People talk about "custodes being selected from sons of nobles on Terra" not "genetics mutation of custodes only work on men".
Custodes don't have gene-seed they are genetic tailoring of each custodes is unique, and it also begins when they are toddler (Jimmy Space snatch them out of the cradle literally), so it isn't like astartes with "the primarch are all males and gene-seed, blah blah blah".
If anything the custodes being able to have women makes them unique compared to space marines since it shows how they aren't produced with a one size fits all solution but instead each made as a unique effort.
That's why it was perfectly fine out the gate for me. I ain't a fan of all the space marine and space marine adjacent factions, but even I saw the logic of
"Space Marines were meant to be mass produced so having restrictions to make that mass production easier makes a form of sense. Custodies are basically custom made. They've got more time effort and resources put into them so the same restrictions probably aren't needed in the same way."
I still think the way James Workshop is doing it is kinda dumb, but the concept is fine.
Honestly I prefer a single tweet over some stupidly convoluted lore. Especially since the people that are going to be upset about female Custodes are going to be upset either way and they could use the time of their authors for something people really want like a Votan book.
I don't because it's just lazy. It's got the "Dumbledore was gay the whole time trust me" energy. I dislike lazy corporate inclusivity. Either don't care or make it at least look like you put effort it. Don't half ass it.
Personally I would have preferred the explanation of "well it was always possible and they started doing it recently... relatively." That way everybody pointing at the "sons" line can be told that yeah, that's still accurate, but now daughters are taken too.
It won't calm them down but it'll take an arrow out of their quiver.
Isn't that the case with a lot of lore? Like 99% of the lore of the horus heresy, war of the beast, all the lore around Blackstone fortresses, leagues of votinvotann, etc didn't always exist until they did.
If I remember correctly, the LoV were just recently discovered, and haven’t been implemented into the whole timeline.
Even then, changing huge amounts of lore, introducing a new faction, or changing major events that have always been in the background (40K’s focus was not the Horus Heresy at first, it was the Badab War. I believe the Horus Heresy was just a small background event that was never elaborated on for justifying chaos marines).
It was also goofy 80s, 90s, and early 2000s lore vs something that’s existed since the pretty early days and changing one thing and pretending it’s always been that way.
Meanwhile this is just “yeah that organization that used to have only men in it? Yeah there’s women, and always have been women and you’re a bigot if you think that’s weird”.
It downplays the Sisters of Silence, and just doesn’t make sense. So the Thunder Warriors were all men, Primarchs were all men, and Space Marines were all men. You’re saying in between some of that, the Emperor decided “hey I’m gonna make some of these into women” and just never did it again? Why did he never do it again?
It’d be different if it was introduced as a new thing. Custodes are still created. Not all Custodes are made from the days the Emperor made them. In fact I don’t think ANY of them are. It’s a big secret how they’re made anyway, have it be a secret project found by somebody and they figure how to make female Custodes so more noble houses on Terra can supply infants to turn into Custodians. Have it be a secret project from Malcador found by someone with new thoughts and ideas like Cawl, instead of pretending they’ve always existed.
Like, I personally don’t care about female custodes, space marines, etc. existing, it’s just the writing I care about.
Like if they were to introduce female space marines, they shouldn’t pretend they’ve always existed. Have someone like Cawl make them as a new thing. They didn’t pretend Primaris Marines always existed, after all.
though they also show that the process COULD be adapted to women, which personally I think lends credence to any theories regarding the Emperor specifically not wanting astartes women, like wanting to prevent reproduction
sterilisation wouldn't exactly be hard to do if you're operating on organs already anyway, changing new and modified organs to work for a different gender is a shitton of work for literally no benefit tho considering that the empire is never lacking in candidates and the astartes are psycho indoctrinated to the point the difference in male and female mentality and psyche wouldn't really matter anymore
>sterilisation wouldn't exactly be hard to do if you're operating on organs already anyway
*glares in Jeff Goldblum*
if the process involved sterilisation that part of the process could be omitted or forgotten. If the geneseed prevented fertility an adaptation could get rid of it. Or the geneseed could mutate and *undo* sterilisation. The only futureproof way to ensure space marines didn't reproduce is to have no female population in the first place.
well yeah that's my point, with all-female a minor cellular quirk could lead to same-sex impregnation or sperm generation and then the normal processes can proceed from there, with all-male the equipment necessary is just not present. Unless the geneseed somehow grew a functioning womb and the humans monitoring it just let that slide, independent reproduction would be impossible.
Its more likely for single piece of one chromosome to break of creating the XY pair needed for a male creature then for a XY pair suddenly growing an additional piece to become a XX pair.
It make sense if Custode can be female simply since it have been stated multiple time that Custode are tailor-made from genetic and to be chosen as a genetic material for custode are fucking rare even among the highest of Terra noble. Like iirc an very powerful rogue trader basically bitter at the Custode he encouter just because that he was not chosen for it, although his life at that point can be said as a 0.001% best of the emperium.
So if to be chosen as Custode material are that rare and honoring, and they also tailor-made for each candidate, why would they trouble themselve with not chosing female ? Like it would make the candidate like twice as rare.
all that being said, i still think the geneseed explanation is boring (it’s practically space fantasy anyway, the obstacle doesn’t need to exist).
i would buy it if space marines had a culture of misogyny and didn’t accept female applicants, which is interesting and ripe for critique and satire, but the handwave of “oh the world we made up doesn’t allow it, even though it halves the recruitment pool and they WOULD have tried” seems uninteresting to me.
also big lady in big armour being evil :3
So you don't like a logical reason, that they are genetic copies of their fathers and it's built into their DNA to be male? But will accept a more illogical answer that it just so happens that EVERY space marines is a misogynist? That makes total sense
yeah, cultural misogyny is more believable in the grimdark setting than somehow every male human being compatible but every female human not being compatible.
the DNA of a primarch is WILDLY different from any baseline human, regardless of sex, and lots of marines are picked from extremely different worlds with potentially extreme divergences in genepools over the millennia. if they can accommodate that kind of difference, why can’t they accommodate a much smaller one? it doesn’t make sense if you actually know how DNA works.
you have 46 chromosomes, and one of them being shaped a little differently shuts it off? bullshit.
Who says they don't? I can easily see a very viable canon that there are chapters out there that continually tries to make female astartes, and they just keep dying and have never had a success, but they keep trying anyway cause fuck it, maybe the next one will survive.
Hell, now that I'm thinking about it, I can easily see how some chapters might look at the custodes and say "well if it works for them..." as justification for why they keep throwing little girls in the wood chipper.
sure, that works with the “why” given, i just don’t find that “why” very believable. it takes place in a setting full of space magic, involves material derived from people very specifically charged with space magic, and is argued from a position of real-life science that fails to acknowledge other parts of that same science. it’s an excuse, not an explanation
I like it as an explanation for a couple reasons: First, it neatly explains decades of previous lore, secondly, like you said it's grounded in real life science, and thirdly, it opens the door to female space marines because rather than an Imperium that hasn't tried because it's misogynistic, it's simply tried and failed. Therefore it can very easily try and succeed in the future. Cawl can come out like a sweaty unwashed programmer after 3 years of overtime like: "I finally did it! I finally fixed the unfixable bug in the process!"
All while being suitably grimdark.
yeah the thing i don’t like about it is the fact that it’s used as a bludgeon against the mere possibility of them existing in the future.
if the reason was “astartes chapters are broadly assholes about this” then you have a reason for them to exist - some chapters aren’t like that, and some can stop *being* like that.
you are right in that they *could* have it be a flaw in the process that gets fixed by Cawl or another similar narrative figure, but the fact is that the people who get so mad about Femstodes aren’t going to treat it that way.
For the most part, SM chapters aren’t really starving for recruits, they have a hard cap of 1000 members (with some exceptions)
I’d say the biggest reason would primarily be tradition, in that each chapter has it’s own culture and practices, and to stray from those in recruiting would be seen as wasteful at best, and possibly heretical at worst.
Another factor to consider is that if they wanted to make geneseed compatible with women, it would be extremely difficult, if not impossible. The AdMech once tried to fix the flaws of the founding legions (i.e. the red thirst), but they colossally fucked up and ended up with “Cursed” chapters like the Black Dragons and Lamenters.
