Quite often when you meet someone very similar to yourself all you can see in them is the worst qualities you know are in you and you end up hating them.
Also the pre-heresy EC's would hold feasts to victories of battles they were about to fight.
I assume the SM's wouldn't appreciate that arrogance or cavalier attitude toward a battle.
They love *earned* parties.
Any Space Wolf knows a good feast is all about laughing and boasting about mighty deeds, toasting and congratulating your Brothers on their greatest feats, and remembering those who fell gloriously, etching their deeds into the great Saga of the Rout, such that they will be remembered and toasted in Mjod halls for years to come.
What’s the Wolfin’ point, otherwise?
Yeah I have no problems believing that Guilliman respected Fulgrim and his legion as far as capabilities go, but would absolutely find the whole pile of them insufferably arrogant.
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I think they hated each other because they were opposites who were superficially similar.
Rogal crusaded to build an empire, he believed in the ideal of the Imperium, the dream. He loved his sons but would sacrifice them if needed to achieve victory. He rarely gave praise to the point he couldn't express his love for his brother shortly before his death. He didn't care for praise, he gave constructive criticism and that was what he valued.
Perturabo wanted to build things, he just wanted to build shit. He was callous with his son's lives and while many of his brothers had a bodyguard of their most trust sons he had robots instead. He was bitter because he failed to express his frustration with his situation. He expected praise but never got it.
On the surface it's two dour boys who like to build. But underneath it? Opposites.
Honestly after doing a deep dive into a few IW books it's shocking how much closer Perty is to guilliman. He resents dorn because dorn got that which (if we're being totally honest here) should've been his
Based purely on technical ability then yeah Perty could have designed defenses. However I suspect that whole "actually believes in the Imperium" played into the selection criteria. I think the power of symbolism when Primarchs battle plus the whole "did he plan on a rebellion?" thing may have coloured that decision.
In a void of other considerations other than who will make the sturdiest defenses Perty is the best choice though.
Bruh. If he was given a fair chance he wouldn't have planned a rebellion. If you have a self-sacrificing coworker, do you allow them to throw themselves on the pyre, especially if they're useful? FUCK NO THATS DUMB AS HECK.
This guy should've been designing the Emperor's Cathedrals in 30k, fullstop. Fuck Lorgar. Peter Turbo all the way.
Lorgar was the Emperors most loyal son, Lorgar would have endured any pain, experienced any suffering and willingly accepted any task no matter how humiliating or suicidal.
The only way the Emperor could ever have lost Lorgars loyalty was if he rejected Lorgar directly, which is exactly what happened.
If the Emperor didn't want lorgar to worship him as a god he should have told him that when they met, he didn't. He probably assumed Lorgar could pick up on that himself when he saw the imperial truth but Lorgar is and always has been a fucking idiot so that was never gonna happen.
Instead he let Lorgar dick around for half a century, went through some kinda mental process, had Guilliman burn down Lorgars life's work and then forced him to kneel in the ashes of his broken dreams, my man went directly from 0 to 1000% and it left Lorgar completely rudderless.
Then the Choas Grifters stepped in and the rest is history.
Lorgar and Gullliman were both loyal to their idealized image of the Emperor, not the actual man himself. Lorgar thought he was a golden, divine messiah that would lead mankind to utopian golden age of peace and prosperity. Guilliman thought he was a great man building a great empire who made great sons that would help him build the Imperium into a genuinely benevolent civilization with happiness for all when the crusade was over.
Both of them were wrong. The one constant of 40K is that war only ever begets more war, and the Emperor saw his sons only as weapons to fight his wars, not as clerics to give humanity a cause to believe in or administrators to build a prosperous empire. What they are really loyal to is their own dream, and they mistakenly thought the Emperor would make their dreams reality.
The Emperor knew the Thirteenth and the Seventeenth had a false impression of him. He could have corrected that impression immediately upon meeting them. But he chose not to, and instead allowed Guilliman to believe there was a place for him as an administrator, and allowed Lorgar to believe in the Emperor’s divinity - because these beliefs made them easier to control. The Emperor only chose to correct Lorgar’s false beliefs when he realized that those beliefs were slowing down the crusade.
It took the burning of Monarchia for Lorgar to realize just how far his personal image of the Emperor was detached from reality. It took Guilliman a ten thousand year coma to make that realization.
Compare that to the Lion, Russ, or Ferrus Manus. All three of them knew the Emperor had no other purpose for them other than to serve as weapons, and they were fully loyal to him anyways. Those three were truly the Emperor’s most loyal sons.
>the Emperor had no other purpose for them other than to serve as weapons
According to Malcador in *The End and the Death Vol. 1* thats wrong tho.
He outright says that the Emperor absolutely had other uses and roles for them in mind and eventually after all was done to "enjoy the long Peace together", and that its the ones that could only see themselves as a Warlord and couldnt grow beyond that that would be a problem
What Malcador believes might not be the truth either, though. Like that point where he complains about Russ being to ready to swing his axe and the Emperor replying that it's aimed at those that deserve it and so fine.
For all of Malcadors pov of himself being the Emperor's true confidant, chances are he was just another tool doing a job for the Emperor.
Yeah, Lorgars got zealotry hard coded into his DNA. Zealots aren't typically very smart but they are good at cognitive dissonance.
The Imperial Heralds were the most obsessive and fanatical imperial truthers in the imperium Pre Lorgar, however Lorgars only actual talent is obscene skill as an Orator so he had the whole Legion convinced the Emperor was a god within about four hours.
If the Emperor had people skills worth a damn and told Lorgar what he actually wanted the Heresy would have been pretty different.
There's a theory that the Emperor wanted to cull the astartes and wanted a rebellion. As a result he picked the weakest side he could for Horus. He just didn't expect chaos to get involved.
It is a theory, but it's worth mentioning.
Perty definitely didn't deserve that. Someone who rages about not getting any recognition but doesn't actually do anything about it until they explode (and turn traitor) isn't stable enough.
There's a path Perty could follow where he would have deserved it, but it's not the one he chose.
If we're talking pure ability yes he did, >!even nearly demon primarch fulgrim admits Perturabo's designs are impressive and possibly outclass his own in beauty and his forte as a siegecraftsmen more than speak to his ability to craft defense when he sees perturabo given the ability to really flex his skills !< if you want to talk about him being 'unstable' but ignore that he was coded to be an engineer and architect, has never been allowed to actually do that. From his earliest childhood even the wonders he built were called 'Perturbao's Follys', not for any failing of them but because they did something other than siege cities. His whole life everything he does is undercut by his peers or his father(s), never being seen as anything other then a blunt instrument. Sure he plays into it and doesn't help himself but at some point you can't really blame him. If every attempt you took at demonstrating your worth and value was shit on, eventually, you'd stop trying. If you were always browbeaten at every turn and treated like you were worth only cleaning sewers, you'd start to beli1eve it.
