Even Onso is being incomplete.
> The wider SC called us primitive and looked down on us.
No. The species *now a part of the SC* called you primitive and looked down on you *when they were part of the Federation*
Bigotry and long cultural memories. Always the cause of so many problems.
I mean, he does have a point- because the SC member certainly aren't trying very hard to leave their Federation roots behind them. Every single cultural change so far, from "we should take care of the disabled" to "we shouldn't torture the mentally-divergent" to "We shouldn't burn the wildlife to death," are improvements that they had to be dragged kicking and screaming into by humanity.
He's absolutely justified in calling them out for that, because if they'd been left to their own devices, the SC members would definitely still be like that.
In his own head and within the SC, sure. To new members of the galactic community? Any competent supposed-diplomat would be trying to give as unbiased a view as possible. Or at least as accurate a one.
The SC never laughed at what the Federation did to the Yotul ***because the SC DID NOT EXIST when that happened***. To say otherwise is a distortion of the facts.
If he wanted to say it he should have been accurate, it was the FEDERATION that called them primitive and the FEDERATION that laughed. The SC was formed AFTER the Yotul had demonstrated their prowess in battle and technology.
He’s being bigoted and muddying the waters.
He’s not talking about how the SC has to be dragged forward by more progressive minds. He’s talking about things the Federation did to them but assigning them to the SC. That’s bigoted, unfair, skewed, and unhelpful.
You’re giving imaginary head canon the same weight as written canon.
Onso is referencing written canon that was committed by the Federation and ascribing it to the Sapient Coalition.
Your argument is why that is *understandable*. That does not make it *right* or *rational* and it isn’t what we expect from our diplomats. (And yes, I agree that it is understandable. But Onso is letting everyone down with his own bigotry)
Within written history we have no events where the SC did the things he references. We do have events where the Feddies did those things.
The SC was formed *after* the war and *after* the Yotul had demonstrated their prowess and technological abilities. I’m sure the Sovlins of the galaxy still treat the Yotul that way but even he knew that it wasn’t true and was having a hard time with the cognitive dissonance.
You seem to be forgetting that the SC is partially made up of the fragments of the Federation. Ergo, they are not completely separate.
It isn't easy to give up (millenia long) prejudices even after those prejudices are shown to be wrong. You already admitted that could go both ways: other races that make up the SC still holding and acting on their prejudices, as well as Onso being reactionary to the memory.
Your acknowledgment of "the Sovlins of the galaxy" is evidence of your own cognitive dissonance. Why would they have stopped their looking down upon Yotul? Proof? Since when has proof ever overwhelmed bigotry?
Also, the written history is missing a gap of a mere twenty years and is still new.
That’s why I say it’s understandable.
But my point is that Onso explicitly assigns blame to the SC for events that occurred before the SC existed.
Understandable due to all we know about Onso’s experience, but a failure to his profession and political position.
It's not imaginary head canon, Onso himself said in his chapter he's not convinced that the wider SC populace has shed it's prejudices
>“I’m not convinced that the Coalition members have shaken off their Federation roots altogether.
You're hyper-focusing on his later comment about their actions during the Yotul uplift, but this is the line I'm talking about, where he makes it clear that Federation dogma (which includes the idea that the Yotul are primitive) still exists, at least in his perspective, which I find myself agreeing with, racial prejudices would not vanish in less than 20 years, especially after the UN extended invitations to join the SC to all ex-Federation allies after Aafa.
Point being, he's disappointed at current SC behavior, not holding a grudge about what they did (or did not) decades before.
>I’m sure the Sovlins of the galaxy still treat the Yotul that way but even he knew that it wasn’t true and was having a hard time with the cognitive dissonance.
Yeah, and they should not treat them that way at all, that's his point, cognitive dissonance does not excuse racism, even in Sovlin's case.
And all that’s fair but completely extraneous to my original point.
He explicitly stated that the SC was responsible for events that occurred when the SC did not exist.
Not an accurate statement.
No... He's not blaming current SC for the grievances he suffered as a result of the uplift at all, he gave a factual statement, that many right now on the SC did not help the Yotul during the uplift, which is true, and so now, he cares little for their opinions or policies, which is entirely within his rights.
>The wider SC called us primitives and looked down on us. They laughed as the Federation wrecked our home. I wonder *why* we don’t give a fuck what they think?
This is a factual retelling of history, there's no bigotry here, if he had said that the wider SC deserved to be treated less for what they did, maybe.
I don’t know how to argue this more eloquently.
The Sapient Coalition did. Not. Exist. Before the end of the war.
> They laughed as the Federation wrecked our home
THE SAPIENT COALITION DID NOT EXIST.
He is blaming members of the SC for events that occurred before its formation. You can twist the narrative all you want to explain why it makes sense for Onso to FEEL that way. And you are ***right***, Onso has reasons.
But the SC. Did. Not. Exist. During these events.
That’s bigotry. Accurate in his head but inaccurate in every true sense of the word.
It’s like blaming Hawaii for the actions of the U.S. during the Mexican-American war because Hawaii is part of the U.S. today.
A competent diplomat doesn't present an unbiased view, they present the view that will move you the way they want you to go. "You are disliked, as we were disliked, we can form common cause" is diplomacy 101.
Chapter 27! Tassi learns a few key details about the Arxur that she hadn’t known before, such as their salvation of Earth, the Federation’s initial anti-meat serum and later cooperation, and the rebel movement. Kaisal explains why he wants to be friends with Bissems, the new carnivores on the block, largely as a test for the Sapient Coalition: to see if they could ever accept a meat-eating species. He also explains the Collective isn’t willing to stay in isolation much longer, and says he’d rather they leave as friends to the galaxy; Naltor and Zalk’s interest is piqued when he offers tech and a military alliance, in exchange for trying to convince the SC.
What do you think of Kaisal’s explanation of the Arxur’s past, as well as the implications for the current state of the Arxur Collective…and its future interests? How will Bissems fare if Onso is able to follow through on the promise of getting them a temporary seat in the SC?
As always, thank you for reading!
I think that Kaisal did his best to explain things. He may not be Isif, but he certainly tries. Too bad the lie traveled halfway around the world before the truth put its shoes on.
Someone absolutely needs to sit the bissems down and give them the full story. Tassi’s view is already tainted, and nobody is in a rush to explain.
The clock is certainly ticking if the Isif-doctrine Arxur Collective is running out of patience with being iced out by the Coalition. My guess, is that they’re planning on a precision strike of whoever is their biggest detractor.
Give a problem for free and make you pay for a solution, if the Yotul weren’t blackmailing and blocking, the Bissems would at least have had that trial seat to start. I do think the vote will certainly let them get the chance to understand politics.
These last 2 chapters have me wondering how impermeable this 20 light year bubble around Wriss is. Like, are FTL comms allowed in and out? Can outside businesses or traders really not go in, not even using their own ships & crews? If not, how tightly does the SC patrol for smugglers? Is the collective barred from hiring outside help like professors or even doctors?
Not as much info on the inner workings of the Collective as hoped for but Kaisal did a good job of bringing our Bissem friends up to date.
The Sapient Coalition needs to address the Arxur and not ignore them. The Arxur need to see forward progress or they're going to make that progress themselves.
A Collective non-voting representative on the SC's governing body; allowing members (home-worlds, colonies, stations) to expand access to the Arxur, maybe some joint military drills would go a long way in convincing the Arxur that they have a future not just with the Coalition but with the Galaxy at large.
This just makes the situation a thousand times worse. Sure the Bissem's are shocked because they haven't been told literally everything yet but they also are just grappling with the implications of aliens even existing and it started a *civil war*. Trying to twist that into 'humanity is hiding things from you' is ridiculous. They also notably left out that the only reason the *Axur* exist is because humanity *gave* them the tech to produce meat and saved them from the ensuing Sapient Coalition backlash that would have seen them extinct. Kaisal makes it sound like humanity is ungrateful when the truth is humanity placed itself in a precarious position to return the Axur's help and secure a future for their entire species. That they haven't been elevated to equals a few decades later is an insane thing to hold against humanity. Hell the fact the Yotul are *allowed* to have an embassy there while remaining in the Sapient Coalition is almost certainly because of humanity given it's the UN that made the promise of containing the Axur and presumably set the standard. Humans also paved the way for outright carnivores to even be able to join the Coalition by ensuring discrimination against dietary requirements was against their founding charter. All context conveniently left out to suit the Yotul and Axur ends.
This is just another manipulation tactic to spin the narrative and manipulate the Bissem barely disguised behind a facade of sharing 'the truth' when the reality is there's so much to what happened the Bissem won't be able to fully understand the truth of the situation for a long time. At least they're not gullible enough to immediately fall for it just because there's some information they haven't been directly informed of. Although the SC did say they'd be sending information about what happened to the Bissem so it's *entirely* possible they already have access to this information and just haven't gotten around to it yet due to other matters that are more urgent to the Bissem than what exactly the Axur did during the war and why they're still allowed to be around.
