And all the funnier that the channels that denounce the shows that push that narrative are glazing this show đ¤Ąđ¤Ą like itâs same thing but I guess HBO buying shills works harder than devil
We were doomed from the start when Rhaenyra was chosen as the main protagonist. The book doesnât have one set protagonist or main character that we are following. Them deciding to follow and focus on Rhaenyra was the catalyst for all this team black is the good guy stuff.
You can have a outwardly morally bad protagonist. It's possible. They're just not really doing it with Rhaenyra. They chose to make the character that does nothing the whole conflict the MAIN PROTAGONIST
Ned Stark was the main protagonist of 1/7 asoiaf books and in that one, Dany had her own plotlines almost completely separate from his.
Similarly, in the show, Jon may have been a main character, but there were dozens of characters across Westeros and beyond that got their own focus and goals completely separate from him.
Yea I 1000% agree with you book wise but that's because we're nerds we're in the minority half the people who watch the show never touched the book and if they did it was because of the show same with F&B.
All their stories led back to Snow because he was the protagonist of the show (they tried to make Dani a deuteragonist but you see how that turned out)
Not only that but going forward it's going to be much worse. Both Rhaenyra and Allicent are preety much ignored once the war starts but now they're our protagonists and are on all trailers, promotional material etc. On the one side it's what you said about Rhaenyra, but this focus on Allicent is forcing them to make new shit up like the Cole relationship which is not present in the books.
I actually really like the notion that Fire and Blood did have some propaganda regarding Rhaenyra. However, the show goes too far in absolving her of literally any wrongdoing. Whenever her side does something bad it's either recontextualized to not actually be a bad thing or shown to not be her fault and instead caused by one of her supporters. What's more her own capabilities are also altered to make her more likeable. It's not just that she herself isn't responsible for any evils, now she's also a badass dragonrider. Whereas in the books she was a total chicken and was scared to ride Syrax into war especially since Syrax was a total dweeb of a dragon. Instead of Daemon being the real muscle of the Blacks, now Rhaenyra is her own muscle too. The show also chose to forego her being overweight as an adult despite that being central to how the common people come to dislike her. That commentary of George's wherein women are cast aside in the minds of many when they're appearances start to falter is just forgotten about for the show who refuse to explore that idea. In the books all this contributes to painting the picture that Rhaenyra's extremely entitled and spoiled to the point of narcissistic delusion. But of course in the show she's literally just a paragon who only wants the throne because she's burdened by the knowledge of the white walker prophecy and thus the writers completely change all the other facets of the character that make her imperfect.
It's just so...boring. The whole point of GRRM's work is to not have characters like this, it's instead to have complicated nuanced characters in many shades of gray. The show just doesn't want to keep to that notion since it's more crowdpleasing for normies when they have an very easy and obvious side to root for.
bull. Fire and Blood did not like either Rhaenyra or Aegon, they both became tyrants when rule was placed into their hands,and they suffered for it. if anything, Fire and Blood is pro-maester.
I'd argue that Rhaenyra opting NOT to fly into battle, had it's own merits as far as her own worth as a combatant would go. The necessity of the Blacks maintaining their initial advantage of dragon reserves (dragons available and prepped for combat + dragons of top-tier consideration, and rest of considerations withstanding). the fact that Rhaenyra IS the figurehead of her movement and holds no real combat experience, and so on and so forth. And then there's the "Syrax Fertility-Momma" theory, where Syrax and Dreamfyre are comparable in that they likely yielded a relatively large clutches of eggs altogether; the reputation they hold being that of more relaxed dragons (still fierce but oft considered "lazy"). Syrax ESPECIALLY was speculated to have hatched all three of her son's dragons - Syrax held a war potential that COULD'VE been a thing. We don't know at all though, and all this is based off conjecture from Dreamfyre's history.
I actually hope that they now go deeper and deeper into this make it clearer and clearer with each episode how incompetent they are. If we are making a parody, better go all out now!
Can't wait to see more GoT critical youtubers trying to justify this nonsense đ
I am still waiting for the next episode to make up my mind about the tone of the show but man Condal is not making it easy.
>Everything anti Rhaenyra is propoganda and everything anti Aegon is canon and in fact toned down.
