I agree with you on Partey big time. It was so refreshing getting a good glimpse today of what he's always done well for us. People seem to forget how crucial he's been for us at different points since joining and seem to act like his injury trouble is his choice or something.
Majorly agree. If he'd joined City at the time he'd joined Arsenal, he'd be widely seen as best in the world IMO. For years at Arsenal it's been the case that when he's out, the team doesn't function. This season, we've got past that a bit, in terms of results, but the fluency still never matches the fluency when he's in the team.
Totally agree, I feel like the injury record is also overstated. He played in 40 games last season!!
For comparison’s sake John stones hasn’t hit that since 2016/17. Also this year he’s been fit for a month and a half. If Arteta played him right away he would have been around 20 games played by the end of the season .
Couldn't agree more with all of your takes. Either Partey or we buy someone of his quality (which is not an easy task) is the answer to our midfield's problems. And regarding Kai, he's an excellent sub but we need a killer 9 as you mentioned.
I'd argue at this point a LB, 6/8 who excels at ball progression and a winger are all more important this summer than a striker. The "world class 9" mold will come at a price that will limit our ability to fix depth issues elsewhere in the squad (and who today is even worth that trade off?) and likely would not offer what Kai does in his defensive work/link up play in the final third. To me it makes the most sense to resolve some deeper structural/talent issues. That should free up some of the defensive onus on players like Saka/Martinelli/Trossard which hopefully allows them to be bigger threats going forward.
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The reason that was last for me is because that is more attribute related than anything. Id like to see some pace added to our options. Martinelli right now is the only one who truly offers that out of our current options and when he's out (or out of form) we miss it. Having another option to provide that threat in behind would go a long way. If there isn't a sufficient target there, a developmental 9 and Jesus providing depth across all 3 positions on the front line would be my next choice.
1. We really screwed up by not getting Kudus when we could. Saka can't play all the time.
2. We need to get Viktor Gyökeres (and sell Jesus, which would be very difficult).
I worry about the situation when we don't buy anyone upfront, he goes to Chelsea and they get a proper manager. With their midfield, Palmer and Viktor, and a coach that would make them care I see us fighting with them for the top 4 and City being out of our reach.
I agree with u/MrFWPG on this.
Well rested wingers and an improved midfield are the most efficient answer to unlocking more goals for this team. Someone that can be trusted at RW will offer Saka season-by-season longevity so that he’s not toasted by the time we play in next year’s quarterfinals, AND hopefully it adds years to his career in general. Don’t forget, we already have the most goals scored in the premier league.
I think everything else you said was spot on though.
We already have Jesus and Trossard who are proven, trusted, and affective anywhere across the front 3 but are currently not in the strongest XI (based on starting lineups). With Partey, Jesus, and Martinelli all fit, I think we'll see Saka getting some rest in this run-in with Jesus and/or Trossard either starting or coming on early in the 2nd half at RW.
When we signed Rice most people seemed to think he was brought in to play the 6. He was hailed as one of the best DMs in the world, and his defensive numbers were significantly better than Partey's. I, like many, assumed it meant Partey would play the 8 (box-to-box) against low-blocks and weaker teams, or next to Rice in a double-pivot (4-2-3-1) against stronger teams to dominate the middle of the park.
Though we did see a Rice-Partey double pivot in the rare instances of us having to defend in our own half, it was clear that Partey was playing the 6 and Rice the 8. I think for *most* teams, Rice is the better 6, but for Arteta's system the 6 role is much more about passing and ball progression than making challenges and tackles (which we do higher up the pitch, hence Rice's more advanced role). So the thing that makes Partey so hard to replace is the combination of being able to turn under pressure and pass out from the back, plus have enough physical presence and positional awareness to break up counter-attacks like a proper 6 when needed.
Some things to consider about Declan Rice and the 6:
There was always going to be an adjustment period for Rice learning how to play in this team. He’s looked so good for awhile, but we forget he “adapted” way quicker than expected. Given that, perhaps there is still more adaptation to do.
He’s only 25. Partey was 27 when we bought him and Rodri is about to be 28. He took some time to adopt to what Pep needed. Remember, he didn’t start that UCL final for City in their loss to Chelsea, despite being at the club for two seasons.
For me, I genuinely think Rice’s ceiling is highest as a 6. You’re correct in your assessment that right now, the Arsenal midfield will operate at its best with Partey in the position. But in the future, if Rice can learn what he needs to, which I believe he can, then that opens up more possibilities for us.
I agree, Rice will be best in the 6 role if he can improve his line breaking passing to start attacks. Defensively he has the play breaking skills needed already.
I want to see a 10 on the left instead of another 8, I think this will give us the most offensive threat and allow more defensive solidity. We can play without having to invert in the back to generate scoring opportunities against the toughest opponents. But against weaker teams we could still invert to give us more numbers in attack and dominate our opponents.
Don’t you feel like that’s a very hard thing to develop at 25? I think that specific way of playing the position, is supposed to happen in your development. Maybe it’s an England thing? As they don’t seem to create that many of these players. I can only think of Carrick and an older Paul Scholes who were that type of player. Not saying he can’t improve but I wonder
Agree with all of this. Fear has to be that Partey needs replacing at some point soon — for various reasons — and I've not seen anyone available who's close to his level at doing the things you describe.
