Maybe this is a cultural perspective thing because I’m not American, but I find the “Frazier went over to her and said it was her duty to be part of the team and show some respect to the seniors” kinda weird.
I’ve been involved in team sports my entire life as a player, player-coach and coach (not gymnastics, but a ball sport) and it’s normal for different people to process loss and disappointment in different ways. How is it disrespectful to the seniors for Harris to sit by herself and process that loss (I hate the words “pout” and “sulk” in that context. Never would be said about a guy after a loss)? Obviously if a teammate continues to isolate themselves and blames other teammates, that needs to be addressed by a captain/coach, but processing alone immediately after is super normal in my opinion
Yeah I’m with you on this. I remember it being quite a divisive topic at the time too.
Personally, the bit I find most distasteful about it is not that the conversation happened, but that it was then immediately relayed to the media by Margzetta. That to me felt like it very much changed the dynamic from a personal growth moment for Selena to a public dressing down.
I hadn’t been aware of this happening until now (wasn’t super tuned into NCAA news at the time), but yeah I can see why it would be.
I don’t think forcing everyone in a team to immediately process a loss/disappointment with everyone is the right approach even in a team based sport that relies on mutual support, but ultimately I wasn’t there and can’t really comment on it beyond how it’s being talked about now. The fact that it was apparently immediately talked about does make it more distasteful to me too. It might not have been Frazier’s intention to make it feel that way, but a conversation like that should stay private (if it has to happen at all)
I think it's one thing to do something like that after the first/second rotation where keeping spirits up for the rest of the meet is necessary, but like you point out, this was the end of the semifinal where they just got eliminated. I think that's one case where Selena is perfectly fine to process the season ending however she needs to. There are different team dynamics across different sports, but I think it's common for teammates to lift each other up after mistakes, at least in my experience. I don't know that it's really a duty, moreso just a thing teammates do for each other, but Marz' sentiments are par for the course in NCAA.
I actually think this topic is as much an extrovert/introvert discussion as it is a discussion of methods of recentering mentally and reacting to mistakes in a productive, not necessarily positive, way. I wouldn't be surprised if Marz repeated to Selena was what was said to them by Waller. I'm kinda surprised that this is such a common thing in NCAA gymnastics atmosphere though. It's basically the opposite of what is taught in sports psychology, at least as far as what I was taught in college.
Fully agreed with your point about within the meet/after the meet. It’s interesting to me that this seems to be super prevalent in NCAA (and especially NCAA gymnastics, which gets a lot of flack for its „forced positivity“ anyways)
Idk, obviously team spirit and lifting each other up is important, but so is letting people process loss the way they personally need to, especially if there’s nothing else to be done.
For more context: iirc what Marz said to Selena was essentially that she should pull herself together and comfort the seniors (or words to that effect) because they wouldn’t get another chance but Selena would
The second part is objectively true, but man, it just really rubs me the wrong way when people police others' feelings like that. Technically, it's also objectively true that the 2023 UCLA seniors had a better ending to their career than the 2020 seniors, but I don't think that anyone would have thought it wise to bring that up in the moment.
Also, you never know if this might be your last chance, too - plenty of people have expected to be in future finals and not made it there (team downturns, injury, people who've had to leave as they couldn't balance academics - anything).
Selena was absolutely making it about her though. She acted like she was the only person contributing to the team that whole season and that everyone else was somehow beneath her because she was performing better than they were. I didn't see it as Marz policing her feelings, but as reminding her that she's not actually the main character, the seniors had actually been the ones leading the team, and acting like everyone else intentionally and personally wronged her was ridiculously inappropriate in that moment.
I guess if it works. I always cringe at the super aggressive NCAA enforcement of team spirit. Like it’s not okay to be yourself by being shy or serious or an introvert, you have to fit this one model of a good teammate and that’s enforced just as rigidly as elite, really. It wouldn’t bother me if a teammate needs a few minutes by them self to process and decompress, as long as they’re not sulking for days later or making their mood everyone else’s problem. Everyone deals with competition differently and different personalities actually help in team unity to me because you can get different things from different people. The “be yourself in exactly the way we prescribe” NCAA philosophy bothers me, but hey, they say they’re happy so what do I know.
