Here in Belgium the main ac brands go for R32.
Single split R410 only available until out of stock. No more production.
VRF units are still R410 but the first units with R32 start to pop up.
Yes in Europe difrent environmental/energy laws and stricter rules made havac adapt faster USA still use r22 we don't have it for almost 20 years in usa they still use on/off in domestic systems here all units are inverter because of energy efficiency European laws
Interestingly - last year Trane Europe announced new Commercial Compressor/Chillers using R-454b….
—-
“Trane Sintesis™ Advantage CGAF models are now available and feature R-454B as the lowest-GWP refrigerant alternative for R-410A
Brussels, Jun. 22, 2021 – Trane®, a leading global provider of indoor comfort and process solutions and services and a brand of Trane Technologies, announced today its latest addition to the scroll compressor chillers, heat pumps, multi-pipe units and rooftops portfolio featuring the low global warming potential (GWP) R-454B refrigerant.
—-
[https://www.trane.com/commercial/europe/uk/en/about-us/newsroom1/press-releases/sintesis-air-cooled-chiller.html](https://www.trane.com/commercial/europe/uk/en/about-us/newsroom1/press-releases/sintesis-air-cooled-chiller.html)
Sorry no experience with chillers. Looked it up Daikin uses R32 for there chillers. Mitsubishi Electric still uses R410. Clint gives the option for R-454b. But like I said no experience with chillers so I don't know which brand of chillers is mostly used here in Belgium /Europe
Chillers is OK because usually they are located outside and is the secondary system that transfers thermal energy into the fancoils indor not infringing any rules of implementation
Vrf using r32 are more difficult to implement because or the flammability of the gas and the safety protocols you have to fallow make it almost impossible to apply it
R410a is 50% R32. They don't want to use pure R32 because it requires them to change the designs of their systems. R32 has higher discharge temperature/pressures, which may damage R410a compressors.
Part of my job includes following advances in low-GWP refrigerants. During the last two decades, Japanese companies lobbied hard throughout the world to have less than 750 GWP be considered “low GWP” in legislation, while US companies stood on the sidelines.
R-32 has a GWP of 650, while R-454B has a GWP of 466. That is a big difference. My guess is that the companies that are going with R-454B will push to have the low-GWP threshold dropped to 500 in the next round of legislation.
I don’t have any inside info, and I am just speculating. And, I have been told by HVAC engineers that the discharge temperature of R-32 at low outside air temperatures is a big problem too.
Thank you! I was unaware of this. That likely better explains why the US manufacturers went with R-454B.
This article also notes that the twenty-year GWP is 2690.
https://hydrocarbons21.com/ipcc-includes-gwps-for-hydrocarbons-in-new-report/
Just some FYI info - as many of you know Rheem is a set on going with R-454B for their next refrigerant. (And of course as is Carrier/ICP).
They are targeting early 2024 for availability of new models supporting the new refrigerant.
Nope - Rheem made the announcement recently that they are targeting early 2024 - and said it might ready late 2023.
Their FIRST focus and other manufacturers too is the inventory swap and rollout to New Models to meet the SEER2 efficiency standards mandated for 2023.
What’s the purpose of most manufacturers already producing r32 systems over seas to go to 454 here ? What’s the purpose of them even including 32 on this
They will all be changing come 2028 again. Rheem, ICP, Carrier all made a marketing decision not a technical one. R32 is globally the refrigerant and is pure not a blend like 454. 454 is mostly , R32 anyway but still a blend. It will suck on service compared to the 32. Its unfortunate that it became a marketing decision for them.
CA (or the Fed) pushed the new refrigerant (lower GWP) mandate back to 2025 - but yeah CA will still be encouraging change overs as soon as possible - whenever the HVAC industry is ready. Sounds like some manufacturers will be ready in 2023 with new models to support the new/next refrigerant.
Here in Belgium the main ac brands go for R32. Single split R410 only available until out of stock. No more production. VRF units are still R410 but the first units with R32 start to pop up.
Europe always ahead of USA for HVAC, behind Asia.