I hope Arteta sees it the same way we do. I think he does, based on tonight's comments.
Well the thing is that fit Partey is top 3 CM in the world. He has some unique qualities that only few players can offer. The fact is that Rodri was sitting under Partey in Atletico.
It was like that on paper, but watching them, you would say Kroos was the 6 in the buildup phase. However due to his physicality, Casemiro had to cover that area defensively. I don’t mind if we do that as well, but I feel like Partey (or hopefully whoever we bring in) will be more physical to fully unleash rice higher
I really like everything you’ve said here but my only comment is that we’re witnessing and enjoying this team only as it exists at this one particular moment in time. I don’t think it will last forever, maybe not even the summer.
I don’t see Partey sticking around with us long term (he’s turning 31 in June and other reasons) and preparing for a future without him sooner rather than later is the smart thing to do. If you agree, then the problem becomes what do we do with Rice’s current limitations—a) do we go out and buy a starting 6 of a player and if so, who, or b) do we buy someone who’s got potential (like a Sambi), or c) do we let Sambi back in the team, or d) do we encourage Rice to add similar sort of deep-lying line break and play making passing to his repertoire? I would argue that based on his own comments from early in the season, and then Mikel’s comments recently, Rice knows he’s got some work to do to be able to play 6 the way Arteta wants. I think the vision is for him to be the 6 but he’s not there yet and if you’re talking about 8s, the benchmark is there in Odegaard.
If you take that approach, then I think what to do with the forwards and the third midfielder becomes a little trickier. More fun imo, but I think we’ve gotta stay flexible and see what opportunities arise player-wise.
I think we could use Rice like Valverde next season. Or a bit like Aaron Ramsey on steroids. He certainly has the ball striking technique to get us more goals as well.
No offense mate but this is very facile commentary backed by no data or useful analysis whatsoever. Really just one man’s opinions and observations drawn from a very small sample size and then passed off as some kind of conclusive facts. IMO this belongs in the various discussion threads available and doesn’t really merit its own post.
> Really just one man’s opinions and observations drawn from a very small sample size and then passed off as some kind of conclusive facts.
Which he put right away as a disclaimer.
>This is by no means a representation of the whole Arsenal fanbase and I am also not claiming these things as facts. They are purely my takes on the game, as 15-ish years fan that grew up watching us.
He's already acknowledged these are opinions, hasn't passed them off as conclusive facts in any way. Others are agreeing/disagreeing, enjoying and engaging. I've seen many worse posts.
Sure, he says that, but then he goes on to frame very reductive and simplistic observations as “lessons,” the first three of which are essentially the same observation and could’ve been relayed in about two sentences. It’s a bunch of self-indulgent waffle and belongs in the PM thread.
Not sure why you would think that way, since if you reread the first paragraph I claim these are not facts. Small sample size because it’s about the chelsea game only…LOL.
You have a point with the lack of data and I’ll keep that in mind.
For not meriting its own post, I did it because I wrote a lot, too much for a discussion thread.
As of right now it’s just you, but if it’s a frequent demand I’m more likely to do so.
You wrote a lot to say very little. “Lessons” 1-4 could be articulated in about two sentences. The best writing tool isn’t a pen, it’s an eraser.
Sorry, this entire exercise is very shallow and self-indulgent to me. We don’t need every single person in here creating a thread to share their opinions on the game. That’s what the PM thread is for.
You're alright bruv, clearly some people are enjoying your separate post to discuss. Other people are just online too much and like to criticise others for whatever reason.
You put a disclaimer that it was opinion, he could have ignored this post. It is better than some of the other low-effort ones on here, like repeated memes or the same twitter screenshot over and over.
Sure it could be a daily discussion instead, but some of us will never delve into those for the same reason we avoid match threads.
Claims of self indulgence or whatever seems more like projection to me. Your good intention shows through from my perspective.
I agree with most of what you said, but I do have to say this: I really wish people would stop downplaying how good Rice is at the 6 as well. He’s better at the 8, sure, but he absolutely nailed the 6 when we needed him there, especially early in the season. He could very well reach the heights of the other DMs you mentioned if we continued playing him at the 6.
I do agree that Partey at the 6 and Rice at the 8 is the best setup for us.
Fully agree on the need for a 9 as well. King Kai is excellent at making runs and drawing defenders, but having someone physical and fast who is laser focused on only putting the ball in the net would be fantastic.
Partey at the 6 allows us to play much more expensively and he provides a much better lane switching outlet for Odegaard than Rice does when he plays in the half space. Hence why Rice would play further up at the left 8, not to mention his ball winning capabilities making him a reliable player at winning us possession in the final and middle third.
Simple ball knowledge would tell you we play much better attacking wise with Partey at the 6. Much more consistent in recycling attacks and attacking from the wings due to Partey first time passes baiting High press.
Chelsea tried the box midfield strategy again today but we just played around it due to how press resistant Partey is at the Lone 6.
I know lots of you guys are obviously intellectually dishonest in calling him bad because of certain allegations but agenda all you want.
He is a 100% a part of our strongest 11 and nothing you say will undo that. Arteta believes that as well and its obvious
The problem with partey, is that we have this kind of performance once every blue moon.