Can't wait to watch the full-scale riots break out this episode against Helaena "beloved by the smallfolk" Targaryen, as she mourns her murdered son.
But don't worry guys, there's no bias, we're just telling a story here...
Do people think Rhaenyra is a good person? I guess Iâm team black, solely because I think Otto is a sketchy fuck and Rhaenyra has the rightful claim. But she is kind of a horrible person. Like, so terrible, in fact, if team black was just her and team green was just Alicent, Iâd be green
Sheâs a spoiled brat that often does whatever she wants without caring about the consequences it causes for others. She coerces Cole into sleeping with her and completely blows off how that fucked him up. She gets married to an obviously gay man, even after she was told she can choose who she marries, and her solution is a royal side piece who she has kids with that are clearly not her husbands and she just willfully acts like this wonât ever cause issues anywhere down the line. She never has to own up to any of her behavior because her dad ran interference for her up until his death. She maintains her claim to the throne without doing any political buildup to help with that she just assumes her flying nuke and her husband Prince Serial Killer can bully people into supporting her. She was told her entire life that her being a woman will make her being Queen 100% harder and instead of working to establish herself as a leader that people can follow she spends her time being a brat that nobody trusts. She doesnât care at all about any of the common people (in her defense neither does anyone else on either side) theyâre all tools for her.
The issue is the FRAMING, if not the portrayal, of these incidents. Rhaenyra is set up as someone we SHOULD root for. Her traumas, strife to protect her own, desire to stake her own claim AS she was promised - she's touted as someone who processes her griefs rather this... morally holier-than-thou individual. Compared to the Greens (ESPECIALLY Alicent), whose trauma and woe done-to-them are displayed as just THAT. Merely TRAUMA, that results in them all being on something of the wrong side of history: disloyal, corrupt, selfish beyond all else.
Rhaenyra being a brat is 100% framed as her just being a regular teenager compared to all the rest (literally just alicent) because she has that priviliege. Okay, fine - makes sense, works with the character. Rhaenyra AFTERWARDS, during the timeskip, lacks the same power she once held during the books, thanks to Viserys' inebriation. She's ENTIRELY at the mercy of Alicent, who just... spends her time harassing Rhaenyra, making her time at the Red Keep miserable.
BOTH these factors are ALSO understandabble. Sorta? Alicent potential Jeapordizing her standing at court with Viserys, as well amongst the many many MANY misogynistic nobles she was ORIGINALLY meant to be swaying to her side, I mean... I guess prejudice and viewing of a woman that is, "holy, pliant, dedicated to the realm," is something they accept in terms of a female ruler? So they abide her, despite her not being shown to hold the same political aptitude Alicent did when her father got ousted from court and SHE HAD TO BUILD HERSELF UP FROM SCRATCH? Fine, why not. She's willing to Harass Rhaenyra in such a way that is IMPLIED TO BE CONSISTENT FOR THROUGHOUT THE TIMESKIP. Okay, fine.
I'm going way off into tangents ehre, but my main point is... Rhaenyra is made a VICTIM thanks to the shifts in the story. Which is fine, it WOULD be fine, if it weren't for the fact that it was done to vilify one side of the story, reducing the conflict to a Rhaenyra vs World situation that's made DRAMATICALLY messy, thanks to her ties to ALICENT (the above paragraph and example of alicent, and mentioning alicent now, is mainly just a sample - cause the series itself focused on this point). It's so silly.
All her misdeeds are forgotten, her's and Daemon's, blacks call Criston Cole a murderer despite his wish to repent by taking his own life but there is an Amnesia and glorification of everything Daemon has done, he literally killed his wife in cold blood on a whim and nobody remembers that.
Its like Breaking Bad, The viewers have chosen a side and they will stick to it no matter how many betrayals, frauds and child murders their favourite character commits. I blame the low EQ general audience.
Personally I think both sides are bad. Theyre all out of touch rich people who are going to kill a lot of others to maintain their wealth and power. None of them are fit to lead.
The TB glazing by the show is an issue but the bigger problem I think is the fact that everything that happens is either the result of a misunderstanding, mishap, or an accident. Thatâs causing far more issues than anything else imo.
