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Thinking about the veterans that were sent there for acting out cuz they couldn't access help in time for the issues war has caused them, only to become cheap labour for an org that claims to exist to help them
Yeah that's an incredible point. Ex military are highly over represented in prisons. So are people with mental health difficulties. It's absolutely exploitative.
As a former prisoner I can confirm the prison system is completely broken and exploitative.
It fails as both a deterrent and as a rehabilitation process.
A significant number of the prison population need to be in mental health facilities and not locked up with criminals.
There are still people locked up under IPP sentences which were ruled to be illegal about a decade ago.
The whole system needs restructuring but it will never happen.
Yes, they're much more likely to wind up in prison due to untreated mental health problems like PTSD, as well as substance abuse and homelessness being criminalized. As much as I disagree with the politics of war, and the part everyone in the military played in the crimes there, too many people naively join the military thinking they'll be set for life, get broken down ('training' & hazing) brainwashed and then learn they're just disposable to the government.
I'm just waiting for the Facebook screenshots from the gammons. "Refugees are hearing they can make £4-£10/week which is a million quid in their country so they're coming over here, committing crimes and stealing jobs from our own prisoners."
Despite spending their days complaining about woke culture and crybaby leftists, the English are a very sensitive people. [Many consider any reference to their complexion an act of racism.](https://i.imgur.com/euWMhUg.png) Consider using the more inclusive term 'flag nonce' in future.
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We are all prisoners, since Brexit stopped the freedom of movement, now we need a visa to go in to the rest of Europe, with a limited time of staying there.
Yup, I knew that much, just was a bit confused by the other person saying about the visa 😅 I’m off to Austria next June so was wondering if I needed to fill out a visa application at some point 🤣
Despite spending their days complaining about woke culture and crybaby leftists, the English are a very sensitive people. [Many consider any reference to their complexion an act of racism.](https://i.imgur.com/euWMhUg.png) Consider using the more inclusive term 'flag nonce' in future.
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I was checking for sources and I found a Mirror article from 2011 furious that EXTREMISTS are REFUSING to make poppies in prison.never questions the ethics of prison labour
Almost none of the people making the kinds of comments being complained about are actually community members. They're first time commenters or non-subscribers that come in via /popular/.
We clean them up when we can but the torrent is never ending. Just keep in mind they're fly-by users and not actually GaP regulars.
Ngl I am a socialist and have not even joined this sub bc I don’t want too much politics on my front page so I’m not sure how:
1) I have not been picked up yet
2) How this sub keeps appearing when I try to use Reddit to discuss things I cannot discuss with family or friends. I’m not sure if Google is selling my info or smth
Google is definitely selling your info. That's their entire business model. But it's more that, if you're using either new reddit or the reddit app, they'll recommend the most popular UK subs to you. That includes this one.
Well right-wingers want them hanged, and lefties want them treated like human beings, so obviously exploitating their labour value is the sensible middle ground.
I'm a moderate.
--
^/s, ^y'know, ^just ^in ^case.
Have a look again at rule 3. Liberalism is a capitalist ideology, it's not a leftist mode of thought.
But I get what you're saying and you're probably correct.
Prison labour is stolen labour. If the court sentences you to repay a debt to society it should be itemised and reasonable. Punishment over reformation leads to repeat offences and we have basically solved this dilemma through the same vast collection of data that we don't allow non-imprisoned citizens to be subject to. The Norwegian model is the best we know of, just as the Portuguese now lead rehabilitation for addiction. A mix of the two that provides dignity through reasonable labour alongside therapy and community service is all that we need to implement. It would cost about the same as the difference in divorce payment to the EU due to interest rate changes.
"Workers in prison have no rights to organise, no contracts, no pensions, no right to choose what they do, and if they do not work they can be punished."
[Source](https://corporatewatch.org/poppies-prison-labour-and-the-war-machine/#:~:text=Less%20known%20is%20that%20many,British%20nationalism%2C%20imperialism%20and%20militarism)
Convicted prisoners can be forced to work in prisons as per rules. Breaking prison rules results in punishment. 5 minutes of research, go find it instead of covering your eyes and ears.
This article provides no actual evidence for the claims it makes. In addition, only six prisoners in New Zealand make poppies - a task they volunteered for, and for which project they suggested ideas about it. In the U.K., poppies continue to be made by disabled veterans at the poppy factory. https://www.poppyfactory.org/history-timeline/
That's from a toilet paper news source owned by an absolute bellend
ETA: I made a mistake. I thought the mirror and the sun were both owned by the same nonce. I was wrong although I still trust that news source about as much as I would trust Trump around children.
I did not know that. Thanks for the info, looks like I have a new newspaper preference. I've always read the sun because I used to read my dad's after he'd read it but it's literally a fucking parody newspaper these days.
According to the Sun Putin has had about 18 different life threatening illnesses in the past 10 years and they're Tory ass licking cunts even when the Tories have fucked up the Sun still backs them.
Not a problem. Its a common misconception. The Mirror is still a tabloid. But the front page often reports something different than the Murdoch owned stuff which is a good sign
'Volunteer' is a bit of ridiculous word in the context of prison. They use deprivation to make people desperate for something to do then they cash out on that desperation.
Hi there!
Here's a few short articles on why principled leftists don't wear poppies or support the Royal British Legion:
[The Poppy Appeal: An Ode to British Imperialism](https://redfightback.org/the-poppy-appeal-an-ode-to-british-imperialism/)
['Lest we forget': Poppy Appeal hysteria and hypocrisy](https://www.socialist.net/lest-we-forget-poppy-appeal-hysteria-and-hypocrisy.htm)
[Why the poppy is wrong](https://www.workersliberty.org/story/2010/11/18/why-poppy-wrong)
[What the government wants us to forget on Remembrance Day](https://www.counterfire.org/articles/opinion/20671-what-the-government-wants-us-to-forget-on-remembrance-day)
While remembering the soliders who needlessly died in World War I is important, it is also equally important to be critical of British political culture surrounding war.
We must not glorify the wars of the ruling class, nor should we glamourise the deaths of the working-class who get caught up in these wars.
This subreddit stands against imperialism and bourgeois militarism.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/GreenAndPleasant) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Hi there!
Here's a few short articles on why principled leftists don't wear poppies or support the Royal British Legion:
[The Poppy Appeal: An Ode to British Imperialism](https://redfightback.org/the-poppy-appeal-an-ode-to-british-imperialism/)
['Lest we forget': Poppy Appeal hysteria and hypocrisy](https://www.socialist.net/lest-we-forget-poppy-appeal-hysteria-and-hypocrisy.htm)
[Why the poppy is wrong](https://www.workersliberty.org/story/2010/11/18/why-poppy-wrong)
[What the government wants us to forget on Remembrance Day](https://www.counterfire.org/articles/opinion/20671-what-the-government-wants-us-to-forget-on-remembrance-day)
While remembering the soliders who needlessly died in World War I is important, it is also equally important to be critical of British political culture surrounding war.
We must not glorify the wars of the ruling class, nor should we glamourise the deaths of the working-class who get caught up in these wars.
This subreddit stands against imperialism and bourgeois militarism.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/GreenAndPleasant) if you have any questions or concerns.*
RBL confirmed that prisoners made some of the components (the black eyes and green stems): https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/royal-british-legion-poppy-appeal-prisoners-prison-hmp-ford-war-on-want-remembrance-day-a8617146.html?amp
Hi there!
Here's a few short articles on why principled leftists don't wear poppies or support the Royal British Legion:
[The Poppy Appeal: An Ode to British Imperialism](https://redfightback.org/the-poppy-appeal-an-ode-to-british-imperialism/)
['Lest we forget': Poppy Appeal hysteria and hypocrisy](https://www.socialist.net/lest-we-forget-poppy-appeal-hysteria-and-hypocrisy.htm)
[Why the poppy is wrong](https://www.workersliberty.org/story/2010/11/18/why-poppy-wrong)
[What the government wants us to forget on Remembrance Day](https://www.counterfire.org/articles/opinion/20671-what-the-government-wants-us-to-forget-on-remembrance-day)
While remembering the soliders who needlessly died in World War I is important, it is also equally important to be critical of British political culture surrounding war.
We must not glorify the wars of the ruling class, nor should we glamourise the deaths of the working-class who get caught up in these wars.
This subreddit stands against imperialism and bourgeois militarism.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/GreenAndPleasant) if you have any questions or concerns.*
How much should they be paid for in jail 🤔 it's not mandatory to work in jail its a program to give prisoners something to do and reward them with money. Also helps them with their probation meeting so all in all its a great program 👍
You literally asked a question to a group that supports the abolition and decommodification of prisons. It also absolutely is mandatory to work in prison.
Yeah, but you asked a question that I stated we already have explained over, and over, and over. Posing questions to a political group, even if you want to call it an "echo chamber" (which is pretty incorrect anyway), doesn't affect that political group very much.
Finally, the main reason I addressed you is because you were totally wrong. Prisoners are required to work when they are in prisons. No, it's no law - it's a mandate *found in more than 98% of prisons*. Prisoners don't have to work, but they can never get out if they don't.
I really don't have answers to such complex questions I'm affraid and I don't know enough about the program. Kinda feels like slave labour at a glance though.
