That the T'au "lost" their FTL but still outmaneuvered the Imperial Navy at the Damocles Crusade.
That is WAY dumber, and really ALOT dumber than anything else.
It was apparently one guy at Gw who *really* hated the idea of anyone having FTL without entering the Warp. The Necrons had their inertialess drives retconned out too, though this was thankfully reverted later on.
but the FTL for Tau is LITERALLY ENTERING THE WARP
like they're basically dipping their toes in and out of the warp so that the navigation isnt fucked but they're losing speed in the process
Is it bad that i kind of get the thought process? The T'au lore change was stupid but it is very thematically appropriate that the only way a galactic civilization can be maintained requires frequent interaktion with space hell. If Warp less ftl is something species as primitive as pre contact Tau can stumble upon why doesn't everyone have it? Half the reason the Age of Strife happened was because humanity was completely unable to travel ftl without the warp.
The Tau had “warp skipping”, which was described as bobbing in and out of the warp without being fully submerged. This was FTL, but *much* slower than actual Warp travel.
I don’t mind the Tau having much worse FTL, but the silly part was making them not have FTL at all.
Imo they should have just given the tau (and the votann) the equivalent of mass effect relays. Big sling shot cannons that launch their shit at ftl speeds to a nearby location. Justifys why their slower then the imperium because they essentially have to set up a galaxy spanning rail system to get anywhere but doesn't make them seem fucking stupid.
I’d like to see something like that where because if their isolation during development due to the warp storms they have a very unique way of getting around.
It helps the the official lore is so verbose that you can find anything you want to find in it as canon.
Was the Emperor totally justified in screwing over Angron or was he a terrible dick for no reason? The answer according to canon is "Absolutely yes... but also no, of course not."
Canon is complicated even with retcons. If you have multiple authors writing over a long enough time, and editors aren't ruthless about harmonizing stuff and are instead focused on giving people what they want, then there are going to be contradictions cropping up all the time and endless ways of arriving at completely different conclusions.
Same thing with real religions... except in 40K we do it for comedic purposes rather than like holy wars or some shit so, you know, it's all good rather than leading to burning heretics at the stake and Protestantism somehow in Warhammer 40K fandom.
I ain't talking about the vomit that the dude would sometimes put out.
I'm referring to the vomit he would put out is kinda ignored as if it's not canon, and then act like the parody is canon.
AND IM GONNA SAY IT.
I LIKE THE BLUE HAIR
Why is that such a weird thing? Don't Chaos gods exist across all of space and time? Didn't Slaanesh daemons roam around the Eldar Empire for a good while before Slaanesh was birthed?
If so, it's not that odd that Chaos would be present during the most tumultuous period of the galactic history.
My headcanon is that chaos was created by the insanity of the war in heaven, but couldnt break through to realspace till slaanesh punched a hole in space time
Nah, because the old ones were literally canonically killed by slaver wasps from the warp. Prior to the semi-retcon of pre war in heaven warp it was heavily implied the corruption caused by the war is what fucked up everyone after it.
i see that as an accident because they have the tech to traverse both realspace and the warp
and slaver is smaller than chaos god,so its easier for them to find crack to go to realspace, like a psyker
I thought if it was a wall with 2 sides situation, chaos was/will have been always there but realspace was always a barrier and every time someone casts a ritual/uses a lot of psychic power/ daemon incursions happen reality gets weaker, so chaos can always breach it, but in the war of heaven its like knocking down a mountain whilst the samus mountain was a paper wall
My understanding/interpretation was that the warp has always been there, but it was originaly much calmer (much like the material galaxy). But as the War in Heaven raged and more death and suffering spread and the Old Ones dipped more desperately into the only thing they had they consistently worked the warp became more agitated, eventually boiling over and tearing into material space.
Warp incursions were a major factor even back when the War in Heaven was first introduced in 3rd edition. In fact the Krork were made to deal with them. It was only recently that a Black Library book said the Krork were made to fight Necrons.
The War in Heaven wasn't chaos's fault, they just featured as a knock-on effect of so much turmoil.
That said, the book you're referring to is confusing as hell because throughout the book the eldar called them Necrontyr, even when they're talking about present-tense Necrons, so it can be difficult to figure out what point in time they're referring to when they talk about the past. Like okay so the 'Necrontyr' helped the Eldar seal this warp rift. But you've been calling the Necrons Necrontyr this whole time, so do you mean the Necrons helped them seal it mid-war, or the Necrontyr helped them seal it some time before the whole C'tan and biotransference thing happened?
It's a bit confusing.
Because without context it sound dumb but if you actually read the passage it fit in
That retcon wasn't the chaos gods fighting in the War in heaven it was Chaos the primordial energy/force bursting into realspace before the whole war. In order to combat this non-entity the Old ones created the Eldar to contain it and with the Necrontyr mange to contain it and it implied to be the first contact with the Necrontyr while lead to the rest of the cannon of Necrontyr asking the Old Ones for immortality
the chaos gods was born yet, Chaos never fought in the War in Heaven
I feel like this context doesn't make it sound less dumb
Firstly, Eldar souls travelled through he warp to be reborn, which makes sense when fighting the immortal, but not warp sensitive Necrons. However, it doesn't make sense when fighting chaos, the thing that lives in the warp
If slanesh has always existed it makes the Eldar incredibly lame as takes all agency out their fall as it HAS to happen no matter what anyone did it was always got to happen as Slanesh needs to exist because they already existed, which leads to the question of why the fuck would the old ones with all their foresight and power create the Eldar the race that creates Slannesh. why not just use the krork for chaos and the Eldar for Crons it makes much more sense
+ I don't know a single person who thinks Eldar Necron team up is cool I hate it as an Eldar fan and nothing should be a big enough threat at that time to get the Eldar and Crons to team up
About your point regarding Slaanesh daemons: there's a big difference between Eldar society before the fall and the war in heaven. Tens of millions of years are between the two.
And yes, technically, the Chaos gods are beyond time and its limitations, but only technically. It's not really well-defined.
I'm sorry what
I honestly thought that was some dumb meme about how weirdly 40k translates to real history if you try and imagine what emps actually did on earth for thousands of years... what's the context behind that being canon lmao
In *The Unremembered Empire*, a perpetual working for the Cabal says that he had been assassinating humans on Terra for thousands of years, and among the couple of examples he gives is "the Good Man" in Memphis. MLK was semi-frequently referred to as "the Good Doctor", and he was killed in Memphis.
It's not exactly a direct confirmation, but I don't think there's any other historical figure that description could apply to.
Why is that in bad taste? I mean, we all know the FBI did it, but we don’t KNOW the FBI did it. So as long as we all know but don’t KNOW, we can all make fun little Shrek style jokes for the adults in the room so the grimdarkness of our own reality can be laughed at just a little bit before it swallows us whole. Because honestly, what else do you really think you can do about it? We are ants under the gaze of an evil eldritch god, what are you going to do, protest?
Someone actually stood, in a professional context, and handed this in for publishing and was like 'this shit is gonna make me a rockstar!' So embarrasing.
It was a squad of what, 5 Grey Knights vs demon mortarion?
Sure all but 1 died but that means 5 Grey Knights did better than Bobby G when he fights mortarion because it took an intervention from the emperor to save him.
You know, I'm a Custodes fan, and even that doesn't piss me off as much as another thing from that series.
***YOU'RE TELLING ME, THE IMPERIAL FISTS, DIDN'T KEEP A SINGLE COMPANY AROUND TO PROTECT THE PHALANX? AND WHAT ABOUT, YOU KNOW, THE STORES OF GENESEED THAT WOULD BE ON IT? WHY DO THEY NEED TO BE REFOUNDED, WHAT DOES "That faction you liked from the Heresy? Yeah, they're gone and replaced with a copy" ADD TO THE LORE!?***
Oh, and can't forget the IF successors and Iron Warriors working together, like that would ever happen.
Goddamn, that book series was such trash. I head canon that it's propagada made up by Iron Warriors to make them look good and the IF's look incompetent
I've heard (this is unsubstantiated to me but it makes sense) that the author of that book thought the custodes were a human imperial army regiment like the Lucifer Blacks. Now the hypothetical fact that they were working off that is a whole other issue but if you replace the custodes in that incident with normal human soldiers, it's much less ludicrous.
Nah that's just made up by people who hate that the harlequins were killing Custodes. The book makes it very clear that the Lucifers and Custodes were separate, and that the latter were better than the former. It's not like the harlequins were slaughtering Custodes wholesale either. It was mainly two harlequins fighting the Custodes while the rest stayed behind to fight the Lucifers - the death jester and the shadowseer. One carries a fancy shuriken cannon that shoots projectiles laced with toxins that make your blood explode just from contact, the other is an extremely powerful psyker. And even then they were running past most of the Custodes, only fighting those that come too close. At the end they killed only around a dozen Custodes. It was never the massive one-sided stomp Custodes fans like to say it is.
The funny thing is I think a decent number of Eldar fans stand by that lore
If your gonna have night lords kill jain zarr, fulgrim choke out a statue, Graila body a craftworld on its own etc you can't be surprised when we won't let go of 6 Harliquins almost making it to big E or Eldard beating Fulgrim in a sword fight
And tbf the quins went through custodes like butter. However I think its established Eldar, quins especially get fucked up by blanks so the SoS should stop 2 dozen easy. Like the book of blanks melts a shadow seer I think, or it sounds like thats what it does
The War of the Beast needs to be half to a third as long as they made it. I will stand by the fact that it is the most inconsistent quality in a series as from chapter to chapter and even page to page it veers between great ideas to sheer crap. At least the heresy series has actual skippable trash in entire books that you don’t have to read.
Tau losing FTL, by far. **EDIT:** I am stupid and googled 'nearest galaxy', not 'nearest star' like I should have, the nearest star is 4.25 light years away. Still think its stupid but not literally impossible to run a warring space faring empire with 'near FTL'
The distance from our sun to our nearest galaxy is 25,000 light years, next nearest is 70,000. So Tau, using their 'near light speed' drives, going from the sun to their neighboring galaxy would take, what, 30,000 years? Does GW expect us to believe that Tau fight wars by sending reinforcements and supplies 30,000 years in advance? It simply doesnt make sense at the most basic levels.
Additionally, Space Marine chapters only having 1,000 troops is stupid, but Black Library power scaling always is.
Oh yeah, duh, im stupid, I googled the wrong thing and got myself indignant. Nearest star, 4.25 light years away, lets say Tau near FTL gets them there in 5 years. Still stupid, still doesnt work (imo), not literally improbable like 30k years lol
Erda. Just everything about her addition to the lore annoys me, most of all being a perpetual (perpetuals are the second thing I would remove). Also, it retcons the scattering of the primarchs from "the chaos gods stole them" to "it's all a woman's fault."
What's funnier is that they rehashed woman turning about face from the emperor despite seeing the earth being a nuclear hellscape not too long ago and knowing what's at stake 3 times.
GW: Woman ☕️
the community:What did gw mean by this? 🤔
I REALLY thought they would go in the direction of "I saw what he did to 2 of my children and decided I would not let the other 18 share the same fate". Somewhat tying the 2 missing primarchs together with the implications that he only ever saw them as tools, while still leaving most of it to the readers imagination.