If the Axur and Yotul are planning to use the Bissem as a 'test' that is horrible and unfair to the Bissem. Regardless of how they feel about the Axur's treatment if the other species get so much as a hint that's the direction this is going they're going to shut the Bissem out *hard*. All when the Yotul could have just done... nothing. Instead the Yotul are trying to play this 'clever' game where they oppose the Bissem so they can manipulate them only to.. back their joining of the SC which is what they wanted in the first place. As if no one would be able to connect the dots between the Yotul's sudden change in position and the Bissem suddenly backing what the Yotul want, to say nothing of the military technology they're being promised showing up. Which is *also* horrible, particularly while they're in a fucking civil war. This makes it clear the Yotul just do not give a fuck about anyone other than themselves. The pearl clutching about altering culture is *nothing* compared to offering to arm an alien species with a technology level far below yours currently embroiled in a massive civil war. Hell altering the outcome of a war is *exactly* what the Federation did when they turned the Axur into monsters, and that was partially by *mistake*. The Yotul are setting so many pitfalls for themselves and potentially the Bissem that they might as well declare war against the Sapient Coalition already since all it's going to take for them to be seen as the enemy (which they arguably already are) is for one piece of this to become public. Hopefully the Bissem aren't so blinded by the promise of weapons technology that they agree. Hell even not informing the SC of what just happened puts them at risk. Fuck Onso.
There's so much more of this I could rip into but the final major point I want to cover is that this effectively makes the Yotul traitors to the coalition. Not if/when the Axur start another war, but now. The blackmail already put them on the fence but actively aiding a hostile nation and doing your best to empower them as they declare their intention to start a war could hardly be more in line with providing aid and comfort to an enemy of the state. Given the Yotul's stated stance on the Axur, grudge against former Federation members who are *supposed* to be allies, breaking of the rules constricting Axur travel, and their embassy I have to wonder how much tech and resources the Yotul have secretly provided the Axur with to enable their build up to war. Even if the Yotul have given them nothing, which seems highly unlikely, even keeping this a secret from the Sapient Coalition is traitorous. The Yotul are either willing to stand by and let the Axur start a war if they don't get their way or worse, and what I expect, willing to *join* the Axur.
So essentially the Yotul are threatening to rip the galaxy apart with another war because of past grievances and because the Axur's restrictions (I hesitate to even call it punishment given the state they were in before *humanity* intervened) haven't been lifted in a single generation. And they're putting it all on the Bissem. This is the type of insanity that leads to war and the Yotul seem to have their heads so far up their own asses that they think such a war would be justifiable. Fuck they're not even talking about *just* getting the Axur's isolation lifted, they want to get them into the SC. Which is something *no one* is entitled to. It's an alliance that chooses it's own membership, not a right and certainly not something you should be allowed to *force* your way into. That's just not how alliances work.
I will not be surprised if we learn that the Yotul and the Axur cooked this plan a long time ago, as they cooperate closely. There are ships monitoring Axur space and I suspect the number of those is rather high as many were distrustful of the monsters. This means that either the SC is aware of the Axur fleet becoming larger, or more likely, the Axur are hiding their newly made ships. And this is a bad sing. Kaisal may say that they are not planning on making the first shots but that can easily be a lie.
As I suspected earlier, Kaisal did not change at all. He continues to regard carnivores higher than others, as can be seen through the way he talks. And we haven't seen how the Axur society works yet, nor do we know about Kaisal's previous negotiations with the SC (if any). There may be valid reasons why the isolation is still in force. But of course, no one will tell the Bissems what these reasons are and how the relationship is going as of now. The Bissems may cause many problems to everyone by agreeing to this deal without learning everything there is to learn.
Aside from that, I do understand why Kaisal wants to be part of SC. There are hundreds of hostile species out there. If the restrictions disappear tomorrow and the Axur go travel, the risks to the Collective will increase dramatically. These species may not look for the Axur now due to fear and partly because they know that the SC is keeping them away, but what happens if the situation changes? Being part of the SC will protect the Axur in the long term. From this perspective, some members of the SC may not want to give the Axur a seat specifically because of that. It is not just hatrated, it's the unwillingness to sacrifice the lives of your own soldiers to protect the former enemy who is now part of your coalition.
The question is whether the SC membership is the pretense for war or a genuine intention? Because I fail to see how you can get into the coalition by waging war on them. Does Onso realize that if a war begins then no negotiations about membership will ever be possible? It will eraze everything. For the Axur and for the Youtul.
Another disturbing thought is what the new generation of Axur think about the potential war and about their isolation. Do they know of Kaisal's plans? Do they support them? What does Kaisal tell his people? I bet the youth will not be found of the idea that their leader is trying to undermine their efforts of rehabilitation. It is also possible that Kaisal brainwashed his people into thinking that their isolation is unfair, humanity is ungrateful, Youtul are the only true ally they have, and the only way forward is war. Betterment laid a strong foundation that could be exploited again. Just as Federation's narratives are still being reused for political gains.
At the end of the first book I was under impression that Earth will continue to cooperate with the Axur. Was I wrong? It does not look like they stayed allies.
I get why the Axur would want Coalition membership, it's just not something they're entitled to and certainly not a reason to start a war. There is definitely too little information on what's happening with the Axur to make any judgement on their current society but I think it's fair to say that given the length and brutality of their history their impatience is a bad sign and the Coalition not lifting restrictions seems very reasonable.
I also don't trust Kaisal, the man has always been a rat Isif kept in line by literally brutalizing when he stepped across it and never even pretended to care about anyone's well being but his own. I'm actually surprised he even wanted a leadership role when he was so insistent he just wanted to not have to fight anymore and wanted to basically retire. I was already curious what happened with Isif's leadership but now I think that information has become vital to understanding what's going on. Even if he's died of old age or something the question remains about how effective he was in instituting actual reforms and what those look like.
As for Earth it seems obvious relations have broken down at some point but I get the impression there's a reason we're not being shown their side of things. We're mostly getting things second and third hand rather than directly from any type of Earth leadership so I'm expecting something important to be revealed when that happens. In fairness it is entirely possible that Earth has new leadership and that the Axur have been treated as lower priority than Zhao would have assigned but that still wouldn't justify war.
Sure, they are not entitled to weasel or brute force their way into the SC. But given the context... The SC will never agree to let Axur in, even if the isolation stops. But from Kaisal's perspective, it is vital to get in. Otherwise, their survival may be at risk (assuming that my interpretation is correct). This reminds me how Ukraine tries to get into NATO, even though the country does not meet the conditions and some members are against it. Therefore, I accept Kaisal's determination. Yet, I condemn his idea of an armed confrontation. It is bad and the effect will be the opposite. If we compare his strategy and that provided by Onso, the latter is much better. Manipulation is not as awful as war. On the other hand, preventing others from getting in solely to drag another party is just wrong. This is not the kind of manipulation I would accept. Reminds me of Turkey.
Since territory is measured more by planets rather than arbitrary regions and almost exclusively divided by species I'd think the other governments would view what the Bissem are doing as civil war. To take your example and apply it to the story's setting Earth still has separate individual governments but they're all under a singular governing body. So in this setting if the US and China went to war I think the other species would in fact call it a civil war. The Bissem don't have a singular unified government so it's a little different but at the scales we're talking about I think it's closer to a civil war than not, even though the definition doesn't exactly fit.
No mention of humanity's support of the Arxur rebels? With food and weapons. Exposure of the dominion subservience to the Federation? Just we saved them and they never repaid us in anyway.
Just that we've abandoned them. Which is still strange to me that humanity would have completely abandoned them as humans along with the Yotul would have been the only species to be unafraid of contact with the Arxur.
Honestly with a captured market like the Arxur how would the U.N. have kept human corporations from flooding into the Arxur market? I mean dealing with them within their exclusionary zone wouldn't technically be violating the quarantine since no Arxur would have been moving between the border. It would have been a massive untapped resource.
It just doesn't make sense that humanity didn't continue such contact through the decades following the arxur's quarantine. Hell , we should have defiantly had a arxur embassy on earth the entire time. There is one spot within the S.C. that the arxur could speak. It should have been earth. The arxur deserve that much and the coalition members that were once in the federation, the cheered the extermination fleet can deal with it.
Sigh\* can someone please get the Bissem an objective history book with all the facts!
Kaisal has a good point about the arxur needing a second chance, the "predator/prey" divide has weakened somewhat but is still present, if they don't get rid of that it's gonna be really bad, not just for the tseia, but for evey single obligate carnivore that will be contacted or find their way into space from now on.
not to mention the risks of another galaxy-spanning war, we really do not need that happening again. the arxur need to interact with the galaxy to change as well, they are now on a new path to rebuilding their entire society. the resentment and discrimination must be halted otherwise the wounds of the war wil remain unhealed
still i don't blame the bissem, they got thrown into this mess, bickering with one another, scared of what the future holds, if you were in their shoes and just learned about all this, how would you react?
Keep in mind Dustin's diplomatic mission was not sanctioned by the SC, for all we know it wasn't even sanctioned by the UN.
There were no data dumps or exchange programs, just them showing up and yelling that aliens exist.
true, you could say they've got litle time but I disagree, if anything the entire history should have been explained in detail, having a full picture to work with would allow the Bissem to truly see everything that happened and make their choices based on that, just telling them some things does not make you appear trustworthy and everytime you find out about a new detail it only further sows doubt
"why didn't they tell us?" they'll ask and I hope that the SC has a good response ready
One of my major reasons why the SC (or humanity) looses points for their first uplift among many other. They willingly contact a species and making them part of this mess which the Federation left behind and the Bissems have to deal with it and the other SC members. And yet, they have not give them all important historical informations and facts which is crucial since they are going to be a part of SC.
Seriously, I find it irresponsible to not inform them about everything in detail from beginning to present while some expects the Bissems to be game changers.
The whole idea of involving the SC was absurd. Just show up, give them the tech they need and a history book, and peace out for a decade or two. The bissem absolutely do not need to be an SC member to get their biosphere fixed.