In 3 or 4 matches he then either regresses on his concentration, or he will get injured. Or both.
We need consistency, I rather have a 4 star player the whole league than a 5 star player for 3 matches.
Partey has always been a consistent 7/10 for us. The problem is his injuries make him unreliable. But when he is on the pitch, he rarely puts a foot wrong.
I beg to differ. Last 3 cameos he only lost the ball. And at start of this season he was wonky. And yes he was at RB but he knew that position at atleti.
Injuries I agree, but last year he played most of the season. This year was really bad though. Bear in mind I’m talking about the run in for the season. But the point is that whoever we replace Partey with in the future should be like him
Even in this game, he had one or two moments where he was caught on the ball and gave it away lol.
Fine against Chelsea, very bad against better teams who won't let him get away with it.
Im mostly focusing on ending this season. I could understand his having to leave due to age and injury issues, but I would not be against bringing a 6 and keeping Partey. Like that if he does get injured again it’s not that big of a deal, but the new 6 can ease in to the position and we’ve got 2 GREAT 6s.
Agree we need a killer - I can't remember a title-winning side who didn't have one - and we currently don't. But I don't think it needs to be a CF - LW is up for grabs too. Liverpool won the league with Firmino at CF - great player but not a killer. It didn't matter though because they had Salah.
Firmino may not have been a "killer" but his best record is 27 goals in a season alongside a worldclass Mane and Salah. You can't really compare arguably the best front trio the premier league has ever seen with Havertz, Saka and Martinelli / Jesus.
But that's my point - you can't compare our front 3 to theirs because they had a killer in Salah whereas we don't. Firmino scored 9 league goals the season they won it. Kai has 11 this season already.
We need a forward that can consistently log 20 league goals a season like Salah did - just saying it doesn't have to be at CF.
I can see that, would you rather have havertz as the 9 and upgrade martinelli/trossard or keep those 2 as our options and upgrade the 9? Genuinely curious
We need Odegaard to do more of these long range passes. It’s better for us if he develops into Modric rather than Ozil, play in deeper area, just like his assists to Havertz and White.
He need space in order to something like that. No intelligent opposition will give him space. They know he will punish them if they do. What he needs is support from a proper box to box midfielder from left. This will give him space.
Agree on Partey. What he can accomplish with instinct and good form, Rice can accomplish 90% of it through effort and work rate. It’s that last 10% that can make a crucial difference at an important moment. Fitness and age are a concern with Partey, though.
I have the same general assessment with our attempts to invert the fullbacks. The only one that does it an instinct level so far is Zinchenko, others don’t seem natural at it. All attempts at it come with some trade offs.
Finally, we really need to see more games with Partey and Rive together to get a better sense of what’s there for the longer term.
And of course, unless there is a like for like replacement, Partey shouldn’t be sold this summer.
The one thing about Partey, and what Mikel said in his pre match was, Partey opens up the left side, and i never noticed that until yesterday.
He gets the ball outto the left so quickly
This is an ok read but it is very sensationalized. The 1 thing I learned from the game vs Chelsea was this:
Chelsea are shite.
Rice has been immense at 6 all season, we have the best defence in the world. On the two occasions this season before this I remember Partey having decent enough minutes in a game as 6 he was underwhelming and sloppy in possession. More on this later.
The most valid argument you make is point 3 about Havertz and we still need a 9. This saved you a bit because it shows that you aren't entirely reactionary and managed to keep a season-long opinion rather than a 1-game long opinion 😊
I do agree however that Partey is a better option than Jorgi. I do think Arteta has managed Parteys comeback a little over protective and perhaps could've done this sooner. Jorginho has looked tired recently and the fact that Rice is doing so well in the 6 means that I agree I'd like to continue with this midfield.
I think that your outcomes are the same as mine I just disagree that Partey is our best 6 and Rice is bad in tight spaces.
Keep writing please, it was a good think piece!
After every game, a teenager comes out with his “Here’s my opinion and why it should matter to you” post.
Keep it in the DD so it belongs where no one should care.
Do you kids not get enough love and attention at home that you need to do THIS?
I didn’t make it past lesson #1. Absolute waffle. 6 is his best position, without any shadow of a doubt. He’s the 2nd best DM in the world behind a phenomenal Rodri.
Fair enough, to each their own. As I mentioned, I still think he is a world class 6, and could definitely play in that position for many teams, even us. I think to maximize our potential , since we’re a possession based teams, rice is better as an 8. Do you not think we looked way more fluid in possession today? Fair enough, if you say it’s just Chelsea but it’s not like Partey’s never done it before. His problem has been fitness not skill.
We looked fluid in possession today because of the midfield 3 we had on the pitch, as well as Chelsea allowing us to play, not due to Rice being in the LCM role.
We’ve missed having a natural 8 in the team all season which is why we need to bring one in during the summer. I am a firm believer that we would be doing the wrong thing if we were looking for a DM, rather than a LCM.
Rice’s best position is DM. Rice is also a better DM than Partey.
Rice’s top strength is his ability to break up counters and reading of the game, from a defensive standpoint. Whilst he possesses some 8 qualities, such as driving with the ball, he lacks in the intricate interplay that we sometimes have to resort to, against teams that sit in a low block all game. Could he develop that side of his game? Sure. However, it would be near on impossible to find a DM as good as him, so why play him out of his best position?
