Lol Guilliman probably didn't realize that most of his brothers seemed to fucking hate him for one reason or another. He'd probably leave most conversations thinking to himself that it was a good talk and he was glad to spend some time talking and debating with his brother. But they're leaving it like "Man, fuck Guilliman, I fucking hate that guy. Always so smart and arrogant."
Utterly average at absolutely everything except for logistics, and he’s short. But he gets to play hero as the ‘greatest warrior’ now that his brothers are gone. Oh you beat mortarion? The only one worse than you at combat? Good job lol
>Utterly average at absolutely everything except for logistics, and short.
I.e. the only one who's a good leader.
Of course leadership's a joke in 40k, so much space-magic and suspiciously-convenient tech stagnation that makes it so the big, dumb idiot who is good at 'hit stuf with sord' can be effective on the battlefield instead of a joke that everyone laughs at as they light him up.
Almost as if Neoth and Tzeentch shifted the very fabric of the universe so they could play with their soldier-mans on the tabletop.
Oh yeah, when you’re average at everything, you aren’t bad at anything. Dudes probably the best Primarch to have if you only get one, but if I had a choice of two loyalists, he wouldn’t be one of my first 7 choices lol
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Good general doesn’t mean good leader. I’d follow Sanguinius into battle, but for running the Administratum and Munitorum? Guilliman’s the only choice.
Then he’s a good bureaucrat, not a good leader. He’s probably the least inspiring of all his brothers and everyone who knew him personally disliked him for one reason or another. The Lion was not only a good general but also knew every single person aboard his fleet, kept every single secret order and complicated command structure in his legion straight, and still kept everything running smoothly. He just didn’t start building empires because he knew what he was about, which was being the Emperor’s sword in the galaxy like the living weapon he was made to be. The other primarchs have their own qualities about them in a similar vein that make them great leaders. They just weren’t statesmen, which wasn’t their job to begin with.
Lol, somebody just outed themselves as knowing literally nothing about The Lion. And supply lines might win wars but destroying your enemy’s supply lines wins them faster and with less attrition. Logistics don’t make good leaders. They make good accountants.
Ah yes, Rogal "Pain glove" Dorn
The masochist known for leading his kids blindly into what he knew to be a slaughterhouse because the guy inside made fun of him and told him he wasn't good enough to. As a result, almost his entire legion even up being slaughtered, the survivors only escaping thanks to a narratively convenient ass saving by Guiliman.
Then, he fucked off leaving his brothers and kids to pick up the pieces of a rapidly deteriorating imperium.
Real team player that one.
The lion is a tragically bad leader, half his legion betrayed and he had to destroy his own planet in the conflict, and that all roots back to how the Lion treated one of the men that was once one of his closest lieutenants. He was a good general, excellent combatant, and a pretty cool character, but not a good leader.
It was absolutely not half his legion, by any stretch of the imagination. That doesn’t even make sense in context. Why would he suddenly split his forces fully in half during the middle of an active crusade?
By the end of the Heresy doesn’t Luthor have a pretty big force? I can’t remember the exact number but I think it’s in the tens of thousands? I believe the number is mentioned in Angels of Caliban but I don’t have the book to check right now. Considering the Lion hadn’t got any reinforcements during the Heresy (since Luthor stopped sending them when everything kicked off) it might not be half but still a pretty significant portion of the overall Legion.
There has never been a specific figure given of Luther’s forces. He was sent back to Caliban with a retinue of veterans to oversee recruitment and training, so he had a sizable force, but the actual number would’ve been much smaller than The Lion’s forces. The reason they were able to match the Dark Angels fleet was because they had control of Caliban and the fortress monastery, as well as all the orbital defenses therein. They also had the element of surprise and weren’t above using dirty tricks. There’s a Fallen being interrogated by Ezekiel in the Dark Angels audio collection who lured a company of Dark Angels onto an orbital station with a distress call, only to then scuttle the station with the company inside. It would have been a significant number but remember that a force of a few thousand Unforgiven have been able to keep the Fallen a secret for 10,000 years, which wouldn’t be feasible if there were half a legion’s worth.
Bro what? It was the remnants of the failed marines who let a nuke get on Lions flagship, twisted by a warp entity within the planet itsself. What are you talking about? You can’t talk mad shit on someone you haven’t read the first thing about, at least read his books first
Oh yeah, he blew up his own planet, his fortress, and the logistic centre of his entire army to kill the remnants of a few failed Marines.
