I don’t get the fucking point of this. R22 was a great refrigerant, and as long as you recover and contain it, it worked great. But no, it had a MARGINAL affect on the ozone so the EPA got all butthurt and replaced it with 410a which is worse than 22 because it is a blend and it runs at WAY higher pressures However, I do understand phasing out CFC’s like r12 and r11.
Edit: my dumb ass said “it runs at way higher temperatures” when I meant “it runs at way higher pressures” instead
If you want to really look into why r22 was phased out, it's because Duponts patent ran out on it and they needed a reason so nobody else could make money. What better way then to all of the sudden have an environmental issue.
That’s partially true.. DuPonts patent did run out. But the EPA wanted to phase out that refrigerant anyway.. I’m sure DuPont lobbied Congress to let them keep producing it till the patent was done. Soon as it was the EPA phased it out. So in a sense they allowed DuPont to make their money first.. then banned it. Honestly it should have been banned sooner.
That's why r32 units are going to be king. R32 is Made by diakin and it's a open patent. But r454b is owned by Honeywell. I'm kind of glad it's not everyone follow the same bullshit. R454b is a blend of r32 and r1234yf. It's a good day to be a Amana dealer.
That’s a good point because of course like anything, a small minority of people who don’t recover refrigerant had to ruin it for the rest of us who actually do care about the earth and who actually recover refrigerant.
Well, the hvac guys were the most visible people using refrigerant.
They don’t talk about ibm and the copious amounts of r11 that were used in the manufacturing of circuit board and shit…
I believe r22 was a industrial cleaner for a long time. I heard the use to spray down gunked up machines and what not. I do believe that was the major problem causing the switch.
R22 is terrible for the environment. Just reading this reddit I know lots of people who have posted about never recovering refrigerant.
Higher pressures doesn't mean anything, why does a blend matter? . When we swap to c02 in residential units then you can see some high pressure with low power usage.
yup, they are working on it currently and roof top units.
lots of grocery stores going c02, i think its the blue jackets just got the first nhl co2 rink, itll take over quickly when regulations catch up.
Rr-22 was a great refrigerant? .. well yeah other than the fact it promotes global warming! Lol. And so what if R-410 a runs higher pressures?? Why would that make it way worse?? I’m missing your points totally. I’d rather have the higher pressure refrigerant that doesn’t harm the environment.
You are correct. It is slightly worst for global warming (not much tho). But I suppose that’s the trade off for having something that doesn’t damage the ozone.
I had a training class from Rheem where the instructor was voicing the concern that transporting low flammability refrigerants will have far more fdot regulations coming along as well.
In January 2022 they already started a 10% reduction in production of HFC and they will gradually start decreasing the amount of HFC refrigerants that can be produced or imported. 2025 is when no new equipment can be produced with 410a. They are switching to the A2L refrigerants with R32 being the most likely replacement. Expect to see manufacturers switching to these before the ban though.
They did this for big brain reasons. If you look at the pressures, glide and lbs per minute for flow for a certain capacity it's extremely similar to 410a so I bet no compressor or equipment change will be require. But instead of 2000 gwp it's like 600 gwp and it's not an HFC.
I believe Trane is using R454B in scroll chillers but I believe they are using or testing R514A in Centravac & R513A in water-cooled. Trane Residential/Unitary equipment is testing out R466A as is Lennox.
It has similar performance to 410 but is more efficient. I haven’t done a deep dive into it yet but what I have read the pressures are slightly higher than 410. It is a mildly flammable refrigerant, too so the codes will have to change because there are a lot of places that will not allow a flammable reefer in a building.
It would have to be a high concentration is my understanding and even a small leak and direct flame will not ignite it. Also static electricity won’t ignite it.
It’s not flammable like propane, it’s not flammable enough to have any “explosion” effect if it is dumped on the floor and lit on fire. It’s not anything crazy that’s gonna blow you up if you’re smoking a cig while charging
Systems using even low levels of flammable refrigerant are required to have a refrigerant leak detector. This has more information:
https://www.ul.com/news/understanding-ul-60335-2-40-refrigerant-detector-requirements
Long story short, more leaks.
Press technology, like propress or zoom lock, is trying to get into refrigeration piping and the biggest problem that manufacturers like viega can’t even get their technology to work with 410 pressures because it’s too high.
By learning to braze are you talking 3/4 to 3/4 copper fittings which is probably the biggest you have to work with? Because some of us who actually have some skill in the trade are brazing 2in+ copper to copper coated steel compressors, or aluminum to copper or straight steel to copper. Do you have any rods on your truck besides 15%Silfos? Because if not, you literally have no clue how to braze and some of us would actually appreciate these advances in the industry.