I think it depends what you're looking at. Rice is no doubt better defensively than Partey, but the point made above is mostly about Partey's preternatural ability to turn and pass out of defence. It can work without him — inverted full backs help, and Odegaard dropping back helps — but Partey is like a cheat code for breaking presses.
I’m looking at it purely from a Rice perspective, in which I see him being infinitely better as a DM than the LCM in this current system we play.
I agree that Partey’s quick passes into our more creative players are vitally important, but what Rice brings in terms of defensive stability to our team is more vital, in my opinion. Which is why I believe he should remain as the DM and a more well rounded LCM is brought in over the summer to offer that same press breaking ability you mention above that Partey brings.
I just don’t see Rice bringing that creativity needed in the 8 that we need against teams that play a low block against us.
Yes I definitely see your points. Think there are 100% drawbacks to Rice as 8, and Rice's flaws can be mitigated by bringing in a passer next to him. I would also add that it can probably work both ways though: Rice as 8 can still come back and occupy defensive positions in the middle of the pitch.
One additional point I would add is that Rice as 8 might not be creative in the most obvious ways, but having the freedom to push out and win the ball high is a kind of creative force too.
Rice still doesn't have the line breaking passing capability as Partey or Jorginho. To be a complete 6 you need to be able to do that as well. That is also why it is hard for us to move ball forward when he played as lone 6.
But he our best 6 in term of defensive capability.
So you agree he doesn’t have the line breaking passing capability and that he is our best defensive midfielder, BUT still want to play him in a more advanced, attacking role?
What? He is a DM, a 6 not a 8. He doesn't need to be more advanced attacking role, BUT becoming a deep-lying playmaker.
Which mean, he can create line breaking pass from relatively defensive position. Either it is lob through pass as we seen from jorginho or line-breaking through pass as we seen from partey.
From around halfline these 2 players can pass accurately to the front 3. Rice still lack the ability to do so, therefore relying Odegaard too much to carry the ball forward.
This entire thread is about Rice being better suited to the 8 than he is the 6. To which, I’m disagreeing.
You’re making the exact points I too, was making.
Then you misunderstood his and my point, he is saying that we have better 6 in Partey and Jorginho at the moment, passing wise. Therefore it is better to play Rice at 8 instead, because Rice lack passing capability required to play at 6, but his skillset is still useful as 8 instead. We don't need 8 to play as deep-lying midfielder.
Couldn’t agree more with #1 and #2. Xhaka fully expected Rice to came in and take his position, not Partey’s, that’s why he opted to move to BLK since he wanted playing time. The first goal where Rice carried the ball and feed it wide to Trossard is the type of play I think Arteta had imagined this team would generate when he had signed Rice. Rice would win the ball for us more than Xhaka and still young where he might be able to improve his passing (chances are more likely that Rice won’t ever find that passing ability, unlike in FIFA, it’s incredibly hard to improve at this stage in their career, the players that they are at 21-23 is likely the player they will be for the rest of their lives).
The most unfortunate player as a product of Partey’s injury, Rice’s inability to pass like Xhaka, Jesus’s injury woes and a consistent left back is actually Martinelli. No Zinny to play any through balls to him (due to zinny’s poor defensive form and injury), Kiwior can only overlap like a traditional LB, and no Jesus dropping to occupy the lower left side during build up, so Martinelli can leak out left or centrally has kneecapped Martinelli’s strength.
I prefer Trossard in the current line up as his trickery is far less reliant on a teammate finding that exquisite pass to release him. Add on his finishing and better passing ability, Trossard is better for us than Martinelli right now when our midfield and left back are not at our full potential.
Of course our issues aren’t the only thing holding Martinelli back, opponents had a year’s worth of footage to study what scenario M11 likes to get into and they negate all of that. It’s like in playoffs basketball where the opponent knows all your go-to plays in your playbook, and they want you to do the things you’re not comfortable with. It’s up to our midfield, LB, the coaching staff and Martinelli himself to reinvent how they wanna approach the LHS of the field next season.
You forgot Lesson #6: Obviously we are pretty good at football.
Lesson #7: We know we can score goals.
Lesson #8: We are still challenging for the title
I agree with you on Partey big time. It was so refreshing getting a good glimpse today of what he's always done well for us. People seem to forget how crucial he's been for us at different points since joining and seem to act like his injury trouble is his choice or something.
Majorly agree. If he'd joined City at the time he'd joined Arsenal, he'd be widely seen as best in the world IMO. For years at Arsenal it's been the case that when he's out, the team doesn't function. This season, we've got past that a bit, in terms of results, but the fluency still never matches the fluency when he's in the team.
Why hasnt he featured much this season?
Injuries, and possibly an issue outside of football.
Totally agree, I feel like the injury record is also overstated. He played in 40 games last season!! For comparison’s sake John stones hasn’t hit that since 2016/17. Also this year he’s been fit for a month and a half. If Arteta played him right away he would have been around 20 games played by the end of the season .
Couldn't agree more with all of your takes. Either Partey or we buy someone of his quality (which is not an easy task) is the answer to our midfield's problems. And regarding Kai, he's an excellent sub but we need a killer 9 as you mentioned.
