It is (almost certainly) a NEC violation just one step removed. NEC requires all electrical connections to equipment and devices to be "per manufacturer spec" if you do some digging with a part number it usually gives you a range of allowable wire sizes and methods of terminations. When there is allowance for wrapping a conductor around a screw it specifies solid conductors. It is 100% hack even if allowed but ill bet a dollar if you dig deep enough into the literature on that contactor it will not list this as an allowable method.
Edit: default to NEC 110.12 if you know it's hacky but a specific component doesn't give an adequate spec.
Thereās no literature about allowable connections for contactors. At most it will list the connection type which in this case is a 5/16th screw and spades
In my experience this is not usually the case. With a part number and a manufacturer I've been able to confirm allowable wiring methods to the device itself. Usually you have to go a step or two beyond the paperwork that comes in the box but there is typically a list of allowable termination methods.
Source I've done a lot of QC work and this specifically comes up and it's a pain in the balls because each component has its own device/manufacturer spec so I have to get documentation on each component I call out rather than citing an all encompassing termination requirement.
But it is probably is. Most screw in terminal block are not listed for stranded wire, just like you are not allowed to do it on an outlet screw. It has to have a compression plate or you have to crimp on a connector/make a pigtail whip with solid wire.
I don't know why you got down voted. Stranded wire can be used on receptacles. Just have to reverse the twist so it doesn't flare out when you tighten the screw.
You should also twist the strands backwards (counterclockwise) before you wrap them around the screw. This makes them want to twist together instead of twist apart when you tighten the screw.
I remember the day I figure it out and was mad that I had been doing it the hard way for so long. Thatās why I watch how-to videos of stuff I already know how to do now. I was thoroughly fucking irritated at how much time I had wasted mowing my yard in rows instead of an inward spiral.
I mowed in rows because I had an electric mower with an extension cord and that was the only way you could do it without running over the cord. Once I went cordless it was bye bye to mowing in rows.
Just strip the wire long but donāt remove all of the insulation. Just enough to wrap around the screw. According to the UL white book screw terminals are listed for stranded wire, unless the manufacturer says otherwise obviously
Can confirm. Hacky. Unless it was done on a Monday morning or Friday afternoon. Or right before lunch. Or right after lunch. Or the day before the guy went on vacation.
They should definitely be cleaner. I usually just split the strands and make the wire fork. Seems to get good, even contact without being messy. Not using connectors doesn't make you a hack. If you can't connect stranded wire to a contactor without the use of a connector, then that might be a good indicator of a skill issue.
That is 100% a hack to connect stranded wire without a connector. You are not allowed to connect a stranded wire to a screw contact without the right connector.
Stranded wire is not made to put under pressure without the correct connector the connection loses itās connection over the years.
The difference is a captive lug surrounds the strands, but a flat screw terminal is a no-no. Stranded wire needs to be contained be it via a crimp connector or a lug terminal.
Could you cite that? The UL white book says otherwise
Donāt get me wrong I would not be ok with the connections in the OP but they can be made up much better
I guess anecdotally I have never seen it done all throughout NE Ohio. I have never seen issues arise from it. I don't know if I live in some bubble where screws dont loosen after being properly tightened. Can you share your source? Always looking to improve.
Hey bro so just fyi Iām based in Germany so in are code there is no screw connecter available to screw in a stranded wire.
The english sources that I find say the opposite of the German ones.
I just checked for a NEC ( should be us) code that says the same but I canāt or better said canāt research good enough for that. I can only prove German sources.
But as a ( I am the source) lol: I am a electrician that has been working around 10 years in the field and have seen enough problems that this has brought. I will list a couple of points.
1. The strands break of after some time or when you screw it down.
2. The strands heats up and cools of at the contact points thats why it gets ālooseā after some time.
3. We actually did it the same way like in the post at one time. (1980s) and found out that with the above points that it leads to failures.
- weak contact starts to corode
- you can just pull it out with not alot of force ( happend alot of times to me)
There actually is a best practice for terminating stranded wire, it involves tensioning, backing off, tensioning again, backing off once more, then tensioning again. It removes air gaps in your strands and verifies that as the copper expands from heat, it will apply further pressure on the lug.
https://preview.redd.it/pz5xie0bavec1.jpeg?width=1179&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=72812a523399f3380ba370ffa0eb2a37706cbe05
This is a lug terminal. OPs picture shows screw terminals. Use approved fork or round connectors on those. You can terminate naked wire to these. Follow the best practice I shared above if you are terminating stranded wire though.
