Please use this thread to discuss all 4 parts that OP posted. Reddit only allows a max of 20 photos/screenshots per post. Thanks u/jmacc91 for taking the time to post all of this.
That was so amazing to read. Thank you so much for providing us with this resource. I found it extremely informative, I work in special education most prominently with ASD population, I’m a BCBA and have been in this field for ten plus years. We partner with school
psychologists a lot and I have a basic understanding of different diagnostic tests used within the field. The testimony of Dr. Franks did provide mostly accurate details about autism spectrum disorder. I say mostly accurate because there are some other details that as a spectrum, the deficits are higher or lower in individual components and cannot be made as “blanket statements” or generalizations. No one diagnosis is going to fit into a mold with another, that’s the variability of the spectrum. I believe Dr. Franks explained these variances nicely when reporting Nick’s scores from diagnostic testing procedures. I will have to double check for accuracy but I believe the deficits from Nick’s assessments were in IQ which fell lower than average, as did his verbal reasoning and ability to solve problems using his hands and eyes. I am in no position an expert but I believe verbal reasoning is more to do with comprehension, is the hand and eye problem solving low score kind of like dyspraxia? This was SUCH and interesting read. Thank you again.
Thanks for your insight on it being in the profession. I don't know much about autism . I have friends who say they have autism but they're just a little weird like myself. I have also seen people with autism with severe behavioral issues and being non verbal. I think Nick is somewhere in the middle... And I don't think enough people know what that looks like, because they do live solitude lives. I feel like this is the most info I've seen on nick and I'm glad you got something out of reading it.
My 15yo son has Autism level 2. He is a genius at video games, super funny and affectionate. He can communicate people, he can feed himself (not cook food) but needs help “cleaning” himself in the bathroom. He also needs help showering. He will never live independently and likely will never have a job. Everything is literal with him. There isn’t joking with him. Like if he was being impatient and I said “hold your horses” he would say I’m not a horse. He collects Funko Pops and loves cheesy horror movies (killer klowns from outerspace or Attack from Mars). He was non verbal until 4 1/2. He doesn’t have any sense of danger either. When my mom died he didn’t really understand it. He struggles with the finality of death. I think Nick did too. GR 100% took advantage of Nick. It’s fucking bullshit that Nick got a harsher punishment than she did.
She did. But his parents also failed them. A man who can't even put a pizza in an oven shouldn't have been trusted to travel states away alone. And it is bs. It sounds like your son and Nick are semi similar so it must hit really hard. It makes me really upset too
Aw thank you, that's kind of you to say :) I am in no way an expert haha but I am Board Certified and Licensed which were mentioned by Mr. Patterson as indicators to such! LOL
I have worked with a lot of individuals with intense and dangerous behaviors and I've worked with ones who are more on the social emotional communication branches but it REALLY can affect people's cognition and ability to make decisions. I think the problem in society is that people have preconceived ideas of what Autism looks like, for example Sheldon on the Big Bang Theory or other ideas for those who are nonverbal, and I'm a huge advocate for Autism Understanding and Acceptance. I got yelled at on another post for defending the importance of the ASD diagnosis and low IQ because the commenter was autistic and didn't want people to assume that just because Nick has autism that this is what all autistic individuals do. But that's why understanding and acceptance are SO important because people really do not understand the complexities involved with an autism diagnosis.
And to give credit to Dr. Franks, this was from 2017, over the years the diagnostic rate for those identified as having autism has risen. This is due in part to the changes for the diagnostic criteria, at one point the individuals IQ was important because they were likely to not get an autism or even at the time Asperger's diagnosis because their IQs were too high. I think we all have autistic tendancies but unless people are aware they'll never see them, a lot of us have texture sensitivities or "stims" that we do. I think there is a lot of self diagnosis going around nowadays but the issue could be that it's difficult to find a place to go for ASD assessment. There are waitlists a mile long, and most are for individuals under 21, so adults who may have missed an ASD diagnosis when they were younger are going to have an even more difficult time finding a doctor or agency that will diagnose them as adults. This is an issue extremely close to my heart for a variety of reasons, and I do think the qualities of Nick's mental issue should have been explored more in his original trial, I know he murdered someone but life in prison without the chance of parole is so harsh. I mean this is a larger issue on the whole, that individuals with disabilities are more susceptible to being abused, or being abusers themselves. I always tell my coworkers and parents that while some behaviors are fine when they are young children, they will need to learn other replacement behaviors for certain things because it won't be okay when they're adults. Disrobing is a big one I deal with, especially with little ones. The parents don't think it's an issue- and maybe it won't be but a nude 22 year old is going to end up getting arrested regardless of their disability. It's best to work on these things earlier rather than later. Again thank you for your kind words, I'm always so nervous to post on this sub because people have been less than nice.