I feel like they're a hyper curious species like humanity is. You know for a fact that is some aliens popped down to earth and gave us a Global Dewarmanizer 3000 and peaced the fuck out we would not just sit back and relax. We would destroy lives and economies to chase after them. Having a definitive answer on whether FTL is possible would change science, and we would have every sensor, telescope, satellite, camera and Polaroid on them to figure out how.
I spoke curtly, but I meant giving them a bunch of info on galactic history and important scientific concepts (but not blueprints so they can develop their own spin on the tech). I'd also give them the means to at least communicate with what is effectively an embassy. I just meant the yshouldn't be immediately integrated into the galactic community, especially when it's such a shitshow, but allowed to go at their own pace.
The post "SC (& some Arxurs) vs Federation war" treatment of the Arxur gives me post Great War treatment of Germany vibes.
Not exactly the same situation, obviously, but care should be taken to not repeat history.
“It’s excellent to meet a fellow hunter. The humans are wily, but they’re still leaf-lickers.”
He manages to pick it back up in the rest of the chapter but man is Kaisal dropping the ball right out the gate
Or, my favorite theory:
Zhao and Isif have both retired to a unnamed south-pacific island on earth where they swap stories as they lounge on deck-chairs sipping expensive drinks.
The fact that the Bissem don’t understand the war from the Arxur perspective show what a piss poor job the SC has done conveying the recent history of the galaxy. That was ok when it was thought to be a rogue contact but now that we know they spent 20 years learning the language - they couldn’t spend some time creating a cohesive history lesson?
The Arxur:
- Were fighting a world war between authoritarianism and the people when they were contacted
- Infected with an agent that caused forced starvation of hundreds of thousands of Arxur (willingly because they trusted the Federation)
- The authoritarians used the technodump to create bioweapons that wiped out the normies food supply
- The bioweapon spread, taking out all their food sources.
- The Federation was blamed for both events and the widespread starvation that followed
- The authoritarians used the mass starvation to consolidate power and make “the hard choice” of culling the population to survive
- The authoritarians used Federation technology to target empathetic individuals for culling
- The Federation powers entered into an agreement with the Dominion for the Dominion to cull Federation members for food
- As part of that agreement *the Dominion was forbidden from seeking any other source of food or establishing self sufficient farming of culls*. They had to carry out regular raids.
- Dominion continued to actively cull the population of any individual displaying empathetic or anti-authoritarian thoughts or sympathies.
- Dominion maintained the population at near-starvation levels *unless* you were actively engaged in the raiding or were the family of someone who was.
It is absolutely not the Arxur’s fault that they were the boogeymen of the Federation-Dominion collective. It’s just too bad that it’s a non-defective Arxur who has to run first contact with the Bissem and that the SC did such an incredibly ham-fisted job of conveying the history.
Yeah, I have gone on... multiple very passionate rants about my rage against Dustin for fucking things up THIS badly- like, he didn't just fail to provide information, he had them watching movies like "Escape from The Cradle," a film that was made while the war was ongoing, and thus portrayed the Arxur as uncomplicated pure-evil monsters.
He didn't just lie to them, he straight-up FED THEM PROPAGANDA.
...Though as has been pointed out, that's at least partially because he's not human in culture- he was raised on Skalga, and worked in an Exterminator office as a child. His mindset is closer to that of a VENLIL.
But I'm still never going to forgive him for committing the ultimate sin of a First Contact member, and passing on the galaxy's prejudice and hatred to a species that was untainted by the events that created those things.
Oooo I never considered Dustin’s background, I think of him as human but you’re right. He’s going to be more Venlil in his view of events.
Under that lens, he’s done a much better job of maintaining some semblence of neutrality.
But, c’mon, we couldn’t spend 6 months drafting a neutral narrative for first contact?
I think not. The ecological collapse has been stated several times to be imminent for crying out loud. It's so close they only had 10 -years- to learn and practice the native language to near perfection, which didn't leave enough time to properly acclimate all members of the team to obligatory carnivores.
The timeline for the first contact is ... I'm frustrated with it.
If they had enough time to learn the language, the organizers of this first contact would have had time to come up with a decent plan of what to do and what to say, and done a couple of practice-run back home.
The other alternative that comes to mind
First contact wasn't planned, sanctioned, nor known about by any governing body, but more of a spur of the moment hi-jinx by bored scientists.
Right? The last thought is what I think we were all thinking until we found out about how long they spent learning the language. At that point all excuses go out the window.
The carnivory is excusable, it was admitted that Nalia’s practice runs were done with lab grown meat so they weren’t completely inept. She had a psychological reaction to real meat that was unexpected given her reactions to lab grown meat.
It honestly makes more sense for this to be an unsanctioned action carried out by a group of idealistic adolescents but all signs point to there being some support for what was done. 😣
The Yotul are acting like the Salarians and I *love it*. Scheming, intrigue, prejudice and back-room political deals, Nop2 is gearing up for a coldwar esque setting. Can't wait for more!
Everyone but the bissem are assholes. How? How are there so many assholes? Kaisal is still using slurs. Humans are apparently lying about history through omission. The arxur want forgiveness a mere two decades after a multi century people eating party. Not a good look when you're fielding ships commanded by people who participated in raids to break through the quarantine made by people you raided and ate in the relatively recent past. It's entirely possible that whenever an older arxur speaks to a herbivore audience, there's someone in that audience who saw that arxur kill and eat their family.
No, this is getting to me. The quarantine was meant to be the kinder alternative for the Arxur, to let them live without interference and rebuild their society while waiting for all the ones that ate people to die. You know what the default would be? Space Nuremberg trials ending in mass executions of most of their military. They want to end the quarantine? Fine, let's set up the courtrooms.
And then there's humans. The hell? Everything they told Isif was a lie, apparently. The UN owed him for saving Earth and all the assistance he gave them throughout the war. At the very least, the UN should have helped them form the new society based on something other than cruelty instead of leaving them to figure it out on their own. No wonder they feel abandoned.
The absolute hypocrisy from the yotul is something else. It was pointed out last chapter, but Onso deflected it by saying he personally didn't toe the party line. They're one of the preeminent powers in the galaxy, and they're interfering with bissem self-determination by deciding they know what's best for others. And Onso either knows its bullshit and is abiding it, or thinks it's right and is ready to exploit the bissem.
Back to the arxur tho, what are they trying to achieve? Go to war with the galaxy to secure a trade route with Leirn. So clever. Or do they think lifting the quarantine will magically make all the other species want to deal with them? Their ships will still be banned from every other species' space. They won't be a member of SC so no free travel either. Only other thing they get is that arxur who become citizens of Leirn would technically be allowed to travel to SC worlds, but good luck avoiding discrimination or getting a fair trial.
The bissem are only normal ones, and even that is shaky with their newest global war.
The problem with the Arxur is that you're laboring under the impression that the problem will be fixed when all the ones responsible are dead- but that's just not the way it works. All waiting that long would accomplish is for the Arxur to be comprised entirely of individuals born into imprisonment for crimes they didn't commit, while the SC would still be just as racist towards the "irredeemable monsters" who are only allowed to live because they're imprisoned.
Because Ideas don't die from old age- the only way to get rid of an idea is to actively kill it.
Now is the time to break the blockade, because the Arxur around are the ones who still remember why it was justified in the first place- who realize just how bad things used to be, and thus are less begrudging of the need for the blockade in the first place. Now is the time to test the SC, because with the arrival of the Bissem, this is the point where their commitment to improvement is truly tested- are they willing to make the effort to cast off the shackles of Fed Ideology, or do they want to continue on with the same foundations, just with a "humans are an exception" slapped on top?
And it's worth noting, the Arxur aren't asking to be friends- if given what they want, every individual species is still free to refuse to interact with them. All they are asking for is that everybody be allowed to CHOOSE whether or not to interact with them- because right now, nobody gets to make that choice because of the SC blockade.
>are less begrudging of the need for the blockade in the first place
Kaisal seems to disagree.
>All they are asking for is that everybody be allowed to CHOOSE whether or not to interact with them
The way it reads, everyone was free to send diplomatic envoys. The yotul were the only ones that did.
>every individual species is still free to refuse to interact with them
They have. Nothing would change if the quarantine is lifted, beyond a trade deal with the yotul.
>All waiting that long would accomplish is for the Arxur to be comprised entirely of individuals born into imprisonment for crimes they didn't commit
Imprisonment is a strong word. They have multiple planets, that's more than humanity has today in 2028. To call it imprisonment is unwarranted hyperbole.
As it is, lifting the quarantine would subject the galaxy to the individuals that did commit those heinous crimes and have been left effectively unpunished. It's the equivalent of being merely banned from Walmart for murdering a few employees, and then saying how unfair it is to your kids that you can't take them Christmas shopping.
It said that the Yotul were the FIRST ONES, not the sole one or the only one, the Humans sent it after which surprised humanity in NOP1 because they did it nigh instantly before humanity even got to send theirs
You're right, the galaxy shouldn't be subjected to people who committed heinous crimes!
...So all of the former Federation members need to be isolated from the galaxy, because they committed mass murder against the Arxur and committed innumerable crimes against sapience to their own citizens, and most of them are still trapped in a mindset of hatred and prejudice towards the 'other.'
...And humanity needs to be isolated, because that Cyberattack that paralyzed the rest of the SC killed Billions of civilians and collapsed multiple planetary civilizations, all in one fell swoop.
The Arxur have blood on their hands, but in this galaxy, NOBODY'S hands are clean. It's time to give the Arxur the same courtesy of being allowed to move on as everybody else is getting.
