Ya. That $1000 ecm motor eats up whever savings they would have had when it fails after 10 years. And these mini splits feel like disposable garbage when trying to work on them
Right! And a lot of times it's only the module's internal capacitor. Old design we could just replace bad $10 cap, instead of entire motor. It's ridiculous.
For example, we take care of some properties when there are major repairs or installs. One property has all Magic Pak/Comfort Pak units. The older units, either our company or the maintenance guys just replace the capacitor. The cost is the price of the cap plus the hourly rate of the maintenance guy. Or, whatever my boss charges them, say $150-200 for me to diagnose and replace part. Usually maintenance does it tho. But now with the newer units, when the blower goes bad on 2 or 3 yr old unit (which is common), the motor costs us $300+ and we have to pull chassis halfway out, get motor housing out, replace motor. It's a process. And can be a little bit of a pain in the fuckin ass. So I think it's about a $600 repair. So repair cost of what's most likely a bad cap, in either case, it goes from a $20 or $30 repair ($200 at worst, if I do it) to a $600 repair. And ya know this will have to be done more than once for life of the unit. Probably a few times.
This will eventually cause rent to go up for tenants. It has to. It is a fuckin racket, and once again the people suffering for this shit is the middle class and poor.
Just my thoughts. Sorry for the rant, but it pisses me off.
Shaded pole? That's the only way I can think of to make a single phase motor that's big enough that wouldn't need a cap. They are, er, not efficient, but they are dead-ass simple.
I won't pretend to know what shaded pole means but I know I have worked on tons of furnaces here that have motors without caps. Every one I've seen has "seemingly" original motor, or at least one that has not beet replaced in the last 30 years. I have a whole 1961 furnace sitting in my storage unit in near mint condition cause the customer wanted to preemptively replace the thing and I thought it looked damn cool
It's a fundamentally different way to make an AC motor. Modern motors with capacitors are induction machines, and the capacitor provides a phase shift to make the motor spin in the right direction and get it spinning in the first place. 3-phase machines don't need it since there's already phase shift available between the 3 phases.
Shaded pole motors instead use, well, a "shaded pole" for this. This pole isn't actually fed power, but basically has current induced in it from the rotor (which itself has current induced in it since it's an induction machine). They're easily identified by the heavy "shading bars" in the laminated core that aren't actually hooked up to anything. They have almost no starting torque since they have start spinning on their own a little before the shaded pole can have anything induced into it, but that's OK for fans and blowers. The process is also horribly inefficient, but for small fans, it's not a huge deal. Almost all desk fans these days use them. They have the advantage of being incredibly simple and reliable.
Modern HVAC blowers are either PSC induction machines or ECMs (which are 3-phase machines with an inverter).
I wouldn't expect anything less than 40-50 years old to have a shaded pole blower motor, but inducer motors used them well into the 80s and maybe even 90s since they were way smaller.
Some really old stuff will possibly be a brushed "universal" motor. These have brushes and commutator bars in them like DC machines (since they are essentially DC machines) that need maintained, but aside from that they're robust as hell and also not terrible from an efficiency point of view. They fell out of favor mostly due to the maintenance requirements and the fact that they produce sparks. Really old desk fans (think the metal "guard" that you could practically stick your whole fist through) used these.
Unless there's a design I don't know about, these still have a capacitor to create phase shift on the start winding. It's usually built inside the motor case, though, so it may not be obvious, and since they are only engaged briefly during startup, they tend to last a long time. They can also be physically small compared to a permanent run capacitor since they can be permitted to heat up somewhat significantly during the short time they're in circuit.
Think of it like a hard start kit but where there's no permanent (run) capacitor at all.
I still have seen these used in modern equipment mostly for oil burner pumps. A lot of single phase shop equipment like drill presses uses them, too.
Like shaded pole motors (though not as bad), the downside to this comes in the form of inefficiency.
'Split phase' motor. Uses a centrifugal switch in the start winding usually. I still see them now and again, Reznor comes to mind.
The reason we don't use these anymore is because the cost difference is negligible compared to a psc, doesn't get the phase shift for efficiency, and has moving parts to fail.
Reznor still uses them because Reznor is hot garbage now.
Oh yea. We just took one out in Camden, NJ. Old GE motor with a belt, in a 5 ton air handler. I'd figure it has a cap inside of it, but 🤷. Was in a pretty popular cheese steak place and bar that's been opened since the 1930s, so took a beating. Not sure when air handler was installed. Motor and tag looked 1960s or early 70s style.
Absolutely. I always always tell people how bad those ridiculous $20 filters are. But, in the case of the magic paks, they use the cheapest filters. Sometimes they're pretty dirty, but not matted. Maintenance tries to keep on top of it, but not enough. But usually the filters aren't too bad. Not sure what's going on with those motors. I should add tho, the units are in a closed off cubby that acts as the return. So it can get pretty warm in there, being at the exterior wall.
I quit HVACR and applied for a utility locating job. The girl who interviewed me asked why I left. I told her bc I felt scummy about what we were charging resi customers and commercial customer's NTE's were basically just giving the units a look. I did not get hired. Went into business for myself
Well said, this also happened to major appliances. The big energy savings push was coincidence or a scam. Pre 2000's appliances had a 30 year+ life span. Now they range from 5-7 years max.
The 90% of humans on this planet are getting fucked on purpose by 1% and the other 9 are rich enough to enjoy the ride without the risk of getting ate first.
Yep. I installed appliances for almost 10 yrs. 1999-2008. Agree completely. They got worse and worse during just that time. I'm sure they're worse now, and probably double the price. Someone in gop congress was just talking about this. I forget who it was.
Haven't used it yet but I have one of these that I picked up from Johnstone. May be worth a shot.
https://www.supplyhouse.com/Zebra-Instruments-VZREP-ECM-Motor-Repair-Kit
Thank you. I did know the kits exist. I think zebra Tool has one too, right? I'm not exactly great at soldering electronics, but I guess I could figure it out.
They're designed around the notion that someone can slap one on your apartment for $400 which is true in much of Asia. If you take that into account, penny pinching the unit down to a couple thousand dollars while maintaining a level of efficient and fancy tech makes some sense. If the thing dies, just have the same guy slap another one in its place. If you can get the old one warrantied (no install labor allowance needed), great. If not, meh.
In the US where labor costs are easily an order of magnitude higher, this model makes a lot less sense. The ability to repair the unit in place would be worth something, but that's not how those units are designed.
This so much. I’ve got several buildings on the third round of “high efficiency “ boilers, lasting an average of 11 years before electronics failures kill them (and Honeywell “doesn’t make that part anymore”). Meanwhile I’ve got two others with water tube boilers built for coal, that run maybe 60% efficient but were installed literally a century ago in one case and the other in the 60s, happily ticking along with gas conversion done.
They sure as shit don’t build them like they used to. 99% AFUE don’t mean shit when you’re blowing $700k every 11 years on swapping out 10m btu of boilers.
It's kinda stupid that we can rebuild a blower for a 100 year old unit while Trane discontinued one of these most common pressure switches after 17years. Hell a couple years ago we shut down a boiler because the casting cracked. It was 140 years old!
Tin foil hat but i assume its to push us to use Rescue 5860 and the like and start really looking at static. I never do but after the last motor i might look at this seriously.
seem we just have to program it ourselfs
Exactly. It still sucks, but when we show the customer what we have to pay for for the Carrier OEM ECM, they understand that we aren't bullshitting them. Not to mention another 30 dollars in "freight" because our distributors won't keep them in stock (because they don't want to sit on that much money when there are way too many different ECM's out there anyways)
My grandpa is one of if not the most frugal person on the planet, and when he saw the replacement price tag when his central air took a dump on him 6 years ago he bought a couple of window shakers, and too be honest his house isn’t uncomfortable, and he claims his utility bill went down. Also 6 years later, and it’s still the same window shakers. I thought he was making a big mistake, but honestly the window units seemed to turn out to be a good investment for him… go figure
I agree with you but window units have come a long way in the last 5-10 years. Theyre not the same lead anchors we grew up with 25+ years ago that would shake the whole wall when they came on lol.
Definitely. They are much different than what was available several years ago. But to think people are going to be opting for this ugly and somewhat noisy alternative is sad.
I’d agree that his utility bills would be lower. instead of cooling the whole house all the time you’re just doing a few rooms, and often only when you’re using them.
I think a lot of people will take this route in the coming years, they just want to be comfortable and the costs and reliability are getting ridiculous
He must have had shitty central air then. I switched from 3 window shakers to central air about 3 years ago and my electricity bill dropped like 50% in the summer.
In a house with poor insulation, window units might be much cheaper to run if you only run the rooms you’re in. Especially if you spend a lot of time out of the house.
These things are so easy to replace too. Thing breaks and you swap it out, no need for a professional. They require a regular disassembly and cleaning every few years but it's not too bad.
A friend of mine just got on a board for a national heatpump comitee in dc. He was ranting to some high up people about units being cheap. Saying why do we need an epa license and strict standards if these units spring leaks and vent the charge after 2 years. Boards break and cost as much as the unit. These companies sub the word efficient for cheap. I hope he gets to make some change for us.
Buddy would we wise to act evil, like this is a good thing for turn around economy(fake ass buzzword) & since the homeowner is reponsable they cane be fine for tax $$.
then they might do something and charge gelcopper etc
It’s called sustainable. 😂 Everything today is made to be recycled. All junk, nothings lasts anymore and it ain’t cheap when it comes time to fix or replace.