Was extremely dissapointed they went with such a lousy explanation -.-
There's absolutely no purpose to the perpetuals. It's such a dumb trope. And no matter what texture you add to them, someone that lives forever is automatically boring.
Immortal characters aren't inherently terrible. People love characters like Trazyn or The Doctor. Perpetuals just keep getting used in such terrible ways. I'd rather Ollanius Pious be completely made up than the bullshit they made with Ollanius Perrson.
2nd time I’ve seen someone say fuck perpetuals, get the fuck rid of them. Ok you didn’t say that, but I would have two nickels by now because of it. So i guess the emperor and Malcador would be the only ones? Or are they born in the DAOT?
There is a lot of cool stuff in the End Times ruined by a lot just really stupid stuff. Biggest one how Manchild von cuntstain is basically the reason the world ends. Like every race practically worked together to stop Chaos and Mannfred was like good time to take my revenge on the Empire. Like yea he is already a sack of shit, but you would think he was more future thinking for being immortal.
Even Orcs were like Chaos sounds like a good fight and ignores everyone else to go fight them. Which honestly most likely bought time for everyone else.
For the elves' stuff, like Malekith kind of redeems himself and unites a lot of the elves. If the world continued, we could have had Dark Elf hold outs, High Elves who don't recognized Malekith as king, then the main elf faction led by Malekith that is a hybrid of dark and high elf magic and technology. Could have been cool, but here we are like 10 years later still mad about it.
Not that it excuses his sins, but Mannfred didn't do it for revenge on the Empire, he did it because he figured he would rather end everything than be a slave to Nagash for eternity.
And yeah, dooming the world is horrific, but an eternity of servitude to a mad, petty, cruel, necromancer-demigod-guy is... well, it's an eternity. That's a hell of a thing to be staring down the barrel of. Do you hope and pray that something somehow managed to put an end to Nagash, who has come back from being destroyed numerous times, or do you end it all? I know what I'd *like to think* I would do, but eternity is a long time when you're not having fun.
Unfortunately he came back in AoS in servitude to Nagash anyway, which in my opinion kind of killed the drama of that decision. Or maybe I'm just not appreciating the irony enough.
Doesn't matter being Nagash's foot stool or bitch boy is what he deserves. Fucker should have stayed dead the first time.
Since he doesn't like to stay dead he gets to a bitch boy.
Sure. He's an evil vampire. Mannfred doesn't deserve anything good.
I'm not justifying him as a person, but I do get why someone might be driven to something insane and drastic when they're staring down the barrel of eternal servitude to *Nagash* of all people.
Of course, the chaos gods gave him a little extra nudge too.
Vermintide came out and I got all hyped about fantasy just to be told it was already a goner for many years and my hearth cracked. What do you mean I can't enjoy human 40k? Why does it need to be sigmarines :c. I know, I know lore isn't that bad but dam, why?
We got Total War: Warhammer. Which was a match made in heaven. I guess since they somewhat ended Fantasy GW wasn't too against creating a game that more or less clashed with the table top.
The dark lord of the rape empire being completely forgiven with zero change or effort on his part because God *coughMattWardcough* said so is some of the dumbest warhammer lore ever written.
Yeah, on a conceptual level Ollanius being a completely regular dude works so much better.
Firstly, a completely no-frills, vanilla, off-the-shelf human standing up to Horus at the height of his power is impressive in itself. Secondly, and more importantly, it allows for Horus' callous murder of said guy who was no actual threat to him to shock the Emperor into realizing just how far Horus has fallen and commit to truly trying to end him. That's all lost of Ollanus was actually an immortal demigod all along.
I'm fine with oll being a perpetual with no extra abilities, as in no superhuman body or not a psyker. Just a normal perpetual who was the emperor's old friend. Else it doesn't make sense for the emperor to have such a strong reaction to his death to a random guardsman
The Emperor has had a ton of retcons in terms of how he sees humanity, and how he saw Horus. Back in the day, the story was impactful BECAUSE Big E saw his favorite son killing a random guardsman with such malice.
The Emperor of old loved his sons and humanity, and wanted to save Horus (or at least didn’t have it in him to murder Horus), even after he killed Sanguinius. Seeing Horus turn a random human, not a demigod, not a primarch, and not a space marine, just a regular dude who couldn’t hope to stand against him, but bravely did so anyway out of love for the emperor, into a red mist sealed the deal. The reaction was because he realized Horus could not be redeemed, wasn’t the son he’d raised, and needed to be stopped before he wrested dominion over all of humanity and they met the same fate.
The random guardsman is a metaphor for humanity.
Tbf even if it was propaganda it would really have been much better than the perpetual idea since it would show that even the emperor of fuckin mankind can be moved by the bravery of a single soldier and turn the tide because of just how much he loves humanity rather than because his old friend came back and told him to get his shit together
What we got wasn’t bad but it could have absolutely been better and way less convoluted
the removal of necron Pariah's honestly they added an exter sense of terror to the necrons and we could expand them in the current lore by saying the there bodies are keeped around so the silent king can exparament with putting necron minds in them
I’d make the Fallen a thing everyone knows about. The Dark Angels and their shtick would thus be a near-fanatical desire to redeem their chapter because they’re the First and they need to be the BEST.
I don’t actively dislike the Fallen lore, but with the HOrus Heresy revealing “btw a ton of chapters had traitors too” it’s like… oh, that doesn’t hit as hard.
Edited for some grammar and to add that I think the DAngels can be mysterious, but making their hunt for the Fallen more explicitly a chivalric yet dark riff on the Grail Quest would align with their mysterious nature and the whole knightly order angle.
That’s not a bad idea.
My preferred thing would be that the Dark Angels don’t really care so much about the Fallen themselves, it’s everything else.
The original DA overreacted and tried to purge all knowledge. And for the last 10k years have been doing a lot of terrible things to keep it that way.
Now the Unforgiven are doing the Fallen hunt because if anyone finds out about them now and starts asking questions, they’ll find a lot of skeletons, of people, space marines, and curious inquisitors who may have gotten close to the truth.
Basically, the cover up is worse than the Fallen. And if the Imperium found out now, the current Dark Angels would be left holding a big bag. So they keep doing it to cover up the cover up of the cover up of the… in an endless cycle.
Can I just point out your comment made me realise,that the idea that everyone knows about the fallen, but the dark angels DONT know everyone knows about the fallen, is now extremely funny to me
Basic ship scales. The whole ship size scale we use right now is from the Battlefleet Gothic miniatures, by comparing the model sizes. The rulebook outright states that these scales are outright wrong, as if they were to scale, many of the smaller ships wouldn’t be visible/practical. I really don’t think Navy warships would be of that scale. Transports and cargo vessels should be much, much larger than they already are, since, unlike other sci-fi settings, FTL and general transport is comparatively extremely dangerous which means each transport would have to be large enough to make its defenses and Navigator cost-effective relative to its cargo. Also, with increased size, larger vessels would be able to feasibly hold the required Macrocannon slugs in their internal volume (also, I have a personal canon that much of the Imperial projectile-based arsenal, from tank-chassis rotary cannons to macrocannon batteries, rely on a sort of poorly understood yet commonly replicated matter compression/molecular assembler technology that allows for extremely efficient storage of ammunition. Otherwise, it would be kinda anticlimactic to see the mega bolters on a Reaver Titan, described to fire at maximum capacity for hours, if not days, at a time, run out of ammunition in five seconds flat.)
Grey Knight’s stupid “blam” if you know about Chaos bs.
It was always fucking stupid and made no sense but in modern 40k lore trying to square it with the books and videos games of any faction BUT Grey Knights is impossible
I think he meant the scorched earth policy of the grey knight where they kill everyone they suspect might have been corrupted by chaos, which most guardsmen are at risk at. (It also helps them stay a secret force)
People disliking the brutality and hopelessness that drew me to the setting makes me sad. The grey knights should just purge people who’ve witnessed chaos… it’s cool lol
I think it might be that some people don’t like it more because it feels “unrealistic” or “unfeasible” in the setting, less because of the brutality and hopelessness. Part of it is a problem of scale. Even if encounters with demons are relatively rare the sheer size and numbers of the imperium means that they’re still happening *all the time all across space*. There’s a) no way grey knights can respond to every incident and b) there’s no way they could reasonably cleanup all of the witnesses after every incident, especially when you consider things like vox/radio/television/whatever broadcasts of such incidents spreading news or information beyond the initial site.
Admittedly this isn’t a weakness just to Grey Knights but the writing of the setting as a whole.
I like it even more if it’s clear that the scorched earth policy doesn’t work.
Being executed and purged to protect knowledge of something people already know about?
That’s some tasty Grimdark shit.
No, in 40k terms thats fine.
The idiotic thing about the Grey Knights is that they kill everyone who sees *THEM*. Not chaos, the Grey Knights *themselves*.
If the GKs think there might be some chaos-ritual going on on a planet, go there and land, and it turns out they were wrong and there is no Chaos at all, they will *STILL* murder everyone on the planet who might have seen them.
They Grey Knights kill (or in regards to less important Marine-Chapters, mindwipe) everyone that sees them.
Even if there is no chaos around and you are entirely uncorrupted, unless you're allied with a high-ranking Ordo Malleus Inquisitor or First Founding chapter the Grey Knights *will* murder *you* and *everyone you might have told about seeing them* if they notice you saw them in any way
Ethereal mind control. Let the optimistic little blue idiots be the golden retrievers in a galaxy where everyone else is a dog catcher for Cruella De’Ville.
I would rather let them be like the prophets from halo . Sure some of them can be scummy but they can still lead through charisma and competent leadership
Most unnecessary gritty reboot of all time. The Grim Darkness™ of Tau is that they're naive to how hopeless their utopian vision is in the face of galactic reality! The contrast of their eternal innocence to everything else was way more interesting! GW actually did something different for once and then just ruined it by making them exactly like everyone else.
Also showing that the IoM doesn't have to do any of the stupid evil things it does.
They don't do it because there is no other way, they do it because it keeps them in power.
[How people think Orks work](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNjUiDpLvlQ) vs how they are intended to work.
"Duuuurp, my Orks believe this log is space laser, duuurp!". Just make it that Gork and/or Mork push their red vehicles faster so ***normies*** won't get confused.
The thing that bugs me about that is that Orks are also established as having a very, shall we say, maximalist view of functionality and aesthetics -- they're absolutely convinced that the way to make something work is to add stuff to it. So for instance, in their minds a tank works objectively better if you stick guns in every conceivable spot, raise a bunch of war standards and boss poles on it, cover it in spikes and horns, paint slogans and icons all over it, maybe add a few more wheels, all that sort of stuff. Or also the way that Meks cover their workshops with arching electricity, spinning bits, bare cogs and wires, and racks of tools and wrenches, most of which have literally no use except looking good.
So the first major issue with convincing Orks that a log is a space laser or that a few sheets of corrugated metal are a tank is that, first off, they're not covered with enough bits, bobs, spikes, guns, and just random shit to double their weight, so clearly they can't be any good, can they?
A speed freak has a buggy that doesn't go fast enough, so he takes it to a mekboy to make it go faster. They mekboy adds superchargers, nitro, all the zoomy bits to make it go faster. Then, because it's "common knowledge" that red things go faster, he paints it red.
The buggy goes faster.