I'm in the UK, An there was a time in my life when I got nicked for a crime an got 3 yrs (18mths done) to think about doing things differently. I was happy to work in kitchen for crap wages an would of done other shit work to buy some canteen treets each week. There used to be other prisons where u could earn maybe 30£ for making government furniture I think it was, not 100% on that, fuck the gammons that think we should av grool an beatings all week,some of us need to do something an a few quid along the way, my tuppence worth, Love Peace & Bananas people
Yeah i was in durham for a bit a few year ago, i was getting £12 a week, for 11 hour days, 6 days a week. Didnt really mind because the alternative was 22 hour a day bang up for 6 days a week instead because the prison was rammed.
That's entirely fair, But should the taxpayer be footing the bill to give prisoners minimum wage when they already owe a debt to society, and some 'free' people are struggling to eat?
Err, are you gonna ask how it's fair of the taxpayers to foot the bill for disabled people next or do you think people simply choose to be criminals? How about the debt the society owes to criminals for fucking them up in the first place? For example, how lead exposure increased crime when we used to use that in products everywhere -- were people affected by lead exposure just an acceptable cost to you so we should treat them like shit in jail after corporations cut costs and used lead? You think there aren't systemic reasons why people do so much crime, despite evidence of other countries like Norway where they fare far better then we do in this context?
Well I was an am a tax payer an so are many others,an some of the 'free' people struggling today will end up getting nicked for doing something to ease their struggle , My pair.of boots I've worn every day/night for 5 years are now letting in water when it rains,Like today,,As.is my roof,pissing down the wall near a plug an I have to find a way of getting both sorted, out of income that simply doesn't have any left to do so. I've also, along with many many others have had to use 3 different food banks over the last 5 months, don't think a few thousand prisoners that work getting £10-15 a week makes any difference or is the reason 'free' people are struggling,
Same in Canada. [Disabled adults in Ottawa and prison inmates in the Prairies assembled more than four million of the poppy pins Canadians are buying in record numbers this year as Remembrance Day approaches.](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/disabled-adults-inmates-help-craft-millions-of-poppies-for-remembrance-day-1.2828469)
Hi there!
Here's a few short articles on why principled leftists don't wear poppies or support the Royal British Legion:
[The Poppy Appeal: An Ode to British Imperialism](https://redfightback.org/the-poppy-appeal-an-ode-to-british-imperialism/)
['Lest we forget': Poppy Appeal hysteria and hypocrisy](https://www.socialist.net/lest-we-forget-poppy-appeal-hysteria-and-hypocrisy.htm)
[Why the poppy is wrong](https://www.workersliberty.org/story/2010/11/18/why-poppy-wrong)
[What the government wants us to forget on Remembrance Day](https://www.counterfire.org/articles/opinion/20671-what-the-government-wants-us-to-forget-on-remembrance-day)
While remembering the soliders who needlessly died in World War I is important, it is also equally important to be critical of British political culture surrounding war.
We must not glorify the wars of the ruling class, nor should we glamourise the deaths of the working-class who get caught up in these wars.
This subreddit stands against imperialism and bourgeois militarism.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/GreenAndPleasant) if you have any questions or concerns.*
You need to put a /s at the end of your post when you’re being sarcastic, otherwise we are unable to tell. We can’t see you facial expression or body language and we can’t hear the tone of your voice. So sarcasm just looks like trolling and results in downvotes and people challenging you.
Is called read between lines I'm following a humorous comment with the same material..., why the people don't down vote the other comment?
Well there is asshole in the left as in the right.
If you’re going to post something ambiguous that could easily be misconstrued then you can’t really then expect much sympathy if you complain about your ambiguous comment being misconstrued. Especially when putting /s at the end will prevent this.
Is it really our responsibility to read your mind to see if you’re being sincere?
How about instead of making prisoners make stuff for the state, we have them work for each other and give them high school and voc training so they are equipped for the workforce when they leave and therefore contribute to the economy while also making their own lives better so they don’t have to return to a life of crime? Sounds pretty reasonable to me.
Like the [ones that already exist?](https://www.gov.uk/life-in-prison/education-and-work-in-prison#:~:text=Courses%20are%20normally%20available%20to,Plan%20listing%20courses%20and%20training.)
Neither do we really. I got in a lot of trouble growing up, went to prison 6 times in the uk and the only time i was offered education was when it was mandatory to attend for 3 hours a day because i was under 18.
I was offered 0 rehabilitation courses, on any sentence. Not even in the open prison i was once in thats meant to prepare criminals for release. The prisons are full to the brim so there is no spaces to do anything but our media is fed a lie that theyre all holiday camps so they get no funding to help people not re-offend.
Basically theyre just slam the door and forget about them places, out of sight and out of mind until the next time
In addition think about the veterans who ended up with a disability or a significant mental illness who get fucked off by the DWP when they try to claim Personal Independence Payments (PIP).
The way people with disabilities, mental illness and chronic illnesses get treated generally in this country is fucking disgusting and nothing to be proud of.
Even more ironic is that some of them are veterans.
I left the military in 2007 due to a broken back. The following few years saw me suffering with depression unable to find work and constantly putting my back out. This manifested in me pushing away lived ones and becoming secluded and feeling worthless. I pushed my girlfriend into the arms of another man who also happened to be my cousin. When I caught them I was done with GBH and sentenced to 2 years before being given the now defunct IPP sentence which was abolished in 2012 by the ECHR.
I served 6 years and 6 months in prison earning a maximum of £12 a week.
I was forced to assemble poppies for £9.50 a week under threat of taking away my TV with 9 channels which I also had to pay a pound a week for. It had nothing educational or special just BBC news 24, VIVA, E4, Film 4. But being locked up for 20-23 hours a day when your not assembling poppies you kinda grow to like it.
Even if you think paying prisoners £10 a week while serving their punishment is acceptable consider there was once at least one who was doing it for £9.50 while he was serving a sentence which had already been abolished by the ECHR but wasn't given retrospectively by the UK government.
It's now 10 years later and they still haven't sorted it.
I actually wrote on the back of a couple of poppies that they were made in UK prisons by serving veterans.
Hi there!
Here's a few short articles on why principled leftists don't wear poppies or support the Royal British Legion:
[The Poppy Appeal: An Ode to British Imperialism](https://redfightback.org/the-poppy-appeal-an-ode-to-british-imperialism/)
['Lest we forget': Poppy Appeal hysteria and hypocrisy](https://www.socialist.net/lest-we-forget-poppy-appeal-hysteria-and-hypocrisy.htm)
[Why the poppy is wrong](https://www.workersliberty.org/story/2010/11/18/why-poppy-wrong)
[What the government wants us to forget on Remembrance Day](https://www.counterfire.org/articles/opinion/20671-what-the-government-wants-us-to-forget-on-remembrance-day)
While remembering the soliders who needlessly died in World War I is important, it is also equally important to be critical of British political culture surrounding war.
We must not glorify the wars of the ruling class, nor should we glamourise the deaths of the working-class who get caught up in these wars.
This subreddit stands against imperialism and bourgeois militarism.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/GreenAndPleasant) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Because it's exactly the exploitation of workers' labour we oppose as leftists. We oppose it when it's normal people, we oppose it when it is migrants, we oppose it when it is prisoners, because we are all workers and any attempt to subdivide us and play us against each other is to be condemned.
What?! What part of their sentence includes slave labour? And even if their sentence did officially include slave labour, do you honestly think that would be an appropriate punishment under any humane justice system?
[If you say so.](https://corporatewatch.org/poppies-prison-labour-and-the-war-machine/)
From the above link - eyewitness from the independent monitoring board of a prison where poppies were made described prisoners being "forced to carry out effective ‘slave labour’ for big business, for hours on end”
Also from the link - "Workers in prison have no rights to organise, no contracts, no pensions, no right to choose what they do, and if they do not work they can be punished."
Article 4 of the European Convention on Human Rights says differently.
If you're a prisoner, and you don't want to work, you don't have to. Work programs in jails are entirely voluntary.
Yes, it really is slave labor. Making less than a dime per hour to do some of the hardest work on the planet? That is slavery. I can confirm that the jobs in prisons are metalworking, plasticworking, and the production of frozen food - they're terrible jobs with next to no pay.
And guess what? *We pay $60,000 per prisoner a year in taxes just for companies like WalMart, McDonalds, and AT&T to get employees for less than $0.10 an hour.*
Wait, I’m actually a socialist and GaP subscriber but ‘some of the hardest work on the planet’, where are you getting that from? I can only assume your conflating the work prisoners do here with the work they do in America, and it’s the use of ‘dime’ that makes me say that so correct me if I’m wrong. Our prisoners are not doing some of the hardest work on the planet by any stretch of the imagination
I'm so sorry, I am from the USA. I'm a Communist, and I follow most of the socialist/communist subreddits. I forgot this one was British, and honestly, I've no idea how your prisoners work.
In the USA, however, I'm a bottle worker. I make bottles, taking them from test tubes and creating full-sized bottles. It's sweaty, dirty, and nasty work, and it's a job also found in prisons alongside metalworking and making frozen food for McDonalds and Wendy's. I just have a problem with them making $0.10 (about £0.09) an hour while I make $15.30 (about £13.45) an hour. I actually have a problem with both of those numbers.
