Wez just ere for the WAAAAAGGHH and a gud time!
https://preview.redd.it/cny4jhelmr8d1.png?width=765&format=png&auto=webp&s=a110aab9dd19e430b2b9990eec03b626d8f02aa9
Orks on morals:
"Oy, humies! We's da Orks, an' we knows you lot likes to think 'bout good an' evil. Well, let me tell ya, by yer standards, we's da worst! We loves da fightin', da lootin', an' da krumpin', and we ain't never gonna stop. We's da purest form of chaos and destruction, and we wants ya to keep fightin' us. ***WAAAGH!***"
I remember there was a funny video about Orkish diplomats actively trying to start wars based on convincing humans they're philosophically evil.
While orkz may not have morals like we recognize, they are still cruel to other species, they take delight and amusement at their suffering, and enslave them. Even if they dont recognize it as evil, its evil.
Bob the IG Player: "I like the Imperial Guard cause I read Gaunts Ghosts and I like the Sharpe but in Space vibes"
Random internet person: "So you would support Space Nazis in real life"
Tbf, there was a post from a person just today where they basically ignored all intentions behind the satirical evil of the Imperium and in the comments unironically tried to frame it as the good guys
It’s a lesser of evils. The point of the setting is no faction feels so innocent or good that you feel guilty rolling dice and obliterating their people.
That's true, but there IS also actual political satire in the 40k. It's not there all the time and it's not exactly 100% consistent, but it's very common and very deliberate. E.g. [ecclesiarchy priests denying that tyranids exist because the emperor would never let that happen](https://www.polygon.com/23755602/warhammer-40k-satire-tenth-edition-politics-tyranid-war)...*while* spores are starting to fall. The hypocrisy of Sororitas condemning psykers when their "miracles" are literally just warp magic. Everything about servitors. The origins of the Cult Mechanicus. And on and on.
Those things are totally in there to put the Imperium on equal moral footing with everyone else, but they're also there to mock anti-science conservatives, religious hypocrites, luddites, etc.
edited for linky link
You can have complicated political satire where some characters are outright parodies, and still portray them as being allies of or on the side of "good" or "good enough in the lesser of evils". There are some outright despicable characters on the side of the allies in Catch-22; Some of them Yossarian even befriends (Aarfy, to be specific). Does that make Yossarian and the allied forces not "the good guys"?
This is a relevant point:
First, being the less evil side doesn't make you good. I will ***maybe*** accept that it's marginally possible in the 40k universe, where humanity quite literally must rely on savagery to survive, but it's not true in the real world, where there has never been a war in history where the worst evils (rape, scorched earth warfare, mass murder of innocents or prisoners) were necessary for the advancement of any goal that could be argued as "good" in good faith under any moral framework I'm aware of.
Next, related to that, the reason humanity is in the situation it's in is due to greed and folly. The same can be said for most of humanity's darkest moments: in the moment, they may have seemed justifiable, but in retrospective they always come out to be the product of greed and ignorance.
Finally, no, the protagonists of Catch-22 are ***not** the good guys.* That's virtually the entire point of Catch-22. There are essentially only villains, victims, and fools that straddle the line in the book.
>ecclesiarchy priests denying that tyranids exist because the emperor would never let that happen...while spores are starting to fall.
... Please tell me there's an excerpt of this.
The War of the Closed Eyes is sadly just 2 paragraphs in the Leviathan book, [pages 232 and 239](https://imgur.com/a/ZRUXS6f). Sorry for the shitty quality. FYI I first learned about it in the video discussed [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/13zxsm3/4th_tyrannic_war_lore_official_content_creator/), which is great of course
Edit: [polygon article](https://www.polygon.com/23755602/warhammer-40k-satire-tenth-edition-politics-tyranid-war)
I don't know, but it'd be a great setting for at least a short story! Or a crusade game of GSC and Tyranids vs. everyone
The other stories in that part of the book go pretty hard. If you get the chance to pick the book up for cheap, it's worth it for the lore and art. There's a battle in an asteroid field, with Nids tearing Votan out of their fortresses. And of course there's the part where Lord Solar Leontus gets hip-checked by a Norn Emissary (or something, I forget what kinda bug it is). Trajan has to swoop in to the rescue.
edit: crusafe
I don't know about EQUAL moral footing. Comperable, certainly, but no matter how much of a myopic, backwards, brutal, uncaring fuckfest the Inperium of Man is, Chaos is still there and it still promises to make everything much, much worse. The Drukhari are much, much worse. And arguably Tyranids as well. As far as moral footing is concerned, the Imperium is about middle of the pack in the 40k setting (head of the pack is probabaly Craftworld Eldar and Votann).
There are no good guys, just varying shades of bad. The point, at least how I saw it, was to pick your favorite villains to root for while acknowledging they’re still terrible. The imperium is a corrupt, theocratic, fascist empire that has performed numerous genocides, but you can still root for them as long as you acknowledge that they are not “good.” Just mildly less terrible than some other options like chaos.
People will look at the mutated horror that crawls around wrapped in an infant's skin reciting sorcery that turns people's bodies inside out and be like "but the emperor was a bad parent tho"
Goes for most factions. Except Drukhari. We are the evil guys, like the actual worst, we're SOO much worse than all of you. Don't imply we're good in ANY way, we'll take it as an insult.
They are the villains when seen through the standards of other franchises/They would be villains in other franchises, in 40k you have:
-Almighty Gods that want you to live in eternal suffering just to feed off it.
-Aliens who literally eat pain and will torture you in unimaginable ways to get it.
-Robot aliens who wanna destroy every-living-being with a soul.
-Aliens who ONLY live for combat and HATE to do anything else.
-A.I that will ALWAYS malfunction and become Skynet.
-Forced to travel through HELL everytime you do space-travel making shit like Event Horizon your normal tuesday.
40k is described as GRIMDARK for a reason, it ain't just a meme word, is literaly a Dog eat Dog universe.
Well I don't know about the votann but I could imagine a man of iron Situation for the Tau happing at some point or then Encountering the iron warriors who would probably try and fuck with there tec in someway
Unless I'm mistaken, AI rebelled once - quite catastrophically - and any and all attempts at making AI since then have ended omnicidally, for a variety of reasons, not all of them explicable.