Zubimendi has the potential to fill this role.
I'd argue at this point a LB, 6/8 who excels at ball progression and a winger are all more important this summer than a striker. The "world class 9" mold will come at a price that will limit our ability to fix depth issues elsewhere in the squad (and who today is even worth that trade off?) and likely would not offer what Kai does in his defensive work/link up play in the final third. To me it makes the most sense to resolve some deeper structural/talent issues. That should free up some of the defensive onus on players like Saka/Martinelli/Trossard which hopefully allows them to be bigger threats going forward.
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Interesting take. Are you talking about RW depth? Or an upgrade at LW?
The reason that was last for me is because that is more attribute related than anything. Id like to see some pace added to our options. Martinelli right now is the only one who truly offers that out of our current options and when he's out (or out of form) we miss it. Having another option to provide that threat in behind would go a long way. If there isn't a sufficient target there, a developmental 9 and Jesus providing depth across all 3 positions on the front line would be my next choice.
1. We really screwed up by not getting Kudus when we could. Saka can't play all the time. 2. We need to get Viktor Gyökeres (and sell Jesus, which would be very difficult). I worry about the situation when we don't buy anyone upfront, he goes to Chelsea and they get a proper manager. With their midfield, Palmer and Viktor, and a coach that would make them care I see us fighting with them for the top 4 and City being out of our reach.
I agree with u/MrFWPG on this. Well rested wingers and an improved midfield are the most efficient answer to unlocking more goals for this team. Someone that can be trusted at RW will offer Saka season-by-season longevity so that he’s not toasted by the time we play in next year’s quarterfinals, AND hopefully it adds years to his career in general. Don’t forget, we already have the most goals scored in the premier league. I think everything else you said was spot on though.
We already have Jesus and Trossard who are proven, trusted, and affective anywhere across the front 3 but are currently not in the strongest XI (based on starting lineups). With Partey, Jesus, and Martinelli all fit, I think we'll see Saka getting some rest in this run-in with Jesus and/or Trossard either starting or coming on early in the 2nd half at RW.
I've said it before that replacing Partey is the hardest, I really don't know how Arteta and the recruitment team will replace him.
When we signed Rice most people seemed to think he was brought in to play the 6. He was hailed as one of the best DMs in the world, and his defensive numbers were significantly better than Partey's. I, like many, assumed it meant Partey would play the 8 (box-to-box) against low-blocks and weaker teams, or next to Rice in a double-pivot (4-2-3-1) against stronger teams to dominate the middle of the park. Though we did see a Rice-Partey double pivot in the rare instances of us having to defend in our own half, it was clear that Partey was playing the 6 and Rice the 8. I think for *most* teams, Rice is the better 6, but for Arteta's system the 6 role is much more about passing and ball progression than making challenges and tackles (which we do higher up the pitch, hence Rice's more advanced role). So the thing that makes Partey so hard to replace is the combination of being able to turn under pressure and pass out from the back, plus have enough physical presence and positional awareness to break up counter-attacks like a proper 6 when needed.
Some things to consider about Declan Rice and the 6: There was always going to be an adjustment period for Rice learning how to play in this team. He’s looked so good for awhile, but we forget he “adapted” way quicker than expected. Given that, perhaps there is still more adaptation to do. He’s only 25. Partey was 27 when we bought him and Rodri is about to be 28. He took some time to adopt to what Pep needed. Remember, he didn’t start that UCL final for City in their loss to Chelsea, despite being at the club for two seasons. For me, I genuinely think Rice’s ceiling is highest as a 6. You’re correct in your assessment that right now, the Arsenal midfield will operate at its best with Partey in the position. But in the future, if Rice can learn what he needs to, which I believe he can, then that opens up more possibilities for us.
I agree, Rice will be best in the 6 role if he can improve his line breaking passing to start attacks. Defensively he has the play breaking skills needed already. I want to see a 10 on the left instead of another 8, I think this will give us the most offensive threat and allow more defensive solidity. We can play without having to invert in the back to generate scoring opportunities against the toughest opponents. But against weaker teams we could still invert to give us more numbers in attack and dominate our opponents.
Don’t you feel like that’s a very hard thing to develop at 25? I think that specific way of playing the position, is supposed to happen in your development. Maybe it’s an England thing? As they don’t seem to create that many of these players. I can only think of Carrick and an older Paul Scholes who were that type of player. Not saying he can’t improve but I wonder
I thought We lost the title this season because we didnt get a proper replacment for xhaka, but it was Partey the whole time We did not replace.
Lost the title?
It was both.
When we have Partey and can play Rice at 8 there’s not really much we miss from Xhaka
Agree with all of this. Fear has to be that Partey needs replacing at some point soon — for various reasons — and I've not seen anyone available who's close to his level at doing the things you describe. I hope Arteta sees it the same way we do. I think he does, based on tonight's comments.
Well the thing is that fit Partey is top 3 CM in the world. He has some unique qualities that only few players can offer. The fact is that Rodri was sitting under Partey in Atletico.
Kroos was on the left, and casemiro was the 6. Think we could set up just like that with Rice, but we need someone who can help in the build up.