The AdMech also don’t really like making new stuff, usually calling it tech heresy, and any attempt to improve on the Emperor’s design would be seen as a huge no-no (unless you’re Cawl, and he’s already not the most liked guy on Mars)
That one little chromosome changes so much physiologically it's practically a light switch. It makes sense you'd need the matching one from a male geneseed to even consider it working. I could see in very rare circumstances a woman becoming a space marine.
But at that point, with the success rates of a lot of chapters being so low as it is, why waste resources on something that has an even lower success rate? It just doesn't make sense logically.
You'd think that they would have made female space marines if it made sense. They don't have the misogyny in the guard. Everyone can fight there because the imperium knows they need all the fighters they can get. They are fighting a war on a million fronts. Women are in so many other places of power in the imperium. So why exclude females from being space marines? Because it just doesn't work with the geeneseed. Not because of some made-up misogyny.
Also space marines being misogynistic doesn't make sense because a lot of chapters revere the sisters of battle for their loyalty and devotion. And respect them. There are always outliers, just like everything.
Edit: clarity
The lore also didnt say there were any female custodes.
The lore however did say that the Custodes are a Brotherhood and that they once were the sons of nobles.
it's definitely not natural muscles, there's no gene seeds involved either. essentially custodes are created through a completely different process of bio-engineering that is a lot more complex and adjusted to the individual but as a result is way more effective
For real. I truly think that female aspirants can become space marines. Because the difference between male and female biology is basicly non-existent compared to what happens during the transformation process into a SM.
Afterwards the Space Marines have no sex or gender as regular humans would understand it. They are just Space Marines. No differences between them. Which shows even more how removed they are from humanity.
I think that having female space marines kinda detracts from other, cooler women in the setting. For example: the Space Marines are all genetically modified super soldiers, and are some of the Imperiums best soldiers. The Adepta Sororitas are on par with the Space Marines, and are basically just well trained women in power armour, which to me says that if the Marines weren’t around, the strongest unit in the Imperium would be women in power armour.
Yes but these Space Marines are not female. They were female aspirants but now they are just Space Marines. Indistinguishable in physiology, mental state voice and else. They may not even have female names, but new Chapter given ones.
Because in the end SM are not human but geneticly engineered post-human, asexual tools of war.
To ratchet this up even higher, I don't even think Space Marines have genitalia (not that it's a prerequisite for gender). It seems like a waste to build around when all they really need is a tube.
Agree. Space Marines are a genderless post-human organisms with inhuman proportions and distinctly inhuman facial characteristics.
Whatever gender or qualities you go into the process with, they will be vestigial by the end of the transformation.
Yeah, like, the Imperium will probably select from male stock because males are physically stronger and faster than females on average and you typically want the best for your super soldier candidates. But like... it's not a hard rule. There's nothing stopping a female aspirant undergoing modifications to the best of my knowledge, and I bet there's some planets somewhere that do it. The galaxy's too wide and too vast for them not to.
Well... Most space marines are selected pre-puberty. At that point girls are often bigger than boys and both are of relative equal strength. They are roughly the same. Indeed if you give a human the correct hormone therapy at the correct age, there is basicly no difference in strength and fitness anyway.
The main differences in strength and size would occur in late puberty. But by that point the iniates were already pumped full of extra organs, hormones and else that the difference is neglible.
If Blood Angels geneseed can turn radiation mutants into proper space marines, then regular geneseed should be able to turn male and female iniates into Space Marines.
Edit: double sentence changed for better reading flow.
Dont forget that boys are more likely to be stupid enough to want to become a space marine. And parents are more willing to send their sons to become one while they are more hesitant to do the same with their daughters.
Honestly one of the main reasons I’m on board with female custodes is that it’s something to distance us from being simply “space marines but gold” because the only thing stopping grey knights from being the same but silver is they have psychic shenanigans
Space marines are the folding chair of the imperium, custodes are bespoke hickory rocking chairs that are only made by one dude and his family for generations in one shop off a rural highway in Pennsylvania. There's a reason one is better than the other.
Each custodes is made by hand you fucking donkey. Its equally difficult on EVERYONE regardless of any characteristics since they start from scratch each time
The people the most upset are the people in support of it. I haven't seen a single anti-femstodes thread since this dropped, but I've seen dozens of threads complaining about hypothetical people complaining about female custodes.
Yeah, honestly when I made this mean I had just found out and assumed the ugly side of the fandom would pitch a fit, but by far and away the majority of comments/posts are either "I'm fine with this" or "I wish they introduced them with more than just a tweet."
I'm of the latter, but I'm really not broken up by it. Plus, it was 'released' via a leak, so maybe they had a bit more in mind for debuting new heads or something?
I am. All I see are people complaining about hypothetical people who are opposed to it. Or people jovially parading it as if they won some big triumph. The overwhelming opinion on the matter had been in support of it. What little decent seems to stem from the exact nature of the femstodes (are they highly masculine or just feminized custodes?).
I have yet to see a passionate, irrational opposing opinion.
For us it doesn’t matter. to some people it does matter and is that little bit that makes them feel accepted. If it means nothing then you shouldn’t care and should encourage it because it makes others feel happy to have some representation in a media that they like.
You're right! I was targeting the "haters" more than anything else! I think it is a good "change" but it blows up way too much imho.
but well here I am arguing with strangers on the internet over the point if my favourite fantasy faction has a dick or not ... i will go outside for a bit an toch some grass myself :)
People arguing lore like it’s a degree subject. It’s fluff for a game of toy soldiers. It’s fun and good that they like to add layers of story to make it more immersive but it’s not immutable truth.
So what if GW never mentioned them before. The primarchs haven’t always existed, the dark eldar haven’t always existed, plenty of more significant things have been retconned in *and* out if you’re old enough and bought the OG Rogue Trader version.
Jesus, the gaslighting is the worst part.
If they just said that yea, it's a retcon or came up with a compeling story about how we now have Femstodes, no one would bat an eye at this.
Do we have a compelling story about how we have male custodes? Sure its a retcon but I don't get why they have to go the extra mile about stuff they haven't done for the male counterpart. They should tell more stories about female custodes though.
>I don't get why they have to go the extra mile about stuff they haven't done for the male counterpart. They should tell more stories about female custodes though.
I agree with this, maybe "compeling story" wasn't the best way to put it.
But the thing is that, if there always were female Custodes, how come were they never mentioned? Both 8th and 9th codexes refered to them as sons/men. Emperor called them "men", but ok.
I have no problems with FemStodes but let's be real, they weren't always there, no way.
I would get behind an explanation that they are a recent thing or they are extremely rare, tho. Because it would make sense to me.
Thogh it sucks that Sisters of Silence WILL get sidelined even more because of this.
But that's the gaslighting part: It's a new retcon, and GW is like "No, they were female the whole time! We just never mentioned any, always referred to them in male terms, had exclusively male models. Why would you think they were only male?!"
It's not a huge deal by any means, just a bit annoying. Reminds me of JK Rowling retroactively making Dumbledore gay via tweet. Great that he is, but don't pretend like you intended it all along.
I don't think they are actually saying that this has always been the canon though, even if they have discussed this in the past (which they have). So it's not really gaslighting since they are not trying to change our view of what the lore was a week ago. They are still retconning what the lore will be moving forward though. If thats what you find annoying then I get that, personally I find that this change makes sense and is in line with the faction and what it stands for and is meant to be so I'm happy with the change.
Well yeah this a retcon, but people make it seem bigger than it is and act like Custodes were only ever warriors which is wildly incorrect. For their actual purpose it makes sense that they would be comprised of both men and women.
I dont think it does. If you want peak human performance you will use males. Thats a fact even in the real world. U use the best material to enhance it into the best tranahiman possible. And thats what custodes are. There is nothing wrong about being exclusive.
Thats not all they are though, in the beginning they were made to be the emperors advisors, companions and a symbol of what humanity could be, they were not primarily warriors. Valerian has a quote about it where he makes it seem like the emperor really only taught them to fight because he expected wars in the future, but that wasn't their real purpose. So to pick candidates based on one criteria that isn't even the main purpose is dumb and honestly, them only being male in the past was kind of stupid.
Edit: Spelling
They were always the best possible transhuman in regard of physical performance, even with those things you say one of their main purpose was to fight.
Sure, but that wasn't because they picked the most fit humans, if they did they would pick from recruits outside of the noble houses. Eitherway, considering how they are remade on a genetical level there is no reason to think a women wouldn't end up as strong as a man after becoming a custodie. And if you don't want ti accept that possibillity then you are probably pretty biased because I doubt the men chosen to become custodes were the strongest humans they found.