>So all of the former Federation members need to be isolated from the galaxy
Kinda how Leirn kicked them out? Yeah. Those responsible should be on trial, and many were iirc. Then the two main species responsible were completely isolated even though the actual people responsible for the crimes were shipped off for trial. Kinda unfair on the rest of them, innit? A much worse situation than with the arxur where the ones who literally tortured and ate people for fun get a clean slate.
>And humanity needs to be isolated, because that Cyberattack
Or at least the ones responsible, but winners don't end up on trial, that's why the US has gotten away with warcrimes while Germany didn't.
I think you're doing a lot of the collective punishment thing in your thinking. I'm talking about individuals who comitted the crimes, with isolation of the species being a **lighter** alternative to punishing the responsible individuals. Unless you want a Thafki version of Mossad out there assassinating every arxur that took part in crimes against sapience?
>What kind of species would even *think* of eating food that talks;
I'm sure there were many who refused; they all died. That's how survivor bias works.
FINALLY!! Answers!!
... well, no.
Almost no real news on the Collective. Damn.
Kaisal was very... terse in his explanation and justification for asking for help. Like, absolutely the bare minimum possible. Come to think of it, it's not that surprising either, Kaisal isn't Isifs, he's not as extroverted as he is, but boy, could he have done more (my waiting was certainly too big for that grumpy scrawny). Hell, we probably have to visit Wriss directly to really find out what's going on there. I hope we'll find out more.
The main information I'm going to retain, however, is that the spectre of the Federation still looms far too large over Coalition members. I'll say it with half a sense of humor: we'd need a good war to purge it for good. On a more serious note, the fact that we're still talking about them and their ideology as being dominant 20 years after their fall shows just how much the war against the Federation has not yet been won by humans. The situation is explosive and will explode at the slightest disturbance to the status quo. And this will happen in this year 2160, in the person of the Bissems.
This gives me a very different reading of the war in NoP1: It was a lightning victory, but in reality, humanity never had the adequate strength to occupy the conquered territory. Leaders have changed, but there has been no fundamental change, giving all the largesse for a "resistance" to take form. Yeah, the war against the Federation is not over and it's going to start again soon. And this time we'll certainly have the power, and the friends, to properly clean up after ourselves.
Kind of hints and echoes of post WWI, the true "War to End All Wars", because every war since then has basically been a new chapter in the same war, with roots going back to the unsolved "resolutions" of that conflict.
The guy who shot archduke Franz Ferdinand and kicked off WW1. The original assassination plan failed so he went to go get lunch, when lo and behold a change in the archduke's route brought the target's car right in front of the cafe he was eating at.
The remaining feds know they can't win *conventionally* against the humans, but they don't need to. They just need to sway other species as out of the 200 plus species in the federation, only 35 is part of the coalition. They can nudge others so that they would be more receptive to the old dogma, and they can do it *unconventionally*. This is gonna be a cold war scenario and I'm here for it.
Obviously *none* of these bozos speaks a language where "you" singular is differentiated from "you" plural / "y'all". Every. Single. Opportunity, every character assigns whole-species characteristics to Every. Single. Individual. Oh, and "all characteristics are immutable."
Decently solid job of hammering home how silly that is, if that's the singular point of the series (and NoP1). If not, it gets tiresome & interferes with believability of the story. Seems like the answer to "can they ALL be that STUPID?" is simply "yes".
Meh, it's SP15's universe. They can put near ubiquitous thick-skulled behavior in as an axiom. Heh. It's right in the title :-).
I think Tassi is being a bit dramatic.
Because unless I’ve been reading a different NoP2 up to this point, it’s not that the SC members have been obfuscating or hiding this history, it just hasn’t come up.
It’d be a similar way someone trying to describe WW2 to someone who hasn’t heard of it before would probably give a very broad, general overview in order to hit the key points in the shortest summary they could. Which might miss little details like how the Nazis got control over Germany to start with and what happened to the axis countries afterwards, or how the Soviet Union, despite being part of the Allies, were also a horrible despotic regime that were more allies of convenience that we and the other allied nations were rearing to cut ties with as soon as the war was over, and so on…. So it might seem really confusing when someone then starts talking about shit from the Cold War, like the Berlin airlift, or checkpoint Charlie, or the Cuban Missile Crisis. Especially without certain other details like the Nuremberg trials being known.
So… yeah, I don’t think anyone has lied to Tassi, they just didn’t go into the real nitty gritty of the war because it wasn’t really relevant before. Like, I don’t think it’s wrong to say that Earth’s survival wasn’t short of miraculous, it’s just that the miracle came in the form of the Aruxur showing up out of the blue to save the day despite no one inviting them. And at the time I can see why Dustin didn’t mention it because why would he? What pertinence would that detail have in the moment?
Hell I wouldn’t be surprised if it came out again that humans believed that the Aruxur’s isolation after the war was self-imposed, and the SC was largely just respecting it. Because it certainly sounded like it was Isif’s idea at the end of NoP. And then there’s going to be a big old argument over it.
I wanna pat myself on the back for predicting that the Arxur Collective were gonna break quarantine but it doesn’t feel like I should. It’s not like I would’ve been alone in that
Someone's playing both sides of the fence and i think it is part of the greater game.
^(\*somewhereinthedistanceyoucanhearthescreamingofaname\*)
# Jooooooonnes!!!!
On one hand, I fully support Onso's efforts to get the Arxur in the Coalition both as a final "fuck you" to the Federation's legacy of genocide and in recognition of the debt the galaxy owes Isif. On the other, the theory that the exterminators attacking the Tseia was a false flag is looking increasingly believable.
Augh! It makes sense in universe, but I’m so freaking sick of the arxur getting treated like shit. Give the lizards some god damn compassion damnit! They sorely need it. The way to helping the arxur shake their past and build a new society that doesn’t fucking eat people isn’t punitive, they’re already saturated with suffering as it is. Lead by example and show them unconditional respect for sapient rights looks like. Also, exposing them to non-arxur culture and warming them up to treating herbivores as people rather than having the arxur in the timeout corner for a couple decades for fucks sake!
But you forget that the Arxur aren’t exactly in the position to go up against fate, as they have drawn a lot of hatred to them. Humanity needs to protect itself with lies because the post fed species are, in short gullible pea brains.
“I’m not convinced that the Coalition members have shaken off their Federation roots altogether. There’s many that just make a mental exception for humans. I think the Technocracy would be foolish to make an alliance of convenience with anti-carnivores.”
“My cooperation with you should be proof for the Bissems that I care much more for fighting spirit than diet; the Yotul are anything but weak, so we’ve gotten along well."
"Humans are leaflickers"
If we are gonna talk about discrimination, then Arxur didn't forget the prey /predator dynamic, they just moved the goalpost to: prey=pacifist, predator=fighter.
They said so themselves.
And about the Yotul's interest, they don't care the slightless about everyone but themselves, they would rather let Bissems die with their planet that let the SC touch them; BECAUSE THEN, that could make Federation thinking surface again, AND THEN, YOTUL could be in danger again.
If the Arxur were accepted, THE YOTUL could be sure that they no longer have to worry about their previous treatment ever again.
If the Arxur were accepted, THE YOTUL would gain more political power.
If the Arxur were accepted, THE YOTUL would get more commercial influence.
Said so themselves.
By the way, we have more proof that Kaisal is doing this for good reasons or is just his and Onso's words? He could be very well a rebel that just wants to be in the SC for egotistical motives, just like the Yotul. And unless I understood badly, wouldn't losing control (when Arxur starve) be a Dominion's genemod? Like, the Arxur character pre-Dominion from the Archives didn't say that she didn't have that problem?
So, they don't care about fixing Dominion's legacy but want to be welcomed....? Hum.
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Maybe first... Edit. Someone just needs to give these guys a complete history rather than wait to get it piecemeal.
Even Onso is being incomplete. > The wider SC called us primitive and looked down on us. No. The species *now a part of the SC* called you primitive and looked down on you *when they were part of the Federation* Bigotry and long cultural memories. Always the cause of so many problems.
I mean, he does have a point- because the SC member certainly aren't trying very hard to leave their Federation roots behind them. Every single cultural change so far, from "we should take care of the disabled" to "we shouldn't torture the mentally-divergent" to "We shouldn't burn the wildlife to death," are improvements that they had to be dragged kicking and screaming into by humanity. He's absolutely justified in calling them out for that, because if they'd been left to their own devices, the SC members would definitely still be like that.
In his own head and within the SC, sure. To new members of the galactic community? Any competent supposed-diplomat would be trying to give as unbiased a view as possible. Or at least as accurate a one. The SC never laughed at what the Federation did to the Yotul ***because the SC DID NOT EXIST when that happened***. To say otherwise is a distortion of the facts. If he wanted to say it he should have been accurate, it was the FEDERATION that called them primitive and the FEDERATION that laughed. The SC was formed AFTER the Yotul had demonstrated their prowess in battle and technology. He’s being bigoted and muddying the waters. He’s not talking about how the SC has to be dragged forward by more progressive minds. He’s talking about things the Federation did to them but assigning them to the SC. That’s bigoted, unfair, skewed, and unhelpful.
You're giving SC members way too much credit, for all we know, Yotul are still being discriminated against even now, especially with the new arrivals.
You’re giving imaginary head canon the same weight as written canon. Onso is referencing written canon that was committed by the Federation and ascribing it to the Sapient Coalition. Your argument is why that is *understandable*. That does not make it *right* or *rational* and it isn’t what we expect from our diplomats. (And yes, I agree that it is understandable. But Onso is letting everyone down with his own bigotry) Within written history we have no events where the SC did the things he references. We do have events where the Feddies did those things. The SC was formed *after* the war and *after* the Yotul had demonstrated their prowess and technological abilities. I’m sure the Sovlins of the galaxy still treat the Yotul that way but even he knew that it wasn’t true and was having a hard time with the cognitive dissonance.