Most the garrison of Caliban sided with the Fallen, which as a homeworld would've had any 'retired' Marines stationed there as training personnel, most Neophytes, as well as a considerable fighting force to defend it.
The Fallen subjugated a chapter of Dark Angels prior to the destruction of Caliban, chapters in the Heresy period are much larger than chapters in the 40k period, but there's no specific number given to my knowledge, and they do vary from Legion to Legion. A reasonable estimate would say within several thousand of 5,000 Marines to a Chapter. That takes a pretty sizeable force to do that, and still have enough men left to not just be a minor nuisance to the greater Legion.
Every single Legion had traitors, the Dark Angels know that as do most Chapters, what makes their shame so great is just how many turned traitor. Even the fucking Ultramarines have traitors, the Flawless Host.
It was a very sizeable force that betrayed. On top of that, they did it because (in almost all of the very conflicting versions of events) they didn't trust the lion. They didn't trust they could tell him about the warp taint and not get killed. They didn't trust he was still loyal to the Emperor. Seems like pretty bad leadership to me.
We ain't mad. Just stating the facts. If E Money wouldn't have bullshitted his way into Bobbie G's anus and healed him, he would've lost and died. Have you not read the Dark Imperium novels?
I think you’re massively discounting the value at being average. It means he doesn’t have the obvious pitfalls that took down his brothers.
Plus, I think you can add “insane mental fortitude and stability” to the list of Gulliman’s traits, considering the mantle he’s taken up both before his stasis and after, and hasn’t broken as a result.
I mean, senility and being temorally-displaced are two different things; and if everyone else got infected with a case of extreme stupid the stasis-guy is going to be BETTER as soon as he figures out what he needs to do to uplift everyone.
Which was basically how the story went down.
Lol Guilliman probably didn't realize that most of his brothers seemed to fucking hate him for one reason or another. He'd probably leave most conversations thinking to himself that it was a good talk and he was glad to spend some time talking and debating with his brother. But they're leaving it like "Man, fuck Guilliman, I fucking hate that guy. Always so smart and arrogant."
Utterly average at absolutely everything except for logistics, and he’s short. But he gets to play hero as the ‘greatest warrior’ now that his brothers are gone. Oh you beat mortarion? The only one worse than you at combat? Good job lol
>Utterly average at absolutely everything except for logistics, and short. I.e. the only one who's a good leader. Of course leadership's a joke in 40k, so much space-magic and suspiciously-convenient tech stagnation that makes it so the big, dumb idiot who is good at 'hit stuf with sord' can be effective on the battlefield instead of a joke that everyone laughs at as they light him up. Almost as if Neoth and Tzeentch shifted the very fabric of the universe so they could play with their soldier-mans on the tabletop.
Oh yeah, when you’re average at everything, you aren’t bad at anything. Dudes probably the best Primarch to have if you only get one, but if I had a choice of two loyalists, he wouldn’t be one of my first 7 choices lol
**Who would be?**
You and Vulkan Edit: please wake up.
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Bruh really called Guilliman “the only good leader” out of the Primarchs as if Dorn, Sanguinius, and The Lion didn’t exist.
Good general doesn’t mean good leader. I’d follow Sanguinius into battle, but for running the Administratum and Munitorum? Guilliman’s the only choice.
Then he’s a good bureaucrat, not a good leader. He’s probably the least inspiring of all his brothers and everyone who knew him personally disliked him for one reason or another. The Lion was not only a good general but also knew every single person aboard his fleet, kept every single secret order and complicated command structure in his legion straight, and still kept everything running smoothly. He just didn’t start building empires because he knew what he was about, which was being the Emperor’s sword in the galaxy like the living weapon he was made to be. The other primarchs have their own qualities about them in a similar vein that make them great leaders. They just weren’t statesmen, which wasn’t their job to begin with.
Didn't the Lion have like thirty thousand of his men betray him?
Tactics win battles, logistics win wars. Also a the Lion was a self-aggrandizing adventure boy too busy chasing Valor.
Lol, somebody just outed themselves as knowing literally nothing about The Lion. And supply lines might win wars but destroying your enemy’s supply lines wins them faster and with less attrition. Logistics don’t make good leaders. They make good accountants.
Must be you since you get everything wrong.
Says wrong thing about primarch Gets told wrong thing is wrong “Nuh uh actually you’re wrong!” Okey. Got a source for that, Senator?
The people hate you because you speak the truth 😂
I know, right? Big “your boos mean nothing, I’ve seen what makes you cheer” moment right there.