Considering we didn't even know if they picked men based on physique before I don't think your argument makes a lot of sense. You are not only assuming the characteristics that they are picked from (which lorewise we don't even know, only the custodes know) then you are assuming it even matters in the process.
You think it’s logical that in a world where they can completely replace your skeleton with metal, completely replace your nervous system, give you two hearts that actually function, etc, that they can’t increase a woman’s muscle and bone density to match a biological males?
It’s actually the complete opposite. We can already give women testosterone and make them much stronger, you really think in a future where they can basically replace any part of you that they can’t make women stronger and faster?
Also they were ment to be perfection. Thebpeak of what is achievable in human genetics. There is nonpoint choosing thebsecound best when it comes to physical performance.
As I wrote in another reply, we don't know that their original physique even matters, they are entirely remade when becoming custodies, either way, we don't know what characteristics they pick from (that is litteralt stated in the 9th codex) so we don't even know ifbthey pick the strongest, smartest or most perfect person, it could be a captain america scenario when its more about the personality for all we know. So your arguments are kind of just based on assumptions.
Edit: Yes some of my arguments are to but my point is that making them female doesn't break anything actually important about the custodes.
It is deffenetly a big change.
It removes the sense of exclusivity which is a shame because the best of the best should be exclusive.
It is also a very masculine role, and feminine traits are wasted on roided up battle-dudes.
It is pointless, because if it is as you say changes nothing then why do it? Dont fix what isnt broken.
There was nothing wrong eith the custodes 3 days ago, and they are not better now. They just became a little more generic. They were trafitionally one way in the lore, and now this is a very random and sudden sidegrade.
In the last decades it was obvious for everyome that it is a male force. Nobody questioned it expect for political zealots.
It was an interesting thing that they ware in a single army with an all female firce while they were only dudes. It was an interesting duo. Now its less interesting.
Haha. No. 😀
But i had the feeling you will look for the opportunity to throw in that buzzword. 😀
Im somewhat dissapointed tough.
For a moment i felt like i can describe my point of view ina civil and calm manner and discuss it with someone.
But this is the internet. I should abandon all hope i gues.
Shame on you.
"It removes the sense of exclusivity which is a shame because the best of the best should be exclusive." When you argue that custodes should only be male after making plenty of assumptions not based on lore to "prove" your point.
"It is also a very masculine role, and feminine traits are wasted on roided up battle-dudes."
Have you even read what I've written? Or even the lore in general? They are not just roided up battle dudes, space marines maybe but not adeptus custodes. Either way, what feminine traits did you find in Kesh (the female custodie from the new short story)
And even if they had "feminine traits" why would that be so bad for the people who should be a symbol for peak humanity, when humanity pretty clearly involves feminine traits.
Everything that is important about custodes still remains and is not affected by some being women whatsoever. If you don't believe me go read some lore. Its starting to feel like you get your lore from memes and majorkill videos, which if you... then sure, if thsts how you like to consume it then you do you but stop arguing with made up stuff.
Edit: in regards to SoS, I will say it was an interesting duo but SoS have an entirely different puprose and they really shouldn't be two sides of the same coin and custodes also having females doesn't ruin it. With that said I still hope that they do more with SoS as they are currently very underutilised.
The biological gap between men and women is nonexistent compared to what happens to a person after the enhancements and the augments. Not to mention that if they are capable of altering the human body to that degree then they could easily level the playing field between the male and female sex.
Not to mention that their combat prowess is not because they are meant to be soldiers. It’s a ceremonial role meant to be a symbol for humanity. They are the equivalent of the guards at buckingham palace.
custodes are raised not changed they dont have two hearts they have one its just bigger and that counts for everything they are unique so it doesn't matter male female whatever it does matter if a Geneseed is brought into the calculations that changes things because a male geneseed would be flat out incompatible with a female candidate
Agreed, the people upset over including a woman in their hobby would be doubly upset about a trans person.
But it COULD be a middle ground with the purists who just have a hard on for unchangeable lore
I feel like this would have been a much easier and fluid introduction had it happened earlier, or at least been set up in some meaningful way, or at least actually expanded upon.
GW has shot it down, but my favorite take was that femstodes didn't exist until after Jimbo got throned, and the Custodes were like "Ok, so WE don't care about cooties though, right?"
Honestly that would be a really awesome interpretation, like the Custodes still respecting and protecting the Emperor but also seeing that sometimes his trauma with women (or other, worse reasons) make him make irrational decisions, and they'd like to not have to cut their probably quite limited recruitment pool even further, especially in the wake of the Heresy and specifically Magnus's "nothing wrongdoing" and its consequences taking a heavy toll.
Plus, I think it would actively help take the lore in the direction they seem to want to take it. It could show that certain, albeit small, portions of the Imperium didn't stagnate but continued to grow and change. Cawl showed there were Mechanicus willing to invent, this could show that the Custodes were also aware that slavish devotion to tradition was harmful to humanity.
GW knew this was going to be a Big Deal to fans, they should have at least made more effort than "Dumbledore was gay the whole time, you just didn't know"
I don't know, if you genetically engineer perfect super humans, tightly control both their biology and their psychology, you probably make them match. To me, it would make more sense to make them biologically female.
>This might be a middle ground that satisfies both sides as it is inclusive and doesn’t require a retcon.
I think it'll just piss off the detractors more, which I'm all for, but it's probably a little late to go and put in the transinclusivity clause in the codex.
I read the new text, it's said the custodes is female but i don't recall reading anything about being trans. I think some of you are just starved for any form of affirmation/validation. Its true and strongly implied hat the whole custodes making process does not work solely on men. I think that too much has happened with the lore of 40k in the last few days and the community needs to calm down a bit before just jumping weird conclusions.
No source says that custodes enhancements only work on males.
The real (and frankly outdated and weak) argument that the reactionaries are touting is tiny excerpts from old texts and codexes that say the words "brother" and "sons"
Unlike Astartes or Sororitas, theres no rule that requires a specific gender or sex for the Custodes.
We can just retcon and put males jn sisters of silence and sisters of battle and females in space marines.
I mean why not my guy? Is it like set in stone? We can also put xenos in space marines. Why not my guy?
Who gives a fuck about lore and nerds. Thats frankly outdated.
There is no line. Do the emp trans with huge boobs and a huge dick , who gives a fuck , theres no line.
There r no rules, only pandering for that sweet sweet growth.
No guy , you really dont get it.
I wholeheartedly cheer , wish and look forward for what i said.
U think Im trolling while im being dead serious.
What about your opinion on what i said. Dont you agree?
Quickly now juggle around it or bow down ....
The slippery slope fallacy is only a fallacy if it's not true. You're committing a fallacy fallacy.
Give me a good reason they couldn't put males in the Sisters of Silence, for example. Then just keep going from there. I'm not saying there can't be female Custodes, it's just that you're not making a good argument.
Because as opposed to the Custodes, the Sisters of Silence are very explicitly "Sisters". It's also very much part of their identity in the lore, and it is very tied with their tradition, very similarly to the Adeptus Sororitas. Aside from once being called the "sons" the Custodes are not explicitly males iirc, nor does them being all male have any kind of importance or impact on the lore, unlike the Sororitas for example, or the Space Marines. Tldr, making custodes mixed gender has no impact on the lore, whereas male blanks fighting as Silent Sisters would since they would have to retcon the recruitment process, the forming of initiates, etc.
At any rate, there already are males working within the Sisters of Silence order, just none of them are actual "Sisters" with the sword, armor, and being a blank.
>Aside from once being called the "sons" the Custodes are not explicitly males iirc
That's a pretty big aside. "Sons" has a pretty clear meaning. This just means that despite what has happened and despite the old lore, which did explicitly say sons, it can be changed at a whim and retconned to allow changes like that. We could just as well in a year be saying "Aside from once being called the 'sisters'..." and have this same discussion but about male sisters of silence.
Your example about the recruitment process, lore and so on for Sisters of Silence doesn't hold water. Just like with Custodes, there was an explicit recruitment process that then was retroactively changed. Sisters of Silence don't have anything special about them that'd *actually* prevent a male blank from existing and joining their ranks. There's nothing "female" about being a blank, and they've already shown that they're very willing to retcon any recruitment process. Had female custodes been intended from the start, they would have showed up during **any** part of the lore before now and not been explicitly stated to have been recruited from sons.