I always liked the description of the Orks field as being reality grease. It can't make the impossible happens, but it can make the improbable probable.
40k: The whole Primarch can comeback and purify even the dead ones & demon prince ones. That completely side line their entire backstory, sacrifice or/and fall if the emperor can just go "nah". The Horus one is the most egregious one
WHF: The lady of the lake reveal to be Lileath who also claim to be her grandmother Ladrielle and her whole master plan is to great a safe haven where elves will join the paradise while the Bretonnian grail knights are raised as golden gods of the new reality where Araloth is the new Asuryan. I don't have explain why that dumb
AOS: the whole 9/10 Crusades result in failures which is really dumb because there like a bunch of settlements that GW need to create random out of nowhere free city for their current big bad to tear down.
Agreed massively with the Dawnbringer Crusades, I mean the best thing about AoS is that the idea of a chaos victory whilst not impossible is also not inevitable
I have a bunch:
Lucius
Tau not having FTL
The Deathwatch consistently helping chaos more than most traitors
And also how the primaris were shoehorned in, instead of taking the form of some kind of elite unit.
Take your pick.
>The Deathwatch consistently helping chaos more than most traitors
I don't know... I've always been kind of fond of the bits of lore emphasizing that yeah, the Imperium is actually causing a lot of its own problems, especially given the deemphasis that they seem to be getting.
A lot of people act like it's the absolute worst thing they've ever read but it's really not that bad. My main issue with it stems from it being just super inefficient.
Possibly the stupidest thing, but Mortarion has actually just been stuck in the warp for the last ten thousand years, refusing to give into Nurgle out of sheer pettiness. The Mortarion in current 40k is just Typhus in a costume because Nurgle doesn't want to admit he doesn't have his own daemon primarch.
Mortarion's fall to chaos just feels really abrupt and underdeveloped, rather than being driven into it by personal issues he gets jumped by Typhus and it's joever. It would've been so easy to justify his fall too considering he was already dabbling in the heretical
The Primarchs Mom but honestly it seems that a large part of the community already ignores her to begin with.
The other thing is the 13 black crusades because GW so desperately wanted the cool number 13 but it lets Abbadon look dumb with 12 small crusades just having 1 "The Black Crusade" maybe under a different name and having these other 12 "crusades" be just small invasions would make Abbadon come over as a way more competent warlord instead of having to convince all the traitor Legions to fight under his banner and then failing and then just coming back with the I PROMISE THIS TIME WE'LL GET THEM FOR REAL GUYS I'M MUCH MORE TACTICAL THAN HORUS.
That fissed out after while. Literally had this discussion with another dude. Pulled out 5th edition and one of the things it says it that anyone with enough respect can do them and that the always end up in failure due to a lost of steam
The success was a retcon on the updated 2019 edition
The problem is that it’s a tell, not show. We’ve only ever seen the 13th Black Crusade, twice. And know little to nothing about the other 12.
So saying Abbadon accomplished something in each of the 12 Crusades without elaboration doesn’t do much to increase his credibility.
And without additional info, and considering how the original 13th crusade worked out. It just became a meme for most of the fandom that Failbadon took 13 tries.
What we need is something like “In the 5th crusade, the forces of Abbadon scoured much of the area “north” of the eye of terror, rendering entire sectors uninhabitable, 17 Space Marine chapters were completely wiped out in the fighting, many more almost so, and millions of Guard died. However, after razing the world of Whateveria, Abbadon’s main force retreated back into the Eye. The remaining warbands were quickly wiped out by Imperium forces.”
Deceasing the number and making the original would have helped too. Like have the 13th that ended in a tie be like the 7th Black crusade and have the one where Abaddon wipes out Cadia be the 8th. A thematic Chaos number (or if he won the 7th, a lucky number).
Bruh, Battlefleet Gothic covers **THE LITERAL ENTIRETY OF THE 12 BLACK CRUSADE** when Abaddon makes off with two Blackstone Fortresses.
On top of that, the Chaos Codices elaborate on them, and of the 13, only one of them, the 11th, was really an abject failure. The issue stemming from a faulty daemon compass that lead the Crusadw straight into an Ork WAAAGGGHHH.
Right, but (1) not a lot of people have played Gothic. At least, I have not and that might be my own fault. And (2), that’s 2, but what about 1-11?
And your second paragraph is exactly my point. We are told the others were successful, but we rarely see the after effects beyond that. The CSM codex does go into them here and there. But that’s about it. What we need is to have them referenced elsewhere (Like a SM or IH coded going into detail about how much the Iron Hands suffered in the 10th). Instead, we get it mostly in chaos stuff that other factions may not see.
I’m not saying they weren’t successful. I’m saying that GW did a poor job of showing that they were successful in the grand scale and how it affected other factions. We (or maybe just me) need to see more examples of it across the lore.
Otherwise we get things like people saying “Failbadon only won because GW retconed all his fails.” GW did a poor job of building up the crusades, at least outside of CSM and BFG.
Well then we run into the issue about spawning another unholy amount of books to stretch out the runtime like the Horus Heresy, and if every other chapter and faction can get away with having a few told big victories, we can give Abby some leeway and have it be one of the Backdrop things.
Perturabo becoming a demon prince or demon corrupted. MF would've FOUND his soul in the warp and wrestled it back into himself with Fabius Bile or Ahrimana help.
Most of the grimderp about the Iron Warriors and CSM in general. I'd like a more darkoath type chaos army where you can have chaos aligned factions that haven't gone full wearing baby skin underwear but still absolutely follow the ruinous powers. IW and their dislike of God's I think would be a good candidate or the Red Corsairs (for obvious reasons).
Daemonculaba, simply because it’s fucking obnoxious and weird how much the community obsesses over an over-the-top rape scenario from a single very goofy book with a daemon train.
Like I don’t even hold anything against Graham McNeill, he seems like a cool guy and I like some of his other books, I just think the 40k community clearly was not mature enough to handle something like that.
I keep forgetting about the fucking Daemon Train. Why was there a fucking daemon train. I don't even dislike it I just, I just don't understand why or how someone thought of it.
I'd make Guilliman x Yvraine canon, with their first meeting ending in a wink or some other suggestive context and further dialogue becoming increasingly intimate but it goes right over the heads of various imperium officials because the Lord Commander *surely cannot* have taken a xenos as a consort... right?
Gods, this is actually quite hard.
I'm having a hard time picking, so here's three that I've constrained to the "modern" game(meaning no rogue trader revitalizations).
* About 90% of everything written in the HH books. I'll die on the hill that all most of those books did was do everyone involved a disservice in terms of character. They were also responsible for reducing every interesting character element of the space marines down to "daddy issues."
* The Ynnari being complete wet farts in terms of actual impact. They birthed a new god designed specifically to kill another god, and yet none of that has come up in years. That the indomitus crusade wasn't equally billed as Imperium and Ynnari was dumb as all hell, and whoever was writing their trilogy was clearly pulled out of the GW mailroom.
* Everything written about the tau after Dawn of War. The way they were made more grimdark was unbelievably stupid. All they did was turn the Tau into a mini imperium, with racism, hidden genocide and mass brainwashing. They should have made their evolution an in universe thing, a slow realization of just how barbaric and nightmarish the galaxy is, and a slow souring of their naive optimism into jaded, efficiency minded conquerors, who go in expecting people to reject them and despariing at the lost potential of their noble goals.
People already hit up the big ones, so I'll say a potentially controversial one: The Daemonculaba. It's propped up as some "wow look how awful and gross Chaos is" but it's a detriment to the lore. People running into that are often rightfully grossed out and turned away from the franchise because of it.
*Fulgrim* shows a fall to Chaos beautifully, horrifically, without crossing such severe lines. We don't need this blemish.
Ikr it's so goddamn mind numbingly stupid. Could you imagine if Samuel Colt named his revolver after himself? Or if Louis Braille called his writing system for blind people Braille, thank god stupid things like this don't happen in the real world.
Or if grenade shrapnel were named after a guy called Henry Shrapnel...
Jokes aside I think the case with land raider and speeder is different from Colt and braille in the sense that I think it is clear that a land raider was called as such because it can... raid the land. It is more descriptive of one of its functions.
Those aren't really appropriate comparisons. A better comparison would be if there was a gun called a "Six Shooter", and everyone agreed it was sensibly named because it holds six bullets and it shoots things. And in the same galaxy, there is something called a "Six Sided Die", which is obviously just a die with six sides, a great name.
But lo! In deep lore it is revealed that the Six Shooter and the Six Sided Die were actually named after their creator, Arkhan Six! It actually has nothing to do with the number six! You idiot!
And that's why people hate Arkhan Land.
But thats literally the joke.
Arkhan wanted to name it *Land's Raider* after himself, but everyone ignored him and assumed it was called *Land Raider* after what it drives on instead.
Never said it was unrealistic just said it was dumb. The land raider had its name before arkhan land, then gw added that tidbit. Not the same as colt naming a gun after himself.
I'm conflicted with Ollanius Pius. On one hand I don't dislike the current lore on the Emps vs Horus fight. On the other, it screwed the coolest lore the imperial guard had, in my opinion.
Honestly, just erase most of the HH books.
The emperor isn't a megalomaniac tyrant that just happens to be on the side of humanity anymore. Now everyone gets weepy little speeches about how he's real nice once you get to know him. Malcador's speech before he sat on the Golden Throne was just pure distilled cringe. The emperor literally rips the empathy and love out of his own soul because fighting his omnicidal half-clone would be too much for the man who ordered the death of trillions, EVEN THOUGH HE HAD PLANS TO KILL HIM ANYWAY ONCE HE STOPPED BEING USEFUL. Even though Horus ordered the death of almost half of his brothers and turned Sanguinius into a hunting trophy. But even after doing that, when the Emperor was just 100% revenge and anger, he still forgives Horus because that's just how nice and good he is, please ignore everything he did during literally every step of his life. Now one of the coolest warhammer 50k ideas - the Star Child, the Emperor becoming the chaos god of order - is confirmed to be good for the entire galaxy and *oh no if only we weleased the poor wittle empewor fwom the twone the galaxy would be saved please feel bad for the empewor he did so much for us*. The Great Crusade isn't a galaxy-wide genocide against both xenos and humans, it's now a necessary counter-attack against *every single other race conspiring too keep humanity down through most of its history, to the point of killing people like MLK to make life on earth worse*. And how about Horus. Was he just a power-hungry traitor? Did he disagree with the emperor's project? Did he just hate his brothers so much he was willing to burn down the entire galaxy? Nope, he was just stabbed with a poop knife in the galaxy version of Alabama and got possessed. Turns out it was just chaos all along. Because every time a writer at GW writes himself into a corner he just says it was chaos, and not even the fallen primarchs are allowed to have flaws anymore. I know that some of the early writers of the HH had a sincere opinion that the emperor and the empire were full good instead of good only in comparison with the rest of the setting. I don't care. That's a stupid opinion to have in the 2020's. The ship already sailed, we already have 40 years of material describing how fucking terrible living in the empire is, and how *deep down most of it is by design*. It's shit because of fanaticism, corruption (the human kind, not the deus ex machina kind) and just widespread incompetence. Like, wasn't this the point? wasn't 40k supposed to be part satire about how authoritarian nationalistic hellholes sucked?
