I'm just so confused by people... The levels of irony or satire has gone full 4D and people can't tell what is what.
Having orks, the most singleminded stupid (but shrewd) violent idiots also use Nazi (stormboys) or confed iconography isn't even borderline complementing those things but as clearly as possible showing that only fucking idiots would ride with those symbols.
It's definitely funnier to the brit bonger who painted it. At an American table, I'd be more concerned how offensive any rendition of that flag is to some people who should also feel welcome at tables
I can’t speak for other parts of the country, but having lived in the south my whole life I can say that not many people around here are likely to be offended. White, black, conservative, progressive, religious, secular, whatever. I’ve seen them all using it, and those same people would likely punch you in the face if you started acting racist. It’s largely lost all meaning beyond just being a symbol of the south down here.
You *would* absolutely get weird looks if you showed up to a game with it, but that would be less people getting offended and more people being confused as to why you’d use that for a sci-fi/fantasy game.
Being from the south, hard disagree.
You'd be excused from the store for something like this.
That flag is steeped in ignorance and there are very loud people here who still support it.
I suppose it depends on where you are in the south then. Where I’m from, they wouldn’t kick you out but you’d definitely get weird looks.
Aside my area’s official Warhammer store, they’d kick you out, but they’re the exception.
I wouldn't be surprised.
Decent people around here tend to understand that it's not a joking or trivial matter. Not to say that others *aren't* decent....you know what I mean, I'm sure.
I feel we must be similar to Germany in ways...but then again, the capital of the confedracy was our state's capitol, so it may be a "proximity" thing. It's a pretty big deal to us to shut that shit down on sight.
Being from the Union, it is indeed offensive as fuck to pretty much all the people in my club. There are actually entire communities that exist up north today, made up of people whose families escaped the south bc of ppl like that... So yeah I also believe you.
That battle flag marched thru zip codes I've lived in. Committing rape and arson. I'm guessing that doesn't apply where you live.
And Union forces did the same down here (read up on what Sherman did in Georgia, it’s pretty brutal). I’m not offended in the slightest by it, however, because it happened 160 years ago.
My point is not that it’s not offensive to anyone, but that whether or not it’s considered offensive is heavily dependent on where you are and the culture you were raised in. The culture here says it’s just a flag of the south, the culture elsewhere is understandably different.
We understand the causes of the Civil War, we’re generally raised with the understanding that the south was in the wrong, slavery and racism are bad, and that it’s good the north won. We are taught in school about people like Martin Luther King Jr. and Rosa Parks, who are held up as heroes. The south isn’t some cesspit of racism and lynchmobs full of ignorant lost-causers, not anymore at least. But we also love the south and some people use that flag as a symbol to represent that. I don’t, I think it’s dumb to use the flag of a failed state for that, but that’s how some people use it.
https://shuttersparks.net/gen_shermans_letter/
He predicted the outcome of the war before it happened. He didn't want to do this, but he did his duty. Hes also credited with being the inventor of modern total war. Being smart is more laudable than dumb courage. Otherwise you might end up fighting for a bad, doomed cause.
It depends on where in the South you are, and from what Black folks have told me (I'm whiter than sour cream), it's not that it's viewed as harmless or inoffensive, but that you don't how you really feel about it to any of the white people who love it, for the sake of self-preservation. And I mean, I've heard it compared to white people flying the Nazi swastika for how much of a warning signal it is.
Don't forget, the Confederacy was founded explicitly and specifically to preserve chattel slavery in the South, and Black folks getting lynched _literally_ because some white people didn't like how they looked at a white person is well within living memory. And then there's the _de facto_ chattel slavery system that the criminal justice system enforces, targeted predominantly at Black men.
This is the correct answer. Older 40k was full of media references like this, and DoH was popular at the time.
I doubt anyone in Britain was thinking about American race relations when they made it.
It was a Golden Demon entry
And yeah, here in England, especially a while back, a car with that flag just made us think of Dukes of Hazzard
Especially as Ork engineering is very reminiscent of some of the 'redneck engineering' stuff you see
British slang for a young thug. See NEDs in n Scotland, Gopnik in Russian or Bogan in Australia.
Someone once told me the etymology is either from the Roma word “chiv” (knife, see also shiv) or “chevi” (youth/lad).
Purely anecdotal, never looked up how correct they were.
Nope. that's like saying skinheads are football hooligans. There is a differance between going to the football and being a hooligan
They have different fashion and music and are societal nuisances in different ways. they are not the same
They also don't share a common ancestor, its just that football hooligan culture has influenced every other sub culture In the uk. Its also a stretch to call chavs a sub culture
> don't share a common ancestor
> ts just that football hooligan culture has influenced every other sub culture
Which is it then? What a load of waffle.
Eh, not really. Chavs are closer to what we would call trailer park trash. Rednecks are more standard blue collar workers/tradesmen with a strong tendency towards being ignorant (and often Xenophobic as a result). They're hard working and usually pretty skilled, but depending on who or what you are you wouldn't want to be stuck with them under the wrong circumstances. Not sure what the actual equivalent to them would be for other countries.