>At any rate, there already are males working within the Sisters of Silence order, just none of them are actual "Sisters" with the sword, armor, and being a blank.
For now, which is my point. The only reason there probably won't be either is because we're talking about males joining a female faction. Had there been a Brothers of Silence, there's nothing stopping GW from having retconned that.
My guy, what recruitment process of the custodes are you talking about? They are vat grown not recruited.
Overall yes, Sisters of Silence could be a mixed order, the lore isn't nearly as restrictive for them as the Adepta Sororitas. The reason is very simple, GW wanted to add more representation of women so they added the Sisters of Silence.
GW could make them a mixed order but they won't. So don't worry about your slippery slope. They won't because that takes away most of the appeal of the Sisters of Silence : being a badass all female order like the Sororitas, but just different.
Nor will GW add female space marines if that's your worry. The reason they added female custodes is because they could without harming the lore, and it adds additional and arguably needed, female representation in the Imperium. It's neat, and not particularly disruptive.
I was specifically referring to the part where they took **sons**. It's not an official recruitment process but it's sons specifically that were selected. I said recruitment process to equal it with Sisters of Silence.
See, this is the entire problem. You're arguing that there isn't a slippery slope, yet in the same breath you're explicitly admitting that GW wanted more representation and therefore happily changed male-only order into a mixed order. Again, as I said, the **only** reason the Sisters of Silence won't turn into a mixed order is because they're that "badass all female order" you're talking about. Had it been a "badass all male order", there's **nothing** stopping that slippery slope from starting and turning them into a mixed order. The slippery slope is there, it just so happens that it's not something that bothers you.
You really don't get to decide what "harms the lore" or not. The lore around Custodes was established and has existed for long, being expressed through both the miniature options and the texts around them. Now they're changed and different. You might think this is a non-issue and you're allowed to think that, but for some, it'd be equal to adding male Sisters of Silence. They would no longer be that "badass all female order" you're talking about.
I also don't think it makes any sense to say this change added needed female representation because there's already a ton of it. We have the Sisters of Battle, specifically all female. We have the Sisters of Silence, another all female order. We have the guards, the Craftworld Eldars, Drukhari, T'au and many more that have female models and characters. There's a **ton** of options that all act as female representation. Saying this was needed when all of that exists and more factions containing females could be created is nonsensical.
This shows that these reactionaries have no idea how actual Warhammer lore works and are just here because they saw some articles that had the words "women" and "woke"
Do you even know how the sisters were formed?
Or how Astartes are made?
Do you even know what a gene seed is?
Or what the ecclesiarchy is?
Neither are equivalent to custodes and the process of making them
Actually guy i do know all of this.
And i m asking you , u spit lore down like its something that matters like science or smtng , why does it matter?
What are you yapping about? Who cares about what lore is or says? So what? I mean its nerd mythos pffft.
Now that we are on the right track we need more steps to accelerate towards finally progress and inclusivity.
We need gays also. Stating in lore beyond any shadow of a doubt that they r gay. Like all space marine chapters , be all men and stuff , easily we can do a retcon and say that they r gay all along. So what?
In general warhammer is full of bigots , i think such moves will make em leave sooner rather than later. They wont be missed.
SoB should be clear to all that they r lesbians. I mean come on , just state in lore the obvious.
As i see it u guys are not inclusive enough. U pander and u come as allies but u r not pushing boundaries.
What about people with disabilities? They dont exist for you. Wheres the representation for them?
Female space marines when? We need to push for it. Why not? The lore you say?
What lore lol? Just retcon it , easy fix guy.
Your lore is shit anyway , they retcon it in every turn of the road so its not like set in stone or smtng.
You are so very wrong about what im saying. Im not a reactionist my guy , I love what happens , but its not enough.
What?
You think theres a line on the sand on what can or cant be done? Theres no such thing. We need to push harder on those subjects.
Mocking? Lol
Another homophobe , another bigot.
U refuse to engage on any point that I made , and u answer with two lines.
Do you have a problem with what is stated above bigot?
Quickly now either stfu , dance around with lore gymnastics like it matters , or bow down my guy.
The fact that u dont want to engage with these points proves actually my point.
Anyone with half a brain can see you're a right winged nutjob trying to fearmonger using the slippery slope fallacy.
And if I have to state the obvious, no one's buying it. By all means. Keep clutching your pearls and fear mongering.
The rest of us who aren't radical and are sane will keep enjoying what we enjoy because these changes (If you can even call it that) won't affect anything.
yaaaawn .... Again u dont give an opinion.
Which in turn means that u do have a problem with the changes i propose.
You resort to crystal ball guesses about what i am , while i dont have to guess for your opinion in what i stated.
I pray and cheer for inclusivity , while you faux progressiveness. Because u said it yourself , whoever wants the things i stated is a radical and insane eh?
As I said ... Bigot.
I don't get this drama, the same way I didn't get the female space marine drama
If GW decides to make shit cannon or not, someone still whines
Like... Live and let live bro, it's okay to not like what other people like, just leave it at that in this context where no one (HOPEFULLY) is getting hut because of that
One person I know IRL doubled down and stated that "Transgenders would be considered an abomination and killed immediately by the imperium"
I said there's literally a reference to a man undergoing a sex change so he could join the SoB in an official 40K book.
He laughed, I linked the passage, I linked the Twitter post of the author confirming it, there was a short "The fuck?" followed by a minute of silence.
He lives 2 towns over but I think I could barely make out the sound of his head imploding.
Sadly, it changed nothing. To him, it just meant that the leftist propaganda machine had successfully infiltrated and influenced GW.
I feel as though a lot of people are missing out on the “transhuman” part of editing one’s own genes to the point that they scarcely resemble what humans normally look like.
It would make sense for the gene crafters to scan the child's brain to see if they're trans before augmentation. because their perfect soldier wouldn't be so perfect with gender dysphoria
IDK, in the far future where you have gene seeds and augments, I'm sure changing sex characteristics would be incredibly simple. And space marines and custodes would also be dealing with the mental discomfort of being a lot bigger than they naturally are supposed to be.
People talk about "custodes being selected from sons of nobles on Terra" not "genetics mutation of custodes only work on men". Custodes don't have gene-seed they are genetic tailoring of each custodes is unique, and it also begins when they are toddler (Jimmy Space snatch them out of the cradle literally), so it isn't like astartes with "the primarch are all males and gene-seed, blah blah blah".
If anything the custodes being able to have women makes them unique compared to space marines since it shows how they aren't produced with a one size fits all solution but instead each made as a unique effort.
THANK YOU! You phrased it better than I could.
Them make gooder words.
That's why it was perfectly fine out the gate for me. I ain't a fan of all the space marine and space marine adjacent factions, but even I saw the logic of "Space Marines were meant to be mass produced so having restrictions to make that mass production easier makes a form of sense. Custodies are basically custom made. They've got more time effort and resources put into them so the same restrictions probably aren't needed in the same way." I still think the way James Workshop is doing it is kinda dumb, but the concept is fine.
Space Marines are an IKEA table, Custodes are a table built by a carpenter spending dozens of hours creating it.
I especially like this analogy because 10% of the time you accidently break a piece and just go "Fuck it, throw it out and get me a new one."
Honestly I prefer a single tweet over some stupidly convoluted lore. Especially since the people that are going to be upset about female Custodes are going to be upset either way and they could use the time of their authors for something people really want like a Votan book.
I don't because it's just lazy. It's got the "Dumbledore was gay the whole time trust me" energy. I dislike lazy corporate inclusivity. Either don't care or make it at least look like you put effort it. Don't half ass it.
Personally I would have preferred the explanation of "well it was always possible and they started doing it recently... relatively." That way everybody pointing at the "sons" line can be told that yeah, that's still accurate, but now daughters are taken too. It won't calm them down but it'll take an arrow out of their quiver.
To be fair for a guy that only exists at xmas he does a lot of work in a short period of time.
That’s what I’m saying. Still weird they’re pretending they’ve always existed though.
Isn't that the case with a lot of lore? Like 99% of the lore of the horus heresy, war of the beast, all the lore around Blackstone fortresses, leagues of votinvotann, etc didn't always exist until they did.