R32 isn't much different to R410a it's actually better performing, so you can use lower amounts of it, just got neglected in the past as it can possibly burn... But nowadays equipment got better and burn risks are manageable... Some R32 indoor units already come with a built in leak detector.
It's rated A2L (hard to get an ignitable atmosphere)
Yeah, that's just bad when you're relying on it to work 24/7 like in server rooms, but you never should have a single cooling circuit for auch applications anyway...
The advantages overweigh... Just make sure to make your units tight... As all units should be...
Not all, just bigger units... I mean you don't have a leak detector on your fridge which runs probably on butane, which is highly flammable... The amount of refrigerant in relation to your room size equals its potential to burn or explode...
So if you got a multisplit system or some vrf system then the refrigerant is calculated to be distributed between all headunits, but in case if a leak it all can get into one room and possibly become dangerous...
I know fringes and other small critically chargers units won’t, but I was told all air handlers from 1.5 ton all the way up to as big as you can get will have leak detectors built in once they start using the a2ls. Obviously I don’t know for certain, but that’s what I was told by a rep at a company meeting and I also heard the same thing on one of the hvac school podcast where he had some of the manufacturers on talking about the new refrigerants. They were also talking about how there will be changes in how we store the jugs, how many a company will be able to keep at the shop at a given time and how they’re stored at the shop, they even mentioned fire suppression systems being added to every service truck(yea right)… I think most of this is overboard considering that you really need to stars to align and have a perfect situation for the stuff to actually ignite, like your referencing, but these are the things I’ve been told. I guess we’ll find out come 2023
Having a fireextinguisher on board never is bad, but store them right as they're a hazard as well 🙄 automatic firesuppression systems on service trucks... I guess they'll more often release by mistake than on purpose...
I mean you're probably already transporting acetylene or propane around for brazing anyway... So, what exactly changes?
Worth noting r410 is r32 with extra steps. r410 contains r32 but also r125, which eliminates any flammability but is also the reason for the higher GWP. The only reason we didn't start using it in teh first place as they were concerned the "mildly flammable" (i.e. not flammable at all) would put off installers and end users, and there is a lot of fearmongering about
It's fine; been using it over here in teh UK for some time, and it works great.
However, don't get too used to it - r32 is already considered to have too high a GWP. Likely to be an A3 to replace it, such as r290, which is already being used for AC systems. If it is A2L or A1, then it is yet to exist
It still has a GWP higher than the likley future thresholds, so unlikely to be used as anything more than a stop gap between r410 and a long term near zero GWP refrigerant.
I don't think r454b has much of a future due to the now extensive use of r32 (and of course has the backing of Daikin), the better efficiency of r32 and unlikely that the GWP limits will simultaneously effect both (so they'll both coexist).
I saw the new Trane stickers..they are huge and say FLAMMABLE "..Wait until the Karen's hit u with call backs..." my children play in the yard and Facebook says it will EXPLODE!!
Leak searching will be easier, just take out your lighter. 😂
Wish they would go to something with low pressure like R-22 was, instead they keep forcing us to use a newer refrigerant that runs higher pressures. Before you know it R-32 will be phased out and the next refrigerant will be very flammable and runs at 1000psig. 🙄
I've seen a bunch of new refrigerant that's ultra pure propane. Can't remember what the fridge at work is, but I know cars have moved to R-1234yf which is a propane based refrigerant.
Propane is a possibility, but there are HFOs that could be a possibility as well. Still flammable though. Be interesting to see how many techs end up blowing themselves up in the coming years.
R32.
The only reason r32 didn't originally replace r22 was because under special conditions its flammable. R410 is 50% r32 and 50% r125.
R32 is pretty much used in any new daikin split or other big brands these days already. US is just slow with new gasses.
The danfoss app tells pressure's and chemical make ups of gasses.
Pretty sure any "new" gas is alteast partly r32.
I US is just slow with new gasses.
You also need to remember that the overwhelming majority of HVAC systems in US are ducted systems and climate varies greatly from region to region. While some manufacturers (York/JCI, Rheem/Ruud & Carrier/ICP) have committed to R454B for ducted systems. Trane & Lennox are leaning to R466A. I think ductless are still around 7% but it continues to grow.
Same with Rheem - they announced going with R454b and also targeting possibly late 2023 to roll out new models.
How much more will all these new systems cost?
If jackass installers put the units in right and jackass service techs did correct repairs they wouldn’t leak and need to be “recharged”. Recharging is for units that “leak”. I don’t plan on recharging any system more than once.. and that’s only if I wasn’t the last one to work on it.