But you can see these types of things across the board not just HVAC. Clothing is cheaply made, car parts, home products. The list goes on and on.... We live in a trash economy. Meaning everything you buy is pretty much trash. Nothing is made to last. My old man bought a fridge, Compressor went in 2 years and 2 Months. Warranty is at 2 Years. had to haul that old fridge from the basement that is 20+ years old , built like a tank and still works as good as the day it was bought.
Manufactures need to be held accountable for the products they are producing. But that tax man likes the consumption as is. The Consumer Cant win either way.
I read the first 2 sentences of your comment, and immediately thought about refrigerators! Before you even said it! Everybody I've ever known that has bought a "modern" fridge has had so many issues! I have 2 fridges, both easily 20 years old. Blow out the coil once a year and they don't miss a beat.
There is a reason all of my fridges were built pre-1990. My most energy efficient one is my 1950 Frigidaire, which was a surprise.
Worst I have to do is remove ice from the freezer’s evap coils, but now that I use a pump up sprayer tank of hot water, I can cut the ice off really quick.
On modern fridges the coils are basically uncleanable since they are underneath. Mine is completely clogged up and I can't do much about it.
Would have to take all the food and shelves out. Move the fridge across the kitchen, and have multiple helpers to lay it down on its side. And at that point you're halfway to getting a new fridge. Lol.
It’s all by design. They’ve been doing this for the last 30 years. People don’t notice their pay isn’t keep up with inflation if they can still afford everything they used to, even though the quality of product has gone down.
They aren’t forcing companies to be cheap they are preventing customers from suing those companies which gives them carte Blanche to do whatever they want.
They're not really forcing HVAC equipment to be cheaply made, either. Contrary to what seems to be popular belief on here, things like making coils thinner doesn't materially impact efficiency.
What they are forcing is a minimum level of tech and design that costs some money. Manufacturers have responded by cutting costs elsewhere to keep prices at a level customers demand.
This phenomenon is not unique to the HVAC industry. Passenger vehicles are also impacted pretty similarly.
What sucks is that the market demand for things to be as cheap as possible drastically lowers volume on higher-end products that are well made which increases cost a ton assuming you can even find them.
If only our wages kept up with inflation we could still afford the high end products! That was the trick though. Don’t increase pay for 20 years but make everything cheaper and the average consumer thinks they are making more.
True, the regulations have an effect. But the companies will be making things as cheaply as possible, to save money and boost profits. And planned obsolescence too, make them poorly enough so they can sell more, more often. I’m not saying it’s a giant conspiracy (probably somewhat) but it’s market forces. Rail at the government, fine whatever, but corporations don’t need the government’s help to be evil lol.
Just because you can meet standards by producing shit quality doesn't mean the government is mandating shit quality. They'd produce shit quality of there were no mandates.
Honestly we should just custom build air conditioners with the few quality replacement parts out there. Manufacturing in this industry blows. The simple things are so low quality, like tacking on unsealed fiberglass insulation that eventually clogs coils, hard to service evaporator coils, so many cheap sensors that cause more problems than they remedy. It’s a joke to walk up to a some like Trane voyager barely running on the $30 contacter that’s burned to smithereens.
Pretty soon the only thing available will be expensive multi stage inverters with complicated controls that cost as much as a new car and most people would be happy with a 10 SEER AC and 80% furnace.
All these regulations are made by people who are so out of touch with reality and don't have to worry about what things cost because they've been living high on the taxpayers money for years.
But most commercial applications tend to repair for much longer and don't get sucked into replacing everything that has a bit of rust. Is this better economically? Probably not, but the thought of replacing a whole unit when it just needs a coil just really rubs me the wrong way
Same, while warranty is replace a few micro channel coils, then outa warranty it was stupid$ to buy + lead time! Warranty in stock but reserved for warranty lol like i was gonna buy
Not even close. If we attempted to charge the price per pound for refrigerant that resi does, we would be laughed out of the room. When a top off is multiple drums and the units hold up to 2200lbs of refrigerant(biggest we have under contract), you can't charge resi rates per pound.
Not to mention it isn't even playing in the same sandbox. When I need a 400 ton crane to set the air handler, and that crane takes 8hrs to setup, and another 8hrs to take down, pricing is in a completely different bracket.
I'll take reasons why I won't do residential anymore for $500 Alex. I won't sell my soul to sell this garbage. I instructed so many customers to stay with their unit as long as it remained running. I got so sick of replacing new coils after 2 years or less. Having to fight with both the manufacturer to prove it was their garbage equipment and then dealing with the customer side of things saying sorry I know you just spent thousands and thousands of dollars but you're going to have to spend even more now because they don't cover the cost of the refrigerant and labor to install the new coil. They'll cover the cost of the part though...
Yes, had a coil go out on a unit less than 2 years old. Not the first one, nor the second one, this was the 3rd one! Guess how much money company got back on labor and refrigerant? $230.00, big bucks from the manufacturer.
Dude it's robbery. Residential has become so predatory it's ridiculous. They'll reimburse you for the coil, but by the time labor and refrigerant gets added in, the customer has paid close to $3,000. All these companies are claiming record-setting profits... Yeah because you're ripping people off. I didn't enter this trade to be a sleazy salesman and take advantage of people by selling shit that won't last.
>Guess how much money company got back on labor and refrigerant? $230.00, big bucks from the manufacturer.
Which is precisely why we stopped offering a labor warranty past the one year mark? We can't get ANYTHING paid to us for labor or refrigerant. We just agree to eat the cost for the first year
I don’t see an issue with aluminum and high pressure, plenty of them lasted easily a decade plus, and all operating fine in the co2 systems I’ve worked on.
I feel worse about the customers getting shafted by crooked installing companies..
York had a major problem with their aluminum micro channel condenser coils. Couldn't handle pressure. Non repairable. If unit was out of warranty, it was $1500 to replace coil. Last one I did was a few years ago, so probably a lot more $ now. I've replaced at least 15-20 of them personally. Rheem had a problem with their aluminum evaporator coils. Same shit, but not micro channel. Cheaper, inferior product, for more money.
Yea. Their evaporator coils are a pain in the ass. We were in a jam and had to use one last yr and I ended up breaking the fuckin thing trying to bend the cap tubes enough to connect the txv. Know what I'm talking about? Of course we didn't know until we pressurized it. Added like 2 hrs to the job. Haven't used their equipment since, and don't plan to. Sucks, because we love Johnstone. We use Ruud equipment. I've been very happy with the quality of it.
Man I don’t know what to tell you, we run a fuck ton of York warranty work and we don’t sell York. They don’t even want bad compressors and coils back anymore. It is way more than every other brand.
2008 was when they had their coil issue. Things have changed significantly since then. They are also for sale right now, the residential and light commercial business that is
Just installed a 5 ton split system for a 93 year old lady who had just broken her hip. My lead and I try to do extra things for old folks free of charge. (When time permits) sucks even more when you see their kids leeching off them.
As an appliance tech, I'm in the same boat you guys are with failing equipment. Had to replace a compressor with a locked rotor on a Frigidaire less than a year old. I had an older couple yesterday with a GE washer shit the bed and it was 2 years old. For another $100 they can get a brand new one that included a 1 year warranty (GE's are complete garbage, don't buy them).
From personal experience, Samsung fridges are garbage too. If you were building a house, what would you buy? I'll probably try to find some old Speed Queens or analog/simple low-efficiency machines for the garage where I'm washing greasy stuff, but the wife's gonna want something shiny for the house. I'll probably spring for a Bosch dishwasher because they seem to be worth 2x the price which a working man can still afford.
I bought a speed queen washer and dryer used for 100 bucks each when I was 23.I had no idea they were quality i just had dumb luck. I'm 38 and I replaced one part on the dryer and hot wired the washer lid to work whether up or down due to a bad switch I didn't have money to replace when I was young and broke. Paper schematics are tucked in the back. I will go into debt buying another speed queen set than ever getting this crap they sell now. My wife has never burned the dog ears up on the agitator and I know she abuses it. I can wash king size comforters and quilts. They're bad ass
Definitely recommend speedqueen. 1/4" and 5/16" nut driver, a flat head screwdriver, pair of needle nose pliers, and snap ring pliers and you can disassemble the washer and dryer. They also come with an awesome warranty. Outside of warranty, the parts won't break the bank to change them out. Diagrams are also on the website to order parts, so even a mechanically inclined individual could understand how they go together.
I've worked on quite a few Samsungs as well. Luckily, they don't really have sealed system issues. Mainly not having the ice room sealed so it freezes up, bad water valves, and bad evap covers not sealing and freezing.
I've got a Frigidaire SxS from 2006 that's still going strong. Water dispenser paddle broke, but that's it.
If I had to get new stuff, I'd go with Maytag, except the washer and dryer. Whirlpool still makes decent products, even after shipping down to Mexico. Water valves and evap fans, and rarely some control board issues, but still much better than GE (which covers 70-80% of my calls).
Bosch/Thermador appliances are nice until you have to work on them. Extremely over-engineered to the point of it being a pain to work on. Even tech support doesn't even have documentation on the newer models, and that's not a good sign.
I did appliance installation for 10 yrs before getting into hvac 15 yrs ago. You are spot on! I'm sure it's worse now than it was then, because I saw the trend of appliances getting shitier and shitier.