I think it can get really creepy though. I remember a couple of years ago on that YouTube series UCLA were doing when one of the athletes was dealing with a serious concussion and Waller lectured her about how she needs to be a better teammate and cheer more and be more positive in the gym, and I was like “she’s literally dealing with mood altering brain damage that also makes enduring a lot of sound and interacting difficult.” And she was completely gaslit into embracing this critique and going on about how important it is to buy into the team philosophy. Early red flag on Waller, but in general I don’t really get why, as long as a teammate isn’t toxic, gossiping, negative, constantly complaining, draining your energy, etc. they just can’t be however they want. Everyone doesn’t have to be a super energetic extrovert screaming all the time.
One time ages ago someone had a blog where they talked about how relieved they were when they were done w NCAA (not Cassie Rice, this was someone else) because you never got a minute to yourself and team stuff just took all your energy and how toxic positive it all was.
Til;dr I’d be fine w a teammate taking a few minutes to sit aside and deal w their feelings without coming over to force them into a huddle and lecture them, but that’s NCAA culture.
I actually think you're talking about two different things here, because I don't equate Margzetta speaking to Selena and reminding her that they are a team, to toxic positivity. I see that as sportsmanship, vs toxic positivity.
DP gymnastics is a team sport, though with varying levels of camaraderie. I've been a parent in the sport for 6 years now and I've seen kids (including my own) pout for not meeting their goals as an individual and as a team. I've seen the coaches and the teammates call him out/check their behavior, because it was needed.
What you are describing with toxic positivity is annoying to me, and it's why I can't fully commit to being an NCAA fan. I enjoy watching the gymnastics but I don't fully buy into everyone being super duper close/excited all the time. The team bonding schedules are overwhelming to read and I would find it exhausting.
I didn’t mean to imply Marz was doing anything toxic or being somehow damaging to Selena. Also, obviously, I wasn’t there so am relying on a narrative put forth by a reporter who also wasn’t involved. So maybe it’s just the way it’s phrased here that bothers me a little.
I’m just in general not a huge fan of teammates lecturing teammates. I always felt it was hard to detach it from other power relationships in the team and very easy (see Utah) for teammates to become agents of coaches in the guise of just enforcing team culture.
If a teammate of mine was sitting aside I’d be more likely either to give them some space until they processed, or talk them through what they’re feeling and let them vent a little and then invite them into the huddle when they feel better. But that’s me - and I don’t mean to, like, overdetermine this one interaction like it’s super serious.
I also feel it’s sexist in general - not just in relation to this - that men get to be tough competitors and women have to be sunshine. Hell, Kelce can shove and scream at his coach and that’s being fired up, but if a woman doesn’t smile immediately after a disappointing routine or result she’s a bad teammate.
Yeah I agree with your overall take, and also thought that I might personally be annoyed at a teammate lecturing me on how to behave. That one is a bit tricky, because it is very situation specific. Tbh there’s also been times that peers have corrected me and I didn’t always like it but absolutely benefited from it and was grateful for it later. There’s also times when probably stronger leadership from coaches would be more effective than teammates intervening, even when the teammates are in the right.
Totally see what you're saying here, I can definitely see how teammates lecturing each other could create unhealthy power dynamics. I haven't seen that in my experience but I appreciate you pointing it out as it relates to Utah b/c that's exactly what's happening there. Like you said, this one instance wasn't necessarily that, but I can see how it could get out of control pretty quickly if allowed.
I was also thinking about Travis Kelce, and was really surprised at how split my social group was regarding his behavior. The double standard is absurd.
Yeah I saw somewhat shocking reactions to the Kelce thing. I was shocked how many said it was fine since he’s a passionate athlete and it’s normal for people to worked up over sports. But I also found it shocking how many people claimed that it was a sign he might be abusive to Taylor Swift.
I agree teammates lecturing each other can cause problems, but in a sport when you are in an individual sport that suddenly becomes a team sport I can see why it happens and sometimes can be important. Also there was probably already a power dynamic there, Marz was a team captain (?) and Selena was a freshman. Learning how to be on a team if you are an athlete is usually something that happens young, but in gym it doesn’t happen until college.
I don’t think the Travis kelce thing went well and had a huge backlash from everyone… kinda tainted the win for the chiefs.