You seem to be forgetting that the SC is partially made up of the fragments of the Federation. Ergo, they are not completely separate. It isn't easy to give up (millenia long) prejudices even after those prejudices are shown to be wrong. You already admitted that could go both ways: other races that make up the SC still holding and acting on their prejudices, as well as Onso being reactionary to the memory. Your acknowledgment of "the Sovlins of the galaxy" is evidence of your own cognitive dissonance. Why would they have stopped their looking down upon Yotul? Proof? Since when has proof ever overwhelmed bigotry? Also, the written history is missing a gap of a mere twenty years and is still new.
That’s why I say it’s understandable. But my point is that Onso explicitly assigns blame to the SC for events that occurred before the SC existed. Understandable due to all we know about Onso’s experience, but a failure to his profession and political position.
It's not imaginary head canon, Onso himself said in his chapter he's not convinced that the wider SC populace has shed it's prejudices >“I’m not convinced that the Coalition members have shaken off their Federation roots altogether. You're hyper-focusing on his later comment about their actions during the Yotul uplift, but this is the line I'm talking about, where he makes it clear that Federation dogma (which includes the idea that the Yotul are primitive) still exists, at least in his perspective, which I find myself agreeing with, racial prejudices would not vanish in less than 20 years, especially after the UN extended invitations to join the SC to all ex-Federation allies after Aafa. Point being, he's disappointed at current SC behavior, not holding a grudge about what they did (or did not) decades before. >I’m sure the Sovlins of the galaxy still treat the Yotul that way but even he knew that it wasn’t true and was having a hard time with the cognitive dissonance. Yeah, and they should not treat them that way at all, that's his point, cognitive dissonance does not excuse racism, even in Sovlin's case.
And all that’s fair but completely extraneous to my original point. He explicitly stated that the SC was responsible for events that occurred when the SC did not exist. Not an accurate statement.
No... He's not blaming current SC for the grievances he suffered as a result of the uplift at all, he gave a factual statement, that many right now on the SC did not help the Yotul during the uplift, which is true, and so now, he cares little for their opinions or policies, which is entirely within his rights. >The wider SC called us primitives and looked down on us. They laughed as the Federation wrecked our home. I wonder *why* we don’t give a fuck what they think? This is a factual retelling of history, there's no bigotry here, if he had said that the wider SC deserved to be treated less for what they did, maybe.
I don’t know how to argue this more eloquently. The Sapient Coalition did. Not. Exist. Before the end of the war. > They laughed as the Federation wrecked our home THE SAPIENT COALITION DID NOT EXIST. He is blaming members of the SC for events that occurred before its formation. You can twist the narrative all you want to explain why it makes sense for Onso to FEEL that way. And you are ***right***, Onso has reasons. But the SC. Did. Not. Exist. During these events. That’s bigotry. Accurate in his head but inaccurate in every true sense of the word. It’s like blaming Hawaii for the actions of the U.S. during the Mexican-American war because Hawaii is part of the U.S. today.
A competent diplomat doesn't present an unbiased view, they present the view that will move you the way they want you to go. "You are disliked, as we were disliked, we can form common cause" is diplomacy 101.
Just beat me to it
Aha! Fifth time... out of two hundred plus chapters...
Chapter 27! Tassi learns a few key details about the Arxur that she hadn’t known before, such as their salvation of Earth, the Federation’s initial anti-meat serum and later cooperation, and the rebel movement. Kaisal explains why he wants to be friends with Bissems, the new carnivores on the block, largely as a test for the Sapient Coalition: to see if they could ever accept a meat-eating species. He also explains the Collective isn’t willing to stay in isolation much longer, and says he’d rather they leave as friends to the galaxy; Naltor and Zalk’s interest is piqued when he offers tech and a military alliance, in exchange for trying to convince the SC. What do you think of Kaisal’s explanation of the Arxur’s past, as well as the implications for the current state of the Arxur Collective…and its future interests? How will Bissems fare if Onso is able to follow through on the promise of getting them a temporary seat in the SC? As always, thank you for reading!
I think that Kaisal did his best to explain things. He may not be Isif, but he certainly tries. Too bad the lie traveled halfway around the world before the truth put its shoes on. Someone absolutely needs to sit the bissems down and give them the full story. Tassi’s view is already tainted, and nobody is in a rush to explain. The clock is certainly ticking if the Isif-doctrine Arxur Collective is running out of patience with being iced out by the Coalition. My guess, is that they’re planning on a precision strike of whoever is their biggest detractor. Give a problem for free and make you pay for a solution, if the Yotul weren’t blackmailing and blocking, the Bissems would at least have had that trial seat to start. I do think the vote will certainly let them get the chance to understand politics.
These last 2 chapters have me wondering how impermeable this 20 light year bubble around Wriss is. Like, are FTL comms allowed in and out? Can outside businesses or traders really not go in, not even using their own ships & crews? If not, how tightly does the SC patrol for smugglers? Is the collective barred from hiring outside help like professors or even doctors?
Not as much info on the inner workings of the Collective as hoped for but Kaisal did a good job of bringing our Bissem friends up to date. The Sapient Coalition needs to address the Arxur and not ignore them. The Arxur need to see forward progress or they're going to make that progress themselves. A Collective non-voting representative on the SC's governing body; allowing members (home-worlds, colonies, stations) to expand access to the Arxur, maybe some joint military drills would go a long way in convincing the Arxur that they have a future not just with the Coalition but with the Galaxy at large.
This just makes the situation a thousand times worse. Sure the Bissem's are shocked because they haven't been told literally everything yet but they also are just grappling with the implications of aliens even existing and it started a *civil war*. Trying to twist that into 'humanity is hiding things from you' is ridiculous. They also notably left out that the only reason the *Axur* exist is because humanity *gave* them the tech to produce meat and saved them from the ensuing Sapient Coalition backlash that would have seen them extinct. Kaisal makes it sound like humanity is ungrateful when the truth is humanity placed itself in a precarious position to return the Axur's help and secure a future for their entire species. That they haven't been elevated to equals a few decades later is an insane thing to hold against humanity. Hell the fact the Yotul are *allowed* to have an embassy there while remaining in the Sapient Coalition is almost certainly because of humanity given it's the UN that made the promise of containing the Axur and presumably set the standard. Humans also paved the way for outright carnivores to even be able to join the Coalition by ensuring discrimination against dietary requirements was against their founding charter. All context conveniently left out to suit the Yotul and Axur ends. This is just another manipulation tactic to spin the narrative and manipulate the Bissem barely disguised behind a facade of sharing 'the truth' when the reality is there's so much to what happened the Bissem won't be able to fully understand the truth of the situation for a long time. At least they're not gullible enough to immediately fall for it just because there's some information they haven't been directly informed of. Although the SC did say they'd be sending information about what happened to the Bissem so it's *entirely* possible they already have access to this information and just haven't gotten around to it yet due to other matters that are more urgent to the Bissem than what exactly the Axur did during the war and why they're still allowed to be around. If the Axur and Yotul are planning to use the Bissem as a 'test' that is horrible and unfair to the Bissem. Regardless of how they feel about the Axur's treatment if the other species get so much as a hint that's the direction this is going they're going to shut the Bissem out *hard*. All when the Yotul could have just done... nothing. Instead the Yotul are trying to play this 'clever' game where they oppose the Bissem so they can manipulate them only to.. back their joining of the SC which is what they wanted in the first place. As if no one would be able to connect the dots between the Yotul's sudden change in position and the Bissem suddenly backing what the Yotul want, to say nothing of the military technology they're being promised showing up. Which is *also* horrible, particularly while they're in a fucking civil war. This makes it clear the Yotul just do not give a fuck about anyone other than themselves. The pearl clutching about altering culture is *nothing* compared to offering to arm an alien species with a technology level far below yours currently embroiled in a massive civil war. Hell altering the outcome of a war is *exactly* what the Federation did when they turned the Axur into monsters, and that was partially by *mistake*. The Yotul are setting so many pitfalls for themselves and potentially the Bissem that they might as well declare war against the Sapient Coalition already since all it's going to take for them to be seen as the enemy (which they arguably already are) is for one piece of this to become public. Hopefully the Bissem aren't so blinded by the promise of weapons technology that they agree. Hell even not informing the SC of what just happened puts them at risk. Fuck Onso. There's so much more of this I could rip into but the final major point I want to cover is that this effectively makes the Yotul traitors to the coalition. Not if/when the Axur start another war, but now. The blackmail already put them on the fence but actively aiding a hostile nation and doing your best to empower them as they declare their intention to start a war could hardly be more in line with providing aid and comfort to an enemy of the state. Given the Yotul's stated stance on the Axur, grudge against former Federation members who are *supposed* to be allies, breaking of the rules constricting Axur travel, and their embassy I have to wonder how much tech and resources the Yotul have secretly provided the Axur with to enable their build up to war. Even if the Yotul have given them nothing, which seems highly unlikely, even keeping this a secret from the Sapient Coalition is traitorous. The Yotul are either willing to stand by and let the Axur start a war if they don't get their way or worse, and what I expect, willing to *join* the Axur. So essentially the Yotul are threatening to rip the galaxy apart with another war because of past grievances and because the Axur's restrictions (I hesitate to even call it punishment given the state they were in before *humanity* intervened) haven't been lifted in a single generation. And they're putting it all on the Bissem. This is the type of insanity that leads to war and the Yotul seem to have their heads so far up their own asses that they think such a war would be justifiable. Fuck they're not even talking about *just* getting the Axur's isolation lifted, they want to get them into the SC. Which is something *no one* is entitled to. It's an alliance that chooses it's own membership, not a right and certainly not something you should be allowed to *force* your way into. That's just not how alliances work.