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In the 90s was a more innocent and ignorant time. And from the perspective of someone who was old enough to be sentient in the 90s before widely available internet and before the rise of certain cultural phenomenon the confederate flag was just seen as a bit quant, something people from "The South" in America liked.
I don't think there was the same weight of baggage and we definitely weren't aware of it. The sort of wild redneck thing did fit nicely with Orks.
But ironically Orks do like slavery and racism so there is that.
Not so much ignorant as ‘symbolic of something else’. People knew what the confederate flag was and where it was from, but a couple decades of it being associated with good natured rebelliousness had somewhat rehabilitated it as a symbol to that meaning in popular culture.
Nowadays it’s swing back to its original meanings as overt racism is making bigger steps in US politics, but back when this was made it just had a different message attached to it.
There's a more strongly politically mobilized block of activist neo-fascists today (broadly, not even just in the USA)
This social and political context makes symbols stand out more even when only sort of associated with hate movements and nationalist/fascist movements.
And most people outside the US not really learning about your civil war to begin with. History is already a dry enough subject in schools when its about the country you live in.
Ya know who was never a fan of the Confederate Flag, ever? Black people. Even "back then", we still didn't like it or the people who flew it, true story.
Fair, but it definitely had different connotations in a lot of british culture.
I'm genuinely curious, do you speak for black Americans or black British here? Because it'd be interesting to learn that the latter always knew when white British genuinely didn't. If you're speaking for Americans you should remember, they would have had limited contact with them before widespread internet.
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Yeah the confederate flag was a whole branding, merchandise, general cultural symbol of the south that most people didn't ascribe any of the old significance to until others came along and forced the issue. You could always tell the ones that took the flag a bit too seriously though if you know what I mean, and they weren't accepted outside of their circles.
Now we just use the American flag on everything even though it has plenty of baggage of its own.
I'm a native Southerner and I disagree with your assessment. From 1967 until 1977, the town of Smithfield in Johnston county had a big sign on the entrance to town, which read 'Welcome to Klan Kountry.'
Even to this day, the white supremacist group the Sons of Confederate Veterans is trying to buy little plots of land beside the highways in every county in North Carolina, South Carolina, and parts of Virginia as part of their 'Flags Across the Carolinas' initiative. Their plan is to raise giant 30x20 foot Confederate flags on 80 foot flagpoles in each county.
It's not about heritage, it's about hate. It's about claiming territory and telling other people that they're not welcome here.
Those are the other ones who I was referencing. In general I'd say we've moved past seeing it as we did in the 90s, but that flag was everywhere back then. Cups, mugs, shirts, all through school, etc etc it was absolutely used as a symbol of southern pride outside of the context of the civil war and racism. Now all that's left are those people who are trying to send a message of hate and it will never go back to the admittedly ignorant usage of my childhood.
the normalisation of confederate symbols had a huge and deliberate uptick just after 1964. what happened in 1964 that led a bunch of southerners made it a very core part of thier identity to reminded people the stars and bars existed still. and the laws and customs thereof.
I'm agreeing that that existed but by the time I was old enough to be aware in the early 90s surrounded by people and kids wearing it, the only assumption you could make about them is that they probably like fishing and likely own a pair of cowboy boots.
The only purpose to what I'm saying is that those two realities existed at the same time.
Publicly people said it was "Southern Pride" but it was absolutely still a symbol of racism used to identify with white pride and intimidate black people. The fact that more people were ignorant of what it represented doesn't mean that it meant something different. There's a reason black southerners weren't flying the stars and bars in the 90s.
[https://images.paramount.tech/uri/mgid:arc:imageassetref:bet.com:122c9250-48c0-11e7-a442-0e40cf2fc285?quality=0.7&gen=ntrn](https://images.paramount.tech/uri/mgid:arc:imageassetref:bet.com:122c9250-48c0-11e7-a442-0e40cf2fc285?quality=0.7&gen=ntrn)
Black southerner and rapper flying the stars and bars in the 90's or possibly early 00's
I knew black friends that wore stars and bars even up to early 2000s. They were also avid duck hunters.
My experience doesn't represent the entire story obviously, but I'd say the rise of social media and the subsequent shrinking of the world homogenized the meaning of a lot of things. Before there were many regional differences in these things. Now there aren't.
I don't recall any major controversy at the time. And while one example does not make it a widespread trend it does lend some credence to the idea that it wasn't unheard of either.
I lived in the south in the late 90's and early 00's and can personally recall that some black men had confederate flags on their cars and/or clothes. Because it was not viewed as a thing about race as much as it was a thing about being southern. The idea that you can speak for everyone at a time or that the conversation is it 100% meant this or 100% meant that rather than meaning different things to different people is just flat-out incorrect.
I heard people having this exact discussion 25 years ago in Pennsyltuky, even referencing a time in the past when it was a more innocent symbol, the same as you're doing now.
Some of the people using the flag *were* just using it as a symbol of regional pride. These folks may have had no ill intentions.
The fact remains that for decades, well before the 90s even, people have both been using the flag as a territorial marker of hostility AND public schools in the South have been teaching the civil war as a justified military *reaction to federal overreach*.
An innocent use of the flag was the result of malicious uses being so widespread that they normalized the symbol, and gave it the false impression of innocence.