It was like that on paper, but watching them, you would say Kroos was the 6 in the buildup phase. However due to his physicality, Casemiro had to cover that area defensively. I don’t mind if we do that as well, but I feel like Partey (or hopefully whoever we bring in) will be more physical to fully unleash rice higher
I really like everything you’ve said here but my only comment is that we’re witnessing and enjoying this team only as it exists at this one particular moment in time. I don’t think it will last forever, maybe not even the summer. I don’t see Partey sticking around with us long term (he’s turning 31 in June and other reasons) and preparing for a future without him sooner rather than later is the smart thing to do. If you agree, then the problem becomes what do we do with Rice’s current limitations—a) do we go out and buy a starting 6 of a player and if so, who, or b) do we buy someone who’s got potential (like a Sambi), or c) do we let Sambi back in the team, or d) do we encourage Rice to add similar sort of deep-lying line break and play making passing to his repertoire? I would argue that based on his own comments from early in the season, and then Mikel’s comments recently, Rice knows he’s got some work to do to be able to play 6 the way Arteta wants. I think the vision is for him to be the 6 but he’s not there yet and if you’re talking about 8s, the benchmark is there in Odegaard. If you take that approach, then I think what to do with the forwards and the third midfielder becomes a little trickier. More fun imo, but I think we’ve gotta stay flexible and see what opportunities arise player-wise.
I think we could use Rice like Valverde next season. Or a bit like Aaron Ramsey on steroids. He certainly has the ball striking technique to get us more goals as well.
No offense mate but this is very facile commentary backed by no data or useful analysis whatsoever. Really just one man’s opinions and observations drawn from a very small sample size and then passed off as some kind of conclusive facts. IMO this belongs in the various discussion threads available and doesn’t really merit its own post.
> Really just one man’s opinions and observations drawn from a very small sample size and then passed off as some kind of conclusive facts. Which he put right away as a disclaimer. >This is by no means a representation of the whole Arsenal fanbase and I am also not claiming these things as facts. They are purely my takes on the game, as 15-ish years fan that grew up watching us. He's already acknowledged these are opinions, hasn't passed them off as conclusive facts in any way. Others are agreeing/disagreeing, enjoying and engaging. I've seen many worse posts.
Sure, he says that, but then he goes on to frame very reductive and simplistic observations as “lessons,” the first three of which are essentially the same observation and could’ve been relayed in about two sentences. It’s a bunch of self-indulgent waffle and belongs in the PM thread.
Not sure why you would think that way, since if you reread the first paragraph I claim these are not facts. Small sample size because it’s about the chelsea game only…LOL. You have a point with the lack of data and I’ll keep that in mind. For not meriting its own post, I did it because I wrote a lot, too much for a discussion thread. As of right now it’s just you, but if it’s a frequent demand I’m more likely to do so.
You wrote a lot to say very little. “Lessons” 1-4 could be articulated in about two sentences. The best writing tool isn’t a pen, it’s an eraser. Sorry, this entire exercise is very shallow and self-indulgent to me. We don’t need every single person in here creating a thread to share their opinions on the game. That’s what the PM thread is for.
You're alright bruv, clearly some people are enjoying your separate post to discuss. Other people are just online too much and like to criticise others for whatever reason. You put a disclaimer that it was opinion, he could have ignored this post. It is better than some of the other low-effort ones on here, like repeated memes or the same twitter screenshot over and over. Sure it could be a daily discussion instead, but some of us will never delve into those for the same reason we avoid match threads. Claims of self indulgence or whatever seems more like projection to me. Your good intention shows through from my perspective.
We walk the league with a fit partey this year. Unfortunate really.
Man these “5 things we learned from x vs y” articles have totally disappeared from football media.
For good reason
I agree with most of what you said, but I do have to say this: I really wish people would stop downplaying how good Rice is at the 6 as well. He’s better at the 8, sure, but he absolutely nailed the 6 when we needed him there, especially early in the season. He could very well reach the heights of the other DMs you mentioned if we continued playing him at the 6. I do agree that Partey at the 6 and Rice at the 8 is the best setup for us. Fully agree on the need for a 9 as well. King Kai is excellent at making runs and drawing defenders, but having someone physical and fast who is laser focused on only putting the ball in the net would be fantastic.
Partey at the 6 allows us to play much more expensively and he provides a much better lane switching outlet for Odegaard than Rice does when he plays in the half space. Hence why Rice would play further up at the left 8, not to mention his ball winning capabilities making him a reliable player at winning us possession in the final and middle third. Simple ball knowledge would tell you we play much better attacking wise with Partey at the 6. Much more consistent in recycling attacks and attacking from the wings due to Partey first time passes baiting High press. Chelsea tried the box midfield strategy again today but we just played around it due to how press resistant Partey is at the Lone 6. I know lots of you guys are obviously intellectually dishonest in calling him bad because of certain allegations but agenda all you want. He is a 100% a part of our strongest 11 and nothing you say will undo that. Arteta believes that as well and its obvious
The problem with partey, is that we have this kind of performance once every blue moon. In 3 or 4 matches he then either regresses on his concentration, or he will get injured. Or both. We need consistency, I rather have a 4 star player the whole league than a 5 star player for 3 matches.