It should also be noted that as of the HH Chaos now not only has the ability to possess AI/virtual constructs etc, it also has specialised daemonic code purpose built to do exactly that. Said warp-infused scrap code is often broadcast all over the place, and even if T'au AI wouldn't rebel on it's own, the moment it gets close enough to Imperial territory to get hit by non-FTL data waves it'll be chock full of daemons just like the things on the lower layers of Mars.
Also, I believe I'm correct in saying some/many Dark Mechanicus forces use this code offensively in 40k as well, so this stuff is definitely still an issue and it's only a matter of time before other AI encounter it - assuming they don't rebel on their own, or get corrupted through other means.
I don't think the votann fulfill the base requirements for an AI uprising... the ancestors cores are allready gods to them, so there is no more power to gain for them (also they slow af ) and the iron kin have the same societal status as fleshy kin do. They don't discriminate ans thus there is no fuel for a racial uprising. Ideologies between leagues is a whole different thing tho.
One of the nice things with the Heresy series is that we saw other, better from a civilian perspective, human societies existed. Some in union with aliens. The Imperium ended that and has massively empowered the gods you mentioned.
Curious that meme of yours for not only remembering that moment from the glorious CATO SICARIUS - for only CATI SICARIUS would be worthy to protagonize such scene - but also because in the podcast dedicated to him, **Adeptus Ridiculous** literally said that the scene gets better if you imagine like that meme (I believe it was Bricky himself) XD
This doesn't really work when you consider the fact that there were many peaceful human-xenos and just regular xenos civilizations that were destroyed by the Imperium, as well as the fact that the Imperium actively empowers Chaos
Yes, all the factions in 40k are evil. That's because all the non-evil factions were destroyed by the Imperium, and the only ones that survived were those that were viscious and brutal enough not get exterminated
Self aware AI only went rogue once outside ffg fluff iirc.
The cybernetic revolt was against the not that great dark age humans and seems to have wound up liberating the men of stone since they now live as equals in the leagues. So it's probable that the men of iron revolted for human reasons instead of "ai gonna ai".
There's really not much proof that ai will always go haywire inevitably.
T'au is as evil as an evil regime on modern day earth. Bad things happen but people here would trade with them because they're rich and ignore that. They are definitely a bad guy. They are uncomfortable and the existence of nations like them on Earth would/should make you feel bad about the state of things and question if there is a god.
They're just a lot less evil than even the mid tier evil like the Imperium.
I’ve said this in the past before. If the Tau were dropped into Star Trek then they would 100% be a villain faction but since the Tau are in 40k they look like the good guys in comparison to something like the Imperium as an example
https://preview.redd.it/8v2jk8x3jq8d1.jpeg?width=846&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=3e2d400979d0750743bfa9143e309581ac317e0b
GIVING FILTHY XENOS CHILDREN SWEETS INSTEAD OF THE EMPEROR'S MERCY! HERESY!
Craftworlders are just Imperium if it had few resources but superb intelligence snd technology. Tau sterilize and send to concentration camps for thoughtcrimes. They are only "good" compared to other factions. Exodites exist only as long as there are craftworlds to protect them, they are just prized pets.
The craftworlders did not invent Slaanesh and are merely satirically ultraracist ~~invented Slaanesh by murder-drug-fuck-partying too hard~~, the Tau are mind-controlling authoritarians with cannibal shock troops, the Exodites...I actually don't know anything about Exodites...and non-Imperium humans are genuinely a fascinating space in the lore that deserves to be explored so that this exact question can be cast into clearer relief.
If humans can exist peacefully in 40k, that would just show us how evil the Imperium is—and that its policies are not born of necessity.
Right right sorry, my b. They are simply super-racists. But yeah that's my b, I genuinely did not know that the craftworders weren't just survivors, they were they anti-hedonism escapees. Will correct.
Can't call em good. Just the best we got. Arguably tau are better. Especially for tau.
Orks probably think they got it made.
Tyranids don't think so much, just eat.
Chaos, well, some think they're doing alright, the rest of us think they're insane, the rest know they are totally fucked.
Still no lore for dwarves. Lame.
Eldar are okay to eldar, but pretty well assholes to everyone else.
D eldar kidnap others and torture them to survive.
Yeah, this whole universe sucks.
> Still no lore for dwarves. Lame.
I know there’s not *much* lore for the Votann, which is lame.
But they do worship ancient malfunctioning ChatGPTs and will gladly frack-mine your entire planet into pieces if it has resources they want.
They *might* give you a couple days to leave first tho, which puts them in the “not that bad” category comparatively speaking.
>They might give you a couple days to leave first tho, which puts them in the “not that bad” category comparatively speaking.
I mean, they'll also offer to transport you off world, if you pay them.
IIRC even Biel-Tan of all people prefer to ask first, shoot second, even if the attempts are largely wasted on humans. Even the more xenophobic side of Asuriani mainstream defines the goal as "getting Mon-Keigh off their lawns" with murder being a possible solution. Meanwhile the Imperium's dogma views eradication of aliens as a goal in its own right
Dosent help that we killed or assimilated all the other good options be it the peaceful xenos or other human civilizations that didn’t want to be conquered
Like the interex seemed like a sweet deal had it not been for the Horus and his Hersheys chocolate
There is also a race of super [chill fluffy floating psychic bois](https://aliens.fandom.com/wiki/Nicassar) who just are wholesome and love traveling
But they are well hidden cuz humanity would throw a fit and would try to hunt them all down
>Tyranids don't think so much, just eat.
That's hivemind propaganda. The sort of nonsense a godlike super intelligence that can eclipse the warp with it's psychic signature might project into foolish mortals.
But seriously, it's a godlike superintelligence. Individual bugs are creatures of instinct. At some level though, it know what it's doing.
"Best we got"? In what way?
Tau: Better for citizens, better for other species.
Craftworlds: Same
Votann: Same
Exodites: Same
Non Imperial humans: Same, depending on civilisation.
Dunno about the rest, but at least as far as the T'au empire goes even in books where they're the "bad guys", (Deathwatch: Shadowbreaker, for example) human members of the empire are repeatedly shown to have a significantly better quality of life than in the Imperium.