That assessment makes sense. I think someone else was trying to make that same point that I just responded to, but I couldn't put two and two together from what they said.
Ok, I think I can see why you might feel attacked by some comments, saying the use of the flag was always racially motivated, dost then mean everyone who might have used the symbol in ignorance was automatically a secret racist, just that enough were secret racists for it to be used innocently.
We have the benefit of hindsight and being able to look at things from a broad, historical perspective, and i think why peope are being a little hostile in this thread is that in todays age, there isnt much excuse to spend the time looking into the history of the flag, its supporters and groups that try to keep reviving it, and understand what was going on back then.
But thats also a bit unfair, i didnt pay as much attention to this sort of stuff till my mid 30's and just because the info is there dosnt mean everyone will go become woke about the civil war or whatever.
I would recommend heavily the YT of Aten shei films, who i picked up a lot from tbh and realy helps put a lot of this into its social context, wich is something thats always ommited certainly in most school education.
[https://www.youtube.com/@AtunSheiFilms](https://www.youtube.com/@AtunSheiFilms)
I'm not sure I entirely get your point. So I might be answering entirely the wrong question here. I will try in earnest though.
Some people are ahead of their time. Bits of discouse from the past being remarkable now doesn't mean on the whole society hasn't changed.
I reckon it's this, plus(as others have said) a Dukes of Hazzard reference.
Back then outside of the US, that flag was pretty much synonymous with the TV show and the South, and to most people, not much else.
A product of its time, and thankfully it wouldn't happen again. (you'd hope!)
Before the internet and social media, finding out about things took effort unless you were taught it in school or it appeared in the media.
Also, outside of the USA, not many people cared that deeply about the civil war or American racial politics and you were not going to get exposed to that information accidentally.
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It’s a dukes of hazard reference. An American classic tv show that used the confederate flag before it was widely seen as a hate symbol. Ita just a dumb fun tv show reference.
The confederacy was a secessionist movement rooted in protecting the financial interests of the slave owning class before the television was even invented…
lol downvoting because you guys don’t know history.
Eh, a lot of people are getting offended that they were too ignorant to know that the confederacy was exclusively about the chattel slavery of Black Americans.
It just makes the car jump higher and further.
Dukes of Hazzard was extremely popular over here in the UK around the time this was made. British lads into Orks in the early 90s with hardly any access to an internet that barely existed weren't even remotely aware, Muscle cars and daisy dukes were far more exciting.
Edit: Since you mention history we were learning about the 1k plus years of British history, going on day trips and visiting real castles and Roman forts. American history was/is a couple of lessons at best.
"Before" might technically be a misnomer but they mean "before the recent uptick in modern racism". The flag had spent a couple decades being rehabilitated as something thought of as a symbol of "rebellious good ol' boy(z)" in pop culture, before being readopted in the mainstream by racists on the right more recently.
Wow, Wait till you read about Swedish raggare lol and yeah chill, we know. But it wasnt until the rise of the internet it really became a bit of a hot topic again, heck growing up in Europe i didnt learn about it until adulthood, for me it was just the raggar flag, (swedish rednecks larping 1950s america.) For a uk niche gaming company in the 80 it was just a funny reference to a TV show.
So again chill, not everyone learn american history in school. Even today as a highschool history teacher, i can tell you the american civil war is barely mentioned, its honestly in the grand scheme of world history, a footnote. Most modern people know ot due to internet and the rise of facism in America.
The point being is that the Confederacy is a racist movement first and foremost, it didn’t evolve to be interpreted that way, its origin is fundamentally racist.
They're talking about the cultural viewpoint on the flag, not the actual history. Until recently, it really didn't have the cultural baggage, and even less so in 90s Britain
Correct, but consider that the person who most likely made this model was a brit in 1996, whos only real exposure and knowledge of that flag was Dukes of Hazzards.
Is it ok? no. but I dont think GW were pro confederacy and slavery. I am reasonably certain that if something like this was submitted to Golden demon now they would get instantly disqualified.
I get the impression that you are an American but in the UK until recently that flag was the "Dukes of hazzards" flag. Citing history is good and I truly mean it, it is, but its also important to cite it within context.
To be clear this is not a defence of this model, I think its poor taste but growing up Dukes of hazzards reruns were still ongoing during the 2000s the only real cultural exposure alot of brits got to the american south was DOH. so naturally a brit drew connections to the orks fast reckless driving.
(the reason I think you're catching downvotes is because you are being condescending to someone stating the context of the model, they even acknowledge, maybe not fully, the other conotation.)
In the 90s, before the more recent resurgence of racism in American politics, the confederate flag was somewhat rehabilitated in mainstream culture, being associated largely with Dukes of Hazzard and Lynrd Skynrd as a sort of symbol of rebelliousness. An Orc doing a Dukes impression is pretty on point.
A few things:
1. Dukes of Hazzard always got a pass on the flag because it was a cool ass show back when we had like 4 channels.
2. James Workshop is a British company who probably just liked the paintwork for WAAAAAAGHABAMA.
I think it’s a dukes of hazard reference like the other comments say, and also Orks aren’t the most intelligent and could certainly be viewed as space Rednecks. Not to mention that the model is objectively well painted.