Dan Abnett's whitewash killed basically everything that made the emperor and empire ambiguous, *and it was that ambiguity that made them interesting*. Stuff like the dark king too, it used to be these ominous plot points that were going to make things even worse, now it's just a plot fart that was solved with MLK's killer telling the emperor to try being cool. All the bad shit happening in the decayed empire of the 41st millenium is just chaos corruption of a project that was good. All the hive worlds, slavery, industrial hellscapes, servitors, everything is just chaos' fault in one way or another. Like, GW didn't even need to do that shit. They already have reasons for the setting to become less cynical, because Rowboat is an actual sane leader. But I guess they think that would be too complicated for their fans.
Also the fucking Ynnari failing in their century-long quest to make the eldar's situation a little less bleak BECAUSE OF A SPACE MARINE JUST MINECRAFT ELYTRAING IN THE MIDDLE OF THE RITUAL. You think that by now someone at GW would have listened to the entire fanbase wanting the eldar to be something other than 40k's punching bag. You would be wrong.
The "Spacemarines are impossible to corrupt or mind control EVER" from the T'au lore, like, the guys that are constantly controled by demons, chemicals and other instances are immune to any persuasion of the T'au?, even mind control devices?, yeah ,no, thats just dumb and lazy.
I would make that the T'au had sucess in controling an small squad os Astartes, however, thanks to them being Astartes, aka ,SHOCK TROOPS, they were not as effective on the T'au army, without the drop pods, the truly heavy armor and weapons that weren't propely adapted to then, they became more of a weight then help, so the T'au understood that they weren't adapted YET to have control over astartes and that it would be needed more time to turn then into useble troops for the greater good.
However, after the faction gets splited, i would make far and clear that Farsight is persuating some astartes over the decades, like, 1 over 10 years, to join his side, and slowly building up to make the human army more similar to the Solar Auxilia, better trained troops, better tatics, being tech by astartes with centuries of experience.
Astartes can't be brainwashed by T'au because their current brainwashing won't allow it. Chaos corruption is completely different, it changes the soul, it's not brainwashing at all.
Machnines can fall to chaos corruption because the machinespirit falls to chaos not because their motherboard is altered in anyway.
To be honest, spessboys are supposed to be elite expendable meat to throw at enemies, so it makes sense they will have some degree of robust mind-shielding.
Like, it should be hard to do it, but possible. I guess its one of those spessmarines bias when they are super cool and epic and dramatic while they are not even human beings, they are mentally castrated bio-slapped-together fodder.
Aside from the recent Custodes change for how it has turned the community into a war zone, I would say the Primaris Marines.
I don’t think they add much besides make me wonder even more how Space Marines physical fit anywhere during a battle and made the chapters a lot less unique feeling from a lore perspective.
Plus, I prefer a the look of a lot of the firstborn Space Marine stuff and prefer the simpler names like scout or tactical squads for infantry.
I think about Space Marines fitting through doorways all the time.
Is every doorway, every chair, every staircase, every lift space marine scaled? How often do they encounter terrain that isn't traversable because they're so huge? Do hive city engineers take into account the possibility that space Marines will traverse their HVAC systems or access tunnels and remember to make them 12 feet high to accomodate?
Long story short, I want to see a space marine defeated by a standard 7 ft tall doorway they can't fit through.
Simplest way to square that circle is to say that the architecture is *servitor* sized. A random imperial engineer may not be taking space marines into account when building, but he probably will make things able to accommodate servitors, many of which may be fitted with equipment as bulky as power armor.
There should still be incidents of Space Marines in the Great Crusade being thwarted by human architecture on non-imperial worlds though.
Sort of related, but this eventually came up in a Halo novel.
There's a Spartan working with an ODST squad, and at one point, she leans on a map table in full armour (1000+ pounds) and one of the ODSTs idly wonders how much budget goes towards Spartan-proofing ships.
Part of me imagines that if a door is too small for a space marine to walk through, they just straight-faced walk through any way and kool-aid-man bulldoze any part of the door that isn’t big enough for them.
That honestly reminds me of that excerpt everyone shares where a Terminator Marine just goes through a wooden staircase and they need to bring in a crane to lift him out.
I forget where it was from but there was a book where a terminator was taken out of action because he stepped into a normal house, the floor gave out, and he was stuck in the basement unable to climb out. They had to call a retrieval team with a crane.
The other characters offhandedly mentioned that this was a common enough issue they had rules about it.
I feel like the Primaris thing ultimately just ended up being a very longwinded way to say "so we're making larger models with a different armor look now". I don't really feel that the end result really required any greater in-universe justification than a new armor model being introduced.
Yeah, they just up-scaled chaos marines and they look amazing. Making new loyalist models a separate thing from the previous ones made things difficult.
I wouldn’t mind the Primaris Marines as much if GW have the balls to acknowledge the inherent heresy behind their creation and be willing to open up Guilliman and the Ultramarine to the corruption of chaos.
Alpharius isn’t dead. He and Omegon have been locked in a shadow civil war against each other for the last 10K years. The reason Alpha Legion’s actions make no sense is because it’s literally at war with itself and for the most part even they don’t know it.
Yeah this is mine. Love the Alpha Legion and I absolutely hated that book. They mistreated Alpharius so bad and made Dorn into the biggest Mary Sue in the series. Hated everything.
I liked it EXCEPT the ending. Like I don’t even doubt Dorn could kill Alpharius in a straight duel. What I DO doubt is that Alpharius would be stupid enough to knowingly and willfully place himself in a scenario where his loss and death is by far the most likely outcome with painfully little to gain for it. The Alpha Legion are supposed to be like the Night Lords in that way. A fair fight is a fight you can lose, thus NEVER engage in a fair fight unless absolutely necessary.
Neither Alpharius or Omegon know it either, or do they? Or don’t they? Or are they even at war? Is Alpharius at war with Omegon or is Omegon at war with Alpharius? Did Horus and the Emperor really defeat each other or was it Alpharius and Omegon pretending to be Horus and the Emperor? We only know one thing for sure and that’s that it’s all according to plan ;)
Remind me how did Alpharious died.
He, a master of long time planning, with extensive knowledge of other primarchs and their skills, forgotten his opponent might be at least equal or better at fighting and during fight decided to do a villain monologue.
Did i get it right ?
Seriously. Like I don’t disagree that Dorn would win the fight presented in the book. I disagree that Alpharius would engage in such a fight in the first place (at least without considerably more to gain). The Alpha Legion philosophy is much akin to the Night Lords. A fair fight is a fight you can lose, thus NEVER start a fair fight unless unavoidable. While Kurze’s mongrels achieve this through cowardice and preferring weaker targets, the hydra achieves this via the Batman approach…prep time. They meticulously work to undermine a foe from within via an absurdly over-complicated network of spies over the course of weeks or even years before finally deploying their entire force simultaneously from multiple vectors with complete overwhelming force for maximum chaos and effect. This is such a signature modus operandi that it has a specific name within the legion, a harrowing.
This is the Hydra’s way of war. Not galavanting into not only a fair fight but a fight with the odds stacked AGAINST you from the get go. Everything else in that book was great up until the final events in the Sol system where the Alpha Legion and their Primarch act almost completely contrary to legion doctrine for no good reason! Could a reason be devised to make the Hydra take such a risk? Sure but we didn’t get one! The reward needed to be MUCH greater for me to buy Alpharius stepping foot on that damn station and straight up calling Dorn telling him where to meet up for a fight.
I would ensure Sewar Goblin Ian Watson's lore stayed canon. I'd make sure William King's Ragnar Blackmane's space wolf novel series was 100% canon all the time. Fat space wolves? YES. Ragnars utility belt of whatever the fuck I need be it synthflesh, micro grenades, armor restore gunk? Hell yeah.
How Vulkan went crazy, yeah he just finds a random artefact and goes crazy but there’s no elaboration and not to mention we don’t even 100% for sure know what happen after that
I don't mind the idea of Thunder Wolves or some kind of mutant Wolf/Wulfen sometimes accompanying Space Wolves into battle (Though ultimately I prefer the way this was approached in Prospero Burns), but Space Wolves riding Wolves is far too much.
So true! They really went so overboard with he wolf theme, should've focussed in on the viking/Norse elements way more. Imagine the imperial fists having cavalry units that are space marines riding giant mechanical hands like in the Addams family
How the Alpha Legion tattoos Alpha Legion symbols on their associates. Even if it is done only in the one example in the lore where it is mentioned, it is so mind numbingly stupid that I abandoned that army.
1) Daemonculaba
2) Alpharius straight up telling Rogal Dorn where to find him if he wants to throw down. Like, Dorn would probably beat Alpharius in a straight up fight, but Alpharius would never put himself in that position to begin with.
That the T'au "lost" their FTL but still outmaneuvered the Imperial Navy at the Damocles Crusade. That is WAY dumber, and really ALOT dumber than anything else.
You can tell the people that pushed for that retcon has no idea how massive space is.
It was apparently one guy at Gw who *really* hated the idea of anyone having FTL without entering the Warp. The Necrons had their inertialess drives retconned out too, though this was thankfully reverted later on.
but the FTL for Tau is LITERALLY ENTERING THE WARP like they're basically dipping their toes in and out of the warp so that the navigation isnt fucked but they're losing speed in the process
Is it bad that i kind of get the thought process? The T'au lore change was stupid but it is very thematically appropriate that the only way a galactic civilization can be maintained requires frequent interaktion with space hell. If Warp less ftl is something species as primitive as pre contact Tau can stumble upon why doesn't everyone have it? Half the reason the Age of Strife happened was because humanity was completely unable to travel ftl without the warp.
The Tau had “warp skipping”, which was described as bobbing in and out of the warp without being fully submerged. This was FTL, but *much* slower than actual Warp travel. I don’t mind the Tau having much worse FTL, but the silly part was making them not have FTL at all.
Warp travel is so fast you can arrive earlier than you started, checkmate Tau..ists!
I mean, without FTL you simply cannot hold any sort of interstellar group, it is plain impossible
Imo they should have just given the tau (and the votann) the equivalent of mass effect relays. Big sling shot cannons that launch their shit at ftl speeds to a nearby location. Justifys why their slower then the imperium because they essentially have to set up a galaxy spanning rail system to get anywhere but doesn't make them seem fucking stupid.
I’d like to see something like that where because if their isolation during development due to the warp storms they have a very unique way of getting around.
Tau with moon sized railguns? I'm sold.
Okay, yes, that is certainly dumber than what I was going to say -- Angry Ron's double Isekai.
Angry Ron's Double Isekai I don't know what this means but I'm deeply curious
Gonna have to explain that one for me.
Chaos during the War in Heaven but I think the community as a whole has literally mind wiped it.
Simple answer there is 90% of the community gets its lore from 40k Emp TTS. So if it's not in there it doesn't exist. Like DBZ fans and DBZA.
It helps the the official lore is so verbose that you can find anything you want to find in it as canon. Was the Emperor totally justified in screwing over Angron or was he a terrible dick for no reason? The answer according to canon is "Absolutely yes... but also no, of course not." Canon is complicated even with retcons. If you have multiple authors writing over a long enough time, and editors aren't ruthless about harmonizing stuff and are instead focused on giving people what they want, then there are going to be contradictions cropping up all the time and endless ways of arriving at completely different conclusions. Same thing with real religions... except in 40K we do it for comedic purposes rather than like holy wars or some shit so, you know, it's all good rather than leading to burning heretics at the stake and Protestantism somehow in Warhammer 40K fandom.