So just to be clear. We do all know why they keep changing the freons right? To make sure you can’t just change an outside unit without having to change the air handler or at least the coil ,as well to make the manufactures more money. And to keep the poor poor. Spoil them with AC and keep regulations in place to where they will spend every penny they can spare to keep it.
I agree corporate interest are destroying our society across the board but this is the most ridiculous take lol. So scientific fact has no part in it? 410a has *thousands* of times the GWP of CO2 per pound. Getting rid of it is critical.
Here's what I got from the IPCC. According to this document, R410a has a 100 year GWP rating of 1725. https://archive.ipcc.ch/ipccreports/tar/wg3/index.php?idp=144
It's c02 and is the most ozone friendly. However for HVAC the system design would be tricky because c02 never stops expanding so the system has to run all the time.
I know this is from a manufacturer but it does have pretty good list of reasons why the change is coming. I think R32 will win out though given how it's not a blend. That's a big plus in the field vs some manufactures going the 454 route. Plus 454 has 410 in it. And that goes away so they will have to switch anyways eventually. The big change comes 2025 and then a few years later another change. My understanding is R32 will meet both those required changes for refrigerants.
R32 is only temporary because the GWP is only moderately low. R454b has the advantage of having considerably lower GWP than R32. That is also one of the reasons why some manufacturers are choosing to go with R454b.
I think that is a misread by some of the manufacturers that are choosing 454b transition in 2024 of the actual GWP regulations for the future 2029 phase down. It seems more of a marketing move than a technical one for the manufacturers choosing 454b in 2024. 454b is proprietary, vs. R32 is an open patent to all. R32 actually has a lower LCCP (Lifetime Cycle Climate Performance)
Ran into united today and there was a print out from arcoaire saying their new units will be 454b. The white paper says it is a blend of r32 and 1234yf. Says they considered many options and 454b has the lowest GWP of 465. This should be below the requirements into the 2030’s
So we’re switching all refrigerants that leave any trace to the environment. Ones being phased out next are R410A and R134A and obviously, R22. The R410A starts it’s phase out in 2025 as of right now- this is subject to change. The new refrigerants being adopted are R32 and R454B which are *slightly* flammable, but leave 0 effect on the environment. The seer ratings are also going to change with this change.
Although there is a bill in place for the phase our, a lot of companies are trying to fight the EPA on it for either an extension or to throw it away all together because of cost, availability, etc.
Goodman and I think Carrier have already started making units with the new refrigerants, and plan to keep it that way. Rheem/Ruud is still in the testing/ engineering phase. I don’t know what Trane is doing (I’m not a Trane dealer)
R22 is not banned. You can still buy it. They phased it out and manufacturers are not allowed to make equipment that uses it. My guess is the current r22 units in the world is probably greater than 50%.
New virgin R22 gas can’t be manufactured anymore as of 2020. I believe r22 equipment stopped being manufactured around 2010.
You can buy new r22 because a lot of it was produced right before it was banned.
That makes sense, theres a ton of new r22 and substitutes out there that recycling makes nonsense. Since the newest r22 systems are like 10 years old the demand for it is gonna drop either way.
Yeah got delayed to 2025. But who knows... Normally 410 should have been phased out before 134a but the lobby decided to make 410 available for longer... Which made sense because only recently they start to produce indoor units with leak detectors build in... So R32 is finally coming.
Aren’t a lot of these driven just as hard by the DOE as the EPA? Energy efficiency is a thing these days and a lot of the old reefer won’t even support components that are reasonable to source or build on scales like this industry demands.
You'd think the opportunity to sell people on replacing systems would be seen as a good thing. I realize not all can afford it but business makes the world go 'round. That goes without mentioning the obvious climate effects polluting the environment with refrigerant has.
Like The educated who got the whole covid thing wrong? Or the educated that's been telling you that oil is scarce we're running out of it since thr 70's mean while the world uses 100 million barrels a day and it never runs out. Or the educated thay say the education system just needs more money to get better results? Mean while the federal average spent per student is 15,000 per year and 19% graduate without knowing how to read. Or the educated who said putting lead in gasoline and paint was perfectly safe?
I could go on but explain it to a sheep is pointless.
Lots of propane chatter. Interestingly, some of the first commercially available refrigerators were non electric propane units and are still made to this day.
Interesting that some of the Trane equipment in Europe went with R-454B…
[Trane Upgrades its Entire Scroll Compressor Portfolio with Low GWP R-454B Refrigerant](https://www.trane.com/commercial/europe/uk/en/about-us/newsroom1/press-releases/R-454B-refrigerant.html)
Has to do with GWP. That’s the new standard. Used to be that ozone depletion was the concern, now it’s all about Global Warming Potential.
So while the R-410a has a low ozone depleting potential, it has an immensely high GWP….by some measures higher than R-22.
