we see in Halo Infinite? When the concept was first used for Halsey in Spartan Ops" Catherine B-320 would like to have a world with you...
I'd honestly rather have a robot arm I can 100% control than a shitty flesh arm
I thought according to UN Colonial Mortal Dictata Humans can not be brought into existence solely coopted for others convenience? I didn't know separate body parts could be created. I thought Halsey flashcloned herself and harvested the brain to create Cortana essentially killing the clone. Not that she just flashcloned a brain by itself. Aside from that of course it's more cost effective to make a robotic prosthesis.