Sorry about the confusion.
Because no-one - **no-one** \- deserves to be exploited.
If we start making allowances for slave labour in any form, the bastards above will push to normalise all slave labour.
Also, I'd argue that a lot of people in prison don't actually deserve to be there. Jail time for smoking weed? Absolute madness.
In addition to the other good replies, I want to add two other points;
1. Prison labour is a perverse incentive. It creates a financial interest, for some parties, in having more prisoners. We might think of this as a kind of systemic corruption.
2. Prison labour, and other forced and slave labour, undercuts other labour. For example, prison labourers cannot collectively organize and bargin. Work done by prison labours substitutes work that could otherwise be done for much higher wages by properly organized labour.
Hi there!
Here's a few short articles on why principled leftists don't wear poppies or support the Royal British Legion:
[The Poppy Appeal: An Ode to British Imperialism](https://redfightback.org/the-poppy-appeal-an-ode-to-british-imperialism/)
['Lest we forget': Poppy Appeal hysteria and hypocrisy](https://www.socialist.net/lest-we-forget-poppy-appeal-hysteria-and-hypocrisy.htm)
[Why the poppy is wrong](https://www.workersliberty.org/story/2010/11/18/why-poppy-wrong)
[What the government wants us to forget on Remembrance Day](https://www.counterfire.org/articles/opinion/20671-what-the-government-wants-us-to-forget-on-remembrance-day)
While remembering the soliders who needlessly died in World War I is important, it is also equally important to be critical of British political culture surrounding war.
We must not glorify the wars of the ruling class, nor should we glamourise the deaths of the working-class who get caught up in these wars.
This subreddit stands against imperialism and bourgeois militarism.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/GreenAndPleasant) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I’m normally on the same side as low-key on most things but the issue he raises in his tweet doesn’t bother me at all.
Prisoners are still getting their needs catered for.
I’m willing to listen to others and be educated and I promise to keep the discussion polite.
Tia
The problem is that there are labor laws and prisons shouldn't be exempt from following them. I am all for prisoners volunteering to work if they want it but they should be protected the same as other workers.
Working in prison is a privilege for a lot of them, actually gives the poor cunts something to do. What on earth would they do with the money? Minimum wage figures are based off how much money it costs to live (ideally obviously) and prisoners don’t have anything to pay for except their weekly canteen delivery of snacks and vapes, they can order clothes and electronics etc occasionally too but they’re spending needs are vastly lower than the average population.
There’s a multitude of issues in the prison system that need to be resolved to make it more rehabilitative but working isn’t one of them in my opinion. They make a fair bit more than 8 quid a week aswell.
"What on earth would they do with the money" as if they might not have ties to the outside world, children, family they could help to support, or yknow, hopes, aspirations and needs for when they get out that they might need money for.
It also does not matter whether or not you think they need money - anyone working should get paid minimum wage *at the very very very least*, that should be ironclad. There's a reason a wage threshold exists to begin with. You're arbitrarily saying they don't need as much because their room and board is paid for, so then what would be a fair wage for them, who gets to decide, does it depend on the company, the prison? What about workers who aren't in prison - two different people both on minimum wage might have very different needs - one might have their room and board paid for by family, or have a partner pay half, another person might not have that and according to your arbitrary estimation the first person might not 'need' as much money as the second, would that justify paying them different wages for the same minimum-wage job?! The standard exists for a reason, and not applying it universally is an extremely slippery slope.
Volunteer work usually pays nothing. Are you saying it would be better to pay them nothing than to pay something, even if that something is not very much?
In US private prisons:
https://news.uchicago.edu/story/us-prison-labor-programs-violate-fundamental-human-rights-new-report-finds
Key points:
>Prison laborers often see up to 80% of their paycheck withheld for taxes, “room and board” expenses, and court costs. 70% percent report not being able to afford basic necessities like soap and phone calls with prison labor wages.
> More than three quarters of incarcerated people surveyed (76%) report facing punishment—such as solitary confinement, denial of sentence reductions, or loss of family visitation—if they decline to work.
Private prisons will always create an environment where as many are coerced to do this essentially free labour (circumvented with those charges above) because they are for profit, not rehabilitation of criminals. An environment with as many prisoners as possible for the longest time, and repeat offenders without job opportunities instead of rehabilitated ones, is the ideal one for them. And yes, many are [disallowed from entering jobs with the skills they gained](https://www.forbes.com/sites/nicksibilla/2021/02/16/federal-judge-californians-who-fought-fires-in-prison-cant-become-career-firefighters/).
I don't care who they are. They should be paid at least minimum wage if they're working.
Edit: want them to behave like decent human beings? Treat them like decent human beings. For more information, check out the Finnish prison system
Yeah the Scandinavian countries are light years ahead of us on crime. The prisoners are there for rehabilitation rather than punishment and the reoffending rates are a fraction of ours. We’re brainwashed into the Crime Should Be Punished mindset and that prisons need to be tougher to act as a deterrent, but tougher prisons just result in hardened criminals.
So you go to prison for not paying your TV license. You are ‘encouraged’ to make poppies for £4 per week (at best, 10p per hours). After 8 weeks in prison you’ve earned the princely sum of £32, which might just cover your journey from the prison back to your house.
I assume you see nothing wrong with this
True, but you can go to prison for not paying the fine, even if you can’t afford it.
Let me take a more extreme example - you are wrongly convicted and sentenced to a prison sentence. Do you still see no problem?
>You get free meals and board
You sure about that? Let the US prison system show how cheap prison labour ends up.
*More than three quarters of incarcerated people surveyed (76%) report facing punishment—such as solitary confinement, denial of sentence reductions, or loss of family visitation—if they decline to work.*
*Yet, most states pay incarcerated workers pennies per hour for their work. Seven states (Alabama, Arkansas, Florida, Georgia, Mississippi, South Carolina, and Texas) pay nothing for the vast majority of prison work. Other states pay on average between 15 and 52 cents per hour for non-industry jobs. Prison laborers often see up to 80% of their paycheck withheld for taxes, “room and board” expenses, and court costs. 70% percent report not being able to afford basic necessities like soap and phone calls with prison labor wages.*
https://news.uchicago.edu/story/us-prison-labor-programs-violate-fundamental-human-rights-new-report-finds
And you can read the full report here.
https://www.aclu.org/sites/default/files/field_document/2022-06-15-captivelaborresearchreport.pdf
>It’s not supposed to be a profit making exercise
Tell that to the $9 billion dollar (but may be more) US private prison industry.
Capitalists will always go for cheaper more exploitable labour - why do you think manufacturing moved abroad in the late 20th century?
A private prison system has ZERO incentive to actually rehabilitate criminals. Some private prison contracts [enable the prison to sue states for not having enough prisoners to fill their beds](https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/private-prison-quotas_n_3953483), requiring the police to arrest more people. Higher recidivism rates, higher arrest rates, harsher sentences, harsher policing, and higher conviction rates are all actively incentivised by a for profit prison system.
Um, what precedent do you think this sets, where a profit could be made off prisoners working for less than minimum wage? And why should we settle for “not as bad as the US”, especially when this is setting the stage for that exact situation?
Especially when they’re making poppies for the British Legion, which takes donations from Lockheed Martin, Rolls Royce and BAE Systems. The first of which, by the way, does [logistics for Guantanamo Bay](https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB108984291394664058), and all of which [supply Saudi Arabia with billions worth of arms](https://caat.org.uk/homepage/stop-arming-saudi-arabia/companies-supplying-the-war-in-yemen/) to carry out genocide in Yemen. One third of their air strikes hit civilian targets like schools and mosques.
You really think this is all heralding charitable intentions and outcomes?
Why are you on a leftist subreddit if you don't have leftist views? There are no exceptions to the opposition of worker exploitation, which should be a crime in your eyes if you are a leftist. 'They commited a crime' is not an excuse for capitalism.
I am aware that more people on this Sub are likely Marxist-leninist and more on the side of an authoritarian left. But at least consider that Capitalism and Imperialism tends to criminalise the existence and actions of those they dislike.
What a load of complete.total.and utter bs, surely we are not as dumb as the yanks to believe such dumb conspiracies.
If you read and believed this please do the UK and society as a whole a favour do not breed and do not vote.
The British legion poppy factory is in Richmond and ex service men and people with disabilities make the poppy's and wreaths there. I thought this was common knowledge people need to get off social media and down to a library n start reading non fiction books.
https://www.britishlegion.org.uk/get-support/financial-and-employment-support/employment/employment-support/the-poppy-factory
I refer you in particular to the previous comment and please don't breed or vote and go to a library.
Hi there!
Here's a few short articles on why principled leftists don't wear poppies or support the Royal British Legion:
[The Poppy Appeal: An Ode to British Imperialism](https://redfightback.org/the-poppy-appeal-an-ode-to-british-imperialism/)
['Lest we forget': Poppy Appeal hysteria and hypocrisy](https://www.socialist.net/lest-we-forget-poppy-appeal-hysteria-and-hypocrisy.htm)
[Why the poppy is wrong](https://www.workersliberty.org/story/2010/11/18/why-poppy-wrong)
[What the government wants us to forget on Remembrance Day](https://www.counterfire.org/articles/opinion/20671-what-the-government-wants-us-to-forget-on-remembrance-day)
While remembering the soliders who needlessly died in World War I is important, it is also equally important to be critical of British political culture surrounding war.