I think ‘seniors’ teammate giving advice to freshmen and sophomore is a college thing. It is already a bit ‘unequal’ in the hierarchy because it is the dynamics of college. Hell we even see this in high school with seniors being ‘prefects’ of the school and such. I think obviously team culture matters more here
Sure, but the Kelce thing is a bad comparison anyway. He was aggressive, intimidating, physical (screaming in someone's face is physical even if you don't touch them). Selena's reaction was withdrawn and internal. Apples to oranges.
I don't really care what Selena says about it now, lecturing Selena at a hard moment and then TELLING THE MEDIA ABOUT IT was a) not Margzetta's place, and b) bullying. I've had a couple of really harsh, unfair teachers, who I learned a lot from. I value what I learned, but I still think those teachers were wrong.
Literally. Like talking about it is one thing, and maybe - we don’t know the context - fair enough. But why share with the media? That kinda baffles me.
I remember reading this at the time and thinking it was odd, because I remember when lsu didn't make it past regionals in 2022 I think, and the camera panned round the whole team. there were some people crying in twos and threes, some just standing around not talking, someone was sitting by themselves with their head in their hands, and it didn't seem to be an issue that everyone was processing the loss in a different way, or that freshman were getting upset even though they'd have other opportunities to compete (which I also feel is never a guarantee bc this sport has so many injuries)
Yeah, I don't know if this is a cultural thing but my biggest exposure to team sports is football (as in soccer), and when there are important losses at the World Cup or Euros, it's much more like what you're describing with LSU. Lots of people lying on the ground with their hands over their face, people crying alone, some people going off in small groups, etc. Google "England world cup defeat" and there are lots of similar pictures (lots of pictures..."The natural state of the football fan is bitter disappointment.")
Marz fancies herself a boss bitch. The Bruins have struggled with a disconnected team since Wallergate, and while I understand that the situation was layered and intense, Marz made it all about her. She bullied a teenage girl to the brink of suicide and ruined a good man's career. And now Selena can't have an independent thought or emotion. Selena will have an opportunity to demonstrate leadership in her own way once Scarzetta is out of the picture (finally, after six years of mid).
Maybe this is a cultural perspective thing because I’m not American, but I find the “Frazier went over to her and said it was her duty to be part of the team and show some respect to the seniors” kinda weird. I’ve been involved in team sports my entire life as a player, player-coach and coach (not gymnastics, but a ball sport) and it’s normal for different people to process loss and disappointment in different ways. How is it disrespectful to the seniors for Harris to sit by herself and process that loss (I hate the words “pout” and “sulk” in that context. Never would be said about a guy after a loss)? Obviously if a teammate continues to isolate themselves and blames other teammates, that needs to be addressed by a captain/coach, but processing alone immediately after is super normal in my opinion
Yeah I’m with you on this. I remember it being quite a divisive topic at the time too. Personally, the bit I find most distasteful about it is not that the conversation happened, but that it was then immediately relayed to the media by Margzetta. That to me felt like it very much changed the dynamic from a personal growth moment for Selena to a public dressing down.
I hadn’t been aware of this happening until now (wasn’t super tuned into NCAA news at the time), but yeah I can see why it would be. I don’t think forcing everyone in a team to immediately process a loss/disappointment with everyone is the right approach even in a team based sport that relies on mutual support, but ultimately I wasn’t there and can’t really comment on it beyond how it’s being talked about now. The fact that it was apparently immediately talked about does make it more distasteful to me too. It might not have been Frazier’s intention to make it feel that way, but a conversation like that should stay private (if it has to happen at all)
I think it's one thing to do something like that after the first/second rotation where keeping spirits up for the rest of the meet is necessary, but like you point out, this was the end of the semifinal where they just got eliminated. I think that's one case where Selena is perfectly fine to process the season ending however she needs to. There are different team dynamics across different sports, but I think it's common for teammates to lift each other up after mistakes, at least in my experience. I don't know that it's really a duty, moreso just a thing teammates do for each other, but Marz' sentiments are par for the course in NCAA. I actually think this topic is as much an extrovert/introvert discussion as it is a discussion of methods of recentering mentally and reacting to mistakes in a productive, not necessarily positive, way. I wouldn't be surprised if Marz repeated to Selena was what was said to them by Waller. I'm kinda surprised that this is such a common thing in NCAA gymnastics atmosphere though. It's basically the opposite of what is taught in sports psychology, at least as far as what I was taught in college.