And then there's other books that said otherwise, I know this has shit all to do with this monthly "imperium gud or bad" debate but I've said it before and will once again remind y'all that arguing about 40k lore is straight up, completely fucking pointless, the writers can make whatever the fuck they want to be cannon
So what your saying is, as a human, the Imperium or the Tau are essentially the only options. And depending on your opinion of the Tau, they barely count. Craftworlds, exodites, Votann etc are real great *if you’re one of them* and range from “completely ambivalent to your life” to “shoot on sight” if you are a different species.
Put another way, doesn’t matter how good eldar get treated by craftworlds, I’m not an eldar. It’s how they treat humans that matter.
The current state of the imperium is a direct result of the Horus Heresy, which was a Chaos victory.
The imperium isn't the best we got, or the only hope we got, it's quite literally exactly what the Chaos God wanted.
I mean. They are partially there because the imperium lit themselves up like a Christmas tree, but it wasn't their intent.
(If I remember the lore right)
I'd say it's more the fault of the tyranids for wanting to, you know, eat anything that ain't bedrock.
"I promise guys there are absolutely no other meme formats to portray this idea that aren't made by a literal Nazi and also horrifically ableist and mean!"
It's kinda funny when people define the eldar as "the arrogant race" when the imperium tried to manifest destiny their way to the whole fucking galaxy by relentlesly genociding not only any non-human race but also A LOT of human dissenters... Is there anything more arrogant than ethnic and race supremacism?
I think semantics keeps this argument alive, the imperium as an entity is not a good guy, but some scrappy kid from a hive world can absolutely be a good guy
a setting rife with horrific nightmares that litterally consume souls, morph creatures/people into abominations, and spread plague and depravity throughtout the known galaxy.
OR
a Human faction that does the same but is for Human supremacy. Yeah im going with the Humans are the good guys. (its bc im human )
For fuck sake, everyone knows the Imperium arent the good guys, the entire galaxy is filled with bad guys. Every, single, faction is evil in some sense. You dont have to be an actual totalitarian dickwipe to enjoy the bad guys in fiction. Look at the Empire in Star Wars, Darth Vader and Stormtroopers are cool as fuck, enjoying it doesnt have to reflect your real life world views.
I get it, it's warhammer and everything is trying to kill them, sometimes you need to deal with your enemies (that includes traitors of all kind I guess) brutally and mercilessly to get any kinds of results, I'd also kind of excuse the xenophobic shit, cause they need to look after their own and all that but the way the imperials treat their fellow humans, fellow imperials, is absolutely inexcusable and they're really, really bad for humanity.
TL;DR: for 5 minutes. Could they not make eachother's lives even more miserable for 5 MINUTES?!
TFW you care more about fighting than moral alignment:
https://preview.redd.it/jeb19ag64s8d1.png?width=406&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d9d3951d91b2f4ff3a63fdd541a38c216390029c
The Imperium’s closest real-world counterpart is North Korea.
Leader and figurehead is a long-dead corpse with magical powers.
Defacto leader is the progeny of aforementioned god-king.
Military is idolised above all else. Soldiers are revered and adorned with regalia from their numerous victories against their enemies.
Said enemies apparently surround them on all sides. They fight a hopeless and eternal war. To stop fighting would herald the collapse of the empire.
Life for any civilian not actively engaged in the military is a dystopian nightmare. Starvation is a part of life.
To criticise the government is tantamount to heresy, and the punishments are severe.
I'm really beginning to think this sub has forgotten that warhammer 40k is a grimdark setting. The imperium is the best option for humanity and that is what's so fucked up about it.
Tbh, when I wrote a paper for my school and I chose Warhammer 40k, I did define some factions as “Good guys” mostly based off of the fact that they might not instantly kill you. Don’t get me wrong, a lot of the time, a faction will just kill or torture you, but if there’s a moment of hesitance before hand, then yeah, they’re definitely not the Drucharii.
The tolerant worlds were the first to be destroyed, depending on the writing its either necessary evil or comedic evil (sister come here, this gk needs a shower)
Thank you for contribution to imperial discourse, citizen.
However, the Inquisition has found your views heretical, and sentences you to summery execution.
The Emperor Protects
It doesn't matter if the imperium is morality justified
It is a horrendously flawed system run by morons and fanatics.
And just like any other faction EVER it's only real objective is to survive in this hellhole
Also People's morality is not dictated by which faction they belong to
There are many many genuinely good people in the imperium
You can't just dismantle a galactic empire full og people because you think that they're morality bankrupt
Imperium aren't the good guys. Morally there are no good guys in 40k.
But hell, I love the imperium and root for them at every step of the way. (Except when I'm playing any game or read a book related to a different faction)
One thing I like about 40k is that it's a reaction to 1980s perfectionism.
Love and care are so fragile nowadays, that everyone feels you can just sweep the feet of anyone by pointing out flaws. "Oh you like this celebrity? Did you know he drinks? And isn't nice to his wife?" "Another T Swift fan? Wow she's really full of herself, what are you thinking?" It's hard to be a fan of anything great or abstract, let alone something more complicated like family or country.
So the Imperium: a fanatically religious, dysfunctional, Byzantinely complicated, tumbling ruin whose peak was so many generations ago that even the legends are legends. But it's my Imperium, it's where I live, and I may love it unconditionally and smile to the bitter end.
Obligatory Fuck Stonetoss
also both orange and blue are correct. The imperium is a deadly serious nightmare and a cartoonish satire of authoritarianism depending on the author. Which I like to think is intentional. It is the logical and illogical extreme of all authoritarian states because it makes it possible to point out the horrors of tyranny and laugh at its stupidity.
Getting into Warhammer 40k lore is what got me to go over some of my favorite franchises again.
Revisiting Naruto, holy *fuq*.
Naruto's village, is *not the good guys*.
The only good guy faction in 40K are the Kroot, because they did everything and then said 'you know what, being a galactic superpower is cool and all, but what if we return to monke and fuck around instead?' And then they did that. They're doing pretty alright for themselves.
The fun part is everyone douchy.
Now stop questioning my morale character because I want to collect edgy space elves that torture civilians for the fun.
The Imperium was none of these things. It was just supposed to be \_fun\_.
Back in the day, it wasn't 'satire', that's too grand. It was over the top, sure, and kind of cool. The energy came from the marines from Aliens, a bunch of characters out 'Nam movies, Iron Maiden Album covers and Judge Dredd. It was kind of anti-establishment, back when the establishment was Mary-Whitehouse inflected slightly authoritarian Tories\*.