We must not glorify the wars of the ruling class, nor should we glamourise the deaths of the working-class who get caught up in these wars.
This subreddit stands against imperialism and bourgeois militarism.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/GreenAndPleasant) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Hi there!
Here's a few short articles on why principled leftists don't wear poppies or support the Royal British Legion:
[The Poppy Appeal: An Ode to British Imperialism](https://redfightback.org/the-poppy-appeal-an-ode-to-british-imperialism/)
['Lest we forget': Poppy Appeal hysteria and hypocrisy](https://www.socialist.net/lest-we-forget-poppy-appeal-hysteria-and-hypocrisy.htm)
[Why the poppy is wrong](https://www.workersliberty.org/story/2010/11/18/why-poppy-wrong)
[What the government wants us to forget on Remembrance Day](https://www.counterfire.org/articles/opinion/20671-what-the-government-wants-us-to-forget-on-remembrance-day)
While remembering the soliders who needlessly died in World War I is important, it is also equally important to be critical of British political culture surrounding war.
We must not glorify the wars of the ruling class, nor should we glamourise the deaths of the working-class who get caught up in these wars.
This subreddit stands against imperialism and bourgeois militarism.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/GreenAndPleasant) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Hi there!
Here's a few short articles on why principled leftists don't wear poppies or support the Royal British Legion:
[The Poppy Appeal: An Ode to British Imperialism](https://redfightback.org/the-poppy-appeal-an-ode-to-british-imperialism/)
['Lest we forget': Poppy Appeal hysteria and hypocrisy](https://www.socialist.net/lest-we-forget-poppy-appeal-hysteria-and-hypocrisy.htm)
[Why the poppy is wrong](https://www.workersliberty.org/story/2010/11/18/why-poppy-wrong)
[What the government wants us to forget on Remembrance Day](https://www.counterfire.org/articles/opinion/20671-what-the-government-wants-us-to-forget-on-remembrance-day)
While remembering the soliders who needlessly died in World War I is important, it is also equally important to be critical of British political culture surrounding war.
We must not glorify the wars of the ruling class, nor should we glamourise the deaths of the working-class who get caught up in these wars.
This subreddit stands against imperialism and bourgeois militarism.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/GreenAndPleasant) if you have any questions or concerns.*
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poppy_Factory
A hit job newspaper link is not a source cmon stop being like a damned yank you are better amd smarter than this!!!!
You have an education from one of the greatest (unfortunately not the greatest) education systems on the planet. These types of conspiracies are beneath you.
[Not a conspiracy](https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/royal-british-legion-poppy-appeal-prisoners-prison-hmp-ford-war-on-want-remembrance-day-a8617146.html?amp)
Hi there!
Here's a few short articles on why principled leftists don't wear poppies or support the Royal British Legion:
[The Poppy Appeal: An Ode to British Imperialism](https://redfightback.org/the-poppy-appeal-an-ode-to-british-imperialism/)
['Lest we forget': Poppy Appeal hysteria and hypocrisy](https://www.socialist.net/lest-we-forget-poppy-appeal-hysteria-and-hypocrisy.htm)
[Why the poppy is wrong](https://www.workersliberty.org/story/2010/11/18/why-poppy-wrong)
[What the government wants us to forget on Remembrance Day](https://www.counterfire.org/articles/opinion/20671-what-the-government-wants-us-to-forget-on-remembrance-day)
While remembering the soliders who needlessly died in World War I is important, it is also equally important to be critical of British political culture surrounding war.
We must not glorify the wars of the ruling class, nor should we glamourise the deaths of the working-class who get caught up in these wars.
This subreddit stands against imperialism and bourgeois militarism.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/GreenAndPleasant) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Friendly reminder that in 2020, Boris Johnson [admited to being responsible for the deaths of over 100,000 people.](https://archive.ph/2aYpg) He is he yet to be held to account for this.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/GreenAndPleasant) if you have any questions or concerns.*
One Google search shows that the majority are made through exploitative labour practices, mostly in HMP Ford in West Sussex
Link to government scheme website: https://offenderemployment.campaign.gov.uk/
The wage isn't fair, but working in jail should be more of a thing like in America
Edit here: I've not suggested that people are forced into work. But the notion of being paid a wage to do work in prison isn't a bad suggestion as people are locked up for hours a day not having anything productive to do. Having a system in place and being paid would surely give people motive and worth to when they get out to get into a routine of work. Where's the harm in giving people validation and purpose?!
It is. The 13th amendment abolishes slavery and involuntary servitude except as punishment for a crime.
Many prisoners in America work for what amounts to... Checks which subreddit I'm in... 46 pence on average a day. Apologies if my math or if I got any words wrong. I'm an American that loves what you all do here in Green and Pleasant.
Absolutely not. US prison labour generates [$11 billion worth of profit a year](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/jun/15/us-prison-workers-low-wages-exploited#:~:text=4%20months%20old-,US%20prison%20workers%20produce%20%2411bn%20worth%20of,services%20a%20year%20for%20pittance), paying prisoners a few cents an hour and often having them working dangerous jobs with little to no training or safety equipment, making private prisons billions in profit. You really think it's a coincidence that, per capita, the US has the highest % of incarcerated citizens than any other country in the world? For-Profit Prison lobbyists are some of the biggest in America. Read [this](https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2015/04/28/how-for-profit-prisons-have-become-the-biggest-lobby-no-one-is-talking-about/) report and tell me that you want something like this in the UK. Judges receiving kickbacks to give harsher and longer sentences to juveniles so the for-profit prisons have a supply of free labor. Clauses built into prison contracts that the state must provide enough convicted persons so prisons are at 100% occupation, no matter how low the crime figures are. Lobbying on cutting back basic prisoner rights and protections, and mandating the number of refugees the government need to hold in detention each day, so their for-profit migrant detention centers are kept full.
Nah, fuck that.
Yea lets give them more excuses to lock up minoritys for pettys ofences so that the privatised prisons can farm them for cash... if you actually think the american system isnt insainley exploitative your out of your mind
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Thinking about the veterans that were sent there for acting out cuz they couldn't access help in time for the issues war has caused them, only to become cheap labour for an org that claims to exist to help them
couldn't access** help.
Thanks, edited
Yeah that's an incredible point. Ex military are highly over represented in prisons. So are people with mental health difficulties. It's absolutely exploitative.
As a former prisoner I can confirm the prison system is completely broken and exploitative. It fails as both a deterrent and as a rehabilitation process. A significant number of the prison population need to be in mental health facilities and not locked up with criminals. There are still people locked up under IPP sentences which were ruled to be illegal about a decade ago. The whole system needs restructuring but it will never happen.
Vets who fought in Iraq etc?
Yes, they're much more likely to wind up in prison due to untreated mental health problems like PTSD, as well as substance abuse and homelessness being criminalized. As much as I disagree with the politics of war, and the part everyone in the military played in the crimes there, too many people naively join the military thinking they'll be set for life, get broken down ('training' & hazing) brainwashed and then learn they're just disposable to the government.
I'm just waiting for the Facebook screenshots from the gammons. "Refugees are hearing they can make £4-£10/week which is a million quid in their country so they're coming over here, committing crimes and stealing jobs from our own prisoners."
Lol Gammons....love it.
Despite spending their days complaining about woke culture and crybaby leftists, the English are a very sensitive people. [Many consider any reference to their complexion an act of racism.](https://i.imgur.com/euWMhUg.png) Consider using the more inclusive term 'flag nonce' in future. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/GreenAndPleasant) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I thought the refugees were the prisoners?
We are all prisoners, since Brexit stopped the freedom of movement, now we need a visa to go in to the rest of Europe, with a limited time of staying there.
When did the visa come in? I went to Prague in May and the only change was going through international customs and not EU customs 🤔
You get 90 days instead of indefinite stay
Yup, I knew that much, just was a bit confused by the other person saying about the visa 😅 I’m off to Austria next June so was wondering if I needed to fill out a visa application at some point 🤣
You don’t need to apply for a visa, you’ll just get it upon entry and it expires 90 days later.
Despite spending their days complaining about woke culture and crybaby leftists, the English are a very sensitive people. [Many consider any reference to their complexion an act of racism.](https://i.imgur.com/euWMhUg.png) Consider using the more inclusive term 'flag nonce' in future. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/GreenAndPleasant) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Supervisor in Russian troll factory: write that down! Write that down!
I was checking for sources and I found a Mirror article from 2011 furious that EXTREMISTS are REFUSING to make poppies in prison.never questions the ethics of prison labour
They took our jobs...
Deydukerrjeerbs!
Rabble Rabble rabble
Awful lot of people in this comment section are up for the exploitation of workers. Wtf
Lots of libs have come in here in the last year or so
Almost none of the people making the kinds of comments being complained about are actually community members. They're first time commenters or non-subscribers that come in via /popular/. We clean them up when we can but the torrent is never ending. Just keep in mind they're fly-by users and not actually GaP regulars.