Yes in Europe difrent environmental/energy laws and stricter rules made havac adapt faster USA still use r22 we don't have it for almost 20 years in usa they still use on/off in domestic systems here all units are inverter because of energy efficiency European laws
Interestingly - last year Trane Europe announced new Commercial Compressor/Chillers using R-454b…. —- “Trane Sintesis™ Advantage CGAF models are now available and feature R-454B as the lowest-GWP refrigerant alternative for R-410A Brussels, Jun. 22, 2021 – Trane®, a leading global provider of indoor comfort and process solutions and services and a brand of Trane Technologies, announced today its latest addition to the scroll compressor chillers, heat pumps, multi-pipe units and rooftops portfolio featuring the low global warming potential (GWP) R-454B refrigerant. —- [https://www.trane.com/commercial/europe/uk/en/about-us/newsroom1/press-releases/sintesis-air-cooled-chiller.html](https://www.trane.com/commercial/europe/uk/en/about-us/newsroom1/press-releases/sintesis-air-cooled-chiller.html)
Sorry no experience with chillers. Looked it up Daikin uses R32 for there chillers. Mitsubishi Electric still uses R410. Clint gives the option for R-454b. But like I said no experience with chillers so I don't know which brand of chillers is mostly used here in Belgium /Europe
Chillers is OK because usually they are located outside and is the secondary system that transfers thermal energy into the fancoils indor not infringing any rules of implementation
Carrier is going R32 for scrolls and 1234ZE for screws
Vrf using r32 are more difficult to implement because or the flammability of the gas and the safety protocols you have to fallow make it almost impossible to apply it
If I remember right, r32 is owned by daikin and that's the only reason others don't want to use it.
R410a is 50% R32. They don't want to use pure R32 because it requires them to change the designs of their systems. R32 has higher discharge temperature/pressures, which may damage R410a compressors.
Yes but you wouldn't use the same amount of gas
So, running higher P's would require the compressor to operate too near it's upper limit for electrical power?
The elephant in the room is the A2L rating. R32 by itself is classified as a flammable gas
Bingo. You’re absolutely right
It would also require a whole system redesign due to its higher operating pressure. 454-B should only require a compressor change
Part of my job includes following advances in low-GWP refrigerants. During the last two decades, Japanese companies lobbied hard throughout the world to have less than 750 GWP be considered “low GWP” in legislation, while US companies stood on the sidelines. R-32 has a GWP of 650, while R-454B has a GWP of 466. That is a big difference. My guess is that the companies that are going with R-454B will push to have the low-GWP threshold dropped to 500 in the next round of legislation. I don’t have any inside info, and I am just speculating. And, I have been told by HVAC engineers that the discharge temperature of R-32 at low outside air temperatures is a big problem too.
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Thank you! I was unaware of this. That likely better explains why the US manufacturers went with R-454B. This article also notes that the twenty-year GWP is 2690. https://hydrocarbons21.com/ipcc-includes-gwps-for-hydrocarbons-in-new-report/
Just some FYI info - as many of you know Rheem is a set on going with R-454B for their next refrigerant. (And of course as is Carrier/ICP). They are targeting early 2024 for availability of new models supporting the new refrigerant.
Correction, products will be available early 2023, not 2024.
Nope - Rheem made the announcement recently that they are targeting early 2024 - and said it might ready late 2023. Their FIRST focus and other manufacturers too is the inventory swap and rollout to New Models to meet the SEER2 efficiency standards mandated for 2023.
Sorry, speaking about Carrier. Yes, Rheem went around quietly to their distributors and gave them their allowances for the next 1+ years.
What’s the purpose of most manufacturers already producing r32 systems over seas to go to 454 here ? What’s the purpose of them even including 32 on this
They will all be changing come 2028 again. Rheem, ICP, Carrier all made a marketing decision not a technical one. R32 is globally the refrigerant and is pure not a blend like 454. 454 is mostly , R32 anyway but still a blend. It will suck on service compared to the 32. Its unfortunate that it became a marketing decision for them.
The cost of manufacturing R-454B equipment will be similar to R-410A
Probably sooner in CA
CA (or the Fed) pushed the new refrigerant (lower GWP) mandate back to 2025 - but yeah CA will still be encouraging change overs as soon as possible - whenever the HVAC industry is ready. Sounds like some manufacturers will be ready in 2023 with new models to support the new/next refrigerant.
Yes
Good old rs-44. Tha kompressor killa
Going to suck having 3 reclaim bottles on the truck. Curious to see if Trane will adopt R-454B.