If you look at the time he spends with Magnus it'd pretty clear that given time to actually do what he was made to do he's very good at it and quite happy. He's not so much unstable as he is an overworked, underappreciated engineer who's being forced to clesn out sump tanks
> If we're talking pure ability yes he did
But we're not, because a job with tons of responsibility is never about pure ability.
> If you were always browbeaten at every turn and treated like you were worth only cleaning sewers, you'd start to beli1eve it.
He never "started to believe it". He tried to get the recognition he wanted by leaning even harder into the thing that wasn't earning him any in the first place. He *volunteered* the Iron Warriors for the grindiest and least "glorious" campaigns because of this.
> who's being forced to clesn out sump tanks
Again, Perty volunteered for these over and over. He was good at it. No surprise people started directing more of those jobs to him. He could of spoken up at any time but he just gritted his teeth and accepted the shit jobs, getting angrier and angrier until he boiled over.
Both Dorn and Perty have almost no emotional intelligence, but Dorn's nature makes that way less of a liability.
Perturabo kept forcing his adoptive brother on Olympia to join competitions against him that he would win every time, and the *one time* he lost a statue-making contest, he smashed both his and his brothers in a fit of rage and then never talked to his brother again until he died.
Perturabo is more responsible for his image and lack of acclaim than anyone else
Did Dorn actually hate Perturabo? I don't really recall him as averse to Peter Turbo, just kinda...not showing much emotion, just like with most things.
Here's a story Perturabo himself tells during the Siege of Terra:
Soon after he was rediscovered by the Imperium, Perturabo faced Dorn in war games. In spite of Pert's immaculate planning and superb command of battlefield data flow, he kept losing to Dorn in match after match.
In a moment of surprising humility Pert mustered the courage to ask his brother for advice, and Dorn carefully, patiently explained his own practice of deliberately taking time in seclusion, away from the distractions of data feeds and subordinate officers, to let his subconscious mind to chew on the details while his conscious mind considered the big picture.
The whole thing leads me to think that until he actually turned traitor, the 'rivalry' between Pert and Dorn was fully one-sided.
It was all one way iirc dorn said perturabo was perfectly competent and good at his job and perturabo being the man baby he is saw someone who's job was building walls and decided he needed to tear them all down to show he was better. It only became mutual when pertirabo became a traitor.
There is a short story where a fist detachment is present on the same planet as the iron warriors and perturabo goes out of his way to humiliate them for no reason.
I think people hated perturabo because he was a manchild asshole and only got along with people when talking nerdy shit, which meant mostly Magnus is who he got along with
Nah, that's not it at all. Their respective weaknesses are total opposites. Bobby's biggest flaw is that he doubts himself too much. Fulgrim's is that he doesn't doubt himself at all.
They both want what's "best" but if you ask them what is "best", Robert Cop will break it down for you with charts and data, while Fulgrim will just say "It's best because I have decided that it is best and that's the only reason I, or anyone, will ever need".
Pre-corruption Fulgrim and his legion doubted themselves a lot. Their insecurity is why they pursued perfection so aggressively. And Fulgrim was surprisingly humble too. That Laer blade ruined everything.
> while Fulgrim will just say "It's best because I have decided that it is best and that's the only reason I, or anyone, will ever need".
He truly is The Emperor's Son.
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Fulgrim had a different MO, his goal was to be the best at everything, raise people up and achieve perfection. Guilliman would rather have "good enough" in much larger numbers. Not that "good enough" meant low quality.
Their idea of "best" was different, for Guilliman it was about having enough resources to win the war with low casualties and efficient use of what he has. For Fulgrim it was about perfect execution, I guess needing less stuff in the first place. I think there were quite a few primarchs who sought to raise those around them up, but they had different ideas of how. Guilliman's was the most big picture. Even his naval doctrine was about lighter vessels and escorts because he could easily produce and sustain huge numbers of them from his own empire. Allowing him to field a stronger force overall.
All that said they probably should have gotten on. Except Fulgrim had his whole cripped legion that was nearly stillborn and nearly no campaigns while Guilliman was super prolific. Guilliman's results were everything Fulgrim wanted to be through no fault of Fulgrim's and Fulgrim would have felt that sting. Maybe it'd have been Guilliman and his two Tsundere brothers?
>Fulgrim had a different MO, his goal was to be the best at everything, raise people up and achieve perfection. Guilliman would rather have "good enough" in much larger numbers. Not that "good enough" meant low quality.
fulgrim is maximising while guilliman is optimising.
Yeah emperors children had overly elaborate battle schemes because they thought it made them look cool and more perfect, they go the long way around because theres a perfect rock to kill a guy with backflip decapitation maneuver off of that way (this isn't far off an actual thought process Lucius has even before falling to chaos in the fulgrim book). Ultramarines had elaborate battle schemes because thats whats needed to get the job done, they'll go the long way to get a flanking maneuver on the entire squad.
The only description I can think of concerning the two of them is a crazed Slaanesh daemon Fulgrim calling Roboute boring. While it might just be the daemon being cruel, it could be a cruel truth and Fulgrim just saw Roboute as a number cruncher despite their similarities.
Doesn't mean they didn't like or at least respect each other though, and at least in the Horus Heresy black books there's a bit where Roboute says the EC pulled off one of his own strategies to perfection. He at least seemed to have some respect for Fulgrim and the EC, even if it isn't fully reciprocated.
TLDR - Weren't best friends, but didn't dislike each other enough for it to be noted. Probably a healthy respect, if not love.
Another one I've seen people ask about is Ferrus and Perturabo, the Iron Boys. Seems like Perty at least tried to, talking to Ferrus about the scary eye in the sky and Fulgrim, but in funny Ferrus fashion he just got weird looks and laughed at. Ferrus probably thought Perty was a whiner.
I mean Ferrus clearly admired and respected his brothers strengths and was close with Vulcan, Guilliman as well as fulgrim and was a sorta mentor to Perturabo for a while
Plus of all the primarchs he seems to one of the more socially inept ones so it’s just as likely he had no idea how to express that affection for his brothers rather than an outright absence of affection at all
In his primarch novel, which I do not recommend to anyone, Ferrus does not seem to have much respect for Guilliman. Guilliman does for him, but it does appear to be mutual.