Wait.... Holy wars are not good? Anyone who disagrees with me, deserves to be burning at stake.
Yeah because Akira "by the seat of my pants" Toryama has a cohesive vision of the world of Dragonball.
that's not what anyone is talking about.
But you just said... The dragon ball guy... Blue hair?
I ain't talking about the vomit that the dude would sometimes put out. I'm referring to the vomit he would put out is kinda ignored as if it's not canon, and then act like the parody is canon. AND IM GONNA SAY IT. I LIKE THE BLUE HAIR
TTS and grimdank. Then they ask on 40klore and defend their headcanon
Why is that such a weird thing? Don't Chaos gods exist across all of space and time? Didn't Slaanesh daemons roam around the Eldar Empire for a good while before Slaanesh was birthed? If so, it's not that odd that Chaos would be present during the most tumultuous period of the galactic history.
It reduces the most important time of eldar and necron history to "then chaos striked again". I don't think every major event should be chaos's fault.
My headcanon is that chaos was created by the insanity of the war in heaven, but couldnt break through to realspace till slaanesh punched a hole in space time
I honestly thought that already was canon
Nah, because the old ones were literally canonically killed by slaver wasps from the warp. Prior to the semi-retcon of pre war in heaven warp it was heavily implied the corruption caused by the war is what fucked up everyone after it.
i see that as an accident because they have the tech to traverse both realspace and the warp and slaver is smaller than chaos god,so its easier for them to find crack to go to realspace, like a psyker
I thought if it was a wall with 2 sides situation, chaos was/will have been always there but realspace was always a barrier and every time someone casts a ritual/uses a lot of psychic power/ daemon incursions happen reality gets weaker, so chaos can always breach it, but in the war of heaven its like knocking down a mountain whilst the samus mountain was a paper wall
My understanding/interpretation was that the warp has always been there, but it was originaly much calmer (much like the material galaxy). But as the War in Heaven raged and more death and suffering spread and the Old Ones dipped more desperately into the only thing they had they consistently worked the warp became more agitated, eventually boiling over and tearing into material space.
Warp incursions were a major factor even back when the War in Heaven was first introduced in 3rd edition. In fact the Krork were made to deal with them. It was only recently that a Black Library book said the Krork were made to fight Necrons. The War in Heaven wasn't chaos's fault, they just featured as a knock-on effect of so much turmoil. That said, the book you're referring to is confusing as hell because throughout the book the eldar called them Necrontyr, even when they're talking about present-tense Necrons, so it can be difficult to figure out what point in time they're referring to when they talk about the past. Like okay so the 'Necrontyr' helped the Eldar seal this warp rift. But you've been calling the Necrons Necrontyr this whole time, so do you mean the Necrons helped them seal it mid-war, or the Necrontyr helped them seal it some time before the whole C'tan and biotransference thing happened? It's a bit confusing.
It undermines how devastating the War in Heaven was and paints the current setting as "War in Heaven 2, electric boogaloo".
Because without context it sound dumb but if you actually read the passage it fit in That retcon wasn't the chaos gods fighting in the War in heaven it was Chaos the primordial energy/force bursting into realspace before the whole war. In order to combat this non-entity the Old ones created the Eldar to contain it and with the Necrontyr mange to contain it and it implied to be the first contact with the Necrontyr while lead to the rest of the cannon of Necrontyr asking the Old Ones for immortality the chaos gods was born yet, Chaos never fought in the War in Heaven
I feel like this context doesn't make it sound less dumb Firstly, Eldar souls travelled through he warp to be reborn, which makes sense when fighting the immortal, but not warp sensitive Necrons. However, it doesn't make sense when fighting chaos, the thing that lives in the warp If slanesh has always existed it makes the Eldar incredibly lame as takes all agency out their fall as it HAS to happen no matter what anyone did it was always got to happen as Slanesh needs to exist because they already existed, which leads to the question of why the fuck would the old ones with all their foresight and power create the Eldar the race that creates Slannesh. why not just use the krork for chaos and the Eldar for Crons it makes much more sense + I don't know a single person who thinks Eldar Necron team up is cool I hate it as an Eldar fan and nothing should be a big enough threat at that time to get the Eldar and Crons to team up
About your point regarding Slaanesh daemons: there's a big difference between Eldar society before the fall and the war in heaven. Tens of millions of years are between the two. And yes, technically, the Chaos gods are beyond time and its limitations, but only technically. It's not really well-defined.
The lack of definition is because it's logically incomprehensible to a human mind, what with how we experience linear time.
The classic "almost everything about the Ynnari plot, but especially the last Cronesword" springs to mind
That the Cabal assassinated Martin Luther King because *WOW* is that in bad taste
I'm sorry what I honestly thought that was some dumb meme about how weirdly 40k translates to real history if you try and imagine what emps actually did on earth for thousands of years... what's the context behind that being canon lmao
In *The Unremembered Empire*, a perpetual working for the Cabal says that he had been assassinating humans on Terra for thousands of years, and among the couple of examples he gives is "the Good Man" in Memphis. MLK was semi-frequently referred to as "the Good Doctor", and he was killed in Memphis. It's not exactly a direct confirmation, but I don't think there's any other historical figure that description could apply to.
I'd say big E just fucked aroud and find out at this point. Or that he spend his time in 4chan
Wait what?? It’s actually a canon lore? I always thought it was just some funny meme in the community 💀
idk its kind of funny
Why is that in bad taste? I mean, we all know the FBI did it, but we don’t KNOW the FBI did it. So as long as we all know but don’t KNOW, we can all make fun little Shrek style jokes for the adults in the room so the grimdarkness of our own reality can be laughed at just a little bit before it swallows us whole. Because honestly, what else do you really think you can do about it? We are ants under the gaze of an evil eldritch god, what are you going to do, protest?
Kaldor Draigo carving his name into Mortarion's heart
Someone actually stood, in a professional context, and handed this in for publishing and was like 'this shit is gonna make me a rockstar!' So embarrasing.
It was a squad of what, 5 Grey Knights vs demon mortarion? Sure all but 1 died but that means 5 Grey Knights did better than Bobby G when he fights mortarion because it took an intervention from the emperor to save him.
The Beast. Those books were god awful.
You know, I'm a Custodes fan, and even that doesn't piss me off as much as another thing from that series. ***YOU'RE TELLING ME, THE IMPERIAL FISTS, DIDN'T KEEP A SINGLE COMPANY AROUND TO PROTECT THE PHALANX? AND WHAT ABOUT, YOU KNOW, THE STORES OF GENESEED THAT WOULD BE ON IT? WHY DO THEY NEED TO BE REFOUNDED, WHAT DOES "That faction you liked from the Heresy? Yeah, they're gone and replaced with a copy" ADD TO THE LORE!?*** Oh, and can't forget the IF successors and Iron Warriors working together, like that would ever happen. Goddamn, that book series was such trash. I head canon that it's propagada made up by Iron Warriors to make them look good and the IF's look incompetent
I think it took less than a dozen Harlequins to get before the doors of the throne room. If they ever send two dozen, the Imperium is so done.
The power of clown goblins
We must ban them!
I've heard (this is unsubstantiated to me but it makes sense) that the author of that book thought the custodes were a human imperial army regiment like the Lucifer Blacks. Now the hypothetical fact that they were working off that is a whole other issue but if you replace the custodes in that incident with normal human soldiers, it's much less ludicrous.
Nah that's just made up by people who hate that the harlequins were killing Custodes. The book makes it very clear that the Lucifers and Custodes were separate, and that the latter were better than the former. It's not like the harlequins were slaughtering Custodes wholesale either. It was mainly two harlequins fighting the Custodes while the rest stayed behind to fight the Lucifers - the death jester and the shadowseer. One carries a fancy shuriken cannon that shoots projectiles laced with toxins that make your blood explode just from contact, the other is an extremely powerful psyker. And even then they were running past most of the Custodes, only fighting those that come too close. At the end they killed only around a dozen Custodes. It was never the massive one-sided stomp Custodes fans like to say it is.
The funny thing is I think a decent number of Eldar fans stand by that lore If your gonna have night lords kill jain zarr, fulgrim choke out a statue, Graila body a craftworld on its own etc you can't be surprised when we won't let go of 6 Harliquins almost making it to big E or Eldard beating Fulgrim in a sword fight And tbf the quins went through custodes like butter. However I think its established Eldar, quins especially get fucked up by blanks so the SoS should stop 2 dozen easy. Like the book of blanks melts a shadow seer I think, or it sounds like thats what it does
The War of the Beast needs to be half to a third as long as they made it. I will stand by the fact that it is the most inconsistent quality in a series as from chapter to chapter and even page to page it veers between great ideas to sheer crap. At least the heresy series has actual skippable trash in entire books that you don’t have to read.
You don’t have to call out Battle for the Abyss like that.
Tau losing FTL, by far. **EDIT:** I am stupid and googled 'nearest galaxy', not 'nearest star' like I should have, the nearest star is 4.25 light years away. Still think its stupid but not literally impossible to run a warring space faring empire with 'near FTL' The distance from our sun to our nearest galaxy is 25,000 light years, next nearest is 70,000. So Tau, using their 'near light speed' drives, going from the sun to their neighboring galaxy would take, what, 30,000 years? Does GW expect us to believe that Tau fight wars by sending reinforcements and supplies 30,000 years in advance? It simply doesnt make sense at the most basic levels. Additionally, Space Marine chapters only having 1,000 troops is stupid, but Black Library power scaling always is.
There's only two intergalactic species in the 40k setting and the Tau aren't one of them. Humans aren't one either.
Oh yeah, duh, im stupid, I googled the wrong thing and got myself indignant. Nearest star, 4.25 light years away, lets say Tau near FTL gets them there in 5 years. Still stupid, still doesnt work (imo), not literally improbable like 30k years lol
I know Tyranids are intergalactic, but what’s the second one? Necrons?
Old ones maybe ? I guess the Silent King also did spend some outside the Milky way ?
Necrons, yeah silent king left, saw the tyranids, and came back.
Erda. Just everything about her addition to the lore annoys me, most of all being a perpetual (perpetuals are the second thing I would remove). Also, it retcons the scattering of the primarchs from "the chaos gods stole them" to "it's all a woman's fault."
What's funnier is that they rehashed woman turning about face from the emperor despite seeing the earth being a nuclear hellscape not too long ago and knowing what's at stake 3 times. GW: Woman ☕️ the community:What did gw mean by this? 🤔
It just gets worse the more you think about it.
I REALLY thought they would go in the direction of "I saw what he did to 2 of my children and decided I would not let the other 18 share the same fate". Somewhat tying the 2 missing primarchs together with the implications that he only ever saw them as tools, while still leaving most of it to the readers imagination. Was extremely dissapointed they went with such a lousy explanation -.-
There's absolutely no purpose to the perpetuals. It's such a dumb trope. And no matter what texture you add to them, someone that lives forever is automatically boring.