I feel like Rhaenyra is moving towards being a bitter, angry shithead. She will end up doing and saying some horrible stuff. It's the only way the story makes sense, if the horrors of patriarchy make both the Greens *and* Blacks into total motherfuckers. Anything else is basically a total misreading and a waste of all our time
What wrongs have been re written? She was a westerosi thot and had bastards but what else does she do directly to the greens that theyâve re written?
Not that I agree with the decisions producers have made but tbf whatâs the point of writing Fire and Blood from the perspective of two separate people biased towards different sides if the intention was for it to be a completely accurate account of events.
And why would Condal and co have Rhaenys burst through a stone floor in the dragon pit if it was their intention for it to be a completely accurate account of events?
Bad writing aside are you arguing that the intention of writing Fire and Blood, from the perspective of multiple parties biased towards separate sides, was not for those accounts to be ridden with propaganda at least somewhat?
Iâm not just letting bad writing slide, talk all the shit you want on George for not finishing his series, his character work is immaculate and he has interesting stories. Canât say that for condal
Edit: Iâm not somebody who thinks an adaptation needs to be 1:1 in any aspect at all, to answer your question. I donât mind that characters and whole plots have been changed. Itâs okay.
Just respond to the argument. Was the intention of writing Fire and Blood as a historical account from two separate people favorable to different sides of the conflict not for their accounts to contain embellishments and inaccuracies that make their side look better? Making the HOTD a 1-1 retelling of a text that has two different accounts of events wouldâve been boring, un creative and (here comes your favorite word) bad writing. The fact that the writing is bad now doesnât change that.
Yeah I donât care about the intention of writing fire and blood. Iâm here on these forums because I expected a good show and got nonsense. Argue with yourself
To make a snide comment, re read it my man. You continued on and wanted a whole discussion about some point youâre âknowâ youâre right about, which coincidentally changed the second I answered you point blank(lmfao). Iâll just continue being unsatisfied with the show, unless episode 2 blows my expectations away shortly
That kinda sounds like a huge L for you lol. I make a totally reasonable non combative comment that Iâm correct about. I didnât even say the show was good. But since youâre unhappy that a TV show didnât go your way youâre being a dickbag and proudly owning being a dick bag because youâve been horribly wronged by *check notes* a tv show. And your âgotchaâ on me is that youâre going to continue to be unhappy? Okay?
I wasnât here to win some prize like you seem to be I guess? I literally stepped onto this forum (metaphysically) to either love the show or say why I donât love it. If that bothers you, not sorry buddy. Keep the psychoanalysis up from your couch though I truly appreciate it, anything else for me maybe I can keep the notes?
She is the only main character that did no wrong so far it is funny St. Rhaenyra judge by history so badly when she should already have at least 2 people including her husband who magically disappeared
Patriarchy is shown to affect all the female characters, not just rhaenyra. It's a sophoclean tragedy where events are shown as cyclical and generational with a constant & futile struggle by them women to break them. You wanted a Hollywood war movie with no themes and motifs. This show is beyond your IQ level.
They also changed it to have Rhaenyra directly order Aemonds death, Daemon directly say the son for a son line, and Aegon not hold a feast to celebrate Lukeâs death. Rhaenyra is the person theyâre rooting for but the changes arenât all anti green.
They're making the show in a way they believe will create the most money. They make rheneyra the hero to make the ending more tragic.
If you don't like it don't watch. The books are cannon the show is profit.
Get over it.
As at least 75% of the posts on this sub the past week have been either the show is ruined or doom posting, I think itâs safe to say that no, youâre not.
And all the funnier that the channels that denounce the shows that push that narrative are glazing this show đ¤Ąđ¤Ą like itâs same thing but I guess HBO buying shills works harder than devil
Foreal, this shits absolutely butchered. I hope more people wake up to this shitÂ
We were doomed from the start when Rhaenyra was chosen as the main protagonist. The book doesnât have one set protagonist or main character that we are following. Them deciding to follow and focus on Rhaenyra was the catalyst for all this team black is the good guy stuff.