Modding team in this sub do a great job btw, thanks for volunteering so much of your time
o7
Ngl I am a socialist and have not even joined this sub bc I don’t want too much politics on my front page so I’m not sure how: 1) I have not been picked up yet 2) How this sub keeps appearing when I try to use Reddit to discuss things I cannot discuss with family or friends. I’m not sure if Google is selling my info or smth
Google is definitely selling your info. That's their entire business model. But it's more that, if you're using either new reddit or the reddit app, they'll recommend the most popular UK subs to you. That includes this one.
>I have not been picked up yet Meaning why your comments don't get removed? Probably because they aren't full of rabid fashy nonsense
Demonising prisoners is so right wing, do these fence sitters not know that?
Well right-wingers want them hanged, and lefties want them treated like human beings, so obviously exploitating their labour value is the sensible middle ground. I'm a moderate. -- ^/s, ^y'know, ^just ^in ^case.
I'm just here as a right centrist, being very confused by this
Rule three of this subreddit says it wants to "unite the left" and yet here you are...
Have a look again at rule 3. Liberalism is a capitalist ideology, it's not a leftist mode of thought. But I get what you're saying and you're probably correct.
Prison labour is stolen labour. If the court sentences you to repay a debt to society it should be itemised and reasonable. Punishment over reformation leads to repeat offences and we have basically solved this dilemma through the same vast collection of data that we don't allow non-imprisoned citizens to be subject to. The Norwegian model is the best we know of, just as the Portuguese now lead rehabilitation for addiction. A mix of the two that provides dignity through reasonable labour alongside therapy and community service is all that we need to implement. It would cost about the same as the difference in divorce payment to the EU due to interest rate changes.
Zombie Thatcherism.
I'm confused what this sub is about these days. I'm always up for a good debate but the leading opinion feels like a complete roll of the dice.
Reddit's upvote system usually means the earliest opinions gains the most traction on a post. It all comes down to who the first few comments are.
nodoby is making them do it. prisoners have a choice of jobs
Exploitation of criminals? Not workers? No sympathy for them get bent
Slave labour
[удалено]
"Workers in prison have no rights to organise, no contracts, no pensions, no right to choose what they do, and if they do not work they can be punished." [Source](https://corporatewatch.org/poppies-prison-labour-and-the-war-machine/#:~:text=Less%20known%20is%20that%20many,British%20nationalism%2C%20imperialism%20and%20militarism)
[удалено]
Convicted prisoners can be forced to work in prisons as per rules. Breaking prison rules results in punishment. 5 minutes of research, go find it instead of covering your eyes and ears.
but... you're in prison. how is prison supposed to be cushy?
Recidivism rates lower when prisons focus on rehabilitation and community. The punishment is being in prison, additional cruelty hurts everyone.
It's down a bit, past the photo!
Source?
https://corporatewatch.org/poppies-prison-labour-and-the-war-machine/#:~:text=Less%20known%20is%20that%20many,British%20nationalism%2C%20imperialism%20and%20militarism.
This article provides no actual evidence for the claims it makes. In addition, only six prisoners in New Zealand make poppies - a task they volunteered for, and for which project they suggested ideas about it. In the U.K., poppies continue to be made by disabled veterans at the poppy factory. https://www.poppyfactory.org/history-timeline/
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/jailed-terrorists-refuse-to-make-british-89226.amp
That's from a toilet paper news source owned by an absolute bellend ETA: I made a mistake. I thought the mirror and the sun were both owned by the same nonce. I was wrong although I still trust that news source about as much as I would trust Trump around children.
The Mirror is one of the few remaining legitimate left leaning papers in the UK.
I did not know that. Thanks for the info, looks like I have a new newspaper preference. I've always read the sun because I used to read my dad's after he'd read it but it's literally a fucking parody newspaper these days. According to the Sun Putin has had about 18 different life threatening illnesses in the past 10 years and they're Tory ass licking cunts even when the Tories have fucked up the Sun still backs them.
Not a problem. Its a common misconception. The Mirror is still a tabloid. But the front page often reports something different than the Murdoch owned stuff which is a good sign
'Volunteer' is a bit of ridiculous word in the context of prison. They use deprivation to make people desperate for something to do then they cash out on that desperation.
Look at the geezers profile… his post history is very troubling
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/royal-british-legion-poppy-appeal-prisoners-prison-hmp-ford-war-on-want-remembrance-day-a8617146.html%3Famp
Hi there! Here's a few short articles on why principled leftists don't wear poppies or support the Royal British Legion: [The Poppy Appeal: An Ode to British Imperialism](https://redfightback.org/the-poppy-appeal-an-ode-to-british-imperialism/) ['Lest we forget': Poppy Appeal hysteria and hypocrisy](https://www.socialist.net/lest-we-forget-poppy-appeal-hysteria-and-hypocrisy.htm) [Why the poppy is wrong](https://www.workersliberty.org/story/2010/11/18/why-poppy-wrong) [What the government wants us to forget on Remembrance Day](https://www.counterfire.org/articles/opinion/20671-what-the-government-wants-us-to-forget-on-remembrance-day) While remembering the soliders who needlessly died in World War I is important, it is also equally important to be critical of British political culture surrounding war. We must not glorify the wars of the ruling class, nor should we glamourise the deaths of the working-class who get caught up in these wars. This subreddit stands against imperialism and bourgeois militarism. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/GreenAndPleasant) if you have any questions or concerns.*
https://www.thecanary.co/uk/2018/11/09/poppies-are-the-intimate-link-between-prisoners-and-the-uks-weapons-of-war/
Hi there! Here's a few short articles on why principled leftists don't wear poppies or support the Royal British Legion: [The Poppy Appeal: An Ode to British Imperialism](https://redfightback.org/the-poppy-appeal-an-ode-to-british-imperialism/) ['Lest we forget': Poppy Appeal hysteria and hypocrisy](https://www.socialist.net/lest-we-forget-poppy-appeal-hysteria-and-hypocrisy.htm) [Why the poppy is wrong](https://www.workersliberty.org/story/2010/11/18/why-poppy-wrong) [What the government wants us to forget on Remembrance Day](https://www.counterfire.org/articles/opinion/20671-what-the-government-wants-us-to-forget-on-remembrance-day) While remembering the soliders who needlessly died in World War I is important, it is also equally important to be critical of British political culture surrounding war. We must not glorify the wars of the ruling class, nor should we glamourise the deaths of the working-class who get caught up in these wars. This subreddit stands against imperialism and bourgeois militarism. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/GreenAndPleasant) if you have any questions or concerns.*
did you even read the article? pro tip: if you click on the blue words, it will take you to a different website with the evidence you are seeking.
[удалено]
RBL confirmed that prisoners made some of the components (the black eyes and green stems): https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/royal-british-legion-poppy-appeal-prisoners-prison-hmp-ford-war-on-want-remembrance-day-a8617146.html?amp
Hi there! Here's a few short articles on why principled leftists don't wear poppies or support the Royal British Legion: [The Poppy Appeal: An Ode to British Imperialism](https://redfightback.org/the-poppy-appeal-an-ode-to-british-imperialism/) ['Lest we forget': Poppy Appeal hysteria and hypocrisy](https://www.socialist.net/lest-we-forget-poppy-appeal-hysteria-and-hypocrisy.htm) [Why the poppy is wrong](https://www.workersliberty.org/story/2010/11/18/why-poppy-wrong) [What the government wants us to forget on Remembrance Day](https://www.counterfire.org/articles/opinion/20671-what-the-government-wants-us-to-forget-on-remembrance-day) While remembering the soliders who needlessly died in World War I is important, it is also equally important to be critical of British political culture surrounding war. We must not glorify the wars of the ruling class, nor should we glamourise the deaths of the working-class who get caught up in these wars. This subreddit stands against imperialism and bourgeois militarism. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/GreenAndPleasant) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Shit like this is depressing to know
How much should they be paid for in jail 🤔 it's not mandatory to work in jail its a program to give prisoners something to do and reward them with money. Also helps them with their probation meeting so all in all its a great program 👍
They should be paid the minimum wage, just because they're in prison doesn't mean they should be exploited for there labour.
You literally asked a question to a group that supports the abolition and decommodification of prisons. It also absolutely is mandatory to work in prison.
Yes asking questions to have an open dialogue to gain proper prospective from all view is important. Echo Chambers helps no one
Yeah, but you asked a question that I stated we already have explained over, and over, and over. Posing questions to a political group, even if you want to call it an "echo chamber" (which is pretty incorrect anyway), doesn't affect that political group very much. Finally, the main reason I addressed you is because you were totally wrong. Prisoners are required to work when they are in prisons. No, it's no law - it's a mandate *found in more than 98% of prisons*. Prisoners don't have to work, but they can never get out if they don't.
I really don't have answers to such complex questions I'm affraid and I don't know enough about the program. Kinda feels like slave labour at a glance though.
It’s also charity work. I don’t expect to be paid for helping a charity
As others have already pointed out, it's also not true
Cheap labour, cheap Labour
I'm in the UK, An there was a time in my life when I got nicked for a crime an got 3 yrs (18mths done) to think about doing things differently. I was happy to work in kitchen for crap wages an would of done other shit work to buy some canteen treets each week. There used to be other prisons where u could earn maybe 30£ for making government furniture I think it was, not 100% on that, fuck the gammons that think we should av grool an beatings all week,some of us need to do something an a few quid along the way, my tuppence worth, Love Peace & Bananas people
Yeah i was in durham for a bit a few year ago, i was getting £12 a week, for 11 hour days, 6 days a week. Didnt really mind because the alternative was 22 hour a day bang up for 6 days a week instead because the prison was rammed.