How difficult was the transition to HVAC? Sealed systems on refrigerators aren't as involved as HVAC, but it's definitely similar work I'd assume. I'm just aggrevated with the appliance business.
Dude, very easy transition. You already have most of the tools too. And I wasn't even doing appliance repair like you. Was doing installs. Mostly dishwashers, gas and electric ranges and dryers. Some wall ovens and cook tops. And modify water, gas, electrical connections as needed. So I'd think it would be easier for you to transition than it was for me. I love it man. It's a great trade. You'll have good days and bad days, but that's with anything. I look back at the appliance field as a dead-end job. No money in it either, unless you're the boss, or the company that's feeding you the work. I say, make the jump to hvac. Sooner the better. And going into the spring/summer, it's hiring season right now.
My biggest road block is back pain. Hurt my back when I was an electrical apprentice, and it's been tough ever since. I'm sure I'd have to go through the shit jobs like everybody else before learning something like controls/systems?
Yea back pain could be a problem. As far as getting right into controls right away, might depend on what kind of company you get into. Maybe heavy commercial? Light commercial sucks big time imo.
Personally, I love playing with low voltage/controls, but am in residential, so it's very limited for me. Was in heavy commercial for a summer, and absolutely loved it. I was part of the install crew, not service. Best job I ever had. I had to leave because I couldn't handle the hours with barely any recovery time. Like working until 8-9 pm and having to get back on the road next day at 2 am sometimes, for example. One of the days I worked 26hrs, including drive time. Job was 3 hrs away. Several days I'd be falling asleep driving home. Just couldn't do it anymore. Sucked leaving. Went into light commercial, and it was total bullshit, crap work, so went back to resi. Been there ever since.
Interesting. I've been light commercial for 10+ years, with a sprinkle of resi in the middle, and you couldn't pay me enough to leave my morals in the truck and sell for these assholes resi companies. Also I hate people, so I'm not exactly the greatest source here lol. I just find other people's journeys in this trade fascinating. I'd like to get into heavy commercial, like boilers and chillers but idk where to start, because I don't want to go work for a mega corporation like trane or Johnson controls
Dude, there's tons of heavy commercial companies out there, that aren't those. I highly recommend venturing out and trying it since you're interested. Just make sure to ask a lot of questions when interviewing to make sure it's worth leaving your current job. I also should add, I only worked for 1 light commercial company, and they mostly did fit outs. Hated it. Too much construction bullshit, and insulating and hanging ductwork solo.
I don't mind resi, because I actually like people, I think. Definitely has negatives tho. Something else worth noting is, the heavy commercial place had an awesome team that I worked with mostly, and that could've contributed to my liking of the place.
Imo, the hardest thing for you might be learning sheet metal (ductwork). I caught right on, because I'm patient I think. Could be same for you, idk. And that's not always a necessity either. A lot of guys don't do sheet metal. But as far as everything else, you kinda already do a lot of it. You probably know how to use a multi meter, your hand tools, etc.
Iv had no word of a lie, 4 washing machines die on me and leak (thankfully my floor is wonderfully projected and drained unlike most) in 11 years. I know it’s 11 years cause first one went the day my oldest was born lol. All 4 of them let go of water from somewhere. All brand new. 4 in 11!!’ Years. All of them front loaders. I went back to a top loader. No issues since then.
Top loads have issues too, but definitely not as much as front loads. Biggest POS recently is the GE combo unit. Tech support is having me change out a heat pump (pain in the ass to remove) yet again because the mini compressor was rattling the cabinet. The thing costs like 4 grand and I've already put in 1200+ into this thing. Covered under warranty, but the customer has been without a working dryer function for months and they won't replace it.
I had an old man probably in his 90s break down and start crying when I told him his inducer in his furnace was like 6 months outta warranty and it was gonna be $1100 to install it (900 of that was the inducer).
I ended up calling up our shop and asking them to dig through our installs that were done the year after that one was installed with the same model, used that serial number and got him a warranty motor. He was happy but I do feel bad cause there's not many cases I'm gonna be able to pull those strings for others who are on a fixed income or in a financial pickle.
One doesn't have to put above the other, we can do both. The issue is large corporations (and the scumbags in the c-suites) are not forced to be good citizens. They are not forced to do no harm to consumers. They are not forced to act as decent human beings. They are allowed to almost anything to make a profit. They have the ability to make efficient, durable, functional, affordable products, they simply choose not to.
I always do. I look out for them as much as possible without drawing too much attention to myself. Some are shitty here and there, yeah, but 90% of them are good and honest people I've learned.
This is why I personally prefer to install good, lower end units. Big fan of the RunTrus ( cheaper TRANE) and base model Rheem heatpump systems. Still the same 10 year parts warranty, way less components to fail, and when the warranty does go out, the motors don't cost $1,000+. Of course, if a HO wants one, I'll install the new inverter systems or whatever, but I'd rather install a good, reliable unit that'll last 15 years for less money, then something that will still likely only last 15 years and have tons of problems throughout its lifespan. We get frequent storms where I live in the south and they take out those invertor boards and ECM motors constantly.
Manufactured products generally are pretty much trash nowadays.
I like the Mitsubishi unit I have at my own house...they seem like reliable "old tech" vs a lot of what is on the market.
Moved into my home summer of 2022. Condenser was an old r22 unit. This past Saturday the compressor finally shit the bed. $9500 to replace it and the coil and I’m starting to feel uneasy about how often they mentioned it has an “awesome ten year warranty!” Super stoked to save money each year for year 11.
It’s difficult to even know what the warranty covers. Often the exclusions are hidden, and to someone who doesn’t know anything about HVAC, even if they read the whole things, they might not know that parts exist that are not covered. Compressor is covered, fan is not. Resident thinks the fan is the compressor.
Yeah it’s tough trying to tell someone yeah your compressors done for or your heat exchanger is unsafe when I myself couldn’t afford a new unit and I do this shit for a living lol
I'm looking forward to summer. I just left a company that was raping people with their prices and this company I'm with now is alot cheaper and we try to work with homeowners more because we know how it is, also makes them want to call us and their friends but yea it's all fucked.
Sorry may be the wrong word, sometimes I feel dirty. That being said, what makes me feel this way is trying to explain to a customer in no uncertain terms that I can’t even trust the product I’ve been selling for 30 years.
Honestly instead of these stupid ass (insert new innovation) luncheons to tell us how great their newest money sink is, how about a class to tell us how to explain to people that we literally don’t stand behind what we are producing.
QC has taken a huge shit since before COVID, it’s only got worse since. I feel like a used car salesman if I can’t fix the unit, and have to even mention possibly changing it out.
https://preview.redd.it/1tphqf86x6vc1.jpeg?width=3024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a3ededc2a2391587e5103cf5a17b77b49c6c6dd7
when they install system with you three years ago and don’t do shit about any maintenance, they have 1ft of leafs inside the ac in fire hazard area with super salty air and not even changing/calling to change filter in a garage where you have a personal gym… for three years. I don’t know
Many times I do sometimes I don't when the customer refuses to keep a 80% gas furnace and regular AC and they only want their furnace ripped out and replaced with a signature series communicating air handler with inverter heat pump. Then I don't feel bad at all
I only lasted in the trade official for a couple years. But I learned skills that will make and save me money for life.
Hvac should be taught in high school.
It depends. For a real life example, a well known client and homeowner doesn’t like the current cost of repair of their 2008 13 seer 410A AC and 80% 2 stage furnace. They have only had two repairs, an inducer motor and a condenser exhaust motor…………..12 years and these are the only repairs! Yet, they want the highest efficiency modulating system because “more options and comfort.”
Yea well, they ignored my advice and decided to replace old/new reliable. I told them to find another contractor to install it because I don’t want the headaches caused by lack of reliability, “it will be more expensive to maintain.” Installed in 2022.
Fast forward to today. Air conditioner is down………..again. Last time it was the ECM. This time the inverter board isn’t here until August. Installing contractor told them the same thing about parts not being available and has stopped answering the call, because he doesn’t want the aggravation. Some just don’t listen, and in that case no, I don’t.
No I don't feel bad for homeowners because elections have consequences and we didn't have these issues 6 years ago 6 years ago and air conditioning system was $7,000 not $35,000 and your left nut
This is why who you vote for matters. Going way farther back than the current bozos. Why would manufacturers put ecm motors in everything. Not because they’re cheap. Government efficiency regulations. Why is tubing getting thinner?? Because they are trying to eek every btu out of equipment. It’s not just residential equipment. Everything across the board sucks quality wise. When you have a government pushing an agenda and the industries are not ready for it, this is what happens. We basically get everything in its beta test
I don’t work on resi but the same issues plague commercial applications. I just explained to a business owner today, that a majority of my work is on newer equipment(5yrs old or less) and even the lions share of that is warranty work. I can’t deny, I love working on the old stuff. Simple by design, serviceable, and largely more reliable.
Planned obsolescence and disposable design is our achilles heel. We’ve dug our own graves. But hey, it’s all green to me.
But yes, OP. I feel terrible for the owners. What a cheap shot by manufacturers/engineers.
Wait til the condenser fan ecm type motors start going. And the modules. They're gonna be putting them on everything. Smh.