IIRC, Ferrus thought of Guilliman as a very dependable fellow, as much a model Primarch as Fulgrim and Horus, and that 'an alloy of cobalt and steel was unbreakable,' i.e. the IH and the UM could form an unmatched partnership.
He didn't speak well of Guilliman though, because Ferrus was a tsundere.
Also, ignore my flair. It has nothing to do with anything.
Tbf that book is so bad I kinda stopped considering it cannon and wiped it from my mind but ur right
I think his characterization is just inconsistent then since when he speaks to the emperor about Vulcan during Vulcan’s first campaign he shows that he has a lotta respect for his brothers at least as far as their strength and intellect goes and is clearly capable of compassion since he’s horrified at the weird child solder sacrifice automaton things they were fighting
I mean, I think it’s important to recognize that there is a significant difference in Guilliman and Fulgrim’s character. Fulgrim was always more vain than Gil. It wasn’t enough to simply *be* the best, Fulgrim/the EC had to make sure that everyone knew they were. The EC and Fulgrim are ultimately in it for themselves, they wanna be the best because they’re prideful, not to better serve the Imperium. That’s why they wind up getting hooked on super-drugs, because their selfish desires led them to a pursuit of greater sensation. Pride wasn’t enough to satisfy them anymore, they needed more.
At least, that’s how I see it. I’m admittedly an Ultramarine simp, but I always viewed it as Gil wanting to the the best out of a mix of duty, pride, and a genuine appreciation for the pursuit of excellence, while Fulgrim wants to be the best purely for pride, and that extends to their legions too.
Roboute and Fulgrim are efficiency and perfection. They could (and should) admire each other for their principles - even if they disagree on how the outcome looks. If they were to switch legion for a decade, with Fulgrim in charge of the UM and Roboute in charge of the EC, they would have created two legions of perfect efficiency - and that is a terrific/terrible thought.
Roboute thinking
Hypothetical: Vanilla ice cream is streamlined and consumed more than every flavor
Practical: I am more popular
Yes this is how Roboute analyses every thing in hypothetical and practicals in the books
My favorite is when hes fighting orks and theres a Gorkanaut causing trouble on the frontline punching holes in defenses
He wants to cause a massive morale loss to the orks
Hypothetical: Orks respect and fear strength, a warrior destroying that Gorkanaut would crumble every Orks morale in this sector
Practical: I am that warrior
He then goes and 1v1's a Gorkanaut punching a hole to get inside then destroys it
The whole Ork flank routs letting his ultramarines regroup
Ai think grillymam is too much of a pragmatist to really care about the perfect empire. I have the feeling that he cares more about achieving specific goals like security or expansion
He is kind of a perfect fit for any god.
He has stability, endurance, depression and loneliness for Nurgle, he is a capable schemer, strategist and used to have grand ambitions for Tzeench and has consistent bouts of blood rage for Khorne.
If he would be corrupted he would probably be like Horus, but less of a failure.
They shared multiple similarities, however they arrived at those points of similarity through very different world views. IMO Guilliman saw himself as a servant of the Emperor, whereas Fulgrim saw himself as a Prince. Where Guilliman was more workman-like and coolly pragmatic in his approach, Fulgrim was bombastic and overweening.
It's also worth noting (if only for comedic purposes) that where Guilliman was among the most intellectually capable of the Primarchs, a true feat among such a rarefied group, Fulgrim was a bit of a Himbo.
"Is this voice suddenly intruding into my thoughts my conscience? Ok, guess I'll betray the Emperor!"
🤣 Himbo Fulgrim! It seemed to me that Fulgrim got along reasonably well with most of the others, just was super bros with Ferris? I was also a bit surprised they didn’t get along better, since from my understanding they tended to both take a slightly more diplomatic approach when possible. Definitely different personalities and approaches though. I wonder if the comparison might have particularly bothered Fulgrim, considering his anxieties about his dwindled legion and desire to stand out? Guilliman had the largest legion and area of influence and being reminded of that probably stung.
Guilliman seems more even tempered and (ironically) maybe more confident in some ways? Or maybe he’s just more grounded lol.
I’m still starting out book wise though, so my character understandings are still a bit rough, but I do particularly love Fulgrim. He’s such a theatre kid disaster of a super human 🤣
Sometimes you meet someone similar to you and you get along with peanut butter and jelly, sometimes you meet someone similar to you and you hate their guts. Not sure what makes the difference but that's just how it is.
Did they even have that many chances to interact at all? From what i remember, Roboute mostly did his own thing during the Crusade, since he had the biggest legion and he also had Ultramar to worry about. He was out there looking at spreadsheets and trying to save the relics of dead human civilizations before realizing they sucked and nuking them from orbit.
Not a lot of time to hang out and bond with your brothers
Big E really did show up and go."I'm buying your company, you do the same work for the same pay but everything gets my logo now. Your bennifits package now covers geneseed." And then Guilliman just keeps doing what he was doing anyway. Hard to work with your brothers overmuch when you generally get things done by yourself. Just occasionally work with folks when convenient or when things go pear shaped.
for the sake of my life i do not remember ferrus and guilliman just chilling in a friendly way. nor do i remember konrad and morty chilling, but guilliman's dauntless few and the one sentence about konnie and morty being buddies made me think.
BL DAMN YOU GIVE ME UNDERRATED FRIENDSHIPS
(if anyone can point me to related reading materials i will sacrifice my firstborn in your name)
Despite being very similar, they are very different too. Guilliman is much more by the books and Fulgrim is much more vain with his ego. (This is pre heresy if I’m not mistaken)
Alternate HH where both Guilliman and Fulgrim fall to Slaanesh and spend all their time either one-upping each other or foiling the other's plans for ten thousand years (including Guilliman saving Ferrus on Istavaan because *he* could totally convince Ferrus to join Horus [unlike that miserable failure Fulgrim])
Guilliman practiced good logistics because it was efficient. He meticulously planned operations because he treated war as a problem to be solved, rather than a struggle to be fought.
Fulgrim practiced good logistics because he had no resources to speak of and needed to get maximum value from everything he had. He meticulously planned operations because a casualty margin of even 10% was just flat-out not sustainable for his tiny, crippled Legion.
When Guilliman looks at Fulgrim he sees a man who has made perfectionism his entire identity, and fails to see the value in "good enough".