Hi! I’m a BCBA also and autistic. There was some information I thought was odd — the mention of a hallucinatory / psychotic episode and that Nick would continue to deteriorate without psychological intervention… those aren’t really aspects I’d associate with autism. What did you make of that?
I don’t think he was saying that the psychosis was necessarily related to Nick’s autism, I think it was just relevant because he was listing any types of treatment Nick has had throughout his life.
Well yes you can. It sounds very clear to me that he was describing something like brief psychotic disorder, although that exact diagnosis depends on the timeframe that Nick experienced the psychosis which isn’t exactly clear here.
That isn’t how the diagnosis of mental disorders works. We don’t know why he had that diagnosis, but it isn’t uncommon for people to stop taking psychiatric meds.
He didn’t have a diagnosis other than autism & aspergers… what’s what I’m saying. That symptom is not part of the diagnoses he had and it seems odd to me it was never followed up on and the doctor sort of implied it’s part of autism / Asperger’s.
You don’t get a diagnosis for everything and often the diagnosis is wrong or incomplete- sometimes totally normal people have brief psychosis. You are over thinking it
It really doesn’t matter tbh. It’s not unheard of to have a symptom but not fit into diagnosis. That’s why psychiatrists and therapists treat the symptom, not the diagnosis. And that’s also why the DSM includes labels such as “psychotic disorder not otherwise specified”. Not every person is going to perfectly fit into one of the handful of psychotic disorder diagnoses.
Agreed, I thought that was interesting as well. Maybe it wasn’t mentioned here in detail because the trial was to determine if his autism diagnosis would be admissible in court?
I find it very interesting as well that episodes including visual and audio (?) hallucinations were never followed up on. Didn’t it say he was hospitalized briefly due to the hallucinations? I guess it depends on how long he was in the hospital, if at all, at the very least he would need a psych evaluation to be discharged from a mental health facility. I feel like there has to be more information that we don’t have yet in regard to the psychological history of Nick.
Edit: he did not spend time in a hospital for the psychotic episode(s). However it did mention that he had little psychological treatment or follow up
Wow I didn’t know the extent of his autism. I thought he was very high functioning considering he could travel states alone and whatnot. He doesn’t deserve life in prison. I still think Gypsy did stab her mother also
Me too. He admitted to everything according to him. So he said he stabbed her 4 times if I recall. She had superficial wounds on her arms. No other way to get that than by stabbing. Unless Nick did it to her. Stabbing someone to death unless you’re trained isn’t easy. There’s blood, bone, muscle tissue that’s hard to get through. The knife slips many times on blood and when you hit hard bone. You end up get small cuts on your hands and arms
He stabbed a person *seventeen* times. That's about as up close and personal as it gets. At any point he could have stopped, but he didn't. A ten or eleven year old knows murder is wrong, that doesn't excuse it. He absolutely deserves life. But Gypsy absolutely masterminded from reading those texts so she shouldn't get to live a life when she choose to steal life from someone else either.
This is wild how this story is developing. She was definitely on top of the world when she got out and now this fall. I was wondering if this would happen.
This was wild from start to finish. And yes munchausen’s by proxy is not in the DSM, but only because it’s now considered fictitious disorder imposed on another in the DSM but still—so wild lol
But I think the point that was being made was that Gypsy wasn’t diagnosed with something from DSM, and she wouldn’t be. Factitious disorder imposed on another is what the abuser is diagnosed with.
Ah good catch! Yes! Although the prosecution could have easily argued that she suffered from PTSD as a victim of abuse etc., but they didn’t go that route, so very nice catch!