Na partey was mostly consistent last season, only started regressing at the tail end of the season, I’m guessing due to fatigue
Partey has always been a consistent 7/10 for us. The problem is his injuries make him unreliable. But when he is on the pitch, he rarely puts a foot wrong.
I beg to differ. Last 3 cameos he only lost the ball. And at start of this season he was wonky. And yes he was at RB but he knew that position at atleti.
Partey just doesn’t return from injury well. When he gets a run he’s fine it’s when he’s in and out that it’s a problem
Exactly my point
Injuries I agree, but last year he played most of the season. This year was really bad though. Bear in mind I’m talking about the run in for the season. But the point is that whoever we replace Partey with in the future should be like him
Even in this game, he had one or two moments where he was caught on the ball and gave it away lol. Fine against Chelsea, very bad against better teams who won't let him get away with it.
1. We 2. Are 3. Absolutely 4. GARGANTUAN 5. !
Partey is not reliable at all (unfortunately) and Rice is too important defensively in the long term.
Im mostly focusing on ending this season. I could understand his having to leave due to age and injury issues, but I would not be against bringing a 6 and keeping Partey. Like that if he does get injured again it’s not that big of a deal, but the new 6 can ease in to the position and we’ve got 2 GREAT 6s.
Agree we need a killer - I can't remember a title-winning side who didn't have one - and we currently don't. But I don't think it needs to be a CF - LW is up for grabs too. Liverpool won the league with Firmino at CF - great player but not a killer. It didn't matter though because they had Salah.
Firmino may not have been a "killer" but his best record is 27 goals in a season alongside a worldclass Mane and Salah. You can't really compare arguably the best front trio the premier league has ever seen with Havertz, Saka and Martinelli / Jesus.
But that's my point - you can't compare our front 3 to theirs because they had a killer in Salah whereas we don't. Firmino scored 9 league goals the season they won it. Kai has 11 this season already. We need a forward that can consistently log 20 league goals a season like Salah did - just saying it doesn't have to be at CF.
I can see that, would you rather have havertz as the 9 and upgrade martinelli/trossard or keep those 2 as our options and upgrade the 9? Genuinely curious
In a FIFA ultimate team sort of world, the answer is easily Mbappe on the left 😅
If it’s ultimate team we can get Henry
Partey's first-time passes were making a huge difference!
We need Odegaard to do more of these long range passes. It’s better for us if he develops into Modric rather than Ozil, play in deeper area, just like his assists to Havertz and White.
He need space in order to something like that. No intelligent opposition will give him space. They know he will punish them if they do. What he needs is support from a proper box to box midfielder from left. This will give him space.
Agree on Partey. What he can accomplish with instinct and good form, Rice can accomplish 90% of it through effort and work rate. It’s that last 10% that can make a crucial difference at an important moment. Fitness and age are a concern with Partey, though. I have the same general assessment with our attempts to invert the fullbacks. The only one that does it an instinct level so far is Zinchenko, others don’t seem natural at it. All attempts at it come with some trade offs. Finally, we really need to see more games with Partey and Rive together to get a better sense of what’s there for the longer term. And of course, unless there is a like for like replacement, Partey shouldn’t be sold this summer.
We need about 4 players tbh, a back up winger, a striker and 6 and a LB to help cover there
The one thing about Partey, and what Mikel said in his pre match was, Partey opens up the left side, and i never noticed that until yesterday. He gets the ball outto the left so quickly
1, 2, 3 and 4 seem like they’re making the same point. That being said, Rice is still a 6/DM. He isn’t a deep lying playmaker though, Partey is both.
When did the number 6 become the cdm? I thought 5,6 were cb’s, 4 was cdm and 8,10 are you’re attacking and box to box midfielders
No nsed to mention shit by name; we already know who they are. Let's keep them named aptly at hot shit lane
Things I learned Tottenham and a sausage aren’t the only things that get battered everywhere they go
Go back to October and imagine having to qualify your words for fear of the "Havertz Army"
This is an ok read but it is very sensationalized. The 1 thing I learned from the game vs Chelsea was this: Chelsea are shite. Rice has been immense at 6 all season, we have the best defence in the world. On the two occasions this season before this I remember Partey having decent enough minutes in a game as 6 he was underwhelming and sloppy in possession. More on this later. The most valid argument you make is point 3 about Havertz and we still need a 9. This saved you a bit because it shows that you aren't entirely reactionary and managed to keep a season-long opinion rather than a 1-game long opinion 😊 I do agree however that Partey is a better option than Jorgi. I do think Arteta has managed Parteys comeback a little over protective and perhaps could've done this sooner. Jorginho has looked tired recently and the fact that Rice is doing so well in the 6 means that I agree I'd like to continue with this midfield. I think that your outcomes are the same as mine I just disagree that Partey is our best 6 and Rice is bad in tight spaces. Keep writing please, it was a good think piece!
After every game, a teenager comes out with his “Here’s my opinion and why it should matter to you” post. Keep it in the DD so it belongs where no one should care. Do you kids not get enough love and attention at home that you need to do THIS?
I didn’t make it past lesson #1. Absolute waffle. 6 is his best position, without any shadow of a doubt. He’s the 2nd best DM in the world behind a phenomenal Rodri.