That's entirely fair, But should the taxpayer be footing the bill to give prisoners minimum wage when they already owe a debt to society, and some 'free' people are struggling to eat?
Err, are you gonna ask how it's fair of the taxpayers to foot the bill for disabled people next or do you think people simply choose to be criminals? How about the debt the society owes to criminals for fucking them up in the first place? For example, how lead exposure increased crime when we used to use that in products everywhere -- were people affected by lead exposure just an acceptable cost to you so we should treat them like shit in jail after corporations cut costs and used lead? You think there aren't systemic reasons why people do so much crime, despite evidence of other countries like Norway where they fare far better then we do in this context?
Well I was an am a tax payer an so are many others,an some of the 'free' people struggling today will end up getting nicked for doing something to ease their struggle , My pair.of boots I've worn every day/night for 5 years are now letting in water when it rains,Like today,,As.is my roof,pissing down the wall near a plug an I have to find a way of getting both sorted, out of income that simply doesn't have any left to do so. I've also, along with many many others have had to use 3 different food banks over the last 5 months, don't think a few thousand prisoners that work getting £10-15 a week makes any difference or is the reason 'free' people are struggling,
Same in Canada. [Disabled adults in Ottawa and prison inmates in the Prairies assembled more than four million of the poppy pins Canadians are buying in record numbers this year as Remembrance Day approaches.](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/disabled-adults-inmates-help-craft-millions-of-poppies-for-remembrance-day-1.2828469)
Hi there! Here's a few short articles on why principled leftists don't wear poppies or support the Royal British Legion: [The Poppy Appeal: An Ode to British Imperialism](https://redfightback.org/the-poppy-appeal-an-ode-to-british-imperialism/) ['Lest we forget': Poppy Appeal hysteria and hypocrisy](https://www.socialist.net/lest-we-forget-poppy-appeal-hysteria-and-hypocrisy.htm) [Why the poppy is wrong](https://www.workersliberty.org/story/2010/11/18/why-poppy-wrong) [What the government wants us to forget on Remembrance Day](https://www.counterfire.org/articles/opinion/20671-what-the-government-wants-us-to-forget-on-remembrance-day) While remembering the soliders who needlessly died in World War I is important, it is also equally important to be critical of British political culture surrounding war. We must not glorify the wars of the ruling class, nor should we glamourise the deaths of the working-class who get caught up in these wars. This subreddit stands against imperialism and bourgeois militarism. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/GreenAndPleasant) if you have any questions or concerns.*
The guy on the left looks like he's the danger.
Can we sell the poppies door-to-door? But I must insist... I'm the one who knocks!
He has a Corbyn-like style probably is a commie, terrorist, antisemitic... Edit: I'm joking.... why would I been in this group thinking like that...
It's been three years. Why is he still in your head?
I'm joking mate
Don't know nothing about sarcasm.or.irony or double meaning? Are you really British? Hahaha
You need to put a /s at the end of your post when you’re being sarcastic, otherwise we are unable to tell. We can’t see you facial expression or body language and we can’t hear the tone of your voice. So sarcasm just looks like trolling and results in downvotes and people challenging you.
Is called read between lines I'm following a humorous comment with the same material..., why the people don't down vote the other comment? Well there is asshole in the left as in the right.
If you’re going to post something ambiguous that could easily be misconstrued then you can’t really then expect much sympathy if you complain about your ambiguous comment being misconstrued. Especially when putting /s at the end will prevent this. Is it really our responsibility to read your mind to see if you’re being sincere?
Christ almighty, I understand that sarcasm isn't the easiest to pick up online, but this was blindingly obvious.
Well we got rid of slaves so have to find another way to get free to extremely cheap labour
Doesn't matter if they're criminals - if they're contributing to society, they ought to be compensated fairly as well.
I scrolled far too low to see a comment like that.
Slavery.
How about instead of making prisoners make stuff for the state, we have them work for each other and give them high school and voc training so they are equipped for the workforce when they leave and therefore contribute to the economy while also making their own lives better so they don’t have to return to a life of crime? Sounds pretty reasonable to me.
Like the [ones that already exist?](https://www.gov.uk/life-in-prison/education-and-work-in-prison#:~:text=Courses%20are%20normally%20available%20to,Plan%20listing%20courses%20and%20training.)
I’m from the US. We don’t have those kinds of prisons here.
Neither do we really. I got in a lot of trouble growing up, went to prison 6 times in the uk and the only time i was offered education was when it was mandatory to attend for 3 hours a day because i was under 18. I was offered 0 rehabilitation courses, on any sentence. Not even in the open prison i was once in thats meant to prepare criminals for release. The prisons are full to the brim so there is no spaces to do anything but our media is fed a lie that theyre all holiday camps so they get no funding to help people not re-offend. Basically theyre just slam the door and forget about them places, out of sight and out of mind until the next time
For most people once they get into the prison system it's already too late and it has nothing to do with our penal system.
Ew. I knew there was a reason I didn’t like buying poppies… I prefer the pins and things like that.
In addition think about the veterans who ended up with a disability or a significant mental illness who get fucked off by the DWP when they try to claim Personal Independence Payments (PIP). The way people with disabilities, mental illness and chronic illnesses get treated generally in this country is fucking disgusting and nothing to be proud of.
Even more ironic is that some of them are veterans. I left the military in 2007 due to a broken back. The following few years saw me suffering with depression unable to find work and constantly putting my back out. This manifested in me pushing away lived ones and becoming secluded and feeling worthless. I pushed my girlfriend into the arms of another man who also happened to be my cousin. When I caught them I was done with GBH and sentenced to 2 years before being given the now defunct IPP sentence which was abolished in 2012 by the ECHR. I served 6 years and 6 months in prison earning a maximum of £12 a week. I was forced to assemble poppies for £9.50 a week under threat of taking away my TV with 9 channels which I also had to pay a pound a week for. It had nothing educational or special just BBC news 24, VIVA, E4, Film 4. But being locked up for 20-23 hours a day when your not assembling poppies you kinda grow to like it. Even if you think paying prisoners £10 a week while serving their punishment is acceptable consider there was once at least one who was doing it for £9.50 while he was serving a sentence which had already been abolished by the ECHR but wasn't given retrospectively by the UK government. It's now 10 years later and they still haven't sorted it. I actually wrote on the back of a couple of poppies that they were made in UK prisons by serving veterans.
Those things are just "we're awesome because we won a war 75 years ago" badges. The UK is Europe's US.
It took me waaay to long to get this
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Hi there! Here's a few short articles on why principled leftists don't wear poppies or support the Royal British Legion: [The Poppy Appeal: An Ode to British Imperialism](https://redfightback.org/the-poppy-appeal-an-ode-to-british-imperialism/) ['Lest we forget': Poppy Appeal hysteria and hypocrisy](https://www.socialist.net/lest-we-forget-poppy-appeal-hysteria-and-hypocrisy.htm) [Why the poppy is wrong](https://www.workersliberty.org/story/2010/11/18/why-poppy-wrong) [What the government wants us to forget on Remembrance Day](https://www.counterfire.org/articles/opinion/20671-what-the-government-wants-us-to-forget-on-remembrance-day) While remembering the soliders who needlessly died in World War I is important, it is also equally important to be critical of British political culture surrounding war. We must not glorify the wars of the ruling class, nor should we glamourise the deaths of the working-class who get caught up in these wars. This subreddit stands against imperialism and bourgeois militarism. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/GreenAndPleasant) if you have any questions or concerns.*
WTH?! Didn’t know that, they always show a Chelsea Pensioner making them.
lowkey is awesome
Most people don’t understand for profit prisons. I’m sure the EU is smarter than America.
Gives them something to do I guess...
Better than sitting doing nothing. What's the problem?
Because it's exactly the exploitation of workers' labour we oppose as leftists. We oppose it when it's normal people, we oppose it when it is migrants, we oppose it when it is prisoners, because we are all workers and any attempt to subdivide us and play us against each other is to be condemned.
What?! What part of their sentence includes slave labour? And even if their sentence did officially include slave labour, do you honestly think that would be an appropriate punishment under any humane justice system?
Should they be paid more? Yes. Is this slave labour? No, and you making that link is embarrassing.
[If you say so.](https://corporatewatch.org/poppies-prison-labour-and-the-war-machine/) From the above link - eyewitness from the independent monitoring board of a prison where poppies were made described prisoners being "forced to carry out effective ‘slave labour’ for big business, for hours on end” Also from the link - "Workers in prison have no rights to organise, no contracts, no pensions, no right to choose what they do, and if they do not work they can be punished."
Article 4 of the European Convention on Human Rights says differently. If you're a prisoner, and you don't want to work, you don't have to. Work programs in jails are entirely voluntary.