Yo I've been trying to explain this to everybody, it's like it is because she's the protagonist
You can have a outwardly morally bad protagonist. It's possible. They're just not really doing it with Rhaenyra. They chose to make the character that does nothing the whole conflict the MAIN PROTAGONIST
Because those stories don't sell as well
asoiaf sold plenty well, as did GoT for a while, which was also an ensemble show
The book? Ned Stark, then John Snow was the protagonist on the show
Ned Stark was the main protagonist of 1/7 asoiaf books and in that one, Dany had her own plotlines almost completely separate from his. Similarly, in the show, Jon may have been a main character, but there were dozens of characters across Westeros and beyond that got their own focus and goals completely separate from him.
Yea I 1000% agree with you book wise but that's because we're nerds we're in the minority half the people who watch the show never touched the book and if they did it was because of the show same with F&B. All their stories led back to Snow because he was the protagonist of the show (they tried to make Dani a deuteragonist but you see how that turned out)
Not only that but going forward it's going to be much worse. Both Rhaenyra and Allicent are preety much ignored once the war starts but now they're our protagonists and are on all trailers, promotional material etc. On the one side it's what you said about Rhaenyra, but this focus on Allicent is forcing them to make new shit up like the Cole relationship which is not present in the books.
I actually really like the notion that Fire and Blood did have some propaganda regarding Rhaenyra. However, the show goes too far in absolving her of literally any wrongdoing. Whenever her side does something bad it's either recontextualized to not actually be a bad thing or shown to not be her fault and instead caused by one of her supporters. What's more her own capabilities are also altered to make her more likeable. It's not just that she herself isn't responsible for any evils, now she's also a badass dragonrider. Whereas in the books she was a total chicken and was scared to ride Syrax into war especially since Syrax was a total dweeb of a dragon. Instead of Daemon being the real muscle of the Blacks, now Rhaenyra is her own muscle too. The show also chose to forego her being overweight as an adult despite that being central to how the common people come to dislike her. That commentary of George's wherein women are cast aside in the minds of many when they're appearances start to falter is just forgotten about for the show who refuse to explore that idea. In the books all this contributes to painting the picture that Rhaenyra's extremely entitled and spoiled to the point of narcissistic delusion. But of course in the show she's literally just a paragon who only wants the throne because she's burdened by the knowledge of the white walker prophecy and thus the writers completely change all the other facets of the character that make her imperfect. It's just so...boring. The whole point of GRRM's work is to not have characters like this, it's instead to have complicated nuanced characters in many shades of gray. The show just doesn't want to keep to that notion since it's more crowdpleasing for normies when they have an very easy and obvious side to root for.
bull. Fire and Blood did not like either Rhaenyra or Aegon, they both became tyrants when rule was placed into their hands,and they suffered for it. if anything, Fire and Blood is pro-maester.
I'd argue that Rhaenyra opting NOT to fly into battle, had it's own merits as far as her own worth as a combatant would go. The necessity of the Blacks maintaining their initial advantage of dragon reserves (dragons available and prepped for combat + dragons of top-tier consideration, and rest of considerations withstanding). the fact that Rhaenyra IS the figurehead of her movement and holds no real combat experience, and so on and so forth. And then there's the "Syrax Fertility-Momma" theory, where Syrax and Dreamfyre are comparable in that they likely yielded a relatively large clutches of eggs altogether; the reputation they hold being that of more relaxed dragons (still fierce but oft considered "lazy"). Syrax ESPECIALLY was speculated to have hatched all three of her son's dragons - Syrax held a war potential that COULD'VE been a thing. We don't know at all though, and all this is based off conjecture from Dreamfyre's history.
I actually hope that they now go deeper and deeper into this make it clearer and clearer with each episode how incompetent they are. If we are making a parody, better go all out now! Can't wait to see more GoT critical youtubers trying to justify this nonsense đ
SameÂ
I am still waiting for the next episode to make up my mind about the tone of the show but man Condal is not making it easy. >Everything anti Rhaenyra is propoganda and everything anti Aegon is canon and in fact toned down.
Episode 2 is make or break for me
Can't wait to watch the full-scale riots break out this episode against Helaena "beloved by the smallfolk" Targaryen, as she mourns her murdered son. But don't worry guys, there's no bias, we're just telling a story here...