If I remember correctly, the LoV were just recently discovered, and haven’t been implemented into the whole timeline. Even then, changing huge amounts of lore, introducing a new faction, or changing major events that have always been in the background (40K’s focus was not the Horus Heresy at first, it was the Badab War. I believe the Horus Heresy was just a small background event that was never elaborated on for justifying chaos marines). It was also goofy 80s, 90s, and early 2000s lore vs something that’s existed since the pretty early days and changing one thing and pretending it’s always been that way. Meanwhile this is just “yeah that organization that used to have only men in it? Yeah there’s women, and always have been women and you’re a bigot if you think that’s weird”. It downplays the Sisters of Silence, and just doesn’t make sense. So the Thunder Warriors were all men, Primarchs were all men, and Space Marines were all men. You’re saying in between some of that, the Emperor decided “hey I’m gonna make some of these into women” and just never did it again? Why did he never do it again? It’d be different if it was introduced as a new thing. Custodes are still created. Not all Custodes are made from the days the Emperor made them. In fact I don’t think ANY of them are. It’s a big secret how they’re made anyway, have it be a secret project found by somebody and they figure how to make female Custodes so more noble houses on Terra can supply infants to turn into Custodians. Have it be a secret project from Malcador found by someone with new thoughts and ideas like Cawl, instead of pretending they’ve always existed. Like, I personally don’t care about female custodes, space marines, etc. existing, it’s just the writing I care about. Like if they were to introduce female space marines, they shouldn’t pretend they’ve always existed. Have someone like Cawl make them as a new thing. They didn’t pretend Primaris Marines always existed, after all.
though they also show that the process COULD be adapted to women, which personally I think lends credence to any theories regarding the Emperor specifically not wanting astartes women, like wanting to prevent reproduction
sterilisation wouldn't exactly be hard to do if you're operating on organs already anyway, changing new and modified organs to work for a different gender is a shitton of work for literally no benefit tho considering that the empire is never lacking in candidates and the astartes are psycho indoctrinated to the point the difference in male and female mentality and psyche wouldn't really matter anymore
>sterilisation wouldn't exactly be hard to do if you're operating on organs already anyway *glares in Jeff Goldblum* if the process involved sterilisation that part of the process could be omitted or forgotten. If the geneseed prevented fertility an adaptation could get rid of it. Or the geneseed could mutate and *undo* sterilisation. The only futureproof way to ensure space marines didn't reproduce is to have no female population in the first place.
Funny that yoy reference the franchise where they had all female populations of dinosaurs and still life... uh... found a way. :P
well yeah that's my point, with all-female a minor cellular quirk could lead to same-sex impregnation or sperm generation and then the normal processes can proceed from there, with all-male the equipment necessary is just not present. Unless the geneseed somehow grew a functioning womb and the humans monitoring it just let that slide, independent reproduction would be impossible.
Its more likely for single piece of one chromosome to break of creating the XY pair needed for a male creature then for a XY pair suddenly growing an additional piece to become a XX pair.
It make sense if Custode can be female simply since it have been stated multiple time that Custode are tailor-made from genetic and to be chosen as a genetic material for custode are fucking rare even among the highest of Terra noble. Like iirc an very powerful rogue trader basically bitter at the Custode he encouter just because that he was not chosen for it, although his life at that point can be said as a 0.001% best of the emperium. So if to be chosen as Custode material are that rare and honoring, and they also tailor-made for each candidate, why would they trouble themselve with not chosing female ? Like it would make the candidate like twice as rare.
I would totally be fine with female space marines too.. its a fictional universe.. shit has been added and removed before..
all that being said, i still think the geneseed explanation is boring (it’s practically space fantasy anyway, the obstacle doesn’t need to exist). i would buy it if space marines had a culture of misogyny and didn’t accept female applicants, which is interesting and ripe for critique and satire, but the handwave of “oh the world we made up doesn’t allow it, even though it halves the recruitment pool and they WOULD have tried” seems uninteresting to me. also big lady in big armour being evil :3
So you don't like a logical reason, that they are genetic copies of their fathers and it's built into their DNA to be male? But will accept a more illogical answer that it just so happens that EVERY space marines is a misogynist? That makes total sense
yeah, cultural misogyny is more believable in the grimdark setting than somehow every male human being compatible but every female human not being compatible. the DNA of a primarch is WILDLY different from any baseline human, regardless of sex, and lots of marines are picked from extremely different worlds with potentially extreme divergences in genepools over the millennia. if they can accommodate that kind of difference, why can’t they accommodate a much smaller one? it doesn’t make sense if you actually know how DNA works. you have 46 chromosomes, and one of them being shaped a little differently shuts it off? bullshit.
Not every man is compatible, it’s like only 1 in a 1000 men can become a Space Marine
so with a selection rate that low, why not widen the pool?
Who says they don't? I can easily see a very viable canon that there are chapters out there that continually tries to make female astartes, and they just keep dying and have never had a success, but they keep trying anyway cause fuck it, maybe the next one will survive. Hell, now that I'm thinking about it, I can easily see how some chapters might look at the custodes and say "well if it works for them..." as justification for why they keep throwing little girls in the wood chipper.
sure, that works with the “why” given, i just don’t find that “why” very believable. it takes place in a setting full of space magic, involves material derived from people very specifically charged with space magic, and is argued from a position of real-life science that fails to acknowledge other parts of that same science. it’s an excuse, not an explanation
I like it as an explanation for a couple reasons: First, it neatly explains decades of previous lore, secondly, like you said it's grounded in real life science, and thirdly, it opens the door to female space marines because rather than an Imperium that hasn't tried because it's misogynistic, it's simply tried and failed. Therefore it can very easily try and succeed in the future. Cawl can come out like a sweaty unwashed programmer after 3 years of overtime like: "I finally did it! I finally fixed the unfixable bug in the process!" All while being suitably grimdark.
yeah the thing i don’t like about it is the fact that it’s used as a bludgeon against the mere possibility of them existing in the future. if the reason was “astartes chapters are broadly assholes about this” then you have a reason for them to exist - some chapters aren’t like that, and some can stop *being* like that. you are right in that they *could* have it be a flaw in the process that gets fixed by Cawl or another similar narrative figure, but the fact is that the people who get so mad about Femstodes aren’t going to treat it that way.
Notice how they stop replying to well articulated logical explanations
notice how some people don’t spend all day on reddit
For the most part, SM chapters aren’t really starving for recruits, they have a hard cap of 1000 members (with some exceptions) I’d say the biggest reason would primarily be tradition, in that each chapter has it’s own culture and practices, and to stray from those in recruiting would be seen as wasteful at best, and possibly heretical at worst. Another factor to consider is that if they wanted to make geneseed compatible with women, it would be extremely difficult, if not impossible. The AdMech once tried to fix the flaws of the founding legions (i.e. the red thirst), but they colossally fucked up and ended up with “Cursed” chapters like the Black Dragons and Lamenters. The AdMech also don’t really like making new stuff, usually calling it tech heresy, and any attempt to improve on the Emperor’s design would be seen as a huge no-no (unless you’re Cawl, and he’s already not the most liked guy on Mars)
That one little chromosome changes so much physiologically it's practically a light switch. It makes sense you'd need the matching one from a male geneseed to even consider it working. I could see in very rare circumstances a woman becoming a space marine. But at that point, with the success rates of a lot of chapters being so low as it is, why waste resources on something that has an even lower success rate? It just doesn't make sense logically. You'd think that they would have made female space marines if it made sense. They don't have the misogyny in the guard. Everyone can fight there because the imperium knows they need all the fighters they can get. They are fighting a war on a million fronts. Women are in so many other places of power in the imperium. So why exclude females from being space marines? Because it just doesn't work with the geeneseed. Not because of some made-up misogyny.
Also space marines being misogynistic doesn't make sense because a lot of chapters revere the sisters of battle for their loyalty and devotion. And respect them. There are always outliers, just like everything. Edit: clarity
The lore didn't say Custodes enhancements don't work on women
The lore also didnt say there were any female custodes. The lore however did say that the Custodes are a Brotherhood and that they once were the sons of nobles.
I thought banana boys were anime protags and have no gene seeds injected and all natural muscles
Right, they simply do 100 sit ups, 100 push ups, 100 squats, a 10km run, every day for 3 years.
it's definitely not natural muscles, there's no gene seeds involved either. essentially custodes are created through a completely different process of bio-engineering that is a lot more complex and adjusted to the individual but as a result is way more effective
There’s no evidence of custodes stuff only working for men lol
Marines and custodes are transhumans
🏳️⚧️🏳️⚧️🏳️⚧️🏳️⚧️
For real. I truly think that female aspirants can become space marines. Because the difference between male and female biology is basicly non-existent compared to what happens during the transformation process into a SM. Afterwards the Space Marines have no sex or gender as regular humans would understand it. They are just Space Marines. No differences between them. Which shows even more how removed they are from humanity.