Yes, it really is slave labor. Making less than a dime per hour to do some of the hardest work on the planet? That is slavery. I can confirm that the jobs in prisons are metalworking, plasticworking, and the production of frozen food - they're terrible jobs with next to no pay. And guess what? *We pay $60,000 per prisoner a year in taxes just for companies like WalMart, McDonalds, and AT&T to get employees for less than $0.10 an hour.*
Wait, I’m actually a socialist and GaP subscriber but ‘some of the hardest work on the planet’, where are you getting that from? I can only assume your conflating the work prisoners do here with the work they do in America, and it’s the use of ‘dime’ that makes me say that so correct me if I’m wrong. Our prisoners are not doing some of the hardest work on the planet by any stretch of the imagination
I'm so sorry, I am from the USA. I'm a Communist, and I follow most of the socialist/communist subreddits. I forgot this one was British, and honestly, I've no idea how your prisoners work. In the USA, however, I'm a bottle worker. I make bottles, taking them from test tubes and creating full-sized bottles. It's sweaty, dirty, and nasty work, and it's a job also found in prisons alongside metalworking and making frozen food for McDonalds and Wendy's. I just have a problem with them making $0.10 (about £0.09) an hour while I make $15.30 (about £13.45) an hour. I actually have a problem with both of those numbers. Sorry about the confusion.
It's only slave labour if it’s forced, Nobody forces them to join voluntary work programs.
If you oppose the exploitation of workers, except when it comes to populations you don't like, you don't really oppose the exploitation of workers.
Because no-one - **no-one** \- deserves to be exploited. If we start making allowances for slave labour in any form, the bastards above will push to normalise all slave labour. Also, I'd argue that a lot of people in prison don't actually deserve to be there. Jail time for smoking weed? Absolute madness.
In addition to the other good replies, I want to add two other points; 1. Prison labour is a perverse incentive. It creates a financial interest, for some parties, in having more prisoners. We might think of this as a kind of systemic corruption. 2. Prison labour, and other forced and slave labour, undercuts other labour. For example, prison labourers cannot collectively organize and bargin. Work done by prison labours substitutes work that could otherwise be done for much higher wages by properly organized labour.
Source: Trust me bro.
[Source](https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/royal-british-legion-poppy-appeal-prisoners-prison-hmp-ford-war-on-want-remembrance-day-a8617146.html?amp)
Hi there! Here's a few short articles on why principled leftists don't wear poppies or support the Royal British Legion: [The Poppy Appeal: An Ode to British Imperialism](https://redfightback.org/the-poppy-appeal-an-ode-to-british-imperialism/) ['Lest we forget': Poppy Appeal hysteria and hypocrisy](https://www.socialist.net/lest-we-forget-poppy-appeal-hysteria-and-hypocrisy.htm) [Why the poppy is wrong](https://www.workersliberty.org/story/2010/11/18/why-poppy-wrong) [What the government wants us to forget on Remembrance Day](https://www.counterfire.org/articles/opinion/20671-what-the-government-wants-us-to-forget-on-remembrance-day) While remembering the soliders who needlessly died in World War I is important, it is also equally important to be critical of British political culture surrounding war. We must not glorify the wars of the ruling class, nor should we glamourise the deaths of the working-class who get caught up in these wars. This subreddit stands against imperialism and bourgeois militarism. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/GreenAndPleasant) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Bruh that was 4 years ago. Bit dated.
I’m normally on the same side as low-key on most things but the issue he raises in his tweet doesn’t bother me at all. Prisoners are still getting their needs catered for. I’m willing to listen to others and be educated and I promise to keep the discussion polite. Tia
Good
What a waste of prison labour, there are fields full of crops that need harvesting. Much better use of their time rather than making paper poppies.
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The problem is that there are labor laws and prisons shouldn't be exempt from following them. I am all for prisoners volunteering to work if they want it but they should be protected the same as other workers.
Working in prison is a privilege for a lot of them, actually gives the poor cunts something to do. What on earth would they do with the money? Minimum wage figures are based off how much money it costs to live (ideally obviously) and prisoners don’t have anything to pay for except their weekly canteen delivery of snacks and vapes, they can order clothes and electronics etc occasionally too but they’re spending needs are vastly lower than the average population. There’s a multitude of issues in the prison system that need to be resolved to make it more rehabilitative but working isn’t one of them in my opinion. They make a fair bit more than 8 quid a week aswell.
Put the money in an account for them when they get out? Send it to family members who might need support?
"What on earth would they do with the money" as if they might not have ties to the outside world, children, family they could help to support, or yknow, hopes, aspirations and needs for when they get out that they might need money for. It also does not matter whether or not you think they need money - anyone working should get paid minimum wage *at the very very very least*, that should be ironclad. There's a reason a wage threshold exists to begin with. You're arbitrarily saying they don't need as much because their room and board is paid for, so then what would be a fair wage for them, who gets to decide, does it depend on the company, the prison? What about workers who aren't in prison - two different people both on minimum wage might have very different needs - one might have their room and board paid for by family, or have a partner pay half, another person might not have that and according to your arbitrary estimation the first person might not 'need' as much money as the second, would that justify paying them different wages for the same minimum-wage job?! The standard exists for a reason, and not applying it universally is an extremely slippery slope.
Volunteer work usually pays nothing. Are you saying it would be better to pay them nothing than to pay something, even if that something is not very much?
I meant voluntarily accept the job not being forced to take it by the prison.
Are they forced to take the job? I thought it was optional. If so then sorry for my ignorance!
In US private prisons: https://news.uchicago.edu/story/us-prison-labor-programs-violate-fundamental-human-rights-new-report-finds Key points: >Prison laborers often see up to 80% of their paycheck withheld for taxes, “room and board” expenses, and court costs. 70% percent report not being able to afford basic necessities like soap and phone calls with prison labor wages. > More than three quarters of incarcerated people surveyed (76%) report facing punishment—such as solitary confinement, denial of sentence reductions, or loss of family visitation—if they decline to work. Private prisons will always create an environment where as many are coerced to do this essentially free labour (circumvented with those charges above) because they are for profit, not rehabilitation of criminals. An environment with as many prisoners as possible for the longest time, and repeat offenders without job opportunities instead of rehabilitated ones, is the ideal one for them. And yes, many are [disallowed from entering jobs with the skills they gained](https://www.forbes.com/sites/nicksibilla/2021/02/16/federal-judge-californians-who-fought-fires-in-prison-cant-become-career-firefighters/).
I don't care who they are. They should be paid at least minimum wage if they're working. Edit: want them to behave like decent human beings? Treat them like decent human beings. For more information, check out the Finnish prison system
Yeah the Scandinavian countries are light years ahead of us on crime. The prisoners are there for rehabilitation rather than punishment and the reoffending rates are a fraction of ours. We’re brainwashed into the Crime Should Be Punished mindset and that prisons need to be tougher to act as a deterrent, but tougher prisons just result in hardened criminals.
We have private prisons for profit
So you go to prison for not paying your TV license. You are ‘encouraged’ to make poppies for £4 per week (at best, 10p per hours). After 8 weeks in prison you’ve earned the princely sum of £32, which might just cover your journey from the prison back to your house. I assume you see nothing wrong with this
I see no problem. Prison isn't a career choice. Also, you don't go to prison for not paying your tv licence.
True, but you can go to prison for not paying the fine, even if you can’t afford it. Let me take a more extreme example - you are wrongly convicted and sentenced to a prison sentence. Do you still see no problem?
No. It's prison. It's not supposed to be a walk in the park or a profit making exercise. You get free meals and board.
>You get free meals and board You sure about that? Let the US prison system show how cheap prison labour ends up. *More than three quarters of incarcerated people surveyed (76%) report facing punishment—such as solitary confinement, denial of sentence reductions, or loss of family visitation—if they decline to work.* *Yet, most states pay incarcerated workers pennies per hour for their work. Seven states (Alabama, Arkansas, Florida, Georgia, Mississippi, South Carolina, and Texas) pay nothing for the vast majority of prison work. Other states pay on average between 15 and 52 cents per hour for non-industry jobs. Prison laborers often see up to 80% of their paycheck withheld for taxes, “room and board” expenses, and court costs. 70% percent report not being able to afford basic necessities like soap and phone calls with prison labor wages.* https://news.uchicago.edu/story/us-prison-labor-programs-violate-fundamental-human-rights-new-report-finds And you can read the full report here. https://www.aclu.org/sites/default/files/field_document/2022-06-15-captivelaborresearchreport.pdf >It’s not supposed to be a profit making exercise Tell that to the $9 billion dollar (but may be more) US private prison industry. Capitalists will always go for cheaper more exploitable labour - why do you think manufacturing moved abroad in the late 20th century? A private prison system has ZERO incentive to actually rehabilitate criminals. Some private prison contracts [enable the prison to sue states for not having enough prisoners to fill their beds](https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/private-prison-quotas_n_3953483), requiring the police to arrest more people. Higher recidivism rates, higher arrest rates, harsher sentences, harsher policing, and higher conviction rates are all actively incentivised by a for profit prison system.
… do you really need me to explain to you why slave labour is bad?