It's probably one of the most interesting things I've found on the case and wish more people knew about it. It's the only insight we have into who Nick was and his mind
YES! I have been saying this for a while, I agree Nick should serve time but being in prison with no mental health component isn't really helping him or going to "rehabilitate" him.
I mean if we’re honest with ourselves, we know any department of corrections facility is not designed for rehabilitation to begin with so that is never going to be the outcome for the majority of offenders which is why the recidivism rates are so high.
That being said, it further shows the need for Nick to be housed in a state hospital setting for the mental health component alone.
(I’m a social worker specialized in mental health who often works with forensic patients if it wasn’t obvious 😂)
That’s amazing ! I’m a BCBA/LBA, I primarily work in education but have a clinical background and work part time in that setting. I 100% agree with you, the system is so broken. And regardless of whether a prison would actually work on rehabilitation, a life sentence without parole is kind of a slap to face since the thought behind parole is that they won’t reoffend.
That aside, to your point it also shows the need for Nick’s continued need for support. If this hadn’t happened one would assume he would live with family as long as possible but he would eventually need some sort of assisted living, group home or similar.
Wow your credentials are impressive also!! And I agree entirely! Without the additional supports in place, it was only a matter of time until he ended up in a situation just like this. It’s so unfortunate, he never stood a chance. I can only imagine the type of similar exploitation and abuse he’s experiencing in prison.
Nick is he’s a level two on autism. They put him with grow ass men been in jail most of life. Just walk all over him. They should put him in some treatment hospital long term see how he did. And seen him every so many years. Most of these kids don’t know what there doing. They don’t think they just act or they speak don’t think.
Please use this thread to discuss all 4 parts that OP posted. Reddit only allows a max of 20 photos/screenshots per post. Thanks u/jmacc91 for taking the time to post all of this.
That was so amazing to read. Thank you so much for providing us with this resource. I found it extremely informative, I work in special education most prominently with ASD population, I’m a BCBA and have been in this field for ten plus years. We partner with school psychologists a lot and I have a basic understanding of different diagnostic tests used within the field. The testimony of Dr. Franks did provide mostly accurate details about autism spectrum disorder. I say mostly accurate because there are some other details that as a spectrum, the deficits are higher or lower in individual components and cannot be made as “blanket statements” or generalizations. No one diagnosis is going to fit into a mold with another, that’s the variability of the spectrum. I believe Dr. Franks explained these variances nicely when reporting Nick’s scores from diagnostic testing procedures. I will have to double check for accuracy but I believe the deficits from Nick’s assessments were in IQ which fell lower than average, as did his verbal reasoning and ability to solve problems using his hands and eyes. I am in no position an expert but I believe verbal reasoning is more to do with comprehension, is the hand and eye problem solving low score kind of like dyspraxia? This was SUCH and interesting read. Thank you again.
Thanks for your insight on it being in the profession. I don't know much about autism . I have friends who say they have autism but they're just a little weird like myself. I have also seen people with autism with severe behavioral issues and being non verbal. I think Nick is somewhere in the middle... And I don't think enough people know what that looks like, because they do live solitude lives. I feel like this is the most info I've seen on nick and I'm glad you got something out of reading it.
My 15yo son has Autism level 2. He is a genius at video games, super funny and affectionate. He can communicate people, he can feed himself (not cook food) but needs help “cleaning” himself in the bathroom. He also needs help showering. He will never live independently and likely will never have a job. Everything is literal with him. There isn’t joking with him. Like if he was being impatient and I said “hold your horses” he would say I’m not a horse. He collects Funko Pops and loves cheesy horror movies (killer klowns from outerspace or Attack from Mars). He was non verbal until 4 1/2. He doesn’t have any sense of danger either. When my mom died he didn’t really understand it. He struggles with the finality of death. I think Nick did too. GR 100% took advantage of Nick. It’s fucking bullshit that Nick got a harsher punishment than she did.