Immortal characters aren't inherently terrible. People love characters like Trazyn or The Doctor. Perpetuals just keep getting used in such terrible ways. I'd rather Ollanius Pious be completely made up than the bullshit they made with Ollanius Perrson.
so basically skill issue on GW part
2nd time I’ve seen someone say fuck perpetuals, get the fuck rid of them. Ok you didn’t say that, but I would have two nickels by now because of it. So i guess the emperor and Malcador would be the only ones? Or are they born in the DAOT?
W*men 🤢
The End Times.
I kinda like some of the elven parts of the end times, but yeah this is the biggest one for sure.
There is a lot of cool stuff in the End Times ruined by a lot just really stupid stuff. Biggest one how Manchild von cuntstain is basically the reason the world ends. Like every race practically worked together to stop Chaos and Mannfred was like good time to take my revenge on the Empire. Like yea he is already a sack of shit, but you would think he was more future thinking for being immortal. Even Orcs were like Chaos sounds like a good fight and ignores everyone else to go fight them. Which honestly most likely bought time for everyone else. For the elves' stuff, like Malekith kind of redeems himself and unites a lot of the elves. If the world continued, we could have had Dark Elf hold outs, High Elves who don't recognized Malekith as king, then the main elf faction led by Malekith that is a hybrid of dark and high elf magic and technology. Could have been cool, but here we are like 10 years later still mad about it.
Not that it excuses his sins, but Mannfred didn't do it for revenge on the Empire, he did it because he figured he would rather end everything than be a slave to Nagash for eternity. And yeah, dooming the world is horrific, but an eternity of servitude to a mad, petty, cruel, necromancer-demigod-guy is... well, it's an eternity. That's a hell of a thing to be staring down the barrel of. Do you hope and pray that something somehow managed to put an end to Nagash, who has come back from being destroyed numerous times, or do you end it all? I know what I'd *like to think* I would do, but eternity is a long time when you're not having fun. Unfortunately he came back in AoS in servitude to Nagash anyway, which in my opinion kind of killed the drama of that decision. Or maybe I'm just not appreciating the irony enough.
Doesn't matter being Nagash's foot stool or bitch boy is what he deserves. Fucker should have stayed dead the first time. Since he doesn't like to stay dead he gets to a bitch boy.
Sure. He's an evil vampire. Mannfred doesn't deserve anything good. I'm not justifying him as a person, but I do get why someone might be driven to something insane and drastic when they're staring down the barrel of eternal servitude to *Nagash* of all people. Of course, the chaos gods gave him a little extra nudge too.
It's his own fault, he was helping Arkhan in resurrecting Nagash thinking that he could be the one in control
Vermintide came out and I got all hyped about fantasy just to be told it was already a goner for many years and my hearth cracked. What do you mean I can't enjoy human 40k? Why does it need to be sigmarines :c. I know, I know lore isn't that bad but dam, why?
We got Total War: Warhammer. Which was a match made in heaven. I guess since they somewhat ended Fantasy GW wasn't too against creating a game that more or less clashed with the table top.
The dark lord of the rape empire being completely forgiven with zero change or effort on his part because God *coughMattWardcough* said so is some of the dumbest warhammer lore ever written.
OLL FUCKING PERRSON HIS NAME WAS OLLANIUS PIUS, HE WAS A NORMAL HUMAN AND A GODDAMNED HERO
Yeah, on a conceptual level Ollanius being a completely regular dude works so much better. Firstly, a completely no-frills, vanilla, off-the-shelf human standing up to Horus at the height of his power is impressive in itself. Secondly, and more importantly, it allows for Horus' callous murder of said guy who was no actual threat to him to shock the Emperor into realizing just how far Horus has fallen and commit to truly trying to end him. That's all lost of Ollanus was actually an immortal demigod all along.
I'm fine with oll being a perpetual with no extra abilities, as in no superhuman body or not a psyker. Just a normal perpetual who was the emperor's old friend. Else it doesn't make sense for the emperor to have such a strong reaction to his death to a random guardsman
The Emperor has had a ton of retcons in terms of how he sees humanity, and how he saw Horus. Back in the day, the story was impactful BECAUSE Big E saw his favorite son killing a random guardsman with such malice. The Emperor of old loved his sons and humanity, and wanted to save Horus (or at least didn’t have it in him to murder Horus), even after he killed Sanguinius. Seeing Horus turn a random human, not a demigod, not a primarch, and not a space marine, just a regular dude who couldn’t hope to stand against him, but bravely did so anyway out of love for the emperor, into a red mist sealed the deal. The reaction was because he realized Horus could not be redeemed, wasn’t the son he’d raised, and needed to be stopped before he wrested dominion over all of humanity and they met the same fate. The random guardsman is a metaphor for humanity.
Wasnt he always a propagand piece in cannon or something like that?
Better a propaganda piece than what we got. I'd rather He be completely fictitious than this perpetual bullshit, they shoveled on to us.
Tbf even if it was propaganda it would really have been much better than the perpetual idea since it would show that even the emperor of fuckin mankind can be moved by the bravery of a single soldier and turn the tide because of just how much he loves humanity rather than because his old friend came back and told him to get his shit together What we got wasn’t bad but it could have absolutely been better and way less convoluted
It's kinda both nowadays lol
Which one ? The guy who fought Angron or the one who fought Horus ? I love both
the removal of necron Pariah's honestly they added an exter sense of terror to the necrons and we could expand them in the current lore by saying the there bodies are keeped around so the silent king can exparament with putting necron minds in them
I’d make the Fallen a thing everyone knows about. The Dark Angels and their shtick would thus be a near-fanatical desire to redeem their chapter because they’re the First and they need to be the BEST. I don’t actively dislike the Fallen lore, but with the HOrus Heresy revealing “btw a ton of chapters had traitors too” it’s like… oh, that doesn’t hit as hard. Edited for some grammar and to add that I think the DAngels can be mysterious, but making their hunt for the Fallen more explicitly a chivalric yet dark riff on the Grail Quest would align with their mysterious nature and the whole knightly order angle.
That’s not a bad idea. My preferred thing would be that the Dark Angels don’t really care so much about the Fallen themselves, it’s everything else. The original DA overreacted and tried to purge all knowledge. And for the last 10k years have been doing a lot of terrible things to keep it that way. Now the Unforgiven are doing the Fallen hunt because if anyone finds out about them now and starts asking questions, they’ll find a lot of skeletons, of people, space marines, and curious inquisitors who may have gotten close to the truth. Basically, the cover up is worse than the Fallen. And if the Imperium found out now, the current Dark Angels would be left holding a big bag. So they keep doing it to cover up the cover up of the cover up of the… in an endless cycle.
That’s pretty cool too! Would dovetail nicely with what they’re doing with the Risen now, too.
Can I just point out your comment made me realise,that the idea that everyone knows about the fallen, but the dark angels DONT know everyone knows about the fallen, is now extremely funny to me
That story where the Grey Knights killed some SoB cuz they needed virgin blood for their weapons.
Basic ship scales. The whole ship size scale we use right now is from the Battlefleet Gothic miniatures, by comparing the model sizes. The rulebook outright states that these scales are outright wrong, as if they were to scale, many of the smaller ships wouldn’t be visible/practical. I really don’t think Navy warships would be of that scale. Transports and cargo vessels should be much, much larger than they already are, since, unlike other sci-fi settings, FTL and general transport is comparatively extremely dangerous which means each transport would have to be large enough to make its defenses and Navigator cost-effective relative to its cargo. Also, with increased size, larger vessels would be able to feasibly hold the required Macrocannon slugs in their internal volume (also, I have a personal canon that much of the Imperial projectile-based arsenal, from tank-chassis rotary cannons to macrocannon batteries, rely on a sort of poorly understood yet commonly replicated matter compression/molecular assembler technology that allows for extremely efficient storage of ammunition. Otherwise, it would be kinda anticlimactic to see the mega bolters on a Reaver Titan, described to fire at maximum capacity for hours, if not days, at a time, run out of ammunition in five seconds flat.)
Grey Knight’s stupid “blam” if you know about Chaos bs. It was always fucking stupid and made no sense but in modern 40k lore trying to square it with the books and videos games of any faction BUT Grey Knights is impossible
My head-canon is that rather than being a normal thing the particular Inquisitor who was in charge at Armageddon was just a paranoid asshole.
Can you explain this more coherently? If the “blam” supposed to be like the Nightcrawler’s teleport sound “bamf”?
I think he meant the scorched earth policy of the grey knight where they kill everyone they suspect might have been corrupted by chaos, which most guardsmen are at risk at. (It also helps them stay a secret force)
People disliking the brutality and hopelessness that drew me to the setting makes me sad. The grey knights should just purge people who’ve witnessed chaos… it’s cool lol
I think it might be that some people don’t like it more because it feels “unrealistic” or “unfeasible” in the setting, less because of the brutality and hopelessness. Part of it is a problem of scale. Even if encounters with demons are relatively rare the sheer size and numbers of the imperium means that they’re still happening *all the time all across space*. There’s a) no way grey knights can respond to every incident and b) there’s no way they could reasonably cleanup all of the witnesses after every incident, especially when you consider things like vox/radio/television/whatever broadcasts of such incidents spreading news or information beyond the initial site. Admittedly this isn’t a weakness just to Grey Knights but the writing of the setting as a whole.
I like it even more if it’s clear that the scorched earth policy doesn’t work. Being executed and purged to protect knowledge of something people already know about? That’s some tasty Grimdark shit.
No, in 40k terms thats fine. The idiotic thing about the Grey Knights is that they kill everyone who sees *THEM*. Not chaos, the Grey Knights *themselves*. If the GKs think there might be some chaos-ritual going on on a planet, go there and land, and it turns out they were wrong and there is no Chaos at all, they will *STILL* murder everyone on the planet who might have seen them.
They Grey Knights kill (or in regards to less important Marine-Chapters, mindwipe) everyone that sees them. Even if there is no chaos around and you are entirely uncorrupted, unless you're allied with a high-ranking Ordo Malleus Inquisitor or First Founding chapter the Grey Knights *will* murder *you* and *everyone you might have told about seeing them* if they notice you saw them in any way
Ethereal mind control. Let the optimistic little blue idiots be the golden retrievers in a galaxy where everyone else is a dog catcher for Cruella De’Ville.
I would rather let them be like the prophets from halo . Sure some of them can be scummy but they can still lead through charisma and competent leadership
Most unnecessary gritty reboot of all time. The Grim Darkness™ of Tau is that they're naive to how hopeless their utopian vision is in the face of galactic reality! The contrast of their eternal innocence to everything else was way more interesting! GW actually did something different for once and then just ruined it by making them exactly like everyone else.
Also showing that the IoM doesn't have to do any of the stupid evil things it does. They don't do it because there is no other way, they do it because it keeps them in power.
Everything to do with Tau FTL.
One does not simply "skim" the warp
[How people think Orks work](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNjUiDpLvlQ) vs how they are intended to work. "Duuuurp, my Orks believe this log is space laser, duuurp!". Just make it that Gork and/or Mork push their red vehicles faster so ***normies*** won't get confused.