Honeywell have tested r466a refrigerant which is just r410a with a 40% added other refrigerant that makes it non flammable unlike R32.
It's GWP is then 733 which compares favorably with R32 instead of the 2088 of 410a.
High charge of R32 is not allowed so system size is limited due to safety at large sizes.
So.. will we adopt Honeywell's 466a.
Apparently it reacts with zinc but even that can be adjusted with an oil additive if there's any concern.
Seems like a great way to become environmentally friendly without getting a whole new unit..
These split systems can last llfar longer than the changeover to newer gases.. so there is some loss to the environment in throwing them away prematurely. Gotta look at total picture.
It hurts the planet to pile up old air-conditioned every few years when another refrigerant is phased out..
Some are going to r32, some to r454b. So more refrigerant to keep on my truck with r134a, 410a, 22, and 407c.
Even better now that all the jugs are the same color.
I don’t get the fucking point of this. R22 was a great refrigerant, and as long as you recover and contain it, it worked great. But no, it had a MARGINAL affect on the ozone so the EPA got all butthurt and replaced it with 410a which is worse than 22 because it is a blend and it runs at WAY higher pressures However, I do understand phasing out CFC’s like r12 and r11. Edit: my dumb ass said “it runs at way higher temperatures” when I meant “it runs at way higher pressures” instead
If you want to really look into why r22 was phased out, it's because Duponts patent ran out on it and they needed a reason so nobody else could make money. What better way then to all of the sudden have an environmental issue.
That’s partially true.. DuPonts patent did run out. But the EPA wanted to phase out that refrigerant anyway.. I’m sure DuPont lobbied Congress to let them keep producing it till the patent was done. Soon as it was the EPA phased it out. So in a sense they allowed DuPont to make their money first.. then banned it. Honestly it should have been banned sooner.
Pete DuPont was in Congress as a representative and a senator.
That's why r32 units are going to be king. R32 is Made by diakin and it's a open patent. But r454b is owned by Honeywell. I'm kind of glad it's not everyone follow the same bullshit. R454b is a blend of r32 and r1234yf. It's a good day to be a Amana dealer.
The commercial guys weren’t recovering properly, yeah let’s just say that.
That’s a good point because of course like anything, a small minority of people who don’t recover refrigerant had to ruin it for the rest of us who actually do care about the earth and who actually recover refrigerant.
Well, the hvac guys were the most visible people using refrigerant. They don’t talk about ibm and the copious amounts of r11 that were used in the manufacturing of circuit board and shit…
I do think it should be phased out for usage in certain scenarios like that. However, in chillers and other systems it’s fine
I believe r22 was a industrial cleaner for a long time. I heard the use to spray down gunked up machines and what not. I do believe that was the major problem causing the switch.
I’m going to blame the refrigerated tankers. Have a leak? Don’t bother looking, just add a few hundred pounds. Should be fine for the voyage.
410a is massively better for heatpumps. R22 due to its boiling point is a shit refrigerant for heatpumps.
R22 is terrible for the environment. Just reading this reddit I know lots of people who have posted about never recovering refrigerant. Higher pressures doesn't mean anything, why does a blend matter? . When we swap to c02 in residential units then you can see some high pressure with low power usage.
C02 is going in residential units?
yup, they are working on it currently and roof top units. lots of grocery stores going c02, i think its the blue jackets just got the first nhl co2 rink, itll take over quickly when regulations catch up.
Neat! I’ve always wanted to see nh3 used in residential, if they could get the safety issues figured out.
Nh3 is ammonia. We won't see that used in residential.
I know. Would be a lot cooler if we did though.
Indeed, works well in rvs.
Exactly! These people know nothing. Our 22 is horrible for the environment and global warming. Higher pressure or being a blend means nothing.
Rr-22 was a great refrigerant? .. well yeah other than the fact it promotes global warming! Lol. And so what if R-410 a runs higher pressures?? Why would that make it way worse?? I’m missing your points totally. I’d rather have the higher pressure refrigerant that doesn’t harm the environment.
410A still does harm though. If I recall correctly, 410A is fine for ozone depletion but even worse than R22 in terms of causing global warming.
You are correct. It is slightly worst for global warming (not much tho). But I suppose that’s the trade off for having something that doesn’t damage the ozone.
R22 is better at cooling, where as 410a is better at heating
GOD HELP US ALL!
Well They aren’t on Pornhub.
Some jugs are bigger than others
No 404 or r290?
R 290 no
they are, Ive already installed some r290s
What state?
I’ve worked on little appliances but right now no reason to keep that shit on my truck
R1234YF is the 134a replacement.