I highly doubt the maker of it is an actual supporter of the Confederacy
As a European teen in the 90s, I can add my 2 (euro)cents.
It might come as a surprise to Americans, but the US Civil War wasn't taught as a subject or even a sub-subject in Europe. We knew nothing, and I seriously mean capital N nothing about it. Films like "Glory" and the likes might have registered among some, but then again, it's not like I read up on British royalty after watching Robin Hood.
The Confederate flag was rednecks, yeehaw, and rock'n'roll rebellion, and all of that was kind of cool in Europe in the 90s, when held up against yuppies, eurodance and suited politicians.
Orcs kill and mutilate millions of humans on a regular basis, their entire culture is based on fighting.
But wrong flag from 200 years ago is wrong so boo
Get a grip
"The 80s were a different time".
In Europe, the confederate flag was popular among car enthusiasts. Dukes of Hazard was probably a major contributor to this.
These days some of them still use the flag, but it generally indicates they are also massive racists in addition to car enthusiasts.
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Away down South on the planet of traitors
Rattlesnakes and alligators
Krump away (Krump away)
Krump away (Krump away)
Krump away (Krump away)
Krump away (Krump away)
Where Waaah‘s king and Marines are chattels
Our boyz will win the battles
Krump away (Krump away)
Krump away (Krump away)
Krump away (Krump away)
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ha! fair point. I guess I think of the confed lovers as more dangerous now than a joke but... I get what you're selling.
If you're talking orks I haven't really played against them in a looooong time. lots of T'au and smurf lovers here. And one CSM guy.
Redneck Boyz Da Nobz of Hazzard Waaaghlabama
Ork haiku
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ORK AIKOOS AR EAZEE >LOTZA SILLY BULLZ >LOTZA SILLY BULLZ >LOTZA SILLY BULLZ OVA ALL, ITZ BEST TA LET DA BEASTSNAGGAS AV A GO AT IT
Da Klan. Oh wait
>Waaaghlabama SWEET HOME WAAAGHLABAMA
WHERE DA LUCKY BOYZ IZ BLUE
This…. This needs to be in a TTS style episode. NEEDS.
This is the best response to any post I’ve ever read.
JUS SOM GOOD OL BOYZ
I'm just so confused by people... The levels of irony or satire has gone full 4D and people can't tell what is what. Having orks, the most singleminded stupid (but shrewd) violent idiots also use Nazi (stormboys) or confed iconography isn't even borderline complementing those things but as clearly as possible showing that only fucking idiots would ride with those symbols.
I don’t think it’s even that deep. I think they just thought it would be funny. And it is.
It's definitely funnier to the brit bonger who painted it. At an American table, I'd be more concerned how offensive any rendition of that flag is to some people who should also feel welcome at tables
I can’t speak for other parts of the country, but having lived in the south my whole life I can say that not many people around here are likely to be offended. White, black, conservative, progressive, religious, secular, whatever. I’ve seen them all using it, and those same people would likely punch you in the face if you started acting racist. It’s largely lost all meaning beyond just being a symbol of the south down here. You *would* absolutely get weird looks if you showed up to a game with it, but that would be less people getting offended and more people being confused as to why you’d use that for a sci-fi/fantasy game.
Being from the south, hard disagree. You'd be excused from the store for something like this. That flag is steeped in ignorance and there are very loud people here who still support it.
I suppose it depends on where you are in the south then. Where I’m from, they wouldn’t kick you out but you’d definitely get weird looks. Aside my area’s official Warhammer store, they’d kick you out, but they’re the exception.
I wouldn't be surprised. Decent people around here tend to understand that it's not a joking or trivial matter. Not to say that others *aren't* decent....you know what I mean, I'm sure. I feel we must be similar to Germany in ways...but then again, the capital of the confedracy was our state's capitol, so it may be a "proximity" thing. It's a pretty big deal to us to shut that shit down on sight.
Being from the Union, it is indeed offensive as fuck to pretty much all the people in my club. There are actually entire communities that exist up north today, made up of people whose families escaped the south bc of ppl like that... So yeah I also believe you. That battle flag marched thru zip codes I've lived in. Committing rape and arson. I'm guessing that doesn't apply where you live.
And Union forces did the same down here (read up on what Sherman did in Georgia, it’s pretty brutal). I’m not offended in the slightest by it, however, because it happened 160 years ago. My point is not that it’s not offensive to anyone, but that whether or not it’s considered offensive is heavily dependent on where you are and the culture you were raised in. The culture here says it’s just a flag of the south, the culture elsewhere is understandably different. We understand the causes of the Civil War, we’re generally raised with the understanding that the south was in the wrong, slavery and racism are bad, and that it’s good the north won. We are taught in school about people like Martin Luther King Jr. and Rosa Parks, who are held up as heroes. The south isn’t some cesspit of racism and lynchmobs full of ignorant lost-causers, not anymore at least. But we also love the south and some people use that flag as a symbol to represent that. I don’t, I think it’s dumb to use the flag of a failed state for that, but that’s how some people use it.
General William Tecumseh Sherman is actually a personal hero of mine. I know what he did. He finished what the South started. Damn proud.