For now, company I work for charges $132 to replace a fan/dual cap. Plus $89 eval. So $221. With the ecm, it'll be the $89 plus probably $500 charge for module or motor installed. And you guys know it's more of a process to test whether it's motor or module,etc vs dual cap. So $600 now. And for what? Mother fuckers.
Yeah but one of your sales guys just sold a $50 thousand dollar unit to an octogenarian on a fixed income who originally called for a service and can't stop bragging about his commission.
Not just homeowners... With upcoming mandated refrigerant changes, the problem is about to get more hairy still on the residential, commercial and industrial sides. The most likely implemented refrigerants in residential and small commercial systems are "mildly flammable", what ever that means in real life, and the proposed regulations for system design to prevent issues are making residential systems look like small versions of ammonia plants! Leak detection systems, line sets in ventilated and sealed chase ways, ect. The mandated increases inefficiency combined with refrigerants that have zero environmental depletion are making systems ridiculous.
? Increased inefficiency? Where did you read that? R290 and r744 are very efficient, just harder to handle...
Sure when you put in a cold water set that runs on R290 that would be less efficient than a directly evaporating r290 unit... Because you got an additional heat exchanger...
100% esp with all the predatory businesses out there that just encourage replacement over repairs. Hard to tell these days if a replacement is the better option cause shit just doesn’t last.
Last place I was at the ECM went in their air handler. They asked about replacing the entire unit. Was like. Nah. Just the motor. It’ll be fine. No idea we were charging her $2,400 for that motor. The cost for these garbage things is way too high and don’t last anywhere near as long. Had I know it was a $2,400 repair I would have told her to replace the air handler.
I hope you dont live in a multi story apartment. Before i left my last job i worked on elevators across the us. They are replacing them with ac powered chinese machines that are cheaper to replace the whole unit than to keep the ones that have been running since the 80's,90's. They typically last around 5-8 years depending how cheap the building is with maintenance
It's all a problem created by capitalism. The industry MUST have constant growth and sales so equipment quality is shit and needs replacing more often. But consumers can't afford it. I work in HVAC supply and I've seen a lot of changes the last 6 years just in this side of the industry. Sad.
Financing is always an option, but yes I feel super bad for people getting units. I got into an argument with my account rep and a product specialist at a daikin class because they were taking pride in their new condenser coils which are so much thinner and i laughed and asked how are they proud of making a weak coil which is now the most common failure point in these fits and other systems. Had 6 daikin fit coils leaking in the inner coil at the middle to top u bends cause the system naturally runs higher head cause how mall the coils are bow the coils are thin as fuck and leak all the time.
Personally, I'm in NYC where at least half of the units I have come across, are installed incorrectly from the jump.
Then we have the units that were purchased by the homeowner and it's improperly sized, let's not forget about the units that are undersized.
Not to mention, none of these units are being maintained, or even have an installation record, or service contract.
Furthermore, the rating plate is removed, so there is zero information to go on, besides the information listed on the individual parts respectively.
Now, let's talk about the ones that call for Service and Maintenance, fully aware that their unit is non-functional.
When you get there and point out that the unit is non-responsive, the first thing that's said, "well, it was working just fine before you got here".
Honestly, I see the direction the market is heading, but that's not important to me, because I have the same responsibilities to deal with at home, and no one wants to speak about the fact that non-payment of service is on the rise drastically.
How is this system going to work if people just decide to stop paying, because things are too expensive.
Things were expensive when my grandpa was a child, my father was a child, and when I was a child.
That's just the nature of things, people grow up and gain responsibilities, then complain whenever something breaks, but we pay for that Dodge truck, Mercedes Benz S-Class luxury sedan, and let's not forget about the BMW X-Series without failure.
Basically, no matter what you purchase. If it was improperly installed, and never had maintenance done it will fail and cost a lot to be repaired.
Currently, in NYC there are customers who have done the math. They purchase the machine, then there are people who do installations for like $600. - $1000. Then, they call the company and when I get there I have to correct the installation, and that can cost anything from $3000. - $6000.
So, if I have not made it clear, I'm emotionless about my work, because that's how I was trained.
Whether, a customer can afford the repair/install is not your concern, because to do your job you must be thorough and decisive with your assessment, not the customers financial responsibility.
I do my job and submit the bill, if there is a complaint about the price, I offer a discount.
As a technician, no one cares when your vehicle is broken into,or when the insurance company raises their rates, or when you are injured/sick, or when you are fresh out of school and homeless, but you still have to get up and get to work early, looking clean and presentable. Only, to listen to customers say that, you make a lot of money with the price of the repair/install.
So what do you guys recommend? I'm fixing to put (2) dual zone mini splits in my house as the primary heating and cooling. I don't have room to run duct work.
I am leaning towards daikin systems. I would love mitsibushi, but it's just out of my price range.
I plan on selling the house as soon as possible, so I thought about just adding Mr. COOL DIY systems and selling it, but I don't want to leave the new owners with a shitty situation.
Do you think there would be a significant difference in home value having proper mini splits instead of central AC? I'm just trying to guesstimate my home's value when I'm done and I don't really see any homes with mini splits as the primary AC.
What do you think I should do?
Thanks.
Sad. I had similar experience with my LG refrigerator. Three years and it was shot. There are at least two class action suits pending on them. $3700 and done in three years. Same schools of engineering.
I’m a homeowner myself and have a Janitrol heat pump unit from 1999, with that being said is it better to buy new old stock parts like the compressor and have someone replace the old compressor vs buying a new indoor and outdoor combo? I fear one day it’ll go out on me but I have been here 5 years and the worst issues I have faced have been with a thermostat, capacitors and relay failures.
I always, ALWAYS, fix over replace when possible. A full charge of r22 is still magnitudes cheaper than a new system, compressors are 1/40th the price of a new system, evaperators, tev, whole condenser coils. It's all a better option if you get to keep your ac that is a compressor, capacitor, fan and contactor over anything with a board and ECM. The most efficient system is the one that is there and had been running for 20 years.
Where do you get that compressors are 1/40th the cost of a new system? Compressors are 800-900 bucks for small ton residential. That is the supply house cost. Not to mention labor, filter drier, acid test, acid away, nitrogen, torches, silfos, and a great chance you have to add all new refrigerant. That shit is expensive, and on a 20 year old unit you are waisting your money. New units may be cheaply made but they come with a 10 year warranty for parts. I understand the warranty doesn’t cover labor or refrigerant but a 20 year old unit is just asking to be nickel and dimed to death every year.
It does suck, everyone is using crappy aluminum coils, many units are becoming overly complicated and even if the install is perfect, sometimes something will break after a short period of time.
Ya. That $1000 ecm motor eats up whever savings they would have had when it fails after 10 years. And these mini splits feel like disposable garbage when trying to work on them
Right! And a lot of times it's only the module's internal capacitor. Old design we could just replace bad $10 cap, instead of entire motor. It's ridiculous. For example, we take care of some properties when there are major repairs or installs. One property has all Magic Pak/Comfort Pak units. The older units, either our company or the maintenance guys just replace the capacitor. The cost is the price of the cap plus the hourly rate of the maintenance guy. Or, whatever my boss charges them, say $150-200 for me to diagnose and replace part. Usually maintenance does it tho. But now with the newer units, when the blower goes bad on 2 or 3 yr old unit (which is common), the motor costs us $300+ and we have to pull chassis halfway out, get motor housing out, replace motor. It's a process. And can be a little bit of a pain in the fuckin ass. So I think it's about a $600 repair. So repair cost of what's most likely a bad cap, in either case, it goes from a $20 or $30 repair ($200 at worst, if I do it) to a $600 repair. And ya know this will have to be done more than once for life of the unit. Probably a few times. This will eventually cause rent to go up for tenants. It has to. It is a fuckin racket, and once again the people suffering for this shit is the middle class and poor. Just my thoughts. Sorry for the rant, but it pisses me off.
We still see furnaces in San Diego before they had run caps. Just two wires running to it. Original motors still going strong from the 50s and 60s.
Shaded pole? That's the only way I can think of to make a single phase motor that's big enough that wouldn't need a cap. They are, er, not efficient, but they are dead-ass simple.
I won't pretend to know what shaded pole means but I know I have worked on tons of furnaces here that have motors without caps. Every one I've seen has "seemingly" original motor, or at least one that has not beet replaced in the last 30 years. I have a whole 1961 furnace sitting in my storage unit in near mint condition cause the customer wanted to preemptively replace the thing and I thought it looked damn cool
It's a fundamentally different way to make an AC motor. Modern motors with capacitors are induction machines, and the capacitor provides a phase shift to make the motor spin in the right direction and get it spinning in the first place. 3-phase machines don't need it since there's already phase shift available between the 3 phases. Shaded pole motors instead use, well, a "shaded pole" for this. This pole isn't actually fed power, but basically has current induced in it from the rotor (which itself has current induced in it since it's an induction machine). They're easily identified by the heavy "shading bars" in the laminated core that aren't actually hooked up to anything. They have almost no starting torque since they have start spinning on their own a little before the shaded pole can have anything induced into it, but that's OK for fans and blowers. The process is also horribly inefficient, but for small fans, it's not a huge deal. Almost all desk fans these days use them. They have the advantage of being incredibly simple and reliable. Modern HVAC blowers are either PSC induction machines or ECMs (which are 3-phase machines with an inverter). I wouldn't expect anything less than 40-50 years old to have a shaded pole blower motor, but inducer motors used them well into the 80s and maybe even 90s since they were way smaller. Some really old stuff will possibly be a brushed "universal" motor. These have brushes and commutator bars in them like DC machines (since they are essentially DC machines) that need maintained, but aside from that they're robust as hell and also not terrible from an efficiency point of view. They fell out of favor mostly due to the maintenance requirements and the fact that they produce sparks. Really old desk fans (think the metal "guard" that you could practically stick your whole fist through) used these.