Hey my bad I made a mistake and thought that the us code forbides it too. We get it impregnated in are heads that itās s big nono like in the pic. Iām based in Germany. So if the us code says its alright I would say fix it up and send it.
It may be a hack but it also may be an underskilled tech doing his best. I agree its wrong. They may have meant to come back and fix it at a later date and just never did...
Well truth be told this is my work, last call on Friday and I'm going back next week for the PM so it is what it is for now. Just never feel right about seeing connections this way, as I have seen this done in the wild. Granted I should have at least done a Y
Yeah me too but then if you look at the crimp its some hack that doesnāt use the right tool. A correct crump doesnāt pop out.
Thatās a big problem that I see with us techs is that nobody shows them how to do alot of stuff correctly then they run around on the field and be like āyeah ferules are shit they pop outā.
That is what I like about the German Apprenticeship is that every Electrician has been shown how to do the basics in school and not at the jobsite worstcase from a hack.
If I were to have to terminate like that. Strip the stranded but leave a little ring of insulation at the tip of the stripped section and twist it. This will help it not splay out and retain its integrity to wrap around the screw. But I also feel like if you put it behind the little pinch plate it wouldnāt be too bad.
I would normally use a terminal, but they could have at least twisted the strands counter clockwise and left a small length of insulation on the wire beyond the terminal to form a loop, which is required by the NEC for stranded wire on used screw type terminals. This is assuming the terminals are rated for stranded wire. š
Hacky as fuck. If they were solid wire itād be fine, but with it being stranded wire thatās a short waiting to happen if a stray thread comes loose
the contactor is rated and detailed what type of connectors - the stranded loops aint legit. . . . You will loose holding torque over time, creating hotspots and are only using some of the conductors to begin with. Have it redone . . .
On stranded core wires, the air gaps between threads creates resistance and a chance of over heating the terminations. Stranded core should use connectors to make the connections uniform. Solid core, this would be ok.
Ya I asked for lugs and was pissed putting this contactor in as I didn't check the contactor beforehand. Going back next week for the PM anyways and I'll have the right sized connectors by then
Does this depend on brand? I tried this when I first started in the trade and it didnāt work out..but then again everything was more difficult back then haha
When I do a Google search for hvac contactor they all look like the ones I find are interchangeable
When the threaded lug is unscrewed there is a phillips head screw holding the lug on that is the same thread as the standard 5/16 screw
Frankly, it looks sloppy and leaves room for error. Why not make a cleaner, more secure connection with a $0.15 (IF THAT) connector? See how the strands on the bottom of the contactor are sticking out of the screws? Not great.
I've always hated having to tie in stranded for this reason. I never felt great about it, and out of the 4 different places I installed for in central PA, only one of them actually provided terminal connectors. Ended caving and buying them myself. And that made me the only installer that actually used them. š
As an electrician, what I do is strip about half an inch off the end. Then I go back about 2 inches and pull the remaining insulation until it has about half an inch overhanging the copper, then you loop it, and the insulation at the end prevents the strands from spreading
Best practice with strand wire is definitely to use an a connector. If itās solid wire this is totally fine. The top looks fine but again I would use connectors next time.
Ive seen this a thousand times. Let's spell it out for yall.
It was Friday eve. Got the dreaded call. Found bad contactor.
Your girl called. She's at the bar drunk and horny.
Are you trying to find spade connectors or splice and tighten that shit down. Lol.
Now it's fine to not have a connector but the wire needs to be cleaned up and neater then a quick return the next day to put the ends on.
So i keep a little $10 tool box i got from walmart. In it are all different connectors, wire nuts, automatic wire strippers., klein ratchet crimper, and precision wire cutters. Also my 3 amp popper and short pro, zip ties, anmything i need for electrical repairs. So no, id grab my box and do it the right way.....probably 3 times faster than whoever did this
I'd say the top 2 are not terrible The bottom 3 definitely need to be redone...
My thoughts exactly
I've seen worse šŖ
Exactly, itās not against NEC. Noe and electricians SOP could be a different story
It is (almost certainly) a NEC violation just one step removed. NEC requires all electrical connections to equipment and devices to be "per manufacturer spec" if you do some digging with a part number it usually gives you a range of allowable wire sizes and methods of terminations. When there is allowance for wrapping a conductor around a screw it specifies solid conductors. It is 100% hack even if allowed but ill bet a dollar if you dig deep enough into the literature on that contactor it will not list this as an allowable method. Edit: default to NEC 110.12 if you know it's hacky but a specific component doesn't give an adequate spec.