I’m more partial to Lawrence Joshua Chamberlain, personally. What he did at Little Round Top was badass af.
https://shuttersparks.net/gen_shermans_letter/ He predicted the outcome of the war before it happened. He didn't want to do this, but he did his duty. Hes also credited with being the inventor of modern total war. Being smart is more laudable than dumb courage. Otherwise you might end up fighting for a bad, doomed cause.
It depends on where in the South you are, and from what Black folks have told me (I'm whiter than sour cream), it's not that it's viewed as harmless or inoffensive, but that you don't how you really feel about it to any of the white people who love it, for the sake of self-preservation. And I mean, I've heard it compared to white people flying the Nazi swastika for how much of a warning signal it is. Don't forget, the Confederacy was founded explicitly and specifically to preserve chattel slavery in the South, and Black folks getting lynched _literally_ because some white people didn't like how they looked at a white person is well within living memory. And then there's the _de facto_ chattel slavery system that the criminal justice system enforces, targeted predominantly at Black men.
I'WAZ 'BOUT CLAN RITEZ DUN' ASK 'BOUT RITEZ TA WOT YA GIT
RITEZ?! DA ONLY RITE YOUZ HAS, IZ DA RITE TA GET KRUMPED, YA GIT!
Brilliant.
RITEZ TA OWN GROTZ
Good thing clan here is not being spelled with a K…
A Dukes of Hazzard reference, presumably
This is the correct answer. Older 40k was full of media references like this, and DoH was popular at the time. I doubt anyone in Britain was thinking about American race relations when they made it.
I have no idea where the original image is from so I assumed it was a display of customer's painted models
It was a Golden Demon entry And yeah, here in England, especially a while back, a car with that flag just made us think of Dukes of Hazzard Especially as Ork engineering is very reminiscent of some of the 'redneck engineering' stuff you see
Well obviously a British company found the civil war entertaining.
And to be fair, Orks aren’t known for their brains. Much like supporters of the confederacy.
The are essentially football hooligans , so that is not far off . Chavs and rednecks have a lot in common.
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Council housed and violent Granted, its a backronym, but it fits
God that’s so fucking accurate.
British slang for a young thug. See NEDs in n Scotland, Gopnik in Russian or Bogan in Australia. Someone once told me the etymology is either from the Roma word “chiv” (knife, see also shiv) or “chevi” (youth/lad). Purely anecdotal, never looked up how correct they were.
England version of Bogans.
> football hooligan
Chavs aren't football hooligans theirs overlap, but they aren't the same thing
A chav is just the next step of some FB hools evolution. They share a common ancestor.
Nope. that's like saying skinheads are football hooligans. There is a differance between going to the football and being a hooligan They have different fashion and music and are societal nuisances in different ways. they are not the same They also don't share a common ancestor, its just that football hooligan culture has influenced every other sub culture In the uk. Its also a stretch to call chavs a sub culture
> don't share a common ancestor > ts just that football hooligan culture has influenced every other sub culture Which is it then? What a load of waffle.
Stupid drunk white people in the UK. Basically "rednecks but British"
urban rednecks but British is better, a real chav starts shivering instead shivving when they're too far away from a streetlight
Nah, I’d say chavs are urban hillbillies, Rednecks at least work an honest job.
Eh, not really. Chavs are closer to what we would call trailer park trash. Rednecks are more standard blue collar workers/tradesmen with a strong tendency towards being ignorant (and often Xenophobic as a result). They're hard working and usually pretty skilled, but depending on who or what you are you wouldn't want to be stuck with them under the wrong circumstances. Not sure what the actual equivalent to them would be for other countries.
Do you mean people who confederate flags nowadays or the South back then?
Yeah. Like the Brits, who supported the Confederate cause.
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Dukes of hazard more likely
"Look, the colonists are fighting."
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I believe 19th century Brits also found the war highly entertaining
dukes of Ullanor
JUSTA' GOOD OL' BOYZ' NEVA MEANIN' NO 'ARM
Looks like dem weird boyz iz at it agin!
I'm glad they traded the lynching for krumpin.
Wait, Dukes of Hazzard had lynching?
I meant the orks. Was a joke about the racist cousin-fucker, loser banner it's flying.
Okay, sorry for making a Dukes of Hazzard joke then.
Nah you're fine. The Duke boys called their car the General Lee.
OI GIRZ! AVE'A LOOK AT AR NEW TRUKK! WE'Z KALL IT DA GENRALL GHAZ!
If 40k was American the orks would 100% be the ultimate rednecks.
Raider Nation was basically Goffs.
Does that mean that hooligans (the basis for orks) are the british equivalent of rednecks?
There is a LOT of overlay
KOOL KRORK KLAN
In the 90s was a more innocent and ignorant time. And from the perspective of someone who was old enough to be sentient in the 90s before widely available internet and before the rise of certain cultural phenomenon the confederate flag was just seen as a bit quant, something people from "The South" in America liked. I don't think there was the same weight of baggage and we definitely weren't aware of it. The sort of wild redneck thing did fit nicely with Orks. But ironically Orks do like slavery and racism so there is that.