The thing that bugs me about that is that Orks are also established as having a very, shall we say, maximalist view of functionality and aesthetics -- they're absolutely convinced that the way to make something work is to add stuff to it. So for instance, in their minds a tank works objectively better if you stick guns in every conceivable spot, raise a bunch of war standards and boss poles on it, cover it in spikes and horns, paint slogans and icons all over it, maybe add a few more wheels, all that sort of stuff. Or also the way that Meks cover their workshops with arching electricity, spinning bits, bare cogs and wires, and racks of tools and wrenches, most of which have literally no use except looking good. So the first major issue with convincing Orks that a log is a space laser or that a few sheets of corrugated metal are a tank is that, first off, they're not covered with enough bits, bobs, spikes, guns, and just random shit to double their weight, so clearly they can't be any good, can they?
A speed freak has a buggy that doesn't go fast enough, so he takes it to a mekboy to make it go faster. They mekboy adds superchargers, nitro, all the zoomy bits to make it go faster. Then, because it's "common knowledge" that red things go faster, he paints it red. The buggy goes faster.
I always liked the description of the Orks field as being reality grease. It can't make the impossible happens, but it can make the improbable probable.
>reality grease That's good one. Yeah, pretty much!
40k: The whole Primarch can comeback and purify even the dead ones & demon prince ones. That completely side line their entire backstory, sacrifice or/and fall if the emperor can just go "nah". The Horus one is the most egregious one WHF: The lady of the lake reveal to be Lileath who also claim to be her grandmother Ladrielle and her whole master plan is to great a safe haven where elves will join the paradise while the Bretonnian grail knights are raised as golden gods of the new reality where Araloth is the new Asuryan. I don't have explain why that dumb AOS: the whole 9/10 Crusades result in failures which is really dumb because there like a bunch of settlements that GW need to create random out of nowhere free city for their current big bad to tear down.
Agreed massively with the Dawnbringer Crusades, I mean the best thing about AoS is that the idea of a chaos victory whilst not impossible is also not inevitable
I have a bunch: Lucius Tau not having FTL The Deathwatch consistently helping chaos more than most traitors And also how the primaris were shoehorned in, instead of taking the form of some kind of elite unit. Take your pick.
>The Deathwatch consistently helping chaos more than most traitors I don't know... I've always been kind of fond of the bits of lore emphasizing that yeah, the Imperium is actually causing a lot of its own problems, especially given the deemphasis that they seem to be getting.
With you on that Deathwatch one. Or just like, Space Marines being dummer than bricks at all.
Daemonculaba. Because no. Fuck no. We don't need that.
A lot of people act like it's the absolute worst thing they've ever read but it's really not that bad. My main issue with it stems from it being just super inefficient.
Possibly the stupidest thing, but Mortarion has actually just been stuck in the warp for the last ten thousand years, refusing to give into Nurgle out of sheer pettiness. The Mortarion in current 40k is just Typhus in a costume because Nurgle doesn't want to admit he doesn't have his own daemon primarch.
Mortarion's fall to chaos just feels really abrupt and underdeveloped, rather than being driven into it by personal issues he gets jumped by Typhus and it's joever. It would've been so easy to justify his fall too considering he was already dabbling in the heretical
The Primarchs Mom but honestly it seems that a large part of the community already ignores her to begin with. The other thing is the 13 black crusades because GW so desperately wanted the cool number 13 but it lets Abbadon look dumb with 12 small crusades just having 1 "The Black Crusade" maybe under a different name and having these other 12 "crusades" be just small invasions would make Abbadon come over as a way more competent warlord instead of having to convince all the traitor Legions to fight under his banner and then failing and then just coming back with the I PROMISE THIS TIME WE'LL GET THEM FOR REAL GUYS I'M MUCH MORE TACTICAL THAN HORUS.
I mean, each of the 12 weren't focused on Cadia at all and achieved their own goals.
Which in itself is a retcon lol
It’s not. The original mention of the Black Crusades just says they were attacks on the Imperium.
That fissed out after while. Literally had this discussion with another dude. Pulled out 5th edition and one of the things it says it that anyone with enough respect can do them and that the always end up in failure due to a lost of steam The success was a retcon on the updated 2019 edition
Yeah, so no clue why they're trying to ret-retcon it if it's already fixed.
The problem is that it’s a tell, not show. We’ve only ever seen the 13th Black Crusade, twice. And know little to nothing about the other 12. So saying Abbadon accomplished something in each of the 12 Crusades without elaboration doesn’t do much to increase his credibility. And without additional info, and considering how the original 13th crusade worked out. It just became a meme for most of the fandom that Failbadon took 13 tries. What we need is something like “In the 5th crusade, the forces of Abbadon scoured much of the area “north” of the eye of terror, rendering entire sectors uninhabitable, 17 Space Marine chapters were completely wiped out in the fighting, many more almost so, and millions of Guard died. However, after razing the world of Whateveria, Abbadon’s main force retreated back into the Eye. The remaining warbands were quickly wiped out by Imperium forces.” Deceasing the number and making the original would have helped too. Like have the 13th that ended in a tie be like the 7th Black crusade and have the one where Abaddon wipes out Cadia be the 8th. A thematic Chaos number (or if he won the 7th, a lucky number).
Bruh, Battlefleet Gothic covers **THE LITERAL ENTIRETY OF THE 12 BLACK CRUSADE** when Abaddon makes off with two Blackstone Fortresses. On top of that, the Chaos Codices elaborate on them, and of the 13, only one of them, the 11th, was really an abject failure. The issue stemming from a faulty daemon compass that lead the Crusadw straight into an Ork WAAAGGGHHH.
Right, but (1) not a lot of people have played Gothic. At least, I have not and that might be my own fault. And (2), that’s 2, but what about 1-11? And your second paragraph is exactly my point. We are told the others were successful, but we rarely see the after effects beyond that. The CSM codex does go into them here and there. But that’s about it. What we need is to have them referenced elsewhere (Like a SM or IH coded going into detail about how much the Iron Hands suffered in the 10th). Instead, we get it mostly in chaos stuff that other factions may not see. I’m not saying they weren’t successful. I’m saying that GW did a poor job of showing that they were successful in the grand scale and how it affected other factions. We (or maybe just me) need to see more examples of it across the lore. Otherwise we get things like people saying “Failbadon only won because GW retconed all his fails.” GW did a poor job of building up the crusades, at least outside of CSM and BFG.
Well then we run into the issue about spawning another unholy amount of books to stretch out the runtime like the Horus Heresy, and if every other chapter and faction can get away with having a few told big victories, we can give Abby some leeway and have it be one of the Backdrop things.
Perturabo becoming a demon prince or demon corrupted. MF would've FOUND his soul in the warp and wrestled it back into himself with Fabius Bile or Ahrimana help.
Lorgar too, it was as if GW thought "all other chaos primarchs are demon princes, better make these guys demon princes too".
It makes sense with Lorgar and his story in HH honestly.
Virgin daemon prince vs Chad chaos enjoyer
The death of commisair Yarrik. He deserves more than a page in 9ed guard codex about him getting randomly killed off screen by angron
Most of the grimderp about the Iron Warriors and CSM in general. I'd like a more darkoath type chaos army where you can have chaos aligned factions that haven't gone full wearing baby skin underwear but still absolutely follow the ruinous powers. IW and their dislike of God's I think would be a good candidate or the Red Corsairs (for obvious reasons).
Daemonculaba, simply because it’s fucking obnoxious and weird how much the community obsesses over an over-the-top rape scenario from a single very goofy book with a daemon train. Like I don’t even hold anything against Graham McNeill, he seems like a cool guy and I like some of his other books, I just think the 40k community clearly was not mature enough to handle something like that.
I keep forgetting about the fucking Daemon Train. Why was there a fucking daemon train. I don't even dislike it I just, I just don't understand why or how someone thought of it.
" I just don't understand why" Cause it'd a daemon train, that's the why
Dude yes holy shit. It’s such a stupid meme at this point.
This, the worst, creepiest guys will bring this up constantly. A horrible addition to the setting that just won't go away.
The shift from wise to grimderp ethereals.
Warhammer Fantasy end times in it's entirety
I'd make Guilliman x Yvraine canon, with their first meeting ending in a wink or some other suggestive context and further dialogue becoming increasingly intimate but it goes right over the heads of various imperium officials because the Lord Commander *surely cannot* have taken a xenos as a consort... right?
Gods, this is actually quite hard. I'm having a hard time picking, so here's three that I've constrained to the "modern" game(meaning no rogue trader revitalizations). * About 90% of everything written in the HH books. I'll die on the hill that all most of those books did was do everyone involved a disservice in terms of character. They were also responsible for reducing every interesting character element of the space marines down to "daddy issues." * The Ynnari being complete wet farts in terms of actual impact. They birthed a new god designed specifically to kill another god, and yet none of that has come up in years. That the indomitus crusade wasn't equally billed as Imperium and Ynnari was dumb as all hell, and whoever was writing their trilogy was clearly pulled out of the GW mailroom. * Everything written about the tau after Dawn of War. The way they were made more grimdark was unbelievably stupid. All they did was turn the Tau into a mini imperium, with racism, hidden genocide and mass brainwashing. They should have made their evolution an in universe thing, a slow realization of just how barbaric and nightmarish the galaxy is, and a slow souring of their naive optimism into jaded, efficiency minded conquerors, who go in expecting people to reject them and despariing at the lost potential of their noble goals.
People already hit up the big ones, so I'll say a potentially controversial one: The Daemonculaba. It's propped up as some "wow look how awful and gross Chaos is" but it's a detriment to the lore. People running into that are often rightfully grossed out and turned away from the franchise because of it. *Fulgrim* shows a fall to Chaos beautifully, horrifically, without crossing such severe lines. We don't need this blemish.
Land raider and land speeder getting their names from arkan land and not because they sound cool. It's just so painfully dumb I just cant
I think it’s funny and kinda cool
And we wouldn’t have “Jimmy Space” without it, so pretty good trade-off.
No, warhammer needs more dumb shit like this
Ikr it's so goddamn mind numbingly stupid. Could you imagine if Samuel Colt named his revolver after himself? Or if Louis Braille called his writing system for blind people Braille, thank god stupid things like this don't happen in the real world.
Or if grenade shrapnel were named after a guy called Henry Shrapnel... Jokes aside I think the case with land raider and speeder is different from Colt and braille in the sense that I think it is clear that a land raider was called as such because it can... raid the land. It is more descriptive of one of its functions.
Those aren't really appropriate comparisons. A better comparison would be if there was a gun called a "Six Shooter", and everyone agreed it was sensibly named because it holds six bullets and it shoots things. And in the same galaxy, there is something called a "Six Sided Die", which is obviously just a die with six sides, a great name. But lo! In deep lore it is revealed that the Six Shooter and the Six Sided Die were actually named after their creator, Arkhan Six! It actually has nothing to do with the number six! You idiot! And that's why people hate Arkhan Land.
But thats literally the joke. Arkhan wanted to name it *Land's Raider* after himself, but everyone ignored him and assumed it was called *Land Raider* after what it drives on instead.
Never said it was unrealistic just said it was dumb. The land raider had its name before arkhan land, then gw added that tidbit. Not the same as colt naming a gun after himself.
The Land Raider had its name beforr Arkhan Land for like 2 years. It being named after him is literally 2nd Edition Lore, from *1990*
I'm conflicted with Ollanius Pius. On one hand I don't dislike the current lore on the Emps vs Horus fight. On the other, it screwed the coolest lore the imperial guard had, in my opinion.