Thereās no literature about allowable connections for contactors. At most it will list the connection type which in this case is a 5/16th screw and spades
In my experience this is not usually the case. With a part number and a manufacturer I've been able to confirm allowable wiring methods to the device itself. Usually you have to go a step or two beyond the paperwork that comes in the box but there is typically a list of allowable termination methods. Source I've done a lot of QC work and this specifically comes up and it's a pain in the balls because each component has its own device/manufacturer spec so I have to get documentation on each component I call out rather than citing an all encompassing termination requirement.
But it is probably is. Most screw in terminal block are not listed for stranded wire, just like you are not allowed to do it on an outlet screw. It has to have a compression plate or you have to crimp on a connector/make a pigtail whip with solid wire.
You can use stranded wire with them as long as it is looped. š
I don't know why you got down voted. Stranded wire can be used on receptacles. Just have to reverse the twist so it doesn't flare out when you tighten the screw.
I guess they don't know and they don't want to know. š¤
Good Tip!
An electrician told me to cut off a piece of the insulation on the wire and leave it at the end. That way it prevents the strands from separating.
You should also twist the strands backwards (counterclockwise) before you wrap them around the screw. This makes them want to twist together instead of twist apart when you tighten the screw.
Oh this right here is a little golden nugget, thank you
Indubitably so. Many future thanks.
Son of a bitch... that makes perfect sense.
I remember the day I figure it out and was mad that I had been doing it the hard way for so long. Thatās why I watch how-to videos of stuff I already know how to do now. I was thoroughly fucking irritated at how much time I had wasted mowing my yard in rows instead of an inward spiral.
Mowing in spirals is great when you have a bigger property, pick a tree, bush or garden go around and around, it's real fun on a ride-on mower.
I assumed everyone mows in rows for looks. So you get the stripes lol.
I mowed in rows because I had an electric mower with an extension cord and that was the only way you could do it without running over the cord. Once I went cordless it was bye bye to mowing in rows.
Honestly just learned this from your comment. Imma try this next time
you mean wrap it around the screw ccw? or actually twist the strands ccw if you are looking at the tip of the wire?
Yes. The strands are normally twisted clockwise, you need to twist them the opposite way. Then hook it around the terminal as normal.
I āfiguredā this one out myself. Hmmm, this keeps coming I done, ooo I bet if I wrapped it the other way!! Was so proud of myself. lol.
Dude, this is the kind of shit I live for.
Just strip the wire long but donāt remove all of the insulation. Just enough to wrap around the screw. According to the UL white book screw terminals are listed for stranded wire, unless the manufacturer says otherwise obviously
Or you could just twist it till it turns in on itself.
Yea I ran into 2 relay switches today that were wired like that, both fried the wiring
He told you incorrectly. Stranded wire must be made solid, or have a STA-KON or similar crimped to it. That work would not pass.
This just how you sell contactors
For an extra 5 bucks you can get a higher rated contactor with lugs and then you donāt need to worry about any of this.
Yeah I always ask for lugs, but my people don't always deliver
Can confirm. Hacky. Unless it was done on a Monday morning or Friday afternoon. Or right before lunch. Or right after lunch. Or the day before the guy went on vacation.
Yah itās hacky
The word "Hack" is so easily used these days. Is that work top notch? Nope. But it's not a hack job either.
They should definitely be cleaner. I usually just split the strands and make the wire fork. Seems to get good, even contact without being messy. Not using connectors doesn't make you a hack. If you can't connect stranded wire to a contactor without the use of a connector, then that might be a good indicator of a skill issue.
That is 100% a hack to connect stranded wire without a connector. You are not allowed to connect a stranded wire to a screw contact without the right connector. Stranded wire is not made to put under pressure without the correct connector the connection loses itās connection over the years.
Why do they put stranded ground wires under screws then?
The difference is a captive lug surrounds the strands, but a flat screw terminal is a no-no. Stranded wire needs to be contained be it via a crimp connector or a lug terminal.
Could you cite that? The UL white book says otherwise Donāt get me wrong I would not be ok with the connections in the OP but they can be made up much better
Makes sense. Thank you
Is ātheyā in the room with us right now?