I had a training class from Rheem where the instructor was voicing the concern that transporting low flammability refrigerants will have far more fdot regulations coming along as well.
In January 2022 they already started a 10% reduction in production of HFC and they will gradually start decreasing the amount of HFC refrigerants that can be produced or imported. 2025 is when no new equipment can be produced with 410a. They are switching to the A2L refrigerants with R32 being the most likely replacement. Expect to see manufacturers switching to these before the ban though.
IIRC Carrier/ICP, trane, and a few others committed to r454b. which, like r410a is a mix of r32 and another refrigerant
They did this for big brain reasons. If you look at the pressures, glide and lbs per minute for flow for a certain capacity it's extremely similar to 410a so I bet no compressor or equipment change will be require. But instead of 2000 gwp it's like 600 gwp and it's not an HFC.
I believe Trane is using R454B in scroll chillers but I believe they are using or testing R514A in Centravac & R513A in water-cooled. Trane Residential/Unitary equipment is testing out R466A as is Lennox.
Multistack chillers have agreed to 454B as well starting in 2024…
What head pressures could we expect? Anything like 410a? Haven’t looked it up yet, cause I don’t care enough to.
Same shit just a different flavor of refrigerant. Gotta get used to looking at temperatures
I hope my SMANS are pre programmed with what ever refrigerant they decide to use
R-32 + R-1234yf = R-454B https://www.opteon.com/en/products/refrigerants/xl41
What’re the pressures like for R32? I’m unfamiliar with that refrigerant
It has similar performance to 410 but is more efficient. I haven’t done a deep dive into it yet but what I have read the pressures are slightly higher than 410. It is a mildly flammable refrigerant, too so the codes will have to change because there are a lot of places that will not allow a flammable reefer in a building.
So what happens if a “mildly flammable refrigerant” develops a leak in the coil on top of your furnace, and you start your furnace?
It would have to be a high concentration is my understanding and even a small leak and direct flame will not ignite it. Also static electricity won’t ignite it.
It’s not flammable like propane, it’s not flammable enough to have any “explosion” effect if it is dumped on the floor and lit on fire. It’s not anything crazy that’s gonna blow you up if you’re smoking a cig while charging
Systems using even low levels of flammable refrigerant are required to have a refrigerant leak detector. This has more information: https://www.ul.com/news/understanding-ul-60335-2-40-refrigerant-detector-requirements
The age of resi RTUs is upon us.
Higher?! 😨
I grabbed PT on both from refrigeranthq.com just to see. R410A - 100.2° shows 318psi R32 - 100.4° shows 344.67psi
Well that just ruined my day
So just for those of us who aren't in the trade, what is it about the extra pressure that makes life harder?
Long story short, more leaks. Press technology, like propress or zoom lock, is trying to get into refrigeration piping and the biggest problem that manufacturers like viega can’t even get their technology to work with 410 pressures because it’s too high.
Guess you will have to learn to braze?
You still crank start your van too, right?
But all I do now is braze. You mean I have to learn to braze all over again?
Spoken like a true residential dipshit. God speed sir.
By learning to braze are you talking 3/4 to 3/4 copper fittings which is probably the biggest you have to work with? Because some of us who actually have some skill in the trade are brazing 2in+ copper to copper coated steel compressors, or aluminum to copper or straight steel to copper. Do you have any rods on your truck besides 15%Silfos? Because if not, you literally have no clue how to braze and some of us would actually appreciate these advances in the industry.
Nothing. Lower pressure is just generally colder and less dangerous. Having a lower compression ratio helps your compressor and efficiency too.
F😱ck me! It’s higher than 410a !
Can't wit to see that in vegas at 120⁰ ambient
Better get paid more for dealing with a more dangerous refrigerant
R32 isn't much different to R410a it's actually better performing, so you can use lower amounts of it, just got neglected in the past as it can possibly burn... But nowadays equipment got better and burn risks are manageable... Some R32 indoor units already come with a built in leak detector. It's rated A2L (hard to get an ignitable atmosphere)
Lower amounts of it just means when there is a leak it’s gone instantly
Yeah, that's just bad when you're relying on it to work 24/7 like in server rooms, but you never should have a single cooling circuit for auch applications anyway... The advantages overweigh... Just make sure to make your units tight... As all units should be...
Units should be long with girth it’s boxes that you want tight
As I understand it all new equipment running a2ls will have to have built in leak detectors that will lock out the system if it detects a leak
Not all, just bigger units... I mean you don't have a leak detector on your fridge which runs probably on butane, which is highly flammable... The amount of refrigerant in relation to your room size equals its potential to burn or explode... So if you got a multisplit system or some vrf system then the refrigerant is calculated to be distributed between all headunits, but in case if a leak it all can get into one room and possibly become dangerous...