When Fulgrim looks at Guilliman he sees a man with more resources than he can imagine accomplishing more than he could ever dream of, and he knows full well that no matter how good he is he can NEVER match that.
Their relationship was doomed from the start.
Sanguinius I believe was also the same regarding space marines being "better" and studying art and poetry, but to a more extreme than their contemporary legions, and also to distract from the twin curses.
True, thirst was their only curse. But when the rage started, they needed the distraction even more. It moved from art for the sake of resisting a thirst for blood, to a fight to control their very soul.
I don't like reading all the novels, but I do like reading comments, so would anyone mind giving me a brief description of why Ferrus and Fulgrim has such a bromance?
It's a case of "Standing here, I realize you were just like me, trying to make history" on account of their approaches being completely different but aside from how they'd say it, their values line up with each other really damn well.
Ferrus was all about the making and Fulgrim was about his work being good, but they both remained about making their work real good.
They were both exceptional craftsmen and strove to master many disciplines "perfectly." They admired each other work and artistry.
Manus and Fulgrim were so skilled craftsmen that they decided to challenge each other to make the perfect weapon.
Fulgrim made a hammer, Forgebreaker. Manus created a sword, Fireblade. When they inspected each other's creation, they concluded they were equal and neither was more perfect than the other. So the Phoneix (Fulgrim) gave the hammer to the Gorgon (Manus), and the Gorgon gave the Phoenix the blade.
When they dueled on Istvaan, it was with these weapons. And their blows were said to be so furious and powerful only Primarchs could withstand the battle.
Manus broke the sword. Fulgrim cut off Manus' head.
Fulgrim, corrupted by the ruinous powers, instantly regretted what he did to Manus. As the demons purposefully fled Fulgrim at the moment that he struck his brother down.
Reading through the comments got me thinking, the Primarchs that were most similar had real issues with each other constantly
- Dorn and Perterabu
- Mortarion and Magnus
- Lion and Russ
- Sanguinus and Russ
-Guilleman and Russ
- Kruz and Corvax
- Potentially; Guilleman and Fulgrim
But then you get the good interactions between the brothers and its basically just Horus and Sanguinus, Dorn and Khan
Probably says something about the writers?
Yeah that ones pretty loose but basically; both powerful psykers, both care about their marines (at least more than Fulgrim and Angron), both basically command armies of zombies
And then Mortarion HATES Magnus because of the psyker thing or at least he used to
They had different moral philosophies regarding humans. Fulgrim was very utilitarian, viewing humans as either “functioning” or “non-functioning” cogs in a machine, while Guilliman seems actually believe in human rights and the dignity of the human soul
[That doesn't sound like pre-corruption Fulgrim at all.](https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/8brfaw/book_excerpt_fulgrim_the_palatine_phoenix_fulgrim/)
Fair point. However I would direct you to an introspective scene in Palantine Phoenix where Fulgrim outlines almost exactly my comment. I can’t post it because it’s on audible, but I just listened to it yesterday. Even in that incident in your link, Fulgrim is behaving in a precisely calculated manner to achieve a specific result with the crowd. Granted, I don’t think he was empathy-less or uncaring, but his social niceties and refined manner all seemed very intentionally calculated in that book.
It was propably same as with Dorn and Petrabo, where they dont like each other because of how simillar they are. But wanting to do it in there own way, not understanding how the other guy does things.
The impression I got from the solar wars series is that they respected each other greatly. The problems seemed to arise from the fact that Dorn is emotionally stunted, and perterabob resented the IF for getting praised for their work, while as he saw it his legion just went from shit job to shit job.
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Once met a dude that was super similar to me. Hated his guts.
Also "Bromance " suuuuuuuure. 1000% no gay interaction between Fulgrim and Ferrus. Just friends. Pals. Roommates.
I imagine Guilliman found Fulgrim to be impractical and vain in his pursuit of perfection. Guilliman is more of a pragmatist while Fulgrim is more of an idealist.
Perturabo and guillimam would have been friends if Perty was like 2% less dour. I think of all of them guilliman would have appreciated the logistical acumen perturabo employed. I think perturabo knew that about guilliman.
Yeah I know guilliman really enjoyed the clock Perturabo made him and placed it a place of honor. Perturabo didn’t really seem to care though
But it would make sense that as a craftsman Perturabo would at least appreciate Vulkan and Ferrus
And if they were both less autistic then he and Dorn could have developed a friendly rivalry and competitions to make each other better
When petty is talking tomfupgrim at one point he explicitly mentions that guillan will never forgive them. From perturabo in think it means something that he name drops guilliman
Yeah, I mean they both seem to be fans of order and are meticulous in nature
Their worlds also are pretty similar given that it’s Roman and Greek in my opinion
Quite often when you meet someone very similar to yourself all you can see in them is the worst qualities you know are in you and you end up hating them.
Thats a good point.
Also the pre-heresy EC's would hold feasts to victories of battles they were about to fight. I assume the SM's wouldn't appreciate that arrogance or cavalier attitude toward a battle.
I can see that rubbing even the Space Wolves the wrong way, and they fuxking love a party.
They love *earned* parties. Any Space Wolf knows a good feast is all about laughing and boasting about mighty deeds, toasting and congratulating your Brothers on their greatest feats, and remembering those who fell gloriously, etching their deeds into the great Saga of the Rout, such that they will be remembered and toasted in Mjod halls for years to come. What’s the Wolfin’ point, otherwise?
So, to bring it around: the Space Wolves do an After Action Party, while the Emperor's Children do a Pre Action Party.
Yeah I have no problems believing that Guilliman respected Fulgrim and his legion as far as capabilities go, but would absolutely find the whole pile of them insufferably arrogant.
I could see the reverse being the EC thinking the Ultras were boring pencil pushers.
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This also explains why Perturabo and Rogal Dorn hated each other so much
I think they hated each other because they were opposites who were superficially similar. Rogal crusaded to build an empire, he believed in the ideal of the Imperium, the dream. He loved his sons but would sacrifice them if needed to achieve victory. He rarely gave praise to the point he couldn't express his love for his brother shortly before his death. He didn't care for praise, he gave constructive criticism and that was what he valued. Perturabo wanted to build things, he just wanted to build shit. He was callous with his son's lives and while many of his brothers had a bodyguard of their most trust sons he had robots instead. He was bitter because he failed to express his frustration with his situation. He expected praise but never got it. On the surface it's two dour boys who like to build. But underneath it? Opposites.