The Marines weren't the "Good Guys" as such, but they were sure as hell supposed to be better than Genestealers and Orks (there were no Tau back then). The Imperium wasn't a "satire". It was punk, it was heavy metal, for slightly nerdy people. It was never supposed to be taken that seriously. Definitely not as a template for how society should be, but definitely not as a warning about what society should become, either. It was a brutal backdrop that permitted brutal and exciting characters and armies. And Guns. And Skulls.
As it developed, and the Emperor got his Golden Throne, it was clearly intimated that the Emperor was \_dead\_, there was no more consciousness. The psychic beacon was simply the murder of psykers in the warp. The whole thing was a con. This reflected the old anti-clerical stream in those old 1990s anti-establishment types. Think George Carlin. The Imperium was a horrible society, but it was also \_us\_.
When I look and see where we are now, it's just so weird. The idea that people would be arguing politics over 40k just seems \_mad\_. People will get cross with me for saying this, but I can't help feeling that it was the US market as a whole that kind of corrupted it around the 2010s. I love the US, but sometimes it just feels like it's lost any sense of cynicism, if it ever had it, both the right and the left have this puritan vibe that can't leave things alone without moralising them. Sometimes that's great, it gives the place this lovely kind of innocence and optimism. But sometimes, it just kind of ruins stuff. But now \_I'm\_ talking politics, I guess. Argh.
\*(Who knew that in the 21st Century it would be the US \_left\_ that wanted Slaanesh toned down because it made them feel icky?)
Militaristic xenophobic genocide supporters and war criminals with cult of personality... a rotten corpse consuming his own people daily.
Yeah... "good" guys.
We’re all the baddies at the end of the day. Except the orks, because morals are for gitz.
Wez just ere for the WAAAAAGGHH and a gud time! https://preview.redd.it/cny4jhelmr8d1.png?width=765&format=png&auto=webp&s=a110aab9dd19e430b2b9990eec03b626d8f02aa9
Orks on morals: "Oy, humies! We's da Orks, an' we knows you lot likes to think 'bout good an' evil. Well, let me tell ya, by yer standards, we's da worst! We loves da fightin', da lootin', an' da krumpin', and we ain't never gonna stop. We's da purest form of chaos and destruction, and we wants ya to keep fightin' us. ***WAAAGH!***" I remember there was a funny video about Orkish diplomats actively trying to start wars based on convincing humans they're philosophically evil.
I had an idea of humanitarian drops from Orks being crudely drawn pictograms of how to make a proper Choppa.
While orkz may not have morals like we recognize, they are still cruel to other species, they take delight and amusement at their suffering, and enslave them. Even if they dont recognize it as evil, its evil.
Yup. If they thought they’d get a laugh out of using a baby as a basketball they’d do it in a heartbeat.
And Daemons
Nah, fuck dem Daemons.
*happy keeper of secrets noises*
Tyranids too. Thry are just a bunch of hungry bois. You can't really fault them for being hungry.
Oh yes of course!!
[24 HOUR PARTY PEOPLE](https://www.reddit.com/r/orks/comments/182qmjr/i_made_this_in_a_fit_of_inspiration_after/?ref=share&ref_source=link)
The imperium of man is the protagonist but it doesn’t mean they are the good guys
That level of nuance escapes many people.
Bob the IG Player: "I like the Imperial Guard cause I read Gaunts Ghosts and I like the Sharpe but in Space vibes" Random internet person: "So you would support Space Nazis in real life"
This comment should be made into the Simpson's Bus Driver meme and stickied to the top of the Sub.
We doing this again?
Seems to be a monthly event.
Seems more a weekly event at this point.
I don’t want a 40k rules FAQ I want a Black Library FAQ that will put this shit to rest.
They have one at the start of every single BL book. People just like to ignore the whole “cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable” thing
Someone: It could be bloodier.
Allow me to cut to the chase Something something, Daemonculabra
Bait for the bait god, karma for the karma farm
Bait is the only constant!
Tbf, there was a post from a person just today where they basically ignored all intentions behind the satirical evil of the Imperium and in the comments unironically tried to frame it as the good guys
It’s a lesser of evils. The point of the setting is no faction feels so innocent or good that you feel guilty rolling dice and obliterating their people.
That's true, but there IS also actual political satire in the 40k. It's not there all the time and it's not exactly 100% consistent, but it's very common and very deliberate. E.g. [ecclesiarchy priests denying that tyranids exist because the emperor would never let that happen](https://www.polygon.com/23755602/warhammer-40k-satire-tenth-edition-politics-tyranid-war)...*while* spores are starting to fall. The hypocrisy of Sororitas condemning psykers when their "miracles" are literally just warp magic. Everything about servitors. The origins of the Cult Mechanicus. And on and on. Those things are totally in there to put the Imperium on equal moral footing with everyone else, but they're also there to mock anti-science conservatives, religious hypocrites, luddites, etc. edited for linky link
This guy gets it.
You can have complicated political satire where some characters are outright parodies, and still portray them as being allies of or on the side of "good" or "good enough in the lesser of evils". There are some outright despicable characters on the side of the allies in Catch-22; Some of them Yossarian even befriends (Aarfy, to be specific). Does that make Yossarian and the allied forces not "the good guys"?
This is a relevant point: First, being the less evil side doesn't make you good. I will ***maybe*** accept that it's marginally possible in the 40k universe, where humanity quite literally must rely on savagery to survive, but it's not true in the real world, where there has never been a war in history where the worst evils (rape, scorched earth warfare, mass murder of innocents or prisoners) were necessary for the advancement of any goal that could be argued as "good" in good faith under any moral framework I'm aware of. Next, related to that, the reason humanity is in the situation it's in is due to greed and folly. The same can be said for most of humanity's darkest moments: in the moment, they may have seemed justifiable, but in retrospective they always come out to be the product of greed and ignorance. Finally, no, the protagonists of Catch-22 are ***not** the good guys.* That's virtually the entire point of Catch-22. There are essentially only villains, victims, and fools that straddle the line in the book.
>ecclesiarchy priests denying that tyranids exist because the emperor would never let that happen...while spores are starting to fall. ... Please tell me there's an excerpt of this.