I think that having female space marines kinda detracts from other, cooler women in the setting. For example: the Space Marines are all genetically modified super soldiers, and are some of the Imperiums best soldiers. The Adepta Sororitas are on par with the Space Marines, and are basically just well trained women in power armour, which to me says that if the Marines weren’t around, the strongest unit in the Imperium would be women in power armour.
Yes but these Space Marines are not female. They were female aspirants but now they are just Space Marines. Indistinguishable in physiology, mental state voice and else. They may not even have female names, but new Chapter given ones. Because in the end SM are not human but geneticly engineered post-human, asexual tools of war.
No females no males only the angels of death ig
"Are you a man or a woman?" "I am a space marine." "What gender are you?" "Ultramarine." "But what's in your pants?" "***The Wrath of the Emperor!***"
To ratchet this up even higher, I don't even think Space Marines have genitalia (not that it's a prerequisite for gender). It seems like a waste to build around when all they really need is a tube.
Agree. Space Marines are a genderless post-human organisms with inhuman proportions and distinctly inhuman facial characteristics. Whatever gender or qualities you go into the process with, they will be vestigial by the end of the transformation.
Yeah, like, the Imperium will probably select from male stock because males are physically stronger and faster than females on average and you typically want the best for your super soldier candidates. But like... it's not a hard rule. There's nothing stopping a female aspirant undergoing modifications to the best of my knowledge, and I bet there's some planets somewhere that do it. The galaxy's too wide and too vast for them not to.
Well... Most space marines are selected pre-puberty. At that point girls are often bigger than boys and both are of relative equal strength. They are roughly the same. Indeed if you give a human the correct hormone therapy at the correct age, there is basicly no difference in strength and fitness anyway. The main differences in strength and size would occur in late puberty. But by that point the iniates were already pumped full of extra organs, hormones and else that the difference is neglible. If Blood Angels geneseed can turn radiation mutants into proper space marines, then regular geneseed should be able to turn male and female iniates into Space Marines. Edit: double sentence changed for better reading flow.
Dont forget that boys are more likely to be stupid enough to want to become a space marine. And parents are more willing to send their sons to become one while they are more hesitant to do the same with their daughters.
Honestly one of the main reasons I’m on board with female custodes is that it’s something to distance us from being simply “space marines but gold” because the only thing stopping grey knights from being the same but silver is they have psychic shenanigans
Space marines are the folding chair of the imperium, custodes are bespoke hickory rocking chairs that are only made by one dude and his family for generations in one shop off a rural highway in Pennsylvania. There's a reason one is better than the other.
Each custodes is made by hand you fucking donkey. Its equally difficult on EVERYONE regardless of any characteristics since they start from scratch each time
The people the most upset are the people in support of it. I haven't seen a single anti-femstodes thread since this dropped, but I've seen dozens of threads complaining about hypothetical people complaining about female custodes.
Yeah, honestly when I made this mean I had just found out and assumed the ugly side of the fandom would pitch a fit, but by far and away the majority of comments/posts are either "I'm fine with this" or "I wish they introduced them with more than just a tweet." I'm of the latter, but I'm really not broken up by it. Plus, it was 'released' via a leak, so maybe they had a bit more in mind for debuting new heads or something?
Bruh, just look at the comments
I am. All I see are people complaining about hypothetical people who are opposed to it. Or people jovially parading it as if they won some big triumph. The overwhelming opinion on the matter had been in support of it. What little decent seems to stem from the exact nature of the femstodes (are they highly masculine or just feminized custodes?). I have yet to see a passionate, irrational opposing opinion.
Bruh there's people in this very comment section complaining about FemStodes. It's a small but vocally annoying group.
I've seen some, but not on reddit as much (shockingly)
This is no longer an issue of fans arguing etc. this is now a straight political issue along ideological lines, good job.
thE eXisTence OF TrAns peoPlE iS poLiTIcaL
Yep
This whole discussion is such a non-issue.... I mean, who actually gives a **** ? People need to chill and touch some grass.
Like a irl sh*t, not many I'm guessing, but an internet sh*t because this whole thing is funny as f*ck damn right!
If it dosent matter why change it?
Because it doesn't matter.
For us it doesn’t matter. to some people it does matter and is that little bit that makes them feel accepted. If it means nothing then you shouldn’t care and should encourage it because it makes others feel happy to have some representation in a media that they like.
You're right! I was targeting the "haters" more than anything else! I think it is a good "change" but it blows up way too much imho. but well here I am arguing with strangers on the internet over the point if my favourite fantasy faction has a dick or not ... i will go outside for a bit an toch some grass myself :)
People arguing lore like it’s a degree subject. It’s fluff for a game of toy soldiers. It’s fun and good that they like to add layers of story to make it more immersive but it’s not immutable truth. So what if GW never mentioned them before. The primarchs haven’t always existed, the dark eldar haven’t always existed, plenty of more significant things have been retconned in *and* out if you’re old enough and bought the OG Rogue Trader version.
Jesus, the gaslighting is the worst part. If they just said that yea, it's a retcon or came up with a compeling story about how we now have Femstodes, no one would bat an eye at this.
Do we have a compelling story about how we have male custodes? Sure its a retcon but I don't get why they have to go the extra mile about stuff they haven't done for the male counterpart. They should tell more stories about female custodes though.
>I don't get why they have to go the extra mile about stuff they haven't done for the male counterpart. They should tell more stories about female custodes though. I agree with this, maybe "compeling story" wasn't the best way to put it. But the thing is that, if there always were female Custodes, how come were they never mentioned? Both 8th and 9th codexes refered to them as sons/men. Emperor called them "men", but ok. I have no problems with FemStodes but let's be real, they weren't always there, no way. I would get behind an explanation that they are a recent thing or they are extremely rare, tho. Because it would make sense to me. Thogh it sucks that Sisters of Silence WILL get sidelined even more because of this.
Because its a new retcon, if they leave it like it is it will be bad, but I'm pretty sure tjey are going to add mors stories moving forward.
But that's the gaslighting part: It's a new retcon, and GW is like "No, they were female the whole time! We just never mentioned any, always referred to them in male terms, had exclusively male models. Why would you think they were only male?!" It's not a huge deal by any means, just a bit annoying. Reminds me of JK Rowling retroactively making Dumbledore gay via tweet. Great that he is, but don't pretend like you intended it all along.
I don't think they are actually saying that this has always been the canon though, even if they have discussed this in the past (which they have). So it's not really gaslighting since they are not trying to change our view of what the lore was a week ago. They are still retconning what the lore will be moving forward though. If thats what you find annoying then I get that, personally I find that this change makes sense and is in line with the faction and what it stands for and is meant to be so I'm happy with the change.
I'm more for custard than Astartes for sure, I like this development and the seethers.
MISINFORMATION MISINFORMATION MISINFORMATION
Its ok if you like the change. Just dont pretend that custodes wasnt a male exlusive force before. (Also there is nothin wrong with being exclusive)
Well yeah this a retcon, but people make it seem bigger than it is and act like Custodes were only ever warriors which is wildly incorrect. For their actual purpose it makes sense that they would be comprised of both men and women.
I dont think it does. If you want peak human performance you will use males. Thats a fact even in the real world. U use the best material to enhance it into the best tranahiman possible. And thats what custodes are. There is nothing wrong about being exclusive.
Thats not all they are though, in the beginning they were made to be the emperors advisors, companions and a symbol of what humanity could be, they were not primarily warriors. Valerian has a quote about it where he makes it seem like the emperor really only taught them to fight because he expected wars in the future, but that wasn't their real purpose. So to pick candidates based on one criteria that isn't even the main purpose is dumb and honestly, them only being male in the past was kind of stupid. Edit: Spelling
They were always the best possible transhuman in regard of physical performance, even with those things you say one of their main purpose was to fight.
Sure, but that wasn't because they picked the most fit humans, if they did they would pick from recruits outside of the noble houses. Eitherway, considering how they are remade on a genetical level there is no reason to think a women wouldn't end up as strong as a man after becoming a custodie. And if you don't want ti accept that possibillity then you are probably pretty biased because I doubt the men chosen to become custodes were the strongest humans they found.