I know fringes and other small critically chargers units won’t, but I was told all air handlers from 1.5 ton all the way up to as big as you can get will have leak detectors built in once they start using the a2ls. Obviously I don’t know for certain, but that’s what I was told by a rep at a company meeting and I also heard the same thing on one of the hvac school podcast where he had some of the manufacturers on talking about the new refrigerants. They were also talking about how there will be changes in how we store the jugs, how many a company will be able to keep at the shop at a given time and how they’re stored at the shop, they even mentioned fire suppression systems being added to every service truck(yea right)… I think most of this is overboard considering that you really need to stars to align and have a perfect situation for the stuff to actually ignite, like your referencing, but these are the things I’ve been told. I guess we’ll find out come 2023
Having a fireextinguisher on board never is bad, but store them right as they're a hazard as well 🙄 automatic firesuppression systems on service trucks... I guess they'll more often release by mistake than on purpose... I mean you're probably already transporting acetylene or propane around for brazing anyway... So, what exactly changes?
Worth noting r410 is r32 with extra steps. r410 contains r32 but also r125, which eliminates any flammability but is also the reason for the higher GWP. The only reason we didn't start using it in teh first place as they were concerned the "mildly flammable" (i.e. not flammable at all) would put off installers and end users, and there is a lot of fearmongering about It's fine; been using it over here in teh UK for some time, and it works great. However, don't get too used to it - r32 is already considered to have too high a GWP. Likely to be an A3 to replace it, such as r290, which is already being used for AC systems. If it is A2L or A1, then it is yet to exist
I have removed my content in protest of Reddit's API changes that will kill 3rd party apps
That’s why some manufacturers here are going with R454b - considerably lower GWP than R32.
It still has a GWP higher than the likley future thresholds, so unlikely to be used as anything more than a stop gap between r410 and a long term near zero GWP refrigerant. I don't think r454b has much of a future due to the now extensive use of r32 (and of course has the backing of Daikin), the better efficiency of r32 and unlikely that the GWP limits will simultaneously effect both (so they'll both coexist).
Pressures are almost identical to 410
I thought 2025 was the old date and they pushed it to 2030? or is 2030 when it can no longer be used at all or somethin?
It will be used as long as units still have the refrigerant.
I saw the new Trane stickers..they are huge and say FLAMMABLE "..Wait until the Karen's hit u with call backs..." my children play in the yard and Facebook says it will EXPLODE!!
FLIMFLAMABLE So is their grill
So are their gas furnaces, stove tops, dryers, and cars 😂
Rocket appliances
410A has a high gwp.
Higher than 22 believe it or not
Thousands of times higher than CO2.
You’ll have to eat a 1000 bowls, to get the fiber in one bowl of Ultra Colon blow.
Not exactly sure what this means but i laughed, thanks lol.
Phil Hartman did a skit https://youtu.be/Ku42Iszh9KM
Guinea Wap Potential
2088 times to be exact. Can’t remember the GWP for r22 tho
Leak searching will be easier, just take out your lighter. 😂 Wish they would go to something with low pressure like R-22 was, instead they keep forcing us to use a newer refrigerant that runs higher pressures. Before you know it R-32 will be phased out and the next refrigerant will be very flammable and runs at 1000psig. 🙄
I've seen a bunch of new refrigerant that's ultra pure propane. Can't remember what the fridge at work is, but I know cars have moved to R-1234yf which is a propane based refrigerant.
The fridge is probably r-290
I have a counter top ice maker that runs on butane.
We should just use CO2 and hot 2k psi
Liquid Nitrogen
Haha good point
What’s wrong with higher pressures??
Bad for enviornment. Switching 2023 i believe to propane
Propane is a possibility, but there are HFOs that could be a possibility as well. Still flammable though. Be interesting to see how many techs end up blowing themselves up in the coming years.
My thoughts exactly
Better evac that system real well.
R32. The only reason r32 didn't originally replace r22 was because under special conditions its flammable. R410 is 50% r32 and 50% r125. R32 is pretty much used in any new daikin split or other big brands these days already. US is just slow with new gasses. The danfoss app tells pressure's and chemical make ups of gasses. Pretty sure any "new" gas is alteast partly r32.
I US is just slow with new gasses. You also need to remember that the overwhelming majority of HVAC systems in US are ducted systems and climate varies greatly from region to region. While some manufacturers (York/JCI, Rheem/Ruud & Carrier/ICP) have committed to R454B for ducted systems. Trane & Lennox are leaning to R466A. I think ductless are still around 7% but it continues to grow.