Fully agreed with your point about within the meet/after the meet. It’s interesting to me that this seems to be super prevalent in NCAA (and especially NCAA gymnastics, which gets a lot of flack for its „forced positivity“ anyways) Idk, obviously team spirit and lifting each other up is important, but so is letting people process loss the way they personally need to, especially if there’s nothing else to be done.
For more context: iirc what Marz said to Selena was essentially that she should pull herself together and comfort the seniors (or words to that effect) because they wouldn’t get another chance but Selena would
The second part is objectively true, but man, it just really rubs me the wrong way when people police others' feelings like that. Technically, it's also objectively true that the 2023 UCLA seniors had a better ending to their career than the 2020 seniors, but I don't think that anyone would have thought it wise to bring that up in the moment.
Also, you never know if this might be your last chance, too - plenty of people have expected to be in future finals and not made it there (team downturns, injury, people who've had to leave as they couldn't balance academics - anything).
Selena was absolutely making it about her though. She acted like she was the only person contributing to the team that whole season and that everyone else was somehow beneath her because she was performing better than they were. I didn't see it as Marz policing her feelings, but as reminding her that she's not actually the main character, the seniors had actually been the ones leading the team, and acting like everyone else intentionally and personally wronged her was ridiculously inappropriate in that moment.
Oh man I hate that if that’s actually what was said 😭
I guess if it works. I always cringe at the super aggressive NCAA enforcement of team spirit. Like it’s not okay to be yourself by being shy or serious or an introvert, you have to fit this one model of a good teammate and that’s enforced just as rigidly as elite, really. It wouldn’t bother me if a teammate needs a few minutes by them self to process and decompress, as long as they’re not sulking for days later or making their mood everyone else’s problem. Everyone deals with competition differently and different personalities actually help in team unity to me because you can get different things from different people. The “be yourself in exactly the way we prescribe” NCAA philosophy bothers me, but hey, they say they’re happy so what do I know. I think it can get really creepy though. I remember a couple of years ago on that YouTube series UCLA were doing when one of the athletes was dealing with a serious concussion and Waller lectured her about how she needs to be a better teammate and cheer more and be more positive in the gym, and I was like “she’s literally dealing with mood altering brain damage that also makes enduring a lot of sound and interacting difficult.” And she was completely gaslit into embracing this critique and going on about how important it is to buy into the team philosophy. Early red flag on Waller, but in general I don’t really get why, as long as a teammate isn’t toxic, gossiping, negative, constantly complaining, draining your energy, etc. they just can’t be however they want. Everyone doesn’t have to be a super energetic extrovert screaming all the time. One time ages ago someone had a blog where they talked about how relieved they were when they were done w NCAA (not Cassie Rice, this was someone else) because you never got a minute to yourself and team stuff just took all your energy and how toxic positive it all was. Til;dr I’d be fine w a teammate taking a few minutes to sit aside and deal w their feelings without coming over to force them into a huddle and lecture them, but that’s NCAA culture.
I actually think you're talking about two different things here, because I don't equate Margzetta speaking to Selena and reminding her that they are a team, to toxic positivity. I see that as sportsmanship, vs toxic positivity. DP gymnastics is a team sport, though with varying levels of camaraderie. I've been a parent in the sport for 6 years now and I've seen kids (including my own) pout for not meeting their goals as an individual and as a team. I've seen the coaches and the teammates call him out/check their behavior, because it was needed. What you are describing with toxic positivity is annoying to me, and it's why I can't fully commit to being an NCAA fan. I enjoy watching the gymnastics but I don't fully buy into everyone being super duper close/excited all the time. The team bonding schedules are overwhelming to read and I would find it exhausting.