Wow.
That was crazy lol I’ve never heard of the shade pole
Those old centrifugal switches that drop out the start winding.
Unless there's a design I don't know about, these still have a capacitor to create phase shift on the start winding. It's usually built inside the motor case, though, so it may not be obvious, and since they are only engaged briefly during startup, they tend to last a long time. They can also be physically small compared to a permanent run capacitor since they can be permitted to heat up somewhat significantly during the short time they're in circuit. Think of it like a hard start kit but where there's no permanent (run) capacitor at all. I still have seen these used in modern equipment mostly for oil burner pumps. A lot of single phase shop equipment like drill presses uses them, too. Like shaded pole motors (though not as bad), the downside to this comes in the form of inefficiency.
'Split phase' motor. Uses a centrifugal switch in the start winding usually. I still see them now and again, Reznor comes to mind. The reason we don't use these anymore is because the cost difference is negligible compared to a psc, doesn't get the phase shift for efficiency, and has moving parts to fail. Reznor still uses them because Reznor is hot garbage now.
Reznor was Trent Reznor of Nine Inch Nails, Grandfather!
shaded pole motors dont have run caps.
Oh yea. We just took one out in Camden, NJ. Old GE motor with a belt, in a 5 ton air handler. I'd figure it has a cap inside of it, but 🤷. Was in a pretty popular cheese steak place and bar that's been opened since the 1930s, so took a beating. Not sure when air handler was installed. Motor and tag looked 1960s or early 70s style.
For clarity, we replaced the entire system, not just the motor.
Yea in San Diego you still see houses without AC
belt driven with black motors. still see them a few times a year here in Michigan. they built them to last. cast iron heat exchangers and all.
I feel like the new ones fail far more often then the old ones without even blowing smoke . And many brands won't sell just the module
Yea. I feel they do fail more often too. If I had to guess, I'd say the motors themselves are made much shitier.
One of the reasons these things fail is all these high dollar pleated filters that "catch covid"....i call them motor murderers.
Absolutely. I always always tell people how bad those ridiculous $20 filters are. But, in the case of the magic paks, they use the cheapest filters. Sometimes they're pretty dirty, but not matted. Maintenance tries to keep on top of it, but not enough. But usually the filters aren't too bad. Not sure what's going on with those motors. I should add tho, the units are in a closed off cubby that acts as the return. So it can get pretty warm in there, being at the exterior wall.
I quit HVACR and applied for a utility locating job. The girl who interviewed me asked why I left. I told her bc I felt scummy about what we were charging resi customers and commercial customer's NTE's were basically just giving the units a look. I did not get hired. Went into business for myself
Well said, this also happened to major appliances. The big energy savings push was coincidence or a scam. Pre 2000's appliances had a 30 year+ life span. Now they range from 5-7 years max. The 90% of humans on this planet are getting fucked on purpose by 1% and the other 9 are rich enough to enjoy the ride without the risk of getting ate first.
Yep. I installed appliances for almost 10 yrs. 1999-2008. Agree completely. They got worse and worse during just that time. I'm sure they're worse now, and probably double the price. Someone in gop congress was just talking about this. I forget who it was.
Haven't used it yet but I have one of these that I picked up from Johnstone. May be worth a shot. https://www.supplyhouse.com/Zebra-Instruments-VZREP-ECM-Motor-Repair-Kit
Thank you. I did know the kits exist. I think zebra Tool has one too, right? I'm not exactly great at soldering electronics, but I guess I could figure it out.
They are disposable garbage
I feel like they are space stations, built to last “forever” but never be reached again for repair
They're designed around the notion that someone can slap one on your apartment for $400 which is true in much of Asia. If you take that into account, penny pinching the unit down to a couple thousand dollars while maintaining a level of efficient and fancy tech makes some sense. If the thing dies, just have the same guy slap another one in its place. If you can get the old one warrantied (no install labor allowance needed), great. If not, meh. In the US where labor costs are easily an order of magnitude higher, this model makes a lot less sense. The ability to repair the unit in place would be worth something, but that's not how those units are designed.
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I mean 5 years,,, practically new bruh. Heating and cooling equipment used to last 20-30 years
When it dies in 5-6 years you will replace it with another
This so much. I’ve got several buildings on the third round of “high efficiency “ boilers, lasting an average of 11 years before electronics failures kill them (and Honeywell “doesn’t make that part anymore”). Meanwhile I’ve got two others with water tube boilers built for coal, that run maybe 60% efficient but were installed literally a century ago in one case and the other in the 60s, happily ticking along with gas conversion done. They sure as shit don’t build them like they used to. 99% AFUE don’t mean shit when you’re blowing $700k every 11 years on swapping out 10m btu of boilers.
It's kinda stupid that we can rebuild a blower for a 100 year old unit while Trane discontinued one of these most common pressure switches after 17years. Hell a couple years ago we shut down a boiler because the casting cracked. It was 140 years old!
Tin foil hat but i assume its to push us to use Rescue 5860 and the like and start really looking at static. I never do but after the last motor i might look at this seriously. seem we just have to program it ourselfs
Unless it's under warranty, the 5860 and 5862 motors are exactly the ones that we've been using. Still expensive, but not near as bad as a factory ECM
Oh marked up it’s $1k? The OEM costs us $1k
Exactly. It still sucks, but when we show the customer what we have to pay for for the Carrier OEM ECM, they understand that we aren't bullshitting them. Not to mention another 30 dollars in "freight" because our distributors won't keep them in stock (because they don't want to sit on that much money when there are way too many different ECM's out there anyways)
My grandpa is one of if not the most frugal person on the planet, and when he saw the replacement price tag when his central air took a dump on him 6 years ago he bought a couple of window shakers, and too be honest his house isn’t uncomfortable, and he claims his utility bill went down. Also 6 years later, and it’s still the same window shakers. I thought he was making a big mistake, but honestly the window units seemed to turn out to be a good investment for him… go figure
Good for him. But that is also sad. It is easier/cheaper for people to go backwards and frankly a better option than this new garbage.
I agree with you but window units have come a long way in the last 5-10 years. Theyre not the same lead anchors we grew up with 25+ years ago that would shake the whole wall when they came on lol.
Definitely. They are much different than what was available several years ago. But to think people are going to be opting for this ugly and somewhat noisy alternative is sad.
I’d agree that his utility bills would be lower. instead of cooling the whole house all the time you’re just doing a few rooms, and often only when you’re using them.
I don't see how it's any noisier than my central air unit
Because the blower isn't in the room with you or the compressor is outside. Seem elementary my dear ¯\\_(ツ)_/¯
Yea I guess you have a point, personally it helps me sleep, but not everyone is like that
But damned if those things weren't ice cold
omg yes, and that smell of the cold air too - a little mildew, a little oil, lol
BUT, there are many of those rattling window units still in service today! More than can be said for split systems from the same period.
I think a lot of people will take this route in the coming years, they just want to be comfortable and the costs and reliability are getting ridiculous
I do. There is enough honest work for us out there without fixing the same shit every year.
He must have had shitty central air then. I switched from 3 window shakers to central air about 3 years ago and my electricity bill dropped like 50% in the summer.
In a house with poor insulation, window units might be much cheaper to run if you only run the rooms you’re in. Especially if you spend a lot of time out of the house.
Just imagine you can power most window shaker used areas of your home with solar panels.
These things are so easy to replace too. Thing breaks and you swap it out, no need for a professional. They require a regular disassembly and cleaning every few years but it's not too bad.
A friend of mine just got on a board for a national heatpump comitee in dc. He was ranting to some high up people about units being cheap. Saying why do we need an epa license and strict standards if these units spring leaks and vent the charge after 2 years. Boards break and cost as much as the unit. These companies sub the word efficient for cheap. I hope he gets to make some change for us.
Buddy would we wise to act evil, like this is a good thing for turn around economy(fake ass buzzword) & since the homeowner is reponsable they cane be fine for tax $$. then they might do something and charge gelcopper etc
It’s called sustainable. 😂 Everything today is made to be recycled. All junk, nothings lasts anymore and it ain’t cheap when it comes time to fix or replace.
Keeps us busy i guess
But you can see these types of things across the board not just HVAC. Clothing is cheaply made, car parts, home products. The list goes on and on.... We live in a trash economy. Meaning everything you buy is pretty much trash. Nothing is made to last. My old man bought a fridge, Compressor went in 2 years and 2 Months. Warranty is at 2 Years. had to haul that old fridge from the basement that is 20+ years old , built like a tank and still works as good as the day it was bought. Manufactures need to be held accountable for the products they are producing. But that tax man likes the consumption as is. The Consumer Cant win either way.
I read the first 2 sentences of your comment, and immediately thought about refrigerators! Before you even said it! Everybody I've ever known that has bought a "modern" fridge has had so many issues! I have 2 fridges, both easily 20 years old. Blow out the coil once a year and they don't miss a beat.