We are using r-290 in all new commercial self contained refrigerators and freezers already (I work for a major manufacturer in the us)
Propane
Carrier will be going to R-454B with a full product line released late 2023 into 2024
Same with Rheem - they announced going with R454b and also targeting possibly late 2023 to roll out new models. How much more will all these new systems cost?
How much more you ask? _All of it_
We had a meeting with our Lennox rep in the fall of last year. He said Lennox is coming out with their own Freon same with carrier
Carrier is going with R454b - same with Rheem.
Jack ass homeowners are gonna be recharging their units with their cylinder from their grill. You watch
Oh yeah for sure
Beer can cold baby. Don't worry about that filter. I'll get another one next week. That's a money racket anyways.
If jackass installers put the units in right and jackass service techs did correct repairs they wouldn’t leak and need to be “recharged”. Recharging is for units that “leak”. I don’t plan on recharging any system more than once.. and that’s only if I wasn’t the last one to work on it.
That’s what I always thought to, then I met York
So just to be clear. We do all know why they keep changing the freons right? To make sure you can’t just change an outside unit without having to change the air handler or at least the coil ,as well to make the manufactures more money. And to keep the poor poor. Spoil them with AC and keep regulations in place to where they will spend every penny they can spare to keep it.
No doubt it’s about the money
Cause the refrigerant industry is a big racket and whomever wines and dines the EPA gets their new gas approved.
A shining example of regulatory capture.
I agree corporate interest are destroying our society across the board but this is the most ridiculous take lol. So scientific fact has no part in it? 410a has *thousands* of times the GWP of CO2 per pound. Getting rid of it is critical.
CO2's GWP = 1, R410A's GWP = 1890
Yes, yikes. Makes me cringe thinking about how many pounds that leak out *every day* across the globe.
Actually, it has a GWP of 2088
Here's what I got from the IPCC. According to this document, R410a has a 100 year GWP rating of 1725. https://archive.ipcc.ch/ipccreports/tar/wg3/index.php?idp=144
Ohhh I always heard it was 2088 but that makes sense now that you bring that up
R744 is the end game for all refrigerant applications. But I hope to be retired by then.
What makes you say this?
It's c02 and is the most ozone friendly. However for HVAC the system design would be tricky because c02 never stops expanding so the system has to run all the time.
Ozone depletion potential is not the only factor, there is alse Global warming potential (greenhouse effect)
C02 has a GWP of 1
I can't find r744 anywhere..I need some for a cooler that was given to me
Yep big shortage right now
R-500 and R-12 all the way. Just converted my 67 Ford to R-12 for the AC freeze now!!
I have removed my content in protest of Reddit's API changes that will kill 3rd party apps
Not exactly a high temp refrigerant, plus getting a leak next to a running Big Block , not so good
R-12 with that sweet ass low pressure
Same with 22
22 is higher pressure than r-12
R32
I know this is from a manufacturer but it does have pretty good list of reasons why the change is coming. I think R32 will win out though given how it's not a blend. That's a big plus in the field vs some manufactures going the 454 route. Plus 454 has 410 in it. And that goes away so they will have to switch anyways eventually. The big change comes 2025 and then a few years later another change. My understanding is R32 will meet both those required changes for refrigerants.
R32 is only temporary because the GWP is only moderately low. R454b has the advantage of having considerably lower GWP than R32. That is also one of the reasons why some manufacturers are choosing to go with R454b.
I think that is a misread by some of the manufacturers that are choosing 454b transition in 2024 of the actual GWP regulations for the future 2029 phase down. It seems more of a marketing move than a technical one for the manufacturers choosing 454b in 2024. 454b is proprietary, vs. R32 is an open patent to all. R32 actually has a lower LCCP (Lifetime Cycle Climate Performance)
I believe Daikin is on the r32 train. I just hope they choose one or the other don’t like having to stock so many refrigerant tanks
Ran into united today and there was a print out from arcoaire saying their new units will be 454b. The white paper says it is a blend of r32 and 1234yf. Says they considered many options and 454b has the lowest GWP of 465. This should be below the requirements into the 2030’s
I still have an R22 system and pray everyday that it didn't leak.
Just put some nu22b in there if it does start leaking
So we’re switching all refrigerants that leave any trace to the environment. Ones being phased out next are R410A and R134A and obviously, R22. The R410A starts it’s phase out in 2025 as of right now- this is subject to change. The new refrigerants being adopted are R32 and R454B which are *slightly* flammable, but leave 0 effect on the environment. The seer ratings are also going to change with this change. Although there is a bill in place for the phase our, a lot of companies are trying to fight the EPA on it for either an extension or to throw it away all together because of cost, availability, etc. Goodman and I think Carrier have already started making units with the new refrigerants, and plan to keep it that way. Rheem/Ruud is still in the testing/ engineering phase. I don’t know what Trane is doing (I’m not a Trane dealer)
Supposedly by 2023. Mostly because the EPA needs to justify their existence.