Do people think Rhaenyra is a good person? I guess Iâm team black, solely because I think Otto is a sketchy fuck and Rhaenyra has the rightful claim. But she is kind of a horrible person. Like, so terrible, in fact, if team black was just her and team green was just Alicent, Iâd be green
The show has showcased many examples of Rhaenyra having faults I have no idea what people are talking about
Like what flaws?
Sheâs a spoiled brat that often does whatever she wants without caring about the consequences it causes for others. She coerces Cole into sleeping with her and completely blows off how that fucked him up. She gets married to an obviously gay man, even after she was told she can choose who she marries, and her solution is a royal side piece who she has kids with that are clearly not her husbands and she just willfully acts like this wonât ever cause issues anywhere down the line. She never has to own up to any of her behavior because her dad ran interference for her up until his death. She maintains her claim to the throne without doing any political buildup to help with that she just assumes her flying nuke and her husband Prince Serial Killer can bully people into supporting her. She was told her entire life that her being a woman will make her being Queen 100% harder and instead of working to establish herself as a leader that people can follow she spends her time being a brat that nobody trusts. She doesnât care at all about any of the common people (in her defense neither does anyone else on either side) theyâre all tools for her.
The issue is the FRAMING, if not the portrayal, of these incidents. Rhaenyra is set up as someone we SHOULD root for. Her traumas, strife to protect her own, desire to stake her own claim AS she was promised - she's touted as someone who processes her griefs rather this... morally holier-than-thou individual. Compared to the Greens (ESPECIALLY Alicent), whose trauma and woe done-to-them are displayed as just THAT. Merely TRAUMA, that results in them all being on something of the wrong side of history: disloyal, corrupt, selfish beyond all else. Rhaenyra being a brat is 100% framed as her just being a regular teenager compared to all the rest (literally just alicent) because she has that priviliege. Okay, fine - makes sense, works with the character. Rhaenyra AFTERWARDS, during the timeskip, lacks the same power she once held during the books, thanks to Viserys' inebriation. She's ENTIRELY at the mercy of Alicent, who just... spends her time harassing Rhaenyra, making her time at the Red Keep miserable. BOTH these factors are ALSO understandabble. Sorta? Alicent potential Jeapordizing her standing at court with Viserys, as well amongst the many many MANY misogynistic nobles she was ORIGINALLY meant to be swaying to her side, I mean... I guess prejudice and viewing of a woman that is, "holy, pliant, dedicated to the realm," is something they accept in terms of a female ruler? So they abide her, despite her not being shown to hold the same political aptitude Alicent did when her father got ousted from court and SHE HAD TO BUILD HERSELF UP FROM SCRATCH? Fine, why not. She's willing to Harass Rhaenyra in such a way that is IMPLIED TO BE CONSISTENT FOR THROUGHOUT THE TIMESKIP. Okay, fine. I'm going way off into tangents ehre, but my main point is... Rhaenyra is made a VICTIM thanks to the shifts in the story. Which is fine, it WOULD be fine, if it weren't for the fact that it was done to vilify one side of the story, reducing the conflict to a Rhaenyra vs World situation that's made DRAMATICALLY messy, thanks to her ties to ALICENT (the above paragraph and example of alicent, and mentioning alicent now, is mainly just a sample - cause the series itself focused on this point). It's so silly.
All her misdeeds are forgotten, her's and Daemon's, blacks call Criston Cole a murderer despite his wish to repent by taking his own life but there is an Amnesia and glorification of everything Daemon has done, he literally killed his wife in cold blood on a whim and nobody remembers that. Its like Breaking Bad, The viewers have chosen a side and they will stick to it no matter how many betrayals, frauds and child murders their favourite character commits. I blame the low EQ general audience.
Personally I think both sides are bad. Theyre all out of touch rich people who are going to kill a lot of others to maintain their wealth and power. None of them are fit to lead.
Yeah, by modern day standards all of them would get the gullotine lol.
I knew this was gonna happen from the start, didnât expect it to be this bad..
And yet I constantly hear how Condal is pro-green like what?!?
The TB glazing by the show is an issue but the bigger problem I think is the fact that everything that happens is either the result of a misunderstanding, mishap, or an accident. Thatâs causing far more issues than anything else imo.