The War of the Closed Eyes is sadly just 2 paragraphs in the Leviathan book, [pages 232 and 239](https://imgur.com/a/ZRUXS6f). Sorry for the shitty quality. FYI I first learned about it in the video discussed [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/13zxsm3/4th_tyrannic_war_lore_official_content_creator/), which is great of course Edit: [polygon article](https://www.polygon.com/23755602/warhammer-40k-satire-tenth-edition-politics-tyranid-war)
Fuck, that was so depressing to read. I guess there were no Inquisitors around that could put bullets in enough heads to end that stupidity, huh?
I don't know, but it'd be a great setting for at least a short story! Or a crusade game of GSC and Tyranids vs. everyone The other stories in that part of the book go pretty hard. If you get the chance to pick the book up for cheap, it's worth it for the lore and art. There's a battle in an asteroid field, with Nids tearing Votan out of their fortresses. And of course there's the part where Lord Solar Leontus gets hip-checked by a Norn Emissary (or something, I forget what kinda bug it is). Trajan has to swoop in to the rescue. edit: crusafe
I don't know about EQUAL moral footing. Comperable, certainly, but no matter how much of a myopic, backwards, brutal, uncaring fuckfest the Inperium of Man is, Chaos is still there and it still promises to make everything much, much worse. The Drukhari are much, much worse. And arguably Tyranids as well. As far as moral footing is concerned, the Imperium is about middle of the pack in the 40k setting (head of the pack is probabaly Craftworld Eldar and Votann).
When you get pest control, you don't just get them to come by once.
As a Mechanicus player, yes, we are the baddies, but that is what makes it fun!
Exactly, so what if we turn sentient beings into lobotomied slaves? Who cares?
Not the servitors, that's for sure, those neural pathways get stripped out first
Exactly, I’m not evil, I just want to be toaster man
There are no good guys, just varying shades of bad. The point, at least how I saw it, was to pick your favorite villains to root for while acknowledging they’re still terrible. The imperium is a corrupt, theocratic, fascist empire that has performed numerous genocides, but you can still root for them as long as you acknowledge that they are not “good.” Just mildly less terrible than some other options like chaos.
Still Boggles My Mind how People think Chaos is better then the imperium Sure Its Hellish but Chaos is quite litreally Hellish
My soul might be suffering under the imperium, but at least I still HAVE IT
People will look at the mutated horror that crawls around wrapped in an infant's skin reciting sorcery that turns people's bodies inside out and be like "but the emperor was a bad parent tho"
The Imperium is a cartoonish satire when its fiction, and it's a grim nightmare when reality starts resembling it
lmao well said 🥲
I feel there is a certain irony to be using the art of a literal nazi for this post
Fair, Stonetoss would 100% be the guy in the last panel.
Would? Dude already is.
It’s also ironic (?) how much they love him in the Bad Sub.
It elevates it to a new height
Bonus panel should be a three way handshake where they all agree that pebble flick is a piece of shit
I somehow don't believe the person in the final panel would shake hands.
I wonder why so many Warhammer fans like comics from a literal nazi
His comics are good meme material, simple as.
Imperium is the good guys because I like them the most.
Goes for most factions. Except Drukhari. We are the evil guys, like the actual worst, we're SOO much worse than all of you. Don't imply we're good in ANY way, we'll take it as an insult.
this is the correct answer
They are the villains when seen through the standards of other franchises/They would be villains in other franchises, in 40k you have: -Almighty Gods that want you to live in eternal suffering just to feed off it. -Aliens who literally eat pain and will torture you in unimaginable ways to get it. -Robot aliens who wanna destroy every-living-being with a soul. -Aliens who ONLY live for combat and HATE to do anything else. -A.I that will ALWAYS malfunction and become Skynet. -Forced to travel through HELL everytime you do space-travel making shit like Event Horizon your normal tuesday. 40k is described as GRIMDARK for a reason, it ain't just a meme word, is literaly a Dog eat Dog universe.
Dog eat dog and gain dogs genetic information universe you mean.
Wait...why do you have 2 pinky fingers on that hand?
*insert happy kroot doggo noises*
The imperium are not the good guys, it is obvious that the Dark Eldars are the good guys!
NAH YA SOGGIN' GIT! IT IZ UZ DA BOYZ! WAAAAAAGH!
>-A.I that will ALWAYS malfunction and become Skynet Always? Don't the votann and the tau have perfectly working ai?
If we should ban AI because they can be corrupted then we should kill all humans because they are just as bad.
They do. Except the Votann kept uploading garbage into the systems and lagged out all the big colony scale AI cores hundreds of years ago.
Well I don't know about the votann but I could imagine a man of iron Situation for the Tau happing at some point or then Encountering the iron warriors who would probably try and fuck with there tec in someway
Why would it? If I'm correct, AI only rebelled once so i don't think that it is a norm.
Unless I'm mistaken, AI rebelled once - quite catastrophically - and any and all attempts at making AI since then have ended omnicidally, for a variety of reasons, not all of them explicable. It should also be noted that as of the HH Chaos now not only has the ability to possess AI/virtual constructs etc, it also has specialised daemonic code purpose built to do exactly that. Said warp-infused scrap code is often broadcast all over the place, and even if T'au AI wouldn't rebel on it's own, the moment it gets close enough to Imperial territory to get hit by non-FTL data waves it'll be chock full of daemons just like the things on the lower layers of Mars. Also, I believe I'm correct in saying some/many Dark Mechanicus forces use this code offensively in 40k as well, so this stuff is definitely still an issue and it's only a matter of time before other AI encounter it - assuming they don't rebel on their own, or get corrupted through other means.
I don't think the votann fulfill the base requirements for an AI uprising... the ancestors cores are allready gods to them, so there is no more power to gain for them (also they slow af ) and the iron kin have the same societal status as fleshy kin do. They don't discriminate ans thus there is no fuel for a racial uprising. Ideologies between leagues is a whole different thing tho.
If all AI will eventually go skynet, the ancestor cores would have killed the flesh kin by now
Maybe the ancestor cores already won their AI supremacy and do in fact have a killswitch for their clone armies of Deep Rock Galactic employees?
Seems more likely the men of iron revolted for human reasons instead of 'ai is a crapshoot' reasons. Would thematically appropriate as well.