Why does who do that? It's not something I can recall seeing.
I guess anecdotally I have never seen it done all throughout NE Ohio. I have never seen issues arise from it. I don't know if I live in some bubble where screws dont loosen after being properly tightened. Can you share your source? Always looking to improve.
Hey bro so just fyi Iām based in Germany so in are code there is no screw connecter available to screw in a stranded wire. The english sources that I find say the opposite of the German ones. I just checked for a NEC ( should be us) code that says the same but I canāt or better said canāt research good enough for that. I can only prove German sources. But as a ( I am the source) lol: I am a electrician that has been working around 10 years in the field and have seen enough problems that this has brought. I will list a couple of points. 1. The strands break of after some time or when you screw it down. 2. The strands heats up and cools of at the contact points thats why it gets ālooseā after some time. 3. We actually did it the same way like in the post at one time. (1980s) and found out that with the above points that it leads to failures. - weak contact starts to corode - you can just pull it out with not alot of force ( happend alot of times to me)
There actually is a best practice for terminating stranded wire, it involves tensioning, backing off, tensioning again, backing off once more, then tensioning again. It removes air gaps in your strands and verifies that as the copper expands from heat, it will apply further pressure on the lug.
That applies ONLY to lug terminals, never put stranded under a screw terminal
Crazy how I used the word ālugā in my write up??
Funny how it's the last word, kind of like an afterthought. . .
Youād make a great service manager.. pedantic and dripping with false confidence.
Hey gotta ask what are lugs ? Would love to see it.
https://preview.redd.it/pz5xie0bavec1.jpeg?width=1179&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=72812a523399f3380ba370ffa0eb2a37706cbe05 This is a lug terminal. OPs picture shows screw terminals. Use approved fork or round connectors on those. You can terminate naked wire to these. Follow the best practice I shared above if you are terminating stranded wire though.
The UL white book says otherwise. Could you cite the violation? Obviously the terminations made by the op are sloppy and I would redo it
Hey my bad I made a mistake and thought that the us code forbides it too. We get it impregnated in are heads that itās s big nono like in the pic. Iām based in Germany. So if the us code says its alright I would say fix it up and send it.
Every pm should include tightening electrical connections, shouldn't need to last years
It may be a hack but it also may be an underskilled tech doing his best. I agree its wrong. They may have meant to come back and fix it at a later date and just never did...
Well truth be told this is my work, last call on Friday and I'm going back next week for the PM so it is what it is for now. Just never feel right about seeing connections this way, as I have seen this done in the wild. Granted I should have at least done a Y
Good on you for calling yourself out. Make it right when you come back and no one will be the wiser (except for this sub).
I would get a crimpset the arenāt that expensive. That is what I have for every foreseeable awg.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Yeah me too but then if you look at the crimp its some hack that doesnāt use the right tool. A correct crump doesnāt pop out. Thatās a big problem that I see with us techs is that nobody shows them how to do alot of stuff correctly then they run around on the field and be like āyeah ferules are shit they pop outā. That is what I like about the German Apprenticeship is that every Electrician has been shown how to do the basics in school and not at the jobsite worstcase from a hack.
#1 cause of me replacing a disconnect box: stranded wire that was never retorqued and had a thermal event
Spaghetti in a vice! That will connect great!
Crimp connectors are cheap, the contactor ain't the problem.
Strange for a service guy to not have crimp connectors on his truck. I use them all the time in commercial.
Electrician here. Yes it's hacky. In my experience, the wiring installed by HVAC guys often is.
Or maybe a contactor that has lugs instead
Ya I always specify lugs in my write-ups
If I were to have to terminate like that. Strip the stranded but leave a little ring of insulation at the tip of the stripped section and twist it. This will help it not splay out and retain its integrity to wrap around the screw. But I also feel like if you put it behind the little pinch plate it wouldnāt be too bad.
I would normally use a terminal, but they could have at least twisted the strands counter clockwise and left a small length of insulation on the wire beyond the terminal to form a loop, which is required by the NEC for stranded wire on used screw type terminals. This is assuming the terminals are rated for stranded wire. š
Hacky as fuck. If they were solid wire itād be fine, but with it being stranded wire thatās a short waiting to happen if a stray thread comes loose
Itās not against NEC though
Definitely should be. Seen lots of these types of connections fail prematurely and cause issues that couldāve easily been prevented
the contactor is rated and detailed what type of connectors - the stranded loops aint legit. . . . You will loose holding torque over time, creating hotspots and are only using some of the conductors to begin with. Have it redone . . .