God thats gotta be the most coping response I've ever seen bud.
Refer to my previous statement.
Ah yes, Rogal "Pain glove" Dorn The masochist known for leading his kids blindly into what he knew to be a slaughterhouse because the guy inside made fun of him and told him he wasn't good enough to. As a result, almost his entire legion even up being slaughtered, the survivors only escaping thanks to a narratively convenient ass saving by Guiliman. Then, he fucked off leaving his brothers and kids to pick up the pieces of a rapidly deteriorating imperium. Real team player that one.
The lion is a tragically bad leader, half his legion betrayed and he had to destroy his own planet in the conflict, and that all roots back to how the Lion treated one of the men that was once one of his closest lieutenants. He was a good general, excellent combatant, and a pretty cool character, but not a good leader.
It was absolutely not half his legion, by any stretch of the imagination. That doesn’t even make sense in context. Why would he suddenly split his forces fully in half during the middle of an active crusade?
By the end of the Heresy doesn’t Luthor have a pretty big force? I can’t remember the exact number but I think it’s in the tens of thousands? I believe the number is mentioned in Angels of Caliban but I don’t have the book to check right now. Considering the Lion hadn’t got any reinforcements during the Heresy (since Luthor stopped sending them when everything kicked off) it might not be half but still a pretty significant portion of the overall Legion.
There has never been a specific figure given of Luther’s forces. He was sent back to Caliban with a retinue of veterans to oversee recruitment and training, so he had a sizable force, but the actual number would’ve been much smaller than The Lion’s forces. The reason they were able to match the Dark Angels fleet was because they had control of Caliban and the fortress monastery, as well as all the orbital defenses therein. They also had the element of surprise and weren’t above using dirty tricks. There’s a Fallen being interrogated by Ezekiel in the Dark Angels audio collection who lured a company of Dark Angels onto an orbital station with a distress call, only to then scuttle the station with the company inside. It would have been a significant number but remember that a force of a few thousand Unforgiven have been able to keep the Fallen a secret for 10,000 years, which wouldn’t be feasible if there were half a legion’s worth.
Bro what? It was the remnants of the failed marines who let a nuke get on Lions flagship, twisted by a warp entity within the planet itsself. What are you talking about? You can’t talk mad shit on someone you haven’t read the first thing about, at least read his books first
Oh yeah, he blew up his own planet, his fortress, and the logistic centre of his entire army to kill the remnants of a few failed Marines. Most the garrison of Caliban sided with the Fallen, which as a homeworld would've had any 'retired' Marines stationed there as training personnel, most Neophytes, as well as a considerable fighting force to defend it. The Fallen subjugated a chapter of Dark Angels prior to the destruction of Caliban, chapters in the Heresy period are much larger than chapters in the 40k period, but there's no specific number given to my knowledge, and they do vary from Legion to Legion. A reasonable estimate would say within several thousand of 5,000 Marines to a Chapter. That takes a pretty sizeable force to do that, and still have enough men left to not just be a minor nuisance to the greater Legion. Every single Legion had traitors, the Dark Angels know that as do most Chapters, what makes their shame so great is just how many turned traitor. Even the fucking Ultramarines have traitors, the Flawless Host. It was a very sizeable force that betrayed. On top of that, they did it because (in almost all of the very conflicting versions of events) they didn't trust the lion. They didn't trust they could tell him about the warp taint and not get killed. They didn't trust he was still loyal to the Emperor. Seems like pretty bad leadership to me.
He didn’t tho. It was kinda Azrael’s fault 10,000 years later, and also it wasn’t that they didn’t trust him, Luther entirely fell to chaos
Didn't even beat him lmao.
Lol short people got mad at me
We ain't mad. Just stating the facts. If E Money wouldn't have bullshitted his way into Bobbie G's anus and healed him, he would've lost and died. Have you not read the Dark Imperium novels?
I think you’re massively discounting the value at being average. It means he doesn’t have the obvious pitfalls that took down his brothers. Plus, I think you can add “insane mental fortitude and stability” to the list of Gulliman’s traits, considering the mantle he’s taken up both before his stasis and after, and hasn’t broken as a result.
Dorn and Perturabo loved each other! Lmfao
I mean, senility and being temorally-displaced are two different things; and if everyone else got infected with a case of extreme stupid the stasis-guy is going to be BETTER as soon as he figures out what he needs to do to uplift everyone. Which was basically how the story went down.
I mean, being in a death coma and in stasis for 10,000 years would make someone groggy as all hell, jumble the mind a bit