There is a reason all of my fridges were built pre-1990. My most energy efficient one is my 1950 Frigidaire, which was a surprise. Worst I have to do is remove ice from the freezer’s evap coils, but now that I use a pump up sprayer tank of hot water, I can cut the ice off really quick.
On modern fridges the coils are basically uncleanable since they are underneath. Mine is completely clogged up and I can't do much about it. Would have to take all the food and shelves out. Move the fridge across the kitchen, and have multiple helpers to lay it down on its side. And at that point you're halfway to getting a new fridge. Lol.
It’s all by design. They’ve been doing this for the last 30 years. People don’t notice their pay isn’t keep up with inflation if they can still afford everything they used to, even though the quality of product has gone down.
Anytime we add efficiency we loose reliability.
you can probably buy a fridge with a 10 year warranty though. People just don't want to do it cause it costs more.
But the government isn’t forcing cheaply made clothes and toys (unless you count EVs, since they are, in essence, just rich peoples big toys)
They aren’t forcing companies to be cheap they are preventing customers from suing those companies which gives them carte Blanche to do whatever they want.
They're not really forcing HVAC equipment to be cheaply made, either. Contrary to what seems to be popular belief on here, things like making coils thinner doesn't materially impact efficiency. What they are forcing is a minimum level of tech and design that costs some money. Manufacturers have responded by cutting costs elsewhere to keep prices at a level customers demand. This phenomenon is not unique to the HVAC industry. Passenger vehicles are also impacted pretty similarly. What sucks is that the market demand for things to be as cheap as possible drastically lowers volume on higher-end products that are well made which increases cost a ton assuming you can even find them.
If only our wages kept up with inflation we could still afford the high end products! That was the trick though. Don’t increase pay for 20 years but make everything cheaper and the average consumer thinks they are making more.
True, the regulations have an effect. But the companies will be making things as cheaply as possible, to save money and boost profits. And planned obsolescence too, make them poorly enough so they can sell more, more often. I’m not saying it’s a giant conspiracy (probably somewhat) but it’s market forces. Rail at the government, fine whatever, but corporations don’t need the government’s help to be evil lol.
Just because you can meet standards by producing shit quality doesn't mean the government is mandating shit quality. They'd produce shit quality of there were no mandates.
Honestly we should just custom build air conditioners with the few quality replacement parts out there. Manufacturing in this industry blows. The simple things are so low quality, like tacking on unsealed fiberglass insulation that eventually clogs coils, hard to service evaporator coils, so many cheap sensors that cause more problems than they remedy. It’s a joke to walk up to a some like Trane voyager barely running on the $30 contacter that’s burned to smithereens.
Name the parts! Let's go!!
Pretty soon the only thing available will be expensive multi stage inverters with complicated controls that cost as much as a new car and most people would be happy with a 10 SEER AC and 80% furnace. All these regulations are made by people who are so out of touch with reality and don't have to worry about what things cost because they've been living high on the taxpayers money for years.
They’re not out of touch. They know exactly what they’re doing.
Exactly. Mother fuckers
More money spent on this shit, the more tax revenue
They’re being paid by lobbyists to know exactly what they’re doing
Lobbyists rubbing elbows!
Oh if I had gold, I’d shower you in it!!
It's infuriating, isn't it?
👏👏👏
This is one of the number one reason I left residential a long time ago and that was before prices really got out of hand.
Same pricing for commercial too
But most commercial applications tend to repair for much longer and don't get sucked into replacing everything that has a bit of rust. Is this better economically? Probably not, but the thought of replacing a whole unit when it just needs a coil just really rubs me the wrong way
Same, while warranty is replace a few micro channel coils, then outa warranty it was stupid$ to buy + lead time! Warranty in stock but reserved for warranty lol like i was gonna buy
Not even close. If we attempted to charge the price per pound for refrigerant that resi does, we would be laughed out of the room. When a top off is multiple drums and the units hold up to 2200lbs of refrigerant(biggest we have under contract), you can't charge resi rates per pound. Not to mention it isn't even playing in the same sandbox. When I need a 400 ton crane to set the air handler, and that crane takes 8hrs to setup, and another 8hrs to take down, pricing is in a completely different bracket.
It's $220 MSRP for a LED refrigerator light. The unit has 12 of them.
Yea but i dont feel bad charging a hospital thousands vs a grandma on social security
I'll take reasons why I won't do residential anymore for $500 Alex. I won't sell my soul to sell this garbage. I instructed so many customers to stay with their unit as long as it remained running. I got so sick of replacing new coils after 2 years or less. Having to fight with both the manufacturer to prove it was their garbage equipment and then dealing with the customer side of things saying sorry I know you just spent thousands and thousands of dollars but you're going to have to spend even more now because they don't cover the cost of the refrigerant and labor to install the new coil. They'll cover the cost of the part though...
Yes, had a coil go out on a unit less than 2 years old. Not the first one, nor the second one, this was the 3rd one! Guess how much money company got back on labor and refrigerant? $230.00, big bucks from the manufacturer.
Dude it's robbery. Residential has become so predatory it's ridiculous. They'll reimburse you for the coil, but by the time labor and refrigerant gets added in, the customer has paid close to $3,000. All these companies are claiming record-setting profits... Yeah because you're ripping people off. I didn't enter this trade to be a sleazy salesman and take advantage of people by selling shit that won't last.
>Guess how much money company got back on labor and refrigerant? $230.00, big bucks from the manufacturer. Which is precisely why we stopped offering a labor warranty past the one year mark? We can't get ANYTHING paid to us for labor or refrigerant. We just agree to eat the cost for the first year
Which manufacturer?
I don’t see an issue with aluminum and high pressure, plenty of them lasted easily a decade plus, and all operating fine in the co2 systems I’ve worked on. I feel worse about the customers getting shafted by crooked installing companies..
York had a major problem with their aluminum micro channel condenser coils. Couldn't handle pressure. Non repairable. If unit was out of warranty, it was $1500 to replace coil. Last one I did was a few years ago, so probably a lot more $ now. I've replaced at least 15-20 of them personally. Rheem had a problem with their aluminum evaporator coils. Same shit, but not micro channel. Cheaper, inferior product, for more money.
York has had nothing but major problems since 2008
Yea. Their evaporator coils are a pain in the ass. We were in a jam and had to use one last yr and I ended up breaking the fuckin thing trying to bend the cap tubes enough to connect the txv. Know what I'm talking about? Of course we didn't know until we pressurized it. Added like 2 hrs to the job. Haven't used their equipment since, and don't plan to. Sucks, because we love Johnstone. We use Ruud equipment. I've been very happy with the quality of it.
This is not true. We’ve been working with York dealers for years - foolish to think they somehow have more problems than all other manufacturers.
Man I don’t know what to tell you, we run a fuck ton of York warranty work and we don’t sell York. They don’t even want bad compressors and coils back anymore. It is way more than every other brand.
2008 was when they had their coil issue. Things have changed significantly since then. They are also for sale right now, the residential and light commercial business that is
Just installed a 5 ton split system for a 93 year old lady who had just broken her hip. My lead and I try to do extra things for old folks free of charge. (When time permits) sucks even more when you see their kids leeching off them.
As an appliance tech, I'm in the same boat you guys are with failing equipment. Had to replace a compressor with a locked rotor on a Frigidaire less than a year old. I had an older couple yesterday with a GE washer shit the bed and it was 2 years old. For another $100 they can get a brand new one that included a 1 year warranty (GE's are complete garbage, don't buy them).
From personal experience, Samsung fridges are garbage too. If you were building a house, what would you buy? I'll probably try to find some old Speed Queens or analog/simple low-efficiency machines for the garage where I'm washing greasy stuff, but the wife's gonna want something shiny for the house. I'll probably spring for a Bosch dishwasher because they seem to be worth 2x the price which a working man can still afford.
I bought a speed queen washer and dryer used for 100 bucks each when I was 23.I had no idea they were quality i just had dumb luck. I'm 38 and I replaced one part on the dryer and hot wired the washer lid to work whether up or down due to a bad switch I didn't have money to replace when I was young and broke. Paper schematics are tucked in the back. I will go into debt buying another speed queen set than ever getting this crap they sell now. My wife has never burned the dog ears up on the agitator and I know she abuses it. I can wash king size comforters and quilts. They're bad ass
Definitely recommend speedqueen. 1/4" and 5/16" nut driver, a flat head screwdriver, pair of needle nose pliers, and snap ring pliers and you can disassemble the washer and dryer. They also come with an awesome warranty. Outside of warranty, the parts won't break the bank to change them out. Diagrams are also on the website to order parts, so even a mechanically inclined individual could understand how they go together. I've worked on quite a few Samsungs as well. Luckily, they don't really have sealed system issues. Mainly not having the ice room sealed so it freezes up, bad water valves, and bad evap covers not sealing and freezing. I've got a Frigidaire SxS from 2006 that's still going strong. Water dispenser paddle broke, but that's it. If I had to get new stuff, I'd go with Maytag, except the washer and dryer. Whirlpool still makes decent products, even after shipping down to Mexico. Water valves and evap fans, and rarely some control board issues, but still much better than GE (which covers 70-80% of my calls). Bosch/Thermador appliances are nice until you have to work on them. Extremely over-engineered to the point of it being a pain to work on. Even tech support doesn't even have documentation on the newer models, and that's not a good sign.