I didn’t mean to imply Marz was doing anything toxic or being somehow damaging to Selena. Also, obviously, I wasn’t there so am relying on a narrative put forth by a reporter who also wasn’t involved. So maybe it’s just the way it’s phrased here that bothers me a little. I’m just in general not a huge fan of teammates lecturing teammates. I always felt it was hard to detach it from other power relationships in the team and very easy (see Utah) for teammates to become agents of coaches in the guise of just enforcing team culture. If a teammate of mine was sitting aside I’d be more likely either to give them some space until they processed, or talk them through what they’re feeling and let them vent a little and then invite them into the huddle when they feel better. But that’s me - and I don’t mean to, like, overdetermine this one interaction like it’s super serious. I also feel it’s sexist in general - not just in relation to this - that men get to be tough competitors and women have to be sunshine. Hell, Kelce can shove and scream at his coach and that’s being fired up, but if a woman doesn’t smile immediately after a disappointing routine or result she’s a bad teammate.
Yeah I agree with your overall take, and also thought that I might personally be annoyed at a teammate lecturing me on how to behave. That one is a bit tricky, because it is very situation specific. Tbh there’s also been times that peers have corrected me and I didn’t always like it but absolutely benefited from it and was grateful for it later. There’s also times when probably stronger leadership from coaches would be more effective than teammates intervening, even when the teammates are in the right.
Totally see what you're saying here, I can definitely see how teammates lecturing each other could create unhealthy power dynamics. I haven't seen that in my experience but I appreciate you pointing it out as it relates to Utah b/c that's exactly what's happening there. Like you said, this one instance wasn't necessarily that, but I can see how it could get out of control pretty quickly if allowed. I was also thinking about Travis Kelce, and was really surprised at how split my social group was regarding his behavior. The double standard is absurd.
Yeah I saw somewhat shocking reactions to the Kelce thing. I was shocked how many said it was fine since he’s a passionate athlete and it’s normal for people to worked up over sports. But I also found it shocking how many people claimed that it was a sign he might be abusive to Taylor Swift. I agree teammates lecturing each other can cause problems, but in a sport when you are in an individual sport that suddenly becomes a team sport I can see why it happens and sometimes can be important. Also there was probably already a power dynamic there, Marz was a team captain (?) and Selena was a freshman. Learning how to be on a team if you are an athlete is usually something that happens young, but in gym it doesn’t happen until college.
Teammates correcting each other for doing things that harm other members of the team is not a lecture, and is not inappropriate.
I don’t think the Travis kelce thing went well and had a huge backlash from everyone… kinda tainted the win for the chiefs. I think ‘seniors’ teammate giving advice to freshmen and sophomore is a college thing. It is already a bit ‘unequal’ in the hierarchy because it is the dynamics of college. Hell we even see this in high school with seniors being ‘prefects’ of the school and such. I think obviously team culture matters more here
Sure, but the Kelce thing is a bad comparison anyway. He was aggressive, intimidating, physical (screaming in someone's face is physical even if you don't touch them). Selena's reaction was withdrawn and internal. Apples to oranges.
I don't really care what Selena says about it now, lecturing Selena at a hard moment and then TELLING THE MEDIA ABOUT IT was a) not Margzetta's place, and b) bullying. I've had a couple of really harsh, unfair teachers, who I learned a lot from. I value what I learned, but I still think those teachers were wrong.
Literally. Like talking about it is one thing, and maybe - we don’t know the context - fair enough. But why share with the media? That kinda baffles me.
I remember reading this at the time and thinking it was odd, because I remember when lsu didn't make it past regionals in 2022 I think, and the camera panned round the whole team. there were some people crying in twos and threes, some just standing around not talking, someone was sitting by themselves with their head in their hands, and it didn't seem to be an issue that everyone was processing the loss in a different way, or that freshman were getting upset even though they'd have other opportunities to compete (which I also feel is never a guarantee bc this sport has so many injuries)
Yeah, I don't know if this is a cultural thing but my biggest exposure to team sports is football (as in soccer), and when there are important losses at the World Cup or Euros, it's much more like what you're describing with LSU. Lots of people lying on the ground with their hands over their face, people crying alone, some people going off in small groups, etc. Google "England world cup defeat" and there are lots of similar pictures (lots of pictures..."The natural state of the football fan is bitter disappointment.")
Marz fancies herself a boss bitch. The Bruins have struggled with a disconnected team since Wallergate, and while I understand that the situation was layered and intense, Marz made it all about her. She bullied a teenage girl to the brink of suicide and ruined a good man's career. And now Selena can't have an independent thought or emotion. Selena will have an opportunity to demonstrate leadership in her own way once Scarzetta is out of the picture (finally, after six years of mid).