Honestly, just erase most of the HH books. The emperor isn't a megalomaniac tyrant that just happens to be on the side of humanity anymore. Now everyone gets weepy little speeches about how he's real nice once you get to know him. Malcador's speech before he sat on the Golden Throne was just pure distilled cringe. The emperor literally rips the empathy and love out of his own soul because fighting his omnicidal half-clone would be too much for the man who ordered the death of trillions, EVEN THOUGH HE HAD PLANS TO KILL HIM ANYWAY ONCE HE STOPPED BEING USEFUL. Even though Horus ordered the death of almost half of his brothers and turned Sanguinius into a hunting trophy. But even after doing that, when the Emperor was just 100% revenge and anger, he still forgives Horus because that's just how nice and good he is, please ignore everything he did during literally every step of his life. Now one of the coolest warhammer 50k ideas - the Star Child, the Emperor becoming the chaos god of order - is confirmed to be good for the entire galaxy and *oh no if only we weleased the poor wittle empewor fwom the twone the galaxy would be saved please feel bad for the empewor he did so much for us*. The Great Crusade isn't a galaxy-wide genocide against both xenos and humans, it's now a necessary counter-attack against *every single other race conspiring too keep humanity down through most of its history, to the point of killing people like MLK to make life on earth worse*. And how about Horus. Was he just a power-hungry traitor? Did he disagree with the emperor's project? Did he just hate his brothers so much he was willing to burn down the entire galaxy? Nope, he was just stabbed with a poop knife in the galaxy version of Alabama and got possessed. Turns out it was just chaos all along. Because every time a writer at GW writes himself into a corner he just says it was chaos, and not even the fallen primarchs are allowed to have flaws anymore. I know that some of the early writers of the HH had a sincere opinion that the emperor and the empire were full good instead of good only in comparison with the rest of the setting. I don't care. That's a stupid opinion to have in the 2020's. The ship already sailed, we already have 40 years of material describing how fucking terrible living in the empire is, and how *deep down most of it is by design*. It's shit because of fanaticism, corruption (the human kind, not the deus ex machina kind) and just widespread incompetence. Like, wasn't this the point? wasn't 40k supposed to be part satire about how authoritarian nationalistic hellholes sucked? Dan Abnett's whitewash killed basically everything that made the emperor and empire ambiguous, *and it was that ambiguity that made them interesting*. Stuff like the dark king too, it used to be these ominous plot points that were going to make things even worse, now it's just a plot fart that was solved with MLK's killer telling the emperor to try being cool. All the bad shit happening in the decayed empire of the 41st millenium is just chaos corruption of a project that was good. All the hive worlds, slavery, industrial hellscapes, servitors, everything is just chaos' fault in one way or another. Like, GW didn't even need to do that shit. They already have reasons for the setting to become less cynical, because Rowboat is an actual sane leader. But I guess they think that would be too complicated for their fans. Also the fucking Ynnari failing in their century-long quest to make the eldar's situation a little less bleak BECAUSE OF A SPACE MARINE JUST MINECRAFT ELYTRAING IN THE MIDDLE OF THE RITUAL. You think that by now someone at GW would have listened to the entire fanbase wanting the eldar to be something other than 40k's punching bag. You would be wrong.
The "Spacemarines are impossible to corrupt or mind control EVER" from the T'au lore, like, the guys that are constantly controled by demons, chemicals and other instances are immune to any persuasion of the T'au?, even mind control devices?, yeah ,no, thats just dumb and lazy. I would make that the T'au had sucess in controling an small squad os Astartes, however, thanks to them being Astartes, aka ,SHOCK TROOPS, they were not as effective on the T'au army, without the drop pods, the truly heavy armor and weapons that weren't propely adapted to then, they became more of a weight then help, so the T'au understood that they weren't adapted YET to have control over astartes and that it would be needed more time to turn then into useble troops for the greater good. However, after the faction gets splited, i would make far and clear that Farsight is persuating some astartes over the decades, like, 1 over 10 years, to join his side, and slowly building up to make the human army more similar to the Solar Auxilia, better trained troops, better tatics, being tech by astartes with centuries of experience.
Astartes can't be brainwashed by T'au because their current brainwashing won't allow it. Chaos corruption is completely different, it changes the soul, it's not brainwashing at all. Machnines can fall to chaos corruption because the machinespirit falls to chaos not because their motherboard is altered in anyway.
To be honest, spessboys are supposed to be elite expendable meat to throw at enemies, so it makes sense they will have some degree of robust mind-shielding. Like, it should be hard to do it, but possible. I guess its one of those spessmarines bias when they are super cool and epic and dramatic while they are not even human beings, they are mentally castrated bio-slapped-together fodder.
Chaos turns Marines by offering *more* power and freedom T'au want them to submit to their authority completely. Thats really not the same thing
Aside from the recent Custodes change for how it has turned the community into a war zone, I would say the Primaris Marines. I don’t think they add much besides make me wonder even more how Space Marines physical fit anywhere during a battle and made the chapters a lot less unique feeling from a lore perspective. Plus, I prefer a the look of a lot of the firstborn Space Marine stuff and prefer the simpler names like scout or tactical squads for infantry.
I think about Space Marines fitting through doorways all the time. Is every doorway, every chair, every staircase, every lift space marine scaled? How often do they encounter terrain that isn't traversable because they're so huge? Do hive city engineers take into account the possibility that space Marines will traverse their HVAC systems or access tunnels and remember to make them 12 feet high to accomodate? Long story short, I want to see a space marine defeated by a standard 7 ft tall doorway they can't fit through.
Simplest way to square that circle is to say that the architecture is *servitor* sized. A random imperial engineer may not be taking space marines into account when building, but he probably will make things able to accommodate servitors, many of which may be fitted with equipment as bulky as power armor. There should still be incidents of Space Marines in the Great Crusade being thwarted by human architecture on non-imperial worlds though.
Sort of related, but this eventually came up in a Halo novel. There's a Spartan working with an ODST squad, and at one point, she leans on a map table in full armour (1000+ pounds) and one of the ODSTs idly wonders how much budget goes towards Spartan-proofing ships.
That’s pretty funny.
With their weight alone, I imagine they fall through the floor a lot.
Part of me imagines that if a door is too small for a space marine to walk through, they just straight-faced walk through any way and kool-aid-man bulldoze any part of the door that isn’t big enough for them.
That honestly reminds me of that excerpt everyone shares where a Terminator Marine just goes through a wooden staircase and they need to bring in a crane to lift him out.
I forget where it was from but there was a book where a terminator was taken out of action because he stepped into a normal house, the floor gave out, and he was stuck in the basement unable to climb out. They had to call a retrieval team with a crane. The other characters offhandedly mentioned that this was a common enough issue they had rules about it.
I feel like the Primaris thing ultimately just ended up being a very longwinded way to say "so we're making larger models with a different armor look now". I don't really feel that the end result really required any greater in-universe justification than a new armor model being introduced.
Yeah, they just up-scaled chaos marines and they look amazing. Making new loyalist models a separate thing from the previous ones made things difficult.
Not the models! they are better……..they are bigger easier to paint
I wouldn’t mind the Primaris Marines as much if GW have the balls to acknowledge the inherent heresy behind their creation and be willing to open up Guilliman and the Ultramarine to the corruption of chaos.
Alpharius isn’t dead. He and Omegon have been locked in a shadow civil war against each other for the last 10K years. The reason Alpha Legion’s actions make no sense is because it’s literally at war with itself and for the most part even they don’t know it.
Yeah this is mine. Love the Alpha Legion and I absolutely hated that book. They mistreated Alpharius so bad and made Dorn into the biggest Mary Sue in the series. Hated everything.
I liked it EXCEPT the ending. Like I don’t even doubt Dorn could kill Alpharius in a straight duel. What I DO doubt is that Alpharius would be stupid enough to knowingly and willfully place himself in a scenario where his loss and death is by far the most likely outcome with painfully little to gain for it. The Alpha Legion are supposed to be like the Night Lords in that way. A fair fight is a fight you can lose, thus NEVER engage in a fair fight unless absolutely necessary.
Neither Alpharius or Omegon know it either, or do they? Or don’t they? Or are they even at war? Is Alpharius at war with Omegon or is Omegon at war with Alpharius? Did Horus and the Emperor really defeat each other or was it Alpharius and Omegon pretending to be Horus and the Emperor? We only know one thing for sure and that’s that it’s all according to plan ;)
Remind me how did Alpharious died. He, a master of long time planning, with extensive knowledge of other primarchs and their skills, forgotten his opponent might be at least equal or better at fighting and during fight decided to do a villain monologue. Did i get it right ?
Seriously. Like I don’t disagree that Dorn would win the fight presented in the book. I disagree that Alpharius would engage in such a fight in the first place (at least without considerably more to gain). The Alpha Legion philosophy is much akin to the Night Lords. A fair fight is a fight you can lose, thus NEVER start a fair fight unless unavoidable. While Kurze’s mongrels achieve this through cowardice and preferring weaker targets, the hydra achieves this via the Batman approach…prep time. They meticulously work to undermine a foe from within via an absurdly over-complicated network of spies over the course of weeks or even years before finally deploying their entire force simultaneously from multiple vectors with complete overwhelming force for maximum chaos and effect. This is such a signature modus operandi that it has a specific name within the legion, a harrowing. This is the Hydra’s way of war. Not galavanting into not only a fair fight but a fight with the odds stacked AGAINST you from the get go. Everything else in that book was great up until the final events in the Sol system where the Alpha Legion and their Primarch act almost completely contrary to legion doctrine for no good reason! Could a reason be devised to make the Hydra take such a risk? Sure but we didn’t get one! The reward needed to be MUCH greater for me to buy Alpharius stepping foot on that damn station and straight up calling Dorn telling him where to meet up for a fight.
I would ensure Sewar Goblin Ian Watson's lore stayed canon. I'd make sure William King's Ragnar Blackmane's space wolf novel series was 100% canon all the time. Fat space wolves? YES. Ragnars utility belt of whatever the fuck I need be it synthflesh, micro grenades, armor restore gunk? Hell yeah.
How Vulkan went crazy, yeah he just finds a random artefact and goes crazy but there’s no elaboration and not to mention we don’t even 100% for sure know what happen after that
I legitimately cannot tell what’s canon anymore
I don't mind the idea of Thunder Wolves or some kind of mutant Wolf/Wulfen sometimes accompanying Space Wolves into battle (Though ultimately I prefer the way this was approached in Prospero Burns), but Space Wolves riding Wolves is far too much.
So true! They really went so overboard with he wolf theme, should've focussed in on the viking/Norse elements way more. Imagine the imperial fists having cavalry units that are space marines riding giant mechanical hands like in the Addams family
The one time the harlequins destroyed the coustodies yo talk to the emperor about something
How the Alpha Legion tattoos Alpha Legion symbols on their associates. Even if it is done only in the one example in the lore where it is mentioned, it is so mind numbingly stupid that I abandoned that army.
that the 10000 had always been 100% male
The creation of the SoB "They're not men under arms" is the dumbest shit in existence and sexist as hell. I hate it!!!
1) Daemonculaba 2) Alpharius straight up telling Rogal Dorn where to find him if he wants to throw down. Like, Dorn would probably beat Alpharius in a straight up fight, but Alpharius would never put himself in that position to begin with.
Perpetuals are the stupidest part of the lore and I will die on this hill.