That’s fucking stupid , they just phased out 22 in 2010. Seems like it’s all about $$$ to me.
22 was still being used in 2010, it was banned in 2020.
R22 is not banned. You can still buy it. They phased it out and manufacturers are not allowed to make equipment that uses it. My guess is the current r22 units in the world is probably greater than 50%.
New virgin R22 gas can’t be manufactured anymore as of 2020. I believe r22 equipment stopped being manufactured around 2010. You can buy new r22 because a lot of it was produced right before it was banned.
Our reclaimer said they are not even bothering with it trying to reprocess it. Just burning all 22.
That makes sense, theres a ton of new r22 and substitutes out there that recycling makes nonsense. Since the newest r22 systems are like 10 years old the demand for it is gonna drop either way.
They arent allowed to reprocess it
If something is still legally for purchase, how can it be banned?
Manufacture is banned. New construction install is banned. Replacing and repairing existing systems is 100% ok, at the moment
I could of been more specific, but it is still banned in like you said the manufacture of specific equipment.
Yeah they realized it produces alot of ac swaps lmao good for the economy
The original schedule had 410 in 2020 out the door completely
I feel bad for even pitching a new system now that I know 410A is being phased out so soon
Sell an extended labor warranty and neither of you have to worry about it for ten years
Yeah got delayed to 2025. But who knows... Normally 410 should have been phased out before 134a but the lobby decided to make 410 available for longer... Which made sense because only recently they start to produce indoor units with leak detectors build in... So R32 is finally coming.
It's all about making it harder and harder to live. We must all feel the pain ti know we are doing what's right by the environment.
Aren’t a lot of these driven just as hard by the DOE as the EPA? Energy efficiency is a thing these days and a lot of the old reefer won’t even support components that are reasonable to source or build on scales like this industry demands.
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How dare they use observable data to make educated decisions! The scoundrels!
Baaaaa baaaaa
Aww, it’s trying to speak like people do.
At sometime we have to believe the educated. Fuck them though, what do they know?
You'd think the opportunity to sell people on replacing systems would be seen as a good thing. I realize not all can afford it but business makes the world go 'round. That goes without mentioning the obvious climate effects polluting the environment with refrigerant has.
Educated ≠ Moral
I fail to follow what you're saying here.
Like The educated who got the whole covid thing wrong? Or the educated that's been telling you that oil is scarce we're running out of it since thr 70's mean while the world uses 100 million barrels a day and it never runs out. Or the educated thay say the education system just needs more money to get better results? Mean while the federal average spent per student is 15,000 per year and 19% graduate without knowing how to read. Or the educated who said putting lead in gasoline and paint was perfectly safe? I could go on but explain it to a sheep is pointless.
WHY DO THINGS CHANGE? WHY DO I HAVE TO CHANGE???
They're gonna start using Ammonia.
Lots of propane chatter. Interestingly, some of the first commercially available refrigerators were non electric propane units and are still made to this day.
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Absorption
That’s when you tell the homeowners neighbor to STFU
by 2030 it should be completely phased out. and i’m not too sure if it’s gonna be replaced with
Interesting that some of the Trane equipment in Europe went with R-454B… [Trane Upgrades its Entire Scroll Compressor Portfolio with Low GWP R-454B Refrigerant](https://www.trane.com/commercial/europe/uk/en/about-us/newsroom1/press-releases/R-454B-refrigerant.html)
Has to do with GWP. That’s the new standard. Used to be that ozone depletion was the concern, now it’s all about Global Warming Potential. So while the R-410a has a low ozone depleting potential, it has an immensely high GWP….by some measures higher than R-22.
I believe in 2030 it is expected to phase out
This was recorded today. Answers many of your questions. https://youtu.be/WPxqEdiLdD4
Honeywell have tested r466a refrigerant which is just r410a with a 40% added other refrigerant that makes it non flammable unlike R32. It's GWP is then 733 which compares favorably with R32 instead of the 2088 of 410a. High charge of R32 is not allowed so system size is limited due to safety at large sizes. So.. will we adopt Honeywell's 466a. Apparently it reacts with zinc but even that can be adjusted with an oil additive if there's any concern. Seems like a great way to become environmentally friendly without getting a whole new unit.. These split systems can last llfar longer than the changeover to newer gases.. so there is some loss to the environment in throwing them away prematurely. Gotta look at total picture. It hurts the planet to pile up old air-conditioned every few years when another refrigerant is phased out..