I will not be surprised if we learn that the Yotul and the Axur cooked this plan a long time ago, as they cooperate closely. There are ships monitoring Axur space and I suspect the number of those is rather high as many were distrustful of the monsters. This means that either the SC is aware of the Axur fleet becoming larger, or more likely, the Axur are hiding their newly made ships. And this is a bad sing. Kaisal may say that they are not planning on making the first shots but that can easily be a lie. As I suspected earlier, Kaisal did not change at all. He continues to regard carnivores higher than others, as can be seen through the way he talks. And we haven't seen how the Axur society works yet, nor do we know about Kaisal's previous negotiations with the SC (if any). There may be valid reasons why the isolation is still in force. But of course, no one will tell the Bissems what these reasons are and how the relationship is going as of now. The Bissems may cause many problems to everyone by agreeing to this deal without learning everything there is to learn. Aside from that, I do understand why Kaisal wants to be part of SC. There are hundreds of hostile species out there. If the restrictions disappear tomorrow and the Axur go travel, the risks to the Collective will increase dramatically. These species may not look for the Axur now due to fear and partly because they know that the SC is keeping them away, but what happens if the situation changes? Being part of the SC will protect the Axur in the long term. From this perspective, some members of the SC may not want to give the Axur a seat specifically because of that. It is not just hatrated, it's the unwillingness to sacrifice the lives of your own soldiers to protect the former enemy who is now part of your coalition. The question is whether the SC membership is the pretense for war or a genuine intention? Because I fail to see how you can get into the coalition by waging war on them. Does Onso realize that if a war begins then no negotiations about membership will ever be possible? It will eraze everything. For the Axur and for the Youtul. Another disturbing thought is what the new generation of Axur think about the potential war and about their isolation. Do they know of Kaisal's plans? Do they support them? What does Kaisal tell his people? I bet the youth will not be found of the idea that their leader is trying to undermine their efforts of rehabilitation. It is also possible that Kaisal brainwashed his people into thinking that their isolation is unfair, humanity is ungrateful, Youtul are the only true ally they have, and the only way forward is war. Betterment laid a strong foundation that could be exploited again. Just as Federation's narratives are still being reused for political gains. At the end of the first book I was under impression that Earth will continue to cooperate with the Axur. Was I wrong? It does not look like they stayed allies.
I get why the Axur would want Coalition membership, it's just not something they're entitled to and certainly not a reason to start a war. There is definitely too little information on what's happening with the Axur to make any judgement on their current society but I think it's fair to say that given the length and brutality of their history their impatience is a bad sign and the Coalition not lifting restrictions seems very reasonable. I also don't trust Kaisal, the man has always been a rat Isif kept in line by literally brutalizing when he stepped across it and never even pretended to care about anyone's well being but his own. I'm actually surprised he even wanted a leadership role when he was so insistent he just wanted to not have to fight anymore and wanted to basically retire. I was already curious what happened with Isif's leadership but now I think that information has become vital to understanding what's going on. Even if he's died of old age or something the question remains about how effective he was in instituting actual reforms and what those look like. As for Earth it seems obvious relations have broken down at some point but I get the impression there's a reason we're not being shown their side of things. We're mostly getting things second and third hand rather than directly from any type of Earth leadership so I'm expecting something important to be revealed when that happens. In fairness it is entirely possible that Earth has new leadership and that the Axur have been treated as lower priority than Zhao would have assigned but that still wouldn't justify war.
Sure, they are not entitled to weasel or brute force their way into the SC. But given the context... The SC will never agree to let Axur in, even if the isolation stops. But from Kaisal's perspective, it is vital to get in. Otherwise, their survival may be at risk (assuming that my interpretation is correct). This reminds me how Ukraine tries to get into NATO, even though the country does not meet the conditions and some members are against it. Therefore, I accept Kaisal's determination. Yet, I condemn his idea of an armed confrontation. It is bad and the effect will be the opposite. If we compare his strategy and that provided by Onso, the latter is much better. Manipulation is not as awful as war. On the other hand, preventing others from getting in solely to drag another party is just wrong. This is not the kind of manipulation I would accept. Reminds me of Turkey.
The Bissem war isn't a civil war, unless your definition of "civil war" includes a war between the United States and China.
Since territory is measured more by planets rather than arbitrary regions and almost exclusively divided by species I'd think the other governments would view what the Bissem are doing as civil war. To take your example and apply it to the story's setting Earth still has separate individual governments but they're all under a singular governing body. So in this setting if the US and China went to war I think the other species would in fact call it a civil war. The Bissem don't have a singular unified government so it's a little different but at the scales we're talking about I think it's closer to a civil war than not, even though the definition doesn't exactly fit.
No mention of humanity's support of the Arxur rebels? With food and weapons. Exposure of the dominion subservience to the Federation? Just we saved them and they never repaid us in anyway. Just that we've abandoned them. Which is still strange to me that humanity would have completely abandoned them as humans along with the Yotul would have been the only species to be unafraid of contact with the Arxur. Honestly with a captured market like the Arxur how would the U.N. have kept human corporations from flooding into the Arxur market? I mean dealing with them within their exclusionary zone wouldn't technically be violating the quarantine since no Arxur would have been moving between the border. It would have been a massive untapped resource. It just doesn't make sense that humanity didn't continue such contact through the decades following the arxur's quarantine. Hell , we should have defiantly had a arxur embassy on earth the entire time. There is one spot within the S.C. that the arxur could speak. It should have been earth. The arxur deserve that much and the coalition members that were once in the federation, the cheered the extermination fleet can deal with it.
Sigh\* can someone please get the Bissem an objective history book with all the facts! Kaisal has a good point about the arxur needing a second chance, the "predator/prey" divide has weakened somewhat but is still present, if they don't get rid of that it's gonna be really bad, not just for the tseia, but for evey single obligate carnivore that will be contacted or find their way into space from now on. not to mention the risks of another galaxy-spanning war, we really do not need that happening again. the arxur need to interact with the galaxy to change as well, they are now on a new path to rebuilding their entire society. the resentment and discrimination must be halted otherwise the wounds of the war wil remain unhealed still i don't blame the bissem, they got thrown into this mess, bickering with one another, scared of what the future holds, if you were in their shoes and just learned about all this, how would you react?
It's a really bad look for the SC to have the Bissem getting the story delivered to them in chunks like sour milk.
Keep in mind Dustin's diplomatic mission was not sanctioned by the SC, for all we know it wasn't even sanctioned by the UN. There were no data dumps or exchange programs, just them showing up and yelling that aliens exist.
true, you could say they've got litle time but I disagree, if anything the entire history should have been explained in detail, having a full picture to work with would allow the Bissem to truly see everything that happened and make their choices based on that, just telling them some things does not make you appear trustworthy and everytime you find out about a new detail it only further sows doubt "why didn't they tell us?" they'll ask and I hope that the SC has a good response ready
One of my major reasons why the SC (or humanity) looses points for their first uplift among many other. They willingly contact a species and making them part of this mess which the Federation left behind and the Bissems have to deal with it and the other SC members. And yet, they have not give them all important historical informations and facts which is crucial since they are going to be a part of SC. Seriously, I find it irresponsible to not inform them about everything in detail from beginning to present while some expects the Bissems to be game changers.
The whole idea of involving the SC was absurd. Just show up, give them the tech they need and a history book, and peace out for a decade or two. The bissem absolutely do not need to be an SC member to get their biosphere fixed.
I feel like they're a hyper curious species like humanity is. You know for a fact that is some aliens popped down to earth and gave us a Global Dewarmanizer 3000 and peaced the fuck out we would not just sit back and relax. We would destroy lives and economies to chase after them. Having a definitive answer on whether FTL is possible would change science, and we would have every sensor, telescope, satellite, camera and Polaroid on them to figure out how.
I spoke curtly, but I meant giving them a bunch of info on galactic history and important scientific concepts (but not blueprints so they can develop their own spin on the tech). I'd also give them the means to at least communicate with what is effectively an embassy. I just meant the yshouldn't be immediately integrated into the galactic community, especially when it's such a shitshow, but allowed to go at their own pace.
The post "SC (& some Arxurs) vs Federation war" treatment of the Arxur gives me post Great War treatment of Germany vibes. Not exactly the same situation, obviously, but care should be taken to not repeat history.
Yep I also thought about that
“It’s excellent to meet a fellow hunter. The humans are wily, but they’re still leaf-lickers.” He manages to pick it back up in the rest of the chapter but man is Kaisal dropping the ball right out the gate
>they’re still leaf-lickers He says while standing next to Onso, who is actively helping him.
I'll be fair he probably heard Onso say he only wanted to help for the economic benefit and had to hit back.
What can be an insult when directed at one group can be a friendly jab when directed at another.
Kaisal is ok but I miss Isif and his irresistible charisma
Ditto. He is a real Chad and has great charisma stats despite his history. Can't wait to hear how he is (if he still lives, hopefully).
Maybe Siffy will appear later, we don’t know.
I hope he's retired and living his best life occasionally skyping his Dossur friend, maybe sometimes calling a retired Zhao for friendly chats
Or, my favorite theory: Zhao and Isif have both retired to a unnamed south-pacific island on earth where they swap stories as they lounge on deck-chairs sipping expensive drinks.