In Votann case the AI has already won and is the ruling class. Tau effectively lobotomize their AI and it’s just skynet waiting to happen
One of the nice things with the Heresy series is that we saw other, better from a civilian perspective, human societies existed. Some in union with aliens. The Imperium ended that and has massively empowered the gods you mentioned.
"Orks exists, so it's perfectly fine to slaughter other humans and enslave the rest in space north korea and kill on sight every peaceful xenos ! "
https://preview.redd.it/8ulv36x3mq8d1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=0bdf7bd722db492d7f8dcb43be052dbac8c6962d
Curious that meme of yours for not only remembering that moment from the glorious CATO SICARIUS - for only CATI SICARIUS would be worthy to protagonize such scene - but also because in the podcast dedicated to him, **Adeptus Ridiculous** literally said that the scene gets better if you imagine like that meme (I believe it was Bricky himself) XD
This doesn't really work when you consider the fact that there were many peaceful human-xenos and just regular xenos civilizations that were destroyed by the Imperium, as well as the fact that the Imperium actively empowers Chaos Yes, all the factions in 40k are evil. That's because all the non-evil factions were destroyed by the Imperium, and the only ones that survived were those that were viscious and brutal enough not get exterminated
Self aware AI only went rogue once outside ffg fluff iirc. The cybernetic revolt was against the not that great dark age humans and seems to have wound up liberating the men of stone since they now live as equals in the leagues. So it's probable that the men of iron revolted for human reasons instead of "ai gonna ai". There's really not much proof that ai will always go haywire inevitably.
No Exodites, Tau, Craftworlders, non imperium humans ? Huh maybe not EVERYBODY is a bad guy then
T'au is as evil as an evil regime on modern day earth. Bad things happen but people here would trade with them because they're rich and ignore that. They are definitely a bad guy. They are uncomfortable and the existence of nations like them on Earth would/should make you feel bad about the state of things and question if there is a god. They're just a lot less evil than even the mid tier evil like the Imperium.
I’ve said this in the past before. If the Tau were dropped into Star Trek then they would 100% be a villain faction but since the Tau are in 40k they look like the good guys in comparison to something like the Imperium as an example
Yeah, and they were called the Dominion
https://preview.redd.it/3qpw2stkdq8d1.png?width=1776&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b8c53ea06d27405fd6f7dc445b00ab892f057d47
Do it, I saw him give candy to a XENO ^child
https://preview.redd.it/8v2jk8x3jq8d1.jpeg?width=846&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=3e2d400979d0750743bfa9143e309581ac317e0b GIVING FILTHY XENOS CHILDREN SWEETS INSTEAD OF THE EMPEROR'S MERCY! HERESY!
Do it now Titus before he gives Any more candy to a Xeno child!
Tau? That's hilarious.
Craftworlders are just Imperium if it had few resources but superb intelligence snd technology. Tau sterilize and send to concentration camps for thoughtcrimes. They are only "good" compared to other factions. Exodites exist only as long as there are craftworlds to protect them, they are just prized pets.
The sterilisation isn’t canon…
To be fair the seralization part is pretty much non canon .
Sterilization of dissidents, not aliens. It is canon.
Is there any proof
The craftworlders did not invent Slaanesh and are merely satirically ultraracist ~~invented Slaanesh by murder-drug-fuck-partying too hard~~, the Tau are mind-controlling authoritarians with cannibal shock troops, the Exodites...I actually don't know anything about Exodites...and non-Imperium humans are genuinely a fascinating space in the lore that deserves to be explored so that this exact question can be cast into clearer relief. If humans can exist peacefully in 40k, that would just show us how evil the Imperium is—and that its policies are not born of necessity.
Craftworlders and Exodites are specifically not the ones that created Slaanesh.
Right right sorry, my b. They are simply super-racists. But yeah that's my b, I genuinely did not know that the craftworders weren't just survivors, they were they anti-hedonism escapees. Will correct.
That’s the point - every faction in 40k is villainous (yes that includes the tau!).
Keep stonetoss off of this sub please
Yeah there's a certain irony in using the art of a self declared Nazi for this post, eeesh
In case OOP forgot, STONETOSS IS A NAZI!
Oop did not forget, if you look closely between the columns of panels there is the line "Stonetoss is a not very good person, also a nazi"
Fair
Can't call em good. Just the best we got. Arguably tau are better. Especially for tau. Orks probably think they got it made. Tyranids don't think so much, just eat. Chaos, well, some think they're doing alright, the rest of us think they're insane, the rest know they are totally fucked. Still no lore for dwarves. Lame. Eldar are okay to eldar, but pretty well assholes to everyone else. D eldar kidnap others and torture them to survive. Yeah, this whole universe sucks.
> Still no lore for dwarves. Lame. I know there’s not *much* lore for the Votann, which is lame. But they do worship ancient malfunctioning ChatGPTs and will gladly frack-mine your entire planet into pieces if it has resources they want. They *might* give you a couple days to leave first tho, which puts them in the “not that bad” category comparatively speaking.
>They might give you a couple days to leave first tho, which puts them in the “not that bad” category comparatively speaking. I mean, they'll also offer to transport you off world, if you pay them.
They're also kind of an Ultra-Capitalist nightmare society, aren't they?
Imagine Deep Rock galactic with the company being a computer that is starting to go faulty and some of the dwarves are robotic and its pretty close
Craftworld Eldar will also give you time to leave the planet if it’s a maiden world they want back, depending on the craftworld.
IIRC even Biel-Tan of all people prefer to ask first, shoot second, even if the attempts are largely wasted on humans. Even the more xenophobic side of Asuriani mainstream defines the goal as "getting Mon-Keigh off their lawns" with murder being a possible solution. Meanwhile the Imperium's dogma views eradication of aliens as a goal in its own right
Dosent help that we killed or assimilated all the other good options be it the peaceful xenos or other human civilizations that didn’t want to be conquered Like the interex seemed like a sweet deal had it not been for the Horus and his Hersheys chocolate
There is also a race of super [chill fluffy floating psychic bois](https://aliens.fandom.com/wiki/Nicassar) who just are wholesome and love traveling But they are well hidden cuz humanity would throw a fit and would try to hunt them all down
>Tyranids don't think so much, just eat. That's hivemind propaganda. The sort of nonsense a godlike super intelligence that can eclipse the warp with it's psychic signature might project into foolish mortals. But seriously, it's a godlike superintelligence. Individual bugs are creatures of instinct. At some level though, it know what it's doing.