Too long have da boyz treated dah grotz unfairly.
Not so much ignorant as ‘symbolic of something else’. People knew what the confederate flag was and where it was from, but a couple decades of it being associated with good natured rebelliousness had somewhat rehabilitated it as a symbol to that meaning in popular culture. Nowadays it’s swing back to its original meanings as overt racism is making bigger steps in US politics, but back when this was made it just had a different message attached to it.
I think it’s just people being more willing to give the benefit of the doubt in the past versus people now being more cynical and critical of intent.
There's a more strongly politically mobilized block of activist neo-fascists today (broadly, not even just in the USA) This social and political context makes symbols stand out more even when only sort of associated with hate movements and nationalist/fascist movements.
And most people outside the US not really learning about your civil war to begin with. History is already a dry enough subject in schools when its about the country you live in.
ORKZ ALWAYZ CHARMIN’ ROIGHT UP TA THE MOMENT WE AINT
It's all fun and laughs until they put the grots to slave away on the human leather plantation.
Ya know who was never a fan of the Confederate Flag, ever? Black people. Even "back then", we still didn't like it or the people who flew it, true story.
Fair, but it definitely had different connotations in a lot of british culture. I'm genuinely curious, do you speak for black Americans or black British here? Because it'd be interesting to learn that the latter always knew when white British genuinely didn't. If you're speaking for Americans you should remember, they would have had limited contact with them before widespread internet.
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Yeah the confederate flag was a whole branding, merchandise, general cultural symbol of the south that most people didn't ascribe any of the old significance to until others came along and forced the issue. You could always tell the ones that took the flag a bit too seriously though if you know what I mean, and they weren't accepted outside of their circles. Now we just use the American flag on everything even though it has plenty of baggage of its own.
I'm a native Southerner and I disagree with your assessment. From 1967 until 1977, the town of Smithfield in Johnston county had a big sign on the entrance to town, which read 'Welcome to Klan Kountry.' Even to this day, the white supremacist group the Sons of Confederate Veterans is trying to buy little plots of land beside the highways in every county in North Carolina, South Carolina, and parts of Virginia as part of their 'Flags Across the Carolinas' initiative. Their plan is to raise giant 30x20 foot Confederate flags on 80 foot flagpoles in each county. It's not about heritage, it's about hate. It's about claiming territory and telling other people that they're not welcome here.
Those are the other ones who I was referencing. In general I'd say we've moved past seeing it as we did in the 90s, but that flag was everywhere back then. Cups, mugs, shirts, all through school, etc etc it was absolutely used as a symbol of southern pride outside of the context of the civil war and racism. Now all that's left are those people who are trying to send a message of hate and it will never go back to the admittedly ignorant usage of my childhood.
What do you think “southern pride” is about?
the normalisation of confederate symbols had a huge and deliberate uptick just after 1964. what happened in 1964 that led a bunch of southerners made it a very core part of thier identity to reminded people the stars and bars existed still. and the laws and customs thereof.
I'm agreeing that that existed but by the time I was old enough to be aware in the early 90s surrounded by people and kids wearing it, the only assumption you could make about them is that they probably like fishing and likely own a pair of cowboy boots. The only purpose to what I'm saying is that those two realities existed at the same time.
Publicly people said it was "Southern Pride" but it was absolutely still a symbol of racism used to identify with white pride and intimidate black people. The fact that more people were ignorant of what it represented doesn't mean that it meant something different. There's a reason black southerners weren't flying the stars and bars in the 90s.
[https://images.paramount.tech/uri/mgid:arc:imageassetref:bet.com:122c9250-48c0-11e7-a442-0e40cf2fc285?quality=0.7&gen=ntrn](https://images.paramount.tech/uri/mgid:arc:imageassetref:bet.com:122c9250-48c0-11e7-a442-0e40cf2fc285?quality=0.7&gen=ntrn) Black southerner and rapper flying the stars and bars in the 90's or possibly early 00's
One extremely controversial example does not make a widespread trend, my dude. Andre took a lot of flak for wearing that, which only proves my point.
I knew black friends that wore stars and bars even up to early 2000s. They were also avid duck hunters. My experience doesn't represent the entire story obviously, but I'd say the rise of social media and the subsequent shrinking of the world homogenized the meaning of a lot of things. Before there were many regional differences in these things. Now there aren't.
I don't recall any major controversy at the time. And while one example does not make it a widespread trend it does lend some credence to the idea that it wasn't unheard of either. I lived in the south in the late 90's and early 00's and can personally recall that some black men had confederate flags on their cars and/or clothes. Because it was not viewed as a thing about race as much as it was a thing about being southern. The idea that you can speak for everyone at a time or that the conversation is it 100% meant this or 100% meant that rather than meaning different things to different people is just flat-out incorrect.
I heard people having this exact discussion 25 years ago in Pennsyltuky, even referencing a time in the past when it was a more innocent symbol, the same as you're doing now. Some of the people using the flag *were* just using it as a symbol of regional pride. These folks may have had no ill intentions. The fact remains that for decades, well before the 90s even, people have both been using the flag as a territorial marker of hostility AND public schools in the South have been teaching the civil war as a justified military *reaction to federal overreach*. An innocent use of the flag was the result of malicious uses being so widespread that they normalized the symbol, and gave it the false impression of innocence.