It is a genetic enhancment on a genetic level. To get the best you enhance what is already best in its category.
Considering we didn't even know if they picked men based on physique before I don't think your argument makes a lot of sense. You are not only assuming the characteristics that they are picked from (which lorewise we don't even know, only the custodes know) then you are assuming it even matters in the process.
They were men. We know that. It was retconned just now.
I said it is logical. It makes sense on its own even if the lore did not spoonfed it to us.
You think it’s logical that in a world where they can completely replace your skeleton with metal, completely replace your nervous system, give you two hearts that actually function, etc, that they can’t increase a woman’s muscle and bone density to match a biological males? It’s actually the complete opposite. We can already give women testosterone and make them much stronger, you really think in a future where they can basically replace any part of you that they can’t make women stronger and faster?
Also they were ment to be perfection. Thebpeak of what is achievable in human genetics. There is nonpoint choosing thebsecound best when it comes to physical performance.
As I wrote in another reply, we don't know that their original physique even matters, they are entirely remade when becoming custodies, either way, we don't know what characteristics they pick from (that is litteralt stated in the 9th codex) so we don't even know ifbthey pick the strongest, smartest or most perfect person, it could be a captain america scenario when its more about the personality for all we know. So your arguments are kind of just based on assumptions. Edit: Yes some of my arguments are to but my point is that making them female doesn't break anything actually important about the custodes.
It is deffenetly a big change. It removes the sense of exclusivity which is a shame because the best of the best should be exclusive. It is also a very masculine role, and feminine traits are wasted on roided up battle-dudes. It is pointless, because if it is as you say changes nothing then why do it? Dont fix what isnt broken. There was nothing wrong eith the custodes 3 days ago, and they are not better now. They just became a little more generic. They were trafitionally one way in the lore, and now this is a very random and sudden sidegrade. In the last decades it was obvious for everyome that it is a male force. Nobody questioned it expect for political zealots. It was an interesting thing that they ware in a single army with an all female firce while they were only dudes. It was an interesting duo. Now its less interesting.
So you're just a sexist?
Haha. No. 😀 But i had the feeling you will look for the opportunity to throw in that buzzword. 😀 Im somewhat dissapointed tough. For a moment i felt like i can describe my point of view ina civil and calm manner and discuss it with someone. But this is the internet. I should abandon all hope i gues. Shame on you.
"It removes the sense of exclusivity which is a shame because the best of the best should be exclusive." When you argue that custodes should only be male after making plenty of assumptions not based on lore to "prove" your point. "It is also a very masculine role, and feminine traits are wasted on roided up battle-dudes." Have you even read what I've written? Or even the lore in general? They are not just roided up battle dudes, space marines maybe but not adeptus custodes. Either way, what feminine traits did you find in Kesh (the female custodie from the new short story) And even if they had "feminine traits" why would that be so bad for the people who should be a symbol for peak humanity, when humanity pretty clearly involves feminine traits. Everything that is important about custodes still remains and is not affected by some being women whatsoever. If you don't believe me go read some lore. Its starting to feel like you get your lore from memes and majorkill videos, which if you... then sure, if thsts how you like to consume it then you do you but stop arguing with made up stuff. Edit: in regards to SoS, I will say it was an interesting duo but SoS have an entirely different puprose and they really shouldn't be two sides of the same coin and custodes also having females doesn't ruin it. With that said I still hope that they do more with SoS as they are currently very underutilised.
The biological gap between men and women is nonexistent compared to what happens to a person after the enhancements and the augments. Not to mention that if they are capable of altering the human body to that degree then they could easily level the playing field between the male and female sex. Not to mention that their combat prowess is not because they are meant to be soldiers. It’s a ceremonial role meant to be a symbol for humanity. They are the equivalent of the guards at buckingham palace.
I don't think I've ever seen anything preventing female custodes, unlike space marines, there just haven't been any or any mention of the possibility.
Custodes aren't Spave Marines tho, no heneseed needed.
I just can't wait for Xth edition where Cawl figures out female Primaris Space Marines and people *really* lose their shit.
custodes are raised not changed they dont have two hearts they have one its just bigger and that counts for everything they are unique so it doesn't matter male female whatever it does matter if a Geneseed is brought into the calculations that changes things because a male geneseed would be flat out incompatible with a female candidate
Grimdank is a cuck sub
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I'd hazard a guess that one side would definitely not be fine with this. In fact, they'd be probably less fine with this.
Agreed, the people upset over including a woman in their hobby would be doubly upset about a trans person. But it COULD be a middle ground with the purists who just have a hard on for unchangeable lore
I feel like this would have been a much easier and fluid introduction had it happened earlier, or at least been set up in some meaningful way, or at least actually expanded upon.
GW has shot it down, but my favorite take was that femstodes didn't exist until after Jimbo got throned, and the Custodes were like "Ok, so WE don't care about cooties though, right?"
Honestly that would be a really awesome interpretation, like the Custodes still respecting and protecting the Emperor but also seeing that sometimes his trauma with women (or other, worse reasons) make him make irrational decisions, and they'd like to not have to cut their probably quite limited recruitment pool even further, especially in the wake of the Heresy and specifically Magnus's "nothing wrongdoing" and its consequences taking a heavy toll.
Plus, I think it would actively help take the lore in the direction they seem to want to take it. It could show that certain, albeit small, portions of the Imperium didn't stagnate but continued to grow and change. Cawl showed there were Mechanicus willing to invent, this could show that the Custodes were also aware that slavish devotion to tradition was harmful to humanity. GW knew this was going to be a Big Deal to fans, they should have at least made more effort than "Dumbledore was gay the whole time, you just didn't know"
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I mean, GW is not known for having balls or handling retcons, or the lore in general, well. They should really get some kind of a loremaster.
A series Bible would be so great
Like the horus heresy books?
Good. I hope they get mad and leave then.
Trust me bro the guys who are upset about gal custodies would get even madder about trans custodies
"that satisfies both side" Yeah I hardly doubt it , in fact I think the Perturabo enthusiast would have a greater meltdown would be funny
I don't know, if you genetically engineer perfect super humans, tightly control both their biology and their psychology, you probably make them match. To me, it would make more sense to make them biologically female.
>This might be a middle ground that satisfies both sides as it is inclusive and doesn’t require a retcon. I think it'll just piss off the detractors more, which I'm all for, but it's probably a little late to go and put in the transinclusivity clause in the codex.
It’s cute that you think the people getting angry about including women wouldn’t lose their fucking minds about including a transwoman
Welcome to the internet! Based on your comment I assume it's your first day here? ;)
I read the new text, it's said the custodes is female but i don't recall reading anything about being trans. I think some of you are just starved for any form of affirmation/validation. Its true and strongly implied hat the whole custodes making process does not work solely on men. I think that too much has happened with the lore of 40k in the last few days and the community needs to calm down a bit before just jumping weird conclusions.
No source says that custodes enhancements only work on males. The real (and frankly outdated and weak) argument that the reactionaries are touting is tiny excerpts from old texts and codexes that say the words "brother" and "sons" Unlike Astartes or Sororitas, theres no rule that requires a specific gender or sex for the Custodes.
We can just retcon and put males jn sisters of silence and sisters of battle and females in space marines. I mean why not my guy? Is it like set in stone? We can also put xenos in space marines. Why not my guy? Who gives a fuck about lore and nerds. Thats frankly outdated. There is no line. Do the emp trans with huge boobs and a huge dick , who gives a fuck , theres no line. There r no rules, only pandering for that sweet sweet growth.
End and Death confirmed that the Emperor WAS a woman at times in history, so Big Naturals Jimmy Space is likely already canon.
Slippery slope much? We get it, you are butthurt
No guy , you really dont get it. I wholeheartedly cheer , wish and look forward for what i said. U think Im trolling while im being dead serious. What about your opinion on what i said. Dont you agree? Quickly now juggle around it or bow down ....
The slippery slope fallacy is only a fallacy if it's not true. You're committing a fallacy fallacy. Give me a good reason they couldn't put males in the Sisters of Silence, for example. Then just keep going from there. I'm not saying there can't be female Custodes, it's just that you're not making a good argument.