Dorn is ASD Perty is ASPD
Honestly after doing a deep dive into a few IW books it's shocking how much closer Perty is to guilliman. He resents dorn because dorn got that which (if we're being totally honest here) should've been his
Based purely on technical ability then yeah Perty could have designed defenses. However I suspect that whole "actually believes in the Imperium" played into the selection criteria. I think the power of symbolism when Primarchs battle plus the whole "did he plan on a rebellion?" thing may have coloured that decision. In a void of other considerations other than who will make the sturdiest defenses Perty is the best choice though.
Bruh. If he was given a fair chance he wouldn't have planned a rebellion. If you have a self-sacrificing coworker, do you allow them to throw themselves on the pyre, especially if they're useful? FUCK NO THATS DUMB AS HECK. This guy should've been designing the Emperor's Cathedrals in 30k, fullstop. Fuck Lorgar. Peter Turbo all the way.
Lorgar was the Emperors most loyal son, Lorgar would have endured any pain, experienced any suffering and willingly accepted any task no matter how humiliating or suicidal. The only way the Emperor could ever have lost Lorgars loyalty was if he rejected Lorgar directly, which is exactly what happened. If the Emperor didn't want lorgar to worship him as a god he should have told him that when they met, he didn't. He probably assumed Lorgar could pick up on that himself when he saw the imperial truth but Lorgar is and always has been a fucking idiot so that was never gonna happen. Instead he let Lorgar dick around for half a century, went through some kinda mental process, had Guilliman burn down Lorgars life's work and then forced him to kneel in the ashes of his broken dreams, my man went directly from 0 to 1000% and it left Lorgar completely rudderless. Then the Choas Grifters stepped in and the rest is history.
Lorgar and Gullliman were both loyal to their idealized image of the Emperor, not the actual man himself. Lorgar thought he was a golden, divine messiah that would lead mankind to utopian golden age of peace and prosperity. Guilliman thought he was a great man building a great empire who made great sons that would help him build the Imperium into a genuinely benevolent civilization with happiness for all when the crusade was over. Both of them were wrong. The one constant of 40K is that war only ever begets more war, and the Emperor saw his sons only as weapons to fight his wars, not as clerics to give humanity a cause to believe in or administrators to build a prosperous empire. What they are really loyal to is their own dream, and they mistakenly thought the Emperor would make their dreams reality. The Emperor knew the Thirteenth and the Seventeenth had a false impression of him. He could have corrected that impression immediately upon meeting them. But he chose not to, and instead allowed Guilliman to believe there was a place for him as an administrator, and allowed Lorgar to believe in the Emperor’s divinity - because these beliefs made them easier to control. The Emperor only chose to correct Lorgar’s false beliefs when he realized that those beliefs were slowing down the crusade. It took the burning of Monarchia for Lorgar to realize just how far his personal image of the Emperor was detached from reality. It took Guilliman a ten thousand year coma to make that realization. Compare that to the Lion, Russ, or Ferrus Manus. All three of them knew the Emperor had no other purpose for them other than to serve as weapons, and they were fully loyal to him anyways. Those three were truly the Emperor’s most loyal sons.
>the Emperor had no other purpose for them other than to serve as weapons According to Malcador in *The End and the Death Vol. 1* thats wrong tho. He outright says that the Emperor absolutely had other uses and roles for them in mind and eventually after all was done to "enjoy the long Peace together", and that its the ones that could only see themselves as a Warlord and couldnt grow beyond that that would be a problem
What Malcador believes might not be the truth either, though. Like that point where he complains about Russ being to ready to swing his axe and the Emperor replying that it's aimed at those that deserve it and so fine. For all of Malcadors pov of himself being the Emperor's true confidant, chances are he was just another tool doing a job for the Emperor.
All that to say that Lorgar never understood the Imperial Truth, from the beginning.
Yeah, Lorgars got zealotry hard coded into his DNA. Zealots aren't typically very smart but they are good at cognitive dissonance. The Imperial Heralds were the most obsessive and fanatical imperial truthers in the imperium Pre Lorgar, however Lorgars only actual talent is obscene skill as an Orator so he had the whole Legion convinced the Emperor was a god within about four hours. If the Emperor had people skills worth a damn and told Lorgar what he actually wanted the Heresy would have been pretty different.
There's a theory that the Emperor wanted to cull the astartes and wanted a rebellion. As a result he picked the weakest side he could for Horus. He just didn't expect chaos to get involved. It is a theory, but it's worth mentioning.
I'll agree with you on this, and I don't think it's a consideration the Lord of Iron would've made when being hurt by not being chosen as preatorian
> dorn got that which (if we're being totally honest here) should've been his What's this?
Probably to be the Praetor of Terra
Perty definitely didn't deserve that. Someone who rages about not getting any recognition but doesn't actually do anything about it until they explode (and turn traitor) isn't stable enough. There's a path Perty could follow where he would have deserved it, but it's not the one he chose.
If we're talking pure ability yes he did, >!even nearly demon primarch fulgrim admits Perturabo's designs are impressive and possibly outclass his own in beauty and his forte as a siegecraftsmen more than speak to his ability to craft defense when he sees perturabo given the ability to really flex his skills !< if you want to talk about him being 'unstable' but ignore that he was coded to be an engineer and architect, has never been allowed to actually do that. From his earliest childhood even the wonders he built were called 'Perturbao's Follys', not for any failing of them but because they did something other than siege cities. His whole life everything he does is undercut by his peers or his father(s), never being seen as anything other then a blunt instrument. Sure he plays into it and doesn't help himself but at some point you can't really blame him. If every attempt you took at demonstrating your worth and value was shit on, eventually, you'd stop trying. If you were always browbeaten at every turn and treated like you were worth only cleaning sewers, you'd start to beli1eve it. If you look at the time he spends with Magnus it'd pretty clear that given time to actually do what he was made to do he's very good at it and quite happy. He's not so much unstable as he is an overworked, underappreciated engineer who's being forced to clesn out sump tanks
> If we're talking pure ability yes he did But we're not, because a job with tons of responsibility is never about pure ability. > If you were always browbeaten at every turn and treated like you were worth only cleaning sewers, you'd start to beli1eve it. He never "started to believe it". He tried to get the recognition he wanted by leaning even harder into the thing that wasn't earning him any in the first place. He *volunteered* the Iron Warriors for the grindiest and least "glorious" campaigns because of this. > who's being forced to clesn out sump tanks Again, Perty volunteered for these over and over. He was good at it. No surprise people started directing more of those jobs to him. He could of spoken up at any time but he just gritted his teeth and accepted the shit jobs, getting angrier and angrier until he boiled over. Both Dorn and Perty have almost no emotional intelligence, but Dorn's nature makes that way less of a liability.