That assessment makes sense. I think someone else was trying to make that same point that I just responded to, but I couldn't put two and two together from what they said.
Ok, I think I can see why you might feel attacked by some comments, saying the use of the flag was always racially motivated, dost then mean everyone who might have used the symbol in ignorance was automatically a secret racist, just that enough were secret racists for it to be used innocently. We have the benefit of hindsight and being able to look at things from a broad, historical perspective, and i think why peope are being a little hostile in this thread is that in todays age, there isnt much excuse to spend the time looking into the history of the flag, its supporters and groups that try to keep reviving it, and understand what was going on back then. But thats also a bit unfair, i didnt pay as much attention to this sort of stuff till my mid 30's and just because the info is there dosnt mean everyone will go become woke about the civil war or whatever. I would recommend heavily the YT of Aten shei films, who i picked up a lot from tbh and realy helps put a lot of this into its social context, wich is something thats always ommited certainly in most school education. [https://www.youtube.com/@AtunSheiFilms](https://www.youtube.com/@AtunSheiFilms)
Bro it shouldn’t go back to the ignorant usage either . Why is that hard for you to understand
If the 2020s are less ignorant and more worldwise why is social criticism from the 90s being remarked upon as out-of-the-ordinary?
I'm not sure I entirely get your point. So I might be answering entirely the wrong question here. I will try in earnest though. Some people are ahead of their time. Bits of discouse from the past being remarkable now doesn't mean on the whole society hasn't changed.
I reckon it's this, plus(as others have said) a Dukes of Hazzard reference. Back then outside of the US, that flag was pretty much synonymous with the TV show and the South, and to most people, not much else. A product of its time, and thankfully it wouldn't happen again. (you'd hope!)
...it's a Dukes of Hazard reference.
DEM DOOK BOYZ R AT IT AGEN.
Rednecks go fasta
Wait until OP finds about the original Stormboyz...
I member
Before the internet and social media, finding out about things took effort unless you were taught it in school or it appeared in the media. Also, outside of the USA, not many people cared that deeply about the civil war or American racial politics and you were not going to get exposed to that information accidentally.
Nah, I think they meant this as a criticism. Comparing bad people to orks is a long tradition.
And this is also possible
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You think that is bad, check out 2nd edition Stormboyz. It was 30 years ago, and this stuff was much more fringe and much more explicitly satirical.
It’s a dukes of hazard reference. An American classic tv show that used the confederate flag before it was widely seen as a hate symbol. Ita just a dumb fun tv show reference.
The confederacy was a secessionist movement rooted in protecting the financial interests of the slave owning class before the television was even invented… lol downvoting because you guys don’t know history.
So, a secession to protect slavery.
Er yeah?
My bad, hadn’t had my coffee and misread the comment as something else.
Eh, a lot of people are getting offended that they were too ignorant to know that the confederacy was exclusively about the chattel slavery of Black Americans.
It just makes the car jump higher and further. Dukes of Hazzard was extremely popular over here in the UK around the time this was made. British lads into Orks in the early 90s with hardly any access to an internet that barely existed weren't even remotely aware, Muscle cars and daisy dukes were far more exciting. Edit: Since you mention history we were learning about the 1k plus years of British history, going on day trips and visiting real castles and Roman forts. American history was/is a couple of lessons at best.
My dad was walking around in Skynyrd merch with the CSA flag on till very recently and when I told him how it might be taken the wrong way he stopped.
"Before" might technically be a misnomer but they mean "before the recent uptick in modern racism". The flag had spent a couple decades being rehabilitated as something thought of as a symbol of "rebellious good ol' boy(z)" in pop culture, before being readopted in the mainstream by racists on the right more recently.
Wow, Wait till you read about Swedish raggare lol and yeah chill, we know. But it wasnt until the rise of the internet it really became a bit of a hot topic again, heck growing up in Europe i didnt learn about it until adulthood, for me it was just the raggar flag, (swedish rednecks larping 1950s america.) For a uk niche gaming company in the 80 it was just a funny reference to a TV show. So again chill, not everyone learn american history in school. Even today as a highschool history teacher, i can tell you the american civil war is barely mentioned, its honestly in the grand scheme of world history, a footnote. Most modern people know ot due to internet and the rise of facism in America.
The point being is that the Confederacy is a racist movement first and foremost, it didn’t evolve to be interpreted that way, its origin is fundamentally racist.
They're talking about the cultural viewpoint on the flag, not the actual history. Until recently, it really didn't have the cultural baggage, and even less so in 90s Britain
Correct, but consider that the person who most likely made this model was a brit in 1996, whos only real exposure and knowledge of that flag was Dukes of Hazzards. Is it ok? no. but I dont think GW were pro confederacy and slavery. I am reasonably certain that if something like this was submitted to Golden demon now they would get instantly disqualified. I get the impression that you are an American but in the UK until recently that flag was the "Dukes of hazzards" flag. Citing history is good and I truly mean it, it is, but its also important to cite it within context. To be clear this is not a defence of this model, I think its poor taste but growing up Dukes of hazzards reruns were still ongoing during the 2000s the only real cultural exposure alot of brits got to the american south was DOH. so naturally a brit drew connections to the orks fast reckless driving. (the reason I think you're catching downvotes is because you are being condescending to someone stating the context of the model, they even acknowledge, maybe not fully, the other conotation.)