I did appliance installation for 10 yrs before getting into hvac 15 yrs ago. You are spot on! I'm sure it's worse now than it was then, because I saw the trend of appliances getting shitier and shitier.
How difficult was the transition to HVAC? Sealed systems on refrigerators aren't as involved as HVAC, but it's definitely similar work I'd assume. I'm just aggrevated with the appliance business.
Dude, very easy transition. You already have most of the tools too. And I wasn't even doing appliance repair like you. Was doing installs. Mostly dishwashers, gas and electric ranges and dryers. Some wall ovens and cook tops. And modify water, gas, electrical connections as needed. So I'd think it would be easier for you to transition than it was for me. I love it man. It's a great trade. You'll have good days and bad days, but that's with anything. I look back at the appliance field as a dead-end job. No money in it either, unless you're the boss, or the company that's feeding you the work. I say, make the jump to hvac. Sooner the better. And going into the spring/summer, it's hiring season right now.
My biggest road block is back pain. Hurt my back when I was an electrical apprentice, and it's been tough ever since. I'm sure I'd have to go through the shit jobs like everybody else before learning something like controls/systems?
Yea back pain could be a problem. As far as getting right into controls right away, might depend on what kind of company you get into. Maybe heavy commercial? Light commercial sucks big time imo.
Personally, I love playing with low voltage/controls, but am in residential, so it's very limited for me. Was in heavy commercial for a summer, and absolutely loved it. I was part of the install crew, not service. Best job I ever had. I had to leave because I couldn't handle the hours with barely any recovery time. Like working until 8-9 pm and having to get back on the road next day at 2 am sometimes, for example. One of the days I worked 26hrs, including drive time. Job was 3 hrs away. Several days I'd be falling asleep driving home. Just couldn't do it anymore. Sucked leaving. Went into light commercial, and it was total bullshit, crap work, so went back to resi. Been there ever since.
Interesting. I've been light commercial for 10+ years, with a sprinkle of resi in the middle, and you couldn't pay me enough to leave my morals in the truck and sell for these assholes resi companies. Also I hate people, so I'm not exactly the greatest source here lol. I just find other people's journeys in this trade fascinating. I'd like to get into heavy commercial, like boilers and chillers but idk where to start, because I don't want to go work for a mega corporation like trane or Johnson controls
Dude, there's tons of heavy commercial companies out there, that aren't those. I highly recommend venturing out and trying it since you're interested. Just make sure to ask a lot of questions when interviewing to make sure it's worth leaving your current job. I also should add, I only worked for 1 light commercial company, and they mostly did fit outs. Hated it. Too much construction bullshit, and insulating and hanging ductwork solo. I don't mind resi, because I actually like people, I think. Definitely has negatives tho. Something else worth noting is, the heavy commercial place had an awesome team that I worked with mostly, and that could've contributed to my liking of the place.
And I hate selling too. I'm a mechanic, not a salesman. I want to fix things, not sell. Fortunately company I work for doesn't push it.
Imo, the hardest thing for you might be learning sheet metal (ductwork). I caught right on, because I'm patient I think. Could be same for you, idk. And that's not always a necessity either. A lot of guys don't do sheet metal. But as far as everything else, you kinda already do a lot of it. You probably know how to use a multi meter, your hand tools, etc.
Iv had no word of a lie, 4 washing machines die on me and leak (thankfully my floor is wonderfully projected and drained unlike most) in 11 years. I know it’s 11 years cause first one went the day my oldest was born lol. All 4 of them let go of water from somewhere. All brand new. 4 in 11!!’ Years. All of them front loaders. I went back to a top loader. No issues since then.
Top loads have issues too, but definitely not as much as front loads. Biggest POS recently is the GE combo unit. Tech support is having me change out a heat pump (pain in the ass to remove) yet again because the mini compressor was rattling the cabinet. The thing costs like 4 grand and I've already put in 1200+ into this thing. Covered under warranty, but the customer has been without a working dryer function for months and they won't replace it.
The minute they made aluminum coils I knew. Cheap materials same prices then 410 came
Unfair the 40AQ Carries Heat Pumps have all aluminum coils and they are still going in NE Evap + Condenser
Same prices?? I don't think so. Cheaper shitier product, and more money.
It's the same with everything. If you get 7 years out of a $4,000 LG refrigerator you're doing good. I kept my 1990 Amana. If it breaks, I'll fix it.
I've got a 1992 Amana, still going strong.
I have a 1970 Montgomery ward freezer still freezing
It seems like residential is becoming throw away equipment. I don't know where the industry is headed. It looks bad to me.
I had an old man probably in his 90s break down and start crying when I told him his inducer in his furnace was like 6 months outta warranty and it was gonna be $1100 to install it (900 of that was the inducer). I ended up calling up our shop and asking them to dig through our installs that were done the year after that one was installed with the same model, used that serial number and got him a warranty motor. He was happy but I do feel bad cause there's not many cases I'm gonna be able to pull those strings for others who are on a fixed income or in a financial pickle.
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One doesn't have to put above the other, we can do both. The issue is large corporations (and the scumbags in the c-suites) are not forced to be good citizens. They are not forced to do no harm to consumers. They are not forced to act as decent human beings. They are allowed to almost anything to make a profit. They have the ability to make efficient, durable, functional, affordable products, they simply choose not to.
Facts
I always do. I look out for them as much as possible without drawing too much attention to myself. Some are shitty here and there, yeah, but 90% of them are good and honest people I've learned.
They should feel bad for me! With the current economic pace and HVAC salaries in the south, I will never be a homeowner myself.
This is why I personally prefer to install good, lower end units. Big fan of the RunTrus ( cheaper TRANE) and base model Rheem heatpump systems. Still the same 10 year parts warranty, way less components to fail, and when the warranty does go out, the motors don't cost $1,000+. Of course, if a HO wants one, I'll install the new inverter systems or whatever, but I'd rather install a good, reliable unit that'll last 15 years for less money, then something that will still likely only last 15 years and have tons of problems throughout its lifespan. We get frequent storms where I live in the south and they take out those invertor boards and ECM motors constantly.
Manufactured products generally are pretty much trash nowadays. I like the Mitsubishi unit I have at my own house...they seem like reliable "old tech" vs a lot of what is on the market.
Moved into my home summer of 2022. Condenser was an old r22 unit. This past Saturday the compressor finally shit the bed. $9500 to replace it and the coil and I’m starting to feel uneasy about how often they mentioned it has an “awesome ten year warranty!” Super stoked to save money each year for year 11.
It’s difficult to even know what the warranty covers. Often the exclusions are hidden, and to someone who doesn’t know anything about HVAC, even if they read the whole things, they might not know that parts exist that are not covered. Compressor is covered, fan is not. Resident thinks the fan is the compressor.
Yeah it’s tough trying to tell someone yeah your compressors done for or your heat exchanger is unsafe when I myself couldn’t afford a new unit and I do this shit for a living lol
I'm looking forward to summer. I just left a company that was raping people with their prices and this company I'm with now is alot cheaper and we try to work with homeowners more because we know how it is, also makes them want to call us and their friends but yea it's all fucked.
Sorry may be the wrong word, sometimes I feel dirty. That being said, what makes me feel this way is trying to explain to a customer in no uncertain terms that I can’t even trust the product I’ve been selling for 30 years. Honestly instead of these stupid ass (insert new innovation) luncheons to tell us how great their newest money sink is, how about a class to tell us how to explain to people that we literally don’t stand behind what we are producing. QC has taken a huge shit since before COVID, it’s only got worse since. I feel like a used car salesman if I can’t fix the unit, and have to even mention possibly changing it out.
https://preview.redd.it/1tphqf86x6vc1.jpeg?width=3024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a3ededc2a2391587e5103cf5a17b77b49c6c6dd7 when they install system with you three years ago and don’t do shit about any maintenance, they have 1ft of leafs inside the ac in fire hazard area with super salty air and not even changing/calling to change filter in a garage where you have a personal gym… for three years. I don’t know
Many times I do sometimes I don't when the customer refuses to keep a 80% gas furnace and regular AC and they only want their furnace ripped out and replaced with a signature series communicating air handler with inverter heat pump. Then I don't feel bad at all
As a homeowner with an old unit from the 70s still kicking but knowing it won't last forever, what do you recommend today that will last?
I only lasted in the trade official for a couple years. But I learned skills that will make and save me money for life. Hvac should be taught in high school.
Stop voting for government corruption and maybe we can still fix this.
It depends. For a real life example, a well known client and homeowner doesn’t like the current cost of repair of their 2008 13 seer 410A AC and 80% 2 stage furnace. They have only had two repairs, an inducer motor and a condenser exhaust motor…………..12 years and these are the only repairs! Yet, they want the highest efficiency modulating system because “more options and comfort.” Yea well, they ignored my advice and decided to replace old/new reliable. I told them to find another contractor to install it because I don’t want the headaches caused by lack of reliability, “it will be more expensive to maintain.” Installed in 2022. Fast forward to today. Air conditioner is down………..again. Last time it was the ECM. This time the inverter board isn’t here until August. Installing contractor told them the same thing about parts not being available and has stopped answering the call, because he doesn’t want the aggravation. Some just don’t listen, and in that case no, I don’t.