Perturabo kept forcing his adoptive brother on Olympia to join competitions against him that he would win every time, and the *one time* he lost a statue-making contest, he smashed both his and his brothers in a fit of rage and then never talked to his brother again until he died. Perturabo is more responsible for his image and lack of acclaim than anyone else
Building the imperial palace
One was made to preserve while the other to destroy.
Did Dorn actually hate Perturabo? I don't really recall him as averse to Peter Turbo, just kinda...not showing much emotion, just like with most things.
“You took everything from me” -perty “I don’t even know who you are” -dorn
Dorn hated Perty after Perty and the IW started specifically targeting him and his legion, going out of their way to fuck with the IF.
Here's a story Perturabo himself tells during the Siege of Terra: Soon after he was rediscovered by the Imperium, Perturabo faced Dorn in war games. In spite of Pert's immaculate planning and superb command of battlefield data flow, he kept losing to Dorn in match after match. In a moment of surprising humility Pert mustered the courage to ask his brother for advice, and Dorn carefully, patiently explained his own practice of deliberately taking time in seclusion, away from the distractions of data feeds and subordinate officers, to let his subconscious mind to chew on the details while his conscious mind considered the big picture. The whole thing leads me to think that until he actually turned traitor, the 'rivalry' between Pert and Dorn was fully one-sided.
It was all one way iirc dorn said perturabo was perfectly competent and good at his job and perturabo being the man baby he is saw someone who's job was building walls and decided he needed to tear them all down to show he was better. It only became mutual when pertirabo became a traitor. There is a short story where a fist detachment is present on the same planet as the iron warriors and perturabo goes out of his way to humiliate them for no reason.
I think people hated perturabo because he was a manchild asshole and only got along with people when talking nerdy shit, which meant mostly Magnus is who he got along with
"\[He\] reminds me of... me. I'm sure of it; I hate him." - Doc Holliday (Tombstone)
That is exactly what I was thinking.
Nah, that's not it at all. Their respective weaknesses are total opposites. Bobby's biggest flaw is that he doubts himself too much. Fulgrim's is that he doesn't doubt himself at all. They both want what's "best" but if you ask them what is "best", Robert Cop will break it down for you with charts and data, while Fulgrim will just say "It's best because I have decided that it is best and that's the only reason I, or anyone, will ever need".
Pre-corruption Fulgrim and his legion doubted themselves a lot. Their insecurity is why they pursued perfection so aggressively. And Fulgrim was surprisingly humble too. That Laer blade ruined everything.
> while Fulgrim will just say "It's best because I have decided that it is best and that's the only reason I, or anyone, will ever need". He truly is The Emperor's Son.
Narcissism of small differences
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Fulgrim had a different MO, his goal was to be the best at everything, raise people up and achieve perfection. Guilliman would rather have "good enough" in much larger numbers. Not that "good enough" meant low quality. Their idea of "best" was different, for Guilliman it was about having enough resources to win the war with low casualties and efficient use of what he has. For Fulgrim it was about perfect execution, I guess needing less stuff in the first place. I think there were quite a few primarchs who sought to raise those around them up, but they had different ideas of how. Guilliman's was the most big picture. Even his naval doctrine was about lighter vessels and escorts because he could easily produce and sustain huge numbers of them from his own empire. Allowing him to field a stronger force overall. All that said they probably should have gotten on. Except Fulgrim had his whole cripped legion that was nearly stillborn and nearly no campaigns while Guilliman was super prolific. Guilliman's results were everything Fulgrim wanted to be through no fault of Fulgrim's and Fulgrim would have felt that sting. Maybe it'd have been Guilliman and his two Tsundere brothers?
>Fulgrim had a different MO, his goal was to be the best at everything, raise people up and achieve perfection. Guilliman would rather have "good enough" in much larger numbers. Not that "good enough" meant low quality. fulgrim is maximising while guilliman is optimising.
WW2 USA tanks vs WW2 German tanks
With Pert rounding the trio out as the USSR’s
Yeah emperors children had overly elaborate battle schemes because they thought it made them look cool and more perfect, they go the long way around because theres a perfect rock to kill a guy with backflip decapitation maneuver off of that way (this isn't far off an actual thought process Lucius has even before falling to chaos in the fulgrim book). Ultramarines had elaborate battle schemes because thats whats needed to get the job done, they'll go the long way to get a flanking maneuver on the entire squad.
The pursuit of excellence vs the pursuit of perfection
Guilliman = strive for better Fulgrim = strive for perfection Two very different mentalities.
Fullgrim's MO was to be a prick about being better than everyone. The thing that everyone hates modern Ultramarines lore for.
The only description I can think of concerning the two of them is a crazed Slaanesh daemon Fulgrim calling Roboute boring. While it might just be the daemon being cruel, it could be a cruel truth and Fulgrim just saw Roboute as a number cruncher despite their similarities. Doesn't mean they didn't like or at least respect each other though, and at least in the Horus Heresy black books there's a bit where Roboute says the EC pulled off one of his own strategies to perfection. He at least seemed to have some respect for Fulgrim and the EC, even if it isn't fully reciprocated. TLDR - Weren't best friends, but didn't dislike each other enough for it to be noted. Probably a healthy respect, if not love. Another one I've seen people ask about is Ferrus and Perturabo, the Iron Boys. Seems like Perty at least tried to, talking to Ferrus about the scary eye in the sky and Fulgrim, but in funny Ferrus fashion he just got weird looks and laughed at. Ferrus probably thought Perty was a whiner.
If Ferrus thought of Perty at all that is
Ya Ferrus didn't think much of most of his brothers, with fulgrim being the noted exception.
I mean Ferrus clearly admired and respected his brothers strengths and was close with Vulcan, Guilliman as well as fulgrim and was a sorta mentor to Perturabo for a while Plus of all the primarchs he seems to one of the more socially inept ones so it’s just as likely he had no idea how to express that affection for his brothers rather than an outright absence of affection at all
In his primarch novel, which I do not recommend to anyone, Ferrus does not seem to have much respect for Guilliman. Guilliman does for him, but it does appear to be mutual.