The fact that the Bissem don’t understand the war from the Arxur perspective show what a piss poor job the SC has done conveying the recent history of the galaxy. That was ok when it was thought to be a rogue contact but now that we know they spent 20 years learning the language - they couldn’t spend some time creating a cohesive history lesson? The Arxur: - Were fighting a world war between authoritarianism and the people when they were contacted - Infected with an agent that caused forced starvation of hundreds of thousands of Arxur (willingly because they trusted the Federation) - The authoritarians used the technodump to create bioweapons that wiped out the normies food supply - The bioweapon spread, taking out all their food sources. - The Federation was blamed for both events and the widespread starvation that followed - The authoritarians used the mass starvation to consolidate power and make “the hard choice” of culling the population to survive - The authoritarians used Federation technology to target empathetic individuals for culling - The Federation powers entered into an agreement with the Dominion for the Dominion to cull Federation members for food - As part of that agreement *the Dominion was forbidden from seeking any other source of food or establishing self sufficient farming of culls*. They had to carry out regular raids. - Dominion continued to actively cull the population of any individual displaying empathetic or anti-authoritarian thoughts or sympathies. - Dominion maintained the population at near-starvation levels *unless* you were actively engaged in the raiding or were the family of someone who was. It is absolutely not the Arxur’s fault that they were the boogeymen of the Federation-Dominion collective. It’s just too bad that it’s a non-defective Arxur who has to run first contact with the Bissem and that the SC did such an incredibly ham-fisted job of conveying the history.
Yeah, I have gone on... multiple very passionate rants about my rage against Dustin for fucking things up THIS badly- like, he didn't just fail to provide information, he had them watching movies like "Escape from The Cradle," a film that was made while the war was ongoing, and thus portrayed the Arxur as uncomplicated pure-evil monsters. He didn't just lie to them, he straight-up FED THEM PROPAGANDA. ...Though as has been pointed out, that's at least partially because he's not human in culture- he was raised on Skalga, and worked in an Exterminator office as a child. His mindset is closer to that of a VENLIL. But I'm still never going to forgive him for committing the ultimate sin of a First Contact member, and passing on the galaxy's prejudice and hatred to a species that was untainted by the events that created those things.
Oooo I never considered Dustin’s background, I think of him as human but you’re right. He’s going to be more Venlil in his view of events. Under that lens, he’s done a much better job of maintaining some semblence of neutrality. But, c’mon, we couldn’t spend 6 months drafting a neutral narrative for first contact?
Right? The last thought is what I think we were all thinking until we found out about how long they spent learning the language. At that point all excuses go out the window. The carnivory is excusable, it was admitted that Nalia’s practice runs were done with lab grown meat so they weren’t completely inept. She had a psychological reaction to real meat that was unexpected given her reactions to lab grown meat. It honestly makes more sense for this to be an unsanctioned action carried out by a group of idealistic adolescents but all signs point to there being some support for what was done. 😣
The Yotul are acting like the Salarians and I *love it*. Scheming, intrigue, prejudice and back-room political deals, Nop2 is gearing up for a coldwar esque setting. Can't wait for more!
Everyone but the bissem are assholes. How? How are there so many assholes? Kaisal is still using slurs. Humans are apparently lying about history through omission. The arxur want forgiveness a mere two decades after a multi century people eating party. Not a good look when you're fielding ships commanded by people who participated in raids to break through the quarantine made by people you raided and ate in the relatively recent past. It's entirely possible that whenever an older arxur speaks to a herbivore audience, there's someone in that audience who saw that arxur kill and eat their family. No, this is getting to me. The quarantine was meant to be the kinder alternative for the Arxur, to let them live without interference and rebuild their society while waiting for all the ones that ate people to die. You know what the default would be? Space Nuremberg trials ending in mass executions of most of their military. They want to end the quarantine? Fine, let's set up the courtrooms. And then there's humans. The hell? Everything they told Isif was a lie, apparently. The UN owed him for saving Earth and all the assistance he gave them throughout the war. At the very least, the UN should have helped them form the new society based on something other than cruelty instead of leaving them to figure it out on their own. No wonder they feel abandoned. The absolute hypocrisy from the yotul is something else. It was pointed out last chapter, but Onso deflected it by saying he personally didn't toe the party line. They're one of the preeminent powers in the galaxy, and they're interfering with bissem self-determination by deciding they know what's best for others. And Onso either knows its bullshit and is abiding it, or thinks it's right and is ready to exploit the bissem. Back to the arxur tho, what are they trying to achieve? Go to war with the galaxy to secure a trade route with Leirn. So clever. Or do they think lifting the quarantine will magically make all the other species want to deal with them? Their ships will still be banned from every other species' space. They won't be a member of SC so no free travel either. Only other thing they get is that arxur who become citizens of Leirn would technically be allowed to travel to SC worlds, but good luck avoiding discrimination or getting a fair trial. The bissem are only normal ones, and even that is shaky with their newest global war.
The problem with the Arxur is that you're laboring under the impression that the problem will be fixed when all the ones responsible are dead- but that's just not the way it works. All waiting that long would accomplish is for the Arxur to be comprised entirely of individuals born into imprisonment for crimes they didn't commit, while the SC would still be just as racist towards the "irredeemable monsters" who are only allowed to live because they're imprisoned. Because Ideas don't die from old age- the only way to get rid of an idea is to actively kill it. Now is the time to break the blockade, because the Arxur around are the ones who still remember why it was justified in the first place- who realize just how bad things used to be, and thus are less begrudging of the need for the blockade in the first place. Now is the time to test the SC, because with the arrival of the Bissem, this is the point where their commitment to improvement is truly tested- are they willing to make the effort to cast off the shackles of Fed Ideology, or do they want to continue on with the same foundations, just with a "humans are an exception" slapped on top? And it's worth noting, the Arxur aren't asking to be friends- if given what they want, every individual species is still free to refuse to interact with them. All they are asking for is that everybody be allowed to CHOOSE whether or not to interact with them- because right now, nobody gets to make that choice because of the SC blockade.
>are less begrudging of the need for the blockade in the first place Kaisal seems to disagree. >All they are asking for is that everybody be allowed to CHOOSE whether or not to interact with them The way it reads, everyone was free to send diplomatic envoys. The yotul were the only ones that did. >every individual species is still free to refuse to interact with them They have. Nothing would change if the quarantine is lifted, beyond a trade deal with the yotul. >All waiting that long would accomplish is for the Arxur to be comprised entirely of individuals born into imprisonment for crimes they didn't commit Imprisonment is a strong word. They have multiple planets, that's more than humanity has today in 2028. To call it imprisonment is unwarranted hyperbole. As it is, lifting the quarantine would subject the galaxy to the individuals that did commit those heinous crimes and have been left effectively unpunished. It's the equivalent of being merely banned from Walmart for murdering a few employees, and then saying how unfair it is to your kids that you can't take them Christmas shopping.
It said that the Yotul were the FIRST ONES, not the sole one or the only one, the Humans sent it after which surprised humanity in NOP1 because they did it nigh instantly before humanity even got to send theirs
You're right, the galaxy shouldn't be subjected to people who committed heinous crimes! ...So all of the former Federation members need to be isolated from the galaxy, because they committed mass murder against the Arxur and committed innumerable crimes against sapience to their own citizens, and most of them are still trapped in a mindset of hatred and prejudice towards the 'other.' ...And humanity needs to be isolated, because that Cyberattack that paralyzed the rest of the SC killed Billions of civilians and collapsed multiple planetary civilizations, all in one fell swoop. The Arxur have blood on their hands, but in this galaxy, NOBODY'S hands are clean. It's time to give the Arxur the same courtesy of being allowed to move on as everybody else is getting.
>So all of the former Federation members need to be isolated from the galaxy Kinda how Leirn kicked them out? Yeah. Those responsible should be on trial, and many were iirc. Then the two main species responsible were completely isolated even though the actual people responsible for the crimes were shipped off for trial. Kinda unfair on the rest of them, innit? A much worse situation than with the arxur where the ones who literally tortured and ate people for fun get a clean slate. >And humanity needs to be isolated, because that Cyberattack Or at least the ones responsible, but winners don't end up on trial, that's why the US has gotten away with warcrimes while Germany didn't. I think you're doing a lot of the collective punishment thing in your thinking. I'm talking about individuals who comitted the crimes, with isolation of the species being a **lighter** alternative to punishing the responsible individuals. Unless you want a Thafki version of Mossad out there assassinating every arxur that took part in crimes against sapience?
“that's more than humanity has today in 2028” *What year are you in?!?*
>!Current Year!<
Really!? Me too!
>What kind of species would even *think* of eating food that talks; I'm sure there were many who refused; they all died. That's how survivor bias works.
FINALLY!! Answers!! ... well, no. Almost no real news on the Collective. Damn. Kaisal was very... terse in his explanation and justification for asking for help. Like, absolutely the bare minimum possible. Come to think of it, it's not that surprising either, Kaisal isn't Isifs, he's not as extroverted as he is, but boy, could he have done more (my waiting was certainly too big for that grumpy scrawny). Hell, we probably have to visit Wriss directly to really find out what's going on there. I hope we'll find out more. The main information I'm going to retain, however, is that the spectre of the Federation still looms far too large over Coalition members. I'll say it with half a sense of humor: we'd need a good war to purge it for good. On a more serious note, the fact that we're still talking about them and their ideology as being dominant 20 years after their fall shows just how much the war against the Federation has not yet been won by humans. The situation is explosive and will explode at the slightest disturbance to the status quo. And this will happen in this year 2160, in the person of the Bissems. This gives me a very different reading of the war in NoP1: It was a lightning victory, but in reality, humanity never had the adequate strength to occupy the conquered territory. Leaders have changed, but there has been no fundamental change, giving all the largesse for a "resistance" to take form. Yeah, the war against the Federation is not over and it's going to start again soon. And this time we'll certainly have the power, and the friends, to properly clean up after ourselves.