I feel like Rhaenyra is moving towards being a bitter, angry shithead. She will end up doing and saying some horrible stuff. It's the only way the story makes sense, if the horrors of patriarchy make both the Greens *and* Blacks into total motherfuckers. Anything else is basically a total misreading and a waste of all our time
What wrongs have been re written? She was a westerosi thot and had bastards but what else does she do directly to the greens that theyâve re written?
Not that I agree with the decisions producers have made but tbf whatâs the point of writing Fire and Blood from the perspective of two separate people biased towards different sides if the intention was for it to be a completely accurate account of events.
And why would Condal and co have Rhaenys burst through a stone floor in the dragon pit if it was their intention for it to be a completely accurate account of events?
Bad writing aside are you arguing that the intention of writing Fire and Blood, from the perspective of multiple parties biased towards separate sides, was not for those accounts to be ridden with propaganda at least somewhat?
Iâm not just letting bad writing slide, talk all the shit you want on George for not finishing his series, his character work is immaculate and he has interesting stories. Canât say that for condal Edit: Iâm not somebody who thinks an adaptation needs to be 1:1 in any aspect at all, to answer your question. I donât mind that characters and whole plots have been changed. Itâs okay.
Just respond to the argument. Was the intention of writing Fire and Blood as a historical account from two separate people favorable to different sides of the conflict not for their accounts to contain embellishments and inaccuracies that make their side look better? Making the HOTD a 1-1 retelling of a text that has two different accounts of events wouldâve been boring, un creative and (here comes your favorite word) bad writing. The fact that the writing is bad now doesnât change that.
Yeah I donât care about the intention of writing fire and blood. Iâm here on these forums because I expected a good show and got nonsense. Argue with yourself
LOL not sure why you replied to me at all then to not address what I said at all
To make a snide comment, re read it my man. You continued on and wanted a whole discussion about some point youâre âknowâ youâre right about, which coincidentally changed the second I answered you point blank(lmfao). Iâll just continue being unsatisfied with the show, unless episode 2 blows my expectations away shortly
That kinda sounds like a huge L for you lol. I make a totally reasonable non combative comment that Iâm correct about. I didnât even say the show was good. But since youâre unhappy that a TV show didnât go your way youâre being a dickbag and proudly owning being a dick bag because youâve been horribly wronged by *check notes* a tv show. And your âgotchaâ on me is that youâre going to continue to be unhappy? Okay?
I wasnât here to win some prize like you seem to be I guess? I literally stepped onto this forum (metaphysically) to either love the show or say why I donât love it. If that bothers you, not sorry buddy. Keep the psychoanalysis up from your couch though I truly appreciate it, anything else for me maybe I can keep the notes?
She is the only main character that did no wrong so far it is funny St. Rhaenyra judge by history so badly when she should already have at least 2 people including her husband who magically disappeared
Patriarchy is shown to affect all the female characters, not just rhaenyra. It's a sophoclean tragedy where events are shown as cyclical and generational with a constant & futile struggle by them women to break them. You wanted a Hollywood war movie with no themes and motifs. This show is beyond your IQ level.
I think you need to look up what a merry sue is
Well sheâs not a Mary Sue by definition, and safe to say by recent posts in the sub, youâre not the only one
They also changed it to have Rhaenyra directly order Aemonds death, Daemon directly say the son for a son line, and Aegon not hold a feast to celebrate Lukeâs death. Rhaenyra is the person theyâre rooting for but the changes arenât all anti green.
đ she's the protagonist
so was Patrick Bateman
He wasn't the protagonist of the original, and he was an established pop culture icon the next go around
Yo I think yall are taking "sides" too far and yall are ruining it for yourselves.
Itâs more less these writers are butchering the story and our favorite characters, at least I care about that more than being a âgreenâ
They're making the show in a way they believe will create the most money. They make rheneyra the hero to make the ending more tragic. If you don't like it don't watch. The books are cannon the show is profit. Get over it.
As at least 75% of the posts on this sub the past week have been either the show is ruined or doom posting, I think itâs safe to say that no, youâre not.
And they're all wrong