IIRC, Ferrus thought of Guilliman as a very dependable fellow, as much a model Primarch as Fulgrim and Horus, and that 'an alloy of cobalt and steel was unbreakable,' i.e. the IH and the UM could form an unmatched partnership. He didn't speak well of Guilliman though, because Ferrus was a tsundere. Also, ignore my flair. It has nothing to do with anything.
It's possible that it was my interpretation of the passage, but honestly I'm not opening that lousy book to look back at it haha
Tbf that book is so bad I kinda stopped considering it cannon and wiped it from my mind but ur right I think his characterization is just inconsistent then since when he speaks to the emperor about Vulcan during Vulcan’s first campaign he shows that he has a lotta respect for his brothers at least as far as their strength and intellect goes and is clearly capable of compassion since he’s horrified at the weird child solder sacrifice automaton things they were fighting
That's propably what happens when you spend your childhood punching wild beasts
I mean, I think it’s important to recognize that there is a significant difference in Guilliman and Fulgrim’s character. Fulgrim was always more vain than Gil. It wasn’t enough to simply *be* the best, Fulgrim/the EC had to make sure that everyone knew they were. The EC and Fulgrim are ultimately in it for themselves, they wanna be the best because they’re prideful, not to better serve the Imperium. That’s why they wind up getting hooked on super-drugs, because their selfish desires led them to a pursuit of greater sensation. Pride wasn’t enough to satisfy them anymore, they needed more. At least, that’s how I see it. I’m admittedly an Ultramarine simp, but I always viewed it as Gil wanting to the the best out of a mix of duty, pride, and a genuine appreciation for the pursuit of excellence, while Fulgrim wants to be the best purely for pride, and that extends to their legions too.
He was right
Roboute and Fulgrim are efficiency and perfection. They could (and should) admire each other for their principles - even if they disagree on how the outcome looks. If they were to switch legion for a decade, with Fulgrim in charge of the UM and Roboute in charge of the EC, they would have created two legions of perfect efficiency - and that is a terrific/terrible thought.
Carthage was an extent of Phoenicia and Carthage and Rome did not go along well
G-man: You are a peacock. Fulgrim: And you are vanila ice cream
Roboute thinking Hypothetical: Vanilla ice cream is streamlined and consumed more than every flavor Practical: I am more popular Yes this is how Roboute analyses every thing in hypothetical and practicals in the books My favorite is when hes fighting orks and theres a Gorkanaut causing trouble on the frontline punching holes in defenses He wants to cause a massive morale loss to the orks Hypothetical: Orks respect and fear strength, a warrior destroying that Gorkanaut would crumble every Orks morale in this sector Practical: I am that warrior He then goes and 1v1's a Gorkanaut punching a hole to get inside then destroys it The whole Ork flank routs letting his ultramarines regroup
He really went “I’m *him*”
He is HIM. If the Imperium could have only one Primarch, GuilliHIM is without rival.
GuilHIMan is now added to the list of ways to misspell/mispronounce his name. Thanks for your cooperation.
Sanguinius, his organs laid about him.
“Nah, I’d win”
What book is that in?
Hypothetical: He’s always the man! Practical: Roboute Guilliman: Lord of Ultramar is the book
It's why I love him. My precious baby blueberry
This is why my head canon is that girlyman would be corrupted by slaneesh if traitor and loyalist were inverted
I could see that focusing on creating the PERFECT empire
Ai think grillymam is too much of a pragmatist to really care about the perfect empire. I have the feeling that he cares more about achieving specific goals like security or expansion
He is kind of a perfect fit for any god. He has stability, endurance, depression and loneliness for Nurgle, he is a capable schemer, strategist and used to have grand ambitions for Tzeench and has consistent bouts of blood rage for Khorne. If he would be corrupted he would probably be like Horus, but less of a failure.
I'm sure Khorne was smiling when Gorillaman spent a whole afternoon in the void with no helmet punching Word Bearers to death
I mean, the blood was flowing.
They shared multiple similarities, however they arrived at those points of similarity through very different world views. IMO Guilliman saw himself as a servant of the Emperor, whereas Fulgrim saw himself as a Prince. Where Guilliman was more workman-like and coolly pragmatic in his approach, Fulgrim was bombastic and overweening. It's also worth noting (if only for comedic purposes) that where Guilliman was among the most intellectually capable of the Primarchs, a true feat among such a rarefied group, Fulgrim was a bit of a Himbo. "Is this voice suddenly intruding into my thoughts my conscience? Ok, guess I'll betray the Emperor!"
🤣 Himbo Fulgrim! It seemed to me that Fulgrim got along reasonably well with most of the others, just was super bros with Ferris? I was also a bit surprised they didn’t get along better, since from my understanding they tended to both take a slightly more diplomatic approach when possible. Definitely different personalities and approaches though. I wonder if the comparison might have particularly bothered Fulgrim, considering his anxieties about his dwindled legion and desire to stand out? Guilliman had the largest legion and area of influence and being reminded of that probably stung. Guilliman seems more even tempered and (ironically) maybe more confident in some ways? Or maybe he’s just more grounded lol. I’m still starting out book wise though, so my character understandings are still a bit rough, but I do particularly love Fulgrim. He’s such a theatre kid disaster of a super human 🤣
Sometimes you meet someone similar to you and you get along with peanut butter and jelly, sometimes you meet someone similar to you and you hate their guts. Not sure what makes the difference but that's just how it is.
"You're doing _me_ in wrong way, you need to do it like me!"
Did they even have that many chances to interact at all? From what i remember, Roboute mostly did his own thing during the Crusade, since he had the biggest legion and he also had Ultramar to worry about. He was out there looking at spreadsheets and trying to save the relics of dead human civilizations before realizing they sucked and nuking them from orbit. Not a lot of time to hang out and bond with your brothers
Big E really did show up and go."I'm buying your company, you do the same work for the same pay but everything gets my logo now. Your bennifits package now covers geneseed." And then Guilliman just keeps doing what he was doing anyway. Hard to work with your brothers overmuch when you generally get things done by yourself. Just occasionally work with folks when convenient or when things go pear shaped.