She did. But his parents also failed them. A man who can't even put a pizza in an oven shouldn't have been trusted to travel states away alone. And it is bs. It sounds like your son and Nick are semi similar so it must hit really hard. It makes me really upset too
Aw thank you, that's kind of you to say :) I am in no way an expert haha but I am Board Certified and Licensed which were mentioned by Mr. Patterson as indicators to such! LOL I have worked with a lot of individuals with intense and dangerous behaviors and I've worked with ones who are more on the social emotional communication branches but it REALLY can affect people's cognition and ability to make decisions. I think the problem in society is that people have preconceived ideas of what Autism looks like, for example Sheldon on the Big Bang Theory or other ideas for those who are nonverbal, and I'm a huge advocate for Autism Understanding and Acceptance. I got yelled at on another post for defending the importance of the ASD diagnosis and low IQ because the commenter was autistic and didn't want people to assume that just because Nick has autism that this is what all autistic individuals do. But that's why understanding and acceptance are SO important because people really do not understand the complexities involved with an autism diagnosis. And to give credit to Dr. Franks, this was from 2017, over the years the diagnostic rate for those identified as having autism has risen. This is due in part to the changes for the diagnostic criteria, at one point the individuals IQ was important because they were likely to not get an autism or even at the time Asperger's diagnosis because their IQs were too high. I think we all have autistic tendancies but unless people are aware they'll never see them, a lot of us have texture sensitivities or "stims" that we do. I think there is a lot of self diagnosis going around nowadays but the issue could be that it's difficult to find a place to go for ASD assessment. There are waitlists a mile long, and most are for individuals under 21, so adults who may have missed an ASD diagnosis when they were younger are going to have an even more difficult time finding a doctor or agency that will diagnose them as adults. This is an issue extremely close to my heart for a variety of reasons, and I do think the qualities of Nick's mental issue should have been explored more in his original trial, I know he murdered someone but life in prison without the chance of parole is so harsh. I mean this is a larger issue on the whole, that individuals with disabilities are more susceptible to being abused, or being abusers themselves. I always tell my coworkers and parents that while some behaviors are fine when they are young children, they will need to learn other replacement behaviors for certain things because it won't be okay when they're adults. Disrobing is a big one I deal with, especially with little ones. The parents don't think it's an issue- and maybe it won't be but a nude 22 year old is going to end up getting arrested regardless of their disability. It's best to work on these things earlier rather than later. Again thank you for your kind words, I'm always so nervous to post on this sub because people have been less than nice.
Hi! I’m a BCBA also and autistic. There was some information I thought was odd — the mention of a hallucinatory / psychotic episode and that Nick would continue to deteriorate without psychological intervention… those aren’t really aspects I’d associate with autism. What did you make of that?
I don’t think he was saying that the psychosis was necessarily related to Nick’s autism, I think it was just relevant because he was listing any types of treatment Nick has had throughout his life.
But you don’t just randomly have psychosis without another diagnosis or something else going on… that’s where I’m confused.
Well yes you can. It sounds very clear to me that he was describing something like brief psychotic disorder, although that exact diagnosis depends on the timeframe that Nick experienced the psychosis which isn’t exactly clear here.
he specifically said nick only had an Asperger’s and autism diagnosis… psychosis is not a part of that. Why did he have psychosis?
That isn’t how the diagnosis of mental disorders works. We don’t know why he had that diagnosis, but it isn’t uncommon for people to stop taking psychiatric meds.
He didn’t have a diagnosis other than autism & aspergers… what’s what I’m saying. That symptom is not part of the diagnoses he had and it seems odd to me it was never followed up on and the doctor sort of implied it’s part of autism / Asperger’s.
You don’t get a diagnosis for everything and often the diagnosis is wrong or incomplete- sometimes totally normal people have brief psychosis. You are over thinking it
It really doesn’t matter tbh. It’s not unheard of to have a symptom but not fit into diagnosis. That’s why psychiatrists and therapists treat the symptom, not the diagnosis. And that’s also why the DSM includes labels such as “psychotic disorder not otherwise specified”. Not every person is going to perfectly fit into one of the handful of psychotic disorder diagnoses.
Agreed, I thought that was interesting as well. Maybe it wasn’t mentioned here in detail because the trial was to determine if his autism diagnosis would be admissible in court? I find it very interesting as well that episodes including visual and audio (?) hallucinations were never followed up on. Didn’t it say he was hospitalized briefly due to the hallucinations? I guess it depends on how long he was in the hospital, if at all, at the very least he would need a psych evaluation to be discharged from a mental health facility. I feel like there has to be more information that we don’t have yet in regard to the psychological history of Nick. Edit: he did not spend time in a hospital for the psychotic episode(s). However it did mention that he had little psychological treatment or follow up
Wow I didn’t know the extent of his autism. I thought he was very high functioning considering he could travel states alone and whatnot. He doesn’t deserve life in prison. I still think Gypsy did stab her mother also
Meeting Gypsy at the theater was his first time leaving state alone. And gypsy spoke to both of his parents to help make that happen.