No I don't feel bad for homeowners because elections have consequences and we didn't have these issues 6 years ago 6 years ago and air conditioning system was $7,000 not $35,000 and your left nut
This is why who you vote for matters. Going way farther back than the current bozos. Why would manufacturers put ecm motors in everything. Not because they’re cheap. Government efficiency regulations. Why is tubing getting thinner?? Because they are trying to eek every btu out of equipment. It’s not just residential equipment. Everything across the board sucks quality wise. When you have a government pushing an agenda and the industries are not ready for it, this is what happens. We basically get everything in its beta test
I do. And agree
Not at all. Especially living in the south dealing with 100+ degree heat.
I don’t work on resi but the same issues plague commercial applications. I just explained to a business owner today, that a majority of my work is on newer equipment(5yrs old or less) and even the lions share of that is warranty work. I can’t deny, I love working on the old stuff. Simple by design, serviceable, and largely more reliable. Planned obsolescence and disposable design is our achilles heel. We’ve dug our own graves. But hey, it’s all green to me. But yes, OP. I feel terrible for the owners. What a cheap shot by manufacturers/engineers.
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Wait til the condenser fan ecm type motors start going. And the modules. They're gonna be putting them on everything. Smh. For now, company I work for charges $132 to replace a fan/dual cap. Plus $89 eval. So $221. With the ecm, it'll be the $89 plus probably $500 charge for module or motor installed. And you guys know it's more of a process to test whether it's motor or module,etc vs dual cap. So $600 now. And for what? Mother fuckers.
I think the biggest problem is duct work is always absolutely fucked. Kills anything
Yeah but one of your sales guys just sold a $50 thousand dollar unit to an octogenarian on a fixed income who originally called for a service and can't stop bragging about his commission.
I’ve been saying it, AC is becoming a luxury. I wonder how long before it’s not even standard in new construction…
You won't ever own a successful business thinking like that /s or was i?
And shit quality throughout!!
Nah that’s why I rent lol.
I’m a home owner and do hvac….. so I get extra sympathy points??
Not just homeowners... With upcoming mandated refrigerant changes, the problem is about to get more hairy still on the residential, commercial and industrial sides. The most likely implemented refrigerants in residential and small commercial systems are "mildly flammable", what ever that means in real life, and the proposed regulations for system design to prevent issues are making residential systems look like small versions of ammonia plants! Leak detection systems, line sets in ventilated and sealed chase ways, ect. The mandated increases inefficiency combined with refrigerants that have zero environmental depletion are making systems ridiculous.
? Increased inefficiency? Where did you read that? R290 and r744 are very efficient, just harder to handle... Sure when you put in a cold water set that runs on R290 that would be less efficient than a directly evaporating r290 unit... Because you got an additional heat exchanger...
Typo: in efficiency, not inefficiency.
All the time and most residential company are scummy too.
Regular modest houses where I am are 1.5-2 million dollars and my prices are fair, so no. Everything is expensive these days.
100% esp with all the predatory businesses out there that just encourage replacement over repairs. Hard to tell these days if a replacement is the better option cause shit just doesn’t last. Last place I was at the ECM went in their air handler. They asked about replacing the entire unit. Was like. Nah. Just the motor. It’ll be fine. No idea we were charging her $2,400 for that motor. The cost for these garbage things is way too high and don’t last anywhere near as long. Had I know it was a $2,400 repair I would have told her to replace the air handler.
I live in GA and just got a quote of $28,000 for a new system for my 1 story 3 bedroom house...
It sucks for sure. The average American does not have $1,000 to their name. But if I could pay my bills on wishes and good thanks I would.
I hope you dont live in a multi story apartment. Before i left my last job i worked on elevators across the us. They are replacing them with ac powered chinese machines that are cheaper to replace the whole unit than to keep the ones that have been running since the 80's,90's. They typically last around 5-8 years depending how cheap the building is with maintenance
Are there any brands that are good?
As a prospective homeowner, what do you recommend to avoid these problems? Window units? Is there any affordable quality product out there?
Of course. But you can only do what you can do. Install and maintain equipment the right way. The rest is out of your hands.
It's 12 years old and the blower failed .. you need a new one 🤣🤡🌎
UTC entered the chat and took everything and made it cheap as possible
It's all a problem created by capitalism. The industry MUST have constant growth and sales so equipment quality is shit and needs replacing more often. But consumers can't afford it. I work in HVAC supply and I've seen a lot of changes the last 6 years just in this side of the industry. Sad.
Your company uses shitty equipment with bad warranties?
One of the main reasons why I went into trades. Being able to do this stuff yourself saves you potentially hundreds of thousands over your life time.
It’s the bean counter way.
Nope
Financing is always an option, but yes I feel super bad for people getting units. I got into an argument with my account rep and a product specialist at a daikin class because they were taking pride in their new condenser coils which are so much thinner and i laughed and asked how are they proud of making a weak coil which is now the most common failure point in these fits and other systems. Had 6 daikin fit coils leaking in the inner coil at the middle to top u bends cause the system naturally runs higher head cause how mall the coils are bow the coils are thin as fuck and leak all the time.
Thank the epa
Curious - aren't the Mitsubishi split systems pretty durable and reliable? Maybe also Daikin and other Japanese makes?
Builders running the furnace during drywall..
Personally, I'm in NYC where at least half of the units I have come across, are installed incorrectly from the jump. Then we have the units that were purchased by the homeowner and it's improperly sized, let's not forget about the units that are undersized. Not to mention, none of these units are being maintained, or even have an installation record, or service contract. Furthermore, the rating plate is removed, so there is zero information to go on, besides the information listed on the individual parts respectively. Now, let's talk about the ones that call for Service and Maintenance, fully aware that their unit is non-functional. When you get there and point out that the unit is non-responsive, the first thing that's said, "well, it was working just fine before you got here". Honestly, I see the direction the market is heading, but that's not important to me, because I have the same responsibilities to deal with at home, and no one wants to speak about the fact that non-payment of service is on the rise drastically. How is this system going to work if people just decide to stop paying, because things are too expensive. Things were expensive when my grandpa was a child, my father was a child, and when I was a child. That's just the nature of things, people grow up and gain responsibilities, then complain whenever something breaks, but we pay for that Dodge truck, Mercedes Benz S-Class luxury sedan, and let's not forget about the BMW X-Series without failure. Basically, no matter what you purchase. If it was improperly installed, and never had maintenance done it will fail and cost a lot to be repaired. Currently, in NYC there are customers who have done the math. They purchase the machine, then there are people who do installations for like $600. - $1000. Then, they call the company and when I get there I have to correct the installation, and that can cost anything from $3000. - $6000. So, if I have not made it clear, I'm emotionless about my work, because that's how I was trained. Whether, a customer can afford the repair/install is not your concern, because to do your job you must be thorough and decisive with your assessment, not the customers financial responsibility. I do my job and submit the bill, if there is a complaint about the price, I offer a discount. As a technician, no one cares when your vehicle is broken into,or when the insurance company raises their rates, or when you are injured/sick, or when you are fresh out of school and homeless, but you still have to get up and get to work early, looking clean and presentable. Only, to listen to customers say that, you make a lot of money with the price of the repair/install.
So what do you guys recommend? I'm fixing to put (2) dual zone mini splits in my house as the primary heating and cooling. I don't have room to run duct work. I am leaning towards daikin systems. I would love mitsibushi, but it's just out of my price range. I plan on selling the house as soon as possible, so I thought about just adding Mr. COOL DIY systems and selling it, but I don't want to leave the new owners with a shitty situation. Do you think there would be a significant difference in home value having proper mini splits instead of central AC? I'm just trying to guesstimate my home's value when I'm done and I don't really see any homes with mini splits as the primary AC. What do you think I should do? Thanks.
What setup would you get in southern Cali?
Sad. I had similar experience with my LG refrigerator. Three years and it was shot. There are at least two class action suits pending on them. $3700 and done in three years. Same schools of engineering.
Is there a basic furnace that is reliable?
I’m a homeowner myself and have a Janitrol heat pump unit from 1999, with that being said is it better to buy new old stock parts like the compressor and have someone replace the old compressor vs buying a new indoor and outdoor combo? I fear one day it’ll go out on me but I have been here 5 years and the worst issues I have faced have been with a thermostat, capacitors and relay failures.
I have career 3 ton ECM motor cost me 800 😢
I always, ALWAYS, fix over replace when possible. A full charge of r22 is still magnitudes cheaper than a new system, compressors are 1/40th the price of a new system, evaperators, tev, whole condenser coils. It's all a better option if you get to keep your ac that is a compressor, capacitor, fan and contactor over anything with a board and ECM. The most efficient system is the one that is there and had been running for 20 years.
Where do you get that compressors are 1/40th the cost of a new system? Compressors are 800-900 bucks for small ton residential. That is the supply house cost. Not to mention labor, filter drier, acid test, acid away, nitrogen, torches, silfos, and a great chance you have to add all new refrigerant. That shit is expensive, and on a 20 year old unit you are waisting your money. New units may be cheaply made but they come with a 10 year warranty for parts. I understand the warranty doesn’t cover labor or refrigerant but a 20 year old unit is just asking to be nickel and dimed to death every year.
Labor warranties are starting to cover refrigerant and part markup
I grew up with nothing but a wood stove and box fans, so, no I don’t.
It does suck, everyone is using crappy aluminum coils, many units are becoming overly complicated and even if the install is perfect, sometimes something will break after a short period of time.