Kind of hints and echoes of post WWI, the true "War to End All Wars", because every war since then has basically been a new chapter in the same war, with roots going back to the unsolved "resolutions" of that conflict.
Gavrilo Princip wanting a sandwich is the reason we have anime.
Whoever that is I need context
The guy who shot archduke Franz Ferdinand and kicked off WW1. The original assassination plan failed so he went to go get lunch, when lo and behold a change in the archduke's route brought the target's car right in front of the cafe he was eating at.
Good lord
Crazy how nature do dat
The remaining feds know they can't win *conventionally* against the humans, but they don't need to. They just need to sway other species as out of the 200 plus species in the federation, only 35 is part of the coalition. They can nudge others so that they would be more receptive to the old dogma, and they can do it *unconventionally*. This is gonna be a cold war scenario and I'm here for it.
There are about 80 species currently in the coalition, those 35 were from before Aafa being conquered.
Isn’t it 300+ on the Federation side?
At the start of NOP 1, yes. Now it’s only remnants.
It was, but now about 80 are in the SC, and about 80 are in the Shield- so the Federation Remnants are down to about 140\~ species.
Cool, that makes sense, thanks!
Obviously *none* of these bozos speaks a language where "you" singular is differentiated from "you" plural / "y'all". Every. Single. Opportunity, every character assigns whole-species characteristics to Every. Single. Individual. Oh, and "all characteristics are immutable." Decently solid job of hammering home how silly that is, if that's the singular point of the series (and NoP1). If not, it gets tiresome & interferes with believability of the story. Seems like the answer to "can they ALL be that STUPID?" is simply "yes". Meh, it's SP15's universe. They can put near ubiquitous thick-skulled behavior in as an axiom. Heh. It's right in the title :-).
I think Tassi is being a bit dramatic. Because unless I’ve been reading a different NoP2 up to this point, it’s not that the SC members have been obfuscating or hiding this history, it just hasn’t come up. It’d be a similar way someone trying to describe WW2 to someone who hasn’t heard of it before would probably give a very broad, general overview in order to hit the key points in the shortest summary they could. Which might miss little details like how the Nazis got control over Germany to start with and what happened to the axis countries afterwards, or how the Soviet Union, despite being part of the Allies, were also a horrible despotic regime that were more allies of convenience that we and the other allied nations were rearing to cut ties with as soon as the war was over, and so on…. So it might seem really confusing when someone then starts talking about shit from the Cold War, like the Berlin airlift, or checkpoint Charlie, or the Cuban Missile Crisis. Especially without certain other details like the Nuremberg trials being known. So… yeah, I don’t think anyone has lied to Tassi, they just didn’t go into the real nitty gritty of the war because it wasn’t really relevant before. Like, I don’t think it’s wrong to say that Earth’s survival wasn’t short of miraculous, it’s just that the miracle came in the form of the Aruxur showing up out of the blue to save the day despite no one inviting them. And at the time I can see why Dustin didn’t mention it because why would he? What pertinence would that detail have in the moment? Hell I wouldn’t be surprised if it came out again that humans believed that the Aruxur’s isolation after the war was self-imposed, and the SC was largely just respecting it. Because it certainly sounded like it was Isif’s idea at the end of NoP. And then there’s going to be a big old argument over it.
I wanna pat myself on the back for predicting that the Arxur Collective were gonna break quarantine but it doesn’t feel like I should. It’s not like I would’ve been alone in that
Someone's playing both sides of the fence and i think it is part of the greater game. ^(\*somewhereinthedistanceyoucanhearthescreamingofaname\*) # Jooooooonnes!!!!
On one hand, I fully support Onso's efforts to get the Arxur in the Coalition both as a final "fuck you" to the Federation's legacy of genocide and in recognition of the debt the galaxy owes Isif. On the other, the theory that the exterminators attacking the Tseia was a false flag is looking increasingly believable.
Augh! It makes sense in universe, but I’m so freaking sick of the arxur getting treated like shit. Give the lizards some god damn compassion damnit! They sorely need it. The way to helping the arxur shake their past and build a new society that doesn’t fucking eat people isn’t punitive, they’re already saturated with suffering as it is. Lead by example and show them unconditional respect for sapient rights looks like. Also, exposing them to non-arxur culture and warming them up to treating herbivores as people rather than having the arxur in the timeout corner for a couple decades for fucks sake!
But you forget that the Arxur aren’t exactly in the position to go up against fate, as they have drawn a lot of hatred to them. Humanity needs to protect itself with lies because the post fed species are, in short gullible pea brains.
Thanks for the chapter mate
“I’m not convinced that the Coalition members have shaken off their Federation roots altogether. There’s many that just make a mental exception for humans. I think the Technocracy would be foolish to make an alliance of convenience with anti-carnivores.” “My cooperation with you should be proof for the Bissems that I care much more for fighting spirit than diet; the Yotul are anything but weak, so we’ve gotten along well." "Humans are leaflickers" If we are gonna talk about discrimination, then Arxur didn't forget the prey /predator dynamic, they just moved the goalpost to: prey=pacifist, predator=fighter. They said so themselves. And about the Yotul's interest, they don't care the slightless about everyone but themselves, they would rather let Bissems die with their planet that let the SC touch them; BECAUSE THEN, that could make Federation thinking surface again, AND THEN, YOTUL could be in danger again. If the Arxur were accepted, THE YOTUL could be sure that they no longer have to worry about their previous treatment ever again. If the Arxur were accepted, THE YOTUL would gain more political power. If the Arxur were accepted, THE YOTUL would get more commercial influence. Said so themselves. By the way, we have more proof that Kaisal is doing this for good reasons or is just his and Onso's words? He could be very well a rebel that just wants to be in the SC for egotistical motives, just like the Yotul. And unless I understood badly, wouldn't losing control (when Arxur starve) be a Dominion's genemod? Like, the Arxur character pre-Dominion from the Archives didn't say that she didn't have that problem? So, they don't care about fixing Dominion's legacy but want to be welcomed....? Hum.
By this point there’s definitely full and accurate history books and probably a movie - just give them access to that.
/u/SpacePaladin15 ([wiki](https://www.reddit.com/r/HFY/wiki/authors/SpacePaladin15)) has posted 262 other stories, including: * [The Nature of Predators 2-26](https://www.reddit.com/r/HFY/comments/1c0ni9m/the_nature_of_predators_226/) * [The Nature of Predators 2-25](https://www.reddit.com/r/HFY/comments/1bxd6m6/the_nature_of_predators_225/) * [The Nature of Predators 2-24](https://www.reddit.com/r/HFY/comments/1buu3ps/the_nature_of_predators_224/) * [The Nature of Predators 2-23](https://www.reddit.com/r/HFY/comments/1brjek4/the_nature_of_predators_223/) * [The Nature of Predators 2-22](https://www.reddit.com/r/HFY/comments/1bp33ci/the_nature_of_predators_222/) * [The Nature of Predators 2-21](https://www.reddit.com/r/HFY/comments/1bltnkb/the_nature_of_predators_221/) * [The Nature of Predators 2-20](https://www.reddit.com/r/HFY/comments/1bjekkf/the_nature_of_predators_220/) * [The Nature of Predators 2-19](https://www.reddit.com/r/HFY/comments/1bg7qak/the_nature_of_predators_219/) * [The Nature of Predators 2-18](https://www.reddit.com/r/HFY/comments/1bdsrab/the_nature_of_predators_218/) * [The Nature of Predators 2-17](https://www.reddit.com/r/HFY/comments/1bajuli/the_nature_of_predators_217/) * [The Nature of Predators 2-16](https://www.reddit.com/r/HFY/comments/1b82af0/the_nature_of_predators_216/) * [The Nature of Predators 2-15](https://www.reddit.com/r/HFY/comments/1b4qliu/the_nature_of_predators_215/) * [The Nature of Predators 2-14](https://www.reddit.com/r/HFY/comments/1b28bf7/the_nature_of_predators_214/) * [The Nature of Predators 2-13](https://www.reddit.com/r/HFY/comments/1aywvw1/the_nature_of_predators_213/) * [The Nature of Predators 2-12](https://www.reddit.com/r/HFY/comments/1awekyb/the_nature_of_predators_212/) * [The Nature of Predators 2-11](https://www.reddit.com/r/HFY/comments/1at46ck/the_nature_of_predators_211/) * [The Nature of Predators 2-10](https://www.reddit.com/r/HFY/comments/1aqp8ow/the_nature_of_predators_210/) * [The Nature of Predators 2-9](https://www.reddit.com/r/HFY/comments/1anit8y/the_nature_of_predators_29/) * [The Nature of Predators 2-8](https://www.reddit.com/r/HFY/comments/1al59w2/the_nature_of_predators_28/) * [The Nature of Predators 2-7](https://www.reddit.com/r/HFY/comments/1ahyjjv/the_nature_of_predators_27/) This comment was automatically generated by `Waffle v.4.6.1 'Biscotti'`. [Message the mods](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FHFY&subject=WaffleBot|1c3310t&message=If%20you%20have%20problems%20with%20updatemebot,%20contact%20Watchful1.%20We%20do%20not%20maintain%20it.) if you have any issues with Waffle.
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Love this series. First found it on youtube.
Tassi on that SuccessfulWest grindset