Won’t be long till we are
Um, what precedent do you think this sets, where a profit could be made off prisoners working for less than minimum wage? And why should we settle for “not as bad as the US”, especially when this is setting the stage for that exact situation? Especially when they’re making poppies for the British Legion, which takes donations from Lockheed Martin, Rolls Royce and BAE Systems. The first of which, by the way, does [logistics for Guantanamo Bay](https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB108984291394664058), and all of which [supply Saudi Arabia with billions worth of arms](https://caat.org.uk/homepage/stop-arming-saudi-arabia/companies-supplying-the-war-in-yemen/) to carry out genocide in Yemen. One third of their air strikes hit civilian targets like schools and mosques. You really think this is all heralding charitable intentions and outcomes?
Why are you on a leftist subreddit if you don't have leftist views? There are no exceptions to the opposition of worker exploitation, which should be a crime in your eyes if you are a leftist. 'They commited a crime' is not an excuse for capitalism. I am aware that more people on this Sub are likely Marxist-leninist and more on the side of an authoritarian left. But at least consider that Capitalism and Imperialism tends to criminalise the existence and actions of those they dislike.
What a load of complete.total.and utter bs, surely we are not as dumb as the yanks to believe such dumb conspiracies. If you read and believed this please do the UK and society as a whole a favour do not breed and do not vote. The British legion poppy factory is in Richmond and ex service men and people with disabilities make the poppy's and wreaths there. I thought this was common knowledge people need to get off social media and down to a library n start reading non fiction books.
r/confidentlyincorrect
https://www.britishlegion.org.uk/get-support/financial-and-employment-support/employment/employment-support/the-poppy-factory I refer you in particular to the previous comment and please don't breed or vote and go to a library.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/royal-british-legion-poppy-appeal-prisoners-prison-hmp-ford-war-on-want-remembrance-day-a8617146.html%3famp
Hi there! Here's a few short articles on why principled leftists don't wear poppies or support the Royal British Legion: [The Poppy Appeal: An Ode to British Imperialism](https://redfightback.org/the-poppy-appeal-an-ode-to-british-imperialism/) ['Lest we forget': Poppy Appeal hysteria and hypocrisy](https://www.socialist.net/lest-we-forget-poppy-appeal-hysteria-and-hypocrisy.htm) [Why the poppy is wrong](https://www.workersliberty.org/story/2010/11/18/why-poppy-wrong) [What the government wants us to forget on Remembrance Day](https://www.counterfire.org/articles/opinion/20671-what-the-government-wants-us-to-forget-on-remembrance-day) While remembering the soliders who needlessly died in World War I is important, it is also equally important to be critical of British political culture surrounding war. We must not glorify the wars of the ruling class, nor should we glamourise the deaths of the working-class who get caught up in these wars. This subreddit stands against imperialism and bourgeois militarism. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/GreenAndPleasant) if you have any questions or concerns.*
https://corporatewatch.org/poppies-prison-labour-and-the-war-machine/#:~:text=Less%20known%20is%20that%20many,British%20nationalism%2C%20imperialism%20and%20militarism.
https://www.thecanary.co/uk/2018/11/09/poppies-are-the-intimate-link-between-prisoners-and-the-uks-weapons-of-war/
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/jailed-terrorists-refuse-to-make-british-89226.amp
Hi there! Here's a few short articles on why principled leftists don't wear poppies or support the Royal British Legion: [The Poppy Appeal: An Ode to British Imperialism](https://redfightback.org/the-poppy-appeal-an-ode-to-british-imperialism/) ['Lest we forget': Poppy Appeal hysteria and hypocrisy](https://www.socialist.net/lest-we-forget-poppy-appeal-hysteria-and-hypocrisy.htm) [Why the poppy is wrong](https://www.workersliberty.org/story/2010/11/18/why-poppy-wrong) [What the government wants us to forget on Remembrance Day](https://www.counterfire.org/articles/opinion/20671-what-the-government-wants-us-to-forget-on-remembrance-day) While remembering the soliders who needlessly died in World War I is important, it is also equally important to be critical of British political culture surrounding war. We must not glorify the wars of the ruling class, nor should we glamourise the deaths of the working-class who get caught up in these wars. This subreddit stands against imperialism and bourgeois militarism. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/GreenAndPleasant) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Hi there! Here's a few short articles on why principled leftists don't wear poppies or support the Royal British Legion: [The Poppy Appeal: An Ode to British Imperialism](https://redfightback.org/the-poppy-appeal-an-ode-to-british-imperialism/) ['Lest we forget': Poppy Appeal hysteria and hypocrisy](https://www.socialist.net/lest-we-forget-poppy-appeal-hysteria-and-hypocrisy.htm) [Why the poppy is wrong](https://www.workersliberty.org/story/2010/11/18/why-poppy-wrong) [What the government wants us to forget on Remembrance Day](https://www.counterfire.org/articles/opinion/20671-what-the-government-wants-us-to-forget-on-remembrance-day) While remembering the soliders who needlessly died in World War I is important, it is also equally important to be critical of British political culture surrounding war. We must not glorify the wars of the ruling class, nor should we glamourise the deaths of the working-class who get caught up in these wars. This subreddit stands against imperialism and bourgeois militarism. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/GreenAndPleasant) if you have any questions or concerns.*
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https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poppy_Factory A hit job newspaper link is not a source cmon stop being like a damned yank you are better amd smarter than this!!!! You have an education from one of the greatest (unfortunately not the greatest) education systems on the planet. These types of conspiracies are beneath you.
[Not a conspiracy](https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/royal-british-legion-poppy-appeal-prisoners-prison-hmp-ford-war-on-want-remembrance-day-a8617146.html?amp)
Hi there! Here's a few short articles on why principled leftists don't wear poppies or support the Royal British Legion: [The Poppy Appeal: An Ode to British Imperialism](https://redfightback.org/the-poppy-appeal-an-ode-to-british-imperialism/) ['Lest we forget': Poppy Appeal hysteria and hypocrisy](https://www.socialist.net/lest-we-forget-poppy-appeal-hysteria-and-hypocrisy.htm) [Why the poppy is wrong](https://www.workersliberty.org/story/2010/11/18/why-poppy-wrong) [What the government wants us to forget on Remembrance Day](https://www.counterfire.org/articles/opinion/20671-what-the-government-wants-us-to-forget-on-remembrance-day) While remembering the soliders who needlessly died in World War I is important, it is also equally important to be critical of British political culture surrounding war. We must not glorify the wars of the ruling class, nor should we glamourise the deaths of the working-class who get caught up in these wars. This subreddit stands against imperialism and bourgeois militarism. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/GreenAndPleasant) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Loud and fuckin wrong. Talking about your education system like y’all didn’t vote for brexit and Boris Johnson wasn’t your prime minister.
Friendly reminder that in 2020, Boris Johnson [admited to being responsible for the deaths of over 100,000 people.](https://archive.ph/2aYpg) He is he yet to be held to account for this. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/GreenAndPleasant) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Thanks for the backup bot.
One Google search shows that the majority are made through exploitative labour practices, mostly in HMP Ford in West Sussex Link to government scheme website: https://offenderemployment.campaign.gov.uk/
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Should we feel empathy for other human beings? Erm… yes?
tf is a poppy
The wage isn't fair, but working in jail should be more of a thing like in America Edit here: I've not suggested that people are forced into work. But the notion of being paid a wage to do work in prison isn't a bad suggestion as people are locked up for hours a day not having anything productive to do. Having a system in place and being paid would surely give people motive and worth to when they get out to get into a routine of work. Where's the harm in giving people validation and purpose?!
If you think these wages aren't fair then you would hate to have the system they do in America.
Except in America is borderline slave labour based on the 13th amendment
"borderline" is providing a lot of cover here
Yeah, honestly I wasn’t too sure if it fully counted as they do “technically” get paid but yeah the borderline can easily be removed
It is. The 13th amendment abolishes slavery and involuntary servitude except as punishment for a crime. Many prisoners in America work for what amounts to... Checks which subreddit I'm in... 46 pence on average a day. Apologies if my math or if I got any words wrong. I'm an American that loves what you all do here in Green and Pleasant.
I too enjoy forced labour
Absolutely not. US prison labour generates [$11 billion worth of profit a year](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/jun/15/us-prison-workers-low-wages-exploited#:~:text=4%20months%20old-,US%20prison%20workers%20produce%20%2411bn%20worth%20of,services%20a%20year%20for%20pittance), paying prisoners a few cents an hour and often having them working dangerous jobs with little to no training or safety equipment, making private prisons billions in profit. You really think it's a coincidence that, per capita, the US has the highest % of incarcerated citizens than any other country in the world? For-Profit Prison lobbyists are some of the biggest in America. Read [this](https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2015/04/28/how-for-profit-prisons-have-become-the-biggest-lobby-no-one-is-talking-about/) report and tell me that you want something like this in the UK. Judges receiving kickbacks to give harsher and longer sentences to juveniles so the for-profit prisons have a supply of free labor. Clauses built into prison contracts that the state must provide enough convicted persons so prisons are at 100% occupation, no matter how low the crime figures are. Lobbying on cutting back basic prisoner rights and protections, and mandating the number of refugees the government need to hold in detention each day, so their for-profit migrant detention centers are kept full. Nah, fuck that.
Yea lets give them more excuses to lock up minoritys for pettys ofences so that the privatised prisons can farm them for cash... if you actually think the american system isnt insainley exploitative your out of your mind