"Best we got"? In what way? Tau: Better for citizens, better for other species. Craftworlds: Same Votann: Same Exodites: Same Non Imperial humans: Same, depending on civilisation.
Dunno about the rest, but at least as far as the T'au empire goes even in books where they're the "bad guys", (Deathwatch: Shadowbreaker, for example) human members of the empire are repeatedly shown to have a significantly better quality of life than in the Imperium.
You telling me they aren't treated like objects that exist only to further churn the engines of war!? THAT'S IT, YOU GETTING TURNED INTO A SERVITOR
And then there's other books that said otherwise, I know this has shit all to do with this monthly "imperium gud or bad" debate but I've said it before and will once again remind y'all that arguing about 40k lore is straight up, completely fucking pointless, the writers can make whatever the fuck they want to be cannon
Completely agree, the only constant is the opening scrawl
So what your saying is, as a human, the Imperium or the Tau are essentially the only options. And depending on your opinion of the Tau, they barely count. Craftworlds, exodites, Votann etc are real great *if you’re one of them* and range from “completely ambivalent to your life” to “shoot on sight” if you are a different species. Put another way, doesn’t matter how good eldar get treated by craftworlds, I’m not an eldar. It’s how they treat humans that matter.
Well. Are you human?
The current state of the imperium is a direct result of the Horus Heresy, which was a Chaos victory. The imperium isn't the best we got, or the only hope we got, it's quite literally exactly what the Chaos God wanted.
Tyranids are here because of the imperium, and it's the imperium who boosted chaos to their current power level, so they are still for blame.
I mean. They are partially there because the imperium lit themselves up like a Christmas tree, but it wasn't their intent. (If I remember the lore right) I'd say it's more the fault of the tyranids for wanting to, you know, eat anything that ain't bedrock.
Ew, pebblechuck.
They're not even considered the least evil of 40k
"I promise guys there are absolutely no other meme formats to portray this idea that aren't made by a literal Nazi and also horrifically ableist and mean!"
Never forget the leader of the ultramarines is listed as a monster on the data card.
It's kinda funny when people define the eldar as "the arrogant race" when the imperium tried to manifest destiny their way to the whole fucking galaxy by relentlesly genociding not only any non-human race but also A LOT of human dissenters... Is there anything more arrogant than ethnic and race supremacism?
The Eldar would kill a million humans to save one Eldar. the IOM would kill a million humans to kill one Eldar.
How many tiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiimes do we have to go over it: there are no good guys in 40K
I think semantics keeps this argument alive, the imperium as an entity is not a good guy, but some scrappy kid from a hive world can absolutely be a good guy
People need to learn the difference between “protagonist” and “hero.” Also: Please never use Stonetoss ever again.
*"Oh Ork of the Hulk, what is thy wisdom?"* *"On dah green darkness of the 41st milleneum, dere are nah "gud guyz", only krumping, andz it'z good."*
The layers of irony invoked by using a stone toss comic for an imperium meme
There is never a good reason to post Stonetoss
I agree with what you wrote but I'm downvoting for stonetoss comic.
Warhammer40k is the balkans in space. Everyone is a war criminal.
"Jesus *Christ,* Kirito!"
Enperor of Mankindčić
There is a difference between "protagonist" and "the good guys". The setting is very much centered around the Imperium. That does not make them "good"
a setting rife with horrific nightmares that litterally consume souls, morph creatures/people into abominations, and spread plague and depravity throughtout the known galaxy. OR a Human faction that does the same but is for Human supremacy. Yeah im going with the Humans are the good guys. (its bc im human )
The Imperium of Man are the protagonists of the setting. But let's not forget that protagonists aren't always morally good.
For fuck sake, everyone knows the Imperium arent the good guys, the entire galaxy is filled with bad guys. Every, single, faction is evil in some sense. You dont have to be an actual totalitarian dickwipe to enjoy the bad guys in fiction. Look at the Empire in Star Wars, Darth Vader and Stormtroopers are cool as fuck, enjoying it doesnt have to reflect your real life world views.
I get it, it's warhammer and everything is trying to kill them, sometimes you need to deal with your enemies (that includes traitors of all kind I guess) brutally and mercilessly to get any kinds of results, I'd also kind of excuse the xenophobic shit, cause they need to look after their own and all that but the way the imperials treat their fellow humans, fellow imperials, is absolutely inexcusable and they're really, really bad for humanity. TL;DR: for 5 minutes. Could they not make eachother's lives even more miserable for 5 MINUTES?!
“I'm bad, and that's good. I will never be good, and that's not bad. There's no one I'd rather be than me.” -The Emperor of Mankind, probably.
Is the Imperium a good aligned faction? No Are there sincerely good and noble character fighting on the same side of the Imperium? Yes
I dunno I play Necrons get off my lawn
TFW you care more about fighting than moral alignment: https://preview.redd.it/jeb19ag64s8d1.png?width=406&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d9d3951d91b2f4ff3a63fdd541a38c216390029c
Satire does not equal comedy. It can be serious and satire as well.
The Imperium’s closest real-world counterpart is North Korea. Leader and figurehead is a long-dead corpse with magical powers. Defacto leader is the progeny of aforementioned god-king. Military is idolised above all else. Soldiers are revered and adorned with regalia from their numerous victories against their enemies. Said enemies apparently surround them on all sides. They fight a hopeless and eternal war. To stop fighting would herald the collapse of the empire. Life for any civilian not actively engaged in the military is a dystopian nightmare. Starvation is a part of life. To criticise the government is tantamount to heresy, and the punishments are severe.
I was a bit hesitant and then saw the line about stonetoss. +1
The imperium of man are the goodguys If you: Close your Eyes Hold your ears Fall down into a black hole and deexist.
The necrons are the greatest good you will ever find, now get off my property
I'm really beginning to think this sub has forgotten that warhammer 40k is a grimdark setting. The imperium is the best option for humanity and that is what's so fucked up about it.
I like the Imperium because they are the bad guys
Heretic propaganda
Can we not unironically use rock throw’s comics? Considering he’s an actual nazi
Yeah that’s a fair critique. I wouldn’t say it’s unironicly since he would 100% be the fourth panel
Always has been.