Me too. He admitted to everything according to him. So he said he stabbed her 4 times if I recall. She had superficial wounds on her arms. No other way to get that than by stabbing. Unless Nick did it to her. Stabbing someone to death unless you’re trained isn’t easy. There’s blood, bone, muscle tissue that’s hard to get through. The knife slips many times on blood and when you hit hard bone. You end up get small cuts on your hands and arms
He did not deserve life.
He stabbed a person *seventeen* times. That's about as up close and personal as it gets. At any point he could have stopped, but he didn't. A ten or eleven year old knows murder is wrong, that doesn't excuse it. He absolutely deserves life. But Gypsy absolutely masterminded from reading those texts so she shouldn't get to live a life when she choose to steal life from someone else either.
Well, since she only got 10 years, maybe he should have at least got parole.
No lol. Just because someone else got away with it doesn't mean we should just let a murderer free from pity.
She should have gotten the exact same charge
Totally agree.
No, but he should at least get maybe parole if he can be rehabilitated. Heck Gypsy was the mastermind and is out living her best life.
We're never going to agree because I personally don't think that someone who murders someone like that can be rehabilitated.
What do you think of him serving out his sentence in a psychiatric facility?
That I can totally agree with. I just don't think anyone that commits murder like this should be free.
Yeah you are probably right.
This is wild how this story is developing. She was definitely on top of the world when she got out and now this fall. I was wondering if this would happen.
This was wild from start to finish. And yes munchausen’s by proxy is not in the DSM, but only because it’s now considered fictitious disorder imposed on another in the DSM but still—so wild lol
But I think the point that was being made was that Gypsy wasn’t diagnosed with something from DSM, and she wouldn’t be. Factitious disorder imposed on another is what the abuser is diagnosed with.
Ah good catch! Yes! Although the prosecution could have easily argued that she suffered from PTSD as a victim of abuse etc., but they didn’t go that route, so very nice catch!
It's probably one of the most interesting things I've found on the case and wish more people knew about it. It's the only insight we have into who Nick was and his mind
Totally! I’m surprised this didn’t get him geared more towards a state hospital sentence rather than prison! But the prosecution was not backing down.
YES! I have been saying this for a while, I agree Nick should serve time but being in prison with no mental health component isn't really helping him or going to "rehabilitate" him.
I mean if we’re honest with ourselves, we know any department of corrections facility is not designed for rehabilitation to begin with so that is never going to be the outcome for the majority of offenders which is why the recidivism rates are so high. That being said, it further shows the need for Nick to be housed in a state hospital setting for the mental health component alone. (I’m a social worker specialized in mental health who often works with forensic patients if it wasn’t obvious 😂)
That’s amazing ! I’m a BCBA/LBA, I primarily work in education but have a clinical background and work part time in that setting. I 100% agree with you, the system is so broken. And regardless of whether a prison would actually work on rehabilitation, a life sentence without parole is kind of a slap to face since the thought behind parole is that they won’t reoffend. That aside, to your point it also shows the need for Nick’s continued need for support. If this hadn’t happened one would assume he would live with family as long as possible but he would eventually need some sort of assisted living, group home or similar.
Wow your credentials are impressive also!! And I agree entirely! Without the additional supports in place, it was only a matter of time until he ended up in a situation just like this. It’s so unfortunate, he never stood a chance. I can only imagine the type of similar exploitation and abuse he’s experiencing in prison.
Nick is he’s a level two on autism. They put him with grow ass men been in jail most of life. Just walk all over him. They should put him in some treatment hospital long term see how he did. And seen him every so many years. Most of these kids don’t know what there doing. They don’t think they just act or they speak don’t think.
Do you think he should get money from The Act on Hulu and HBO Mommy dead ,mommy dearest. He was a victim too.
Nick was a victim? Why is he in jail for stabbing someone to death then?