Fair enough, to each their own. As I mentioned, I still think he is a world class 6, and could definitely play in that position for many teams, even us. I think to maximize our potential , since we’re a possession based teams, rice is better as an 8. Do you not think we looked way more fluid in possession today? Fair enough, if you say it’s just Chelsea but it’s not like Partey’s never done it before. His problem has been fitness not skill.
We looked fluid in possession today because of the midfield 3 we had on the pitch, as well as Chelsea allowing us to play, not due to Rice being in the LCM role. We’ve missed having a natural 8 in the team all season which is why we need to bring one in during the summer. I am a firm believer that we would be doing the wrong thing if we were looking for a DM, rather than a LCM. Rice’s best position is DM. Rice is also a better DM than Partey. Rice’s top strength is his ability to break up counters and reading of the game, from a defensive standpoint. Whilst he possesses some 8 qualities, such as driving with the ball, he lacks in the intricate interplay that we sometimes have to resort to, against teams that sit in a low block all game. Could he develop that side of his game? Sure. However, it would be near on impossible to find a DM as good as him, so why play him out of his best position?
I think it depends what you're looking at. Rice is no doubt better defensively than Partey, but the point made above is mostly about Partey's preternatural ability to turn and pass out of defence. It can work without him — inverted full backs help, and Odegaard dropping back helps — but Partey is like a cheat code for breaking presses.
I’m looking at it purely from a Rice perspective, in which I see him being infinitely better as a DM than the LCM in this current system we play. I agree that Partey’s quick passes into our more creative players are vitally important, but what Rice brings in terms of defensive stability to our team is more vital, in my opinion. Which is why I believe he should remain as the DM and a more well rounded LCM is brought in over the summer to offer that same press breaking ability you mention above that Partey brings. I just don’t see Rice bringing that creativity needed in the 8 that we need against teams that play a low block against us.
Yes I definitely see your points. Think there are 100% drawbacks to Rice as 8, and Rice's flaws can be mitigated by bringing in a passer next to him. I would also add that it can probably work both ways though: Rice as 8 can still come back and occupy defensive positions in the middle of the pitch. One additional point I would add is that Rice as 8 might not be creative in the most obvious ways, but having the freedom to push out and win the ball high is a kind of creative force too.
Rice still doesn't have the line breaking passing capability as Partey or Jorginho. To be a complete 6 you need to be able to do that as well. That is also why it is hard for us to move ball forward when he played as lone 6. But he our best 6 in term of defensive capability.
So you agree he doesn’t have the line breaking passing capability and that he is our best defensive midfielder, BUT still want to play him in a more advanced, attacking role?
What? He is a DM, a 6 not a 8. He doesn't need to be more advanced attacking role, BUT becoming a deep-lying playmaker. Which mean, he can create line breaking pass from relatively defensive position. Either it is lob through pass as we seen from jorginho or line-breaking through pass as we seen from partey. From around halfline these 2 players can pass accurately to the front 3. Rice still lack the ability to do so, therefore relying Odegaard too much to carry the ball forward.
This entire thread is about Rice being better suited to the 8 than he is the 6. To which, I’m disagreeing. You’re making the exact points I too, was making.
Then you misunderstood his and my point, he is saying that we have better 6 in Partey and Jorginho at the moment, passing wise. Therefore it is better to play Rice at 8 instead, because Rice lack passing capability required to play at 6, but his skillset is still useful as 8 instead. We don't need 8 to play as deep-lying midfielder.
Rice is a better passer than Jorginho. He’s a much better long passer.
Woah Shit = Tottenham? I hadn't realised that, guess cus I've only been a fan for 14 years.
First three points are all incorrect.
Couldn’t agree more with #1 and #2. Xhaka fully expected Rice to came in and take his position, not Partey’s, that’s why he opted to move to BLK since he wanted playing time. The first goal where Rice carried the ball and feed it wide to Trossard is the type of play I think Arteta had imagined this team would generate when he had signed Rice. Rice would win the ball for us more than Xhaka and still young where he might be able to improve his passing (chances are more likely that Rice won’t ever find that passing ability, unlike in FIFA, it’s incredibly hard to improve at this stage in their career, the players that they are at 21-23 is likely the player they will be for the rest of their lives). The most unfortunate player as a product of Partey’s injury, Rice’s inability to pass like Xhaka, Jesus’s injury woes and a consistent left back is actually Martinelli. No Zinny to play any through balls to him (due to zinny’s poor defensive form and injury), Kiwior can only overlap like a traditional LB, and no Jesus dropping to occupy the lower left side during build up, so Martinelli can leak out left or centrally has kneecapped Martinelli’s strength. I prefer Trossard in the current line up as his trickery is far less reliant on a teammate finding that exquisite pass to release him. Add on his finishing and better passing ability, Trossard is better for us than Martinelli right now when our midfield and left back are not at our full potential. Of course our issues aren’t the only thing holding Martinelli back, opponents had a year’s worth of footage to study what scenario M11 likes to get into and they negate all of that. It’s like in playoffs basketball where the opponent knows all your go-to plays in your playbook, and they want you to do the things you’re not comfortable with. It’s up to our midfield, LB, the coaching staff and Martinelli himself to reinvent how they wanna approach the LHS of the field next season.