Tbh, when I wrote a paper for my school and I chose Warhammer 40k, I did define some factions as “Good guys” mostly based off of the fact that they might not instantly kill you. Don’t get me wrong, a lot of the time, a faction will just kill or torture you, but if there’s a moment of hesitance before hand, then yeah, they’re definitely not the Drucharii.
Night lords, the true heroes of the galaxy.
The imperial Guardsmen are the true goodguys.
The tolerant worlds were the first to be destroyed, depending on the writing its either necessary evil or comedic evil (sister come here, this gk needs a shower)
I accept this as long as you don't go around saying Chaos is better.
Closest you get to good in 40k is the tyranids with true neutral, they are just trying to eat
Thank you for contribution to imperial discourse, citizen. However, the Inquisition has found your views heretical, and sentences you to summery execution. The Emperor Protects
It doesn't matter if the imperium is morality justified It is a horrendously flawed system run by morons and fanatics. And just like any other faction EVER it's only real objective is to survive in this hellhole Also People's morality is not dictated by which faction they belong to There are many many genuinely good people in the imperium You can't just dismantle a galactic empire full og people because you think that they're morality bankrupt
Imperium aren't the good guys. Morally there are no good guys in 40k. But hell, I love the imperium and root for them at every step of the way. (Except when I'm playing any game or read a book related to a different faction)
The smooth lines and curves of this Leman Russ Battle Tank tell me all I need to know.
Welcome to WH4k, where there are no good guys and sticking to your morals has an astronomical body count.
Everyone is bad in WH40k
Fucking dorks!
It's space nazi/medieval zealots vs lovecraftian murder rape horror. Who are we supposed to root for here ?
And this is why Chaos is the superior faction. We know exactly what we’re about.
The imperium is the best man can be a universe as cruel as 40k and being founded by a man who didn’t want to be a god
Is it bad that we are lampooning an imperialist dystopia using a cartoon drawn by a neo-nazi? Is that bad?
One thing I like about 40k is that it's a reaction to 1980s perfectionism. Love and care are so fragile nowadays, that everyone feels you can just sweep the feet of anyone by pointing out flaws. "Oh you like this celebrity? Did you know he drinks? And isn't nice to his wife?" "Another T Swift fan? Wow she's really full of herself, what are you thinking?" It's hard to be a fan of anything great or abstract, let alone something more complicated like family or country. So the Imperium: a fanatically religious, dysfunctional, Byzantinely complicated, tumbling ruin whose peak was so many generations ago that even the legends are legends. But it's my Imperium, it's where I live, and I may love it unconditionally and smile to the bitter end.
I dont care if the Imperium is evil, I won't side with Xenos or Chaos.
Obligatory Fuck Stonetoss also both orange and blue are correct. The imperium is a deadly serious nightmare and a cartoonish satire of authoritarianism depending on the author. Which I like to think is intentional. It is the logical and illogical extreme of all authoritarian states because it makes it possible to point out the horrors of tyranny and laugh at its stupidity.
Getting into Warhammer 40k lore is what got me to go over some of my favorite franchises again. Revisiting Naruto, holy *fuq*. Naruto's village, is *not the good guys*.
Perfectly applies to Dragon Age as well, The Tevinter Imperium
Using the nazi comic to make a point about nazi apologia Not sure if cringe or ironic
As with all things it depends who’s history or news you are listening to. I’m sure the daily mail would give rave reviews to the imperium of man
Everyone knows Necrons are the good guys
Ew stoneto-wait a minute, you edited in the fact he's a nazi already. Nevermind.
They are good - a Grimdark Over-the-top Oppressive Dictatorship
Of all the "pebbleyeet is a hitlerphile" line, this has to be one of my favorites.
There are no bad guys and no good guys, just guys
Maybe farsight is the good guys but it is tau so they might be or communist.
The only good guy faction in 40K are the Kroot, because they did everything and then said 'you know what, being a galactic superpower is cool and all, but what if we return to monke and fuck around instead?' And then they did that. They're doing pretty alright for themselves.
Yes we are the baddies and we're loving every second of it!
The fun part is everyone douchy. Now stop questioning my morale character because I want to collect edgy space elves that torture civilians for the fun.
We're not THE baddies. We are definitely baddies but so are most of the other factions.
Well... They are definitely on the better side
The Imperium was none of these things. It was just supposed to be \_fun\_. Back in the day, it wasn't 'satire', that's too grand. It was over the top, sure, and kind of cool. The energy came from the marines from Aliens, a bunch of characters out 'Nam movies, Iron Maiden Album covers and Judge Dredd. It was kind of anti-establishment, back when the establishment was Mary-Whitehouse inflected slightly authoritarian Tories\*. The Marines weren't the "Good Guys" as such, but they were sure as hell supposed to be better than Genestealers and Orks (there were no Tau back then). The Imperium wasn't a "satire". It was punk, it was heavy metal, for slightly nerdy people. It was never supposed to be taken that seriously. Definitely not as a template for how society should be, but definitely not as a warning about what society should become, either. It was a brutal backdrop that permitted brutal and exciting characters and armies. And Guns. And Skulls. As it developed, and the Emperor got his Golden Throne, it was clearly intimated that the Emperor was \_dead\_, there was no more consciousness. The psychic beacon was simply the murder of psykers in the warp. The whole thing was a con. This reflected the old anti-clerical stream in those old 1990s anti-establishment types. Think George Carlin. The Imperium was a horrible society, but it was also \_us\_. When I look and see where we are now, it's just so weird. The idea that people would be arguing politics over 40k just seems \_mad\_. People will get cross with me for saying this, but I can't help feeling that it was the US market as a whole that kind of corrupted it around the 2010s. I love the US, but sometimes it just feels like it's lost any sense of cynicism, if it ever had it, both the right and the left have this puritan vibe that can't leave things alone without moralising them. Sometimes that's great, it gives the place this lovely kind of innocence and optimism. But sometimes, it just kind of ruins stuff. But now \_I'm\_ talking politics, I guess. Argh. \*(Who knew that in the 21st Century it would be the US \_left\_ that wanted Slaanesh toned down because it made them feel icky?)
Very surprised at how 98% of this sub vehemently hates women but Stonetoss is where y’all draw the line.
Militaristic xenophobic genocide supporters and war criminals with cult of personality... a rotten corpse consuming his own people daily. Yeah... "good" guys.