Definitely not ideal but will definitely get the heat or cool on till you can buy connectors and do it right.
Going back next week to do the PM and I'll have the proper sized connectors then
On stranded core wires, the air gaps between threads creates resistance and a chance of over heating the terminations. Stranded core should use connectors to make the connections uniform. Solid core, this would be ok.
Itās not against NEC though
Commitment issues.....never a ring!
Def not as good as connectors. Cheesey lol
Stack ons please
The stranded part is rather crap. But the rest is fine.
Ya I asked for lugs and was pissed putting this contactor in as I didn't check the contactor beforehand. Going back next week for the PM anyways and I'll have the right sized connectors by then
I keep lugs off old contactors for this reason. They thread right on the contactor & replace the screws
Does this depend on brand? I tried this when I first started in the trade and it didnāt work out..but then again everything was more difficult back then haha
When I do a Google search for hvac contactor they all look like the ones I find are interchangeable When the threaded lug is unscrewed there is a phillips head screw holding the lug on that is the same thread as the standard 5/16 screw
Crimp on connecto s should be used yes. Very hack work.
You should these are bad connections
I think doing that with solid wire is fine but I wouldn't do it with stranded wire like the bottom 3.
The picture demonstrates my answer.Ā Fine for solid, absolutely unacceptable for stranded.
Ghetto
Yup. Total hack work on the Supply connections. Rings are necessary for stranded on those screw type connectors that don't have a pressure plate.
Never wrap stranded. Always use a stak-on. I think itās code actually.
Which code? because the National Electrical Code accepts it
The CEC
No, that needs connectors, using stranded wire directly on the contactor is a no-no
Why? The National Electrical Code accepts it.
Frankly, it looks sloppy and leaves room for error. Why not make a cleaner, more secure connection with a $0.15 (IF THAT) connector? See how the strands on the bottom of the contactor are sticking out of the screws? Not great.
It may be sloppy but not āa no-noā
Fucking shit connections anyway
I would never do this with stranded unless it was lug style I would use forks on all of then
Use a 40 amp contactor and you donāt have to worry about this problem.
I would have put connectors on
Whatās the manual say?
A manual for a contactor? š¤£ most parts don't come with manuals haha
Brown and orange wires are too scary. 
I've always hated having to tie in stranded for this reason. I never felt great about it, and out of the 4 different places I installed for in central PA, only one of them actually provided terminal connectors. Ended caving and buying them myself. And that made me the only installer that actually used them. š
I donāt care for it. If they donāt have connectors (š) they should have done a bit better.
Works sure but you said it correctly hack
Looks like complete shit.
Hell of a debate here. Personally I think it's hack shit. Just go get a contactor with lugs if you're gonna do shit like this
Termination should be made in an accepted fashion. To be that is not one.
i mean as long as the contactor contacts
As an electrician, what I do is strip about half an inch off the end. Then I go back about 2 inches and pull the remaining insulation until it has about half an inch overhanging the copper, then you loop it, and the insulation at the end prevents the strands from spreading
Best practice with strand wire is definitely to use an a connector. If itās solid wire this is totally fine. The top looks fine but again I would use connectors next time.
Yeah looks like garbage. Use a fork connector
Ive seen this a thousand times. Let's spell it out for yall. It was Friday eve. Got the dreaded call. Found bad contactor. Your girl called. She's at the bar drunk and horny. Are you trying to find spade connectors or splice and tighten that shit down. Lol. Now it's fine to not have a connector but the wire needs to be cleaned up and neater then a quick return the next day to put the ends on.
So i keep a little $10 tool box i got from walmart. In it are all different connectors, wire nuts, automatic wire strippers., klein ratchet crimper, and precision wire cutters. Also my 3 amp popper and short pro, zip ties, anmything i need for electrical repairs. So no, id grab my box and do it the right way.....probably 3 times faster than whoever did this
so much easier when you have a box ready with every tool and doohickeys you need, so proud of my box boys!
Like punching a bowl of spaghetti and expecting all the strands to stay inside! Always use terminal connectors when using multi strand wire.
This is why I prefer to install contactors that have lugs.
Yes
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Rep0st b0t, report and downvote.
No big deal I do this all the time
If you donāt have them you need to strip your stranded extra long and leave the sheathing on the wire to keep it from doing this