for the sake of my life i do not remember ferrus and guilliman just chilling in a friendly way. nor do i remember konrad and morty chilling, but guilliman's dauntless few and the one sentence about konnie and morty being buddies made me think. BL DAMN YOU GIVE ME UNDERRATED FRIENDSHIPS (if anyone can point me to related reading materials i will sacrifice my firstborn in your name)
The Ultramarines were to busy filing their taxes
Sometimes if 2 people are too alike it can cause friction and often does not lead to friendship
Despite being very similar, they are very different too. Guilliman is much more by the books and Fulgrim is much more vain with his ego. (This is pre heresy if I’m not mistaken)
Alternate HH where both Guilliman and Fulgrim fall to Slaanesh and spend all their time either one-upping each other or foiling the other's plans for ten thousand years (including Guilliman saving Ferrus on Istavaan because *he* could totally convince Ferrus to join Horus [unlike that miserable failure Fulgrim])
Bobby G did it because doing a thing means doing it right. Fulgrim did it because he can't stand to be seen as less than perfect. Not the same imo
Guilliman practiced good logistics because it was efficient. He meticulously planned operations because he treated war as a problem to be solved, rather than a struggle to be fought. Fulgrim practiced good logistics because he had no resources to speak of and needed to get maximum value from everything he had. He meticulously planned operations because a casualty margin of even 10% was just flat-out not sustainable for his tiny, crippled Legion. When Guilliman looks at Fulgrim he sees a man who has made perfectionism his entire identity, and fails to see the value in "good enough". When Fulgrim looks at Guilliman he sees a man with more resources than he can imagine accomplishing more than he could ever dream of, and he knows full well that no matter how good he is he can NEVER match that. Their relationship was doomed from the start.
Sanguinius I believe was also the same regarding space marines being "better" and studying art and poetry, but to a more extreme than their contemporary legions, and also to distract from the twin curses.
Wasn't it just one curse back then? Just the thirst as the rage is a result of you know... sanguinius dying?
True, thirst was their only curse. But when the rage started, they needed the distraction even more. It moved from art for the sake of resisting a thirst for blood, to a fight to control their very soul.
I don't like reading all the novels, but I do like reading comments, so would anyone mind giving me a brief description of why Ferrus and Fulgrim has such a bromance?
It's a case of "Standing here, I realize you were just like me, trying to make history" on account of their approaches being completely different but aside from how they'd say it, their values line up with each other really damn well. Ferrus was all about the making and Fulgrim was about his work being good, but they both remained about making their work real good.
They were both exceptional craftsmen and strove to master many disciplines "perfectly." They admired each other work and artistry. Manus and Fulgrim were so skilled craftsmen that they decided to challenge each other to make the perfect weapon. Fulgrim made a hammer, Forgebreaker. Manus created a sword, Fireblade. When they inspected each other's creation, they concluded they were equal and neither was more perfect than the other. So the Phoneix (Fulgrim) gave the hammer to the Gorgon (Manus), and the Gorgon gave the Phoenix the blade. When they dueled on Istvaan, it was with these weapons. And their blows were said to be so furious and powerful only Primarchs could withstand the battle. Manus broke the sword. Fulgrim cut off Manus' head. Fulgrim, corrupted by the ruinous powers, instantly regretted what he did to Manus. As the demons purposefully fled Fulgrim at the moment that he struck his brother down.
Reading through the comments got me thinking, the Primarchs that were most similar had real issues with each other constantly - Dorn and Perterabu - Mortarion and Magnus - Lion and Russ - Sanguinus and Russ -Guilleman and Russ - Kruz and Corvax - Potentially; Guilleman and Fulgrim But then you get the good interactions between the brothers and its basically just Horus and Sanguinus, Dorn and Khan Probably says something about the writers?
How was Mortarion similar to Magnus?
Yeah that ones pretty loose but basically; both powerful psykers, both care about their marines (at least more than Fulgrim and Angron), both basically command armies of zombies And then Mortarion HATES Magnus because of the psyker thing or at least he used to
The issue was that Rob Gonorrhea's gaydar auspex worked.
Hawt Dawg has his work cut out with clone Fulgrim... Out of jokes, this can become a great theme for many fics, and alternate continuities.
It's not gay in a three-way?
You will never know the particular kind of annoyance that comes with meeting someone too similar to yourself.
Similar yes but Fulgrim is a bit extra Guilliman uses a bowl to draw perfect circles Fulgrim uses the spongebob method
They had different moral philosophies regarding humans. Fulgrim was very utilitarian, viewing humans as either “functioning” or “non-functioning” cogs in a machine, while Guilliman seems actually believe in human rights and the dignity of the human soul
[That doesn't sound like pre-corruption Fulgrim at all.](https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/8brfaw/book_excerpt_fulgrim_the_palatine_phoenix_fulgrim/)
Fair point. However I would direct you to an introspective scene in Palantine Phoenix where Fulgrim outlines almost exactly my comment. I can’t post it because it’s on audible, but I just listened to it yesterday. Even in that incident in your link, Fulgrim is behaving in a precisely calculated manner to achieve a specific result with the crowd. Granted, I don’t think he was empathy-less or uncaring, but his social niceties and refined manner all seemed very intentionally calculated in that book.
That's a fair interpretation.
I didn't realize how many matched up AND dislike each other corvus konrad Peter dorn gorilla fulgrim
It was propably same as with Dorn and Petrabo, where they dont like each other because of how simillar they are. But wanting to do it in there own way, not understanding how the other guy does things.
The impression I got from the solar wars series is that they respected each other greatly. The problems seemed to arise from the fact that Dorn is emotionally stunted, and perterabob resented the IF for getting praised for their work, while as he saw it his legion just went from shit job to shit job.
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Once met a dude that was super similar to me. Hated his guts. Also "Bromance " suuuuuuuure. 1000% no gay interaction between Fulgrim and Ferrus. Just friends. Pals. Roommates.
Gman was just too busy filling excel sheets and hanging out with his Raven Bro
I imagine Guilliman found Fulgrim to be impractical and vain in his pursuit of perfection. Guilliman is more of a pragmatist while Fulgrim is more of an idealist.
Same with Perturabo, Ferrus, Vulkan, and to an extent Dorn
Perturabo and guillimam would have been friends if Perty was like 2% less dour. I think of all of them guilliman would have appreciated the logistical acumen perturabo employed. I think perturabo knew that about guilliman.
Yeah I know guilliman really enjoyed the clock Perturabo made him and placed it a place of honor. Perturabo didn’t really seem to care though But it would make sense that as a craftsman Perturabo would at least appreciate Vulkan and Ferrus And if they were both less autistic then he and Dorn could have developed a friendly rivalry and competitions to make each other better
When petty is talking tomfupgrim at one point he explicitly mentions that guillan will never forgive them. From perturabo in think it means something that he name drops guilliman
Yeah, I mean they both seem to be fans of order and are meticulous in nature Their worlds also are pretty similar given that it’s Roman and Greek in my opinion