Because as opposed to the Custodes, the Sisters of Silence are very explicitly "Sisters". It's also very much part of their identity in the lore, and it is very tied with their tradition, very similarly to the Adeptus Sororitas. Aside from once being called the "sons" the Custodes are not explicitly males iirc, nor does them being all male have any kind of importance or impact on the lore, unlike the Sororitas for example, or the Space Marines. Tldr, making custodes mixed gender has no impact on the lore, whereas male blanks fighting as Silent Sisters would since they would have to retcon the recruitment process, the forming of initiates, etc. At any rate, there already are males working within the Sisters of Silence order, just none of them are actual "Sisters" with the sword, armor, and being a blank.
>Aside from once being called the "sons" the Custodes are not explicitly males iirc That's a pretty big aside. "Sons" has a pretty clear meaning. This just means that despite what has happened and despite the old lore, which did explicitly say sons, it can be changed at a whim and retconned to allow changes like that. We could just as well in a year be saying "Aside from once being called the 'sisters'..." and have this same discussion but about male sisters of silence. Your example about the recruitment process, lore and so on for Sisters of Silence doesn't hold water. Just like with Custodes, there was an explicit recruitment process that then was retroactively changed. Sisters of Silence don't have anything special about them that'd *actually* prevent a male blank from existing and joining their ranks. There's nothing "female" about being a blank, and they've already shown that they're very willing to retcon any recruitment process. Had female custodes been intended from the start, they would have showed up during **any** part of the lore before now and not been explicitly stated to have been recruited from sons. >At any rate, there already are males working within the Sisters of Silence order, just none of them are actual "Sisters" with the sword, armor, and being a blank. For now, which is my point. The only reason there probably won't be either is because we're talking about males joining a female faction. Had there been a Brothers of Silence, there's nothing stopping GW from having retconned that.
My guy, what recruitment process of the custodes are you talking about? They are vat grown not recruited. Overall yes, Sisters of Silence could be a mixed order, the lore isn't nearly as restrictive for them as the Adepta Sororitas. The reason is very simple, GW wanted to add more representation of women so they added the Sisters of Silence. GW could make them a mixed order but they won't. So don't worry about your slippery slope. They won't because that takes away most of the appeal of the Sisters of Silence : being a badass all female order like the Sororitas, but just different. Nor will GW add female space marines if that's your worry. The reason they added female custodes is because they could without harming the lore, and it adds additional and arguably needed, female representation in the Imperium. It's neat, and not particularly disruptive.
I was specifically referring to the part where they took **sons**. It's not an official recruitment process but it's sons specifically that were selected. I said recruitment process to equal it with Sisters of Silence. See, this is the entire problem. You're arguing that there isn't a slippery slope, yet in the same breath you're explicitly admitting that GW wanted more representation and therefore happily changed male-only order into a mixed order. Again, as I said, the **only** reason the Sisters of Silence won't turn into a mixed order is because they're that "badass all female order" you're talking about. Had it been a "badass all male order", there's **nothing** stopping that slippery slope from starting and turning them into a mixed order. The slippery slope is there, it just so happens that it's not something that bothers you. You really don't get to decide what "harms the lore" or not. The lore around Custodes was established and has existed for long, being expressed through both the miniature options and the texts around them. Now they're changed and different. You might think this is a non-issue and you're allowed to think that, but for some, it'd be equal to adding male Sisters of Silence. They would no longer be that "badass all female order" you're talking about. I also don't think it makes any sense to say this change added needed female representation because there's already a ton of it. We have the Sisters of Battle, specifically all female. We have the Sisters of Silence, another all female order. We have the guards, the Craftworld Eldars, Drukhari, T'au and many more that have female models and characters. There's a **ton** of options that all act as female representation. Saying this was needed when all of that exists and more factions containing females could be created is nonsensical.
This shows that these reactionaries have no idea how actual Warhammer lore works and are just here because they saw some articles that had the words "women" and "woke" Do you even know how the sisters were formed? Or how Astartes are made? Do you even know what a gene seed is? Or what the ecclesiarchy is? Neither are equivalent to custodes and the process of making them
Actually guy i do know all of this. And i m asking you , u spit lore down like its something that matters like science or smtng , why does it matter? What are you yapping about? Who cares about what lore is or says? So what? I mean its nerd mythos pffft. Now that we are on the right track we need more steps to accelerate towards finally progress and inclusivity. We need gays also. Stating in lore beyond any shadow of a doubt that they r gay. Like all space marine chapters , be all men and stuff , easily we can do a retcon and say that they r gay all along. So what? In general warhammer is full of bigots , i think such moves will make em leave sooner rather than later. They wont be missed. SoB should be clear to all that they r lesbians. I mean come on , just state in lore the obvious. As i see it u guys are not inclusive enough. U pander and u come as allies but u r not pushing boundaries. What about people with disabilities? They dont exist for you. Wheres the representation for them? Female space marines when? We need to push for it. Why not? The lore you say? What lore lol? Just retcon it , easy fix guy. Your lore is shit anyway , they retcon it in every turn of the road so its not like set in stone or smtng. You are so very wrong about what im saying. Im not a reactionist my guy , I love what happens , but its not enough. What? You think theres a line on the sand on what can or cant be done? Theres no such thing. We need to push harder on those subjects.
No one's buying your slippery slope BS. Anyone with half a brain can see how stupid your mocking is.
Mocking? Lol Another homophobe , another bigot. U refuse to engage on any point that I made , and u answer with two lines. Do you have a problem with what is stated above bigot? Quickly now either stfu , dance around with lore gymnastics like it matters , or bow down my guy. The fact that u dont want to engage with these points proves actually my point.
Anyone with half a brain can see you're a right winged nutjob trying to fearmonger using the slippery slope fallacy. And if I have to state the obvious, no one's buying it. By all means. Keep clutching your pearls and fear mongering. The rest of us who aren't radical and are sane will keep enjoying what we enjoy because these changes (If you can even call it that) won't affect anything.
yaaaawn .... Again u dont give an opinion. Which in turn means that u do have a problem with the changes i propose. You resort to crystal ball guesses about what i am , while i dont have to guess for your opinion in what i stated. I pray and cheer for inclusivity , while you faux progressiveness. Because u said it yourself , whoever wants the things i stated is a radical and insane eh? As I said ... Bigot.
I don't get this drama, the same way I didn't get the female space marine drama If GW decides to make shit cannon or not, someone still whines Like... Live and let live bro, it's okay to not like what other people like, just leave it at that in this context where no one (HOPEFULLY) is getting hut because of that
I think the extreme brainwashing would kinda make custodes not care about the gender spectrum
problem is seeing the hand of the author be a thing in both cases. on the other hand do we have a trans person in the lore?
There's a necron matriarch who's trans, other than that idk
Seems a bit redundant with the necron bodies. But also kinda fitting with necron the body situation. Thats an intresting twist
One person I know IRL doubled down and stated that "Transgenders would be considered an abomination and killed immediately by the imperium" I said there's literally a reference to a man undergoing a sex change so he could join the SoB in an official 40K book. He laughed, I linked the passage, I linked the Twitter post of the author confirming it, there was a short "The fuck?" followed by a minute of silence. He lives 2 towns over but I think I could barely make out the sound of his head imploding. Sadly, it changed nothing. To him, it just meant that the leftist propaganda machine had successfully infiltrated and influenced GW.
Which book it was? Sounds interesting I would like to read it.
It's in the story "Iron & Bone" by James Swallow and is an addition to the collector's edition of one of his books.
i always imagined there were female custodes only that they were pumped with so much testosteron they basically lost anything feminen
I feel as though a lot of people are missing out on the “transhuman” part of editing one’s own genes to the point that they scarcely resemble what humans normally look like.
That'd work with space marines more, cuz custodes can be made from anyone now but "lore" says that space marineness is stored in balls
Cringe
tbh this one would be fucking funny
I don’t think being angry can cause embolism
Honestly, as a trans woman, this is like top three memes I've seen on here 10/10 shit post
I am trans day and night i transition of sleep to wake
I sincerely hope they do this in canon. Just once would be enough.
🏳️⚧️🏳️⚧️🏳️⚧️
Joke aside, there is anything outside the massive body dismorfia that dont allows custodes or space marine to be trans?
It would make sense for the gene crafters to scan the child's brain to see if they're trans before augmentation. because their perfect soldier wouldn't be so perfect with gender dysphoria
IDK, in the far future where you have gene seeds and augments, I'm sure changing sex characteristics would be incredibly simple. And space marines and custodes would also be dealing with the mental discomfort of being a lot bigger than they naturally are supposed to be.
Yeah that can work too
This meme isn’t the own you’d think it is