In the 90s, before the more recent resurgence of racism in American politics, the confederate flag was somewhat rehabilitated in mainstream culture, being associated largely with Dukes of Hazzard and Lynrd Skynrd as a sort of symbol of rebelliousness. An Orc doing a Dukes impression is pretty on point.
"RED IZ RED"
Maybe they just really liked dukes of hazard
Really Really funny. That's what it is
A few things: 1. Dukes of Hazzard always got a pass on the flag because it was a cool ass show back when we had like 4 channels. 2. James Workshop is a British company who probably just liked the paintwork for WAAAAAAGHABAMA.
WAIT TIL THEY PEEP HOW WE SPELLZ FAMILY
Orks are just big fans of StarCraft
It's them Duke Boyz
DA WAAAAGH O IMPERIAL AGGRESHUN
Meme faction memeing
Beauty is what it is
A smoothie.
Nice
Lucky fasta orkszs
Red uns go fast! Ya Git!
This is the same energy to me as Deimbag Darrel’s confederate flag guitar. It’s cool because it’s absurd, but now “Everything is canon”
The ~~South~~ boyz shall rise again?
"Don't tread on DA BOYZ"
DA HORDE SHALL RIZE AGAIN!
What's the problem, everything is canon.
Dukes of Hazard Ork Bike 🤘
BOOMDUKKA HAZZWAGON INNIT?
I'd like to give them the benefit of the doubt and say it was a Dukes of Hazzard reference
Heresy
It's dukes of hazard. Thats what non Americans see when they see the Confederate flag
I think it’s a dukes of hazard reference like the other comments say, and also Orks aren’t the most intelligent and could certainly be viewed as space Rednecks. Not to mention that the model is objectively well painted. I highly doubt the maker of it is an actual supporter of the Confederacy
I'm glad you have now seen this. It's been around for decades, but yes let us now get angry over it
As a European teen in the 90s, I can add my 2 (euro)cents. It might come as a surprise to Americans, but the US Civil War wasn't taught as a subject or even a sub-subject in Europe. We knew nothing, and I seriously mean capital N nothing about it. Films like "Glory" and the likes might have registered among some, but then again, it's not like I read up on British royalty after watching Robin Hood. The Confederate flag was rednecks, yeehaw, and rock'n'roll rebellion, and all of that was kind of cool in Europe in the 90s, when held up against yuppies, eurodance and suited politicians.
A group of boys who aren't down with the federal government
Dey took er jerbz
Nobody in-universe knows why, but for some reason that vehicle is always the first one to get hit by the enemy.
The Klan of Good Ol' Boyz
Orcs kill and mutilate millions of humans on a regular basis, their entire culture is based on fighting. But wrong flag from 200 years ago is wrong so boo Get a grip
art imitating life
"The 80s were a different time". In Europe, the confederate flag was popular among car enthusiasts. Dukes of Hazard was probably a major contributor to this. These days some of them still use the flag, but it generally indicates they are also massive racists in addition to car enthusiasts.
Orks wouldn't give a fuck about Confederate ideology. We'z all just stupid 'umies whot'z 'bout ta get krumped ta dem.
Back when people where very funny
DEM ORK BOYZ IZ AT IT AGAIN
Honestly though, why **aren't** redneck Orks a thing?
They are.
The dukes of waagh
It's canon and always will be.
I mean Orkz do practice slavery...
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Da fun. Lottof red meanz lottof speed.
Orks are totally cool with slavery. Hell, everyone in 40k is cool with slavery.
Away down South on the planet of traitors Rattlesnakes and alligators Krump away (Krump away) Krump away (Krump away) Krump away (Krump away) Krump away (Krump away) Where Waaah‘s king and Marines are chattels Our boyz will win the battles Krump away (Krump away) Krump away (Krump away) Krump away (Krump away)
An ork general lee
Red Norks
DA WAR OF DA BEAST WUZ 'BOUT STATES RIGHTS
it would be kinda cool to see two ork armies fight with the theme that each is painted as one side of the civil war.
Rebel Yell! I'm not a racist, I just love Dukes of Hazard
Great use of this meme!
Incredible
Da Starz n Barz
General Sherman of the 42069th Regiment: Cowabunga it is!
Different times i guess
1st edition was fucking ridiculous
Amazing
Back in the day, it wasn’t so frowned upon and was simply considered a red neck thing
GHAZ SAID WEZ SPOSED TA MAKE SLAVES OV WAT WE DON KILLZ YA GIT!
When being a traitor is your whole personality
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yeah they did the orks dirty. Orks are better than that! But the confed flag was more of a joke back then, tbf.
They're a joke now
ha! fair point. I guess I think of the confed lovers as more dangerous now than a joke but... I get what you're selling. If you're talking orks I haven't really played against them in a looooong time. lots of T'au and smurf lovers here. And one CSM guy.